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Post by Dave on Feb 5, 2020 22:45:19 GMT -5
Is 1948 Israel Prophetic? All Jews and all Christians (except JW – I thought – but now know Ellen White teaches exception also) Consider 1948 Israel to be something like the Fig Tree bearing fruit Consider 1948 Israel as a gathering – from all the foreign nations --The return from Exile was only from one nation Babylon Consider the Magog + Gog Invasion of Israel of Ezk 38 to be a prophetic sign of the End-of-Days Question – has the End-of-Days happened? - We are still here. Jesus said - Mat 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must happen but it is not yet the end. :7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 But all these things are only the beginning of birth pains. IMO – electronic / satellite / media Mat 24:9 Then they will hand you over to persecution and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of My name. 10 And then many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one other. Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring shalom on the earth; I did not come to bring shalom, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.’ 37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me isn’t worthy of Me, and he who loves son or daughter more than Me isn’t worthy of Me. 38 And whoever does not take up his cross and follow after Me isn’t worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. Mat 24:11 Many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. Mat 24:12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. Mat 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Mat 24:14 This Good News of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Mat 24:15 “So when you see ‘the abomination of desolation,’ which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the Holy Place (let the reader understand), - know that the 2nd coming is at hand When? – Jesus also says Mat 24:32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, at the door. 34 Amen, I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things happen. I agree with all of this As for your abomination that causes desolation, this happened when Rome pushed their standards into the temple in AD66, when the temple went up in flames. The Roman Catholics will again plant their standards all over the world, when the One World Government is set up, and all people will follow a universal Sunday Sabbath. That generation long pass away The Armageddon Battle - Ezk 38 – must happen – it is scripture Question – has it happened? (Wiki) - In Ezekiel and the Old Testament Ezekiel's Vision of the Sign "Tau" from Ezekiel IX:2–7.—Mosan champlevé panel, mid-12th century. The Book of Ezekiel records a series of visions received by the prophet Ezekiel, a priest of Solomon's Temple, who was among the captive during the Babylonian exile. The exile, he tells his fellow captives, is God's punishment on Israel for turning away, but God will restore his people to Jerusalem when they return to him.[17] After this message of reassurance, chapters 38–39, the Gog oracle, tell how Gog of Magog and his hordes will threaten the restored Israel but will be destroyed, after which God will establish a new Temple and dwell with his people for a period of lasting peace (chapters 40–48) Magog is easy – all of the cities named – are in Turkey – the head of the Ottoman Empire – Islam Today – Russia is an allied with Turkey – Iran – and the ‘stans’ Gog – is harder – IMO – Iran’s ally – China (not Europe) Why did I say Ottoman Empire = Islam – even Islam says it is Islam and it’s allies Ya'juj Ma'juj (Gog and Magog) - www.discoveringislam.org/gog_magog.htmKoran Surah Al-Anbiya 21: 96 - Allah says in the Qur'an, "When Ya'juj and Ma'juj are let loose (from their Barrier) and they swiftly swarm from every mound..." Question – If Israel’s return to Palestine is NOT a fulfillment of prophesy Then how does Israel get back to Palestine – that is not a prophetic ‘gathering’ And why does Magog and Gog attack – if it is NOT a fulfillment of prophesy |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 18:19:35 GMT -5
God is smart enough to make prophecies have many applications of meanings, and Israel is still loved by GOD even it many of her people depart from GOD. God loves all peoples all over the world. Since Scripture centred first with Israel from Moses time, we can be sure Israel still remains in God's heart.
In the near future when the third temple is built, and the one world government power set up, all the world, except a few, will rally to Israel. The issues of Sabbath Saturday or Sabbath Sunday will have deceptive faces, as it did in Ezekiel's time. While Jews publically worshipped on Saturday Sabbath, in private they face the direction of Sunday Sabbath. In some cultures we would say they were two faced.
Here is the verse:
Eze 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
And as you say this prophecy happens just before the second coming of Christ.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 13, 2020 18:31:29 GMT -5
Just as Christians are still loved by God even tho many are lost
YES! – and End-of-Days scenario must be a global event
Ezk 8 is all about Tammuz and Isthar – YES! – Sunday worship
The Third Temple will be the site of a sacrilegious global worship
For me this will be – a Christian Dec 25th or Easter celebration televised globally
YES! – just as with Jesus – most will miss the event – believers of all faiths will be at a loss
Jews just as in 30 AD – or just as Christians today
Born again humans – (gnosis Christians) regardless of religion will be the raptured
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2020 18:31:43 GMT -5
So we have common theories in our faith to agree Dave. Praise GOD for this.
