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Post by Dave on Mar 12, 2022 22:00:23 GMT -5
6. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL? EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347). BIBLE: NO "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20). Scripture does not support Ellen White
Rob replies: "He was chosen before the creation of the world," Notice Jesus was chosen to be a sacrifice for sinning should sin occur, before the Adam creation occurred. YES – Always God’s Plan – Always God’s Will – God is Absolute
Think about that verse? Why would GOD have a solution for SIN, before SIN occurs? YES – Always God’s Plan – Always God’s Will – God is Absolute
(1) God knows and plans for all things, and since love has risk, God planned for disobedience. YES – Always God’s Plan – Always God’s Will – God is Absolute No altering His plan for your satan – no having to alter His plan as a reaction to your satan Always God’s Plan – Always God’s Will – God is Absolute 100% Jewish theology
Yes, but the verse says "precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect." Why would GOD plan for the shedding of blood for sinning? Can Dave answer this question? Can anybody on the Internet answer this question?
I have answered this question for you several times – it is the entire point of Christianity You just do not want to hear it – or believe it - because the answer is a spiritual answer and you refuse the spirit
Everyone dies - all men die – Jesus was 100% man – Son of Man - Proof Jesus was just like you and me – tempted and tested to the fullest – When we stand judgment – we have no excuse – no one had it harder than Jesus – to prove that Jesus was truly one of us - 100% biology and all biology passes away in the end
The truth of Jesus Christ is that He did not stay dead – Life Lives – you refuse the idea Christ pour out His spirit and it returned to the heavens - where he went and continued to serve the Lord by preaching to the Lost of the Days of Noah - you refuse the idea
I looked for anybody answering this question, why was Jesus blood shed for sinning? Building up to Crucifixion was 3000 years of prophesy and poetic metaphor about the coming Messiah The method – timing – mode – and circumstances were all orchestrated to satisfy them all
Why couldn't the Father just forgive the sinning for sins, as a part of his grace or kindness? He does – GRACE = unrequited love – even tho we do not love God – He still loves us
Why couldn't the Father just forgive the sinning for sins, as a part of his grace or kindness? Because God is fair – God did forgive Eve – after a life of Jer 1:5 and Gen 3:15 God made a law – man broke it – if God let Eve go without punishment Then what about Hitler – Stalin – Jack the Ripper – serial killers
God is fair – Eve had to repent – to understand the depth of her error Hitler, Stalin, Jack the Ripper all had / have an equal opportunity to repent
This is what Mrs White is talking from this passage: "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man" God showed kindness to Adam when Adam sinned (His wife and himself are considered one flesh in a sinless marriage)
This statement has to include that the plan for atonement was established before God shows His grace, so I find neither statement is in conflict.
Sorry Robert – try arguing the correct quote "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347).
after the fall of man, when a plan was devised - vrs – before the foundation of the world
Question: Is mankind the only creature to have done sinning? Answer no. But Dave ignores this question, and totally creates a different course of looking at torah. The only example of sinning (messengers) in the agl/OT = Gen 6 – you refuse to admit it
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Dave says the verse deals with humans only? Hmm? Yes but it also applies to all creatures created by God, who cause mischief.
Correct – this passage is about how to treat your slaves Exo 21:2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, Exo 21:22 “If men fight, and hit a pregnant woman so that her child is born early, yet no harm follows, the one who hit her is to be strictly fined, according to what the woman’s husband demands of him. He must pay as the judges determine. Exo 21:23 But if any harm follows, then you are to penalize life for life,
You seem to think God creates creatures doing natural mischief.... Please define mischief – Baboons cause a lot of mischief – are they created evil Termites cause a lot of mischief – are they created evil Now that the weather is frigid cold here – the mice are causing mischief – are they created evil
For example the lion with hurt the sheep... YEP – God told the animals - to go forth be fruitful and multiply – it usually requires eating Single cell organisms phagocytized their food Herbivores destroyed plants and grasses by the ton Carnivores ate meat
The lesson from nature – birth – life – death and rebirth Written into every corner of creation to point to that One True Intelligent Designer Rom 1:18-20 + Psa 19:2
Scripture says God did not create the lion as a carnivore, but a herbivore like cattle. You have no scripture to back up your Ellen White teaching
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock. Dispensation – this is speaking to a time without choshek – The Beast – the devil – the satanas – or the false prophets
How come the lion is a carnivore today? Because that is how God created him
So if the laws existed before creation, than there was provision for a life giving sacrifice for sinning creatures. And later when one sinned and forfeit that living, the Saviour immediately agrees to pay the penalty for the mischief caused by the mischief maker.
However Dave does not consider the serpent did any mischief to Eve. And you say your satan is the mischief maker – and - the Saviour immediately agrees to pay the penalty for the mischief caused by the mischief maker So – what are you saying – God plan of salvation is all about your satan?
It might be true that the Serpent did not technically lie to Eve, (not sure I agree with Jeff Benner's claim??) but the serpent did present a false report of GOD, and thus in this sense sinned before God. Here is a false report:
Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: These words negate God's words, and hence is a false report. Why do you deny John 3:16 that you have already said was the Plan before the foundation of the World
NEXT -
8. WAS ADAM DECEIVED BY SATAN? EGW: YES "Satan, who is the father of lies, deceived Adam in a similar way, telling him that he need not obey God, that he would not die if he transgressed the law" (Evangelism, p. 598).
BIBLE: NO = 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
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Post by Dave on Mar 13, 2022 11:44:44 GMT -5
Gen 3:6 καὶ εἶδεν ἡ γυνὴ ὅτι καλὸν τὸ ξύλον εἰς βρῶσιν καὶ ὅτι ἀρεστὸν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἰδεῖν καὶ ὡραῖόν ἐστιν τοῦ κατανοῆσαι, καὶ λαβοῦσα τοῦ καρποῦ αὐτοῦ ἔφαγεν· καὶ ἔδωκεν καὶ τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς μετ᾿ αὐτῆς, καὶ ἔφαγον.
καὶ τῷ ἀνδρὶ αὐτῆς μετ᾿ αὐτῆς, καὶ ἔφαγον. And - to – man – of hers – with – her – she supplied And to her man with her she supplied And to her man with her she gave
μετ᾿ - G3326 – μετά – meta - A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment;
The Greek (LXX) does not support Ellen White Scripture does not support Ellen White --------------------
I put the LXX and the Bible Hub Hebrew Interlinear over two English versions to test this verse in details for readers.
First thing I notice is sometimes the prefix in front of "tree" can mean "the tree" and in the same verse "a tree", sounds very inconsistent Hebrew translating to me.
Learn to translate (google) The definite article is used before singular and plural nouns when the noun is specific or particular. The signals that the noun is definite, that it refers to a particular member of a group. For example: "The dog that bit me ran away." Here, we're talking about a specific dog, the dog that bit me.
Dave – The dog that bit me ran away." Here, we're talking about a specific dog, the dog that bit me A dog that bit me ran away." Here, we're talking about THE specific dog, the dog that bit me
The definite article – can be translated as - The – A – AN – IT’s – They – and Them – rarely as He or Her or IT (poetry)
Second the "tree" is not translated by the LXX into Greek (only first occurrence is) Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise,
Gen 3:6 καὶ εἶδεν ἡ γυνὴ ὅτι καλὸν τὸ ξύλον εἰς βρῶσιν καὶ ὅτι ἀρεστὸν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἰδεῖν καὶ ὡραῖόν ἐστιν τοῦ κατανοῆσαι
ξύλον – is the word for tree – used only once – Correct The second reference to TREE = τοῦ - a definite article - singular
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and IT (neuter) to be desired to make one wise,
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and THE (neuter) to be desired to make one wise,
Gen 3:6 - when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, - that it was pleasant to the eyes, - tree to be desired to make one wise,
How do we know the IT belongs to the tree and not the food τοῦ - a definite article – masculine or neuter (he, it) – impossible as female (she) - singular TREE = τὸ ξύλον = singular neuter Food (eating) = βρῶσιν = female
Third the Greek does not translate the word "also" but uses the same Greek word "kai" meaning "and" but for some reason has a different meaning here as "also". Weird? Learn to translate καὶ - does not mean literal AND or even literal Also καὶ - is a break in the thought As I write – I use the “-“ as a break in thoughts – a separator = καὶ καὶ = a comma / καὶ = a period / καὶ = a breathing pause As I wrote this I use “/” as a separator = καὶ
καὶ - Paul is famous – καὶ - Corinthians - καὶ - is one long run on sentence - καὶ - the translator never knows where to stop - καὶ - or start
I am not sure why Greek has the "autos" , perhaps helps to know the verb as "she or her"? "autos" – is my favorite Greek word – it can mean almost anything – he, she, it,
Luke 16 Lazarus and the Rich man – both he – both "autos" – then the text talks about ‘καὶ αὐτοῦ’ + ‘καὶ αὐτοs’ + ‘καὶ αὐτοn’ + ‘καὶ αὐτοi’ – His - and his – of him – by him – and to him – because of him – which him is him depends on context
Dave make comment of the prefix in Hebrew, the Greek word "meta", meaning "with".
G3326 – μετά – meta - A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment; “amid” (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive case association, or accusative case succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between G575 or G1537 and G1519 or G4314; less intimate than G1722, and less close than G4862): - after (-ward),X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-) on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-) to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.
Robert method Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days—till the full end of the age.'
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly (meta) unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Mat 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
Mat 14:7 so much that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she might ask.
Mat 17:1 After six days, Yeshua takes with Him Peter and Jacob and John his brother, and brings them up a high mountain by themselves.
Joh 3:2 He came to Yeshua at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You, a teacher, have come from God. For no one can perform these signs which You do unless God is with Him!”
