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Post by rob on Aug 16, 2023 5:41:34 GMT -5
Greetings Dillon I don't have any problems with interacting with you. Thanks for your post. Dillon" I would love to hear a Christian explain why all the unfullfilled prophesies of scripture no longer matterRob" There are many prophecies still future, many our salvation depends upon. What prophecies did you have in mind? Dillon" Since all you want to discuss is satan,Rob" SDA people do not normally discuss Satan, I only raised this with Dave because he sees Satanas as a different creature to us. Dillon" Your saying the devil did not sin from the beginning, and in fact never sins like humans sin.ROb" Hmm? Actually I said the devil sinned from the beginning, and in fact sins like humans sin. The Apostle John says this, and wrote it in 1 John 3:8 Dillon" The Beast of Revelation did not sin like a human in the beginning and does not sin like a human anytime Rob" I see, so why does John say the devil sinneth from the beginning, if this statement is not correct? Dillon" Robert, how are these animals to eat?ROb" All animals were originally herbivores. Dillon" Obviously God’s Royal Laws were written for man. It has nothing to do with the animal kingdom.Rob" I see. Why can't animals deal with carnal natures just as humans do as a result of the curse from Adam's sin? Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. Isn't this verse speaking of a restoration of animals to their original designs, nor hurt, means they become herbivores again. I see this as animals following love rules, as the royal law describes. But I do get you point about todays animals are just as bad as human carnal natures are. Dillon" Dave says, the beast ‘sinned against the entirety’ John says, your satan was a sinner from the beginning. God called it all tov.ROb" I see. Dillon" Your satan rewrote the DNA of all these creatures.ROb" I have never said that. Dillon" s there so reason you say, ‘so death passed upon all men,’ means that death pass onto all animals of all types
Question, how does this mean death came to all the living? The verse says man!ROb" Great question Dillon Question" WHy did God curse the ground, if the ground didn't sinThou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In fact many plants run amuck, because Adam sinned, bit unfair to all plants don't you think? Dillon" Why do you teach non-scriptureal doctrines to others?Rob" I am not aware of teaching any doctrine? That is a big word with a big meaning. Doctrines are huge themes put together as a topic on something. I have not taught any doctrine that I know of, made many discussion to Dave over the years, mostly about what the Hebrew word "SATAN" means. We also discussed a few other Hebrew words, but not numerous themes making a big topic. Our SDA church has 28 fundamentals, I suppose this is a word game for doctrines? Look forward to hearing from you DIllon. -------------------------------------------------------- Greetings Dave I am a little speechless from reading your replies. I will get back to you. "Dave" Evidently you did not read my replyROb" Again you didn't answer my question. The LXX translate 1 Kings11:23 with the Hebrew word Satan into the Greek word Satanas. This is the only example of Satanas in the Greek OT. All other Hebrew words with Satan receive the Grrek word Devil, diabolos. This proves the Being called be termed diabolos, Satan or Satanas, is all the same creature. DO you agree with the LXX on this idea? The LXX do not consider Satanas as a different creature to Satan, and why they chose Satanas for 1 Kings 11:23, is any bodies guess. Now instead to saying " Evidently you did not read my reply" how about answering the studies, I raise with you with the LXX translations. It's a big day driving back from work, I will get refreshed in the morning. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 16, 2023 8:18:36 GMT -5
I don't have any problems with interacting with you. Thanks for your post.
Dillon" I would love to hear a Christian explain why all the unfullfilled prophesies of scripture no longer matter Rob" There are many prophecies still future, many our salvation depends upon.
What prophecies did you have in mind?
Why do you avoid the question – do you NOT know your scripture? What are the unfulfilled prophesies of scripture? Dillion could not be more specific wiith you, but you pretend you do not understand so you don;t have to answer.
Israel at the center of the end of days? DUH Covenant theology that Ellen Whitr teaches vrs Dispensation which mainstream Christianity hold ---------------------------------------------------------
Dillon" Since all you want to discuss is satan, Rob" SDA people do not normally discuss Satan, I only raised this with Dave because he sees Satanas as a different creature to us.
Correct – your entire mission here is to defend your faith in satan as a god of evil ----------------------------------------
Dillon" The Beast of Revelation did not sin like a human in the beginning and does not sin like a human anytime Rob" I see, so why does John say the devil sinneth from the beginning, if this statement is not correct? Yes it is correct – the Beast sinned against the entirity Please list all the laws for Beast that the Beast transgressed Please list the laws and commandments for animals to obey
Dillon" Robert, how are these animals to eat? ROb" All animals were originally herbivores. Where is your answer? Why do you teach that all animals are forced to sin - or die of starvation
Dillon" Obviously God’s Royal Laws were written for man. It has nothing to do with the animal kingdom. Rob" I see. Why can't animals deal with carnal natures just as humans do as a result of the curse from Adam's sin?
Where does it say Jesus came to save the pigs and squirrls?
Then answer Dillion’s question to you Question, why did your satan only effect carnivorous and not herbavors? I thought this a good question – I didn’t see your answer Did your satan only corrupt ½ of creation or all of it as you teach?
Dillon" Your satan rewrote the DNA of all these creatures. ROb" I have never said that. You say this all the time – your satan changed their DNA
Dillon" s there so reason you say, ‘so death passed upon all men,’ means that death pass onto all animals of all types
Question, how does this mean death came to all the living? The verse says man! ROb" Great question Dillon Where is your answer – do you have one?
Question" WHy did God curse the ground, if the ground didn't sin Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
To make the Contest Challenging – to make life hard for man – no more paradise of Eden
In fact many plants run amuck, because Adam sinned, bit unfair to all plants don't you think? No new creation after Gen 1:31 Thorny Roses always existed – created that way in the beginning Why do you teach that your satan changed all of God’s creation -
Dillon" Why do you teach non-scriptureal doctrines to others? Rob" I am not aware of teaching any doctrine?
You absolute support Ellen White satanism – you push it here with every post What of Catholic Catachism on Fallen Angels - what of Ezk 28 your satan rose up in rebellion hates and opposes God (but offer no verses as proof - just religious assumptions)
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Greetings Dave "Dave" Evidently you did not read my reply ROb" Again you didn't answer my question.
You posted your research on satanas
The LXX
For 4 years you have mocked Greek – Hebrew Torah only Now you flip flop if you think you can make a valid Robert word game
Proof you are a man of strong conviction!
What kind of meaning did they consider "devil" to mean?
Thew Jews of the OT had more devils than you can count - 33 other-gods + all their demons Plus the 99% trying their best to destroy Israel as a nation, as a people, and as a religion
You will not discuss them or even admit they are real - you only have one angel named the devil
What kind of meaning did they consider "devil" to mean?
Why did your 1611 Recieved text translate it as satan?
Dillion There is no use discussing creation with Robert – he denies NT scripture in favor of Ellen White doctrines.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Robert and Ellen White deny this passage Because of satan all of God’s creation fell – now we only have a satan's fallen world – a world of ra So when science uncovers the creator – they are actually discovering satan’s hand in God’s tov creation
they glorified him not as God, - evidently this means satan is god for the SDA
Robert and Ellen White could not disagree more with this Jewish belief
Their weak god lost control of his creation to powerful satan that changed God’s Plan for His Creation against God’s Will.
When Eve lied - nothing happened When Eve took a bite - nothing happened But when Adam ate of the fruit - satan changed all of God's tov creation into our flawed world.
Earthquakes are ra - therefore Robert teaches the earth never had one until Adam sinned Before Adam sinned there were only vegeterian sharks and lions Before Adam sinned there was no death of anykind to any plant or creature
Scripture says - man was created perfect in all his way until sin was found within him Robert used to argue man no sense of desire, no ambition, or motovation (yester ra) Robert now says - God created man full of 'aven' - evil, wicked, debotchery Just more flip floppen Robert - if you do not know what you believe you will believe anything
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Post by rob on Aug 16, 2023 16:36:02 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
"Why do you avoid the question – do you NOT know your scripture?
Rob" There is much prophecy in Scripture for the end of time.
Mt 24:4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
The first prophecy spoken by Jesus is many are deceived.
Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
This prophecy is very important to me, and SDA people, as well as Hebrew people. One has to also know Daniel prophecies to unlock the mysteries here.
Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
THis prophecy begins here
Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Here is the very last prophecies that Jesus spoke about, just before His Second coming. Now this prophecy is not well known to SDA people, of the world that I know of. Marion Berry is one who made a major study on this prophecy in recent times, has since passed away, and her messages are very difficult to get from the Internet for free.
Now you ask is the Nation of Israel in Israel the center of these prophecies? Hmm? Yes in many respects, for the the abomination that causes desolation also affects Jewish worship of Jesus as well. But these signs are also global, all over the world, as the great system of Babylon is set up.
It's had to imagine now but the Church of Israel will one day keep the Sunday Sabbath day of rest as sacred and abandon the holy Sabbath rest on Saturday. Such things also happened long ago by the Israel people.
Eze 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun
Having your back facing west and your face facing east, meant turning from Sabbath day to Sunday, and this very thing happens within the Sanctuary, yet to be established again as a temple on the earth. Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Same prophecy here, some see the time here as literal months.
Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
KIlling, torturing saints just because they worship God is the agenda by this power in the last days.
I would imagine my understanding of prophecy is different to yours Dave. And even Dillon. And it's such a huge topic, I do not really see any profit in discussing this.
However You can discuss prophecies concerning Israel and I am happy to read of them in the torah.
Dave" Correct – your entire mission here is to defend your faith in satan as a god of evil ROb" there you go again Dave. You are the only person in the entire world I have met with such a theory, it was my misson to discover what your theory was about. In our faith, the Opposer gets very little focus, I spend my time with learning abut Jesus, and Him only.
Dave" Yes it is correct – the Beast sinned against the entirity ROb" OK so why does John use the term "sinned" making comparing to "sin like humans sin" if the beast creatures do not SIN like humans sin, ie morally sin using their free will.
You are creating a very different meaning for the word "SIN", and you are sticking to your word game, making the word "SIN" mean both "morally sin for humans" and "immorally sin for animals"?
In your defence, as Dillon pointed out, if a lion kills a deer in order to eat it, is this a "moral sin"? Arrh no, one might term this a "immoral sin" because the lion is not with free will to follow God and thus also intentionally transgress His laws, of thou shalt not kill.
So now we have to discuss, is your beast really a natural animal, like other natural animals?
The answer is no.
Your creatute was created in heaven to begin with, not on earth. Your creature has powers no creatures on earth have. Enoch ( a book you follow) calls the creatures watchers. Suggesting they are angels.
You have to prove to me your archon creatures are really natural animals from the torah.
Icke video speak of the reptile people, how nice, making suggestions they are natural animals after all?
Dave" Why do you teach that all animals are forced to sin - or die of starvation ROb" The female mozzie was forced to " immorally sin" because the plant nectar was not nutritious enough for her babies so sought blood instead.
The lion found it easier to eat meat than to find nutritious grass, wich no longer exists. God programmed many animals to adapt and make solutions to the world they found to live in, this is not evolution, it is simply natural adaption, a design feature already wired into the animals' DNA.
Dave" Where does it say Jesus came to save the pigs and squirrls? Rob" Not all animals are saved
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Only humans have free will on earth, and their "spirit" is recorded upon death.
Dillon" Then answer Dillion’s question to you Question, why did your satan only effect carnivorous and not herbavors? I thought this a good question – I didn’t see your answer Did your satan only corrupt ½ of creation or all of it as you teach? Rob" You do not follow the torah very well. Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
The mischief maker only affected Human Womb, not all other animal wombs. The penalty for this is death for death.
Most of the creation and it's holy encoded DNA is controlled by GOD and always by GOD, so the torah does not detail how much, if any spoiling of the spoiler was done to creation. The curse of the ground, the rise of weeds, by God when Adam sinned, suggests to me most the RA upon animals and plants came from Adam's sijn, and the consequence of this sin, God withdrawing hIs powers from creation, ie entropy came in. Dave" You say this all the time – your satan changed their DNA ROb" I said the mischief maker spoiled the DNA of the humans that sinned. I have never said anything about spoiling other creatures.
Dave" Where is your answer – do you have one? ROb" Adam was prince over creation, Do you understand what this means?
Dave" To make the Contest Challenging – to make life hard for man – no more paradise of Eden ROb" you belittle sin and the consequences of sin.
If all animals naturally die and are naturally eaten, than life for the animals were already challenging and hard, so your words are contradictory
Dave" Thorny Roses always existed – created that way in the beginning ROb" not necessary to protect yourself if no animals ate you disrespectfully? Where is your idea of peace over the entire creation? You don't teach a creation of love do you?
Life was already hard and challenging for the rose, is bogus Dave.
Dave" what of Ezk 28 your satan rose up in rebellion hates and opposes God (but offer no verses as proof - just religious assumptions) Rob" You agree with me the word STN means oppose/opposer
SO why did the LXX Jews translate the word always into DEVIL?
Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for a "Devil" against him.
So explain why the LXX even considered this meaning? How is God's messenger functioning as a Devil to Baalam? weird idea !
Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and the "Devil" standing at his right hand to "devil" him.
I asked you for the English word the LXX used here, but you refused to help me out.
Why do the LXX Jews not consider the STN noun and the STN verb as the same word meaning?
Obvious to me for all verses of this word, the English meanng has to be OPPOSE/OPPOSING/OPPOSER
NOT as LXX claim, Devil.
Care to explain why the LXX did this?
Dave" For 4 years you have mocked Greek – Hebrew Torah only Now you flip flop if you think you can make a valid Robert word game
Proof you are a man of strong conviction! ROb" Again you are not answering my questions, I am not trying to mock you, you are a Greek expert, please just answer my questions so I can understand why your theory is the way it is.
Dave" Thew Jews of the OT had more devils than you can count - 33 other-gods + all their demons Rob" Again that is nice, but not answering my question. Why did the LXX Jews translate all verses with STN into DEVIL? except one 1 Kings 11:23, into satanas.
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be "devils" unto me?
Again this is not really a good fit is it? Being an opposer is a much kinder meaning don't you think?
Dave" Why did your 1611 Recieved text translate it as satan? Rob" changing topic, do you have to do this? Maybe they read the OT hebrew?
Dave" Because of satan all of God’s creation fell – now we only have a satan's fallen world – a world of ra ROb" I have never said this Dave. Again your mocking me, again. Just answer the LXX questions.
Dave" But when Adam ate of the fruit - satan changed all of God's tov creation into our flawed world. ROb" Because Adam was prince over creation, not Eve. Masculine Hebrew.
Dave" Robert now says - God created man full of 'aven' - evil, wicked, debotchery ROb" Again I never said that. Mock me again. Look up Aven yourself. The word means your "potential" especially epi-genetic potential" not always BAD, so GOD made us with Aven, the potential within was originally GOOD.
Dave" Just more flip floppen Robert - if you do not know what you believe you will believe anything ROb" Especially if you do not study my studies, or study the word yourself, which you have not done. --------------------------------------
Answer my questions about the LXX Dave, your a Greek scholar
1) Why did the LXX chose devil for STN for all verses of STN except one? It's a terrible choice for a word, as I shown above.
2) Why did they choose a different word satanas for 1 King 11:23?
3) This Greek word satanas is the same word as STN in Hebrew, I do not see another creature here at all.
Nor can the word STN refer to any creature per se, as the word means to oppose, or opposer, so does not refer to a family of devils as your claim.