I hope the 1948 prophecy about Israel works out for you. I respect it too, but we differ in some things.
God bless the light of experience you live by.
Shalom
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Post by rakovsky on Feb 22, 2020 20:46:52 GMT -5
Is 1948 Israel Prophetic?
But it doesn't seem to be Biblically given as an End Times sign. One reason is that the Israeli state defines itself as dedicated to the rabbis, not to all who accept the Tanakh's legitimacy. The Christian Bible focused on the establishment of the heavenly Jerusalem and the spreading of the Christian Church around the world, not on the rabbis and the rabbis' leaders establishing a secular state that matched the teachings of the rabbis. Back in the 1st century when the Christian NT was written, they still had a Judean state with client kings like the Herodians. The Roman province of Judea only ended later, in 135 AD. So the Biblical writers didn't see the existence of a rabbinical state as an end times sign to be expected, because the phenomenon was still in existence when they were writing.All Jews and all Christians (except JW – I thought – but now know Ellen White teaches exception also) Consider 1948 Israel to be something like the Fig Tree bearing fruit |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2020 13:55:45 GMT -5
Well said rakovsky. In our faith, we focus on the new city Jesus is building in heaven, soon to come down near the old Zion on earth. God has not abandoned the Jews or the old city on earth, I am always touched when I keep Sabbath at least 2 hours it is the same Sabbath cycle the old city of Zion also keeps, on a round globe, this is special for me.
Shalom
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Post by rakovsky on Feb 23, 2020 17:12:12 GMT -5
In Paul's teaching, Robertt, religious or spiritual "blindness" happened to the Jews in part, until the fullness of the gentiles came in, and so all Israel will be saved. (It's in the epistle to the Romans, IIRC).
So the Church fathers extrapolated from Paul's statement that the Jews would still remain and not be obliterated. They took Paul's statement about "until the fulness..." etc. to mean that at some point eventually the Jews would accept Christianity.
HOWEVER, the Christian New Testament or the Church fathers don't seem to go beyond this idea as far as special God-given prophesied post-apostolic blessings to the Jews go. For instance, Jesus and the apostles did not teach that the Jews need to overthrow the Romans and achieve full independence from Rome. So there is no dogma in orthodox or NT Christianity that demands that Christians believe that we must support an earthly political state in Judea or Palestine like most "Christian Zionists" support.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 12:44:27 GMT -5
Well said rakovsky. You are right. Perhaps the best verse for our fellow Jews, and how Jesus might save some of them even now, like us Gentiles are verses like these:
Ro 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
This verse suggests we must all become "torah keeping Israelites" whatever people see by this term. In our faith, we say we become "spiritual Jews", whatever that means. Some might say we play "word games" because we don't do Jewish cultural things. Some Jewish cultural things come from traditions outside of the Bible, and my own faith is no better, we too have traditions outside of the Bible. From tower of confusion, God confused languages and cultures for a reason. Perhaps its OK to have different cultures while supporting a Hebrew salvation system?
I don't have all the answers, so I welcome your comments too.
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
The term "fellowheir" also implies Gentiles share our right to salvation by becoming Israelites, just as the children who heard the call from Egypt were also saved.
The 13 tribes that were saved from Egypt, including a tribe of Manasseh, where Joseph, allowed for Gentiles? Would I be correct in saying this? Would Egyptian Gentiles fit in this tribe? Was God making an OT provision for Gentiles even before the Exodus? What do you think?
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
(KJV)
This verse also implies Jesus has a "fold" from Exodus times, maybe from Abram, maybe from Eden times, all following the same process of salvation. To come from one fold to God's fold, suggests to me, the Hebrew fold is the original fold we all must belong to. What do you think of this idea?
One statement Jesus made that Jews in their pride didn't like, that Rome built for them, was their temple:
Mr 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
(KJV)
Statements like this:
Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Not sure what Jews see from this verse, but it implies a High Priest and temple was running in Abram's day even before the Exodus, before the Mt Sinai temple was built.
Perhaps we could ask why build another temple in Mt Sinai, after Levi, when Abram already worshipped a high priest Melchisedec, from which Jesus would also partake.