Joh 3:25 there arose then a question from the disciples of John with some Jews about purifying,
Question: Was Adam the whole time with His wife, and therefore next to her? Answer: No God is not with us all the time? With an oath – is not a continuous thing? - Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. - why do you doubt this? I am with you all the days – why do you doubt this?
There are some simple Hebrew cultural rules that tell us Adam was NOT next to his wife the whole time. There are some simple Hebrew cultural rules that tell us – this is not about salvation – the Right Hand There are some simple Hebrew cultural rules that tell us – this is about judgment – the Left Hand
Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one(human being – Eve) and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all (human beings) because all sinned. - this is not about salvation – the Right Hand - this is about judgment – the Left Hand Hebrew cultural rules
Consider the word "ruwach" which has feminine grammar as it's case. Not really a reference to gender female beings, however we will overlook this bias for now. Hebrew – it is a Feminine word – grammar Greek – spirit is a Feminine word – grammar Only in Roman Latin is spiritus, spiritus = gender: masculine
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2022 16:38:50 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D" I have answered this question for you several times – it is the entire point of Christianity You just do not want to hear it – or believe it - because the answer is a spiritual answer and you refuse the spirit
Everyone dies - all men die R" This is not an answer, please try again. You have assumed by saying this that GOD cannot overpower biological entities, that the biological comes with inherent entropy and thus wears out becoming corrupted and thus fails to meet it's original perfection and dies. Nothing could be further from Bible truth. God is an authority of living, not dying. Death is defined in Scripture as the ultimate separation from GOD. Death is not the cessation of biological chemical reactions. If the DNA was designed to replicate itself perfectly, and the chemicals within the cell experience not dangerous radiation rays, and all the nutrients are available in their perfect isotopes, than nothing would ever wear out nothing would ever become dysfunctional. The problem with your view of God, is that God cannot create things functionally, that God creates both functional and dysfunctional things in His Creation. This is a bogus idea, a myth and pure nonsense on your part. They say getting a person to view God as a flawed creative God is the first and greatest stumbling block to becoming a Gnostic Christian, and they are right. In my view, this stand completely destroys the almighty nature of GOD and His abilities to functionally create. So Death is not a part of God's creative functions. Perfection is and not a single trace of RA anywhere in His creative abilities. So how come Earth was found void, and darkness ? Because it you study the Hebrew word "choshek" you find this word relates to a free will being choosing to sin, hence earth was a prison house for sinners placed there. Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: This verse plainly tells you that if Adam and Eve was allowed to continue to eat from the tree of life, they would have lived forever, without dying, but able to also sin against God. Therefore you are wrong. Death is not a natural consequence of biological functions. If humans had access to the tree of life, by eating of its fruit, we would live forever, even as sinners. But GOD forbade this right, because we violated our free will, by choosing to miss God's powers, and thus missing God's powers we must experience, hence the term "dying die". Why we didn't die immediately is because God is gracious and kind, so we have a probationary time to choose salvation, which is really the right to accessing the tree of life. I remember Dave saying the tree of good and evil was the only tree in the middle of the garden. You didn't see the big deal of the tree of life. In fact there are TWO trees in the middle of the garden. Why TWO fruit trees in the middle? Because one tree was a simile of GOD and the other tree was a simile of NOT GOD, in other words the tree was a choice, by eating it you became a sinner, choosing NOT GOD. Question did an other free will beings also choose to eat of this tree, and hence now experience function and dysfunction? So if these beings are alive, they have some function, and if they live on a formless world filled with darkness they also experience dysfunction. But Dave ignores this idea. Notice in my reply, I write lots and use Bible verses, but Dave what did you write to my question, why did Jesus have to shed His life? "D Everyone dies - all men die
Brevity again. No proof, not a single Bible text to back up your claim. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin-offering is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV) It says here the wages of sin-offering is death. The Hebrew word here would have been chataah. NOT chata. In other words people who eat of the tree of life daily, but also sin daily, are still alive yes, but have a problem. They have a record of missing God's commands and rules. This is why GOD has rules concerning His love. Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.What is Egypt, a house prison house. God brings us out. Ps 105:23 Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.Egypt is a land founded by Ham, the dark son of Noah. Ps 105:28 He sent darkness, and made it dark; Ps 105:38 Egypt was glad when they departed: Ps 105:44 And gave them the lands of the heathen: Ps 105:45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws.R" The ultimate goal of all the straight to to guard his love promises and live by them using faith. I get the impression over the years from Bible study that every day we live under the love promises of faith, and this is our free will of doing. Without God, ye can do nothing, is a verse that agrees with this idea. Isa 30:2 That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!
R" Instead people trust in their own words of doing, the shadow of Egypt, the World, as Dave says. 3 Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.
R" But this world is just confusion, the Hebrew word babel, a simile of Babylon. Isa 31:3 Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit.R" Notice this world offers only men, not divine spirit as God is. Eze 19:1 ¶ Moreover take thou up a lamentation for the princes of Israel, Eze 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.R: " What is interesting and sad here is the mention of SHAD, the Hebrew word also used for SHED, the Greek word is Dave's archons, these are fallen angels providing milk to those who come to drink. Their SHAD is only a world of Egypt, filled with dark things. (by the way SHAD and Shedim have the same spellings? De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils,, the word in Hebrew here is SHAD.) Ho 8:13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.You ignore the only verse in the judgements that deal with the death of Jesus: You ignore a mischief maker doing mischief. The penalty for mischief is life for life, very severe penalty indeed. Here is why you must die. The law of God says so, not because of natural biological entropy as you claim. Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, So this shadow of darkness, termed Egypt was Earth, and had sinning angels on earth claiming to be like the Most High God. And the chief sinning angel came to Eve to cause mischief, because through her was the mother of living for humans. She was a simile of functions that the HS has who is the ultimate medium for the breath of life, that is provided by the Father in heaven. The mischief maker did mischief and this is why the death penalty exists in the laws of GOD. -------------------- D" The truth of Jesus Christ is that He did not stay dead – Life Lives – you refuse the idea Christ pour out His spirit and it returned to the heavens - Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Jesus biological body did not decay, so exactly what died in your view Dave? The biological body did not die, the spirit you claims always lives, so exactly what are you claiming here? And when Jesus rose He rose in the same biological body that never saw decay. And yet Jesus died? Does your view make any sense? Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death:Most of these English words are correct over their Hebrew words. Jesus did make his soul an offering for sin. Jesus really poured out his soul unto death. But death is not the cessation of biological functions, as Muslims claim, how can god die? Death is the separation of GOD within the elohiym family powers. Ps 22: My Provider El, my Responder El, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from Yashuh, and from the words of my roaring? Death is defined as the separation of matter from GOD's powers of living. The SON was left alone, truly experience hell, where no powers of God exist. Ps 22:30 A seed shall serve him;How such a simile we overlook. The death of a seed makes many seeds. Ps 2:12 Kiss the Son/SEED,Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. Shalom Amen. ----------------- RP" Why couldn't the Father just forgive the sinning for sins, as a part of his grace or kindness?D" He does – GRACE = unrequited love – even tho we do not love God – He still loves usR" You are not even loyal to your own theory are you? You claim the Father died on the Cross and the Father expression returned unto Himself, because the Father loves us. How can one uncaused cause demonstrate love. Dave's answer is easy, by making three expressions of Himself. OK so why didn't God create Adam and Steve than? Because the same personalities of love and loving is boring. Look at the Hebrew for love, comes in two personalities of loving, the maleness ahab kind and the femaleness ahabuh kind. Bingo. D" God made a law – man broke it R" you admit man broke a law of God.... great. Which law did the serpent break? Oh you claim the serpent is straight, never sinned speaking to Eve. What a bogus idea. The serpent negated God's words directly, you shall NOT dying die. D "God is fair R" Hang on, how is God fair? Have you not looked at the LAW and the law's demands? Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, If you do any mischief, you must cease to exist. How is that fair? The penalty for adultery was immediate death. Same a for other laws of GOD. The only reason GOD was fair on humans is because they were deceived by the sinning angels. ------------------ D"a fter the fall of man, when a plan was devised - vrs – before the foundation of the worldR" OK so it's about the term " when a plan was devised" ? The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race. It then existed in the purpose and by the promise of God; and through faith, men could become its subjects. Yet it was not actually established until the death of Christ. Even after entering upon His earthly mission, the Saviour, wearied with the stubbornness and ingratitude of men, might have drawn back from the sacrifice of Calvary. In Gethsemane the cup of woe trembled in His hand. He might even then have wiped the blood-sweat men. But when the Saviour yielded up His life, and with His expiring breath cried out, “It is finished,” then the fulfillment of the plan of redemption was assured. The promise of salvation made to the sinful pair in Eden was ratified. R" I get the impression here the plan devised refers to the death of Jesus and the salvation through faith in the words of the Father, was not established until the death of Jesus. The law says Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, But the plan for doing this law, was planned out carefully through the 4000 of years of sin, until Jesus died. D" Correct – this passage is about how to treat your slavesR" Maybe, but other verses along do not refer to slaves... so why the twist Dave? Ex 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. Where is a slave here? Ex 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. If you can't sell a man, how can you have slaves? The penalty was death. ------------------- R" The rest of your answers do not require my replies. ------------------------ D" Greek – spirit is a Feminine word – grammarI quote" There are biblical translations where the pronoun used for the Holy Spirit is masculine, in contrast to the gender of the noun used for spirit in Hebrew and Aramaic. In Aramaic also, the language generally considered to have been spoken by Jesus, the word is feminine. However, in Greek the word ( pneuma) is neuter. Interesting Dave. Very interesting indeed. Joh 15:26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: Why than doesn't it say Joh 15:26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, she shall testify of me: as the Pisitta Bible does? I suspect the Pneumia is a medium for the Father, hence the "The Father will testify of Jesus" I welcome your thoughts Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2022 17:13:20 GMT -5
Sorry Dave, I lost the profile link to Incremental Creation post, please provide is again, all my comments go lost. Stupid tab/windows mode.
