Post by rob on Jul 28, 2023 4:45:52 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Dave" You claim the words of the serpent are a lie
Rob" as I said in my earlier post, Jesus is speaking " Joh 8:44 ...there is no truth in him.
Hence the devil lies all the time, making a falsehood of truth is a lie about telling the truth.
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Dave" Once you buy into a lie – you must deny a lot of scripture to keep your doctrine safe
Rob" Satan had opportunities to repent, but refused.
Dave" I am a Jewish favoring Christian – I do not believe that the only option for sin is mortal death and eventual second death in the Lake of Fire
Rob" There are limits upon God's grace, relative to the creature's free will.
1) Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
2) Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
3) Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
4)Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
5) 1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
The limits of forgiveness rest entirely on the wicked one whose conscience no longer listens to God.
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Dave" YES – you say nonsense and I want the scripture that validate your words
Rob" Mr 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
What causes an unclean spirit in a man?
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Mt 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man,
Mt 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Mr 1:26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Mr 5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
These verses suggest to me the devils can give the man possessed by them a hard time, even death maybe?
Dave" Now you say your satan was helping God facilitate His Will upon earth
Rob" Jesus was to be an olah offering, not crucified upon a stake.
Dave" however satanas cannot force anyone to do anything –
ROb" What about humans with an unclean spirit? They are more or less possessed by the spirit.
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Dave" Explain how your assumption fits with scripture
Rom 5:13 For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law.
Rob" This refers to laws for sin-offering, and these did not come into being until required, ie when Adam sinned, Jesus offered to His Father to be the sin-offering for Adam's eternal death.
Dave" You are trying your best to contradict scripture – not acceptable
ROb" Not so, James calls the Father's laws, the royal torah.
Jesus' torah is about the sin-offering. Both torah laws are different in their functions.
What a verse on this?
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Two commandments here, the Father's and Jesus.
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Dave" Can you give another scriptural example where the metaphor is more real than the literal scripture?
ROb" Sure. the towla worm, is a literal life cycle of the worm that protects her young and dies feeding them, turning crimson red in the process. All these literals also have a simile - a second story that is more real than the life cycle of the towla worm.
Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Jesus is a simile of the towla worm.
There are a dozen verses regarding the simile.
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Dave" People who practice Covenant Theology depend on a series of assumptions to interpret scripture – depending on the assumptions they use the outcome interpretation can be wide ranging
Rob" Sorry Dave, I am a simple person and do not understand the terms Covenant Theology or dispensationalist believers.
Dave" Yes there is poetry within scripture - but all scripture is not an allagory
ROb" Hmm? Dunno Dave, I reckon we fail to understand the Lord's poetry and his use of similes. The Song of Songs is a good example, the entire scroll is riddled with riddles, so I am told. Pun intentional
Dave" You have told me more than once Ellen White tells you how to view scripture
Rob" I did? Where? Ellen White tells me how to read the torah in English, and this is very helpful.
Dave" No wonder you claim you do not need to learn to translate Hebrew to translate scripture
Rob" I doubt their are schools willing to translate Ancient Hebrew as Jeff Benner teaches it, and even he is swayed by modern speaking Hebrew grammar, which I think is mostly incorrect at handling ancient Hebrew, hence my problem. We simply make assumptions, as scholars.
Dave" When God opposed Balaam – did your satan enter God and force God to do things
Rob" Dave the Hebrew word "satan does not refer to some Named Being per se, the word simply means to "oppose" both verb and noun forms also mean "oppose".
The Named being as the "hey-satan" technically means "Behold the Being who is THE opposer", and this term is translated by English Bible as "Satan", which is a bad use of the Hebrew word, it's not meant to be a Name.
Yes God opposed Balaam.
That is what the word means.
Why did God oppose Balaam? Because Balaam is a sinning human.
The same also applies to the opposer, the cherub that sinned. He has not Bible Name, only the functional decriptor of the opposer. Like wise God also have no Name either. Such things is Greek thinking. In Hebrew the functional descriptors are based on function. Elohiym is a strong provider. Jesus in the OT, is called wonderful, etc.
