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Post by Dave on Jan 30, 2020 9:30:02 GMT -5
You make it very evident that you use only one line from Ezk And ignore all the other lines – or address them – you say – never mind about all the line that do not support your view
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things
1 – The base theology for Jews and Gnostics and Eastern oriental Christians GOD CREATED EVERYTHING – GOD is all – God is absolute – there is nothing except God The E became the mc2 – nothing else is added
From this base theology – it is interesting to the Jew and Gnostic (me) that the American Indian will say – God’s Spirit is in the tree and the rock – cut open the tree or crack open the rock – there is God’s Spirit In the Trinity – the HS is the matrix upon which all creation is formed (including the ra) – the medium A Jew will say – you see a bus go by, there goes God – because God is all there is – absolute
2- God uses the archon to test all creation – which includes man First does God test us? If so why?
Deut 8:2 "You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.
Jer 17:10 "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind,
1 Chron 29:17 "Since I know, O my God, that You try the heart and delight in uprightness
Jer 11:20 But, O LORD of hosts, who judges righteously, Who tries the feelings and the heart
Ecc 3:18 I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts."
Does God test man? - YES!
If scripture is correct?
Why does God test man? - to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. - and delight in uprightness
Secondly – how does God test man? Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man:
God does not do it directly – he has a staff to do the testing – to be the satan Line upon line – word upon word – ahl and agl scripture says the satan is an obedient servant of the Lord Satan does the testing for God
Satan is a verb – any being (visible or invisible) can be this verb – when they are functioning as a satan they are call the noun satan – remember Hebrew
Mat 16:23 But he (Jesus) turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.
Jesus says - Peter = satan - this is scripture / Gospel right out of the mouth of Jesus Christ Himself Using your Ezk 28 absolute demand of cherub and chata – then the disciple Peter is the one and only satan. Peter was the serpent in the garden – and upon this same Peter Jesus will build his church
Am I right? – no way – because there are probably more than 49 + 23 verses to say otherwise One verse does not outweigh the entire rest of scripture
Is Peter the one and only satan?
I am going to agree 1- It is God’s Will – YES! – God is in absolute control because God is absolute 2- there is a plurality of satans – more than one – many
Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
YES! – there are many archons (anti-awakening forces) against man YES! – there are many types / kinds / species? / races? / classifications / functional types
Clarification – where did these multiple archon (bad-guy) types come from and who made them?
Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
But to maintain the God = TOV theology – RA was a by=product / a consequence / an indirect creation / by the left hand – female HS It is a word game
My wife speaks the Visian Language from her native home in Mindanao, Philippines She calls satan and any evil being a Wak-Wak – it is just vocabulary
Gen 3:15 is all about a Wak-Wak and the Contest the LORD / GOD put between Wak-Wak and man There was a Wak-Wak in the garden – a Wak-Wak tested Job – God used a Wak-Wak (angel of death) to smite the Egyptiants – and Jesus said, get behind me Peter you Wak-Wak - Lillith is a Wak-Wak – all of the demons that plagued Solomon are Wak-Wak – the evil spirit that the Lord sent upon Saul are Wak-Wak
Your Hebrew ‘sar’ is a prince of a domain – My ‘archon’ are a rulers of a domains (plural) Both are ‘bad-guy-beings’
YES! – you have ‘Free Will’ = go for it
rescued from eternal death – rescued from ignorant physical reality to spiritual awareness If you name is not in the Book of Life – you experience the second death – death of spirit/soul
I am sorry if you think scripture say that God is absolute make no sense to you And you are correct – the opponent as you call them – the archon – the sars (pl) – the principalities, the powers, the rulers (archon) – the wicked spiritual forces are necessary for man to recognize we need rescue
Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said to myself concerning the sons of men, "God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts."
I wish you understood this as a Christian Rescue in God is salvation through Jesus Christ – which is a renewal of or communion with God – our relationship as you call it
Is there a need for salvation? Only if you Love the Lord, respect His word, and long to be with Him by His side - to do His will – to facilitate His will – to be His instruments here A Rabbi would say I am being selfish – it is wrong to seek rewards in heaven – that is a selfish motive But the motive should be to remember and revile God in this world to other souljourners To glorify God – to praise God – this should be our only motive according the a Rabbi - then if we do this – then all the rest will follow
A Rabbi will say when we see something as RA – it is a ignorance on our part, because we are unable to see the TOV – the God’s plan in it
The Holocaust was the biggest RA to the Jews of the 20th century The Holocause was the biggest TOV for the Jews of the 20th century because ½ of them became martyrs and the other ½ returned to God
Genesis 50:20 ESV As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 13:37:25 GMT -5
Your theories of faith make no sense Dave.
But at least we are clear about them.
You can't do science experiments to prove your ideas. But I can.
You can create darkness using light. wow. In the shadow experiment, and shadows is a Hebrew concept, as light is a Hebrew concept, you can make umbra shadows using light, yes, but only if you move away from the light.
If you do the same experiment under a super flood light, there are no umbra shadows at any distance from the light source.