A family of opposers is a better fit for both humans, the hey-opposer, and the other contexts of all the verses, including the Lord's messenger. Now you discuss the LXX translators for me and other readers.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 16, 2023 23:06:55 GMT -5
"Why do you avoid the question – do you NOT know your scripture?
Rob" There is much prophecy in Scripture for the end of time.
Now you ask is the Nation of Israel in Israel the center of these prophecies? Hmm? Yes in many respects, for the the abomination that causes desolation also affects Jewish worship of Jesus as well. But these signs are also global, all over the world, as the great system of Babylon is set up.
However You can discuss prophecies concerning Israel and I am happy to read of them in the torah.
Fantastic – now answer questions asked of you = Israel at the center of the end of days? Covenant theology that Ellen White teaches vrs Dispensation which mainstream Christianity hold
Still waiting
Surely you watch his video and read his comments Why don;t you start by answer those question of 3 weeks ago
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Dave" Correct – your entire mission here is to defend your faith in satan as a god of evil ROb" there you go again Dave. You are the only person in the entire world I have met with such a theory,
You say you want to return to a more Jewish form of Christianity – BUT – you never bothered to learn Jewish theology Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord
Dave" Yes it is correct – the Beast sinned against the entirity ROb" OK so why does John use the term "sinned" You are creating a very different meaning for the word "SIN",
Sin = transgression of God’s law / God’s commandments There is no other definition – please tell us the laws for the Beast – what law for the beast did the Beast transgress?
In your defence, as Dillon pointed out, if a lion kills a deer in order to eat it, is this a "moral sin"? Arrh no, one might term this a "immoral sin" because the lion is not with free will to follow God and thus also intentionally transgress His laws, of thou shalt not kill.
First you argue that your ‘Royal law’ does not apply to beast Then you argue the ‘Royal law’ does apply to the Beast of Revelation Please make up your mind?
So now we have to discuss, is your beast really a natural animal, like other natural animals?
Nope created with some matter and some ethereal Not quite human – and not quite angel
Your creature has powers no creatures on earth have. Correct – they can manipulate nature on the small scale
Enoch ( book you follow) calls the creatures watchers. Suggesting they are angels. Correct they are the Sons of God of Gen 6 – 100% archon of the Beast
Icke video speak of the reptile people, how nice, making suggestions they are natural animals after all? Correct – some people call them demonic, some call them the serpent race, Islam calls them Jinn – The NT authors called the archon / principalities
Gen 3:1 But the serpent was shrewder than any animal of the field that Adonai Elohim made. Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
The Beast – the serpent race – we call devils and satanas are partially biological --------------------------------
God programmed many animals to adapt and make solutions to the world they found to live in, this is not evolution, it is simply natural adaption, a design feature already wired into the animals' DNA.
So your god did not make a tov creation after all your god made the flawed world
Dave" Where does it say Jesus came to save the pigs and squirrls? Rob" Not all animals are saved OH – what sin do animals do? What laws do they transgress?
Only humans have free will on earth, and their "spirit" is recorded upon death. Correct – only man has free will because we have a spirit We are more than just biology – we have a spirit Man = a duality - animal (yester ra) + spirit (yester tov)
Dillon" Then answer Dillion’s question to you Question, why did your satan only effect carnivorous and not herbavors? I thought this a good question – I didn’t see your answer Did your satan only corrupt ½ of creation or all of it as you teach? Rob" You do not follow the torah very well.
The mischief maker only affected Human Womb, not all other animal wombs. WAIT A MINUTE – you teach all creation changed after Adam sinned
The curse of the ground, the rise of weeds, by God when Adam sinned, suggests to me most the RA upon animals and plants came from Adam's sijn, and the consequence of this sin, God withdrawing hIs powers from creation, ie entropy came in.
If all animals naturally die and are naturally eaten, than life for the animals were already challenging and hard, so your words are contradictory Correct – I believe as you do – that sin corrupted Eden But the truth = the only thing that happened was a change of location – from the garden of Eden to the real world
Dave" You say this all the time – your satan changed their DNA ROb" I said the mischief maker spoiled the DNA Spoiled / changed = Robert’s word game
I have never said anything about spoiling other creatures. WAIT A MINUTE – you teach all creation changed after Adam sinned
You teach - No animal ever died until Gen 3 You teach – no carnivore was a carnivore until Gen 3 You teach – there were no earthquakes – or fires – or floods until Gen 3 You offered Don Patton as your go to guy – you watch all his videos -------------------------------
Dave" Thorny Roses always existed – created that way in the beginning ROb" not necessary to protect yourself if no animals ate you disrespectfully? Where is your idea of peace over the entire creation? You don't teach a creation of love do you?
God loves his creation – Becuase God's love is unrequited - do rocks love water? Do Rabbits love Bears? Do insects love as you describe? God’s creation was finely tuned to perfection to allow life to thrive – nature on works well when it is in-balance
Life was already hard and challenging for the rose, is bogus
You see – you see the whole planet as Eden that corrupted But the truth = the only thing that happened was a change of location – from the garden of Eden to the real world --------------------------------
Dave" what of Ezk 28 your satan rose up in rebellion hates and opposes God (but offer no verses as proof - just religious assumptions) Rob" You agree with me the word STN means oppose/opposer
There are 23 + 49 verses that use the word satan Please go through each one and demonstrate once and for all that your satan god hates and opposes God
You won’t – because you cannot – it will not support your teaching so you will not look there ------------------------------
SO why did the LXX Jews translate the word always into DEVIL?
I have told you and told you of the many problems with you Solo Scruptorum – received text – you fought me in every post
Care to explain why the LXX did this?
I did – you just read over it and didn’t pay it any attention Just how did the 70 think of this word? - It is a mind reading game You think translation is just easy anyone with your education can criticize Not only that – But what did the KJ translators think of this word - another mind reading game
How do you know the word wasn'y satan at first then some translator changed it after the fact -------------------------------------------------
Dave" For 4 years you have mocked Greek – Hebrew Torah only Now you flip flop if you think you can make a valid Robert word game from the LXX
Proof you are a man of strong conviction! ROb" Again you are not answering my questions, I am not trying to mock you, you are a Greek expert, please just answer my questions so I can understand why your theory is the way it is.
The LXX is not relevant – just because yo found a word – means nothing – it is a curiosity
(google)How many versions of the Septuagint are there? There are currently over 2,000 classified manuscripts of the Septuagint. The first list of Septuagint manuscripts was presented by Holmes and Parsons. Their edition ends with a full list of manuscripts known to them set out in the Annexes.
Does every version say the same? Does every version say the say about the devil
Dave" Why did your 1611 Recieved text translate it as satan? Rob" changing topic, do you have to do this? It is exactly the same question – just 1850 years later.
Maybe they read the OT hebrew? You know this is not true – why do you say such BS
Dave" Because of satan all of God’s creation fell – now we only have a satan's fallen world – a world of ra ROb" I have never said this Dave.
So now you deny that you teach all the world fell after Adam sinned – now we have a flawed world When did your teaching change
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Post by rob on Aug 17, 2023 3:34:08 GMT -5
Greetings Dave" Dave" Israel at the center of the end of days? Rob" What prophecy do you know where Israel is at the center of the last days?
Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Maybe this one? Magog is a place in Israel isn't it?
Dave" You say you want to return to a more Jewish form of Christianity – BUT – you never bothered to learn Jewish theology Rob" I never said that, Hebrew Christianity, yes, not Jewish, what does Jewish mean these days? Many different things to many people.
Dave" what law for the beast did the Beast transgress?
I will Jesus answer that question"
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
10) No coveting 6) No murderering 9) No lying - making false witness
Also from temptation with Jesus:
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
1) No false elohiym powers to be worshipped.
From the list they are clearly from the royal laws, the ten commandments that define sin, as transgression of law.
Dave" First you argue that your ‘Royal law’ does not apply to beast Then you argue the ‘Royal law’ does apply to the Beast of Revelation Please make up your mind? Rob" Why do you ask, I will let John answer you
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
Clearly to be a child of the devil, you are according to the LXX translation, a child of the Hebrew STN, the opposer of GOD. Dave" Nope created with some matter and some ethereal Not quite human – and not quite angel Rob" This statement is clearly from Gnostic sources and not from the torah at all. Clearly you do not support the Moses torah and the origins of the false elohiym power.
Dave" Correct – they can manipulate nature on the small scale ROb" Thank you. They are not natural animals than.
Dave" The Beast – the serpent race – we call devils and satanas are partially biological ROb" And this information comes from where in the Moses torah?
We learn from the Moses account the Saraph creature entered the most brilliant natural creature God do, that of a flying dragon, the Chinese were familiar with, but the rest of the world know little more than legends.
What was the saraph creature? The only clue we have is from Isaiah, the burning ones were cherubims, not as you claim biological natural animals. They were created in heaven, and came from heaven to earth.
So far not a single verse have you supplied to supply your theory, but I have shown you more than once mine complete with numerous torah verses.
If you expect me to take your theories seriously, than where is your Bible verses that show better truth.
Dave" But the truth = the only thing that happened was a change of location – from the garden of Eden to the real world Rob" I see, than a flawed world existed naturally in your view, sin is only a change in location of Adam and Eve.
Dave" nature on works well when it is in-balance ROb" including natural death, natural decomposition and loss of heat, entropy and many such horrible things. Yes Dave I get your flawed world, "finely tuned to perfection to allow life to thrive" ---------------------------
Dave" There are 23 + 49 verses that use the word satan Please go through each one and demonstrate once and for all that your satan god hates and opposes God
You won’t – because you cannot – it will not support your teaching so you will not look there ROb" I am happy to go there, as long as you tell me what the hebrew word first means, both noun and verb forms must have the same meaning, and your meaning must nicely fit all contexts of every verse, both OT and NT.
I have given you my suggestion for every verse : Oppose/opposing/opposer.
The LXX translators have a terrible word meaning "devil" does not fit many verses, as I showed last post.
Adversity does not fit either. The verb causes are meaningless if adversity is used.
So over to you, what English word do you intend to use in this study?
Dave" What kind of meaning did they consider "devil" to mean?
1) this is translator’s bias being woven into the next translation 2)The origional said satan – post-original translation error / bias 3) Just how did the 70 think of this word? 4) YES – there are many errors within the Greek textus receptus 5) Mesmeric Hebrew was not used to revise the translation until - the publication in 1881 of the English Revised Version, or Revised Version, which was the first and remains the only officially authorized revision of the King James Bible. Rob" What answers are these?
Dave" Just how did the 70 think of this word? - It is a mind reading game You think translation is just easy anyone with your education can criticize Rob" Dave I have no trouble with selecting words in English, I choose "oppose/opposing/opposer" for all contexts and both verb and noun forms. Why is this so hard? Dave" How do you know the word wasn'y satan at first then some translator changed it after the fact Rob" From a Greek scholar, you come up with this? Come one Dave, start talking to me, as a scholar of Greek.
Dave" The LXX is not relevant – just because yo found a word – means nothing – it is a curiosity ROb" so typical of Dave.
Dave" There are currently over 2,000 classified manuscripts of the Septuagint. The first list of Septuagint manuscripts was presented by Holmes and Parsons. Their edition ends with a full list of manuscripts known to them set out in the Annexes.
Does every version say the same? Does every version say the say about the devil ROb" I am asking you Dave, the expert Greek scholar, what do these 2000 different LXX versions tell us about the hebrew word satan, what Greek words did they use?
Dave" You know this is not true – why do you say such BS ROb" because I am still waiting for you to assess my studies of the LXX, but you refuse to discuss things with me, do I have to find somebody else who is a Greek expert on the LXX and ask him?
Would you listen to his scholarship if I could find somebody? You didn't listen to Rabbi Apple from Australia, nor did you like the article from Steven Thompson showing the Opposer was a fallen angel.
How about you answer my questions.
1) Fact 1. The LXX consider the Hebrew word STN as both Greek satan and Greek satanas. Clearly the two words mean the same creature, the origin of the words is not a thing to consider here.
2). I have been waiting for years for your scholar to prove to us that satanas is a different creature to satan. Still waiting.