Dave" You have no idea of what you speak
ROb" Explain the terms "chay and chayah" Dave, regarding the living salvation in man?
Dave" you have all these assumptions
ROb" And you fail to explain yourself to others in this forum, by being brief and silent about your witness.
Dave" YES – I absolutely deny Ezk 28 has anything to do with a fallen angel – it is a Catholic myth
ROb" How can it be Catholic myth?
You support trinity, and this is a Catholic myth, the term in not found in Scritpure.
Just what becomes a Catholic myth?
Dave" Easy – all you have to do is redefine the word
Rob" so you argue against Jeff Benner now? The word simply means "functional" not something moral.
Dave" WOW – what a change in doctrine from you
God made only a tov world – and when Eve sinned nothing happened – but when Adam sinned – all the world fell – became fallen
ROb" correct. Adam is the prince of the world, a sinning creature such as His Wife woudl be the death of her, but not the entire world He was a steward of.
Adam chose to lay down His life for her. ANd sinned.
Dave" God murdered the first born of Egypt – this includes innocent newborn babies
ROb" If this is hard for you, take it up with God, rather you make excuse to support a God of love. Yes it is a strange act, but according to the "aven", a doctrine that Catholics or Jews do not support in Scripture, the "propensities" in a new born baby will become the same sinning as their parents. So God functions in love to remove the probation of living, even to first born babies.
Dave" God can murder you immediately after you are born
Rob" I suggest you study the "Aven" Hebrew word, and see what "propensites do unto the 3rd and 4th generation"
Dave" Either you do not know your scripture – or you are deliberately misquoting it to mislead
Rob" I get your point Dave. Perhaps this is more about looking at why Scripture is written the way it is and why does the verses write this way?
Scripture cannot contradict itself.
Ex 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart,
Hmm? Is God looking into his heart? Or making the heart of Pharoah hard on purpose?
What does Scripture say of other humans, are there not clues?
Ex 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.
I see a free will decision here on behalf of Pharoah? He hardened his own heart.
DO you have any Jews who comment on this difference?
Why is the torah written from this view?
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DAVE" Of course you do – you are just unwilling to answer
So your version is that the nation of Israel got along well with all of their neighbors – were they especially friendly to the tribes they were performing genocide upon – and the other-gods of these neighboring people never bothered Israel in any way – everyone within the OT was nice and friendly with Israel
Rob" What? sorry no savvy what you are saying?
Dave" What I know about her comes straight from you
ROb" really? Than don't bring her up to mock me, you often quote GNostic portions you like to me, and I accept them, I do not bring up other Gnostic writings you might say are misleading to your theory of faith. You need to discuss the discussions we present; and not mock because you want to.
Dave" You made 14 post on that thread
ROb" did I? OK, so why bring up the thread again?
Dave" You say Allah is YHWY – or another Most High?
Rob" I didn't say that, I said the word Alah is spelt correctly in Hebrew as the Father Most High would be.
Walter Veith speaks much about the Allah in his videos.
Dave" How very verse you are with scripture – 28 years and have never read it all
ROb" sorry no savvy what you are saying?
Dave" No such animal
Rob" SO we have differences in opinion.
Dave" There is only one scriptural truth
ROb" That depends upon how you read a Hebrew idiom, and you read sometimes the idioms as literally.
Recognizing idioms is difficult.
For example, in Enlgish now we have a "fully sick swimmer" is a contradiction to English, but not to another language, English as adopted the idiom and given it the meaning from some other country.
Dave" But you deny it continues forever – it starts at different times and then stops – then wakes up and starts again
ROb" The only thing that is eternal Dave, is GOD.
DO you agree with this statement?
If any creature lives eternally with GOD, than their living is eternal.
DO you agree with this statement?
Dave" You should thank him for answering your questions that you said were too difficult for you - cheater
ROb" I do nto mock you Dave as a person, neither should you mock me as a person. I have answered all your questions, as I can.
Dave" You know that the ruwach of man (spirit of man) that Christians and Jews hold to be true – is nothing like your limited view
You do not even believe man has a spirit – you say man is empowered by the Holy Spirit
ROb" if it is so easy to present an "eternal spirit" given to mankind by GOD, as our own "spirit" than testify to the verses of Scripture Dave?