Do you have any comments on this ?
Than there are strange changes to the services of salvation:
Lu 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
The services of salvation change during Passover, which Christian churches "relabel as the Lord's Ordinance", but it is really the Passover feast, changed from animal sacrifice to plant sacrifice (wheat and grapes are plant based ). Were not these provisions of sacrifice also in the OT? Why don't Christian churches acknowledge these services as a "renewed Passover Feast"?
Notice the service points "forward in time as a symbol", do this in remembrance of me. Forward to whom? The wedding feast in heaven. The saints gather to the marriage supper with their groom, Jesus, we are the bride.
Do you have any comments on this my friend?
So these are just a few passages, where the Scriptures do not destroy the Hebrews way of salvation through Jesus, or via His people the Hebrews. It implies Adam also spoke Hebrew and was saved as a Hebrew too, otherwise He was of a different fold. The fold of Christ had to be formed from before the foundation of the world, even before Adam might sin. Sadly He did sin. But it also allows us to experience love in a way not seen before. Thus I respect Jews and any provisions GOD has for them in the future, although Jesus promises us to build a new city to replace the old city on earth, and is our High Priest in a temple, in heaven.
Its fun to discuss Scripture my friend, though we agree or disagree doesn't matter, as long as we enjoy the sharing of God via how we might see things. I welcome your comments and your views. Welcome to Dave's forum where we ponder confusion.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 24, 2020 22:48:07 GMT -5
Hey guys – running slow here – cold and flu season has hit my household I do not necessarily disagree with the POINT you make Robert I just don’t think it represents the whole Imagine 12 spokes in a wagon wheel – spoke 1 and spoke 2 are 100% a part of the whole No one can argue that spokes 1 & 2 are in error But – the Christian only view point is incomplete – IMO This is why – each page of the Tanak is both literal and figurative Creation = 100% physical – on the ground and 100% spiritual The duality of TOV and RA = 100% physical – on the ground and 100% spiritual Gen 3:15 - The saga of the ahl - The exile – the divorce of Israel – rededication of the Temple – Jesus Christ – Pentecost – The Second Coming All = 100% physical – on the ground and 100% spiritual The Christian argument = Since Jesus – the spiritual Gospel is given to all – is valid Why does this CANCEL physical – on the ground and 100% spiritual of the Tanak? There are unfilled physical prophesies promise to physical Israel and Judah Post Exile – God gave Israel (the 10 Northern Tribes) a divorce – Jer 3:8 Those 10 tribes became lost – where did they go? A few went East (I’ll come back to that) Most went North over the Caucus Mountains – many Caucus Mountain Passes are named in Hebrew Who are the peoples that migrated over the Caucus Mountains into Europe, Scandinavia, and Russia Caucasians – that end up dominating Europe, Scandinavia, and Russia Today – who are the European Jews that re-established 1948 Israel? – Caucasians Caucasian dominated world became our Western ‘White’ Christendom Culture Compare maps of Caucasian World and Christian World Caucasians are primarily – the lost Tribes – or we are Israel (Christian or not) 100% physical – on the ground and 100% spiritual The promised regathering of the lost tribes - Ezekiel 36:24 "For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.” Jer 30:3 "The days are coming, 'declares the LORD,' when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess," says the LORD. Israel has never returned to the Promised land until 1948 Never before have the Jews regathered from ALL the countries Jordan has been a very close Major non-NATO ally in the Middle East since 1996 (Wiki) Israel and Saudi Arabia do not have any official diplomatic relations. However, news reports have surfaced indicating extensive behind-the-scenes diplomatic and intelligence cooperation between the countries, in pursuit of mutual goals against regional enemy Iran. At the same time, the Saudi relationship with the Palestinian National Authority and Mahmoud Abbas is deteriorating (Wiki) Iraq should just have a USA stamp on it – America is allied with both Israel and Saudi Arabia and Egypt Because of WWI – Power was transferred from Kings and Zars to the people Because of WWI – Belford Declaration Because of WWII – the Holocaust martyred ½ the European Jews and the other ½ rededicated themselves to the Torah = 1948 Israel How can Ezk 38 war not be 100% Physical on the ground How can the war of Ezk 38 take place unless Israeli has returned to the Promised land? Not only has Israel been remarried to God – it has been reunited with Judah Even if every Lost Tribe member has NOT physically returned to the Promised Land itself – Caucasian ‘White’ Western Christendom Culture = 1948 Israel’s allies and supporters Am I saying that the end times will be in the next 60 years or so? I am not a date setter – Time is not linear – The Disciples expected Christ back a long time ago Did we miss the Second Coming – or did they just not understand the terminology of ‘This generation’? |
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Post by rakovsky on Feb 25, 2020 0:13:23 GMT -5
One of the moral problems that I have with this line of thinking and major focus on the Israeli State in terms of prophecy is that alot of supporters of this theory use it to justify the actions of the Israeli state toward the native Christian and Muslim population. Their reasoning runs something like- the Israelis are coming into this land as a fulfillment of prophecy, and so the Christians and Muslims there aren't part of the prophecy, and they are resisting the Israelis' attempt to rule them, so Israeli measures are justified.