3) As a side issue, why do the LXX never consider the Hebrew STN as a prosecutor in Job and invent a third Greek word for NT readers. I suppose they also use the Greek word DEVIL. Hardly is this a good angel doing the servant work of the Lord, so Again Dave's theories are shot to pieces?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 17, 2023 9:22:39 GMT -5
Dave" Israel at the center of the end of days? Rob" What prophecy do you know where Israel is at the center of the last days? See – you deny scripture in favor of your Ellen White Just where outside of Rome is the Valley of Armageddon located?Maybe this one? Magog is a place in Israel isn't it?Yes – Gog and Magog rise up against IsraelZec 12:10 “Then I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication, when they will look toward Me whom they pierced. They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son and grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for a firstborn. Correct - now tell us why you deny it all in favor of Ellen White
Dave" You say you want to return to a more Jewish form of Christianity – BUT – you never bothered to learn Jewish theology Rob" I never said that, Hebrew Christianity, yes, not Jewish, what does Jewish mean these days? Many different things to many people. I am talking about the beliefs of -Jesus, His disciples, His followers, and the original Messianic Judaism Please try to stay on topicDave" what law for the beast did the Beast transgress? I will Jesus answer that question"
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the (The Beast of this world), and the lusts of your father (the Beast of this world) ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. 10) No coveting - a law for man6) No murderering - a law for man9) No lying - making false witness - how does this work in the animal kingdom?You know deception is a effective hunting skill-------------------------------- Also from temptation with Jesus: No false elohiym powers to be worshipped.What other god does the Beast worship? Answer – self – just selfish (yester ra) self------------------------------------------ Dave" Nope created with some matter and some ethereal Not quite human – and not quite angel Rob" This statement is clearly from Gnostic sources and not from the torah at all. Clearly you do not support the Moses torah and the origins of the false elohiym power. Where in your Torah is the creation story of the serpent?-------------------------------- Dave" Correct – they can manipulate nature on the small scaleROb" Thank you. They are not natural animals than. Man can manipulate nature on the small scale Ever hear of seeding the clouds
Some even argue we can create earth quakes and storms I believe that man has the ability – not to start a storm – but maximize one after it begins – HAARPEver hear of Global Warming?---------------------------------------------------- Dave" The Beast – the serpent race – we call devils and satanas are partially biological ROb" And this information comes from where in the Moses torah?Gen 3:1 But the serpent was shrewder than any animal of the field that Adonai Elohim made. Gen 3:14 Adonai Elohim said to the serpent, “Because you did this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and above every animal of the field. On your belly will you go, and dust will you eat all the days of your life. ----------------------------- Dave" But the truth = the only thing that happened was a change of location – from the garden of Eden to the real world Rob" I see, than a flawed world existed naturally in your view, sin is only a change in location of Adam and Eve. My view – God created our multiverse in a perfect balance – finely tuned – for life to thrive
Romans 1:19-20 any real researcher into the world is amazed at the Intelligent Design that points to our Creator
You call God’s creation flawed – because your God tried to make a tov world but was to weak and your satan took it away and corrupted it.Dave" nature only works well when it is in-balance ROb" including natural death, natural decomposition and loss of heat, entropy and many such horrible things. Yes Dave I get your flawed world, "finely tuned to perfection to allow life to thrive" Yep – on a cold night – horrible entropy allows the fire to give up its heat to warm you
Yep – all herbivores destroy the grasses – and disrupt nature – in a cycle of entropy They eat the grass – entropy – destroy entire pastures They shit the grass and throw it away – entropy new sprouts leach nutrients from the shit – entropy Once grown back into a beautiful grass – here comes the herbivores – entropy The cycle of lifeBirth – growth to maturity – death – and rebirth (Rosh Hashanah) From the beginning (birth) ---- (Yom Kippur) do I need to atone? (maturity) ---- (Sukkot) God tabernacles with man ---- (Purim) salvation is only from the Lord (maturity) ---- (Pesach) passover, passover, passover (death) ---- (Shavout) harvest / Pentecost (rebirth)The GOSPEL of the TORAH is written into nature for all to plainly see - reconise what is in your sightThe Parade of Israel played out before the 99% (whole world) all the nation of the earth for 1000 years before ChristGod commandment - Jer 1:5 ... I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.” IS WRITTEN INTO NATURE - so man can rediscover the creator - Roman 1:19-20---------------------------------- Dave" There are 23 + 49 verses that use the word satan Please go through each one and demonstrate once and for all that your satan god hates and opposes God You won’t – because you cannot – it will not support your teaching so you will not look there ROb" I am happy to go there,So over to you, what English word do you intend to use in this study?Dave" There are 23 + 49 verses that use the word satanSTOP STALLINGI will start a new thread just for you - "Roberts Proof" - have at it --------------------------------------------- Dave" What kind of meaning did they consider "devil" to mean? 1) this is translator’s bias being woven into the next translation 2)The origional said satan – post-original translation error / bias 3) Just how did the 70 think of this word? 4) YES – there are many errors within the Greek textus receptus Sorry Robert – it is just the truth – with all scriptureYour concept of the KJV textus receptus solo scriptura as a perfect text word for word – and letter for letter is nonsense It only proves your arrogance – there is no two ancient scripture texts that are word for word 5) Messanic Hebrew was not used to revise the translation until - the publication in 1881 of the English Revised Version, or Revised Version, which was the first and remains the only officially authorized revision of the King James Bible. Rob" What answers are these? Sorry Robert – it is just the truthDave" Just how did the 70 think of this word? - It is a mind reading game You think translation is just easy anyone with your education can criticize Rob" Dave I have no trouble with selecting words in English, I choose "oppose/opposing/opposer" for all contexts and both verb and noun forms. Why is this so hard? - you say this after 1000s of translators have gone before you
(google) How many words are used only once in the Bible?Depending on how you count and which texts you use, there are approximately 3,414 words which appear only once in the Bible, which account for nearly 25% of the total vocabulary. In the New Testament alone there are approximately 1,934 hapaxes of 5,436 lexemes,10 or 36% of the total vocabulary. Rob" I have no trouble with selecting words in English, you say this after 1000s of translators have gone before youDave" How do you know the word wasn't satan at first then some translator changed it after the fact Rob" From a Greek scholar, you come up with this? Come one Dave, start talking to me, as a scholar of Greek. I am sorry if you do not like the truth - Scholarly it is a real consideration Since 1881 the textus receptus - LXX - was no longer considered accurate or complete - the 1611 KJV was not revised against the Hebrew Text (WLC) until 1881 Since then there have been many revision - each version containing more and more textual variations away from the 1611KJV Answer the question – how do you know it is not human error? Prove it – scripture has 1000s of textual variations whitch word is the correct word?(wiki) Textual variants in the Hebrew Bible manuscripts arise when a copyist makes deliberate or inadvertent alterations to the text that is being reproduced. Textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament) has included study of its textual variants. Although the Masoretic Text (MT) counts as the authoritative form of the Hebrew Bible according to Rabbinic Judaism, modern scholars seeking to understand the history of the Hebrew Bible use a range of sources.[1] These include the Greek Septuagint (LXX), the Syriac language Peshitta translation, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Dead Sea Scrolls collection, and quotations from rabbinic manuscripts. These sources may be older than the Masoretic Text in some cases, and often differ from it.[2] These differences have given rise to the theory that yet another text, an Urtext of the Hebrew Bible, once existed and is the source of the versions extant today.[3] However, such an Urtext has never been found, and which of the three commonly known versions (Septuagint, Masoretic Text, Samaritan Pentateuch) is closest to the Urtext is debated.[4] www.alisachildersblog.com/blog/3-textual-variants-every-christian-should-know-about3 Textual Variants Every Christian Should Know About---------------------------------------------- Dave" The LXX is not relevant – just because you found a word – means nothing – it is a curiosity ROb" so typical of Dave. Just because you found a word that you can play word games does not rewrite scriptureYou didn't listen to Rabbi Apple from Australia, nor did you like the article from Steven Thompson showing the Opposer was a fallen angel. The challenge to you has always been – provide a pre-Roman reference or validation Rabbi Apple is a 20th century Jewish leader specializing in interfaith relations Your SDA expert – is a post 1834 Great Disappointment Ellen White follower --------------------------------------------- How about you answer my questions. Fact 1. The LXX consider the Hebrew word STN as both Greek satan and Greek satanas. Clearly the two words mean the same creature, the origin of the words is not a thing to consider here. www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satanSATAN:Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5). Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. iii. 1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord," who bids him be silent in the name of God. In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord in service to God
The Beast is an entirely different creature serving an entirely different functionRev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child. Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to His throne. Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God so they might take care of her for 1,260 days. Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought, Rev 12:8 but they were not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satanas, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Anointed One, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters—the one who accuses them before our God day and night—has been thrown out.
The BEAST devours creation - decieves the world - accuses our brothers and sisters
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Post by rob on Aug 17, 2023 17:13:23 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" Yes – Gog and Magog rise up against IsraelRob" Thanks for this. Dave" Correct - now tell us why you deny it all in favor of Ellen WhiteRob" Huh? do not understand you? Dave" I am talking about the beliefs of -Jesus, His disciples, His followers, and the original Messianic Judaism Please try to stay on topicRob" Oh, yes indeed Dave" Where in your Torah is the creation story of the serpent?Rob" One assumes the saraph creature chose the dragon serpent creature because it was beautiful and arum in it's nature? And entered the creature, possessing its facilities, including talking to Eve. Dave" Man can manipulate nature on the small scale Ever hear of seeding the clouds
Some even argue we can create earth quakes and storms I believe that man has the ability – not to start a storm – but maximize one after it begins – HAARP
Ever hear of Global Warming?Rob" Yes, but man is made in the image of elohiym, we are smarter than ordinary animals. Hence the saraph creature is similar to humans, very intelligent creature. But my point is, not ordinary animals. Dave" Gen 3:1 But the serpent was shrewder than any animal of the field that Adonai Elohim made. Gen 3:14 Adonai Elohim said to the serpent, “Because you did this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and above every animal of the field. On your belly will you go, and dust will you eat all the days of your life. Rob" Nice, but these refer to cursing the serpent creature, not directly referring to the saraph creature who possessed the serpent. Such punishment happened as a prophecy Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Notice the saraph creature can propagate "his seed" just as God can propagate "His Seed" through the woman. What does this mean? Ps 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. The only concept that explains this mystery is this verse, the word "yalad" and "aven" are here. So one can produce "seeds of aven" simply by getting the human to choose choices of which powers are flowing into their lives. This is done through "amanah" "the strong flow of power over the nations (via) the Being" Does the Saraph creature also have words that come with his strong flow of power (via faith) ? Jas 2:19 The devils also understand "amanah". Now Gnostic writings assume this occurs using physical sexual intercourse, is a perverse idea of this idiom. Ps 2:12 Kiss the Son (bar) SEED, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. Jesus is referred to as a Seed, the same idea, passing his powers into humans through faith. Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent "saraph", and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. God told Moses to make a "Saraph" and place it upon a pole, for by beholding the look, you live. Here again is an even stranger mystery. Why is Jesus and the Saraph being symbolized upon the pole, one causes humans to die, the other causes humans to live. What does this saraph creature look like and where does the saraph creature come from? It is an ordinary animal? De 8:14 Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the LORD thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage; 15 Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint; 16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end; Such a creature was known in the Moses torah, and Moses wrote about the saraph creature, and how GOD delivered Israel from the sarpah creature. We also here of manna, the Greek word for man, meaning the "flow over the nations". Flow of what? God's salvation to Israel. In a witness to Moses torah, Isaiah we learn who the sarpah creature is: Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. These creatures stand closest to God, sawing holy holy holy is the Lord Almighty. Isa 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. This verse speaks of the human who has the saraph creature within him, so we see his seed planted in this human. Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: To demonstrate the saraph and his seeding in humans. Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? The saraph creatute makes the world as a wilderness and the humans as a house filled with prisoners. This is why God leads Israel into the wilderness, and shows Israel they are housed as prisoners in the wilderness by the saraph creature. Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, The whole passage is a poetry full of parallel stories and similes of figures. Isa 14:4 ¶ That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, The whole chapter is a poetry mystery, intent to write about the human and his dealings with the saraph creature. So Dave, this saraph creature is not an ordinary animal, but some cherub who originally function was saying holy holy holy is the Lord Almighty. Now notice I get all this using the Moses torah. No need for Ezekiel 28, this is only additional help. ------------------- Dave" My view – God created our multiverse in a perfect balance – finely tuned – for life to thriveROb" Nice Dave , my view is similar Dave" Romans 1:19-20 any real researcher into the world is amazed at the Intelligent Design that points to our CreatorROb" Absolutely Dave" You call God’s creation flawed – because your God tried to make a tov world but was to weak and your satan took it away and corrupted it.ROb" No Dave, Gnostic view is your world included ordinary animals as agents of RA, Entropy and Darkness, plus your finely tuned world had decomposition, and natural death, with carnivores and herbivores. My view of creation is GOD was making a brand new creation, so as to allow the saraph creature of Darkness a place to demonstrate His sinning Kingdom to other unfallen worlds. The actual creation is placed into this arrangement is termed very tov, not a reference to making darkness tov, but a reference to making the contest tov. Man was designed to live a sinless life forever, and told of the saraph creature in the Eden near his tree. But after many years, possible 33 years, mankind fell into the hand of thr saraph creature who now became the prince (archon) a title, of this world and Adam lost his crown prince title, as a result of condemnation, a court ruling in heaven, as a result of Adam's sin. See Romans 5. Dave" Yep – on a cold night – horrible entropy allows the fire to give up its heat to warm youROb" God is a saraph power as well, meaning a fire of energy. So one only need to get close to God to experience living at it's best. Thus all atoms that have motion experience this energy of God, who at a subatomic level empowers all matter with existence. Entropy is simply a term humans have invented to mean a movement away from the Zero Point Energy Field of God. Dave" Yep – all herbivores destroy the grasses – and disrupt nature – in a cycle of entropy They eat the grass – entropy – destroy entire pastures They shit the grass and throw it away – entropy new sprouts leach nutrients from the shit – entropy Once grown back into a beautiful grass – here comes the herbivores – entropyROb" in this current world, yes, but not in the utopia world of sinlessness and perfection. Poo is 100% free living bacteria. all fibre is soluble, and no energy is lost as heat. It's a world we humans cannot fathom right now. All animals were herbivores and all plants and animals talked freely to each other, as well as humans. Sound too much for you? Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. 1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. Dave" The GOSPEL of the TORAH is written into nature for all to plainly seeROb" Yes Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; Dave" The Parade of Israel played out before the 99% (whole world) all the nation of the earth for 1000 years before ChristRob" Yes, Ancient CHina did this for 1000 years before Moses even existed. Showed the Shung Dei to the whole known world back than. Dave" STOP STALLING
I will start a new thread just for you - "Roberts Proof" - have at it ROb" Not until I have a single English word from you that fits all the verses of context. Agreed? Dave" It only proves your arrogance – there is no two ancient scripture texts that are word for wordROb" I am beginning to see this problem Dave. Dave" Sorry Robert – it is just the truthROb" I see, so how is anybody supposed to know truth, if the translations are poor and variable? See my LXX studies below. Dave" you say this after 1000s of translators have gone before youROb" Well I asked GOD to help me, and the process is really easy, IF you are open minded to the task at hand. Dave" How many words are used only once in the Bible? Depending on how you count and which texts you use, there are approximately 3,414 words which appear only once in the Bible, which account for nearly 25% of the total vocabulary.ROb" I see, my method has to have words used lots of times, so I see the problem; but lucky for us Ancient Hebrew is a language with child roots and related roots, so the family of words have similar meanings, also vowels, things a Jew does not consider. Lucky for me, I found Jeff benner. Dave" I am sorry if you do not like the truth - Scholarly it is a real considerationROb" In my reading on the WWW, I see the problem as you outline. Dave" Answer the question – how do you know it is not human error? Prove it – scripture has 1000s of textual variations whitch word is the correct word?ROb" SO is the truth preserved by GOD or isn't it? Where did the Greek word satanas come from? Did the LXX use this word? Some say yes, some say no. Talk about confusing. Dave" Just because you found a word that you can play word games does not rewrite scriptureROb" I see. Dave" Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity;Rob" Not the same creature as I present in this post, the saraph creature is a figure of the wilderness and the prisoners captured in prison. Dave" He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity;ROb" If that is true, explain why both saraph beings are figured upon the pole, one look leads to live, the other causes a bite leading to your death. Both saraph beings upon the pole as figures. Notice the poetry in Is 14 also, about man and the saraph creatures that is fruit from his seeds within the man. Dave" Rev 12:3 ROb" Before you get confused by poetry in Rev, try unravelling the poetry in Is 14. Dave" The BEAST devours creation ROb" Yes , why the saraph creature leading humans into prison to live in the wilderness. LXX studies ------------------------------------------ Strong's Number G4567 matches the Greek Σατανᾶς (satanas), which occurs 0 times in 0 verses in the LXX Greek. View NT results in the TR Greek concordance View NT results in the MGNT Greek concordance There are no concordance results for this Strongs number in the Greek concordance of the lxx.www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4567/lxx/lxx/0-1/-------------------------------------------------------------- The Hebrew term śāṭān (Hebrew: שָׂטָן) is a generic noun meaning "accuser" or "adversary",[7][8] and i s derived from a verb meaning primarily "to obstruct, oppose".[9] ROb" Some scholar agrees with my studies "Balaam's departure aroused the wrath of Elohim, and the Angel of Yahweh stood in the road as a satan against him."[7] ROb" weird LXX contextFor instance, the sages considered Satan to be an angel of death that would later be called Samael, since God's prohibition on Satan killing Job implied, he was even capable of doing so,[61] Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince "archon" of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me Rob" archon is a title, meaning 'first' or 'prince'----------------------------------------------------- The Greek term satanas [Satana'"] is a loan word from the Hebrew Old Testament, and twenty-eight of the total occurrences are accompanied by the definite article The other common appellation for Satan in the New Testament is "the devil" (diabolos [diavbolo"]), not found in the Old Testament, but thirty-four times here, meaning one who is traducer, a slanderer. The word often translates satan [Sata'n] in the Septuagint (either as "the satan" or an "adversary"). In the New Testament the "devil" becomes "an evil principle/being standing against God." Rob" The term slanderer would not fit all contexts of STN.------------------------------------------------------------ The Greek word diabolos, ―false accuser, the devil‖ is used thirty-eight times and satanas, ―Satan, the tempter, Beelzebub/prince of devils, opposer, adversary,‖ is used thirty-four times in the Greek New Testament to describe Satan or the devil (Zodhiates1992:418-21, 1281-2). Diabolos is used much more frequently in the Septuagint compared to satanas only being used twice (Morrish 1976:55, 220). Rob" Twice? Details not given?web.oru.edu/current_students/class_pages/grtheo/mmankins/DrHebert/Dissertation/1.2.10%20Satan,thedevil%26kingdom%20of%20darkness.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------ However, and this is where I think it becomes even more interesting, we need to know that the Hebrew system of writing began to change after the Babylonian exile from ‘Paleo-Hebrew’ to the ‘block’ or ‘square’ Aramaic or Assyrian style that is still in use today (with some further modifications). The earliest copies of the scroll containing Amos (‘the Scroll of the Twelve Prophets’) would most likely have been in Paleo-Hebrew, and in this script the words בקשׁ and ירשׁ are much more similar. The chart shows these words in the square script which is now used, the Paleo-Hebrew in which Amos was probably first written, and the early form of the square script which is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah manuscript to show how it may have been written if the Aramaic script was already in use. While ר and ק are not similar in the square script they could easily be mistaken in Paleo-Hebrew. Similarly ד י and ב could also be mistaken, especially if the text was faded, smudged or damaged. Many scholars understand that the LXX text arose from a different version of the Hebrew text through a misreading of this kind [5] . Rob" Seems copyists were not familiar with Hebrew and got confused.---------------------------------------------------- Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 18, 2023 0:41:39 GMT -5
Dave" Yes – Gog and Magog rise up against Israel Rob" Thanks for this. Dave" Correct - now tell us why you deny it all in favor of Ellen White Rob" Huh? do not understand you?Surely you watched Dillon’s video – why don’t you understand – do you really not pay attention – or you just don’t want to answer. You and your SDA Ellen White do not accept dispensation Instead she / you teach a new Covenant theology Christians now replace the Jews and Israel as God’s chosen people.In the original thread – Is 1948 Israel prophetic – you and rakovsky both argued against the Idea 1948 Israel cannot be of God because they violate human rightsRakovsky says: One of the moral problems that I have with this line of thinking and major focus on the Israeli State in terms of prophecy is that alot of supporters of this theory use it to justify the actions of the Israeli state toward the native Christian and Muslim population. Their reasoning runs something like- the Israelis are coming into this land as a fulfillment of prophecy, and so the Christians and Muslims there aren't part of the prophecy, and they are resisting the Israelis' attempt to rule them, so Israeli measures are justified. -------------------------------------------- Dave" Where in your Torah is the creation story of the serpent? Rob" One assumes Not scripture – not fact – just an assumption ass-u-me – it makes an ass - of u – and meWithout evidence – you just make it up--------------------------------------------- Dave" Man can manipulate nature on the small scale Rob" Yes, but man is made in the image of elohiym, we are smarter than ordinary animals. Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.Includes manHence the saraph creature is similar to humans, very intelligent creature. YEP – intelligent – "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" (Matthew 8:29.)