I discovered a Hebrew word for murder harag.
Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Notice God will kill the serpent, not wound him, but end his living days. Why? Because of his sinning, the only reason why God kills anything that is living on probation.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 13, 2022 23:33:14 GMT -5
R “Why would GOD plan for the shedding of blood for sinning? Can Dave answer this question? Can anybody on the Internet answer this question? D "I have answered this question for you several times – it is the entire point of Christianity You just do not want to hear it – or believe it - because the answer is a spiritual answer and you refuse the spirit D “Everyone dies - all men die R" This is not an answer, please try again.OK – I will quote my complete answer to youEveryone dies - all men die – Jesus was 100% man – Son of Man - Proof Jesus was just like you and me – tempted and tested to the fullest – When we stand judgment – we have no excuse – no one had it harder than Jesus – to prove that Jesus was truly one of us - 100% biology and all biology passes away in the end The truth of Jesus Christ is that He did not stay dead – Life Lives – you refuse the ideaChrist pour out His spirit and it returned to the heavens - where he went and continued to serve the Lord by preaching to the Lost of the Days of Noah - you refuse the idea You have assumed by saying this that GOD cannot overpower biological entities,What a bunch of nonsense – you deny the spirit so all you talk about is biology The message of scripture is the salvation of the soul and communion with the Spirit in spirit – you deny itthat the biological comes with inherent entropy and thus wears out becoming corrupted and thus fails to meet it's original perfection and dies. Nothing could be further from Bible truth.So you deny scriptureMat 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. 1Jn 2:17 The world is passing away along with its desire, but the one who does the will of God abides forever. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that day the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements will melt and disintegrate, and the earth and everything done on it shall be exposed. 1Co 13:10 but when that which is perfect has come, then that which is partial will pass away. Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay. Flesh and blood decay – all this worth – this earth will all pass away – it is temporary – it is an illusionthat the biological comes with inherent entropy and thus wears out becoming corrupted and thus fails to meet it's original perfection and dies. – Correct = EntropyGod is an authority of living, not dying. Absolutely agree – Life Lives – you absolutely deny itDeath is defined in Scripture as the ultimate separation from GOD. Death is not the cessation of biological chemical reactions. Your word game – If I shoot you – you die – if you hit a bunny with your car – it dies The problem with your view of God, is that God cannot create things functionally,Incorrect – I accept scripture as written and fully believe in the Promise of the New Heaven and New Earth - this aint itGod creates both functional and dysfunctional things in His Creation. This is a bogus idea, a myth and pure nonsense on your part.Look around – this is what you have – this is God’s creation – no one else’sIsa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things. Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him. Pro 16:4 Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—even the wicked for a day of disaster. Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: So Death is not a part of God's creative functions. Perfection is and not a single trace of RA anywhere in His creative abilities.God created it all – exactly as he desired – and it was tovSo how come Earth was found void, and darkness ? 1- Moses wrote this so that 20th Century scientific cosmology could be validated – Ever hear of the nebular Theory by a preacher named Immanuel Kant 17542- Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon,Because it you study the Hebrew word "choshek" you find this word relates to a free will being choosing to sin, hence earth was a prison house for sinners placed there. Sorry Robert – Entropy has no free will – it always wind down / wears down – never builds upWhat you said here is very much ancient Gnostic and JWJW teach – earth is heaven and hell – enjoy it or not Ancient Gnostics taught that – physical creation = the corruption because it will indeed all pass away While heavens – the invisible – are not physical = incorruptibility and eternal NHL Gnostic – Gnostic Christians = the Beast was just the first sentient that is the corruption ----------------- Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: This verse plainly tells you that if Adam and Eve was allowed to continue to eat from the tree of life, they would have lived forever, without dying, but able to also sin against God. Therefore you are wrong. Death is not a natural consequence of biological functions. If humans had access to the tree of life, by eating of its fruit, we would live forever, even as sinners. But GOD forbade this right, because we violated our free will, by choosing to miss God's powers, and thus missing God's powers we must experience, hence the term "dying die".If they don’t eat the antidote – they die But without the antidote – dying is a nature part of lifeWhy we didn't die immediately is because God is gracious and kind, so we have a probationary time to choose salvation, (REPENT)If humans had access to the tree of life, by eating of its fruit, we would live forever, even as sinners.You post these ideas – but if I post then – you say - Your wrongWhy couldn't the Father just forgive the sinning for sins, as a part of his grace or kindness?Because God is fair – God did forgive Eve – after a life of Jer 1:5 and Gen 3:15 God made a law – man broke it – if God let Eve go without punishment Then what about Hitler – Stalin – Jack the Ripper – serial killers God is fair – Eve had to repent – to understand the depth of her error Hitler, Stalin, Jack the Ripper all had / have an equal opportunity to repent ----------- I remember Dave saying the tree of good and evil was the only tree in the middle of the garden. STOP misrepresenting me Mr. Honest Christian There was only ONE TREE WITH A COMMANDMENT ABOUT IT There was ONLY ONE TREE THAT MATTERED By choosing that tree – the Tree of Life was withheld – correctThe tree of Life was withheld because = If humans had access to the tree of life, by eating of its fruit, we would live forever, even as sinners.If they don’t eat the antidote – they die But without the antidote – dying is a nature part of lifeYou didn't see the big deal of the tree of life. It proves that = without the antidote – dying is a nature part of life----------------------------------- Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin-offering is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. It says here the wages of sin-offering is death. The Hebrew word here would have been chataah. NOT chata.G266 - ἁμαρτία – hamartia - From G264; sin (properly abstract): - offence, sin (-ful). G266 - Thayer Definition: 1) equivalent to 264 1a) to be without a share in 1b) to miss the mark 1c) to err, be mistaken 1d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour,to do or go wrong 1e) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin 2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act 3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many The Hebrew word here would have been – non-existent – you are inventing scripture Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. What is Egypt, a house prison house. God brings us out.YES – Egypt is a metaphor for the WORLDRom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect. Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have shalom. In the world you will have trouble, but take heart! I have overcome the world!” 1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1Jn 2:16 For everything in the world—the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, and the boasting of life—is not from the Father but from the world. 1Jn 2:17 The world is passing away along with its desire, but the one who does the will of God abides forever. --------------------- Ps 105:45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. R" The ultimate goal of all the straight is to guard his love promises and live by them using faith. Spoken as a servant of the LawGal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. No one can follow the ahl/OT Law – IMPOSSIBLE – none righteous – no not one BUT – The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Promise of the SPIRITThe Gospels of Jesus Christ gives us a more comprehensive lawMat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment. Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. How do I love God with all my heart, mind, and soul = Jer 1:5 24/7 How do I love my fellow man = Jer 1:5 24/7Mat 7:12 So in all things, do to others what you would want them to do to you—for this is the Torah and the Prophets. what you would want them to do to you – witness Jer 1:5 to me – help save my eternal life---------------- Isa 31:3 Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. R" Notice this world offers only men, not divine spirit as God is. You are trying really hard to deny the spiritual Notice this world offers only men (with men spirits) , not divine spirit as God is-------------------- RP" Why couldn't the Father just forgive the sinning for sins, as a part of his grace or kindness? D" He does – GRACE = unrequited love – even tho we do not love God – He still loves us R" You are not even loyal to your own theory are you? You claim the Father died on the Cross and the Father expression returned unto Himself, because the Father loves us. How can one uncaused cause demonstrate love. Dave's answer is easy, by making three expressions of Himself. OK so why didn't God create Adam and Steve than? Because the same personalities of love and loving is boring. Look at the Hebrew for love, comes in two personalities of loving, the maleness ahab kind and the femaleness ahabuh kind. Bingo. What a bunch of Robert babble -------------------- D"Greek – spirit is a Feminine word – grammar I was wrong – it is a neuter word She is an IT------------ Sorry Dave, I lost the profile link to Incremental Creation post, please provide is again, all my comments go lost. Stupid tab/windows mode.Answer hereIncremental Creation [/quote] You have pretened to play this game before – you still do not understand how to navigate this forum?Try clicking on the quotation fate stamp = “ yesterday at 5:41pm” Dave said: Or you could click on “ Dave” and check Dave’s recent postOr you could just click on “all” recent postOr you could just look at the main menuEllen White vrs Incremental Creationby Dave yesterday at 6:04pm
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2022 15:51:38 GMT -5
D" The authors of the agl/NT were the very disciples of Jesus Christ - they walked and talk with Jesus Christ in public and in private – both before and after His Resurrection
Yet you mock their writings
R" Prove to me their writings are genuine, or inspired or match the Moses torah account. D" Christ pour out His spirit and it returned to the heavens - where he went and continued to serve the Lord by preaching to the Lost of the Days of Noah - you refuse the idea
R' assuming Jesus did do as you claim, how is pouring out your spirit, dying? Not even close. D" The message of scripture is the salvation of the soul and communion with the Spirit in spirit – you deny it
R " In 53 says Jesus poured out his soul unto death.... so where does this fit into your view? Can't see it? D" 1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.
Flesh and blood decay – all this worth – this earth will all pass away – it is temporary – it is an illusion
R: meaning this current flesh and blood with its spoiled DNA and lost inspired information. You assume perfect flesh and blood with 100% inspired DNA information is still with entropy and RA failings? What kind of body (flesh and blood) was Jesus raised with than THomas put his fingers into? duh real flesh and blood, DNA without corruption, that it. RP" that the biological comes with inherent entropy and thus wears out becoming corrupted and thus fails to meet it's original perfection and dies.
D"– Correct = Entropy
R" WRONG. GOD raised Jesus with a body, same as old body except the DNA was fully restored and perfect, yet bore the marks and wounds as memories of past sacrifice. The only allowed RA in heaven for eternity. Rp" Death is defined in Scripture as the ultimate separation from GOD. Death is not the cessation of biological chemical reactions.