But this is pretty faulty reasoning. First one would have to prove that this return was really a fulfillment of prophecy. And even if one was able to prove this, it doesn't necessarily follow that the native Christians or Muslims are in the way. For instance, very many of the native Christians or Muslims are in fact Israelite in their own descent.
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Post by Dave on Feb 25, 2020 2:27:48 GMT -5
Moral problems – influencing the way we ‘see’ the world and/or scripture?
In America – the commercial evangelical Christian message has been a ‘Feel Good’ message
I call them ‘Feel Good Christians’ – God is only good – God is love – God is mercy – Roberts says God is only TOV
Feel Good Christians beat Rom 8:28 to death – just believe and all will be well – all is all nice
I have seen many people come to ‘church’ looking for help – maybe they have cancer – lost their job and the family is falling apart – come to church looking and are fed Rom 8:28 Feel Good stuff
Sounds inviting – but real life continues to suck – sickness gets worse – family falls apart – grandma dies
Why does innocent little 3 year old Jimmy have to die?
Why do bad things continue to happen to good people?
The American message is an empty message and these same people walk away from the ‘church’ building – and unfortunately they also leave Christ behind
Christians are just left confused and ill equipped to understand – by this one sided message
Rom 8:28 is for God will to be done – and God plan for this planet ends in the Book of Revelations
What is ‘Feel Good’ about Tribulation and persecution?
The Gnostic Contest looks more like Mat 10:34-39
From the non-believers - one of the talking points questions is – explain how God is the God of Love and Mercy when he commands Saul to kill every last man, woman, servant, child, baby, pet, and livestock of 7 tribes in Canaan?
When Joshua took Jericho – how many survived?
When Rome razed Jerusalem – how many died?
IF Modern Investigative Reporters were available to the internet back then
1- Imagine how an interview with Hagar would play out?
2- How would News Canaan report the conduct of the Jews?
3- How would News Arabia report the razing of Jerusalem by Rome?
4- How would Greco News report the Maccabees slaughter of their soldiers
5- ever read the history of the Crusades?
6- ever read the history of the protestant reformation and the 30 years war (12 million dead)
7- 200 years ago – white Christians could shoot dead black Australian Aborigines or an American Indians
There are two issues before us
1- the hand of God upon the world – fulfillment of prophesy
2- the berthing pains – felt on the Contest field by the Contestants involved – the conduct on the ground
A Gnostic Contestant – understands why bad things happen – and why little Jimmy past away
Here is my stupid example – Chess
White team verses Dark team
There are dominate pieces – Castles with Kings and Queens
There are spiritual players – knights, bishops
But most of us are just the pawns – I am
A pawn on the battle field stuck in the middle of someone else’s war
A soul having a physical souljourn – on the contest battle field of corporeal reality
Arrayed against us – other pawns – spiritual archon – and dark leaders
Allied with us – other pawns – spiritual angels – and the Light / salvation / Christ
Judge me – I have a moral issue with Saul – so he cannot have a place in scripture
I have a moral issue with all the whores and prostitutes used in God’s plan
I wonder how my sexually repressed grandmother justified Jacob having 5 wives?
The Truth – on the ground – man has always treated man as Cain treated Able
It was true in Genesis, Exodus, etc, etc
It is true today
Nothing has changed – regardless if we think it to be moral or not
Do I think the conduct on the ground is justified?