Such darkness only happens in our world of RA and TOV.
You say I don't read all the lines of Scripture. I do. All the ones you look for have opponent with man. That's one theme. Some have opponent with GOD, that's another theme. How many of these texts? just three. The three you ignore.
war in heaven. you don't know cherub sinned. you ignore archon chief. different words. wak wak. How convenient for you. I follow Hebrew, you don't seem to. Even your Talmud you claim Moses wrote. He didn't write Talmud, human traditions did. Moses wrote five books, or others added bits to them, etc. It's in Hebrew, old paleo Hebrew too.
You have a Father asking the Holy Spirit create chaos, and darkness and RA. wow, what a strange God you serve.
Now you introduce pantheism into your religion. God is in the rock, the tree. No. No. Somehow you're so steeped in confusion. Sure all things come from GOD, but GOD is a personality of energy, not also forces of energy. Is there a difference? IMO yes. Can we explain this? no
The Holocaust was the biggest RA to the Jews of the 20th century The Holocause was the biggest TOV for the Jews of the 20th century because ½ of them became martyrs and the other ½ returned to God
Perhaps, but you violate Scripture reasoning:
Ro 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
If GOD knows both evil and good, we are allowed to do both? Paul says no
Why Dave are the ten commandments commanding us not to murder, not to covet, not to have idols? opposing all things RA. If RA was invented by GOD???
So your concept of testing is weird. Only makes sense if GOD is NOT RA.
Does this make your heavenly parents hypocrites Dave? We would never follow our earthly parents if they wanted obedience from us, yet they break the same rules they expected us to follow?
Let me ask you, has GOD ever broken His own Ten commandment rules? you would say yes?
For me, that answer is NO, not ever. GOD is only always TOV. Never RA.
Funny your quick to label my story as Tyre, but your slow labelling your story away from Cyrus? Isn't your metaphor as bad as mine?
But at least I can explain RA and GOD, how GOD creates RA without doing RA, but you can't.
My GOD only loves. Your GOD loves and hates, does both RA and TOV, but expects his children to do TOV rather than RA, weird. Testing. No reason given. Absolute tyrant.
With the children of Israel walking into the promised land, how many of the 2 million or so, made it into the promised land as true followers? Only 2. Joshua and Caleb. Rest went to hell as unbelievers. SO much for reading the OT, in Moses day as children obeying GOD.
Is it possible GOD dealt with them in their BAAL, their RA, that they never had wanted TOV in the first place, so GOD couldn't act properly to them? Have you ever considered this?
If there is no sin defined, there is no salvation. Ask a Jew what sin is? It can't be RA, or not doing TOV, these things are already designed by GOD.
Sinning has to be RA, darkness, the things we do that blocks GOD and His light. In His light there is no RA.
Getting the HS to create darkness RA next to light TOV, is a contradiction to say the least. It could never happen.
Only found in your Gnostic writings of confusion.
My Hebrew writings are fine and explain everything nicely.
IF God is both RA and TOV, yet created RA for testing man...that makes GOD an absolute dictator...I will kill you if you don't do as I say... you follow GOD out of fear, not love
You make Scripture weird, Get behind me Satan to Peter, does this make Peter Satan? Where do words spoken come from Dave?
three sources
1) From God 2) From Baal, the dysfunction affect of sinning Adam caused on all other humans, causing SELF to rise apart from GOD, now in our DNA, thus we talk using our own words of power, that means nothing to GOD. 3) From Satan (or some archon acting as opponent) putting words into our mind.
All three sources come via our cognitive mind, where the conscience sits.
SO when Peter's BAAL spoke moving the words of Satan, the fallen angel, this does not make Peter Satan per se', but functioning as an opponent because his BAAL SELF sided with RA rather than with TOV.
One last approach to you:
Why did Jesus have to die?
The Scripture I propose to this answer directly attacks your Gnostic writings, proving your material is wrong. sorry to say that, but the Chief Archon is wanting to deceive you here.
The Holy Spirit never created chaos, and a chief Archon . To do so implies GOD wilfully allowed His Son to die for a planned reason. As if sin was created on purpose, with a solution created on purpose. And darkness created on purpose. That suggests all this destruction and killing is designed by GOD for some good, we don't know yet, as you point out with Jews over Holocaust. Sure GOD know all things, sees forward, but this doesn't mean GOD wilfully created RA, and thus wanted His Son to die, as a solution.
What is RA? It has to be a place where GOD isn't? Doesn't the umbra shadows show this? Light doesn't enter there. Our experiments show you answers. You don't have answers.
Sin is the condition we live away from GOD, yet all things come from GOD. SO how is sin even possible? It's hard to explain, impossible. But free will agents can choose no. Most lived Beings are choosing yes. One choose no.
Free will allows for this. It's called love.
Some how you have all those angels doing base on robotic fear, not love. Weird.
SO if GOD is love, that makes love personal. Is love in the rock? no Is love in the tree? no, but you somehow you think it is?
