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Post by Dave on Aug 27, 2022 6:55:41 GMT -5
RP" Question: Why is THE-opposer at this meeting? D" Because he is heaven prosecutor - DUH R" The text doesn't say that? Deny away Robert------------------- Consider my second reply to our discussion Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Does God say Job is completely perfect in his salvation process? Y/N SureDoes the "hey-satan" oppose God's declaration? Y/N NO – God asked His servant a question and the servant replied honestlyYou say God intentionally chose an angel to become His prosecutor, so this "hey-satan" is a "good angel doing a bad job". His functional role is to prosecute humans of sin. Question" A prosecutor does not cause harm to a human, as well as prosecute the human, that would be a conflict of interest, and a crime punishable by God. Unless God tells an angel to kill all the first born Why do you teach it SIN to obey the LordDo you agree that your prosecutor is actually guilty of crimes against humanity, and is not just a good angel doing the job of prosecuting humans over their sins? REDICULAS NONSENSE----------------- Job 1:9 The prosecutor asked "Doth Job fear God for nought? Why would a prosecutor challenge God? Why would a servant of the Lord lie to God? Why do you teach it a SIN to be honest with God?But aren't there billions of angels recording every good and bad thing we do as humans already, just to keep God honest? Book or life,, Book of memories, maybe a book of sins recorded by angels? The Bible lacks deep details in this....? to keep God honest – your disrespect abounds------------------- Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, Why doesn't the angel prosecutor ask God to send in His Shedim to tempt Job again....but there is no reference to this? Isn't this going beyond a prosecutor's role? Why do you teach it a sin to obey the Lord?-------------------------- Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. What powers is suggested here, the prosecutor has? to harm Job, certainly not ?, that is a conflict of interest ? Is it not? Your satan never harmed Job – man didI do not see any prosecutor function here. Why is this angel seeking humans or shedim possessed humans to harm Job? Why do you need to make it evil Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man - DUH and why do you teach it a sin to obey the LordWhy does this angel have this function to cause harm? A prosecutor is not a causer of harm, not his role? Your satan never harmed Job – man did Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man - DUH------------------------- OK now your turn to reply - answer the questions before you Why do you deny the New Testament and call yourself a Christianand - why do you teach it a sin to obey the LordThe Real Reason the Devil Exists7:25 min - Jewish Learning Institute Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. EXPOSED: What the Rabbis may not want you to know...14:38 min
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 6:01:23 GMT -5
Consider my THIRD reply to our discussion ----------------1--------------- R1 "Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? R2" Does God say Job is completely perfect in his salvation process? Y/ND2" SureR2" Does the "hey-satan" oppose God's declaration? Y/ND2" NO – God asked His servant a question and the servant replied honestly
R3" I didn't think any creature could say a negation Dave, after all GOD said Job was perfectly saved and avoids RA all the time. What cheek to oppose God's remarks about a human? And you say this is answering honestly? If I said Job got 100% pass in his faith test, and the other person says no Job didn't, because you protect Job too much? Somebody is lying here? Either God is lying and Job didn't reach 100% or the oppose is lying and saying God is wrong, they cannot both be right, but you say the opposer was being honest? I do not see honest here? ------------2---------------- R2 " Question" A prosecutor does not cause harm to a human, as well as prosecute the human, that would be a conflict of interest, and a crime punishable by God.D2" Unless God tells an angel to kill all the first born - Why do you teach it SIN to obey the LordR3" You are going to have make more discussion than this Dave, because your remarks are way off the discussion, you are making a tangent remark. Show me the text where GOD asks the angel to harm and kill all of Job's assets? Since where is a prosecutor angel allowed to harm and kill, this is outside of the function of a prosecutor angel, is it not? So now Dave adds to this discussion that angels can be asked to have various roles of function, not just one at a time, is that your hypothesis? Make a discussion and back it up with Bible verses Dave. God telling an angel to kill humans, is off this topic and not the evidence in JOB, so please do not bring to the table remarks that are not specifically from the evidence at hand.... That is another topic for another day, am I clear here? Otherwise this discussion is not on target, and becomes avoiding the discussion of evidence at hand. Stay on the topic. Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, Notice this prosecuting angel wants God to remove His protecting hedge. Question for you: Is this a normal question coming for a prosecuting angel ? To me, NO, the prosecuting angel should not be concerned with God's hedging of Job, only about prosecuting Job of further sinning? I see a conflict of interest here, and your premise is wrong.... The opposer is showing who it is, an opposer, opposing God. I recommend you discuss this clearly. ---------------3-------------- R2" Do you agree that your prosecutor is actually guilty of crimes against humanity, and is not just a good angel doing the job of prosecuting humans over their sins?D2" REDICULAS NONSENSER3" Notice the evidence before this discussion Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, .... thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; 1) What right has a prosecutor to challenge the salvation process of humans? 2) A prosecutor should only prosecute humans for sin, not get involved in helping humans sin more, and than prosecuting the human for sins, the prosecutor arranged to happen? 3) Why does GOD allow the prosecutor power? Power to do what ? Prosecute Job for sinning? Hardly. It is clear from the context the prosecuting angel is harming, or arranging others to harm Job and his assets. Now from you lack of discussion, I gather you think God can asks angels to change their functional roles and we might assume that the angel is now asked to harm Job as well as prosecute Job for the sins that the prosecutor helped to bring out. Question" If I am under torture and I say what my prosecuting attacker what to hear, so the torture goes away, and I get prosecuted for the crime I confessed to, did I really do those crimes I confessed to, or was I forced into making a confession, or forced into doing something, I would not normally do? If you argue this Dave, than God is also guilty of making Job sin, since God agreed to inflict Job with harm so Job would sin. I do not see this as fair and in a court room case it would be contempt of court, a conflict of interest and all parties should be sentenced of crimes. You cannot as you claim have God with a department that does His dirty work, and God not be guilty of the crimes others do. It doesn't work that way, its still a crime of association. Whoever harms Job, has to want to harm Job freely, not because God asks him to harm Job, that would make God guilty of sin. Once God asked a prophet to burn human dung to cook meals, but the prophet refused and God allowed the prophet to use cattle dung instead. Why didn't the prophet ignore the ordinance laws and obey the Lord as the Lord told him? Because the laws come above the words of the Lord, is what I get from the laws. God writes laws that God Himself cannot override. This makes obeying God logical and fair. Now I have written enough for this discussion to get more than a pity remark. Job 1:10 Since when can a creature make questions how God does things? A creature cannot question the salvation process? When God created creation, all the angels shouted for joy, no angel suggested a little more colour or a little less shadow, God alone did it all perfectly. A hedge is used to protect humans from predators. Can I ask Dave, who are the predators in Job's story? And why is a prosecutor asking God to remove the hedge, unless He is a predator, a chief predator at that. A prosecutor should NOT be interested in removing salvation processes, that is outside of his function. Now your discussion is required throughout these verses of evidence. -------------4--------------- R2" J ob 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. What powers is suggested here, the prosecutor has? to harm Job, certainly not ?, that is a conflict of interest ? Is it not?D2" Your satan never harmed Job – man didR3" Really? How come God says "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"; What is meant by this statement? Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven,Where did this power of harm come from? Not from human source that's for sure... and certainly not from God, because God said "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"; Don't you love how Scripture asks all the doubters and mockers of the inspired torah? So from this evidence, the Opposer must have caused this. Do you agree? --------- side track-------Is there any evidence of the Opposer doing things like this? Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 1Ki 18:21 ¶ And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. A sidetrack, sorry, but Baal was a god of thunder, and if you come over to my side, you find this opposer who brings fire down from heaven, is mentioned doing this many times. Baal who was a simile of the Opposer couldn't do it though when challenged by Elijah. God is greater than the false elohiym power. ----------5------------ R2" Why is this angel seeking humans or shedim possessed humans to harm Job?D2" Why do you need to make it evil Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man - DUH and why do you teach it a sin to obey the LordR3" Your discussion is very brief Dave. So are you admitting the prosecutor works with shedim? Isn't this a conflict of interest? Yes correct the hedge normally keeps humans away from the shedim. But why is the prosecuting angel tied to shedim? Please answer. God did not want Job harmed.... God's hedge is there to keep shedim away. SO why would a prosecutor want the hedge removed? thus allow shedim to attack Job? To prosecute Job MORE? Again this is a conflict of interest? Since when do prosecutors arrange to have this victims under investigation arranged to do more crimes? You ask " i t a sin to obey the Lord" so did God ask this angel to ask shedim to attack Job more? Is that it? Aren't the shedim capable of talking and building stones for SOlomon it seems, so why didn't God ask the shedim or chief shedim directly? Missing from Job, a serious breach in your theories? -----------6----------- Dave presents video evidence The real reason the devil exists
Judiasm we have terms of existence, yester ra, angel of death, negative connations. God is good, so everyting is good, nothing is inherently evil The satan to get us to act immorally, rebel against parent or not follow laws, it is a job they were created for. That is there job, created by God, to challenge us, they are not successful, we humans are successful, to grow we struggle, to be sucess, is attributed to you,. Idea of devil something bad, not a Jewish idea, bring us down, is only a test. Abram first Jew, embrace one Creator and one Redeemer, put ABram through 10 tests. Abram saw it as a test and went through. Overcome we leap to a new challenge. Only bad and evil if people continually through choice keep doing wickedly. Rabbi in Germany 100 years ago, getting up in morning, father say you can't get out of bed. Learn to serve God, the inclination to do bad, help us to be stronger and better as a person. Purgatory is a process of cleansing, not really bad. R" THis video is about the SHEDIM, not the angel functioning as a prosecutor? If God is really good , and the shedim are their to trip us up so we become more successful, why than for the need for a prosecuting angel? That suggests God is nit picking tyrant over every sin we do against him, not a really good God, wanting us to be successful ? Dave presents another video EXPOSED: What the Rabbis may not want you to know.
Rabbi Friedman, all religion puts the burden on you.... your bad you have to be good. It's your problem. People reject that all ove rthe world, because it's not true. Not about reward and punishment. God needs something from us, we serve him and reject him God is needy, we are not. Most Rabbi are not convinced... Without God you can't live, I didn;t ask to live... You need help from heaven, not true. Parents don't take drugs, to their kids... I must , I need, not true Worst thing is you won't live.... so... threats do not work... Can't get anywhere with threats....homeless, poor kid has to catch the bus for school No you have to go, good college, why do I have to Get a good job, do I have to have a job? We got get up and we plough and not eat for winter... Poor I will be on welfare....no threats are real anymore... If you do you go to hell, so you start with threat.... does not work Rabbi are terrified of....you must be a good Jew, I must? I have to? I do have to... not do it, I will be fine... God needs you to get up, God needs you, you don't. We rather be needed than to be needy God created the world, so God obviously needs... Somebody needs you... Home alone make lunch, left overs.. If make lunch with a friend, we enjoy making lunch for somebody else.