D" Your word game – If I shoot you – you die – if you hit a bunny with your car – it dies
R" Hmm? One can do harag, a Hebrew word meaning kill, but this is not muwth, a Hebrew word meaning death. The first death is termed a sleep in God, including the bunny, and the second death is very different, you are exclude from GOD and thus cease to exist. Only God is living, not chemistry, not even the motions of atoms, all things depend upon God. You agreed to this at a subatomic level, so stop harassing my word meanings. RP" The problem with your view of God, is that God cannot create things functionally,
D" Incorrect – I accept scripture as written and fully believe in the Promise of the New Heaven and New Earth - this aint it
R" OK so why did our perfect world also include some RA? Obviously because some angels had sinned before we humans sinned, duh. Suddenly all the pieces fall into place. Stop ignoring Ezek 28. God only creates and uses RA when SIN is around. Normally GOD is above RA and all things are functional. You have this strange notion perfect information coming from God with matter also coming from God is somehow dysfunctional with entropy? Please explain why God cannot deal with his own creative abilities? This is all biology is, information (DNA) combined with matter. D" Look around – this is what you have – this is God’s creation – no one else’s
Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.
R" Yes but only to deal with the SIN problem. D" God created it all – exactly as he desired – and it was tov
R" you think God created death? You are way off track. God is living, always living. Even when you pick a flower in heaven it will never die. The flow of living remains even when severed from the rose bush. That is my kind of God. That is biology that does not need air, or water or food. I gave you an example of Mrs white in vision for 3 hours, not breathing. Moses on the mountain 40 days, no eating or no drinking, biology that requires no inputs. God can do all things. Biology walked through walls. Let God amaze you. Stop making God into something less. D" JW teach – earth is heaven and hell – enjoy it or not
R" I support a heaven in heaven and a hell on earth beyond our demensions of human. unlike JW. D" If they don’t eat the antidote – they die
But without the antidote – dying is a nature part of life
R" Hmm? so you agree one could live forever as a sinning sinner, eg of this are the fallen angels who still sin to this day on earth, some in prison some out of prison on earth. Dying is not a part of nature, dying is the consequence of God's curse upon creation because Adam sinned.D" You post these ideas – but if I post then – you say - Your wrong
R" How many have I placed over the years next to statements I like from you? How many smilee faces have you posted about me? How many times have mocked your view? How many times have you mocked my view? I do not rubbish all the Gnostic writings you shared, some are nice. Deception is always truth with falsehood. I prefer to stick to the Moses torah all the time, this is always truth without falsehood. D" By choosing that tree – the Tree of Life was withheld – correct
R" nice SO you agree there were two main trees in the garden, one with a command not to eat of it. What do these two trees represent? D" It proves that = without the antidote – dying is a nature part of life
R" I would not call eating GOD an antidote. Whoever eats me has real food indeed God says, the angels also eat manna. D" The Hebrew word here would have been – non-existent – you are inventing scripture
R" Dave there are two hebrew words for sin chet and chata chataah Also others but this is OK for now. What is the difference between chata and chataah? Ex 32:30 ¶ And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. THis verse makes no sense but uses both Hebrew words. Jeff Benner Ex 32:30 ¶ And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have erred a great error: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your error. OK, but lacks Ex 32:30 ¶ And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin-offering: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin-offering. Describes why the sin/sin-offering action is required. See Lev. verses D" YES – Egypt is a metaphor for the WORLD
R" correct D" No one can follow the ahl/OT Law – IMPOSSIBLE – none righteous – no not one
R" Well Jesus did. Adam did for 33 years. (used direct obedience system) Enoch did for 300+ years after repenting for early sins. (used a faith system though) D" You are trying really hard to deny the spiritual
R" The only spirit here is HS. D"D" Greek – spirit is a Feminine word – grammar
I was wrong – it is a neuter word She is an IT
R" stop being silly, I admire you for saying the pneumia is feminine. D" Try clicking on the quotation fate stamp = “yesterday at 5:41pm” Dave said:
Or you could click on “Dave” and check Dave’s recent post
R" OK sorry Shalom to you, enjoy your day Stay nice to your family
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Post by Dave on Mar 15, 2022 11:17:41 GMT -5
D"The authors of the agl/NT were the very disciples of Jesus Christ - they walked and talk with Jesus Christ in public and in private – both before and after His Resurrection R" Prove to me their writings are genuine, or inspired or match the Moses torah account.I ask you AYou respond with B and will only discuss BD"Christ pour out His spirit and it returned to the heavens - where he went and continued to serve the Lord by preaching to the Lost of the Days of Noah - you refuse the idea R' assuming Jesus did do as you claim, how is pouring out your spirit, dying? Not even close.Man = (biology / flesh) + (spirit)Jesus = biology = Son of man – BIOLOGY STOPS FUNCTIONING = mortal death – body to the grave = decay = corruptibility = temporary = illusion = will all passawy Christ = The Spirit of God = The Holy Spirit = God = Trinity Jesus Christ = God incarnate in a body of biology just like me and you Jesus Christ = (Jesus – Son of man – biology/flesh) + (God = Christ = Son of God on earth) Jesus Christ = (Son of Man) + (Son of God)Jesus Christ = (100% man – just like you and me) + (God – incarnate – on earth communing with man as a man) D"Christ pour out His spirit and it returned to the heavens - where he went and continued to serve the Lord by preaching to the Lost of the Days of Noah - you refuse the idea R' assuming Jesus did do as you claim, how is pouring out your spirit, dying? Not even close. Jesus – Son of Man = biology / flesh was dead – no heart beat – no breathing – no thinking – buried in the tomb – just as dead as my Mother and Father – or my grandparents – or as MosesYES – Jesus dies upon the cross – suffered more than you and I could bear Christ – Son of God = SPITIT = God = Holy Spirit – and when the bodied died – the Spirit returned to heavenEcc 12:7 Then the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Ecc 12:8 “Evanescent vapors,” says Kohelet. All is futility. Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it. Ecc 12:8 Vanity of vanities, said the preacher, the whole is vanity. Ecc 12:7 (KJV) … and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Pour out – releases – let go – and returns to heaven – as in LIFE LIVESD"The message of scripture is the salvation of the soul and communion with the Spirit in spirit – you deny it R " In 53 says Jesus poured out his soul unto death.... so where does this fit into your view? Can't see it?Because you are too busy denying scriptureGen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. God → Invisible – Visible God → Ethereal – Corporeal God → Spiritual – Physical E → mc2 Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. God → male and female Man → male and female All macho men have a feminine side = all girly girls have an ‘attitude’ – I mean male side Just as God has - a male side (Christ) –and- a female side (Holy Spirit) Something from God are from The male Right hand Somethings from God are from the Left hand 1D = 2D+3D Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Father = Son and Holy Spirit ONE GOD = 2 expressions – one male – and one female (even if spirit is a neuter word) Someone sent me a video that I will post as a thread here soonIt approaches your question this way – The presenter comes for the perspective of ‘paradigm’ In this image A = body / B = Soul / C= SpiritA = Body – biology / flesh / dust / world / temporary / an illusion C = Spirit – NOT BIOLOGY / FLESH – but ethereal / spirit – invisible / incorruptible / real / eternal B = Soul – the spirit with the body (biology / flesh) + (spirit) All biology come with the commandment from God – be fruitful and multiply = self-preservation = (yester ra) AND – spirit comes with the memory of heaven and God + the commission of Jer 1:54 SOUL is in the middle and expose to both invisible spirit and visible world The more we choose WORLD – soon all we can see = WORLD The more we choose spirit – the more we recognize the spiritual All you see is biology and completely deny the spiritualWhich is why I doubt your sincerity here - you only argue against Christianity D"1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay. Flesh and blood decay – all this world – this earth will all pass away – it is temporary – it is an illusion Ecc 12:7 (KJV) … and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Pour out – releases – let go – and returns to heaven – as in LIFE LIVES What kind of body (flesh and blood) was Jesus raised with than Thomas put his fingers into? DuhA body that could appear and disappear – and walk through walls – and ascend upwards into the heavens – my best answer is scripture1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. What kind of body (flesh and blood) was Jesus raised with than Thomas put his fingers into? Duh real flesh and blood, DNA without corruption, that it.D"– Correct = Entropy - biological comes with inherent entropy and thus wears out becoming corrupted and thus fails to meet it's original perfection and dies.R" WRONG. GOD raised Jesus with a body, same as old body except the DNA was fully restored and perfect, yet bore the marks and wounds as memories of past sacrifice. The only allowed RA in heaven for eternity.Why are you so comfortable misrepresenting scripture – the word of GodCurious – Christian My best answer is still scripture1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. ------------- RP" The problem with your view of God, is that God cannot create things functionally,D" Incorrect – I accept scripture as written and fully believe in the Promise of the New Heaven and New Earth - this aint itR" OK so why did our perfect world also include some RA? BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY HOW GOD MADE IT – there is no other creator – no one ever altered God’s creation - no one ever changed God’s Plan against God’s WillJoh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil D"God created it all – exactly as he desired – and it was tov D"Look around – this is what you have – this is God’s creation – no one else’s --------------------- R" Yes but only to deal with the SIN problem. Stop ignoring Ezek 28.AH – the sum total of your religion – and the only two words of scripture you believe -------------------- D"If they don’t eat the antidote – they die But without the antidote – dying is a nature part of life R" Hmm? so you agree one could live forever as a sinning sinnerCorrect – if the Tree of Life was not withheld – sinner could eat of the antidote for mortal deathR Dying is not a part of nature, dying is the consequence of God's curse upon creation because Adam sinned.OK Mr flip flopper – you preach that Adam and eat ate from the Tree of life for 33 years (although you have never presented any scripture) Question - Why did they have to? - Answer – you even teach that mortal death is inherent to biology----------------- D"The Hebrew word here would have been – non-existent – you are inventing scripture R" Dave there are two hebrew words for sin chet and chata - chataah Also others but this is OK for now. What is the difference between chata and chataah? Ex 32:30 ¶ And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. This verse makes no sense WHY NOT?The people transgressed – Moses went before God as an intercessor to ask / beg / request forgivness What is exactly so confusing for you?This verse makes no sense but uses both Hebrew words.