Light is a force of defining love, but is not love. Love is a Personality doing love. When you do the shadow experiment you as a person move towards GOD as a Person, the light is just a force of influence. Another person may grab your arm and move you away from the Divine Person. That person wants your RA. Because He lives away from GOD in His RA. God is not RA, nor does RA, but his influences do create the observation of RA in you.
Ex 21:22 If Satan strive, and hurt the Holy Spirit with future living child, so that her fruit depart from her, 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give eternal life for eternal life,
I write the earthly text for a heavenly context. The Holy Spirit is an administrator for living, includes Adam and Eve and all living humans.
Satan did mischief by tricking Adam and Eve to sin, causing the Holy Spirit to partially leave them, making them naked. This impacted our future DNA and all the living administration there after spoiled. Notice the penalty.
And you say Jesus died as rescue us from RA and TOV, all designed by GOD? If the mischief done to the Holy Spirit was done, why do you suppose the Holy Spirit created chief archons? Its a contradiction.
One text is right, the other text wrong.
Jesus said you must be born again, via the Holy Spirit. So RA spoiled the womb of the Holy Spirit, not the HS creating the spoiling. That RA came from Satan, the first cherub who sinned.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 30, 2020 16:24:21 GMT -5
Pleas show me an experiment that demonstrates / proves your two word theology hold water Do an experiment that angels have free will
Except choshek came first Gen 1:2 then the Light Gen 1:3
Sure that is why I am a Messianic Jew and you claim everything within Judaism is error
You really need to take a class – the Torah was not penned until the Babylonian Exile How did Moses do that You also assume that Moses only wrote 5 document then forgot how to communicate. Moses probably wrote grocery list / shopping list / bank account on the number of sheep / bank accounts on the number of Hebrews
I have quoted Isa 45:7 and other supporting verses – God is absolute – period! I am sorry you do not accept the book of Isaiah as inspired and correct
What are you trying to say – those who died in the Holocaust deserved it – don’t agree Or the Germans that murdered them are damned? – do agree
I am so amazed at how much the Jewish Kabbalah and the Gnostic authors from the Hag Hammadi agree. The Nag Hammadi is very Jewish – just not very catholic
I have quoted verses over and over from the ahl says God test us 1 Cor 3:13 Eeach man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. I am sorry you do not accept ahl scripture
Jesus says Peter is satan and is evil This is the exact same argument to prove that satan is a cherub and has free will See how silly your argument is
RA is the movement toward dysfunction
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 14:00:23 GMT -5
So Dave you're a Messianic Jew? That's great. always wanted to talk to a born again Jew.
So why don't you quote Hebrew to me? Always Greek /Coptic writings?
You say torah wasn't written until the exile? really?
De 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
SO this scroll Moses wrote placed in side of ark, only happened in the exile? huh?
Arr no.
And the truth inside the ancient Hebrew scroll, the first 5 scrolls Moses wrote will witness against your Talmud, your kabbalah and your Coptic stuff. It's old Hebrew Moses wrote.
Rob: "archon chief. different words. wak wak. How convenient for you. I follow Hebrew, you don't seem to.
Dave: "Sure that is why I am a Messianic Jew and you claim everything within Judaism is error
Moses wrote the torah in old Hebrew. I follow that. From that all other torah has to agree with it.
We have come to a impasse it seems Dave, and we don't agree. I will have to leave your website, and spend more time with GOD on my own website. I enjoyed discussing things with you and learned a lot.
Sad if we don't agree with Hebrew words, how can any of us become of one accord? You seem to ignore the messages in the Hebrew. That's your choice.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 31, 2020 14:17:17 GMT -5
There are several question to you - that you have promised to answer Now you are just evading them -
Was it your mission to convert anyone here to you way of thinking - or did you come here to explore a different perspective.
Your Ezk 28 version of satan did not exist until 300AD Rome, and is of a complete Roman origin - you should Ponder that The Torah Jews never thought this - and still don't - and Rome has persucuted the Jews until 1948 The First Chritians never thought this - but there contribution was to be edir=ted out of existance and their followers eliminated
I am confused as to the modern phenomia of Israel Is it prophetic - Ellen White was very clear in her writting
For a long time I would say - Jesus said the fig tree was dead and will not fruit For a long time I thought the fig tree returning was a Christian Revival
This was chen I was a churchian - now as a Gnostic - I see more clearly the role of Islam and Allah as they relate to the Book of Revelation - now I do see Israels return prophetic and extremely meaningful
1945 discovery of the Nag Hammadi and is claim to be deliberately hidden for the end of days 1947 discovery of the Dead Sea Scroll and the Hebrew War Scroll also intedned for the last gereration 1948 Israel returns - and since has obviously been BLESSED
Which means that the 'Days of Noah' are soon upon the earth - Nephilim / Repheim, Archon, demons from the abyss - As a Gnostic I am so amazed at Roman Christendom's denial of this fact - and refusal to train its members as if ths contest is not real - or will never happen
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2020 15:35:32 GMT -5
As a Gnostic I am so amazed at Roman Christendom's denial of this fact
Dave you are beclouded into thinking the Hebrew GOD preserved all over the world, a smaller collection of Jewish Hebrew, is maybe the only bits with real truth, is NOT a Roman Edit at all. This collection also existed in the Dead Sea Scrolls, even most of the NT, written around 55 AD, hundreds of year before ROME existed, but your Gnostic writings existed around the time of Simon Magnus. These things we have discussed before.