R" So from this video, GOD needs JOB, and it happy to tell others in a meeting how perfect JOB is in God salvation process. The most perfect Human God has ever seen since Enoch. Enoch was so perfect Enoch walked right into heaven. Maybe Job is like Enoch. What I don't get is why have an angel is negating God's happiness and his declaration of salvation. When God created the heavens and earth, all the morning stars sang for joy. Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? There are no angels negating God's handiwork or suggesting a little more color or a little more shadow, they just shout for joy. I assume all the angels do. SO I get Dave's theory to create creatures to tempt humans to do better, the humans sin, so they are repenting to do better next time, God is needy and wants a fully developed will, that has developed both sins and faith in order to have experienced good and ra. It was all designed this way, so humans can become more successful. Sounds nice, but is it Biblical? 1) Why aren't the shedim mentioned in Job than? 2) Why isn't the opposer mentioned as a chief administrator over the shedim? No mention of this? 3) If God wants humans to experience both good and evil and become successful seeking God in faith, why the need for exacting judgements with a prosecutor, who has no mercy in his function, but God does? A prosecutor does not fit these two videos as evidence. 1) A prosecutor is not kind, nor gracious 2) The prosecutor wants the hedge removed to allow shedim to have more success in attacking. 3) God is needy for humans, so how does a prosecutor help God achieve this? Answer these question Dave, using the video evidence you supplied or any texts within Job Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 28, 2022 9:55:21 GMT -5
R1 "Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? R2" Does God say Job is completely perfect in his salvation process? Y/N D2" Sure R2" Does the "hey-satan" oppose God's declaration? Y/N D2" NO – God asked His servant a question and the servant replied honestly R3" I didn't think any creature could say a negation Dave, after all GOD said Job was perfectly saved and avoids RA all the time. How does satan negate God words – satan agreed that Job is righteous – because God is protecting JobWhat cheek to oppose God's remarks about a human? And you say this is answering honestly? All men are sinners – (Rom 5:12) why isn’t satan being honest with God?If I said Job got 100% pass in his faith test, and the other person says no Job didn't, because you protect Job too much? Somebody is lying here? Either God is lying and Job didn't reach 100% or the oppose is lying and saying God is wrong, they cannot both be right, but you say the opposer was being honest? I do not see honest here? They are both correct – Job is righteous – because God is protecting Job With God’s protection – of course Job is perfect Satan just says – would Job be if the hedge was rewmoved?------------2---------------- R2 " Question" A prosecutor does not cause harm to a human, as well as prosecute the human, that would be a conflict of interest, and a crime punishable by God. D2" Unless God tells an angel to kill all the first born - Why do you teach it SIN to obey the Lord R3" You are going to have make more discussion than this Dave, because your remarks are way off the discussion, you are making a tangent remark. Show me the text where GOD asks the angel to harm and kill all of Job's assets? There is none – because that never happened – man killed Job’s children Since where is a prosecutor angel allowed to harm and kill, this is outside of the function of a prosecutor angel, is it not? Man killed Job’s children Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other manSo now Dave adds to this discussion that angels can be asked to have various roles of function, not just one at a time, is that your hypothesis? Make a discussion and back it up with Bible verses Dave. YES – angels obey God and do whatever God asks of themJob 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. God telling satan to go do his worst – why is it a sin to obey GodJob 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, Notice this prosecuting angel wants God to remove His protecting hedge. Question for you: Is this a normal question coming for a prosecuting angel ? Already answeredTo me, NO, the prosecuting angel should not be concerned with God's hedging of Job, only about prosecuting Job of further sinning? I see a conflict of interest here, and your premise is wrong.... Why shouldn’t the angel of the Lord be honest with the Lord?The opposer is showing who it is, an opposer, opposing God. I recommend you discuss this clearly. The opposer was sent off by God to oppose Job---------------3-------------- R2" Do you agree that your prosecutor is actually guilty of crimes against humanity, and is not just a good angel doing the job of prosecuting humans over their sins? D2" REDICULAS NONSENSE R3" Notice the evidence before this discussion Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, .... thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; 1) What right has a prosecutor to challenge the salvation process of humans? That is his job – DUH – to expose man of his sin – to accuse man of his sin2) A prosecutor should only prosecute humans for sin, not get involved in helping humans sin more, and than prosecuting the human for sins, the prosecutor arranged to happen? So you teach your satan should disobey God when told to go do his worst Why so you teach it st a sin to obey God?3) Why does GOD allow the prosecutor power? Power to do what ? Prosecute Job for sinning? Hardly. Why would God allow the prosecutor power to oppose God?It is clear from the context the prosecuting angel is harming, or arranging others to harm Job and his assets. All the scripture says the harm came from man Without the hedge – Job is just as vulnerable to the BEAST as any manNow from you lack of discussion, I gather you think God can asks angels to change their functional roles and we might assume that the angel is now asked to harm Job as well as prosecute Job for the sins that the prosecutor helped to bring out. ABSOLUTE NONSENSE Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord The Beast of the WORLD is the tempterYou cannot as you claim have God with a department that does His dirty work, and God not be guilty of the crimes others do. It doesn't work that way, its still a crime of association. Your warm and fuzzy Feel Good God is a myth - God ordered the hit upon Job – your satan obeyed God All God’s Plan – all God’s Will - to facilitate God’s Will upon earth - DUHWhoever harms Job, has to want to harm Job freely, not because YES – that is what the BEAST does God asks him to harm Job, that would make God guilty of sin. Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Did Satan obey God – YES Did satan kill Job – NO Did satan obey God - YES Why do you teach it a sin to obey GodJob 1:10 Since when can a creature make questions how God does things? A creature cannot question the salvation process? Why do you teach it is a sin to be honest with God?A hedge is used to protect humans from predators. Can I ask Dave, who are the predators in Job's story? The Beast – the ancient serpent race – that we call devils and satanas-------------4--------------- R2" Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. What powers is suggested here, the prosecutor has? to harm Job, certainly not ?, that is a conflict of interest ? Is it not? D2" Your satan never harmed Job – man did R3" Really? How come God says "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"; What is meant by this statement? IF you are saying God ordered your satan to harm Job – then why is it wrong for your satan to obey God? I am saying – without the hedge Job is as vulnerable to the BEAST as any manJob 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, Where did this power of harm come from? Not from human source that's for sure... and certainly not from God, because God said "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"; Why do you deny scripture – why do you rewrite scripture to fit your doctrine The fire of God = the fire of God – you need to change it into the fire of satan Why do you deny scripture – why do you rewrite scripture to fit your doctrineSo from this evidence, the Opposer must have caused this. Do you agree? All God’s Plan – all God’s Will – your satan only obeys God ---------side track-------Is there any evidence of the Opposer doing things like this? Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 1Ki 18:21 ¶ And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. A sidetrack, sorry, but Baal was a god of thunder, YES – Baal is just one of the 33 ‘other gods’ of the Levant – shedim – all of them ----------5------------ R2" Why is this angel seeking humans or shedim possessed humans to harm Job? D2" Why do you need to make it evil Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man - DUH and why do you teach it a sin to obey the Lord R3" Your discussion is very brief Dave. Let me explain - Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man - DUHSo are you admitting the prosecutor works with shedim? Isn't this a conflict of interest? Let me explain - Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man - DUHYes correct the hedge normally keeps humans away from the shedim. But why is the prosecuting angel tied to shedim? Please answer. Let me explain - Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man – DUHGod did not want Job harmed.... God's hedge is there to keep shedim away. CORRECT – satan’s answer to God – of course Job is righteous because your hedge keeps the shedim away – why do you teach is is a sin for your satan to honest with GodSO why would a prosecutor want the hedge removed? thus allow shedim to attack Job? To answer the question – would Job curse God without it? - DUHTo prosecute Job MORE? Again this is a conflict of interest? The prosecutor is NOT the BEAST – he is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord The BEAST is NOT the prosecutor - he is the serpent race – that we call devils and satanasYou ask " it a sin to obey the Lord" so did God ask this angel to ask shedim to attack Job more? That is their design – that is their function-----------6----------- Dave presents video evidence The real reason the devil exists R" THis video is about the SHEDIM, not the angel functioning as a prosecutor? YES IT IS – Jewish devils = shedim If God is really good, and the shedim are their to trip us up so we become more successful, why than for the need for a prosecuting angel? The prosecutor is there to expose your sinThat suggests God is nit picking tyrant over every sin we do against him, not a really good God, wanting us to be successful ? YES – God is picky over sin – Even only sinned once – and is pissed God off God’s judgment is absolute – you are guilty and we will all pay for our sins - or you are awarded a Divine PardonDave presents another video EXPOSED: What the Rabbis may not want you to know.R" So from this video, GOD needs JOB, and it happy to tell others in a meeting how perfect JOB is in God salvation process. The most perfect Human God has ever seen since Enoch. Enoch was so perfect Enoch walked right into heaven. Maybe Job is like Enoch. YES – God loves the Prodigal Son – Rewards in heavenWhat I don't get is why have an angel is negating God's happiness and his declaration of salvation. Why is it a sin for the angel of the Lord to be totally honest with God?When God created the heavens and earth, all the morning stars sang for joy. AND THE OTHER GROUP (bane elohiym) H7321 – רוּעַ - rûa‛ - A primitive root; to mar (especially by breaking); figuratively to split the ears (with sound), that is, shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God (bane elohiym) shouted H7321 – רוּעַ - rûa‛There are no angels negating God's handiwork or suggesting a little more color or a little more shadow, they just shout for joy. I assume all the angels do. YES – angels serve and praise – no angel ever changed his form or function on his own – then changed all of God’s Plan against God’s Will – absolutely ridiculesSO I get Dave's theory to create creatures to tempt humans to do better, The archon tempt man – so man can deny them and choose the Lord And continually denying them leads to endurance with builds faith
Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Jas 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. Jas 1:12 Happy is the one who endures testing, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love Him. Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. (yester ra)Jas 1:15 Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is full grown, it brings forth death. Sounds nice, but is it Biblical?WHY DO YOU DENY THE agl/New Testament – and call yourself a Christian1) Why aren't the shedim mentioned in Job than? BOOM – grasp the message of the text The ahl/OT is all about the NATION - (God’s chosen people) – the shedim had names – Baal, Molech., Dogon, Chermush, etc – 33 of them in total The ahl/OT is all about the NATION - Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.” The ahl/OT is all about the NATION - Jdg 2:1 Now the angel of Adonai came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and He said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and took you into the land which I swore to your fathers. I also said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. Jdg 2:2 Now as for you, you must make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land. You must break down their altars.’ But you have not listened to My voice. What is this you have done? Jdg 2:3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out from before you, but they will be thorns in your sides, and their gods will be a snare to you.’” Jdg 2:4 Now when the angel of Adonai spoke these words to all Bnei-Yisrael, the people lifted up their voice and wept. The ahl/OT is all about the NATION - (God’s chosen people) - the shedim are the 33 other gods of the Levant and their demonsThe agl/NT is all about YOU – personal one on oneThe agl/NT is all about YOU – it is personal – your struggle with the shedim Eph 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. Eph 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you are able to stand against the schemes of the devil. Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you may be able to resist when the times are evil, and after you have done everything, to stand firm. Eph 6:14 Stand firm then! Buckle the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness. Eph 6:15 Strap up your feet in readiness with the Good News of shalom. Eph 6:16 Above all, take up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Eph 6:18 Pray in the Ruach on every occasion, with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, keep alert with perseverance and supplication for all the kedoshim. Eph 6:19 And pray for me when I open my mouth to make known with boldness the mystery of the Good News, Eph 6:20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may speak boldly, the way I should. Pray in the Ruach on every occasion, I am an ambassador in chains. - Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.” 2) Why isn't the opposer mentioned as a chief administrator over the shedim? No mention of this?Why do you deny the agl/NT?Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. Rev 12:4 …. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child. Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water. Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light!” and there was light. Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to His throne. Gen 1:4 God saw that the light was good. So God distinguished the light from the darkness. Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought, Rev 12:8 but they were not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. Gen 1:5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” So there was evening and there was morning—one day. ------------------------- 3) If God wants humans to experience both good and evil and become successful seeking God in faith, Correct – but I will say it differentlyGod loves you and misses you – God wants to be close to you – but the only way it is true love is for God to let you go into the wilderness but the only way it is true love is for you to choose God all on your own – your choice – your choice alone Luke 15:11-32 - The Parable of the Prodigal Son ----------------------------- why the need for exacting judgements with a prosecutor, who has no mercy in his function, but God does? The role of the Hebrew prosecutor is to PROTECT GOD’s KINGDOM - No sinners allowed Enoch was a full part of Jewish theology at the time of Jesus Christ – CONTEXT Enoch is quoted 64 times within the agl/NT The prophesy of Enoch is referred to as fact and factualEnoch also tells us that the heavens (pl) are filled with (other life forms) angels – many and many types They are delegated with responsibilities – some near the throne – other farther away – tending the storehouses of the rain and snow – tending to the orbits and suns – stoking the furnaces of the suns – holding up the heaven – guarding prisoners in chains – helping man (guardian angels) The role of the Hebrew prosecutor is to PROTECT GOD’s KINGDOM - No sinners allowedGnostic - The role of the Hebrew prosecutor – from my (yester tov) = my guilty conscious Father Murphy is the priest of a large church – good guy – respected – authored many Christian books – gives a great sermon – preaches on TV – loved by many But deep inside – he knows he is worried about the money – maybe even a pedophile – embezzler The role of the Hebrew prosecutor is to PROTECT GOD’s KINGDOM - No sinners allowedA prosecutor does not fit these two videos as evidence.ABSOLUTEY CORRECT – video 1 is about Jewish devils / satanas = shedimNo connection to the Hebrew Prosecutor at all No connection to Hebrew satan at allA prosecutor does not fit these two videos as evidence.ABSOLUTEY CORRECT – video 2 - EXPOSED: What the Rabbis may not want you to know.My paraphrase – The Southern Baptist teach – A THREAT - you better believe or you will burn in eternal hell This is all saving yourself – it is selfish – and the threat of death to a fatalistic culture is an empty threat Judaism is focused upon God – witnessing for God – living for God – God Centric – praising God If you are doing these things – all the rest God takes care of for you I CANNOT MAKE or FORCE GOD TO SAVE ME – all I can do is serve God and He will judge me fairly for it ABSOLUTEY CORRECT – video 2 is why the threat of satan and hell is an empty messageNo connection to the Hebrew Prosecutor at all No connection to Hebrew satan at all No connection to Jewish devils / satanas / shedim at all1) A prosecutor is not kind, nor gracious – not his job2) The prosecutor wants the hedge removed to allow shedim to have more success in attacking. Wants? Just suggested it as the reason for Job’s righteous If you are a rich spoiled child – and have never been hungry (hedge) – what proof is there that when you are starving you would NEVER steal bread? 3) God is needy for humans, so how does a prosecutor help God achieve this? The role of the Hebrew prosecutor is to PROTECT GOD’s KINGDOM - No sinners allowedAnswer these question Dave, using the video evidence you supplied or any texts within Job YOUR TURN – many outstanding question before you – Mr Honest----------------------- Very Gnostic story about the prosecutor – Not from James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, or ThomasI do NOT offer this as scripture – this is a commentary by a man from the first century AD This is CONTEXT to Jesus Christ and the thinking of the times – the theology of the times This text does NOT misrepresent Jewish afterlife of Proportional Punishment until purifiedAsclepius 21-29Now the body dies when it is not able to support the man. And this is death: the dissolution of the body and the destruction of the sensation of the body. And it is not necessary to be afraid of this, nor because of this, but because of what is not known, and is disbelieved (is one afraid)." "But what is not known, or is disbelieved?" "Listen, Asclepius! There is a great demon. The great God has appointed him to be overseer or judge over the souls of men. And God has placed him in the middle of the air, between earth and heaven. Now when the soul comes forth from (the) body, it is necessary that it meet this daimon. Immediately, he (the daimon) will surround this one (masc.), and he will examine him in regard to the character that he has developed in his life. And if he finds that he piously performed all of his actions for which he came into the world, this (daimon) will allow him ... (1 line missing) ... turn him [...]. But if he sees [...] in this one [...] he brought his life into evil deeds, he grasps him, as he flees upward, and throws him down, so that he is suspended between heaven and earth, and is punished with a great punishment. And he will be deprived of his hope, and will be in great pain. Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment, The role of the Hebrew prosecutor is to PROTECT GOD’s KINGDOM - No sinners allowed Divine Pardon and entry – or Proportional Punishment"And that soul has been put neither on the earth nor in heaven, but it has come into the open sea of the air of the world, the place where there is a great fire, and crystal water, and furrows of fire, and a great upheaval. The bodies are tormented (in) various (ways). Sometimes they are cast down into the fire, in order that it may destroy them. Now, I will not say that this is the death of the soul, for it has been delivered from evil, but it is a death sentence. "Asclepius, it is necessary to believe these things and to fear them, in order that we might not encounter them. For unbelievers are impious, and commit sin. Afterwards, they will be compelled to believe, and they will not hear by word of mouth only, but will experience the reality itself. Proportional Punishment - they will be compelled to believe, and they will not hear by word of mouth only, but will experience the reality itself.
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Post by Dave on Aug 28, 2022 13:00:48 GMT -5
"Asclepius, it is necessary to believe these things and to fear them, in order that we might not encounter them. For unbelievers are impious, and commit sin. Afterwards, they will be compelled to believe, and they will not hear by word of mouth only, but will experience the reality itself.
Proportional Punishment - they will be compelled to believe, and they will not hear by word of mouth only, but will experience the reality itself.
The centuries old joke = I was a Good Baptist all my life - but woke up in heaven to learn I should have been a Methodist ------------------------------
The Psychology of Understanding By David Freed 06/20/2006
There is a grave stone, in Northern Indiana, with the most fascinating verse engraved upon the front.
It simply says: As you are, I once was and as I am, you soon will be.
Short, simple, straight to the point and perhaps the most profound revelation of mortality. We are all going to die sooner or later. So then, the next most important question becomes - Then what? - is there something more? The question for me is not whether there is a God and an afterlife! The question, for me as a man, is if there is a God and an afterlife, and I do eventually meet my maker; will I be able to look Him straight in the eye and shake His hand, or will I be ashamed and embarrassed for who I really am? If there is no God and nothing more, then anything said or done here matters not. It is just the Confusion I Ponder until I expire. However, if there is something more, then how do I or any one make an honest and objective investigation of this possibility. I wish I felt comfortable just sticking to the facts, but let’s just look at what the facts are. ------------------
The Rabbi speaks as if – we wake up in heaven in front of the Lord – covered in shame
The Rabbi speaks as if – we wake up in heaven in front of the Lord – covered with sin stained earthly clothing – that must be purified / washed clean – to each man his due – Proportional
The Rabbi speaks as if – we wake up in heaven in front of the Lord – covered in the smell of sin – maybe our earthly clothing stinks of sin – that must be purified / washed clean / wear off – to each man his due – Proportional ----------------
ABSOLUTEY CORRECT – video 2 is why the threat of satan and hell is an empty message No connection to the Hebrew Prosecutor at all No connection to Hebrew satan at all No connection to Jewish devils / satanas / shedim at all
Judaism is focused upon God – witnessing for God – living for God – God Centric – praising God If you are doing these things – all the rest God takes care of for you I CANNOT MAKE or FORCE GOD TO SAVE ME – all I can do is serve God and He will judge me fairly for it
Experience what real Judaism is like YES – God kills and destroys nations
Psalm 135 Song - Israel As His Possession 4:29 min
Your Name, O Lord, Endures Forever Psa 135:1 (ASV) Praise ye Jehovah. Praise ye the name of Jehovah; Praise him, O ye servants of Jehovah, Psa 135:2 Ye that stand in the house of Jehovah, In the courts of the house of our God. Psa 135:3 Praise ye Jehovah; for Jehovah is good: Sing praises unto his name; for it is pleasant. Psa 135:4 For Jehovah hath chosen Jacob unto himself, And Israel for his own possession. Psa 135:5 For I know that Jehovah is great, And that our Lord is above all gods. Psa 135:6 Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath he done, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps; Psa 135:7 Who causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; Who maketh lightnings for the rain; Who bringeth forth the wind out of his treasuries; Psa 135:8 Who smote the first-born of Egypt, Both of man and beast; Psa 135:9 Who sent signs and wonders into the midst of thee, O Egypt, Upon Pharaoh, and upon all his servants; Psa 135:10 Who smote many nations, And slew mighty kings, Psa 135:11 Sihon king of the Amorites, And Og king of Bashan, And all the kingdoms of Canaan, Psa 135:12 And gave their land for a heritage, A heritage unto Israel his people. Psa 135:13 Thy name, O Jehovah, endureth for ever; Thy memorial name, O Jehovah, throughout all generations. Psa 135:14 For Jehovah will judge his people, And repent himself concerning his servants. Psa 135:15 The idols of the nations are silver and gold, The work of men's hands. Psa 135:16 They have mouths, but they speak not; Eyes have they, but they see not; Psa 135:17 They have ears, but they hear not; Neither is there any breath in their mouths. Psa 135:18 They that make them shall be like unto them; Yea, every one that trusteth in them. Psa 135:19 O house of Israel, bless ye Jehovah: O house of Aaron, bless ye Jehovah: Psa 135:20 O house of Levi, bless ye Jehovah: Ye that fear Jehovah, bless ye Jehovah. Psa 135:21 Blessed be Jehovah out of Zion, Who dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye Jehovah.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2022 17:16:49 GMT -5
Fourth round of discussions on "Does the OPPOSER oppose GOD"? or Is the Opposer a Prosecutor, oposing man only, thus a servant of God? -----------1.1---------------- R1 "Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? R2" Does God say Job is completely perfect in his salvation process? Y/N D2" Sure R2" Does the "hey-satan" oppose God's declaration? Y/N D2" NO – God asked His servant a question and the servant replied honestlyR3" I didn't think any creature could say a negation Dave, after all GOD said Job was perfectly saved and avoids RA all the time.