Ex 32:30 ¶ And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin-offering: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin-offering. D"The Hebrew word here would have been – non-existent – you are inventing scripture I cannot tell you enough how much I disagree with your teaching Why do you feel so comfortable corrupting scripture – God word - Christianjewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13764-sin-offeringSIN-OFFERING. By: Joseph Jacobs, George A. Barton, M. Seligsohn, Emil G. Hirsch The sin-offering proper is a sacrifice consisting of either a beast or a fowl and offered on the altar to atone for a sin committed unwittingly. The rules concerning the sin-offering are as follows: blah blah blah The people did NOT ‘make a great sacrifice for sin’ – they sinned---------------- D"No one can follow the ahl/OT Law – IMPOSSIBLE – none righteous – no not one R" Well Jesus did. Adam did for 33 years. (used direct obedience system) Enoch did for 300+ years after repenting for early sins. (used a faith system though)Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2022 16:05:27 GMT -5
D" Jesus = biology = Son of man – BIOLOGY STOPS FUNCTIONING = mortal death – body to the grave = decay = corruptibility = temporary = illusion = will all passawyR" DO you ignore scripture on purpose? Jesus body did not decay, even though it was lying there for 3 days and 3 nights. Scripture says so. But you ignore this scripture? Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Ac 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Ac 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. D" BIOLOGY STOPS FUNCTIONING = mortal death R" Dave finger nails keep growing for months, so does hair. Sure most cells cease function. How do you account for not a single cell in Jesus body fell into corruption upon the muwth process of sleep? One has to re-define muwth as something else, has nothing to do with cessation of biochemistry. But you ignore this idea. Muwth, the first process of muwth, has to be a sleep in GOD, when your conscious powers end. The second muwth is different, where God leaves you separated from HIM for ever, and you cease to exist. D" Jesus Christ = God incarnate in a body of biology just like me and youR" Nice SO what part of Jesus died in the grave? Isa 53:12 ...he hath poured out his soul unto death: Has to be the nephesh, but you ignore this scripture too? The biology was not decaying and dying, no corruption, but the nephesh was poured out unto death. What causes the nephesh, or living energy, as I explain nephesh. Relationship causes nephesh. The relationship was broken, severed. The divine members of elohiym power was broken, not connected. That is what nephesh means, the relationship of the biology with the divine for man. And for Jesus nephesh was the relationship of the Father and Mother to the SON, this was broken. For example you have nails and wood, and fix them in correct relationship to make a box. Undo the relationship the nails are there and the wood is there, but where did the box go? Isa 53:12 ...he hath poured out his soul unto death: The relationship to the Father was broken. You have to ignore this idea because you do not have a family power of love. D "Christ – Son of God = SPITIT = God = Holy Spirit – and when the bodied died – the Spirit returned to heavenR" the body did not decay, so I suspect it did not "die" as you define your term. Neither do I suspect the "spirit returned to heaven", a term you also define differently. No wonder the torah says to avoid Gnostic views.
1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. John is writing against Gnostic views here, and you are presenting a weird view to me today. I suspect Jesus lay in the grave, as a complete person, the ruwach (HS) returned to the Father , yes, not the same thing you said. The nephesh was broken, yes, the body lay unspoiled, did not decay, the divinity of Christ lay there also , no change could never change anyway. Only the relationship changed. The angel was sent to the Father to awaken the divine up again, and the HS returned to the body, allowing the divine to rise in the same old body he lay down in. (minus the spoilt DNA etc) My view is very different to yours. You claim the spirit comes out of the body and spoke to others in prison, but this is an idiom for the prison of earth, and those trapped in the earth, in hell, asleep in the grave. D"Ecc 12:7 (KJV) … and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Pour out – releases – let go – and returns to heaven – as in LIFE LIVESR" The ruwach here is the HS, not your spirit, you play a word game here. RP" R " In 53 says Jesus poured out his soul unto death.... so where does this fit into your view? Can't see it?D" Because you are too busy denying scriptureR" What? you are denying Scripture? D" All macho men have a feminine side = all girly girls have an ‘attitude’ – I mean male sideR" correct. All macho men have a feminine femaleness love side = all girly girls have an ‘attitude’ – I mean male maleness-love side There are two personalities of love in Hebrew, ahab and ahabuh. Correct. D" Just as God has - a male side (Christ) –and- a female side (Holy Spirit)R" NO you are saying the Father is both, a male side (Christ) –and- a female side (Holy Spirit) You are denying something here, a family concept of love.Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; DO you ignore this verse/passage also, naming the Father, Son and HS in a family in heaven? D" In this image A = body / B = Soul / C= Spirit
A = Body – biology / flesh / dust / world / temporary / an illusion C = Spirit – NOT BIOLOGY / FLESH – but ethereal / spirit – invisible / incorruptible / real / eternal
B = Soul – the spirit with the body (biology / flesh) + (spirit)R" It seems OK A= matter/body B= relationship, the divine flows into the matter via a medium (HS) - termed nephesh/soul C= divine We are on same page? Or do you define C as a spirit function man can own? I would say NO. D" 1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.R" correct because this flesh we currently have is spoiling with propensities. However if we inherit flesh without DNA propensities, than that is perfection. RP" What kind of body (flesh and blood) was Jesus raised with than Thomas put his fingers into? DuhD" A body that could appear and disappear – and walk through walls – and ascend upwards into the heavens – my best answer is scriptureR" What? a biological body can walk through walls, Jesus did a biological body can stop breathing, Ellen White did for 3 hours a biological body can stop eating, Moses did for 40 years a biological body can move from one earth place to another, Philip did after baptising the enuch Why do you impose limits on what GOD can do with his own creation? Rp " R" OK so why did our perfect world also include some RA?D" BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY HOW GOD MADE IT – there is no other creator – no one ever altered God’s creation - no one ever changed God’s Plan against God’s WillR" Is that an answer? Re 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: SO our first creation got cursed, I wonder why? Re 22:5 And there shall be no night there; SO our first creation had night, I wonder why? And you answer is " BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY HOW GOD MADE IT " Is that an answer? Mummy why can't I touch the stove? Because Mummy says not to, that is why? But why? Because I say not too, isn't that enough for you? But Mummy.... Alright than, go ahead and touch the stove... The little boy experiences missing, feels pain and start crying. I pity your lack of insight Dave, God, a heavenly parent is dealing with a SIN problem. D" OK Mr flip flopper – you preach that Adam and eat ate from the Tree of life for 33 years (although you have never presented any scripture) Question - Why did they have to? - Answer – you even teach that mortal death is inherent to biologyR" What? I do not teach death of a part of living. Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Why do we still eat of the tree of life in heaven, when we are all sinless? Question - Why did they have to? - Answer – you even teach that mortal death is inherent to biologyNo Dave, you twist things. It's a memorial of relationship, a daily reminder of God providing. Why do we have to eat food in heaven, if all energy is never lost? Why do we have to breathe is God can hold our breaths in vision for 40 days or more? Its a memorial of relationship... Just something we do and enjoy to do, having fun with relationship. "healing of the nations" what does this mean? D" The people transgressed – Moses went before God as an intercessor to ask / beg / request forgivness What is exactly so confusing for you?R" Because there are two different Hebrew words for the same English word. D" The people did NOT ‘make a great sacrifice for sin’ – they sinnedR" Fair enough SO the people sinned a great chataah. What English word is this here Dave? D"Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justifiedR" correct, do you what this verse is saying? Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, (after you have already sinned) however you can be justified by the works of the law (if you are sinless). Like Adam was before He sinned and Jesus was, the whole time He lived on earth. Gal 2:16 ..., but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ... (yes for those who are sinners, we are straightened by Faith in jesus) Gal 2:16 ..., and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified, correct for any sinners obeying the LAW in their own powers, have pious nature that means nothing to GOD. Fight the good fight of amanuah. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 15, 2022 22:31:09 GMT -5
D"Jesus = biology = Son of man – BIOLOGY STOPS FUNCTIONING = mortal death – body to the grave = decay = corruptibility = temporary = illusion = will all passawy R" DO you ignore scripture on purpose?