Complete honesty – these are the facts as I see them - IMO
Israel is NOT going away by force without involving the US – which will include Turkey which is maygog
Today – any removal of Israel by force – with include Iran – which will throw Saudi Arabia into bed with Israel
The Palestinian side of the issue – was the reason for the Belford Declaration in 1917
It simply created an ‘apartide’ – Pal sections with autonomous rule /and Jewish sections
WWII – called the Jews home / drove them home
‘apartide’ became a one party rule in 1948 = Israel – the Pal were still there as always
Since 1970 – there have been over 40 peace attempts – fact
Each presented from the side of Israel and the West / EU/USA
Each rejected by Pal over the existence as Israel as a state
Would have Israel kept is promises if the peace accord worked – we will never know
Zero compromise as to the existence of Israel as a state is an obvious deal breaker
Therefore Peace is not forth coming – until Islam gives up is obsession with the state of Israel
Is that going to happen? – NO
Scripture says - NO
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Post by Dave on Feb 25, 2020 2:37:11 GMT -5
For me - I am facinated by the timing - 1948 Israel - the Nag Hammadi / Dead Sea Scrolls are interesting but on a completely different level I also see a rock road ahead - pleas check this out Gnostic Scripture from Biology 101 |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2020 13:04:04 GMT -5
Gentlemen, I read all your posts, and they words and thoughts are interesting. I like to think Dave that I might be a descendent of Reuben, the first of the lost tribes. I don't know, but I attach my Hebrew roots to somebody, I can relate to. Whatever happened in history we don't really know, but it is interesting to study, and you present a good read.
Our views are like 2 spokes on a wheel, and maybe having different views doesn't really matter.
Dave writes: "A pawn on the battle field stuck in the middle of someone else’s war "
That is a good summary of our we are in this world, but on the battle ground in a war over our soul, I like this verse:
Fight the good fight of faith. 1Ti 6:12
As we fight daily the good fight of supporting Jesus and His words, in prayer, walking in those words, talking those words, we become supporters of His words. Jesus was the word personified that came from GOD to us. John 1:1-12.
Rakovsky says: "And even if one was able to prove this, it doesn't necessarily follow that the native Christians or Muslims are in the way. For instance, very many of the native Christians or Muslims are in fact Israelite in their own descent.
I don't think the physical descent is as important as the adopted spiritual grafting of all people into Jesus, and His blood line. What the good news is truly all about is Jesus is a Jew of true descent, and any person accepting Him become biologically related to Jesus, Jewish via His blood line, through this grafting in process. Ro 11:17
This is great news for the world. We are grated into His blood line, His Jewish descent and thus our older human biological line does NOT matter.
This creates us as one accord, we become brothers and sisters of Christ and through Him being a biological Father of descent, becomes the second Adam for us. This is as literal and the first Adam is our older biological line for humans, but spoiled due to sin.
Since Jesus was a Hebrew Israelite through descent, then we too are the same as Him. So rather than think I might be of a lost tribe of Reuben, I do know I am of the tribe of Judah, thanks to Jesus. This is a personal fact, which makes the older roots of my history not that important.
Too many people think blood lines from earth are more important, or cultural togetherness more important, Jew, Muslim, for example; than the grafting process of becoming Hebrew through this process. Ruth became a Hebrew trough this process, so we can do the same, through Jesus. I find it the great news of the gospel.
Shalom everyone
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Post by Dave on Feb 25, 2020 21:26:33 GMT -5
I don't think the physical descent is as important as the adopted spiritual grafting of all people into Jesus, and His blood line. How can spiritual grafting occur without the physical on the ground events Jesus dies upon the cross – real physical event or not? Jesus returns after the resurrection – real event or not? The Jews of the day rejected Jesus – real event or not? Rome razed the Temple to the ground – real event or not? If you think these events real on the ground events in the physical realm – tell me why? Why do they have to be real events? – Does the Gospel carry the same weight if all these events were not on the ground physical events? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 12:22:30 GMT -5
Your right of course, Dave. We have a physical blood lines too, that is important to GOD, but to me, being adopted is more powerful a message.
My blood line has a biological dad who was a wicked husband, left his wife with 3 kids to run away seeking something else.
His friend, took pity on her and her kids, and cared for her, they fell in love and married later. My Dad admired this man, who adopted him as a real son.
Thus for reasons like this, adoption and the love from people like that, is far more important to me, than bloodlines of truly wicked men. I deeply admire my Grandfather, he was a kinsman redeemer in every sense of the word. A simile of Jesus to my Dad, a powerful demonstration of love in action to me.
Shalom
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