D3" How does satan negate God words – satan agreed that Job is righteous – because God is protecting Job"R4 " Show me where the Opposer agreed with God? Job 1:9 Doth Job fear God for nought? (negation) Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, (negation) Job 1:10 thou hast blessed the work of his hands, (negation) How do I know these references are negations? By the final twist of the this ARAM creature. But I am off topic now, because Dave does not consider this creature to be a twisting head. So I have to stick to the evidence at hand, the opposer is only a angel. Funny, there is no Scripture verse according to Dave this is an angel at all? Another topic. So this creature being a prosecutor is an assumption, because it's origin is unknown, according to Dave. Another discussion for another topic. How do I know these references are negations? By the replyJob 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Is this the function of a prosecutor? NO 1) a Prosecutor is not to tell a judge to make more opportunities for a criminal to become a criminal. 2) a Prosecutor is not to tell a judge to make harm the subjects of His kingdom, the judge is supposed to be kind, pure and good, impartial, NOT seek vengeance, and influence His subjects to sin more so the prosecutor can mock over the criminals failings. You are way off Dave in your assumptions. Now do you agree the Opposer was negating God's declaration of Job's salvation process? ------------1.2----------- R3" What cheek to oppose God's remarks about a human? And you say this is answering honestly?D3" All men are sinners – (Rom 5:12) why isn’t satan being honest with God?R4" No Dave, when the salvation process begins, the human is no longer a sinner, but declared sinless, and than slowly over time lives up to that declaration by becoming sinless every day. In the past all men became sinners, because of mischief by a mischief maker. We have yet to discuss who this mischief make is. But the human does not remain a sinner under the salvation process. Do you agree with me on this point? --------1.3---------- R3" If I said Job got 100% pass in his faith test, and the other person says no Job didn't, because you protect Job too much? Somebody is lying here? Either God is lying and Job didn't reach 100% or the oppose is lying and saying God is wrong, they cannot both be right, but you say the opposer was being honest? I do not see honest here?D3" They are both correct – Job is righteous – because God is protecting Job With God’s protection – of course Job is perfect Satan just says – would Job be if the hedge was removed?R4" You completely misunderstand what salvation process is. When you are saved of course you can claim whatever faith promises you wish, and one of those faith promises is the ability to hedge yourself from the darts of the shedim. Do I need to list the prayer faith promises, any straight person can claim? God is a wall, a buckler and shield God will show you a way out God will not allow a temptation greater than you can handle Resist the Opposer and He will flee God came to over throw the kingdom of the prince of the world God saw the opposer fall from heaven like lightning long ago God is my shepherd, I lack nothing Notice how Job sees the "hedge" Job 10:11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced "hedged" me with bones and sinews. 12 Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit. 13 And these things hast thou hid in thine heart: I know that this is with thee. 14 ¶ If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity. 15 If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction; 16 For it increaseth. Thou huntest me as a fierce lion: and again thou shewest thyself marvellous upon me. Job sees the hedge as our body of bones and muscles, protecting the heart, the emotions and the head of the mind, that sins or becomes wicked, that is hunted by God as a lion hunts, or as God is gracious upon those who seek Him. Notice how Hosea sees the "hedge" Ho 2:6 ¶ Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths. 7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.
In Hosea the hedge is a way to prevent humans from returning to their old shedim lovers of self, the worldly pleasures and the old ways of the flesh. What I see in both these accounts that are the same, is the "hedge" refers to our body, that either protects us, or harms us making us return to our old propensities. There are no other contexts using this Hebrew word. D3" They are both correct – Job is righteous – because God is protecting JobR4" Aren't humans allowed to freely choose prayer faith promises once they are restored and forgiven upon seeking God? so the human claims the protection of the hedge (the body that stops us following our old lovers, and protects and keeps the mind from sin) is a protective claim by the human seeking promises of faith, and GOD has to respond as well because GOD is also faithful to those who SEEK Him by faith. Job is protected because of His Faith, and thus GOD responds to that faithful request. Isn't this allowed in your view Dave? Isn't that what salvation is about? DO you agree that salvation protects us if we walk in salvation by faith? D3" With God’s protection – of course Job is perfectR4" Subtle twist Dave. The straight person freely seeks salvation who is God, and GOD protects the person because the person asks for protection via Faith in the Promises. DO you agree with this statement? D3" Satan just says – would Job be if the hedge was removed?R4" What question is that, if GOD was removed the Shedim would come back ? This challenge is given to God and God accepts. So GOD removes His faith powers to Job and Job is allowed to suffer the dictates of the shedim....but not only the shedim but also the powers of the chief prince of shedim, the Opposer stating the challenge. The challenge is , if a sinner is now sinless by his deeds and faithful living, can the shedim get the straight person to sin again, even though the body is still corrupted and not perfectly restored? God already knows the answer, but the attackers don't....This opposer is directly opposing God, asking God to do things to humans, that salvation does not normally require, to live a sinless life without God daily responding to your faith requests. ------------2.1------------ R3" Show me the text where GOD asks the angel to harm and kill all of Job's assets?D3" There is none – because that never happened – man killed Job’s childrenR4" So you agree with me that God never asked the angel to do any harm? So the harming must have come from the opposer Himself? DO you agree with this? ---------2.2---------- R3" Since when is a prosecutor angel allowed to harm and kill, this is outside of the function of a prosecutor angel, is it not?D3" Man killed Job’s children Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other manR4" You didn't answer my question, 1) if God didn't ask the angel to do any harm, you agree to this idea 2) therefore the Opposer asked to do harm, so the Opposer could harm Job 3) So by asking to do harm, the opposer is not a prosecutor? You claim only man did the harm because the hedge was removed. No so 4) fire fell from heaven, proves the Opposer was behind the harm, not humans directly Please discuss all 4 points. ---------------2.3----------- R3" Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.D3" God telling satan to go do his worst – why is it a sin to obey GodR4" Now you say GOD asked the Opposer to harm Job? Please make up your mind Dave. ------------2.4------------ D3" YES – angels obey God and do whatever God asks of themR4" Anything? why even a prophet refused to cook with human dung because it was against the law, so what makes you think an angel will violate the laws of God, if God asks the angels to violate His laws? God must obey His own laws, otherwise God is not unchangeable and a fair judge. The only creature wanting changes to the salvation process is the Opposer, not GOD. DO you agree with this statement. Therefore the Opposer is directly challenging God and opposing God. ----------2.5---------- R3" the prosecuting angel should not be concerned with God's hedging of Job, only about prosecuting Job of further sinning? I see a conflict of interest here, and your premise is wrong.... D3" Why shouldn’t the angel of the Lord be honest with the Lord?R4" you didn't answer the question, off track, we are talking about a prosecuting angel ? DO you agree that a prosecuting angel should NOT be concerned with the salvation process, only concerned with making God aware of sins in the humans? ----------2.6------------ D3" The opposer was sent off by God to oppose JobR4" I had to smile...weird Why would God seek sinners, respond to their request for salvation, respond to their faith request daily for power, give them power every say to live sinless living, and than just because a creature asks, agree to remove Himself from this love relationship and allow the straight person to feel alone, and thus experience " relationship death " ? You just stated "the prosecutor was sent to oppose Job" That is NOT a prosecutor's role to oppose Job in daily living, only to prosecute Job WHEN he sins, not help Job in sinning. You just goofed. A prosecutor should only oppose a human when the human is facing court judgement. Again you just goofed, no where is this scene mentioned as a court room judgement, You just stated your opposer is no prosecutor? You just stated your opposer is an attacker? --------3.1--------- R3" 1) What right has a prosecutor to challenge the salvation process of humans?D3" T hat is his job – DUH – to expose man of his sin – to accuse man of his sinR4" You have a reading problem Dave, I didn't say that. Sinning not mentioned here. I asked "What right has a prosecutor to challenge the salvation process of humans?" And your answer should be, correct a prosecutor has no right to change the terms of salvation, his job is only to prosecute sins. Now do you agree with me? This is just one point of many the opposer is not a prosecutor. ---------3.2-------- R3" 2) A prosecutor should only prosecute humans for sin, not get involved in helping humans sin more, and than prosecuting the human for sins, the prosecutor arranged to happen?D3" So you teach your satan should disobey God when told to go do his worst Why so you teach it st a sin to obey God?
R4" Dave a prosecutor only has one function, court room prosecutions.... now you are saying God can ask a prosecutor to harm humans, and it is not a sin for God to ask prosecutors to harm humans? This is contempt of court, makes God guilty of sin, makes God a evil monster. Bible says "God does not change" Dave says God never changes the functions of angels, or even the functions of His created creatures. Now I see Dave saying the functions of the angel can change. Try reading my words carefully Dave.... you are not listening to each discussion. Now I have never heard of a judge allowing the criminal on trial to go back into the world and than the judge sends in more ways to get the criminal convicted more of crimes later on in court. I have heard of corrupt police doing this to force convictions on a human charged of crimes he didn't do... ---------3.3------------- R3" I t is clear from the context the prosecuting angel is harming, or arranging others to harm Job and his assets.D3" All the scripture says the harm came from man Without the hedge – Job is just as vulnerable to the BEAST as any manR4" Fire came down from heaven, so the harm was not empowered by man at all, but from the opposer empowering the wicked men to seek Job? Do you agree with this idea? ---------3.4--------- R3" You cannot as you claim have God with a department that does His dirty work, and God not be guilty of the crimes others do. It doesn't work that way, its still a crime of association.D3" Y our warm and fuzzy Feel Good God is a myth - God ordered the hit upon Job – your satan obeyed God All God’s Plan – all God’s Will - to facilitate God’s Will upon earth - DUHR4" So God is a evil monster than according to you, God ordered the hit upon Job, makes God an evil monster? DO you agree with is a fair assessment of God according to your view? And if the opposer obeyed, than the prosecutor is no longer a prosecutor but an ATTACKER of humans as well. Do you agree God changed his functional role? Your comments are welcome. ------3.5--------- R3" Whoever harms Job, has to want to harm Job freely, not because God asks him to.D3" YES – that is what the BEAST doesR4" What? you just said the opposer was ordered by God to harm Job. Now you changed topics and stated the angel is a shedim. I thought the angel was different to shedim. Did you just goof again? This angel is a good angel, not a shedim/beast creature doing Shedim deeds. If God ordered the angel to change functional roles, because the prosecutor asks, proves the prosecutor is NOT a prosecutor. You state the prosecutor wants to harm Job freely, yet earlier that God ordered the harm. Can't be both. try again. Either the prosecutor is no prosecutor and asks for harming Job because that is what the opposer is; a natural prince shedim, not a good angel at all. And he asks God to remove the hedge so He can do what He does all the time harm humans so they sin more. -----3.6----- R3" if God asks him to harm Job, that would make God guilty of sin.D3 " Did Satan obey God – YESR4" God did not ask the Opposer to harm Job, you agreed. Now you back flip? The opposer only agreed to limits on his powers. Why? Because God agreed to not fully remove the hedge, and was agreeable to the challenge of the Opposer. If the hedge was fully removed, Job would also have died. DO you agree with my comments? D3" Did satan kill Job – NOR4" Why didn't the Opposer kill Job? Because the hedge was protecting Him. God was not willing to leave Job unhedged fully. And the opposer agreed to God terms of the challenge. D3" Did satan obey God - YESR4" no more than Balaam agreed to bless Israel, and than later did what naturally comes to Balaam, to sin. The Opposer agreed to not kill Job, and couldn't anyway, because God protected Him. D3" Why do you teach it a sin to obey GodR4" You are assuming God ordered the hit upon Job. I do not agree. If God can change functions, than God is a liar too. and a sinner. I change not God says. Not a yud will be removed until all is fulfilled God says. His royal law is immutable and unchangeable even by God Himself. God cannot hate, God can only love and be