But my point is, not ordinary animals. Nope not ordinal biological animals – they are not totally biological they are partially ethereal------------------------------- e 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Notice the saraph creature can propagate "his seed" just as God can propagate "His Seed" through the woman. What does this mean? 1) it destroys your argument that Gen 6 angels cannot father Nephilim 2) it destroys your ignorance of the Rephiem 3) it only confirms that the archon can and do procreate------------------- Dave" My view – God created our multiverse in a perfect balance – finely tuned – for life to thrive ROb" Nice Dave , my view is similarDave" Romans 1:19-20 any real researcher into the world is amazed at the Intelligent Design that points to our Creator ROb" Absolutely Dave" You call God’s creation flawed – because your God tried to make a tov world but was to weak and your satan took it away and corrupted it. ROb" No Dave, Gnostic view is your world included ordinary animals as agents of RA, Entropy and Darkness, plus your finely tuned world had decomposition, and natural death, with carnivores and herbivores. YEP – the balance of nature – the Cycle of Life – the Gospel of the Torah written into nature itself.
You call this a flawed world Then turn around and agree its perfectDave" My view – God created our multiverse in a perfect balance – finely tuned – for life to thrive ROb" Nice Dave , my view is similarDave" Romans 1:19-20 any real researcher into the world is amazed at the Intelligent Design that points to our Creator ROb" Absolutely Pick a side – make a stand – choose witch theology your supporting todayMy view of creation is GOD was making a brand new creation, so as to allow the saraph creature of Darkness a place to demonstrate His sinning Kingdom to other unfallen worlds. The actual creation is placed into this arrangement is termed very tov, not a reference to making darkness tov, but a reference to making the contest tov. Your theology is changing – you would have never said this 4 years agomaking the contest tov – even tho it contains angels, man and archon – including the light of truth and the darkness of ignorance
Very Gnostic of you----------------------- Dave" Yep – on a cold night – horrible entropy allows the fire to give up its heat to warm you ROb" God is a saraph power as well, meaning a fire of energy. So one only need to get close to God to experience living at it's best. - nice religious speachThus all atoms that have motion experience this energy of God, who at a subatomic level empowers all matter with existence. Correct the HS is the 2D matrix of our the multiverse – sustaining the whole at the sub-atomic level--------------------------- Dave" Yep – all herbivores destroy the grasses – and disrupt nature – in a cycle of entropy They eat the grass – entropy – destroy entire pastures They shit the grass and throw it away – entropy new sprouts leach nutrients from the shit – entropy Once grown back into a beautiful grass – here comes the herbivores – entropy ROb" in this current world, yes, but not in the utopia world of sinlessness and perfection. You call this a flawed world Then turn around and agree its perfectDave" My view – God created our multiverse in a perfect balance – finely tuned – for life to thrive ROb" Nice Dave , my view is similarDave" Romans 1:19-20 any real researcher into the world is amazed at the Intelligent Design that points to our Creator ROb" Absolutely --------------------------- All animals were herbivores and all plants and animals talked freely to each other, as well as humans. Sound too much for you? Where is your empirical evidence Where is your scripture – more SA assumptions---------------------------------------- Dave" STOP STALLING I will start a new thread just for you - "Roberts Proof" - have at it ROb" Not until I have a single English word from you that fits all the verses of context. Agreed? Already agreed – satan (H7854 – G4566 – G4567) The thread is open and ready for you – STOP STALLING STOP MAKING EXCUSES - ------------------------------------ Dave" – there is no two ancient scripture texts that are word for word ROb" I am beginning to see this problem Dave.ROb" I see, so how is anybody supposed to know truth, if the translations are poor and variable? ROb" In my reading on the WWW, I see the problem as you outline. Yes – if you would take some time to educate yourself on how we ended up with your textus receptus you would see what a subjective process it was. In the complete hands of the self appointed religious authority of the day - Rome
Dave" Answer the question – how do you know it is not human error? Prove it – scripture has 1000s of textual variations which word is the correct word? ROb" SO is the truth preserved by GOD or isn't it?YES – the truth is preserved – the message is preserved This is why – scripture must validate itself - precept upon precept, line upon line – over and over
Where did the Greek word satanas come from? Did the LXX use this word? Some say yes, some say no. Talk about confusing. The correct answer – there are 2000 ancient copies of the LXX - Did the LXX use this word? Some say yes, some say no. - means some copies use it and other copies did notROb" I see, so how is anybody supposed to know truthThe Christian answer = the Holy Spirit will teach The problem that so many Christians are too busy talking – they fail to listenThe honest answer = many Christians take their bias into their prayer life – they do not hear what they do not want to hearAs for scripture – there is a very large potential mistake being made – and has always been made – but no one knows the correct answer Truth by majority text in the realm of Bible printing Gospel of John – example (I am making up the numbers) Let’s say there are 200 copies of John from the second and third centuries. 185 of them say ‘A’ – 10 of them say ‘B’ and 5 of them don’t even have the same verse. What is the correct word ‘A’ or ‘B’? How can you prove that the incorrect copy just wasn’t copped more - Or the incorrect copy wasn’t popular so it survived in a closet As a translator – how do you know what is correct As of now – the majority wins - 185 of them say ‘A’ – 10 of them say ‘B’ = ‘A’ wins Today – If ‘A’ gets into scripture – how does ‘B’ become a marginal reading I have just wasted an hr looking for the rule – no luck But I remember from school of a 20% rule (something like that) 20% of the total texts must contain ‘B’ – to be footnoted Of 200 text – 10 would not even qualify and the English reader never knows The reasoning = if you let them all in the footnotes would overwhelm scripture Dave" you say this after 1000s of translators have gone before you ROb" Well I asked GOD to help me, and the process is really easy, IF you are open minded to the task at hand. Your Robert method has failed you miserably Remember kathistēmi Remember deliberately trying to force archie to only mean banning------------------------------------ Dave" Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; Rob" Not the same creature as I present in this post, the saraph creature is a figure of the wilderness and the prisoners captured in prison. Correct – Hebrew satan is NOT your fallen angelDave" He can not be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; ROb" If that is true, explain why both saraph beings are figured upon the pole, one look leads to live, the other causes a bite leading to your death. Both saraph beings upon the pole as figures. Knowledge is power – scary things scare you until you identify them for what they are Unknown things scare us – have power over us – until understand that the noise outside is just the wind
Why did Moses run a fiery serpent up on a pole – to expose it for what it is Why did man run Christ up a pole – to expose Him for who He is------------------------------------------ Dave" Rev 12:3 ROb" Before you get confused by poetry in Rev, try unravelling the poetry in Is 14.It is all about a man, man, adam, mankind, every man, any manIsa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! The morning star = the planet Venus Last star in the sky each morning – thinks it will last all day – but doesn’tIsa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: The arrogance of man – Caesar though he was a godIsa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. The arrogance of manIsa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Robert just recently admitted he did know the difference between Hades and Tartarus Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; Is this the manH376 – אִישׁ - 'ı̂ysh - Contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation.) : - also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man H582 – אֱנוֹשׁ - 'ĕnôsh - From H605; properly a mortal Is there poetry here - sure It is all about a man, man, adam, mankind, every man, any manweekly.israelbiblecenter.com/does-isaiah-tell-the-story-of-satan/Does Isaiah Tell the Story of Satan?According to Christian tradition, Satan has a backstory: The devil was once the most beautiful angel in heaven but this angelic being, then called Lucifer, rebelled against God and was cast down to hell. In part, this tradition comes from a particular interpretation of Isaiah 14:12-15. The text describes someone who, in Isaiah’s original Hebrew, is called Helel ben Shachar (הילל בן שׁחר)–variously translated as “Day/Morning Star, son of Dawn/Morning” (14:12). In the Latin Vulgate, the Hebrew “Helel” becomes Lucifer. Yet, while Isaiah taunts someone who equates himself with God and suffers the consequences, the prophet does not disclose the origin of evil. Instead, Isaiah 14 refers to the king of Babylon, and “Satan” appears nowhere in the passage. Thus, if we ground our theological understanding on Scripture alone, then we have no reason to posit an angelic prehistory for Satan based on Isaiah.