But I find Jews confuse the terms "ruwach" and "nepesh" and "nashamah" and make their own doctrines, based on traditions of men.
Dave" Please comment on Dillon's post about Zec 12
Rob" What did Dillon say?
Jeff Benner has a video on this Zec 12 verse
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Rob" This verse is speaking of the Father and his Son, who is pierced, and so the Hebrews look unto the Father because of His pierced Son.
Dave" Once you accept a lie – you are forced to deny non-supporting scripture
ROb" You have Gnostic writings that speak of the 3 forms as a Father as a Mother and as a Son, three expressions of the same ONE PERSON.
The torah Scriptures do not speak of GOD as ONE PERSON, but three persons of ONE GODHEAD.
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RobPP" Every time a creature sins, they fall from Grace.
Dave" Absolutely impossible –
Rob" Please explain your view of the sinning process than.
Dave" God still loves the sinner – it is the nature of God
ROb" Yes God loves the sinner, but not the sinning.
There is a difference.
Dave" He loves us even when we deny Him – refuse Him – ignores Him
How is it possible to fall from this?
Rob" Easy, by failing to respond to God.
The verse is here
Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
The wicked rise in pride, forget God and no longer are influenced by GOD and His power, hence they themselves refuse to accept the living power sustaining them.
Dave" How is it possible to fall from this?
Rob" Easy, by failing to hear the voice of GOD, with a seared conscience.
Dave" How is it possible God’s love for you will ever stop?
Rob correct God's love never stops. You stop responding to God's love.
Dave" What a harmful teaching you have – even your angels fall
ROb" you say the war in heaven, the bad things angels did, are chained up awaiting to cease living? How is that fair?
How do sinless beings view God, if the sinning creature is locked away in chains? DO you have other sinless creatures with free will? No, so your God cannot create billions of other sinless creatures with free will, only man is the first with free will, and for some reason this free will has to be tested so the man actually sins.
What a harmful teaching you have Dave. You do not have a God of love at all, but one that kills and murders innocent babies, even. And cannot create without entropy and natural dying.
Dave" He loves us even when we deny Him – refuse Him – ignores Him
Rob" Yes but is there a limit to this ignoring GOD? Suppose we die ignoring GOD? do we can another chance to respond in repentance to God?
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Dave" ABSOLUTE SATANIC RUBBISH promoted by Rome and their Fallen Angels
Rob" OK, so what view do you hold to Dave?
Why is the archon, a mere creature, thrown into the lake of fire, if it does no moral sins, and has no free will? Explain this.
Dave" YES – possession is very real indeed
Many times it is seen as a mental health issue – end result – these possessed people become dysfunctional – not helpful to society
Rob" DO you acknowledge the unclean spirit actually possess the human, destroying them, their living and thus really killing them, stopping them from seeking God and His salvation?
Dave" Rarely – is it as demonic as Hollywood likes to make it
Rob" SO the unclean spirits Jesus cast out was what? according to you? mere archons playing around?
Dave" Of course possession is real – BUT – your satan does not possess all humanity – man is perfectly capable of being evil all by himself.
No your satan god of evil does not rule the minds of all mankind.
Rob" so some humans but not all humans? Whose playing games here? Jesus said he came to cast out the prince of the world.
The prince rules the humans , some more or less, but rules them all the same. Unless they choose another ruler like Jesus to rule over them.
Dave" Man lives in the archon’s domain – this is their world - and as per Gen 3:15
ROb" Adam was the prince of the world once, not the archons from the beginning of this world.
Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation,
The one act of Adam as our prince, fail and this wrought condemnation to all of his world, including his children, thus the prince of the world (archon Satan) came to be the prince of the world, until Jesus took the crown from him by dying the death on the Cross. The archon prince is no longer prince of the world. Jesus is the true prince.
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Dave" God ordered the hit / test / contest upon Job – and sent satan to do the dirty job
Rob" You are saying a sinner has no hedge, no salvation banner over him, and from WHOM? Whom does GOD protect the sinner from? hence require a hedge?