loving. -------3.7----- R3" A hedge is used to protect humans from predators. Can I ask Dave, who are the predators in Job's story?D3" The Beast – the ancient serpent race – that we call devils and satanasR4" I agree, but why does a prosecutor, and a good angel, ask the Lord to drop his hedge to allow the Shedim attack Job again? The Shedim attacked Job all his life and Job seeks salvation. SO the request of the so called good angel is proof the angel is not a good angel at all. your premise is wrong. -----------4.1----------- D2" Your satan never harmed Job – man did R3" Really? How come God says "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"; What is meant by this statement?D3" IF you are saying God ordered your satan to harm Job – then why is it wrong for your satan to obey God? I am saying – without the hedge Job is as vulnerable to the BEAST as any manR4" Again Dave you didn't answer my question? I see the opposer as a prince SHEDIM not a good angel at all, and GOD is simply saying all that you are naturally as a sinning angel, is in your power, but since I have saved JOb from you already by faith, you are not allowed to remove Job from me. So the opposer agrees to the terms, because God is always in control of the Great Controversy. Now I asked you what this statement means, you have what I think it means. -----4.2---------- R3" Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, Where did this power of harm come from? Not from human source that's for sure... and certainly not from God, because God said "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power";D3" Why do you deny scripture – why do you rewrite scripture to fit your doctrine The fire of God = the fire of God – you need to change it into the fire of satan Why do you deny scripture – why do you rewrite scripture to fit your doctrineR4" you are deluded to think just because some human thinks the fire came from heaven, that is also came from God, the humans on earth do not know about the Great Controversy going on, they assume incorrectly. But you read the texts literally so if the Bible says this, and it's a human opinion, than is also true and inspired. All three of Job's friend blame the tragedies on Job due to his current sinning and or past sins, they do not see the Great Controversy in heaven either. Neither does Job, but he remains faithful. Dave don't you believe the Opposer can bring down fire from heaven? So all those years of worshipping Baal the god of lightning and thunder is a myth is it? No lightning lit the offering to the Opposer? I showed you the Bible texts already? No comments. Jesus said I saw the Opposer fall like lightning, a metaphor statement about the Opposer setting up BAAL, the hebrew word meaning Master, the false elohiym power wants to be Master of heaven. In Revelation the Opposer brings down lightning on call in front of TV camera too. R3" A sidetrack, sorry, but Baal was a god of thunder,D3" YES – Baal is just one of the 33 ‘other gods’ of the Levant – shedim – all of themR4" SO you agree that SHedim can bring down fire from heaven? D3" Why do you deny scripture – why do you rewrite scripture to fit your doctrineR4" I am not rewriting Scripture, only reading the context correctly. R3" So from this evidence, the Opposer must have caused this. Do you agree?D3" All God’s Plan – all God’s Will – your satan only obeys GodR4" you didn't answer my question Dave. You should have said, no I don't agree, the fire from heaven came from God, not the prosecutor. The prosecutor asked God to harm Job and so God did harm Job. DO you agree with my assessment of your correct response Dave? If that is you answer Dave, than the prosecutor has changed functional roles God is a murderer, destroying Job's children God is a moral monster, planning destruction because He wants to. God is no longer a God of love and salvation, God can also end your salvation in a cruel sword event or a natural disaster on God's call. God plans and does all the evil and design intentionally, though God has a department for the really bad things, like His SHEDIM, they do the evil, God created them for this purpose. If God sees a little sparrow fall , how much love does God have for humans who fall? None according to Dave view of God. You can have a sinless Job one day and all the children are killed by God just because a prosecuting angel asked... My God is not like that Dave. My God is love and loving at all times. ---------5.1---------- R3" So are you admitting the prosecutor works with shedim? Isn't this a conflict of interest?D3" Let me explain - Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man - DUHR4" you did not answer my question Dave. Is a prosecutor allowed to help SHEDIM do SHEDIM stuff? My answer is NO !!!!!! a conflict of interest to do so, guilty crimes by doing so.... proof your angel is no prosecutor? Answer the questions Dave. Isn't this a conflict of interest? Is a prosecutor allowed to help SHEDIM do SHEDIM stuff? ------5.2----- R3" But why is the prosecuting angel tied to shedim? Please answer.D3" Let me explain - Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man – DUHR4" you did not answer my question Dave. -------5.3--------- R3" God did not want Job harmed.... God's hedge is there to keep shedim away.D3" CORRECT – satan’s answer to God – of course Job is righteous because your hedge keeps the shedim away – why do you teach is is a sin for your satan to honest with GodR4" Nobody is straight because of a hedge, you are introducing salvation comes only from God by God and that man does nothing and can you nothing to respond. Gods love provides, but man must respond to that love, or the salvation is uncompleted. The response of man must be by faith, and God further responds as Man provides love by faith, by making the hedge stronger. So the hedge is a response of GOD to man via Faith responding to GODIf you remove the hedge entirely, man's faith response is not returned and God is a liar, so GOD cannot completely remove His hedge of love. Otherwise God is faithless, but God is faithful. Because the opposer is making this request it really shows how much of an opposer directly to God, the opposer is. Imagine a man coming to Dave and saying stop loving your wife and she will curse you to your face? Imagine the inside opposition to this request, and the evil demands it suggests, is this a fair request? No it is a unfair request to break of loving somebody just because somebody asks you. The man suggests by doing this the love relationship will be stronger? Is this worth the risk? How would it be stronger? And why would it matter, love is love at any level, is good.... Love at any level of experience is good, there is no need for higher and deeper levels of love, one can find perfect bliss in the simplest experiences of love and being loved. Your theories based on Job about removing Gods hedge of love is wrong. ---5.4---- R3" SO why would a prosecutor want the hedge removed? thus allow shedim to attack Job?D3" To answer the question – would Job curse God without it? - DUHR4" A straight person does not need Shedim to make him become crooked again, a straight person can become crooked all by himself. By simply stopping to speak faith words, the person becomes crooked again and his power from God decrease and his human powers of SELF increase. The hedge is daily there in response to the faith requests of the supporter of God, got nothing to do with Shedim. What the opposer was asking God to do was become less faithful to Job... and that is really showing the Opposer is opposing GOD. DO you agree with this idea ? ----------5.6--------- D3" The prosecutor is NOT the BEAST – he is an angel of the Lord in service to the LordR4" Well done Dave. I agree since this is your view. SO why is the good angel requesting God to become less faithful to Job, thus the hedge is weakened allowing the SHEDIM attack? Such a thing by an angel is a sin, is it not? ---------6.1----------- R3" That suggests God is nit picking tyrant over every sin we do against him, not a really good God, wanting us to be successful ?D3" YES – God is picky over sin – Even only sinned once – and is pissed God off God’s judgment is absolute – you are guilty and we will all pay for our sins - or you are awarded a Divine PardonR4" I don't get it? If God wants us to be successful over sin, why the nit picking of sin? Does Scripture say there us a sin NOT unto death? This proves God overlook many sins and focus on the sinner becoming more faithful, not less sinning as you claim. Hence I do not see the need for some nit picking sin investigator as you claim. And besides asking God to be less faithful to Job is evidence the request did not come from a loving good angel, the creature obviously wants Job to sin more. But why? hasn't Job sinned enough? Your nit picking sin investigator is not loving God and loving the humans at all, the end goal is to make the humans love God, isn't it? SO your premise of the nit picking sin investigator is wrong, he is opposing God directly, even telling God to be less faithful to Job, thus weaken the hedge of faith. -----6.2---- R3" Enoch was so perfect Enoch walked right into heaven. Maybe Job is like Enoch.D3" YES – God loves the Prodigal Son – Rewards in heavenR4" OK so why is Enoch loved but Job isn't loved. Why the difference? Same God interested in our love and His love towards us. R3" What I don't get is why have an angel is negating God's happiness and his declaration of salvation.D3" Why is it a sin for the angel of the Lord to be totally honest with God?R4" Again you didn't answer my question. ------6.3----- R3" There are no angels negating God's handiwork or suggesting a little more color or a little more shadow, they just shout for joy. I assume all the angels do.D3" YES – angels serve and praise – no angel ever changed his form or function on his own – then changed all of God’s Plan against God’s Will – absolutely ridiculesR4" OK so how come this angel in JOB changes function and asks GOD to weaken His faith towards JOB so the Shedim can attack Job more? -----6.4----- R3" 1) Why aren't the shedim mentioned in Job than?D3" BOOM – grasp the message of the text The ahl/OT is all about the NATION - (God’s chosen people) – the shedim had names – Baal, Molech., Dogon, Chermush, etc – 33 of them in totalR4" I propose the prince SHEDIM is in JOB, BOOK grasp the message of the text. and this prince SHEDIM is a sinning angel, opposing GOD directly, but has to trim his powers when God is challenged because God is always in control. I answered the question Dave, but your answer is weak. if you agree the SHEDIM are in JOB, than the opposer must be a prince shedim. DO you agree with me? ---------6.5----- R3" 3) If God wants humans to experience both good and evil and become successful seeking God in faith,D3" Correct – but I will say it differently God loves you and misses you – God wants to be close to you – but the only way it is true love is for God to let you go into the wildernessR4" Your view negates sin and RA, instead you see these as only an inclination in the world, not from an agent intentionally sinning so He gets you to sin also. ---------6.6---------- D3" The role of the Hebrew prosecutor is to PROTECT GOD’s KINGDOM - No sinners allowedR4" That idea is WRONG. 1Jo 5:16 I f any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.These verse among many teach that not all sinning is viewed equally by God, and many faults and ignorance things are overlooked by God who is kind, not wanting anybody to perish. Grace is a gift of GOD that overrides the need for a nit picking sin investigator. We are to fight the good fight of faith, also mentioned in the above verses, not try to overcome every trespass we do. The above verse also bring into focus a "wicked one" touches us not. Who can this be? The subject of this discussion is to discover the opposer is the prince SHEDIM and this wicked one mentioned here and all throught out Scripture, the one with the twisting head, subtle sinner who deceives people with the truth even. A father of lies. Dave says " The role of the Hebrew prosecutor is to PROTECT GOD’s KINGDOM - No sinners allowed"Rob replies, "No sinning is allowed, saved sinners are allowed as longer as they never sin again. This firebrand plucked from the fire is a free will choice, not based on previous sinnings, or a list of sins, but upon the free will to choose God, and this is a attitude no angel can read or witness about, so being saved by grace negates the role of a prosecutor, so I find your claim laughable and it hurts, because it suggests grace does not exist with God. ----6.7---- D3" ABSOLUTEY CORRECT – video 2 is why the threat of satan and hell is an empty message No connection to the Hebrew Prosecutor at all No connection to Hebrew satan at all No connection to Jewish devils / satanas / shedim at all Judaism is focused upon God – witnessing for God – living for God – God Centric – praising God If you are doing these things – all the rest God takes care of for you I CANNOT MAKE or FORCE GOD TO SAVE ME – all I can do is serve God and He will judge me fairly for itR4" So if I serve God and praise God and do his requirements, why does GOD order a hit upon Job? What did Job do to deserve this?-----6.8------ R3" Your so called prosecutor is not kind, nor graciousD3" – not his jobR4" so a good angel is allowed to be unkind, evil and murder intent, not gracious.... I have never met prosecutors who are like you claim, they are loving people outside the court room ------------nice touch with a song at the end of your discussion Dave----- Now our discussing is getting bigger. Nearly 4 hours of listening to you.... Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 29, 2022 23:07:51 GMT -5
We just had a good discussion on the other thread - then you post this
-----------1.1---------------- D3" How does satan negate God words – satan agreed that Job is righteous – because God is protecting Job "R4 " Show me where the Opposer agreed with God?
Job 1:8 Adonai said to the satan, “Did you notice my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth—a blameless and upright man, who fears God and spurns evil.” Job 1:9 Then the satan responded to Adonai, saying, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Job 1:10 Have you not made a hedge around him, his household, and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands and his possessions have increased in the land. Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!”