-------------------------------------------------------------- The Hebrew term śāṭān (Hebrew: שָׂטָן) is a generic noun meaning "accuser" or "adversary",[7][8] and is derived from a verb meaning primarily "to obstruct, oppose".[9] ROb" Some scholar agrees with my studies I call your satan the accuser – and you disagree and say oppose /opposer----------------------------------------------------- The Greek word diabolos, ―false accuser, the devil‖ is used thirty-eight times and satanas, ―Satan, the tempter, Beelzebub/prince of devils, opposer, adversary,‖ is used thirty-four times in the Greek New Testament to describe Satan or the devil (Zodhiates1992:418-21, 1281-2). Diabolos is used much more frequently in the Septuagint compared to satanas only being used twice (Morrish 1976:55, 220). Rob" Twice? Details not given?What do you mean – do you not understand how references work?What is - (Zodhiates1992:418-21, 1281-2). What is - (Morrish 1976:55, 220) Explain it to me
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Post by rob on Aug 18, 2023 5:32:04 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" In the original thread – Is 1948 Israel prophetic Rob" I study the Messanic Emails I get every second day for over 4 years now, and have no problem with their prophecies concerning the Israel homeland, since 1948. Before you rush into mocking Ellen White about so called words I don't understand, give me some simple questions first, so I can search Ellen White easily. The most common change in God's assembly has to do with the Sanctuary, which is now in heaven, r ather than on earth, so naturally a sanctuary on earth would violate the High Priest and His sanctuary services in heaven. Does this service done by Jesus, our High Priest make sense to you? Do the Messianic Hebrews understand this? Dave" Nope not ordinal biological animals – they are not totally biological they are partially etherealRob" Yes, as I showed you the saraph creatures are from heaven orginally, and are cherubims, not the same as humans are but similar, as you say. Dave" 1) it destroys your argument that Gen 6 angels cannot father Nephilim 2) it destroys your ignorance of the Rephiem 3) it only confirms that the archon can and do procreate
Rob: Before you rush off thinking the archons can have biological sex with humans, where is your line upon line approach, a little here and there, across the entire tanak. Dave" Your theology is changing – you would have never said this 4 years ago
making the contest tov – even tho it contains angels, man and archon – including the light of truth and the darkness of ignorance
Very Gnostic of youRob" Dave I am considerate of your view and happy to use your words where I can. Your view is OK as a theory, but I find it does not hold up according to the Moses torah. But I am happy to accommodate my words as much as I can for your sake, and treat you kindly. Dave" Correct the HS is the 2D matrix of our the multiverse – sustaining the whole at the sub-atomic levelROb" I can say things knowing you will agree with me somewhat. I treat you as a friend, even though we have completely different views. Dave" You call this a flawed world Then turn around and agree its perfectROb" No Dave. God planned a perfect world with the ability to accommodate RA should sinning come into this delicately designed world, in its sinless state of perfection. Even when RA came into our world as a result of SIN, the world designed by God was still very good and beautiful. Snow for example, rain, and wood rather than silicon trees, are all examples of God's perfect designs whether the world existed sinless or whether the world existed in RA, as a result of SIN by Adam. Where we differ, is Gnostic view begins with RA, and does not consider SIN affecting Creation. We begin with a perfect world without RA, entropy or SIN in the humans. However sinning saraph creatures were living under the creation, and allowed to test the humans for a probationary time. The humans sadly fell into sin. Dave" Where is your empirical evidenceROb" I gave you two verses and you ask for evidence? Dave" Already agreed – satan (H7854 – G4566 – G4567)
The thread is open and ready for you – STOP STALLING STOP MAKING EXCUSES - ROb" OK what English word do you agree we will use for the hebrew word "STN" ? And secondly, do you agree the Hebrew word "STN" is the same concept as the Greek word "satanas"? Or do you wish to pose two completely creatures? One for Hebrew STN and another for Greek satanas? If you choose the latter idea, what TWO English words do you propose for both Hebrew OT word and Greek NT word? Most scholars on the www see hebrew STN as the same creature as Greek Satanas, so I would pose One English word for both OT and NT sources. So you have to prove your case here, before we begin. Dave" Yes – if you would take some time to educate yourself on how we ended up with your textus receptus you would see what a subjective process it was. ROb" Subjective process? 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I see nothing subjective here, but the hand of God guiding his holy messages to reach those grassroot people who wish to be saved by the messages of the gospel. Ro 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, The HS can tutor mankind, overseering the torah we have ensuring it's inspiration. Dave" This is why – scripture must validate itself - precept upon precept, line upon line – over and overRob" I wish you followed this idea? You look instead to the majority of influences and go with that. Dave" The correct answer – there are 2000 ancient copies of the LXX - Did the LXX use this word? Some say yes, some say no. - means some copies use it and other copies did notROb" OK I get your point, so surely you researched your archon and satanas ideas fully, so where did these words come from? I get archon is similar to arche, meaning "first or beginning" similar to H7225, beginning. But where did satanas come from? Surely the answer has to be Hebrew STN, but your LXX translators must have an answer for this? Or is the answer merely Kione Greek grammar, adding a suffix? Dave" The Christian answer = the Holy Spirit will teach The problem that so many Christians are too busy talking – they fail to listenRob" Yes Dave" As for scripture – there is a very large potential mistake being made ROb" Since most of the torah is poetry. Dave" The reasoning = if you let them all in the footnotes would overwhelm scriptureROb" Are you sure of this? The OT was copied and copied in Hebrew by exacting mathematical process. The variations are minor after a thousand years of copying. The problems I see is Greek people trying to understand Hebrew letters and translating the Hebrew into Greek. Isaiah 28 warns of this, new tongue and thus it comes with stammering lips, a fuzzy translation. Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 1Co 14:21 ¶ I n the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. 26 ¶ How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
Paul uses this verse to speak about translations into new tongues, in Paul's day most people spoke Hebrew. But some wanted to speak Greek or some other language. Dave" Your Robert method has failed you miserably Remember kathistēmiRob" Hmm? My software program lets me down somewhat, and does not show all Greek or Hebrew words. only the major ones. I still think the main objective of kathistēmi is to "establish one as a ruler" not just mean "Establish" as you claim. Perhaps now I am more refined thanks to you, so when you choose your English word for Hebrew STN, we can begin. Dave" Correct – Hebrew satan is NOT your fallen angelROb" DO you understand what you post? I said the saraph creature is a figure of the wilderness capturing "humans in a prison house in the desert". A saraph creature is a cherubim creature, if it's created by God. Jesus is a saraph Being is eternal and not created, but has existed for all eternity. The word saraph means burning, but not like a fire in air. Dave" Why did Moses run a fiery serpent up on a pole – to expose it for what it is Why did man run Christ up a pole – to expose Him for who He isROb" You are avoiding the contrast, one saraph creature bites humans and they die, the other saraph Being requires you to look (a faith concept) and you remain living, despite the bite by the other saraph creature. This is a depiction of the Great Controversary. Dave" It is all about a man, man, adam, mankind, every man, any manRob" Wasn't I careful to present this idea? Why didn't you read my post with passion? Dave" Robert just recently admitted (you) did know the difference between Hades and TartarusRob" Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down <yarad> to hell <sh@'owl>, to the sides <y@rekah> of the pit <bowr>. Hades I get is shoawl. But what hebrew word is Tartarus? Dave" Is this the manRob" I agree. Dave" Is there poetry here - sure It is all about a manRob" I agree. DAVE" Instead, Isaiah 14 refers to the king of Babylon, and “Satan” appears nowhere in the passage.ROb" Quoting your Jewish commentary, I agree, STN is not in this text. BUT BUT you failed to read my post with passion didn't you? Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: Remember I showed you this verse? Isa 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: This verse refers to a human, man, mankind yes, but the verse is NOT finished yet........ Isa 14:29 .........for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. The fruit of the sinning man, mankind, human is the " saraph flying serpent". So the whole of Isaiah 14 is about Man, who is empowered by the saraph creature. But you failed to notice this idea, Dave? --------------------------------------------------------------- Dave" I call your satan the accuser – and you disagree and say oppose /opposerRob" OK let's test your English word "accuser" Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary " accuser" against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. 23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. First the context of the verses tell us about the use of words and word meanings. Notice the picture. Ass on the road with wicked human prophet riding the ass. Messenger of GOD comes to the road and stands on the road. 23 .(1)..the angel of the LORD standing in the way, ..(2) ..Ass sees the messenger, and turns off the road. ..(3) The human beats the ass with a stick, angrily. Question: Was the messenger accusing the ass? NO SO your word meaning does not fit. Question" Was the messenger opposing the ass? YES Opposing something, is to physically block something, apart from other meanings, so the messenger is opposing the ass from walking down to road. Now Dave, discuss my findings here? DO you agree with me or disagree with me, and offer something else. Please discuss this context Numbers 22:22 ONLY. Look forward to your discussion of this verse. Dave" What do you mean – do you not understand how references work? What is - (Zodhiates1992:418-21, 1281-2). What is - (Morrish 1976:55, 220) Explain it to meRob" No idea, not an OT reference/ verse. And if the references are true, what does all this mean Dave, about your satanas idea as a brand new creature different from hebrew STN? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 18, 2023 8:28:09 GMT -5
Dave" In the original thread – Is 1948 Israel prophetic Rob" I study the Messanic Emails I get every second day for over 4 years now, and have no problem with their prophecies concerning the Israel homeland, since 1948.
So you reject Covenant theology as presented by Ellen White Christians have NOT replaced Jews and Israel as his chosen people
Before you rush into mocking Ellen White about so called words I don't understand, give me some simple questions first, so I can search Ellen White easily.
You should have watched Dillon video and read his comments before trying guessing to answer his question ------------------------------------------------
Dave" Nope not ordinal biological animals – they are not totally biological they are partially ethereal Rob" Yes, as I showed you the saraph creatures are from heaven orginally, and are cherubims, not the same as humans are but similar, as you say.
More of Robert’s fantasy – saraph and cherub are not the same and neither is the dragon of Rev 12:3 -------------------------------------------------------------
Dave" 1) it destroys your argument that Gen 6 angels cannot father Nephilim 2) it destroys your ignorance of the Rephiem 3) it only confirms that the archon can and do procreate
Rob: Before you rush off thinking the archons can have biological sex with humans, where is your line upon line approach, a little here and there, across the entire tanak. OH – so you back rejecting Enoch Like him when you want to use him then reject him when you don’t – flip flop man of conviction The saga of the nephilim and then the rephiem is spelled out within scripture – across the entire tanak ----------------------------
Dave" You call this a flawed world Then turn around and agree its perfect ROb" No Dave. God planned a perfect world with the ability to accommodate RA should sinning come into this delicately designed world, in its sinless state of perfection.
Is this a perfect world – left here for man to rediscover the true Intelligent Designer
Or is the world flawed – please make up your mind
Where we differ, is Gnostic view begins with RA, and does not consider SIN affecting Creation.
We begin with a perfect world without RA, entropy or SIN in the humans. So you deny that this is a perfect world – finely tuned for life to thrive – pointing to the One True Creator
However sinning saraph creatures were living under the creation, and allowed to test the humans for a probationary time. The humans sadly fell into sin.
You teach this is a flawed world – God tried to make it a tov world but was unable – some other force named satan took over and changed it all to a flawed ra world
Dave" Where is your empirical evidence ROb" I gave you two verses and you ask for evidence? Now where is your answer? Empirical evidence is something you can touch and feel - measure Man has museum after museum filled with the empirical evidence of natures life cycle long before man Where is your evidence – Don Patton is an a buffoon -----------------------------------------------------
Dave" Already agreed – satan (H7854 – G4566 – G4567)
The thread is open and ready for you – STOP STALLING STOP MAKING EXCUSES - ROb" OK what English word do you agree we will use for the hebrew word "STN" ?
And secondly, do you agree the Hebrew word "STN" is the same concept as the Greek word "satanas"? Same concept H7854 – שָׂטָן – śâṭân - From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: - adversary, Satan, withstand
G4566 – Σατᾶν – Satan - Of Hebrew origin [H7854]; Satan, that is, the devil: - Satan.
G4567 – Σατανᾶς – Satanas - Of Chaldee origin corresponding to G4566 (with the definite article affixed); the accuser, that is, the devil: - Satan.
Or do you wish to pose two completely creatures? One for Hebrew STN and another for Greek satanas? Correct – Hebrew satan is NOT the BEAST of Revelation
If you choose the latter idea, what TWO English words do you propose for both Hebrew OT word and Greek NT word?
OK – Ill play - For the OT – lets call him Jimmy – or we could use satan For the NT – lets call the Beast Mary – or we could use satanas
Most (Catholic) scholars on the www see hebrew STN as the same creature as Greek Satanas, so I would pose One English word for both OT and NT sources.
REPEAT - Dave" Already agreed – satan (H7854 – G4566 – G4567) So you have to prove your case here, before we begin. You are doing your best to avoid answering a direct question. Your entire theology is based upon your mantra - satan hates and opposes God – your Great Controversy is based upon your satan rebelling against God – opposing God – you cannot say it enough
REPEAT - Dave" Already agreed – satan (H7854 – G4566 – G4567)
The thread is open and ready for you – STOP STALLING STOP MAKING EXCUSES - -----------------------------------------------
Dave" The reasoning = if you let them all in the footnotes would overwhelm scripture ROb" Are you sure of this? The OT was copied and copied in Hebrew by exacting mathematical process. The variations are minor after a thousand years of copying.
I was taught 20 years ago – 250,000 textual variations Today – it is much higher – the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls doubled the number of known variations The reference I posted here for you recently said 750,000 textual variations Should each and every one be footnoted? The footnotes would outweigh the scripture – so there is a ‘rule’ man uses to decide just how big of a variation deserves a footnote --------------------------------
But where did satanas come from? Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Anointed One, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters—the one who accuses them before our God day and night—has been thrown out.
The BEAST deceives the whole world – not just Israel but the whole world – before Abram was called from Ur – space alien gods were everywhere – Egypt – Sumar – India – Canaan was filled with 33 other gods – they are all archon from the BEAST This is why satanas is of Chaldean origin
Surely the answer has to be Hebrew STN, Is your assumption to force scripture into your own view
Dave" Correct – Hebrew satan is NOT your fallen angel ROb" DO you understand what you post? Yep – and I mean it with conviction
Dave" Robert just recently admitted (you) did know the difference between Hades and Tartarus Rob" Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down <yarad> to hell <sh@'owl>, to the sides <y@rekah> of the pit <bowr>.
Hades I get is shoawl. But what hebrew word is Tartarus? Have already answer this ---------------------------------------------------------------
Dave" I call your satan the accuser – and you disagree and say oppose /opposer Rob" OK let's test your English word "accuser"
I guess the scholar doesn't agree with you after all ------------------------------
Dave" What do you mean – do you not understand how references work? What is - (Zodhiates1992:418-21, 1281-2). What is - (Morrish 1976:55, 220) Explain it to me Rob" No idea, not an OT reference/ verse.
I thought you were highly educated and do not recognize standard academic APA FORMAT Both of these are ‘Ibids’ The first time you use a reference within a text (last name – date – title – (vol number if applicable / edition) - page number - publisher The next time you use this same reference you can shorten it to (author – date – page number) Zodhiates1992:418-21, 1281-2. Morrish 1976:55, 220 No wonder you never check your sources
In-Text Citations: The Basics - Purdue OWL When using APA format, follow the author-date method of in-text citation. This means that the author's last name and the year of publication for the source should appear in the text, like, for example, (Jones, 1998). One complete reference for each source should appear in the reference list at the end of the paper.
Is this the same reason you say the Jews never use scripture in their answers?
YEẒER HA-RA': (Redirected from LUST.) Evil inclination or impulse, popularly identified with the lusts of the flesh. The idea is derived from Gen. viii. 21: "the imagination of the heart of man is evil from his youth." Yet from the use of the two "yods" in Gen. ii. 7, the Rabbis deduced that there are in man two Yeẓarim: the good (Yeẓer Ṭob) and the evil (Ber. 61a). Cain defended himself before God for having slain Abel by arguing that God had implanted in him the Yeẓer ha-Ra'(Tan., Bereshit, 25 [ed. Buber, p. 10]). "It lies at the door of the heart like a fly" (Ber. 61a; comp. Beelzebub). Yet in a way the Yeẓer ha-Ra', like all things which God made (Gen. i. 31), is good. Without it, for example, a man would never marry, beget, build a house, or trade (Gen. R. ix. 9). Therefore, man is enjoined to love God with both the Yeẓarim implied in "with all thy heart" of the Shema' (Sifre, Deut. 32 [ed. Friedmann, p. 73a]). It would appear that the Yeẓer Ṭob comes with reflection, and at the age of bar miẓwah or confirmation, because it is said to be thirteen years younger than the Yeẓer ha-Ra', which is an inborn impulse (Eccl. R. ix. 14). The Yeẓer Ṭob delivers the citadel of the body from the Yeẓer ha-Ra' by means of temperance and good works (Ned. 32b). The "little city" of Eccl. ix. 14, 15 is interpreted by the Targum and Eccl. R. (ad loc.) as the kingdom of the heart, and the "great king" who comes against it as the Yeẓer ha-Ra'.
According to the Rabbis, the Yeẓer ha-Ra' has seven different epithets in the Bible: evil (Gen. viii. 21); uncircumcised (Deut. x. 16); unclean (Ps. li. 12); the enemy (Prov. xxv. 21); stumbling-block (Isa. lvii. 14); stone (Ezek. xxxvi. 26); and hidden (Joel ii. 20).
The greater the man the greater his Yeẓer ha-Ra'; and it is among the four things which God regretted to have created (Suk. 52a, b). It is identified with Satan and with the angel of death (B. B. 16a; comp. Maimonides, "Moreh," ii. 12, iii. 22). Against the Yeẓer ha-Ra' the Torah is the great antidote (Suk. 52b; Ḳid. 30b; Ab. R. N. 16). The Yeẓer ha-Ra' grows with a man, as is deduced from the parable in II Sam. xii. 4. At first it is a mere traveler; then it becomes a guest; and at last it is the man himself (Suk. 52b). Yet the heart of man contains both the Yeẓer ha-Ra' and the Yeẓer Ṭob, as is deduced by Midrash Tehillim from Ps. ix.
Are you really this dul? Or do you pretend ignorance so you can get away with making wile accusations and statements
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Post by rob on Aug 18, 2023 16:45:19 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Happy Shabbat Dave" So you reject Covenant theology as presented by Ellen White
Christians have NOT replaced Jews and Israel as his chosen peopleRob" One cannot reject Ellen White the prophetess. 1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings. 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. A requirement of an end time assembly, is for GOD to have had a prophet in the assembly. This is not an optional extra, but necessary for Gentiles coming into the Hebrew assembly to understand Hebrew in English words correctly in truth. Some of the prophecies, given to Ellen White by Jesus: (1) Civil War. “ I have just been shown in vision that a number of States are going to join South Carolinian this secession, and a terrible war will result. In the vision I saw large armies raised by both the North and the South. I was shown the battle raging. I heard the booming cannon, and saw the dead and wounded falling on every side. . . .There was distress and mourning all over the land. . . .There are men in this house who will lose sons in that war.” Ellen G. White, January 12, 1861(2) Printing Articles. "I have a message for you," she said. "You must begin to print a little paper and send it out to the people. Let it be small at first; but as the people read, they will send you means with which to print, and it will be a success from the first. From this small beginning it was shown to me to be like streams of light that went clear round the world."--Life Sketches, p. 125. (3) . The Rochester Rappings and Spiritualism. But in 1848 it was only a mysterious signal code of "rappings" and "knockings." When these communications first became known, many regarded them as a fraud or trick, or some sort of a short-lived delusion. But on March 24, 1849,
Ellen White wrote of a revelation given her regarding this mysterious phenomenon. She predicted that it would become more and more common and would assume a religious garb. Here are her words:
I saw that the mysterious knocking in New York . . . was the power of Satan, and that such things would be more and more common, clothed in a religious garb, so as to lull the deceived to greater security.--Early Writings, p. 43.