From natural creatures called archons who naturally test humans? Hardly don't you think so?
And why is this archon telling God not to put a hedge around Job? Or is this some good angel seeking to prosecute Job for sins, the prosecutor is willing to inflict upon Job, a conflict of interest on behalf of a prosecutor?
Dave" God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden and human nature took its course
Rob" So there is no real choosing of sin is there? The natural archons talk and the rest of history? Makes a mockery of the first commandment, have no false elohiym powers before my face? Implies there are false elohiym powers before God's face? Doesn't it? and your archons as mere natural creatures without free will does not cut it Dave. But free will sinning angels might. Catholic invention. Pardon. FUnny I read this from Ezekiel without Catholic influence. I also read aven too, meaning what it means. Also cela rock. What church understands Jesus as the cela rock? None.
Dave" (yester ra) is not aven (an evil propensity) but it can lead to it
Rob" yester ra, does not exist as this term in Hebrew, but aven does. DO you always, like Jews make up expressions from traditions of men?
Dave" All the archon / Principalities / Jinn / demons / shedim do is feed our desire – our worldly desires
Rob" and the archons do NOT possess some humans?
No need to possess a human if self is ruling over him, is there? after all he is lost to hell. Only really need to tempt the saved ones like Job.
Dave" all keep us sidetracked – all keep us away from devotion to the Holy Spirit
ROb" I am puzzled? "all keep us away from devotion to the Holy Spirit" really, is the HS that important?
I would say it differently
all keep us away from devotion to Jesus.
No man is saved except by Jesus. ANd his spirit sent to us via the HS.
Dave" The Hypostasis of the Archons
Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.
ROb" I see. you follow the Gnostic torah rather than the True Torah of God.
Dave" 2nd Law of Thermodynamics = entropy – necessary for the cycles of nature to function
Rob" entropy is NOT necessary for cycles to function.
You have a God creating a flawed world.
Dave" Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water.
Rob" So this is your view of Creation, choas and the choas of entropy required for creation?
I see this as a planet with sinning angels on it, hence formless and void, and GOD coming to the waters to place a new creation over the world.
Why do you place these on your post?
"Finally, after 500,000 years, the .
"380,000 years after the Big Bang, this was actually a slow, gradual process that took"
"Even the delay in light formation is in agreement with current science"
"WEDD + FD-WEDT – Earth began as a Gas giant protoplanet with planetoid Pangea at its core"
Rob" really Dave, so many weird theories posted into your post, so you believe in all this above?
Dave" Plants before the sun – cyanobacteria – need minimal light - produce O2 – the oldest fossils every discovered
Rob" Why you even mix evolution ideas with Creation?
Dave" Perhaps this is when our sun ignited and the sun and reflecting moon became visible through the gas giant atm firmament above
Rob" I thought you read Scripture as it reads?
Dave" chaos - plants before the sun - Swims – flys - crawls - on land – man
same order as evolution – How could any scientist not see this ORDER of creation
Rob" I am missing what you are saying here?
Dave" Eden never fell – Eden never corrupted – Adam and Eve were relocated from Eden to world
Eden still exist – Enoch equated Heaven 3 with Eden awaiting the righteous
Rabbi Friedman says Eve stepped DOWN into the lower world from Eden
ROb" Wow, so many weird theories to mine and most other major religions out there.
All religions I know of speak of Adam and Eve sinning in Eden, and Eden was on the earth.
God took Eden back to heaven after the Great Flood came, hence the evidence I surmise is the big hole in Israel with the dead sea, and the Sodom a city with others around the dead sea, was once Eden. some 300 feet of land is missing as well.
Dave" As I said I love it. Thank You
How can Robert read this and deny the Trinity?
ROb" You do not have a trinity Dave. Your Gnostic torah speak of 3 expressions of one person who is father, mother and son.
''You violate the common sense of the torah that speaks of a Father and a Son. And stories to Abram, sacrifice your one and only son. How is Isaac an expression of Abram, the father?
Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
5 Every word of God is pure:
Explain the verse here with ruwach, eloah, imrah and ben?
Ps 2:7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Explain this verse, how can the LORD in this day born his Son?