So during the reformation, after Rome destroyed our Bibles, GOD caused true followers to rise up the Gnostic literature of truth for the last days? I don't see that at all?
The Protestant's fought over which Bible words? What Bible did Luther write in German, or Wycliffe write in English? Are you saying what God inspired is wrong?
I suspect you received a bad taste of Bibles from ROME, hence you go to another Bible, that is not Hebrew at all, but a confusing mixture of a greater collection you think is better. I have studied this greater collection, and its not good at all.
Doesn't the NT say, broad is the way of books with more writings and many go there, but narrow are the books which lead to life? And few find it?
I follow Hebrew, not Jewish Hebrew obviously, the older Ancient Hebrew, now a dead language, which Moses did write (the torah as added to the ark) not in the exile time as you report. Other prophets added to this Hebrew. This I follow. It's got nothing to do with Roman Edit. Why don't you study who the Essenes were and how much they knew of the pierced Messiah more than the disciples did before Jesus even arrived. Who were these Jews, why were they different from other Jews? Today modern Jews ban anybody studying their old site, making them as "Christian Jews", they would refuse to grant you digging rights. SO be careful how you study these special people.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 1, 2020 16:51:36 GMT -5
The Roman Edit is your Roman Christian Cultural denial that only truth exist inside Roman Canon Please try to keep your argument to the facts – not wishful thinking 19 fragments – the largest the size of your thumb – and only one verse identified as agl And you fail to mention the War Scroll – written in Hebrew and fits right in with the Nag Hammadi’s call for preparedness during the end of days Bad taste in Bible teaching What is scripture – you say only the Roman Texus Receptus written in Greek by Erasmus you say even the Jews are allowed only the text Rome approves When the truth is – Jewish scripture is so much greater than just the Tanak When the truth is – scripture says Psa 19:1 and Rom 1:20 Israel is chosen to be a witness unto the whole world - how is the whole world to see this witness if not for history? Is Gnostic scripture better? 1- it is not in conflict with Jewish theology or Christian – it does not choose sides 2- it validates everything within Jewish and Christian theology 3- First and foremost the Gnostic literature requires a more spiritual walk in Christ than church Such a personal walk that there is no need for man-made religion and its church buildings 4- Secondly – it calls us to be aware of the Contest and the array of (anti-awakening forces)against us 5- Timing – and again my question of whether Israel and 1948 is prohhetic because if 1948 Israel is prophetic then the 1945 Nag Hammadi and 1947 Dead Sea Scrolls beome even more vailble when they claim to be hidden to the generation(s) of the end of days If I spent the same amount of time with the Torah – would you respect me as a Rabbi If I spent as muct time with the agl – would you respect me as a Christian leader Please try to keep your argument to the facts – not wishful thinking (Wiki) - Torah (Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "Instruction", "Teaching" or "Law") has a range of meanings. It can most specifically mean the first five books (Pentateuch or five books of Moses) of the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible. This is commonly known as the Written Torah. It can also mean the continued narrative from all the 24 books, from the Book of Genesis to the end of the Tanakh (Chronicles), and it can even mean the totality of Jewish teaching, culture, and practice, whether derived from biblical texts or later rabbinic writings. This is often known as the Oral Torah.
If in bound book form, it is usually printed with the rabbinic commentaries (perushim). If meant for liturgic purposes, it takes the form of a Torah scroll (sefer Torah), which contains strictly the five books of Moses.
In rabbinic literature the word Torah denotes both the five books (Hebrew: תורה שבכתב "Torah that is written") and the Oral Torah (תורה שבעל פה, "Torah that is spoken"). The Oral Torah consists of interpretations and amplifications which according to rabbinic tradition have been handed down from generation to generation and are now embodied in the Talmud and Midrash.[2] Rabbinic tradition's understanding is that all of the teachings found in the Torah (both written and oral) were given by God through the prophet Moses, some at Mount Sinai and others at the Tabernacle, and all the teachings were written down by Moses, which resulted in the Torah that exists today. According to the Midrash, the Torah was created prior to the creation of the world, and was used as the blueprint for Creation.[3] The majority of Biblical scholars believe that the written books were a product of the Babylonian captivity (c. 6th century BCE), based on earlier written sources and oral traditions, and that it was completed with final revisions during the post-Exilic period The written version today can only trace it origin to 6th century BCAnd what you mean by Torah and what a Jews means are not the same Let's open a thread to discuss the Essenes – a UFO contact group – in contact with angels who gave them the War Scroll DEAD SEA Scrolls HIDDEN ALIEN INFORMATION youtu.be/EyuCyV_QxU0Nick Redfern: Dead Sea Scrolls, the CIA, and the White Sands UFO Scroll youtu.be/STv7OSjGTFAThe Book of Enoch, Dead Sea Scrolls, UFOs, & Nephilim - Dr. I.D.E. Thomas youtu.be/Dn2XYV_b-a0Practicing Jews living a communal life – much like the Gnostic Cathars As apposed to – different from – religious Jews following Rabbis or Catholics follow doctrines Please try to keep your argument to the facts – not wishful thinking Don’t you understand the religious tension / political tension /cultural tensions of the West Bank I think it anti-sematic to blatantly blame the Israeli government for the situation Why don’t you dig on the Temple Mount – I suppose the Israeli government keeps the Jews away (FYI - Temple Mount is not the true location of the Temple) ALSO - Please try to keep your argument to the facts I could find zero Jewish literature calling the Essenes Christian Jews - documentation please www.jewishencyclopedia.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=+Essenes+&commit=search
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 12:45:33 GMT -5
Interesting material you write Dave. Thank you for this.