(4) Second World War. " The present is a time of overwhelming interest to all living. Rulers and statesmen, men who occupy positions of trust and authority, thinking men and women of all classes, have their attention fixed upon the events taking place about us. They are watching the strained, restless relations that exist among the nations. They observe the intensity that is taking possession of every earthly element, and they recognize that something great and decisive is about to take place--that the world is on the verge of a stupendous crisis."--Education, p. 179. (1903)
Dave" Christians have NOT replaced Jews and Israel as his chosen peopleRob" Hebrews are the only title for saved people. SUch a word means in Hebrew, "to cross over". Such a physical figure was displayed many times, "cross over the red sea" "cross over Jordan river". Dave" You should have watched Dillon video and read his comments before trying guessing to answer his questionROb" Is the video not too long? Please supply the link again for me, and I will watch it. Dave" More of Robert’s fantasy – saraph and cherub are not the same and neither is the dragon of Rev 12:3ROb" Prove me wrong Dave, start with the materials (verses) shown to you in my post. Jews consider saraph a kind of messenger. The word simply means "burning", not a creature name. It's a title for a creature because saraph is never associated with created. On the other hand cherubims are created, and are associated with the term saraph. Isaiah 6:1 and onwards speak of saraph creatures that fly and are close to the throne of God. Isa 6:2 De 8:15 On earth are saraph snakes, hence the term cannot refer to flying creatures only. These snakes are similes of "wilderness and terrible places" Nu 21:6 Saraph was placed on a pole. Isa 14:29 for out of the serpent's root....comes saraph Isa 30:6 Also yet another prophecy Isa 30:3 Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion. The serpent is linked to the saraph qualities of burning. Not fantasy, but torah facts. Dave" The saga of the nephilim and then the rephiem is spelled out within scripture – across the entire tanakROb" Show me some verses than, using the Moses torah first, and than others that are testimonies. Dave" Anything that has come into being was made by God for God.ROb" Does this "Anything" also include SIN Dave? You certainly agree the archons are agents of RA, Entropy and Darkness. I see these are consequences of Sin, so I suppose your God even created SIN, or at least natural consequences of SIN. Dave" You teach this is a flawed world – God tried to make it a tov world but was unable – some other force named satan took over and changed it all to a flawed ra worldROb" No Dave, this is Gnostic view. Gnostics teach GOD created a flawed world, with natural agents of RA, Entropy and Darkness. Natural death, decomposition, seasons of winter and summer, coal under the ground, so plants also die and decay. Just because a perfect sinless world has some sinning angels living under the earth does not make the perfect world flawed. What definition is this? I have asked you before, how else could GOD demonstrate SINNING to the unfallen worlds, with creating a perfect sinless world over the earth for them to watch and see. You have never answered my question? If SIN came to exist in the sinless worlds of GOD, what was GOD to do with this SIN, which by the way is not normally allowed to exist under a perfect absolute GOD. You say God requires testing free will to develop loving creatures, is bogus. In my view cherubims are all with free will, lived with God for trillions of years, and never once did they choose anything else by God and His love, until one did exercise his free will differently. No agents of RA required.Your premise of testing / develop free will is bogus. It is not necessary to slap your wife daily to see if she will love her, she loves you already daily. What kind of silly theories do you invent. And explain to me why the angels in heaven do not have free will? Prove this robotic thing to me? You can't? But I can prove to you cherubs have free will, because they can sin. Dave" Now where is your answer? Empirical evidence is something you can touch and feel - measureROb" I see. You cannot touch faith powers, but they flow over you when you ask for them. You cannot touch electricity, but you can experience its shock upon muscles if connected to the power, that is invisible but real. You cannot touch or see atoms at their smallest levels, for when we try, light is too big, and electrons too large, and the smallest we go, the atoms vanishes into motions of nothingness. I have since learned from science and man's collection of science, is that it is flawed and possibly mostly wrong. We were taught foods are broken down to amino acids and fats, is bogus, most foods pass into our gut DNA intact and all. So trusting empirical evidence is shaky ground. So the only empirical evidence we have is the torah, the messages GOD has chosen to give to humans. Trust this. Dave" Where is your evidence – Don Patton is an a buffoonROb" So sad you think this? I loved his expedition to reach Noah's ark on the mount, drilled a hole and found evidence, so hard to get there, so dangerous too. He is a real person and his evidence is also real. What about the fossil tracks of humans walking with dinosaurs, this confounded many universities, so much some fly back to the spot and chiselled away the evidence, He speaks to layman people in simple easy language, not to scholars who say he is a buffoon. He likes to keep things simple (a saying from Einstein). ---------------------------------- Dave" And secondly, do you agree the Hebrew word "STN" is the same concept as the Greek word "satanas"?
Same conceptROb" Wow. Thank you. Dave" Correct – Hebrew satan is NOT the BEAST of RevelationROb" Huh? Dave" OK – Ill play - For the OT – lets call him Jimmy – or we could use satan For the NT – lets call the Beast Mary – or we could use satanasROb" Oh so we cannot be serious? Dave" Most (Catholic) scholars on the www see hebrew STN as the same creature as Greek Satanas, so I would pose One English word for both OT and NT sources.ROb" OH, so it would be easy for you to supply me several scholars who supply two English words than Hebrew STN ( one word for one creature "Jimmy" ?) Greek satanas ( one word for another different creature "Mary" ?) OK where is your scholar links? Prove the necessary for TWO English words. Dave" Your entire theology is based upon your mantra - satan hates and opposes God – your Great Controversy is based upon your satan rebelling against God – opposing God – you cannot say it enoughROb" NO Dave, I follow torah as the torah leads. I gave you a Numbers 22:22 context. Answer my questionThe messenger was not accusing the ass on the road, but blocking the passage along the road with a sword, this is termed in my world "opposing" so the messenger functioned as an "opposer". Not an accuser. And not as some adversary, as others do. The ass is an innocent animal. The wicked prophet sitting on the animal is different. Question: Does GOD accuse humans? Would GOD send a messenger to accuse humans? Is there any evidence of this? Might help your cause? Dave" The reference I posted here for you recently said 750,000 textual variations Should each and every one be footnoted? The footnotes would outweigh the scripture – so there is a ‘rule’ man uses to decide just how big of a variation deserves a footnoteROb" Are you saying Genesis has thousands of different Hebrew words different from the first Genesis every written by Moses? Moses wrote paleo Hebrew too. Not modern Hebrew. Jeff benner says Jews have lost the letter "g", so yes some problems do exist in some words. Give me some examples please, you are the scholar, I am willing to learn of this. Dave" But where did satanas come from? Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragonRob" Would this not be in Hebrew these words? Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day <yowm> the LORD <Y@hovah> with his sore <qasheh> and great <gadowl> and strong <chazaq> sword <chereb> shall punish <paqad> leviathan <livyathan> the piercing <bariyach> serpent <nachash>, even leviathan <livyathan> that crooked <`aqallathown> serpent <nachash>; and he shall slay <harag> the dragon < tanniyn> that is in the sea <yam>. "tanniyn" for dragon? Can you confirm this with the LXX please? Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, So this creature is also termed "devil and satanas" Can you confirm this with the LXX please what these words were in Hebrew? Dave" This is why satanas is of Chaldean originRob" OK, but what does the LXX say? this is important otherwise we cannot read the NT word satanas with any certainty as the word has no OT torah origin. Dave" Surely the answer has to be Hebrew STN, Is your assumption to force scripture into your own viewROb" OK, show me what the LXX says? It's very hard for me to read the LXX easily, which one, all I have is a paper electronic copy. You are a Greek expert, should be easy for you. Dave" Yep – and I mean it with convictionROb" OK, do you agree the saraph creatures are reference to creatures closest to Gods throne? Dave" Have already answer thisROb" Not in Hebrew, often referred to rubbish pit in Jersaluem. Dave" I guess the scholar doesn't agree with you after allROb" Funny but you are right, he doesn't agree with me. I am unique with my word meanings than arn't I ? How many scholars agree that words (verb and noun) same spelling is the same word? "He went to love her with his love" So here are two different love word meanings is bogus? Same meanings for both uses. Really scholars need to wake up to what languages are. " is derived from a" is really saying the word in a noun form is allowed to be different from its verb form is TOTALLY bogus. Both words must have the same meaning, but differences in action. Jeff Benner principle. Dave" No wonder you never check your sourcesROb" Yeah I suspected that, but no OT verse. Dave" Are you really this dull? ROb" Dave would you read my posts if I only alluded you to my website as links, with little else written here? I doubt you would read anything. And if every word I wrote had footnote numbers would you read my words? I used to invent bigger words on purpose ( one I remember was "uri-environmental potential" ) once at Uni with references and footnotes, after all the stuff we had to study did the same thing. How stupid my paper was 10 pages long and 20 pages of appendix. It was impossible to read. One can play this pride game of making the grassroot laymen not able to read scholar stuff. Ever tried reading medical papers? Full of idioms and big words. Now I notice yet again you failed to answer my questionsthis is the third time I have asked of you? 1) Did the LXX ever use the word satanas in Greek? And if so what Hebrew word was this the LXX translated from? 2) What word are you wanting to use for Hebrew STN, so it means prosecutor I suppose for you? And what word are you using for Greek word satanas, so we can begin studying these two creatures correctly. You also have to prove the necessity for two English words. 3) If the word Greek-satanas has no OT origin, how does one align the latter torah with the former torah? Ho 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth. This prophecy says Jesus words come in a former torah and a latter torah, so both writings must have harmony, the first explains the latter. So where is the OT torah explaining Greek satanas?You need one. Please supply a scholar link proving what Greek satanas is about. Here is a problem already? My King james version of Is 27:1 has Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day <yowm> the LORD <Y@hovah> with his sore <qasheh> and great <gadowl> and strong <chazaq> sword <chereb> shall punish <paqad> leviathan <livyathan> the piercing <bariyach> serpent <nachash>, even leviathan <livyathan> that crooked <`aqallathown> serpent <nachash>; and he shall slay <harag> the dragon <tanniyn> that is in the sea <yam> Has only one Hebrew word for dragon, tanniyn, but this LXX source lists the same Hebrew word three times? And it seems the same as the Textus Receptus Rev 12:3 ? Can you confirm this Dave please? Notice the LXX I am using translates Hebrew STN as "satav" What is going on here? I thought the LXX translated these words are all devil? archive.org/details/InterlinearGreekEnglishSeptuagintOldTestamentPrint/page/n1585/mode/1upShalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 19, 2023 2:10:03 GMT -5
Dave" So you reject Covenant theology as presented by Ellen WhiteChristians have NOT replaced Jews and Israel as his chosen peopleRob" One cannot reject Ellen White the prophetess. I do at the top of my lungs – I will scream it from the roof tops I do not even consider Ellen White or the SDA a Christian centered group. You teach salvation is conditional – faith is complicated – the idea of One True God is a joke to you – but you call satan a god – and you absolutely deny the spirit To me, Ellen White and her failed prophesy group is no more Christian than the Jehovah’s Witness (who also deny the spirit and teach only biology) – or the Mormon LDS movement that teach Jesus and satan are twin brothers All 3 groups from the Second Great Awakening of the mid 1800s Appearing on the planet at the same time as Islamic Bahai Faith and the advent math borrowed by Ellen White Look - 1) Ellen White includes Bahai Islam 2) Bahai Islam publishes Ellen White's books 3) Bahai Islam quote Ellen White Why wouldn't you ever discuss this relationship with Islam? ----------------------------------------------------------- Dave" Christians have NOT replaced Jews and Israel as his chosen people Rob" Hebrews are the only title for saved people. SUch a word means in Hebrew, "to cross over". Such a physical figure was displayed many times, "cross over the red sea" "cross over Jordan river". Your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand – is 1948 Israel prophetic Jer 29:14 Then I will be found by you,” says Adonai, “and I will return you from exile, and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you,” says Adonai, “and I will bring you back to the place from which I removed you as captives into exile.” The Jews have been returned to the Promised Land and now the end-of-days begin – have begun – the march toward a war between Israel as a Nation in the Promised land and her neighbors (who are all Muslim bowing to Allah)---------------------------------------------------- Dave" You should have watched Dillon video and read his comments before trying guessing to answer his question ROb" Is the video not too long? Please supply the link again for me, and I will watch it. So you admit it – you have been talking out your ass on a topic you did not even review.WOW – way to amaze us with your extreme seriousness to this forum. Dillon invited you to his thread - DISPENSATIONALISM vs. COVENANT THEOLOGYWOW doesn’t this makes sense. Covenant theology teaches that the “church” replaced Israel as the focal point of all scripture. Making the theology Rome-centric. It is all about Rome. 11:40 – I – I – I – The LORD – I – they will look on me Jesus Christ is God in human flesh – God incarnate As I said I love it. Thank You
How can Robert read this and deny the Trinity?------------------------------------------ Dave" The saga of the nephilim and then the rephiem is spelled out within scripture – across the entire tanak ROb" Show me some verses than, using the Moses torah first, and than others that are testimonies. Post FloodNum 13:33 We also saw there the Nephilim. (The sons of Anak are from the Nephilim.) We seemed like grasshoppers in our eyes as well as theirs!” The sons of Anak – the 7 tribes of Amorite Rephiem ----------------------------------------------- Dave" Anything that has come into being was made by God for God. ROb" Does this "Anything" also include SIN Dave? so I suppose your God even created SIN, Look at how disingenuousness you are – what a thing to say I can see your ass all the way from AmericaSin is a choice – a free will choice Yes – God provided all the options tov and ra But your choice is your choice alone Dave" You teach this is a flawed world – God tried to make it a tov world but was unable – some other force named satan took over and changed it all to a flawed ra world ROb" No Dave, this is Gnostic view. Gnostics teach GOD created a flawed world, with natural agents of RA, Entropy and Darkness. Natural death, decomposition, seasons of winter and summer, coal under the ground, so plants also die and decay. 1) seasons of winter and summer,- only proves you have no respect for who I am – what I stand for – or what I teach2) The Gnostic view has nothing to do with a weak Creator - 3) the Gnostic view – mainstream Christianity – Judaism – science – creation does not start tov and then change Yes – the perfect world rediscovered by Roman 1:19 is finely tuned for life to thrive – nature in a functional balance – and I have 10s of thousands of museums filled with the empirical evidence And God looked at it and called it tov You say God requires testing free will to develop loving creatures, is bogus.I have never said this Mr Honest – I have quoted scripture to youDeu 8:2 You are to remember all the way that Adonai your God has led you these 40 years in the wilderness—in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not. bibleproject.com/podcast/god-tests-his-chosen-ones/God Tests His Chosen OnesNobody likes tests. But the test is a recurring pattern in the biblical story for how God relates to his chosen ones. So are humans just lab rats in a divine experiment, or is there something else going on? Your premise of testing is bogus.You can choose to disagree with scripture - deny it all you want It is what Ellen White has taught you------------------------------------------------ In my view cherubims are all with free will, lived with God for trillions of years, and never once did they choose anything else by God and His love, until one did exercise his free will differently. This is 100% Catholic Catechism – almost word for word It is not necessary to slap your wife daily to see if she will love her, she loves you already daily. What an extremely intelligent comment------------------------------------------- Dave" Where is your evidence – Don Patton is an a buffoon He is a real person and his evidence is also real. What about the fossil tracks of humans walking with dinosaurs, this confounded many universities, so much some fly back to the spot and chiselled away the evidence, I have zero respect for the Don Patton material you posted here in the pst - you need to go back and finish defending him - you stopped part wat through humans walking with dinosaurs, - it is clear you do not know who I am or what I teach - your respect is overwhelming - Christian He speaks to layman people in simple easy language, not to scholars who say he is a buffoon. He likes to keep things simple (a saying from Einstein). Only the poorly educated buy into his pseudo-science He and creationist like him have done as much to harm the faith Darwin has ---------------------------------- Dave" Your entire theology is based upon your mantra - satan hates and opposes God – your Great Controversy is based upon your satan rebelling against God – opposing God – you cannot say it enough ROb" NO Dave, I follow torah as the torah leads. SO – today you announce you are formally giving up your entire teaching that your satan hates and opposes God
What happens to Ellen White and the Great Controversy if you give up your own teaching?