Shalom
Dave" You claim the words of the serpent are a lie
Rob" as I said in my earlier post, Jesus is speaking " Joh 8:44 ...there is no truth in him.
Hence the devil lies all the time, making a falsehood of truth is a lie about telling the truth.
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Dave" Once you buy into a lie – you must deny a lot of scripture to keep your doctrine safe
Rob" Satan had opportunities to repent, but refused.
Dave" I am a Jewish favoring Christian – I do not believe that the only option for sin is mortal death and eventual second death in the Lake of Fire
Rob" There are limits upon God's grace, relative to the creature's free will.
1) Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
2) Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
3) Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
4)Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
5) 1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
The limits of forgiveness rest entirely on the wicked one whose conscience no longer listens to God.
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Dave" YES – you say nonsense and I want the scripture that validate your words
Rob" Mr 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
What causes an unclean spirit in a man?
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Mt 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man,
Mt 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Mr 1:26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Mr 5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
These verses suggest to me the devils can give the man possessed by them a hard time, even death maybe?
Dave" Now you say your satan was helping God facilitate His Will upon earth
Rob" Jesus was to be an olah offering, not crucified upon a stake.
Dave" however satanas cannot force anyone to do anything –
ROb" What about humans with an unclean spirit? They are more or less possessed by the spirit.
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Dave" Explain how your assumption fits with scripture
Rom 5:13 For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law.
Rob" This refers to laws for sin-offering, and these did not come into being until required, ie when Adam sinned, Jesus offered to His Father to be the sin-offering for Adam's eternal death.
Dave" You are trying your best to contradict scripture – not acceptable
ROb" Not so, James calls the Father's laws, the royal torah.
Jesus' torah is about the sin-offering. Both torah laws are different in their functions.
What a verse on this?
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Two commandments here, the Father's and Jesus.
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Dave" Can you give another scriptural example where the metaphor is more real than the literal scripture?
ROb" Sure. the towla worm, is a literal life cycle of the worm that protects her young and dies feeding them, turning crimson red in the process. All these literals also have a simile - a second story that is more real than the life cycle of the towla worm.
Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Jesus is a simile of the towla worm.
There are a dozen verses regarding the simile.
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Dave" People who practice Covenant Theology depend on a series of assumptions to interpret scripture – depending on the assumptions they use the outcome interpretation can be wide ranging
Rob" Sorry Dave, I am a simple person and do not understand the terms Covenant Theology or dispensationalist believers.
Dave" Yes there is poetry within scripture - but all scripture is not an allagory
ROb" Hmm? Dunno Dave, I reckon we fail to understand the Lord's poetry and his use of similes. The Song of Songs is a good example, the entire scroll is riddled with riddles, so I am told. Pun intentional
Dave" You have told me more than once Ellen White tells you how to view scripture
Rob" I did? Where? Ellen White tells me how to read the torah in English, and this is very helpful.
Dave" No wonder you claim you do not need to learn to translate Hebrew to translate scripture
Rob" I doubt their are schools willing to translate Ancient Hebrew as Jeff Benner teaches it, and even he is swayed by modern speaking Hebrew grammar, which I think is mostly incorrect at handling ancient Hebrew, hence my problem. We simply make assumptions, as scholars.
Dave" When God opposed Balaam – did your satan enter God and force God to do things
Rob" Dave the Hebrew word "satan does not refer to some Named Being per se, the word simply means to "oppose" both verb and noun forms also mean "oppose".
The Named being as the "hey-satan" technically means "Behold the Being who is THE opposer", and this term is translated by English Bible as "Satan", which is a bad use of the Hebrew word, it's not meant to be a Name.
Yes God opposed Balaam.
That is what the word means.
Why did God oppose Balaam? Because Balaam is a sinning human.
The same also applies to the opposer, the cherub that sinned. He has not Bible Name, only the functional decriptor of the opposer. Like wise God also have no Name either. Such things is Greek thinking. In Hebrew the functional descriptors are based on function. Elohiym is a strong provider. Jesus in the OT, is called wonderful, etc.
Dave" You have no idea of what you speak
ROb" Explain the terms "chay and chayah" Dave, regarding the living salvation in man?