Jesus body did not decay, even though it was lying there for 3 days and 3 nights. Scripture says so. 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. But you ignore this scripture?Absolutely agree with scripture – the biological body was changed and resurrected But you ignore this scripture?1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. But you ignore this scripture?Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. But you ignore this scripture?D"Jesus Christ = God incarnate in a body of biology just like me and you R" Nice SO what part of Jesus died in the grave? – biological bodyIsa 53:12 ...he hath poured out his soul unto death:YEP – the spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc12:7)But you ignore this scripture?D"Ecc 12:7 (KJV) … and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Pour out – releases – let go – and returns to heaven – as in LIFE LIVES R" The ruwach here is the HS, not your spirit, you play a word game here.A= matter/body B= relationship, the divine flows into the matter via a medium (HS) - termed nephesh/soul C= divineSo – you claim that every man and woman on earth is just God (google) What's the difference between pantheism and panentheism? In panentheism, the universal spirit is present everywhere, which at the same time "transcends" all things created. While pantheism asserts that "all is God", panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe. Which pagan view best describes you?Rp " R" OK so why did our perfect world also include some RA? D" BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY HOW GOD MADE IT – there is no other creator – no one ever altered God’s creation - no one ever changed God’s Plan against God’s Will R" Is that an answer?Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: All things were created by Him, and for Him:Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Everything was created for a purposeD"OK Mr flip flopper – you preach that Adam and eat ate from the Tree of life for 33 years (although you have never presented any scripture) Question - Why did they have to? - Answer – you even teach that mortal death is inherent to biology R" What? I do not teach death of a part of living.Question - Why did they have to? - Answer – you even teach that mortal death is inherent to biology No Dave, you twist things.Do you preach that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life daily – yes –or – noYou have made the statement many times If they did – why did they have to id moratl death is not a full part of nature?My question to you is – why is obviously flawed Ellen White more valuable to you than the authors of the agl/NTStill no answer - just more attackIs there any substance behind your words
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Post by Dillon on Mar 16, 2022 1:06:43 GMT -5
What about? Angels? Are they also just divine spirit? Doesn’t this make satan divine? Satan is just God? If all spirit, angels, demons, and satan are just God, why would God oppose himself?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2022 15:44:12 GMT -5
D" So – you claim that every man and woman on earth is just God
(google) What's the difference between pantheism and panentheism? In panentheism, the universal spirit is present everywhere, which at the same time "transcends" all things created. While pantheism asserts that "all is God", panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe. Which pagan view best describes you?R" What best describes your view? Where did your spark/ spirits that make you, you come from? Where does the living in you come from? I do not support pantheism or panentheism? Gen 2:7 and Gen 7:2 contain two Hebrew words, ruwach and nashamah. The ruwach is divine, the HS, who functions as a medium so the power of the Father imparts living into special matter called biology. For only GOD is living. The nashamah is our "spirit" who is us, the breathing character, that came alive during our partnership with God. Now explain your view. D" All things were created by Him, and for Him:
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Everything was created for a purposeR" Yes even for the wicked, because they sin, and sinning is not allowed in God's sight, nor is RA, so these things (sinning and the RA from sinning) has to be created by GOD so sinners observe their sinning consequences. You claim God will naturally and normally create RA in a sinless world, is bogus. D" Do you preach that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life daily – yes –or – no You have made the statement many times If they did – why did they have to die? mortal death is not a full part of nature?R" God could have created us without us doing anything, no breathing no eating no walking just sitting their like an amoeba, doing nothing much. God didn't do it this way. He made creatures to sing, to see colour, to eat food, and to do many actions. Man was to eat divine food from the divine tree every day. Does this food contain special things necessary for ongoing living? I don't know, maybe. Does not mean death is a part of the tree's food system. Death is the separation of God from man, the HS leaves us and we die. I see the eating of food as a test of our loyal loving response to a God who provides. You twist and stretch Scriptures, making them too complex, when simple faith is all that God requires. D" My question to you is – why is obviously flawed Ellen White more valuable to you than the authors of the agl/NT
Still no answer - just more attack Is there any substance behind your wordsR" What do you mean by flawed? How are her messages from God flawed? She wrote a prophecy that Satan will taint the air in the last days. I wish God had revealed more, but He didn't. I quote a prophecy" While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. “The earth mourneth and fadeth away,” “The haughty people ... do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.” Isaiah 24:4, 5.
Some will be tempted to receive these wonders as from God. The sick will be healed before us. Miracles will be performed in our sight. Are we prepared for the trial which awaits us when the lying wonders of Satan shall be more fully exhibited? Will not many be ensnared and taken? By departing from the plain precepts and commandments of God and giving heed to fables, the minds of many are preparing to receive these lying wonders. We must all now seek to arm ourselves for the contest in which we must soon engage. Faith in God's word, prayerfully studied and practically applied, will be our shield from Satan's power and will bring us off conquerors through the blood of Christ.—Testimonies for the Church 1:302 (1862). I see this deadly taint of the air as "chemicial trials" dropped out from planes, "barium, aluminium and coal residue, designed to fall onto the land and water tanks. And poison the earth and humans. Tell me something your so called Gnostic writings predict for the end times coming upon us? Notice she terms this a contest, that should make you smile --------------------------------------------------------------- DIllon poises a question" What about? Angels? Are they also just divine spirit? Doesn’t this make satan divine? Satan is just God? If all spirit, angels, demons, and satan are just God, why would God oppose himself?Dillon we know angels eat manna every day Ps 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. 25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full. That makes angels biological, not spirit beings. Hope this helps Shalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 17, 2022 4:48:30 GMT -5
You claim God will naturally and normally create RA in a sinless world, is bogus.YES – RA in a SINLESS world because they do not mean the same thing - word manBefore man was created in the garden – rocks melted – minerals formed – heat was transferred from one chunk of matter to the next – the earth without form and void cooled and coalesced into our planet we call earth – that grew and stretched to get to where it is today – so much ra (entropy) along the way And none of it has anything to do with sinI asked you question A D"Do you preach that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life daily – yes –or – no You have made the statement many times If they did – why did they have to die? mortal death is not a full part of nature? Your B answerR" God could have created us without us doing anything,D"My question to you is – why is obviously flawed Ellen White more valuable to you than the authors of the agl/NT Still no answer - just more attack R" What do you mean by flawed?This thread is here for you to defend her as a prophet of the Lord – when are you going to do that?How are her messages from God flawed?Coal after the flood Coal and oil getting together in the earth burring to cause earthquakes and volcanoes God made the plan of salvation after the fall of man Satan tempted Adam Eve did not pick the fruit – satan picked it and forced it upon her Jesus Christ is not God Satan has the power to change God’s plan against God’s Will Satan killed God on the cross There is no spirit – and no spiritual – biology and WORLD is the only reality And there are two gods locked in an eternal controversy Satan tempted Adam - answer at least this one(and that is only question #8 of 55 - so far so unimpressed) --------------------------------------------------------------- DIllon poises a question" What about? Angels? Are they also just divine spirit? Doesn’t this make satan divine? Satan is just God? If all spirit, angels, demons, and satan are just God, why would God oppose himself? Dillon: we know angels eat manna every day That makes angels biological, not spirit beings.Dave: So – you claim that every man and woman on earth is just God I do not support pantheism or panentheism?YES YOU DO – there is no such thing as an independent individual know as man Each and every man is just the HS – this is your teaching here MAN HAS NO SPIRIT – the only spirit inside man is the HSI had not thought of this before - does this mean that the angels are also not independent individuals - they are all just the HS also If the angels are not independent individuals - just the HS - how do you explain your satanGen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, God is not a man with a long white beard - God is Spirit and so is Manwww.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1298.cfmThere are those who reason that since humanity is made in the image of God, and that we have a body, then God must also have a body. This assumes that the image of God is physical. But the Bible teaches that God does not have a body. God Is Spirit The Scriptures teach that God is Spirit. Jesus said: "God is Spirit" (John 4:24). By nature, God is a Spirit-being. However a person defines spirit, the definition does not include flesh and bones. This can be seen in an encounter Jesus had with His disciples after His resurrection: Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have (Luke 24:39). Jesus clearly said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. God, therefore, being a spirit, does not have physical form. God Is Invisible A spirit is also invisible. Although God led Israel by means of a pillar of fire, He was never seen by the nation. Moses made this clear to the people. You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully (Deuteronomy 4:15). The Apostle Paul wrote. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen (1 Timothy 1:17). He Is Known As The Invisible God God is known as the invisible God. But He said, "You cannot see my face; for no man shall see me, and live" (Exodus 33:20). John wrote. No one has seen God at any time. The one and only God who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him (John 1:18). Paul testified. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20) To the Colossians he wrote. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (Colossians 1:15). Paul wrote to Timothy. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen (1 Timothy 1:17). To Timothy again, Paul wrote. Who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:16). He Is Not Subject To Limitations As spirit, God is not subject to the limitations of a body as are human beings. He does not have any body parts, neither does He have human passions. God is not composed of any material elements. Therefore He cannot be seen without our natural eyes or experienced by our natural senses. In the Book of Job the question is raised. Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty (Job 11:7). The answer is no. God's depths and limits are not discoverable. The Spirit Is Life Spirit is not so much an attribute of God as it is a mode of His existence. God acts and exists as a spirit. Jesus said. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life (John 6:63). Agree up to here – but to be consistent with Gnostic Christianity God Became A Human When Jesus (Christ) came to earth (as Jesus) two thousand years ago, He took upon Himself a human nature which included a body (Jesus – biology Son of Man). Though He will forever be in that body, His Divine nature is not material (Christ – not material – not physical = spiritual). His body is a human body, not a divine body (biology – Jesus – matter). Previously to His coming to earth, He did not possess a body (Hmmm? DUH Before coming to earth Christ had a FORM – not a body of flesh - vocabulary.