Funny, there is no Scripture verse according to Dave this is an angel at all? Another topic. So this creature being a prosecutor is an assumption, because it's origin is unknown, according to Dave. Another discussion for another topic. What a bunch of Robert imagination – Hebrew stan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Is this the function of a prosecutor? NO Who is stretching out their hand against Job in this verse – God is
Now do you agree the Opposer was negating God's declaration of Job's salvation process? Why do you think is a sin for an angel to be honest with God?
There is a spoiled rich kid – never been hungry a single day in his life (hedge) What proof is there that after starving for a week this kid would not steal bread Answer – no proof – because that test never came up
------------1.2----------- R3" What cheek to oppose God's remarks about a human? And you say this is answering honestly? D3" All men are sinners – (Rom 5:12) why isn’t satan being honest with God? R4" No Dave, Which – scripture is wrong that all men are sinners? Why is it a sin to quote scripture?
But the human does not remain a sinner under the salvation process. Do you agree with me on this point? You are totally free to sin right up till the moment of your mortal death – DUH If this wasn’t true – you would NOT teach that you can lose your salvation Do you believe yourself – which doctrine is truly yours?
D3" With God’s protection – of course Job is perfect R4" Subtle twist Dave. The straight person freely seeks salvation who is God, and GOD protects the person because the person asks for protection via Faith in the Promises. DO you agree with this statement? You are totally free to sin right up till the moment of your mortal death – DUH If this wasn’t true – you would NOT teach that you can lose your salvation Do you believe yourself – which doctrine is truly yours?
D3"Satan just says – would Job be if the hedge was removed? R4" What question is that, if GOD was removed the Shedim would come back ?
There is a spoiled rich kid – never been hungry a single day in his life (hedge) What proof is there that after starving for a week this kid would not steal bread Answer – no proof – because that test never came up
This challenge is given to God and God accepts. So GOD removes His faith powers to Job and Job is allowed to suffer the dictates of the shedim YES – without the hedge of protection – Job was just as vulnerable to the shedim as any man
------------2.1------------ R3" Show me the text where GOD asks the angel to harm and kill all of Job's assets? D3" There is none – because that never happened – man killed Job’s children R4" So you agree with me that God never asked the angel to do any harm? So the harming must have come from the opposer Himself? DO you agree with this? YES – without the hedge of protection – Job was just as vulnerable to the shedim as any man
---------2.2---------- R3" Since when is a prosecutor angel allowed to harm and kill, this is outside of the function of a prosecutor angel, is it not? D3" Man killed Job’s children Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other man R4" You didn't answer my question, The prosecuting angle did not kill anyone – man did
---------------2.3----------- R3" Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. D3" God telling satan to go do his worst – why is it a sin to obey God R4" Now you say GOD asked the Opposer to harm Job? Please make up your mind Dave. DUH – the only thing the prosecutor can do is accuse Job od error/sin Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other man
----------2.5---------- R3" the prosecuting angel should not be concerned with God's hedging of Job, only about prosecuting Job of further sinning? I see a conflict of interest here, and your premise is wrong.... D3" Why shouldn’t the angel of the Lord be honest with the Lord? R4" you didn't answer the question, off track, we are talking about a prosecuting angel ? YES – I am talking about the prosecuting angel – why is it a sin to be honest with the Lord
There is a spoiled rich kid – never been hungry a single day in his life (hedge) What proof is there that after starving for a week this kid would not steal bread Answer – no proof – because that test never came up
----------2.6------------ D3" The opposer was sent off by God to oppose Job R4" I had to smile...weird You just stated "the prosecutor was sent to oppose Job"
Job 1:12 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Everything he has is in your hand. Only do not extend your hand against him!”
DUH – the only thing the prosecutor can do is accuse Job of error/sin Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other man
--------3.1--------- R3" 1) What right has a prosecutor to challenge the salvation process of humans? D3" That is his job – DUH – to expose man of his sin – to accuse man of his sin R4" You have a reading problem Dave, I didn't say that. Sinning not mentioned here.
I asked "What right has a prosecutor to challenge the salvation process of humans?" SIN is the only challenge to our salvation
And your answer should be, correct a prosecutor has no right to change the terms of salvation, his job is only to prosecute sins.
DUH – the only thing the prosecutor can do is accuse Job od error/sin Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other man
---------3.2-------- R4" Dave a prosecutor only has one function, court room prosecutions.... now you are saying God can ask a prosecutor to harm humans, - NEVER HAPPENED
and it is not a sin for God to ask prosecutors to harm humans? – NEVER HAPPENED
---------3.3------------- R3" It is clear from the context the prosecuting angel is harming, or arranging others to harm Job and his assets. D3" All the scripture says the harm came from man Without the hedge – Job is just as vulnerable to the BEAST as any man R4" Fire came down from heaven, so the harm was not empowered by man at all, but from the opposer empowering the wicked men to seek Job? Do you agree with this idea?
Job 1:16 While this one was still speaking another came in and said, “The fire of God has fallen from heaven and has burned up the sheep and servants—it has consumed them, and I—I alone—escaped to tell you!”
The fire came from God – NOT you satan
---------3.4--------- R3" You cannot as you claim have God with a department that does His dirty work, and God not be guilty of the crimes others do. It doesn't work that way, its still a crime of association. D3" Your warm and fuzzy Feel Good God is a myth - God ordered the hit upon Job – your satan obeyed God All God’s Plan – all God’s Will - to facilitate God’s Will upon earth - DUH R4" So God is a evil monster than according to you, God ordered the hit upon Job, makes God an evil monster? DO you agree with is a fair assessment of God according to your view?
All your talk of Torah – yet you do NOT know it
Psa 135:8 He struck down the firstborn of Egypt, both man and beast. Psa 135:9 He sent signs and wonders among you, O Egypt, on Pharaoh and all his servants. Psa 135:10 He struck down many nations and slew mighty kings: Psa 135:11 Sihon, king of the Amorites, and Og, king of Bashan, and all the kingdoms of Canaan, Psa 135:12 and gave their land as an inheritance, an inheritance to His people Israel.
R4" So God is a evil monster than according to scripture God is NOT bound by the 10 Commandments – God kills and causes harm – to facilitate His Will on earth
And if the opposer obeyed, than the prosecutor is no longer a prosecutor but an ATTACKER of humans as well. Do you agree God changed his functional role?
Hebrew satan is NOT the Beast The Beast is NOT Hebrew satan You just mix them together to make it a confusing mess
------3.5--------- R3" Whoever harms Job, has to want to harm Job freely, not because God asks him to. D3" YES – that is what the BEAST does R4" What? you just said the opposer was ordered by God to harm Job. Now you changed topics and stated the angel is a shedim. Without the hedge – Job is just as vulnerable to the BEAST as any man
D3" Did satan kill Job – NO R4" Why didn't the Opposer kill Job? Because the hedge was protecting Him. The hedge was removed
D3" Why do you teach it a sin to obey God R4" You are assuming God ordered the hit upon Job. I do not agree. Without the hedge – Job is just as vulnerable to the BEAST as any man
-------3.7----- R3" A hedge is used to protect humans from predators. Can I ask Dave, who are the predators in Job's story? D3" The Beast – the ancient serpent race – that we call devils and satanas R4" I agree, but why does a prosecutor, and a good angel, ask the Lord to drop his hedge to allow the Shedim attack Job again? The Shedim attacked Job all his life and Job seeks salvation. SO the request of the so called good angel is proof the angel is not a good angel at all. your premise is wrong.
-----------4.1----------- D2" Your satan never harmed Job – man did R3" Really? How come God says "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"; What is meant by this statement? D3" IF you are saying God ordered your satan to harm Job – then why is it wrong for your satan to obey God? I am saying – without the hedge Job is as vulnerable to the BEAST as any man R4" Again Dave you didn't answer my question?
I see the opposer as a prince SHEDIM not a good angel at all
Hebrew satan is NOT the Beast The Beast is NOT Hebrew satan You just mix them together to make it a confusing mess
-----4.2---------- R3" Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, Where did this power of harm come from? Not from human source that's for sure... and certainly not from God, because God said "Behold, all that he hath is in thy power"; D3" Why do you deny scripture – why do you rewrite scripture to fit your doctrine The fire of God = the fire of God – you need to change it into the fire of satan Why do you deny scripture – why do you rewrite scripture to fit your doctrine R4" you are deluded to think just because some human thinks the fire came from heaven, that is also came from God,
" Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, Fire of God – why do you deny scripture
Dave don't you believe the Opposer can bring down fire from heaven? So all those years of worshipping Baal the god of lightning and thunder is a myth is it? Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord Baal is a shedim – an archon – from the Beast of Revelation You just mix them together to make it a confusing mess
R3" A sidetrack, sorry, but Baal was a god of thunder, D3" YES – Baal is just one of the 33 ‘other gods’ of the Levant – shedim – all of them R4" SO you agree that SHedim can bring down fire from heaven? Sure – King Solomon told us the shedim can manipulate nature – wind/rain/ fertility
God is a murderer, destroying Job's children God is a moral monster, planning destruction because He wants to. God is no longer a God of love and salvation, God can also end your salvation in a cruel sword event or a natural disaster on God's call.
You can whine and lament all you want to – your idea of a Feel Good God that never causes any harm is error
Psa 135:8 He struck down the firstborn of Egypt, both man and beast. Psa 135:9 He sent signs and wonders among you, O Egypt, on Pharaoh and all his servants. Psa 135:10 He struck down many nations and slew mighty kings: Psa 135:11 Sihon, king of the Amorites, and Og, king of Bashan, and all the kingdoms of Canaan, Psa 135:12 and gave their land as an inheritance, an inheritance to His people Israel.
My God is not like that Dave. My God is love and loving at all times. Why do you deny scripture in favor of a man-made doctrine
---------5.1---------- R3" So are you admitting the prosecutor works with shedim? Isn't this a conflict of interest? D3" Let me explain - Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man - DUH R4" you did not answer my question Dave. Let me explain - Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man – DUH
Is a prosecutor allowed to help SHEDIM do SHEDIM stuff? My answer is NO !!!!!! a conflict of interest to do so, guilty crimes by doing so.... proof your angel is no prosecutor? There is no scripture here suggesting that Hebrew satan worked with the shedim There is no scripture here suggesting that satan and the shedim had any contact at all Except your assumption Let me explain - Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man - DUH
-------5.3--------- R3" God did not want Job harmed.... God's hedge is there to keep shedim away. D3" CORRECT – satan’s answer to God – of course Job is righteous because your hedge keeps the shedim away – why do you teach is is a sin for your satan to honest with God R4" Nobody is straight because of a hedge
There is a spoiled rich kid – never been hungry a single day in his life (hedge) What proof is there that after starving for a week this kid would not steal bread Answer – no proof – because that test never came up
---5.4---- R3" SO why would a prosecutor want the hedge removed? thus allow shedim to attack Job? D3" To answer the question – would Job curse God without it? - DUH R4" A straight person does not need Shedim to make him become crooked again, a straight person can become crooked all by himself.
There is a spoiled rich kid – never been hungry a single day in his life (hedge) What proof is there that after starving for a week this kid would not steal bread Answer – no proof – because that test never came up
-----6.2---- R3" Enoch was so perfect Enoch walked right into heaven. Maybe Job is like Enoch. D3" YES – God loves the Prodigal Son – Rewards in heaven R4" OK so why is Enoch loved but Job isn't loved. Why the difference? Same God interested in our love and His love towards us.