Dave" you have all these assumptions
ROb" And you fail to explain yourself to others in this forum, by being brief and silent about your witness.
Dave" YES – I absolutely deny Ezk 28 has anything to do with a fallen angel – it is a Catholic myth
ROb" How can it be Catholic myth?
You support trinity, and this is a Catholic myth, the term in not found in Scritpure.
Just what becomes a Catholic myth?
Dave" Easy – all you have to do is redefine the word
Rob" so you argue against Jeff Benner now? The word simply means "functional" not something moral.
Dave" WOW – what a change in doctrine from you
God made only a tov world – and when Eve sinned nothing happened – but when Adam sinned – all the world fell – became fallen
ROb" correct. Adam is the prince of the world, a sinning creature such as His Wife woudl be the death of her, but not the entire world He was a steward of.
Adam chose to lay down His life for her. ANd sinned.
Dave" God murdered the first born of Egypt – this includes innocent newborn babies
ROb" If this is hard for you, take it up with God, rather you make excuse to support a God of love. Yes it is a strange act, but according to the "aven", a doctrine that Catholics or Jews do not support in Scripture, the "propensities" in a new born baby will become the same sinning as their parents. So God functions in love to remove the probation of living, even to first born babies.
Dave" God can murder you immediately after you are born
Rob" I suggest you study the "Aven" Hebrew word, and see what "propensites do unto the 3rd and 4th generation"
Dave" Either you do not know your scripture – or you are deliberately misquoting it to mislead
Rob" I get your point Dave. Perhaps this is more about looking at why Scripture is written the way it is and why does the verses write this way?
Scripture cannot contradict itself.
Ex 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart,
Hmm? Is God looking into his heart? Or making the heart of Pharoah hard on purpose?
What does Scripture say of other humans, are there not clues?
Ex 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.
I see a free will decision here on behalf of Pharoah? He hardened his own heart.
DO you have any Jews who comment on this difference?
Why is the torah written from this view?
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DAVE" Of course you do – you are just unwilling to answer
So your version is that the nation of Israel got along well with all of their neighbors – were they especially friendly to the tribes they were performing genocide upon – and the other-gods of these neighboring people never bothered Israel in any way – everyone within the OT was nice and friendly with Israel
Rob" What? sorry no savvy what you are saying?
Dave" What I know about her comes straight from you
ROb" really? Than don't bring her up to mock me, you often quote GNostic portions you like to me, and I accept them, I do not bring up other Gnostic writings you might say are misleading to your theory of faith. You need to discuss the discussions we present; and not mock because you want to.
Dave" You made 14 post on that thread
ROb" did I? OK, so why bring up the thread again?
Dave" You say Allah is YHWY – or another Most High?
Rob" I didn't say that, I said the word Alah is spelt correctly in Hebrew as the Father Most High would be.
Walter Veith speaks much about the Allah in his videos.
Dave" How very verse you are with scripture – 28 years and have never read it all
ROb" sorry no savvy what you are saying?
Dave" No such animal
Rob" SO we have differences in opinion.
Dave" There is only one scriptural truth
ROb" That depends upon how you read a Hebrew idiom, and you read sometimes the idioms as literally.
Recognizing idioms is difficult.
For example, in Enlgish now we have a "fully sick swimmer" is a contradiction to English, but not to another language, English as adopted the idiom and given it the meaning from some other country.
Dave" But you deny it continues forever – it starts at different times and then stops – then wakes up and starts again
ROb" The only thing that is eternal Dave, is GOD.
DO you agree with this statement?
If any creature lives eternally with GOD, than their living is eternal.
DO you agree with this statement?
Dave" You should thank him for answering your questions that you said were too difficult for you - cheater
ROb" I do nto mock you Dave as a person, neither should you mock me as a person. I have answered all your questions, as I can.
Dave" You know that the ruwach of man (spirit of man) that Christians and Jews hold to be true – is nothing like your limited view
You do not even believe man has a spirit – you say man is empowered by the Holy Spirit
ROb" if it is so easy to present an "eternal spirit" given to mankind by GOD, as our own "spirit" than testify to the verses of Scripture Dave?