Christ in heaven has a FORM Angels in heaven have a FORM Evil Spirits have a FORM Satan has a FORM But those FORMS are not of this world – or of the dust of this world They are the stuff of heavenly things – spiritual things)It is not corporeal – it is EtherealNot of this physical world - but of the spiritual invisible reality The fact that God is a personal Spirit is difficult to comprehend. We wonder, "How can something be personal without being material?" While we cannot understand how this can be so, this is what the Scripture says concerning the nature of God. Consequently we accept it by faith. The understand comes by realizing – they are not of this world – they are of a different reality They are NOT 3D physical – they are not of this dimension Summary The Bible teaches that God is spirit. A spirit, by definition, is invisible. It does not have any physical form. God, therefore, has no physical form. How God can exist as a spirit without any sort of body is a divine mystery. Funny – people have no problem believing in Ghost or evil spirits But find it harder to accept God for who he isjustdisciple.com/god-physical-body/Does God have a physical body? The Bible tells us that God is spirit and has no body. Within the Trinity, both God the Father and God the Holy Spirit have no body. However, Jesus, the God the Son, does have a physical body, as He took on flesh to be both fully God and fully man. In the Old Testament, there are written accounts of God visibly manifesting Himself to man in physical form, which is meant to reveal who God is and point to the pre-incarnate Christ was has now come. archive.gci.org/articles/does-god-have-a-body/Some groups, such as the Mormons and some in what is called the “word of faith” movement, teach that God is a being who is composed of a physical, corporeal body – a body made of flesh and bone. This idea is not supported by the Bible. YES - Interesting - more Mormon teaching from Ellen White
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2022 3:55:20 GMT -5
D" YES – RA in a SINLESS world because they do not mean the same thing - word man Before man was created in the garden – rocks melted – minerals formed – heat was transferred from one chunk of matter to the next – the earth without form and void cooled and coalesced into our planet we call earth – that grew and stretched to get to where it is today – so much ra (entropy) along the way
And none of it has anything to do with sinR" THis is a theory of yours, you claim natural RA is sinless , nothing to do with sin, or a curse of God because of sin. You stick to your view, as it seems good for you, your faith is way bigger than mine to support such a silly idea. My understanding is GOD creates perfection all the time, no RA, which by the way means anything dysfunctional. D" the earth without form and void cooled and coalesced into our planet we call earth R" There may be a hint for this idea, the lake of Fire may be a magma earth burning up all things, before the renewed creation takes place... I say a hint, we can only conjecture at this point. ------------------------- D" Coal after the flood Coal and oil getting together in the earth burring to cause earthquakes and volcanoes God made the plan of salvation after the fall of man Satan tempted Adam Eve did not pick the fruit – satan picked it and forced it upon her Jesus Christ is not God Satan has the power to change God’s plan against God’s Will Satan killed God on the cross There is no spirit – and no spiritual – biology and WORLD is the only reality And there are two gods locked in an eternal controversy
Satan tempted Adam - answer at least this one (and that is only question #8 of 55 - so far so unimpressed)R" I have tried to answer some of these questions, but your view does not see evidence as I do, you have a world view different to my world view, and evidence will not change your world view. Only God can, if you listen to Him. You ask did Satan tempt Adam? Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Adam did sin, as it says here. Ro 5:14 ...., even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, Adam did a transgression... Ge 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Adam is fearful of God because of his sinning.... Question who told Adam he was naked? Ge 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. In this blame game, Adam ate the fruit because Eve ate the fruit. Question: did the serpent directly tempt Adam to eat? Not directly perhaps.... But Dave if you really wanted to press a Mrs White error you would hound me with her quotes and keep hounding me with her messages until the error shows up, but you do not do this.... You are vague, brevity and well it's confusing... Ge 3:17 ¶ And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, It seems Eve convinced Adam to sin, because she sinned, and the serpent convinced Eve to sin. Does this make you feel better? Have we looked up all the verses on this matter? No -------------------------------------- D" YES YOU DO – there is no such thing as an independent individual know as man Each and every man is just the HS – this is your teaching here MAN HAS NO SPIRIT – the only spirit inside man is the HS I had not thought of this before - does this mean that the angels are also not independent individuals - they are all just the HS also If the angels are not independent individuals - just the HS - how do you explain your satanR" Are you dull? Is the atom with it's motion an independent individual ? Or would the atoms cease to exist if God suddenly ceased to exist. Answer this question Dave? You admit at a subatomic level God uphold all things, and this is NOT a pantheistic idea.... what is pantheism anyway? God is all things? What does that mean? God's force or personally God in all things? Really many theories are plain silly when you ask them questions. And than what do we mean by God's force? See it's really silly to fathom such mysteries? D" Each and every man is just the HS – this is your teaching hereR" I did not say that, I said we are partnered to GOD, so the flow of power from GOD (known as the ruwach) to us as biological matter, is empowered to be living matter, that has a soul and thus can develop it's own spirit, known in Hebrew as nashamah. This is no different to the quantum flow of GOD empowers the atoms with motion, so the atom can exist as an independent free particle in the universe. D" MAN HAS NO SPIRIT – the only spirit inside man is the HSNot so, Gen 2:7 and Gen 7;2 Say differently The ruwach of GOD partners with biological matter, and imparts to us living energy, a soul that develops its own spirit called nashamah. Such a Hebrew word is used at the same time as ruwach, a strange thing that the Hebrew does, using two different Hebrew words in the same phrase "breath of life" Explain to me Dave the difference, and why they are translated the same "ruwach of chay" "Namashah of chay" Both words are used in the same English phrase, "breath of life" I see two spirit words here, one is from GOD and other God gives to man. Now start quoting me correctly. D" If the angels are not independent individuals - just the HS - how do you explain your satanR" Angels cherubims are the same as humans, God partners with them the breath of life and their namashah is their spirit of being themselves. Is it wrong for me to assume this translation is like this? Ro 8:16 The Ruwach itself beareth witness with our Namashah, that we are the children of God: How does the LXX translate nashamah ? into Greek for example? I bet it uses the word pneumia? D" There are those who reason that since humanity is made in the image of God, and that we have a body, then God must also have a body. This assumes that the image of God is physical. But the Bible teaches that God does not have a bodyR" Scripture does not say what God is like...so we cannot go there... D" The Scriptures teach that God is Spirit. Jesus said: "God is Spirit" (John 4:24). R" Incorrect assumption..... ruwach elohiym is a construct a human invention, spirit of god Elohiym ruwach must also be a construct, but is ignored by translators?, god (is) spirit. Your a translator, how can you make such inconsistent claims? D" Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have (Luke 24:39). R" correct a MEDIUM is not an entity, it's a thing that moves energy from A to B D "A spirit is also invisible. Although God led Israel by means of a pillar of fire, He was never seen by the nation. Moses made this clear to the people.R" Hmm? I would say no sinner can see the Father or the Son and live. They only see through a MEDIUM. Does a medium carry real entities? Yes, but we can only assume what they look like. You say light is a wave, I say light is both a wave and a particle, hence has a shape. D" Paul testified. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20)R" You astound me sometimes, you use verses that oppose your view. " God head" how do you believe in a "god head" three expressions of the same thing is not a godhead.... Quantum does assume a shape even though its unseen.... we can talk about God, but not describe God...He is above all things we understand D "As spirit, God is not subject to the limitations of a body as are human beings. He does not have any body parts, neither does He have human passions.R" Hmm? God has passions, He laughs and cries... Why do you deny functional descriptions of God? D" Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty (Job 11:7)R" Why do you equate this verse as one entity? Don't you read Hebrew? Can you discover the depths of ELOAH? Can you discover the limits of the SHADDAY (Job 11:7) Why is elohiym described as TWO members, one is masculine ELOAH and other feminine SHADDAY? D" It is the Spirit who gives life; Agree up to here R" Yes correct Only God is living and is life. D" His body is a human body, not a divine body R" D" Before coming to earth Christ had a FORM – not a body of flesh - vocabulary.R" D" Christ in heaven has a FORM Angels in heaven have a FORM Evil Spirits have a FORM Satan has a FORM But those FORMS are not of this world – or of the dust of this world They are the stuff of heavenly things – spiritual things)R" You write inconsistent with your view, you do not have a Satan, only a satanas...same as your evil spirits. Second the form you speak of (vocabulary) must be a body, just not as functionally the same as ours is. D "Not of this physical world - but of the spiritual invisible realityR" No, angels eat food, walk and have hands like we do. Why do you ignore this idea? Why not just say our body has different functional powers to the bodies angels have. Both are biological to an extent, whatever that means? D" The Bible teaches that God is spirit. A spirit, by definition, is invisible.R" NO assumption. Spirits pretend to be ghost like You have been deceived. D" Does God have a physical body? The Bible tells us that God is spirit and has no body. Within the Trinity, both God the Father and God the Holy Spirit have no bodyR" No don't you read Scripture? Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. The HS has a shape, fluttering like a bird with wings, is our best simile of the shape. The Father has a shape, though not described in Scripture very clearly. D" Some groups, such as the Mormons and some in what is called the “word of faith” movement, teach that God is a being who is composed of a physical, corporeal body – a body made of flesh and bone. This idea is not supported by the Bible.R" correct, The Father is not made of flesh and bone... D" YES - Interesting - more Mormon teaching from Ellen WhiteR Your rudeness is outstanding... misquote me again. SHalom PS Notice I am happy to agree with you, smilee faces, but you are stuck on a "spirit" word game that means "medium", mediums do not have shapes... nor forms The word Shadday is not Ruwach, so must refer to the shape of the feminine love personality The word Eloah is different to Elohiym, so refers to the shape of the Most High elohiym power, who expresses masculine love as a personality. When the Shadday functions as a MEDIUM (ruwach), this function is common in Scripture. My two pennies SHalom
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Post by Dave on Mar 18, 2022 11:31:47 GMT -5