Gnostic answer – Enoch was chosen by God for a purpose Job was chosen for a different purpose Moses was chosen for a different purpose Jonah was chosen for a different purpose
------6.3----- R3" There are no angels negating God's handiwork or suggesting a little more color or a little more shadow, they just shout for joy. I assume all the angels do. D3" YES – angels serve and praise – no angel ever changed his form or function on his own – then changed all of God’s Plan against God’s Will – absolutely ridicules R4" OK so how come this angel in JOB changes function and asks GOD to weaken His faith towards JOB so the Shedim can attack Job more?
There is a spoiled rich kid – never been hungry a single day in his life (hedge) What proof is there that after starving for a week this kid would not steal bread Answer – no proof – because that test never came up
----6.7---- D3" ABSOLUTEY CORRECT – video 2 is why the threat of satan and hell is an empty message No connection to the Hebrew Prosecutor at all No connection to Hebrew satan at all No connection to Jewish devils / satanas / shedim at all Judaism is focused upon God – witnessing for God – living for God – God Centric – praising God If you are doing these things – all the rest God takes care of for you I CANNOT MAKE or FORCE GOD TO SAVE ME – all I can do is serve God and He will judge me fairly for it
R4" So if I serve God and praise God and do his requirements, why does GOD order a hit upon Job? What did Job do to deserve this? Answer – he was upright and blameless
Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Jas 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Mat 10:16 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
Mat 10:22 And you will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end shall be saved. Mat 10:23 Whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next. Amen, I tell you, you will never finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Mat 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple to become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
Gnostic answer
The Apocryphon of James But I answered and said to him, "Lord, we can obey you if you wish, for we have forsaken our fathers and our mothers and our villages, and followed you. Grant us, therefore, not to be tempted by the devil, the evil one." The Lord answered and said, "What is your merit if you do the will of the Father and it is not given to you from him as a gift while you are tempted by Satan? But if you are oppressed by Satan, and persecuted, and you do his (i.e., the Father's) will, I say that he will love you, and make you equal with me, and reckon you to have become beloved through his providence by your own choice.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2022 16:45:56 GMT -5
Fifth discussion on "does the Opposer oppose GOD "? Or Is this "Opposer really a good angel doing a bad job of prosecuting humans over their sins"? -------1.1---------- D4" Who is stretching out their hand against Job in this verse – God isR5" Can't you read Scripture? But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. You are reading this that GOD puts forth His hand and GOD harms Job, so GOD wants JOB to curse GOD back? We know this is not what the verse is saying because .... Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: So if GOD responded to JOB's prayer requesting the salvation process of LOVE, why would you suppose GOD who now want JOB to HATE GOD, which is what curse is, the opposite of bless? So your understanding of this verse is wrong. The OPPOSER is merely stating where His powers come from and asking GOD to relax His loving hedge a little so the Opposer can harm Job and make Job curse God with some sins. That make more sense and explains why we have the hey-OPPOSER Hebrew word here in the first place, some creature has to oppose. But Dave has no creature in this passage opposing God, than explain to me why the Hebrew word "oppose" is there to begin with? D4" Why do you think is a sin for an angel to be honest with God?R5" Are you DULL? Asking GOD to love LESS, so JOB hates GOD, is a SINNING QUESTION, is it NOT?How is SINNING being honest to GOD? Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Dave a good angel, even if given the prosecuting task of recording sins, still has to NOT SIN himself and thus make true question, edify GOD, encourage GOD in HIs Love process, praise GOD, and not go around asking GOD to tempt humans to curse GOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are way off the track. You are so way off track, you even think GOD does not have to obey His own laws? D4" There is a spoiled rich kid – never been hungry a single day in his life (hedge) What proof is there that after starving for a week this kid would not steal bread Answer – no proof – because that test never came upR5" Are you dull? How many times did this OPPOSER attack JOB making Him Sin every day? That is what the OPPOSER does, He is opposing salvation, NOT processing salvation sins. Again understand the purpose of why the Hebrew word "oppose" is there about Him. This creature OPPOSES salvation, which is connected to both humans and GOD. The creature would have attacked JOB all his life, so your "lack of testing idea" is bogus. Just as He arranged to have all Job's children murdered. -------1.2------ D" You are totally free to sin right up till the moment of your mortal death – DUH If this wasn’t true – you would NOT teach that you can lose your salvation Do you believe yourself – which doctrine is truly yours? R" Again you do not answer my question, you beat around the bush. Of course a Christian under salvation can choose to sin, but they don't, DUH So my question was"D3" All men are sinners – (Rom 5:12) why isn’t satan being honest with God?R4" No Dave, when the salvation process begins, the human is no longer a sinner, but declared sinless, and than slowly over time lives up to that declaration by becoming sinless every day. In the past all men became sinners, because of mischief by a mischief maker. We have yet to discuss who this mischief make is. But the human does not remain a sinner under the salvation process. Do you agree with me on this point? And what does Dave quote me saying ? R4" No Dave, Which – scripture is wrong that all men are sinners? D4" Why is it a sin to quote scripture? R5" Notice Dave you do quote me correctly, nor did you answer my question. Why didn't you answer my question? Please answer my question on this discussion point. " the human does not remain a sinner under the salvation process". Do you agree with me on this point? Another way of saying this, under God's salvation of love, human sinning gets less. Do you agree with me on this point? Please read and quote my discussion correctly and answer my discussion, not fly off at tangents. RP" The straight person freely seeks salvation who is God, and GOD protects the person because the person asks for protection via Faith in the Promises. DO you agree with this statement? D4" You are totally free to sin right up till the moment of your mortal death – DUH If this wasn’t true – you would NOT teach that you can lose your salvation Do you believe yourself – which doctrine is truly yours?R5" Dave you AGAIN did not answer my question? The straight person freely seeks salvation who is God, and GOD protects the person because the person asks for protection via Faith in the Promises. DO you agree with this statement? D"T here is a spoiled rich kid – never been hungry a single day in his life (hedge) What proof is there that after starving for a week this kid would not steal bread Answer – no proof – because that test never came upR" Such a test is outside of faith, that is NOT how faith works. GOD does not tempt humans. God might test humans, so make sure the humans pray faith requests. But the human is always free to choose what faith requests He wishes to make. For example, God was leading Israel to a dry place, should have had the people on their knees asking God for water in faith. But instead they grumbled and spoke sinning to GOD, they did NOT speak a faith request, they chose to react under the human powers of SELF, which is a SIN to do so. God is not going to make the suggestions for prayer faith requests. Nor does one have to experience every possible RA in order to experience love. Your premise is wrong? DO you know what I am saying here? RP" So GOD removes His faith powers to Job and Job is allowed to suffer the dictates of the shedimD" YES – without the hedge of protection – Job was just as vulnerable to the shedim as any man
R5" We agree here. Wow, but you only answer correctly when I follow your view. Question: Why does GOD remove his LOVE-HEDGE from JOB? My challenge to you is, you cannot answer that question, where as I can, another topic. ---------2.1-------- R3" Show me the text where GOD asks the angel to harm and kill all of Job's assets? D3" There is none – because that never happened – man killed Job’s children R4" So you agree with me that God never asked the angel to do any harm? So the harming must have come from the opposer Himself? DO you agree with this?D4" YES – without the hedge of protection – Job was just as vulnerable to the shedim as any manR5" DAVE you did not answer my question, you beat around the bush, fly at tangents and strain gnats out of pickles, what is your problem? Can't you read? Your stem response " YES" indicates you agree, but your stem " without the hedge of protection " tells the reader you didn't agree. Are you subtle at beating around the bush, two face, mouse water reply is that. Sorry for the idioms but I am frustrated with your communication process. You should have said " Yes the harming came from the Opposer HImself." or " No, the harming did not come from the Opposer, but because GOD relaxed the hedge of protection allowing the shedim to attack, though I do understand the good angel is making this strange request to God, perhaps this good angel was trying to prosecute Job for sins under a different light, future sins perhaps?" That would be a further discussion Dave. Firstly the question has got nothing to do with hedge or Shedim, its a question about Opposer.Try to answer the questions Dave. R5" R4" So you agree with me that God never asked the angel to do any harm? So the harming must have come from the opposer Himself? DO you agree with this? (Make your answer about OPPOSER, not hedge or Shedim) -------2.2------- R3" Since when is a prosecutor angel allowed to harm and kill, this is outside of the function of a prosecutor angel, is it not? D3" Man killed Job’s children Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other manR4" You didn't answer my question, D4" The prosecuting angle did not kill anyone – man didR3" Is a prosecutor angel allowed to make a suggestion outside of the function of a prosecutor angel? His role is to prosecute sins? Not arrange for others to harm Job? Please try to answer the questions given to you Dave? You have now TWICE not answered my question. -------2.3----- R3" Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. D3" God telling satan to go do his worst – why is it a sin to obey God R4" Now you say GOD asked the Opposer to harm Job? Please make up your mind Dave.D4" DUH – the only thing the prosecutor can do is accuse Job od error/sin Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other manR5" You are NOT answering my discussions, this is not a discussion Dave. The question was " Now you say GOD asked the Opposer to harm Job? " And Daves reply was " the only thing the prosecutor can do is accuse Job of error/sin" That my friend is NOT answering the question. Your answer should be " Yes God asked the good angel to make arrangements with the shedim to attack Job" or " No, God did not ask for this attack, the opposer asked, and only sought God for permission to remove the hedge once more, so the opposer attacked Job and got the shedim to help him, since the opposer is a prince shedim" Instead Dave replies the prosecutor can only prosecute sins in Job. OK so why did this prosecutor make the questions of negation to God in the first place? Really Dave can't you follow a discussion line? Please go back to discuss the line of thinking in this 2.3 thread. -----2.5--------- R3" the prosecuting angel should not be concerned with God's hedging of Job, only about prosecuting Job of further sinning? I see a conflict of interest here, and your premise is wrong.... D3" Why shouldn’t the angel of the Lord be honest with the Lord? R4" you didn't answer the question, off track, we are talking about a prosecuting angel ?D4" YES – I am talking about the prosecuting angel – why is it a sin to be honest with the Lord
There is a spoiled rich kid – never been hungry a single day in his life (hedge) What proof is there that after starving for a week this kid would not steal bread Answer – no proof – because that test never came upR5" Dave you really cannot discuss can you? You should have said, " the good angel is following his role of prosecuting JOb for sins, even future sinning, that's why he askes GOD to lower His LOVE-Hedge, so the potential for futher sinning might come about from the shedim attacking Him, Thus is this an extension of the role of the good angel seeking prosecutions for sins". ANd my reply would be, this is not the role of a prosecutor to suggest changes to the law, so that sins come from changes to the law. Removing the LOVE HEDGE is a violation of faith, so the good angel is asking the changes of the law of salvation to be made so the sinner sins more in the future. Such changes to the salvation system cannot be suggested by any creature, even if in a role of recording sins in humans. God does not change. Yet we see the prosecuting angel asking God to change. Hence this opposer is no good angel at all, but a sinning angel, asking God to change His laws just this once. Why is God willing to do this? Because God is on trial by the sinning angel, that God is unjust and unfair. If a sinner can be saved from sinning, how is this fair and just? The mischief maker is trying to save his own neck, seeing he caused mischief and sees the death penalty for his own SINNING in getting Eve to sin. That is why the Opposer opposes God salvation love-hedge. -----2.6----- D3" The opposer was sent off by God to oppose Job R4" I had to smile...weird You just stated "the prosecutor was sent to oppose Job"D4" Job 1:12 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Everything he has is in your hand. Only do not extend your hand against him!”