I like how you define "torah" as teachings, both oral teachings, written teachings as Moses wrote the first 5 books, and the broad teachings to include all books of the Bible.
Let's begin with our "special writings" the Hebrew meaning for "qodosh graphe" .
You say the Textus Receptus is Greek, perhaps, it follows the LXX. Is there anything wrong with that? Let's get the Hebrew to answer that question.
The Scriptures do tell us how to read Scripture, and even how the Scriptures came to be.
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Why is the stone of offence (Jesus Messiah) a snare to the people of Jerusalem?
Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Some Jews were trapped by Jesus and saved, many weren't saved. Why was that?
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Notice the witness is sealed in the teachings among Yeshua's disciples.
So if you want to find the special writings of GOD look for Yeshua's disciples, who are Hebrew people speaking Hebrew, who are followers of Yeshua, and who bear witness to His torah. Today we might call them Messianic Hebrew followers.
Now to another place where Scripture is also discussed:
Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
Wine is a simile of false ideas arising from teachings, the teachings do not teach. So the theme begins with beware of false teachings. How do we know if the teaching interpretation is false?
Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
The Hebrew suggests look up all the words "qav" on a theme, line them up with other lines, "the verses in Scripture", lines of Scripture, lines upon Scripture, here a little and there a little, across all the OT and NT torah. Maybe across other teachings, such as prophets and other books outside of the Bible collection?
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Here the Hebrew makes a prophecy that Hebrew goes out into a New Tongue to speak to people who are not mother tongue Hebrews, they are Greeks, and later even English.
Do we find the Hebrew translated into universal Greek? Yes. It's called the LXX and it is a bridge for all the OT in Hebrew and the NT in Hebrew, now written in Greek. We call this the textus receptus, the teachings copied and copied by those followers of Jesus, who were his disciples in modern times. These people were Luther, Wycliffe, both followers of Jesus. They lived by the light they knew.
So if the LXX is in Greek, a new tongue, what does Scripture think of it?
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
The new tongue still does not make them hear. They don't listen. They aren't saved by these new tongues at all.
How were they to hear? Let's ask Scripture...
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Notice the same was the Hebrew was to be studied. You look up all the Greek words, and all the Greek verses and study all the contexts, but many fall backwards and are snared by the new tongue.
Even in English we are confused how we read. We read what we want to read.
Isa 28:14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Now the Bible speaks to those who speak only Hebrew, the Jews in Jerusalem.
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
This corner stone the Jews rejected. When you talk to Jews on this, they say Yeshua doesn't exist as a Hebrew word in the OT Hebrew, so the foundation is missing they say?
I guess it depends upon how you speak your mother tongue, and the grammar rules you use. But notice this strange verse, Jesus is speaking:
Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded "translated" unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Why is a Jew translating Hebrew to Hebrew speaking people, from the torah written in Hebrew? Can't the Hebrew speaking people read their own Hebrew clearly? Obviously they can't. Why is that? They have assumed the older Hebrew is the same as their modern Hebrew. We assume the grammar rules of prefix and suffix are the same as the older Hebrew? I am not sure about this. Hebrew speaking scholars say I played word games with them? So if that is so, why did a Jew have to translate Hebrew words to people who can read Hebrew? Has any Jew explained this verse?
So for example this verse comes to mind:
Ge 49:18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD. (KJV)
Ge 49:18 I have waited for thy Yeshua, O Father-YHWH. (Ancient Hebrew)
Some point out that proper names are not written with prefix, but when you look, Noah was written this way:
Notice Hebrew in this list of verses:
Next Scripture addresses the issue of how to read verses that are difficult:
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: 12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
We can't read Hebrew, or understand Hebrew, so what do we do? DO we use dictionaries, commentaries? comments by other learned men?
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
This seems to suggest we stay clear of the traditions and precepts of men.
Now you raise that the Essenes had access to other books not the traditional Hebrew collection. Perhaps. You say the Essenes were not Messiah followers? Perhaps. How would we know? In Moses times some pharaohs were YHWH followers, but their memory was carved off the rocks and all memory gone. So how would we know?