--------------------------------------------------- Answer my question The messenger was not accusing the ass on the road, but blocking the passage along the road with a sword, this is termed in my world "opposing" so the messenger functioned as an "opposer". Not an accuser. And not as some adversary, as others do. Accuser / opposer is a STUPID word game you play - only you are confused------------------------------------------------ Question: Does GOD accuse humans? Would GOD send a messenger to accuse humans?Zec 3 – Hebrew satan the heavenly prosecutor – but your word game prevents you from seeing scripture Job - God sent satan unto Job Dave" The reference I posted here for you recently said 750,000 textual variations Should each and every one be footnoted? The footnotes would outweigh the scripture – so there is a ‘rule’ man uses to decide just how big of a variation deserves a footnote ROb" Are you saying Genesis has thousands of different Hebrew words different from the first Genesis every written by Moses? Moses wrote paleo Hebrew too. Not modern Hebrew. Jeff benner says Jews have lost the letter "g", so yes some problems do exist in some words. Without a doubt – you prove your lack of formal education A textual variant can be punctuation – spelling / especially verb tense – missing letters – missing words – or inserted words Have you ever read a book? Dave" But where did satanas come from? Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon Rob" Would this not be in Hebrew these words?Too bad – I will not rewrite scripture to please you
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon wa s thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, So this creature is also termed "devil and satanas"
Can you confirm this with the LXX please what these words were in Hebrew?Now you openly admit you doubt the NT as the word of God Dave" Yep – and I mean it with conviction ROb" OK, do you agree the saraph creatures are reference to creatures closest to Gods throne? jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13437-seraphimSERAPHIM Class of heavenly beings, mentioned only once in the Old Testament, in a vision of the prophet Isaiah (vi. 2 et seq.). Isaiah saw several seraphim, their exact number not being given, standing before the throne of Yhwh. They were winged beings, each having six wings—two covering their faces, two covering their feet, and two for flying. The seraphim cry continually to each other, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory" (vi. 3). The "foundations of the thresholds" (R. V.) of the Temple were moved by the sound of their voices. One of the seraphim flew to Isaiah with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar, and with which he touched the lips of the prophet to purge him from sin. ---------------------------------------- Dave" Have already answer this ROb" Not in Hebrew, often referred to rubbish pit in Jersaluem. You cannot imagine how irritating you are – I did answer your question to the best of my ability – either you did not read my answer – or you blew it offKeep up this level of academic application and you will leave here again – I have more important things to do if you refuse to take this discussion seriously Dictionary of DaveHades never means Baptist hell – surfer/brimstone pit of fire Hades means – Not seen – in Greek all the dead were in hades – not seen Hades is equivalent to shoel – the grave Tartarus is the deepest ugliest part of hades – Baptist hell Equivalent to Hebrew Gehenna – the trash heap that is burnt away ------------------------------------------- Dave" No wonder you never check your sources ROb" Yeah I suspected that, but no OT verse. Dave" Are you really this dull? ROb" Dave would you read my posts if I only alluded you to my website as links, When I went to your website I checked everything and you didn’t like it You are a lazy researcher – only look at the surface------------------------------------------------- Now I notice yet again you failed to answer my questions this is the third time I have asked of you? 1) Did the LXX ever use the word satanas in Greek? I will repeat the same answer as I gave you before – of the 2000 known ancient LXX - your research found some that did and some that didn’t – I have the textus receptus in Greek with strongs numbers – satanas = 0 found
2) What word are you wanting to use for Hebrew STN, so it means prosecutor I suppose for you? What is wrong with scripture’s choice - satanAnd what word are you using for Greek word satanas, so we can begin studying these two creatures correctly. What is wrong with scripture’s choice – satanasYou also have to prove the necessity for two English words. Satan – is a Hebrew angel in the service to the Lord Satanas – is of the BEAST that deceives the whole world 3) If the word Greek-satanas has no OT origin, how does one align the latter torah with the former torah? Your method so far is to deny the NT Gospel - ChristianP.S. - the thread 'Robert's Proof' is still waiting for your response
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Post by rob on Aug 19, 2023 4:56:38 GMT -5
Greetings Dave You wrote a lot of negative things, but I am really been studying the LXX all afternoon in some attempt to link the NT to it's OT hebrew origins. This is necessary because in Isaiah it says one must use the Moses torah to make the NT come under a light of dawn. Consider this context: Context ONE, usiing BOTH forms of STN (verb and noun) Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (STN-NOUN) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. 23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. 24 But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side. 25 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again. 26 And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left. 27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff. 28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? 29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. 30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. 31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. 32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand (STN-VERB) thee, because thy way is perverse before me: 33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive. 34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.-------------------- Dave's suggested comments on this study is this Satan – is a Hebrew angel in the service to the Lord Satanas – is of the BEAST that deceives the whole world Robs comments: " The word "STN" is your choice, and you do not wish to supply me with an English translation. Question" How can a messenger of YHWH also become a STN who is a servant of the Lord, the context is clearly about a function, not a title. -------------SO in my studies I read this---------------- It came to Latin from Hebrew (שָּׂטָן satan), through Greek (Σατανᾶς satanas) and means enemy, adversary. In Judaism and Christianity, it is also one of the names given to the devil, a supernatural creature that lead a rebelion against God and one of the main instigators of evil in the World.ROb's comments" accuser does not fit. The messenger was not accusing the donkey nor accusing Balaam. The context is about the messenger blocking the road and stopping the donkey moving along the passage of the way. adversary does not fit. The messenger is NOT a donkey's enemy or opponent. The only word meanings that fit is "oppose". This word does not imply one is bad or the other good, nor that one is accusing another or is an opponent to the other. This secular meaning in htis context is simply to oppose the animal walking on the way. --------Than I read about a scholar who writes------------------------ Comments regading satanas the Greek word, from Latin grammar point of view
The -as ending is purely grammatical. As can be seen, it was added in ancient Greek as a common ending of nouns in that language. Modified first (as with most masculine Greek names ending in -as: n. -as, v. -a, acc. -am, etc.) In Greek it is masculine first, if I am not mistaken. – If I am not mistaken, שָּׂטָן literally means "adversary," translated into Greek as "διάβολος," from which Latin gets "diabolus" and English "devil." It's a similar case with "Messias," which is sometimes transliterated into Greek and other times translated as "Christus." – Satan originally doesn’t mean enemy but accuser. This is particularly clear in the book of Iob. – The -as here is actually the Greek masculine ending -ᾱς. It's a dialectal variation on the -ης (-ēs) you see in names like Socrates, Euripides, Achilles, and so on: probably the most common ending for male names in Ancient Greek.
So when people started translating the Bible and the Torah into Ancient Greek, and came across the word שָׂטָן (satan, "adversary"), they had two choices for how to represent it. One option was to translate it literally, with the Greek word διάβολος (diábolos, "betrayer"). The other option was to take the word satan and just respell it in the Greek alphabet as σαταν.
In the end, translators weren't consistent. Sometimes they used diábolos, sometimes they used satan. But satan doesn't look much like a Greek word, and if anything would be an accusative form, which is just confusing. So since the Hebrew satan is masculine, they stuck the most common Greek masculine ending onto it, creating Satanâs.
When the Bible then came into Latin, the translators had three options: translate the word again into Latin, transcribe the Greek word, or transcribe the Hebrew word. They generally chose the second, so the Latin Vulgate has diabolus and Satanas (whence English "diabolical", "Satanic").
You'll also often see the form Satana with no final -s (as in the Exorcism of Saint Benedict, which starts vade retro Satana, "go back, Satan"). This is what happens when the word assimilates a little bit into Latin: the native Latin equivalent of Greek -ās is -a. It's very close to the original Greek form found in Homer, -ᾱ (-ā), and it's the form we see in older borrowings like poeta "poet". It's more Latin than the Greek -ās, so it's more common for thoroughly assimilated words than for names (the legendary hero Aeneas always keeps his -s).
P.S. One of the easiest ways to distinguish Ancient Greek dialects is how they deal with long alphas in endings. Ionian always turns them into etas, Dorian and Aeolian never do, Attic varies depending on what letter comes before it. So if you see the -es in an ancient name, it most likely came to us via Athens.
P.P.S. A plain -a ending would also mark the vocative, the form used when speaking to someone directly. This would be correct for the context of the Exorcism formula—but the vocative case died and fossilized quite early, and you'll also see Satanas in direct speech and Satana in other positions. It was always the most neglected of the "traditional" Latin cases, and you'll frequently see "errors" like Domine Deus, agnus Dei ("Lord God" in the vocative, "Lamb of God" in the nominative).-------------------And another comment--------------------------- Does the word Satan ever show up in the New Testament? Satan is a Hebrew word that means adversary. The New Testament is written in Greek. So I guess not. It seems that they have another word. Diabolos or something that means the devil. Is that devil the same guy as Satan?
Yes. The Hebrew שָׂטָן (āṭān) is frequently transliterated into Greek as ףבפבם (satan) or ףבפבםᾶע (satanas) — 36 times in the New Testament. The word היגןכןע (diabolos) is also used (37 times).
Diabolos is technically an adjective meaning “slanderous”, and it is occasionally used attributively, describing people (e.g. 1 Tim 3:11). However, like satan(as) — which in the Hebrew Bible generally refers to a/the a/Adversary — the more common NT usage is as a designation of a particular transcedent evil being.
Most English translations reflect the distinction between these words by using “Satan” for [ho] satan(as) or “the devil” for [ho] diabolos. (Both occur most often with the article ho.) For instance, in Matthew 4:1-11, the story of the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, the narrator uses ὁ היגןכןע (ho diabolos) repeatedly; Jesus addresses the same character as ףבפבםᾶ (satana, vocative from satanas) in verse 10:
ὕנבדו, ףבפבםᾶ· Be gone, Satan! (ESV)
Revelation 20:2 also makes it clear that the referent is the same:
ךבὶ ἐךספחףום פὸם הסךןםפב, ὁ ὄציע ὁ ἀסקבῖןע, ὅע ἐףפים ִיגןכןע ךבὶ ὁ ׃בפבםᾶע, ךבὶ ἔהחףום בὐפὸם קכיב ἔפח
and he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil (ִיגןכןע, diabolos) and Satan (ὁ ׃בפבםᾶע, ho satanas), and bound him for a thousand years (ESV)
The preferred term in the Septuagint for translating the Hebrew āṭān from into Greek is diabolos. See, for instance, Job. The only usages of the Greek transliteration satan I find are two appearances in 3 Reigns 11:14, corresponding to 1 Kings 11 vv. 14 and 25 in the Hebrew/English numbering. These refer to Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the son of Eliada - each “an adversary” raised up by God against Solomon and Israel, respectively.
Why the New Testament authors often preferred to use the transliterated Hebrew term despite the established Septuagint usage in of diabolos as a translation of āṭān is beyond me, and probably beyond the scope of this question, but it is an interesting one. And by another scholar While the Hebrew word השׁטן (saw-tawn') occurs 23 times in the OT, rendered as Satan a total of 17 times in the NET (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Zech 3:1-2), with the other occurrences being translated variously as accuser, adversary, enemy, or to oppose, the Greek words ףבפם and ףבפבםᾶע occur 36 times in the NT, rendered every time as Satan in the NET.-----------------In another study I found this------------------------- " Satan" (׃בפבםᾶע) is from the Greek word satanas, which is an Aramaic and Hebrew word meaning "adversary," "opponent," or "one who opposes another in purpose or act." It is neither a positive or negative word, depending on who or what is opposed. Jesus uses it only thirteen times, but he uses it consistent with its Greek meaning but always in a negative sense.
Our word "Satan" is from the Greek form satanas from a Hebrew satan ( שטן) meaning "adversary," "opponent," or "one who opposes another in purpose or act. " The Greek version of this word appears initially only in thirteen times in Jesus's words. Interestingly, the Greek Septuagint usually translates the Hebrew word satan into the Greek word diabolos, which means "slanderer," (see this article) but which is translated in the English NT as "devils" or "demons." "Satan" is also translated to related words such as ἐנίגןץכןע, epםvoulos, which means "treacherous." The Greek word ׃בפבםᾶע appears for the first time and only time in the Greek OT at 1Ki 11:14. The story that features "Satan" most prominently, that of Job, the Greek word diabolos is used.
In my earlier work, I translated satanas, the Greek word translated as "Satan," as "adversity" or "adversary," which is the direct Aramaic meaning of the word, but more recently as "suffering" because many of the verses translate better that way.
Conflated with Other Words Some insight into this word comes from where it is used in Mark 4:15 to describe who takes away the seeds sown by the wayside. In Matthew 13:19, this role is played by "the wicked one" from the adjective poneros, (see this article), which has more the sense of "the worthless one." Luke 8:12 uses the term diabolos, which is usually translated as "devil" but means "slanderous," (see this article). The term is also conflated with "Beelzebub," which is used to describe the master of devils (Matthew 12:27), but there it no association with the word satanas in the verse.
In the Greek Septuagint, the word diabolos is first used in Num 22:32, but the Hebrew word שטן is first used in Num 22:22. In this first occurrence, this word is translated into Greek as ἐםהיבגάככש, endiabollos, which seems a variation on diabolos. In 1Sa 29:4, 2Sa 19:22, and 1Ki 5:4, this word is translated as ἐנίגןץכןע, epםvoulos, which means "treacherous." The Greek word ׃בפבםᾶע appears for the first time and only time in the Greek OT at 1Ki 11:14. After that, all translated of the Hebrew word seem to be to diabolos.
Part of the confusion about the "devil," "satan," and even "demons" is that the Gospel writers (Matthew and Luke) use this term to describe the person who tempts Jesus during his forty days in the desert. Though we do not have Christ's words describing this event, we know that it could have only come from his recounting it because he was the only one there. During the encounter, the term "devil" certainly applies, since the tempter seeks to get Christ to degrade himself, but at the end of the encounter, Christ addresses his tempter as "Satan," but he doesn't use this as a name (see below). It is simply as a description, "adversary." Since this story is clearly about a spiritual being (or one that inhabits the mind), the term "demon" also apply to the tempter, though Christ doesn't use that term any more than he uses the term "devil."