But I find Jews confuse the terms "ruwach" and "nepesh" and "nashamah" and make their own doctrines, based on traditions of men.
Dave" Please comment on Dillon's post about Zec 12
Rob" What did Dillon say?
Jeff Benner has a video on this Zec 12 verse
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Rob" This verse is speaking of the Father and his Son, who is pierced, and so the Hebrews look unto the Father because of His pierced Son.
Dave" Once you accept a lie – you are forced to deny non-supporting scripture
ROb" You have Gnostic writings that speak of the 3 forms as a Father as a Mother and as a Son, three expressions of the same ONE PERSON.
The torah Scriptures do not speak of GOD as ONE PERSON, but three persons of ONE GODHEAD.
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RobPP" Every time a creature sins, they fall from Grace.
Dave" Absolutely impossible –
Rob" Please explain your view of the sinning process than.
Dave" God still loves the sinner – it is the nature of God
ROb" Yes God loves the sinner, but not the sinning.
There is a difference.
Dave" He loves us even when we deny Him – refuse Him – ignores Him
How is it possible to fall from this?
Rob" Easy, by failing to respond to God.
The verse is here
Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
The wicked rise in pride, forget God and no longer are influenced by GOD and His power, hence they themselves refuse to accept the living power sustaining them.
Dave" How is it possible to fall from this?
Rob" Easy, by failing to hear the voice of GOD, with a seared conscience.
Dave" How is it possible God’s love for you will ever stop?
Rob correct God's love never stops. You stop responding to God's love.
Dave" What a harmful teaching you have – even your angels fall
ROb" you say the war in heaven, the bad things angels did, are chained up awaiting to cease living? How is that fair?
How do sinless beings view God, if the sinning creature is locked away in chains? DO you have other sinless creatures with free will? No, so your God cannot create billions of other sinless creatures with free will, only man is the first with free will, and for some reason this free will has to be tested so the man actually sins.
What a harmful teaching you have Dave. You do not have a God of love at all, but one that kills and murders innocent babies, even. And cannot create without entropy and natural dying.
Dave" He loves us even when we deny Him – refuse Him – ignores Him
Rob" Yes but is there a limit to this ignoring GOD? Suppose we die ignoring GOD? do we can another chance to respond in repentance to God?
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Dave" ABSOLUTE SATANIC RUBBISH promoted by Rome and their Fallen Angels
Rob" OK, so what view do you hold to Dave?
Why is the archon, a mere creature, thrown into the lake of fire, if it does no moral sins, and has no free will? Explain this.
Dave" YES – possession is very real indeed
Many times it is seen as a mental health issue – end result – these possessed people become dysfunctional – not helpful to society
Rob" DO you acknowledge the unclean spirit actually possess the human, destroying them, their living and thus really killing them, stopping them from seeking God and His salvation?
Dave" Rarely – is it as demonic as Hollywood likes to make it
Rob" SO the unclean spirits Jesus cast out was what? according to you? mere archons playing around?
Dave" Of course possession is real – BUT – your satan does not possess all humanity – man is perfectly capable of being evil all by himself.
No your satan god of evil does not rule the minds of all mankind.
Rob" so some humans but not all humans? Whose playing games here? Jesus said he came to cast out the prince of the world.
The prince rules the humans , some more or less, but rules them all the same. Unless they choose another ruler like Jesus to rule over them.
Dave" Man lives in the archon’s domain – this is their world - and as per Gen 3:15
ROb" Adam was the prince of the world once, not the archons from the beginning of this world.
Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation,
The one act of Adam as our prince, fail and this wrought condemnation to all of his world, including his children, thus the prince of the world (archon Satan) came to be the prince of the world, until Jesus took the crown from him by dying the death on the Cross. The archon prince is no longer prince of the world. Jesus is the true prince.
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Dave" God ordered the hit / test / contest upon Job – and sent satan to do the dirty job
Rob" You are saying a sinner has no hedge, no salvation banner over him, and from WHOM? Whom does GOD protect the sinner from? hence require a hedge?