Now I don't find my KJV much different from Jewish Bibles that have those books. So it's not the question the Hebrew I have is wrong, it's the same as the Jews have in Hebrew, it's perhaps not the broader collection. What makes some writings special and some not special?
We have gone through the Gnostic selections you posted, most of them are nice, but some are not. So if some of them disagree with Hebrew words, than there is no light of dawn in the Gnostic writings.
Dave: "If I spent the same amount of time with the Torah – would you respect me as a Rabbi
Of course, as long as you quoted Hebrew to me, from the KJV collection of Hebrew I have already. You accept all materials and look for common truthful threads among them. I don't do this. Scripture says:
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
To the teachings and to the witness of those teachings: All must agree. Gnostic writings might be a witness, but some verses do not agree with Hebrew verses, so really Gnostic writings are confusing and therefore overall perhaps false.
How can I accept GOD created evil on purpose with archons designed to test humans so they could avoid this dysfunctional evil GOD created and walk towards the good GOD also created for mankind. A Man would argue, than GOD why didn't you create all things good in the beginning? This makes your God not a God of love, but of love and hate, of good and evil, and this is very wrong my friend.
You can't see simple experimental results with light and shadows. God's light does not enter some kinds of darkness. Therefore GOD doesn't do RA shadows.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 3, 2020 0:44:58 GMT -5
Not my definition – I will let the Jews define their own views
If you like the KJV – you are correct it is the LXX – nothing wrong with that at all You keep making the point that you are Hebrew only 1- your Hebrew is not original – it was transcribe into Greek, then Latin, then English, and now you are transcribing it back to the Hebrew claiming it to be original 2- When I talk Greek with someone – I can tell if they are a word looker upper – or a translator. The guys at AHR sure knew us as word looker-uppers – not translators 3- Why can I tell – grammar – grammar is translating 4- The ERROR you continually infer is that your KJV is the sum total of all allowable Jewish scripture Fact – Jewish Scripture – what Jews study and preach - is much larger than just the Tanak
Rome has no rite to tell the Jews what they can or cannot find valuable – how Romanly Arrogant
Agreed – Just like the First Christians, John, James, Peter, Phillip, Thomas -These authors have a Jewish style satan (God's servant) - Messianic Jews - are Jews with a Jewish style satan (God's servant)
You could start by believing scripture You cannot erase Isa 45:7 out of existence just by denying it Denying scripture is not TOV
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2020 12:48:42 GMT -5
I love grammar, but cannot apply grammar to Hebrew because nobody knows Ancient Hebrew grammar, your assuming my friend that modern Hebrew grammar rules are the same as Ancient Hebrew grammar rules, they might be similar but not precisely the same. That's my point. Why else would Jesus a Jew have to translate Hebrew to Hebrew speaking Jews? Get my point? You didn't comment on that?
I also showed you some Hebrew first hand. ALL the Hebrew, including the prefixs, coloured in yellow. Are you saying my Hebrew isn't Hebrew? DO I need more of the tanak to read the Hebrew words I showed you? No.
When Jesus was a babe reading His Hebrew, did He go to Jewish schools to read more oral learnings of His Hebrew? no. He was self taught at home.
When you meet a Rabbi, such as yourself? we don't follow basic rules of language. For example a "word" in any language, doesn't have multiple meanings. If it did, than nobody would understand anything.
Here is an English example :-
Once upon a time a boxer boxed a box . The box hurt. So the box died and was placed in a box . Now Box the boxer was a good dog as far as a boxer went. He could box the socks off a cat, old Box could. One day Box boxed the box tree until the cat ran down the box avoiding the boxing from the boxer because Box could box ! And that's why the box died ! Now if you find this story about Box a little confusing maybe its time to box old Box !
There are 4 different meanings here for "box" because "box" is spelt the same as 4 different word meanings. Word with similar spellings does not make them polysemy. You can still tell which is which except the last sentence:
"to box old Box" which is meant by "box" old Box? You cannot tell. Put Box in a wooden box? or box old Box with your fists?
Now Gordon Nehemiah has studied "elohiym" really nicely, all 3,500 occasions in our smaller collection of Hebrew as the KJV shows. He ignores 3 or 6 contexts because they don't align with the other thousands in the overall meaning. Should language meanings work like this? NO.
Now take your understanding of the Hebrew letter "hey" when used as a prefix.
What is the grammar rule for using "hey"?
Do Jews agree there even existed an Ancient Hebrew language, now dead? No they don't. Did Moses write in this older Hebrew? yes He did. Still copies of something like it in the Dead Sea Scrolls too. This copy was placed in the side of the ark. And you say the copy was written later during the exile? No
The "hey" is a picture of a Person. Or divine Being.
In Psalms 20 verse 6, it reads
3068 [e] Yah·weh יְהוָ֗ה Yahweh N‑proper‑ms 4899 [e] mə·šî·ḥōw מְשִׁ֫יח֥וֹ His anointed Adj‑msc | 3ms
6030 [e] ya·‘ă·nê·hū יַ֭עֲנֵהוּ He will answer him V‑Qal‑Imperf‑3ms | 3ms
N‑proper‑ms //Adj‑msc | 3ms//V‑Qal‑Imperf‑3ms | 3ms
Notice the Jewish grammar rules . Why are these valid?