Satan" as Adversity The meaning that Satan has today as the name of "the chief of evil spirits" comes from Christian traditions unknown at the time the Gospels were written. The Hebrew word was not a name, but a descriptive noun. King David is described as an adversary of his enemies with the term "satan." Even in the story of Job, where the adversary is personalized, the Hebrew "satan" is never used as a name, since it is used with a definite article ("the"), which Hebrew never does with proper names, "the adversary." More about the meaning of the Hebrew word from the Old Testament in this Bible Topics article.
In the Hebrew sense, "satan" means "an adversary" or more generally, "adversity" in the sense of "life's adversity" and, even more, "the accuser" in the sense of our inner voice of self-doubt.
Christ uses the word only three times in Matthew (Matthew 4:10 Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God..., Matthew 12:26 And if Satan casts out Satan, Matthew 16:23 Get behind me, Satan). While he uses it to address someone twice, he does not use it as a name. This is an artifact of poor translation. In the Greek, the word is clearly not in the form of an address (called vocative) but in the form of an object of the verb. In other words, Christ is describing these people as an adversary, not calling them a name. The sense in the Greek in Matthew 4:10 is not "go away, Satan" but more like "take away adversity" or "take away a barrier.""Satan" (׃בפבםᾶע) is from the Greek word satanas, which is an Aramaic and Hebrew word meaning "adversary," "opponent," or "one who opposes another in purpose or act." It is neither a positive or negative word, depending on who or what is opposed. Jesus uses it only thirteen times, but he uses it consistent with its Greek meaning but always in a negative sense.
Our word "Satan" is from the Greek form satanas from a Hebrew satan ( שטן) meaning "adversary," "opponent," or "one who opposes another in purpose or act. " The Greek version of this word appears initially only in thirteen times in Jesus's words. Interestingly, the Greek Septuagint usually translates the Hebrew word satan into the Greek word diabolos, which means "slanderer," (see this article) but which is translated in the English NT as "devils" or "demons." "Satan" is also translated to related words such as ἐנίגןץכןע, epםvoulos, which means "treacherous." The Greek word ׃בפבםᾶע appears for the first time and only time in the Greek OT at 1Ki 11:14. The story that features "Satan" most prominently, that of Job, the Greek word diabolos is used.
In my earlier work, I translated satanas, the Greek word translated as "Satan," as "adversity" or "adversary," which is the direct Aramaic meaning of the word, but more recently as "suffering" because many of the verses translate better that way.--------------- Rob's comments: The Author does not consider Numbers 22:22. Why would a messenger of GOD be an adversary to a donkey or a wicked human profit? There are no Bible verses where GOD accuses humans in this manner, although the messenger says he would kill Balaam had the donkey not turned away and walked off the road. Clearly the messenger is blocking the road initially and later from the context, seems to be concerned over Balaam's intent as a human of sinning against to curse Israel. I do not not see anywhere where the messenger is accusing Balaam of anything. The messenger was opposing the donkey's passage on the road. ----------------- Conflated with Other Words Some insight into this word comes from where it is used in Mark 4:15 to describe who takes away the seeds sown by the wayside. In Matthew 13:19, this role is played by "the wicked one" from the adjective poneros, (see this article), which has more the sense of "the worthless one." Luke 8:12 uses the term diabolos, which is usually translated as "devil" but means "slanderous," (see this article). The term is also conflated with "Beelzebub," which is used to describe the master of devils (Matthew 12:27), but there it no association with the word satanas in the verse.
In the Greek Septuagint, the word diabolos is first used in Num 22:32, but the Hebrew word שטן is first used in Num 22:22. In this first occurrence, this word is translated into Greek as ἐםהיבגάככש, endiabollos, which seems a variation on diabolos. In 1Sa 29:4, 2Sa 19:22, and 1Ki 5:4, this word is translated as ἐנίגןץכןע, epםvoulos, which means "treacherous." The Greek word ׃בפבםᾶע appears for the first time and only time in the Greek OT at 1Ki 11:14. After that, all translated of the Hebrew word seem to be to diabolos.
Part of the confusion about the "devil," "satan," and even "demons" is that the Gospel writers (Matthew and Luke) use this term to describe the person who tempts Jesus during his forty days in the desert. Though we do not have Christ's words describing this event, we know that it could have only come from his recounting it because he was the only one there. During the encounter, the term "devil" certainly applies, since the tempter seeks to get Christ to degrade himself, but at the end of the encounter, Christ addresses his tempter as "Satan," but he doesn't use this as a name (see below). It is simply as a description, "adversary." Since this story is clearly about a spiritual being (or one that inhabits the mind), the term "demon" also apply to the tempter, though Christ doesn't use that term any more than he uses the term "devil."
Satan" as Adversity The meaning that Satan has today as the name of "the chief of evil spirits" comes from Christian traditions unknown at the time the Gospels were written. The Hebrew word was not a name, but a descriptive noun. King David is described as an adversary of his enemies with the term "satan." Even in the story of Job, where the adversary is personalized, the Hebrew "satan" is never used as a name, since it is used with a definite article ("the"), which Hebrew never does with proper names, "the adversary." More about the meaning of the Hebrew word from the Old Testament in this Bible Topics article.
In the Hebrew sense, "satan" means "an adversary" or more generally, "adversity" in the sense of "life's adversity" and, even more, "the accuser" in the sense of our inner voice of self-doubt.
Christ uses the word only three times in Matthew (Matthew 4:10 Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God..., Matthew 12:26 And if Satan casts out Satan, Matthew 16:23 Get behind me, Satan). While he uses it to address someone twice, he does not use it as a name. This is an artifact of poor translation. In the Greek, the word is clearly not in the form of an address (called vocative) but in the form of an object of the verb. In other words, Christ is describing these people as an adversary, not calling them a name. The sense in the Greek in Matthew 4:10 is not "go away, Satan" but more like "take away adversity" or "take away a barrier."www.christswords.com/main/content/satanROb's summary: I have spent numerous hours looking for some scholarly remark about satanas and where this term came from. I really do not think you have some scholar on the Internet Dave, willing to make Greek word satanas as a different creature to the Hebrew word Satan. If there was no LXX using satanas, your theory might be OK, but some say the LXX does use this Greek word once? But there is the Greek word diabolos, which links Hebrew STN to your beast in Rev 12 as the same creature, destroying your theory completely. So Dave you have to come up with some way to verify your theory using the LXX and the OT. RObPP" If the word Greek-satanas has no OT origin, how does one align the latter torah with the former torah?Dave" Your method so far is to deny the NT Gospel - ChristianROb" NO Dave, I do not deny the NT use of satanas in Greek, for as far as I am concerned, the word is exactly the same as the Hebrew word Satan. There is NO different creature in the Bible as you claim. I cannot verify your claims anywhere, either in the LXX or any Bible scholar. You really have to start showing me your scholars who agree with you, because I cannot find any. I have found it's really difficult finding any LXX willing to claim what you claim. Even if one verse in the LXX uses Hebrew satan as Greek satanas, your theory is shot to pieces. I cannot find any LXX source either way, it's very confusing. When you first showed me your Greek Satanas and your one verse with Hebrew Satan, it really threw me, but since my hours with different LXX versions, I cannot verify why the NT uses the term satanas at all? So it's really up to you to prove the OT has some mention of this Greek word satanas. And it has to, otherwise the latter torah is not in harmony with the former torah. And your theories have no light of dawn. (Isaiah 8) As for the rest of your post, I do admire you, and I do not mock you or your theories of Gnostic thinking. However I cannot find any way to validate them using the OT torah and the LXX, which is the way the NT torah brings these messages into OT harmony. Your idea of two different creatures is really out there, and totally different to the OT torah. Where is your beast mentioned in the OT as the creature Satanas? Maybe we could verify this in the OT? Re 20:2 And <kai> he laid hold on <krateo> the dragon <drakon>, that old <archaios> serpent <ophis>, which <hos> is <esti> the Devil <diabolos>, and <kai> Satan <Satanas>,What Hebrew words does the LXX make these Greek words from? satanas ? nobody knows dragon? I have looked this one up? but am confused? diabolos ? WOW, every time this word is used in the LXX, it refers to the Hebrew word STN in the OT.This Dave is a problem for you because the Hebrew word STN, is your other servent of the Lord doing a bad job, and thus the LXX combines both creatures into ONE creature.DO you have any comments on this ? I think I have enough OT proof the LXX considered the satanas, as the diabolos, which is the Hebrew word STN, hence you cannot have two different creatures as you claim/ I am still waiting for you scholar who agrees with your findings, and until I find something to agree on your theory Dave, your claims are not verified by the LXX or the OT torah. David Icke speaks volumes about reptile creatures, even calling them archons once I belief, but never once verifies their existence using the OT torah and the LXX. So it's up to you to prove your writings are inspired of GOD. I cannot find any scholar verifying your claims. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 20, 2023 2:40:15 GMT -5
Satan – is a Hebrew angel in the service to the Lord Satanas – is of the BEAST that deceives the whole world
Robs comments: " The word "STN" is your choice, and you do not wish to supply me with an English translation.
Question" How can a messenger of YHWH also become a STN who is a servant of the Lord, the context is clearly about a function, not a title. God sent satan upon Job – to test Job Did satan rebell against God? Did satan hate God? Did satan oppose God? Answer – NO – how does this prover your satan hates and opposes God
-------------------And another comment--------------------------- Does the word Satan ever show up in the New Testament? Satan is a Hebrew word that means adversary. The New Testament is written in Greek. So I guess not. You know this is not true – or have you chosen to forget again 2Co 12:7 even in the extraordinary quality of the revelations. So that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me—a a messenger of satan to torment me, so I would not exalt myself.
A messenger of Hebrew satan acting as a prosecutor opposing sin – a thorn in my flesh
Satan" as Adversity The meaning that Satan has today as the name of "the chief of evil spirits" comes from Christian traditions unknown at the time the Gospels were written. YES – this is ny teaching – Catholic satan never existed until Rome invented him -----------------
I do not understand this image – what is your point here 1- satanas written outside the text with a link to satan within the text - is this the location of the variation?
1Ki 11:14 Then Adonai raised up an adversary to Solomon, Hadad the Edomite, of the royal line in Edom. (17 words)
1Ki 11:14 Καὶ ἤγειρεν κύριος σαταν τῷ Σαλωμων τὸν Αδερ τὸν Ιδουμαῖον καὶ τὸν Εσρωμ υἱὸν Ελιαδαε τὸν ἐν Ραεμμαθ Αδραζαρ βασιλέα Σουβα κύριον αὐτοῦ· καὶ συνηθροίσθησαν ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν ἄνδρες, καὶ ἦν ἄρχων συστρέμματος καὶ προκατελάβετο τὴν Δαμασεκ· καὶ ἦσαν σαταν τῷ Ισραηλ πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας Σαλωμων. καὶ Αδερ ὁ Ιδουμαῖος ἐκ τοῦ σπέρματος τῆς βασιλείας ἐν Ιδουμαίᾳ· (57 words – talk about a textual variation)
σαταν τῷ Σαλωμων – a satan unto Solomon
συνηθροίσθησαν – G4867 – συναθροίζω - From G4862 and ἀθροίζω athroizō (to hoard); to convene: - call (gather) together.
σαταν τῷ Ισραηλ – a satan unto Israel ------------------------------------------------------------
But there is the Greek word diabolos, which links Hebrew STN to your beast in Rev 12 as the same creature, destroying your theory completely. You forget cultural context – OT Jews had many devils – some as other gods – some as shedim
RObPP" If the word Greek-satanas has no OT origin, how does one align the latter torah with the former torah? Dave" Your method so far is to deny the NT Gospel - Christian ROb" NO Dave, I do not deny the NT
Who is our real struggle – the archon – Eph 6:12 Who made the archon – God did – Col1:16 Who made them – God did because God created everything Rev 4:11 – Col 1:16 – John 1:3
You deny it all and teach that your satan god rebelled againt God – created himself – changed his own role within creation against God’ Will --------------------------------
There is NO different creature in the Bible as you claim. I cannot verify your claims anywhere, Your idea of two different creatures is really out there, and totally different to the OT torah.
There have always been two groups Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Jewish OT has Hebrew satan + 33 other god’s by name and their demons (archon) NT Christianity has Hebrew satan + the Beast and his archon
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Post by Dave on Aug 23, 2023 11:08:53 GMT -5
Textus Rceptus - (57 words) 1Ki 11:14 Καὶ ἤγειρεν κύριος σαταν τῷ Σαλωμων τὸν Αδερ τὸν Ιδουμαῖον καὶ τὸν Εσρωμ υἱὸν Ελιαδαε τὸν ἐν Ραεμμαθ Αδραζαρ βασιλέα Σουβα κύριον αὐτοῦ· καὶ συνηθροίσθησαν ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν ἄνδρες, καὶ ἦν ἄρχων συστρέμματος καὶ προκατελάβετο τὴν Δαμασεκ· καὶ ἦσαν σαταν τῷ Ισραηλ πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας Σαλωμων. καὶ Αδερ ὁ Ιδουμαῖος ἐκ τοῦ σπέρματος τῆς βασιλείας ἐν Ιδουμαίᾳ·
and the king (supreme authority) rose up a satan unto Solomon – Hadad an Israelite a son of Edom – who gathered together all his men – the first men of misery – and presented a satan unto Israel – just like unto gentle Solomon - Hadad an Israelite a son of Edom
HOT+ (11 words) 1Ki 11:14 ויקםH6965 יהוהH3068 שׂטןH7854 לשׁלמהH8010 אתH853 הדדH1908 האדמיH130 מזרעH2233 המלךH4428 הואH1931 באדום׃H123
WLC (12 words) 14 וַיָּקֶם יְהוָה שָׂטָן לִשְׁלֹמֹה אֵת הֲדַד הָאֲדֹמִי מִזֶּרַע הַמֶּלֶךְ הוּא בֶּאֱדֹֽום׃ 15
Elpenor's Bilingual (Greek / English) Old Testament (18 words) 14 και And ήγειρε κύριος [the] LORD raised up σατάν an adversary τω against Σολομών Solomon, τον Αδάρ Hadad τον the Ιδουμαίον Edomite; εκ from out of του the σπέρματος seed της of the βασιλείας kingdom εν in τη Ιδουμαία
1Ki 11:14 (YLT) And Jehovah raiseth up an adversary to Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; of the seed of the king is he in Edom; (21 words)
1Ki 11:14 (TLV) Then Adonai raised up an adversary to Solomon, Hadad the Edomite, of the royal line in Edom. (17 words)
1Ki 11:14 (KJV) And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom. (20 words)
Robert – here is a first hand representation of textual criticism Are they all the same – word for word – letter for letter?
When you began this argument – it was received text – solo sctriptora – textus receptus Then it was Torah only – Hebrew Torah only
Enoch was an absolute untrustworthy source – one error and it all must be garbage
Now you jump to LXX Greek and Enoch both to help support your denominational traditions
It only proves that your strong convictions are not that strong and you are willing to cross any line to validate Ellen White
Don’t post on this thread any more – it is a waste of time
Please continue with the thread ‘Robert’s Proof” and just prove your teaching once and for all Prove to us all from scripture that your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God and that the Catholics have always been the correct authorty
Then watch / read the thread - ‘DISPENSATIONALISM vs. COVENANT THEOLOGY ‘ and teach us why Ellen White and her Covenant doctrine is correct
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