Satan tempted Adam - answer at least this one R" I have tried to answer some of these questionsNO – you have tried to justify her commentsand you skip over the ones you don't want to answer You ask did Satan tempt Adam? Question: did the serpent directly tempt Adam to eat? Not directly perhaps....The correct answer from scripture = NO1Ti 2:14 Also Adam was not deceived but the woman—being deceived, she fell into transgression. Why do you and Ellen White deny the Gospel of the agl/NT?It seems Eve convinced Adam to sin, because she sinned, and the serpent convinced Eve to sin.Not what Ellen White said - Why do you and Ellen White deny the Gospel of the agl/NT?One error and it is all garbage – your absolute rule Or is it just your SDA religious double standard-------------------------------------- Is the atom with it's motion an independent individual ? Well there is such an intelligent question!Yes – each individual atom is unique and independent from all the other atoms would the atoms cease to exist if God suddenly ceased to exist. Answer this question Dave? You admit at a subatomic level God uphold all things, and this is NOT a pantheistic idea.... what is pantheism anyway?D" So – you claim that every man and woman on earth is just God
(google) What's the difference between pantheism and panentheism? In panentheism, the universal spirit is present everywhere, which at the same time "transcends" all things created. While pantheism asserts that "all is God", panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe. Which pagan view best describes you? Now you see – you have to have reading comprehension problem – I quoted the definition to you – you quoted the definition back to me – and ask – what is the definitionD"Each and every man is just the HS – this is your teaching here R" I did not say that, I said we are partnered to GODWHO IS WE – you have no we – but say we are partnered with GodD"MAN HAS NO SPIRIT – the only spirit inside man is the HS Not so, Gen 2:7 and Gen 7;2 Say differentlyMake up your mind – is man an unique and independent individual that can make his own decisions Or is the only spirit within man just the HSI see two spirit words here, one is from GOD and other God gives to man.YES – one is God and one is manQuestion – is every cow on the plant just the HS? How about bacteria – are they just the HS R" I did not say that, I said we are partnered to GODWho is weD"If the angels are not independent individuals - just the HS - how do you explain your satan R" Angels cherubims are the same as humans, When do angels return to the dust of the earth – when do angel have children – when do angels grow old?How does the LXX translate nashamah ? into Greek for example? I bet it uses the word pneumia?Why do you make up stuff – why don’t you just check the facts – you are a student aren’t you?23 times as G4157 or G1709 (Breath in / breath out) G4157 – πνοή - From G4154; respiration, a breeze: - breath, wind. G1709 - ἐμπνέω - From G1722 and G4154; to inhale, that is, (figuratively) to be animated by (bent upon): - breathe. 1 time as pnuema 1Ki 17:17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. G4151 - πνεῦμα - From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, Man’s spirit is his soulJob 32:8 But there is a spirit (ruach) in man: and the inspiration (breath) of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Job 33:4 The Spirit (ruach) of God hath made me, and the breath (breath) of the Almighty hath given me life. YES the Holy Spirit as Creator – there is only One True Creator – God the HS is the spirit of God YES – God breath the spirit into man – Yes God breathe man’s soul into man Gen 2:7 animal and spirit are mated together to make the first HUIMAN BIENGJob 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; D"There are those who reason that since humanity is made in the image of God, and that we have a body, then God must also have a body. This assumes that the image of God is physical. But the Bible teaches that God does not have a body R" Scripture does not say what God is like...so we cannot go there...YES WE CAN BECAUSE SCRIPTURE IS FILLED WITH DISCRIPTIONS OF GODPrecept upon precept, line upon lineD"The Scriptures teach that God is Spirit. Jesus said: "God is Spirit" (John 4:24). R" Incorrect assumption.....So the only way you and Ellen White are correct is if you deliberately deny the agl/NT Gospel John wrote a agl/NT Gospel + several epistles of the agl/NT – and you claim he is error Just as you have argued that James, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas are all errorOne error and it is all garbage according to your standardsAre we all do take the Gospel of John out of the agl/NT? You don’t have much scripture left to stand on Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Why do you refuse to worship in spirit – or truth Instead – you preach that you must do deliberate things daily so you won’t fall from grace D"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have (Luke 24:39). R" correct a MEDIUM is not an entity, it's a thing that moves energy from A to BOn the sub-atomic level We are trying to have a conversation about consciousness and spiritD"As spirit, God is not subject to the limitations of a body as are human beings. He does not have any body parts, neither does He have human passions. R" Hmm? God has passions, He laughs and cries... Why do you deny functional descriptions of God? 1- I did not write this and you know it2- THE POINT of the article - Is that God is not to be anthropomorphizedGod is omnipresent – ubiquitous D"Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty (Job 11:7) R" Why do you equate this verse as one entity? Don't you read Hebrew? Can you discover the depths of ELOAH? Can you discover the limits of the SHADDAY (Job 11:7) Why is elohiym described as TWO members, one is masculine ELOAH and other feminine SHADDAY?TRINITY – the Holy Spirit = the Spirit of God - DUH word+word+word= only one word = God The Thought behind the word – The Speaker of the word – and the word that reverberated throughout the allOnly you and the SDA teach multiple gods in heaven – there is Only One true GodD"Some groups, such as the Mormons and some in what is called the “word of faith” movement, teach that God is a being who is composed of a physical, corporeal body – a body made of flesh and bone. This idea is not supported by the Bible. R" correct, The Father is not made of flesh and bone...I am confused – do you teach God is biology with a form or don’t you – make up your mind Man is made in the image of God – you absolutely demand this does not mean spiritual – it means biologyOppose away and sooner or later you just oppose yourself – pick a constant doctrine and stick with it D"YES - Interesting - more Mormon teaching from Ellen White R Your rudeness is outstanding... misquote me again. AND YES IT IS INTERESTING the correlation between your teachings and those of Joseph Smith – both originated in the same Great Awakening of the 1830-1860s
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Post by Dave on Apr 8, 2022 10:48:05 GMT -5
D"Prove to me that Ellen White is a Prophet of the Lord R" www.ellenwhite.info/predictions.htmThere have been many clairvoyants that have been correct She claims inspiration then contradicts scripture – old and new
I find this is the best way to prove she was NOT inspired.
You Sir – have lost your credibility – you have an agenda to prove and you only seek supportive evidence– you misrepresent facts to fit your narrative – you are not academically honest – you misrepresent scripture to fit your narrative. Proven here repeatedly! There is no question that you and the creationist crap you oush all have an element of lie at their base AND - when you are busted - you just deflect and change to subject - doesn't seem to phase you at all as a Christian dedicated to the TRUTHYou push the idea of two gods locked in an eternal controversy – two gods opposed to one another You have been given the opportunity to prove yourself precept upon precept – line upon line Where is your proof? – instead you change the subject to attack mainstream Christianity from a different angel I base my study on Jeff Benner meanings of words and how Mrs White uses those word meanings. I point out that Mrs White never knew Hebrew or wrote Hebrew, Yet her English follows Ancient Hebrew meanings. I find this is the best way to prove she was inspired. Every single word of Caesar’s Messiah is 100% straight out of scripture – word for word – zero misrepresenting the words themselves – 100% English proof that Jesus Christ was a Flavian and Rome is the savior You say this proves that Caesar’s Messiah is not inspired For you just to claim – “I’m right and they are wrong” – is just arrogant christian speech Ellen White – as you present her – contradicts scripture both ahl/OT and agl/NT Ellen White – as you present her – contradicts the Gospel and the teaching of Jesus Christ If there is any error – it is all garbage – Roberts Rule According to you – what do you call someone who opposes scripture and the Jesus Christwww.versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/is-the-seventh-day-adventist-church-a-cultAre Seventh-Day Adventists Christian? Based on this definition, the Seventh Day Adventist Church could be considered a cult. While they call themselves Christian (and probably many who attend Adventist churches are, in fact, believers in Jesus Christ), the organization itself professes unbiblical and harmful doctrines and beliefs outside the mainstream of orthodox Christianity. Their movement originated in 1836 with William Miller (1782-1849), a false prophet who claimed to know that the second coming of Christ would happen in 1843. When this prediction proved false, many left the movement in a period called “The Great Disappointment.” Given this man’s obvious fraud, we might assume his followers would abandon him quickly since he failed the basic biblical test for the office of prophet. … Under the influence of these (likely demonic) visions, White and others in the church invented new, unbiblical concepts of life after death, including the notion that the dead enter a period of soul sleep, where they know nothing. They also taught that no hell exists and that the wicked merely cease to exist at the end of time. Each of these beliefs contradicts the clear teaching of scripture. No punishment for the wicked – wow – Satanist must take comfort in this Grab all you can now - because there is no consquence laterThe Seventh-Day Adventist teachings concerning living under the Law of Moses are an attempt to reinstitute (selectively) a lifestyle of law-keeping as part of their works-based Gospel, despite the Bible’s clear teaching that the New Testament believer is not bound to keep the Law of Moses. In summary, the church's fraudulent beginnings, false doctrines, legalistic requirements and restrictive governing practices lead to the conclusion that the Adventist religion is not orthodox Christianity. It operates as a cult-like organization founded on the teaching of false prophets and holds to views contrary to the plain teaching of scripture. Ellen White contradicts the agl/NT – She contradicts the Gospel of Jesus ChristThough the Seventh-Day Adventist church may count many true Christians among its ranks, those believers have been deceived and are being mistaught concerning the Bible, salvation, eternity and the Christian life. Therefore, we strongly recommend any believer caught up in Adventism to flee this false church and seek for true Christian fellowship elsewhere, preferably in a church that holds to orthodox, biblical truth. What Robert presents here is anti-Jewish and anti-Christian He offers a replace theology based upon satanFinally, it's no coincidence that Adventism was founded at about the same time in history and in the same place as three other false churches with similar distorted teaching: Mormonism, Christian Science, and Jehovah’s Witnesses. This pattern suggests that Satan was at work at one time to establish these false churches in an effort to confuse and mislead new believers during the Great Awakening period of North American Christianity. Together, these four false religions continue to deceive many today. YES – I thought so as well – the same awakening movement that includes the Mormon and the JW AND the Islamic Bahai Faith that uses the same advent math as Miller and his SDAFor a more in-depth exposé of Adventist heresy compared to orthodox biblical doctrines, we encourage you to visit the website Gently Broken, a blog written by a Christian who was formerly a member of the Adventist religion. sogentlybroken.blogspot.com/Gently Broken – From the Adventist’s hearth – That longs for more of Jesus ChristWOW – not very supportive of Robert, his Ellen White, or his SDABeset by Critics, Adventist Official Cites 'Satanic Influence'https://www.christianitytoday.com › november-20 › bes... Nov 20, 1981 — Beset by theological dissension and accusations of plagiarism in the writings of founder Ellen G. White, the Seventh-day Adventist church ...
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