The prefix is "hey" a divine Person. The other prefix is "Vaw" the tent-peg, meaning secure.
Wasn't Yeshua's name in Matthew 1:26 a verb? Isn't Noahs name "comfort" also a verb?
So how do you tell the difference between a verb as a proper name and a verb as a improper name? What's the grammar rule?
In Gen 6:13 there is "Hhet-Nun" with prefix "Lamed" in ancient Hebrew the shepherds staff, meaning authority.
So "actively spoke elohiym (with) authority (to) Noah. "
Makes sense, the added (English ).
And in Psalms 20:6
The "divine Person" (hey prefix) Yashua YHWH Messiah,
So in the fuller sentence:
Ps 20:6 ¶ Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand. (KJV)
Ps 20:6 Now know I that the LORD Yashuah his Messiah; he (Father-YHWH) will hear him (yashuah-YHWH the Messiah) from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.
How else can you make sense of the pronouns here? In David's prayer to YHWH, is David praying about himself or the coming yashua messiah?
Now I cannot study Hebrew grammar easily, because my electronic Bible software doesn't allow for this.
I would love to look up all "hey" letters to get what this grammar rule was, not across all the torah, but the first 5 books Moses wrote, as He understood older Hebrew best.
Do you have any consideration of this at all? Do you respect Jeff Benner's work and research? Do you appreciate there exists an older Hebrew?
Obviously Jews don't consider this?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 3, 2020 23:00:39 GMT -5
That is a nice thing to say – but I fail to honor the title I am just a guy that has been studying this a long time – this is my life – this is what I do – this is who I am – I am only a student Jesus probably didn’t have to learn anything – but children of his era would have learned to read by reading scripture – that would be the Hebrew larger work than just the Tanak I am not a linguist – I never even knew the word polysemy until you taught it to me However, as a Greek translator – I would say you are terribly wrong(Wiki – polysemy) English has many polysemous words. For example, … My wife speaks Visian – a spider, a demon from hell, an aswang, or the devil are all Wak-Waks I know a little Japanese, from my days as a Marine – the joke was –“Today it is candy” or “Today it is raining” – exact same spelling in Japanese katakana In modern English tell me a one word definition for the word – @#$% Nouns are usually never the issue – verbs on the other hand are a science unto themselves Pronouns, as all nouns, are associated by case (nom, gen, dat, acc) ‘nom’ = subject regardless where it is place in the word order – ‘acc’ is always the direct object – regardless of word order Etc Be serious Robert – whatever was placed inside the ark lasted how long? Was it made of stone? – Was it drafted on reed papyrus in the middle of the desert? – Maybe if they brought enough along. The primary documentation of the Hebrew people has always been sheep skin. – how long does it last? The oldest we have today is only 2nd century BC YOU FORGET – Israel was captured and dragged off to Babylon – Libraries were burnt Hezekiah hid the ark (has it been found) All of the Hebrew Scriptures (that we have today) were written and gathered during the post-exile period – The argument among scholars if they were written in Aramaic This is common knowledge Seriously? 1- Do not confuse “Jews” and “Scholars” Does the average Jew on the street care? Answer – Does the average Christian care? Does a Rabbinic Scholar know – Does a Christian Scholar know – YES! 2- A language now dead – I think a Rabbi would argue Hebrew to be the only living language on the planet 3- I am amazed that of all languages Hebrew remains least evolved from it roots There is only one way your statement could be true God gave the Hebrew language – complete – to Moses at Sinai Moses was ‘gifted’ by the HS with tongues – with language That is why Hebrew has not needed to evolve – it was given complete I can easily believe this – if this is true then Hebrew is not a Dead Language www.history.com/news/6-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-dead-sea-scrollsThe majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls are in Hebrew, with some fragments written in the ancient paleo-Hebrew alphabet thought to have fallen out of use in the fifth century B.C. But others are in Aramaic, the language spoken by many Jews—including, most likely, Jesus—between the sixth century B.C. and the siege of Israel What language did Jesus speakIn 500 BC Alexander the Great took control of Israel Temple was taken over by Tammuz worship – pigs were sacrificed in the Temple The people were not allowed to gather for feast or speak Hebrew in business Hebrew did not die out – it became a written language to study – Torah Studies Hebrew because the written language of the scholars / Rabbis The common Israeli did not speak Hebrew – it was a mix of Aramaic and Greek The common man spoke Aramaic – businessmen also knew Greek Jesus spoke to the common man – His target audience was Aramaic speaking Jeff’s conversations with me were extremely meaningful If Hebrew came from God at Sinai – then paleo-Hebrew is just original Hebrew Why is it necessary to consider this paelo-Hebrew Do you think it tells a different message – are you saying in fact that the Torah has never been accurately translated?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2020 15:03:51 GMT -5