From natural creatures called archons who naturally test humans? Hardly don't you think so?
And why is this archon telling God not to put a hedge around Job? Or is this some good angel seeking to prosecute Job for sins, the prosecutor is willing to inflict upon Job, a conflict of interest on behalf of a prosecutor?
Dave" God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden and human nature took its course
Rob" So there is no real choosing of sin is there? The natural archons talk and the rest of history? Makes a mockery of the first commandment, have no false elohiym powers before my face? Implies there are false elohiym powers before God's face? Doesn't it? and your archons as mere natural creatures without free will does not cut it Dave. But free will sinning angels might. Catholic invention. Pardon. FUnny I read this from Ezekiel without Catholic influence. I also read aven too, meaning what it means. Also cela rock. What church understands Jesus as the cela rock? None.
Dave" (yester ra) is not aven (an evil propensity) but it can lead to it
Rob" yester ra, does not exist as this term in Hebrew, but aven does. DO you always, like Jews make up expressions from traditions of men?
Dave" All the archon / Principalities / Jinn / demons / shedim do is feed our desire – our worldly desires
Rob" and the archons do NOT possess some humans?
No need to possess a human if self is ruling over him, is there? after all he is lost to hell. Only really need to tempt the saved ones like Job.
Dave" all keep us sidetracked – all keep us away from devotion to the Holy Spirit
ROb" I am puzzled? "all keep us away from devotion to the Holy Spirit" really, is the HS that important?
I would say it differently
all keep us away from devotion to Jesus.
No man is saved except by Jesus. ANd his spirit sent to us via the HS.
Dave" The Hypostasis of the Archons
Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.
ROb" I see. you follow the Gnostic torah rather than the True Torah of God.
Dave" 2nd Law of Thermodynamics = entropy – necessary for the cycles of nature to function
Rob" entropy is NOT necessary for cycles to function.
You have a God creating a flawed world.
Dave" Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water.
Rob" So this is your view of Creation, choas and the choas of entropy required for creation?
I see this as a planet with sinning angels on it, hence formless and void, and GOD coming to the waters to place a new creation over the world.
Why do you place these on your post?
"Finally, after 500,000 years, the .
"380,000 years after the Big Bang, this was actually a slow, gradual process that took"
"Even the delay in light formation is in agreement with current science"
"WEDD + FD-WEDT – Earth began as a Gas giant protoplanet with planetoid Pangea at its core"
Rob" really Dave, so many weird theories posted into your post, so you believe in all this above?
Dave" Plants before the sun – cyanobacteria – need minimal light - produce O2 – the oldest fossils every discovered
Rob" Why you even mix evolution ideas with Creation?
Dave" Perhaps this is when our sun ignited and the sun and reflecting moon became visible through the gas giant atm firmament above
Rob" I thought you read Scripture as it reads?
Dave" chaos - plants before the sun - Swims – flys - crawls - on land – man
same order as evolution – How could any scientist not see this ORDER of creation
Rob" I am missing what you are saying here?
Dave" Eden never fell – Eden never corrupted – Adam and Eve were relocated from Eden to world
Eden still exist – Enoch equated Heaven 3 with Eden awaiting the righteous
Rabbi Friedman says Eve stepped DOWN into the lower world from Eden
ROb" Wow, so many weird theories to mine and most other major religions out there.
All religions I know of speak of Adam and Eve sinning in Eden, and Eden was on the earth.
God took Eden back to heaven after the Great Flood came, hence the evidence I surmise is the big hole in Israel with the dead sea, and the Sodom a city with others around the dead sea, was once Eden. some 300 feet of land is missing as well.
Dave" As I said I love it. Thank You
How can Robert read this and deny the Trinity?
ROb" You do not have a trinity Dave. Your Gnostic torah speak of 3 expressions of one person who is father, mother and son.
''You violate the common sense of the torah that speaks of a Father and a Son. And stories to Abram, sacrifice your one and only son. How is Isaac an expression of Abram, the father?
Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
5 Every word of God is pure:
Explain the verse here with ruwach, eloah, imrah and ben?
Ps 2:7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Explain this verse, how can the LORD in this day born his Son?
Shalom