Why write kindly Dave. Your a good Christian, and a model Rabbi. Why is it necessary to consider this paelo-Hebrew Do you think it tells a different message – are you saying in fact that the Torah has never been accurately translated?Because it is the original Hebrew as you have said. The letters in the words tell you the meaning of the words. The letters might even give you clues to the grammar rules. God preserved this older Hebrew inside the modern Hebrew. Why? To hide its deeper message perhaps, stop bad people changing the Bible words. The torah with its Hebrew letters is accurate. Jews saw to that. The message from those words may be different. Consider some Hebrew words with the same letters used as nouns or verbs. Why does English make them different words, when Hebrew doesn't? He went to love her with his love. Do we have two different meanings of love here? no, so why does English wish to change things? The plough went out to plough all day, is a Bible verse. Do we have two different words here? No. Hebrew people see things by what they do. Greeks see things by what objects they are. Both cultures are totally different. It affects the Bible messages. Jeff Benner has been useful to me to see my Bible differently. He doesn't live by what he teaches though, because he has to fit in with modern Jews and a wider community. I don't have that restriction. If you study Benner carefully, you will find he says Jesus spoke Hebrew, the common people also spoke Hebrew. spiritualsprings.org/ss-1391.htmRead my take on the original Hebrew Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 5, 2020 11:51:02 GMT -5
I learned to translate Greek in High School – I have played with Greek Translation for 40+ years. I have interacted with other translators – I have taught others to translated Greek (as a layman - Sun day church) Your obsession that every word has only one true concrete meaning is not consistent with a translation of any language – all words take on meaning as to grammar and context. You also do not consider linguistic drift – Ezekiel and Moses live 1000 years apart Jeff Benner has been useful to me to see my Bible differently. He doesn't live by what he teaches though, because he has to fit in with modern Jews and a wider community. I don't have that restriction. OH – I see – he takes what he has learned and makes it applicable to the Torah. What does one verse – or one word – mean within the context of the whole of scripture? Here is an article that is 100% contrary to your view on polysemy Polysemy and Homonymy in Biblical Hebrew Journal of Translation, Volume 14, Number 1 (2018)www.sil.org/resources/publications/entry/774102. The interpretation of polysemous lexical items 2.1. The root fallacy The error of the root fallacy assumes that the true meaning of a word lies in its etymological root meaning. In the analysis of Hebrew, one-sided etymological analysis is common because Hebrew is built around the root of mostly three consonants. However, the interpretation of a word based on its root meaning while disregarding the context can be problematic
4. Conclusion Polysemy is a common feature of Hebrew as of other languages, and it is quite common that polysemous lexical items acquire multiple senses through a process of (sometimes a rather dramatic) semantic shift. This makes it difficult to maintain that a certain root meaning should be automatically attached to a word. Therefore, polysemous words should not be automatically tied to one common central meaning. Though understandable, this reflex overlooks the fact that words do develop specialized meanings and do widen their semantic range, particularly through the process of metonymy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2020 16:05:25 GMT -5
Your obsession that every word has only one true concrete meaning is not consistent with a translation of any language – all words take on meaning as to grammar and context.
You also do not consider linguistic drift – Ezekiel and Moses live 1000 years apart
As with any language, slang, devolution and linguistic drift (your term) does spoil language, hence where polysemy comes from.
My SDA scholar would agree with you, he told me to buy James Barr, with view similar to your post.
Sorry I don't buy the presentation. Jeff Benner would disagree with this. SO do I.
If you look at his mechanical translation, he agrees with me, words have one meaning all the time. Martin Luther also did the same thing in German Bible.
I agree slang exists in Hebrew, idioms, etc, but this is the normal decaying process of language. One should work in an ideal framework as GOD words is pure, refined in a fire seven times. Hebrew is the mother of all languages for a reason, as its unspoiled mostly than other languages.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 5, 2020 23:05:26 GMT -5
Why is it necessary to consider this paelo-Hebrew Do you think it tells a different message – are you saying in fact that the Torah has never been accurately translated?Because it is the original Hebrew as you have said. The letters in the words tell you the meaning of the words. The letters might even give you clues to the grammar rules. God preserved this older Hebrew inside the modern Hebrew. Why? To hide its deeper message perhaps, stop bad people changing the Bible words. The torah with its Hebrew letters is accurate. Jews saw to that. The message from those words may be different. I admit – the Rabbinic studies are focused upon the text as they stand from the 6th Century BC – the Post Exile Writings – I think I know why(Wiki – Biblical Hebrew) Vowel and cantillation marks were added to the older consonantal layer of the Bible between 600 CE and the beginning of the 10th century. The scholars who preserved the pronunciation of the Bibles were known as the Masoretes. Paleo-Hebrew has no vowels – they did NOT appear until the 6th century BC Therefore – the post-exile text are the first – TRANSLATION of the paleo-Hebrew It is the first TRASLATION to include vowels It is as clean as it comes - straight out of 6th century BC I gave you a web-site to an Interlinear English Hebrew Text That text is available with and without vowels – check it out The flying Scroll is a great example – change the vowels and the Flying scroll is become a flying scud missile with a lead incased FIRE that laid waste to the land – (nuclear missile?)
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