DUH – the only thing the prosecutor can do is accuse Job of error/sin Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other manR5" NOT answered my question Dave. AGAIN. You just posted " Opposer everything is in the Opposers hand, only do not extend the Opposers hand against my Job (my hedge is lowered because the Opposer asked me to)" You just stated " the prosecutor was sent to oppose Job" AGAIN But than you see this as a prosecutor prosecuting sins? Hardly, what sins, not happened yet, more like attacking Job so Job sins is more like it. Your good angel is no good angel at all, more like an opposer, hating God. Any creature that asks God to remove His love-Hedge is a God hater. Got nothing to do with prosecuting sins of the future. What cheek, so the good angel can predict the future and it allowed to prosecute sins of the future too? Because that is what this good angel is asking.... DO you agree with this Dave? ------3.1----------- R3" 1) What right has a prosecutor to challenge the salvation process of humans? D3" That is his job – DUH – to expose man of his sin – to accuse man of his sinR4" You have a reading problem Dave, I didn't say that. Sinning not mentioned here. I asked " What right has a prosecutor to challenge the salvation process of humans?" D4" SIN is the only challenge to our salvationR5" what a pithy, nit gnat brevity brief Discussion this is Dave? Salvation is about reducing our daily sinning, past sins are forgiven and present sins are reduced because the humans is allowed to pray faith requests and GOD responds, thus the sinning of the humans are reduced because of the faith request responds with God's power.
So salvation is more about FAITH than sin. Sin is only a fruit of the humans NOT praying faith requests. Do you agree with my assessment of salvation Dave, that salvation is more about FAITH than it is about sinning and sins past and present? D" DUH – the only thing the prosecutor can do is accuse Job od error/sinR" OK so why did the good angel make changes to the salvation process, asking GOD to respond poorly to Job prayer faith requests? Now God is no longer faithful, but faithless? La 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. GOD promises to respond correctly to every amanuah request humans make. Your so called good angel had no right to spoil this salvation process. But He did because the hebrew word "opposer" tells you the creature is opposing the faith system of God loving sinners. Try to discuss my logic, using my terms and words too, so I understand you are even thinking correctly and following this thread as I am thinking. Discussing is about thinking together on the same page, agree/disagree is the outcome, but no where do I get any hint you are thinking the same processes as I am thinking? Write words that you understand my thinking as well...than show why you disagree? OK learn to communicate... D" Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other manR" Outside of this thread, When a human prays a faith request, God responds. You are saying GOD can remove His hedge and thus GOD can become faithless. Just because somebody asked? Can a creature ask GOD to change? No. So who asked ? An opposer did. Hence the reason why the Hebrew word is used. ---------3.2------- R4" Dave a prosecutor only has one function, court room prosecutions.... now you are saying God can ask a prosecutor to harm humans, - D4" NEVER HAPPENEDR4" and it is not a sin for God to ask prosecutors to harm humans? – D4" NEVER HAPPENEDR5" Than you goofed Dave, saying God ordered a hit upon Job. God doesn't harm humans. God doesn't tempt humans to sin. You are correct, " it never happened"? SO this means the opposer is asking himself to attack Job ? Do you agree with my above statement following your responses? ------3.3----- D4" The fire came from God – NOT you satanR5" But you just said "n ow you are saying God can ask a prosecutor to harm humans?"- D4" NEVER HAPPENEDNow you are saying GOD does harm humans? Which flip floppy am I to follow now? Again you posted D3" Your warm and fuzzy Feel Good God is a myth - God ordered the hit upon Job – your satan obeyed God All God’s Plan – all God’s Will - to facilitate God’s Will upon earth - DUH"But you say this order never happened? SO flip flop please explain... The fire from heaven came for the opposer Dave, the prince shedim, where scripture records the prince shedim doing this many times, from heaven. DO you deny Scripture? Or do you follow what man says , a man said the fire from God came down from heaven? R4" So God is a evil monster than according to scriptureD4" God is NOT bound by the 10 Commandments – God kills and causes harm – to facilitate His Will on earthR5" This is outside of this topic, but I will make room for this discussion one day Dave, after you conclude with this one. Back to JOB Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. 7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them.GOD agrees to not change a single ordinance of His written laws, including the laws of salvation regarding faith and human and God response to faith. But you think an angel can ask GOD to change His faith response to salvation process? Remove the hedge of love, allow Job to go back to his old ways of sinnings, reverse the love response of salvation even? Either GOD is faithful or God is not, He can't be changeable. Changing the love hedge, proves to me, God is not changeable, because the OPPOSER asked, not some good angel, but the prince shedim asked, the false elohiym power asked. If is is not like this, you have a good angel asking and God agreeing, thus God is both faithful and faithless, is not what the Scriptures teach. D" Hebrew satan is NOT the Beast The Beast is NOT Hebrew satan You just mix them together to make it a confusing messR" Maybe they are the same Dave? You are the only one who sees them as two separate creatures? Where does Scripture suggest my view? Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, SO the OPPOSER "Hey -Satan" is the same label as "serpent SARAPH" burning angel, same label as "devil- the SHEDIM" and bingo, you claim this verse is false? ( some of brevity Dave discussions are so pithy I leave out) -----4.2----- R4" you are deluded to think just because some human thinks the fire came from heaven, that is also came from God, D4" Fire of God – why do you deny scriptureR5" Answer the question Dave, " you are deluded to think just because some human thinks the fire came from heaven, that is also came from God?" The passage records a human thought this, ( NOT that GOD wrote this) but JOB gives us an different answer, the prince shedim caused this, the OPPOSER. Not GOD. but Dave fails to fathom this? Try discussing this time Dave? D" Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord Baal is a shedim – an archon – from the Beast of Revelation You just mix them together to make it a confusing messRe 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, SO this verse of labels is a lie is it Dave? dragon=serpent=devil=shedim=saraph=angel=opposer=father of lies Seems like you deny Scripture labels? R4" SO you agree that SHedim can bring down fire from heaven?D4" Sure – King Solomon told us the shedim can manipulate nature – wind/rain/ fertility
R5" But you do not agree the Opposer good angel doing a bad job is not the shedim, devil, Satan? You split the words satan and satanas as two different creatures, all over a suffix in Greek?Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, SO this verse of labels is a lie is it Dave? dragon=serpent=devil=shedim=saraph=angel=opposer=father of lies Seems like you deny Scripture labels? But wait this verse uses Greek labels, so Rob is wrong the label here is Satanas, not Satan. So Rob is wrong. Oh I am sorry, the Greek writing is superior to the Hebrew writing is it?Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.So Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and in GREEK will GOD speak to this people. SO how good is this new language? With stammering lips? No good at all? How do you get the truest message? GO back to the hebrew? But the word satan is different to satanas? But the stem is the same, so the words have to be related, that is how Hebrew words work. And if I am wrong, where is your scholar agreeing with you with his expert opinion? You have never supplied me with one, still waiting. D" God is a murderer, destroying Job's children God is a moral monster, planning destruction because He wants to. God is no longer a God of love and salvation, God can also end your salvation in a cruel sword event or a natural disaster on God's call.
You can whine and lament all you want to – your idea of a Feel Good God that never causes any harm is errorR" You don't mean these posts do you Dave? Are you posting them to mock me? Surely do you not supports these words? God is a murderer, destroying Job's children. Does Dave agree to this? Rob doesn't God is a moral monster, planning destruction because He wants to. Does Dave agree to this? Rob doesn't God is no longer a God of love and salvation, God can also end your salvation in a cruel sword event or a natural disaster on God's call. Does Dave agree to this? Rob doesn't Why do you throw so much weight upon no evidence? A prosecuting angel? not a scrap of evidence. But so much more evidence, God is love,, God changes not, God wrote the ten laws Himself, in stone. TWICE. Only for humans? hardly, they existed before Sabbath existed, before a human existed, and before SIN of humans began. You favor the confusing Scriptures over the plain to read Scriptures. I pity you. D"Psa 135:8 He struck down the firstborn of Egypt, both man and beast.R" different topic Dave. RP" My God is not like that Dave. My God is love and loving at all times. D" Why do you deny scripture in favor of a man-made doctrineR" I don't deny Scripture, this opposer here is opposing GOD, you are refusing to see this. ------5.1----------- R3" So are you admitting the prosecutor works with shedim? Isn't this a conflict of interest?D3" Let me explain - Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man - DUHR4" you did not answer my question Dave. Let me explain - Without the hedge – Job was just as venerable to the Beast as any man – DUHR4" Is a prosecutor allowed to help SHEDIM do SHEDIM stuff? My answer is NO !!!!!! a conflict of interest to do so, guilty crimes by doing so.... proof your angel is no prosecutor? D4" There is no scripture here suggesting that Hebrew satan worked with the shedim There is no scripture here suggesting that satan and the shedim had any contact at all Except your assumption
R5" OH, so the good angel suggested a change to God faithfulness, remove the hedge of faith, and this was agreed by God, allowing the shedim to attack, but GOD also touched JOB with the fires from heaven? SO this is your view correct? So this story is really about a prosecutor wanting a human to do future sins, and God agreeing to the process by removing his hedge of faith, and even God sending fire from heaven, the shedim attacking or not attacking is a side minor issue? Is this your view also? OK, why does the Hebrew choose the word "opposer" for this creature, why not "malak" or "cherub" ? I suppose the word is chosen because the good angel is doing a bad job, opposing man's salvation process and looking for further sinning in man? Is this your view Dave? So the word "opposer" reflects the bad function this good angel was given? makes sense. But is it Scriptural? That is what this discussion is about... Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 1, 2022 1:16:19 GMT -5
Job 1:9 Then the satan responded to Adonai, saying, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Job 1:10 Have you not made a hedge around him, his household, and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands and his possessions have increased in the land. Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!” D4" Who is stretching out their hand against Job in this verse – God is R5" Can't you read Scripture? You are reading this that GOD puts forth His hand and GOD harms Job, so GOD wants JOB to curse GOD back? YES – satan said to God Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!”We know this is not what the verse is saying because .... Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: Blah blah – God has a staff for that – Job is in this WORLD Without the hedge – Job was as vulnerable to the archon as any man / every manD4" Why do you think is a sin for an angel to be honest with God? R5" Are you DULL? Asking GOD to love LESS, so JOB hates GOD, is a SINNING QUESTION, is it NOT? You just want to make it evil to please your satanHow is SINNING being honest to GOD? Why is being honest with God a sin Why is quoting scripture a sin
100 Bible Verses about We Are All Sinners - OpenBible.info www.openbible.info › topics › we_are_all_sinnersPhp 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Why is being honest with God a sin Why is quoting scripture a sin
100 Bible Verses about We Are All Sinners - OpenBible.info www.openbible.info › topics › we_are_all_sinners-------1.2------ D" You are totally free to sin right up till the moment of your mortal death – DUH If this wasn’t true – you would NOT teach that you can lose your salvation "D3" All men are sinners – (Rom 5:12) why isn’t satan being honest with God? R4" No Dave, when the salvation process begins, the human is no longer a sinner You bear false witness here – every time you stretch the truth or misrepresent me and others Do you agree with me on this point? - NOT EVEN CLOSE – your claim to perfection is narcissistic ---------------------- "the human does not remain a sinner under the salvation process". Do you agree with me on this point? No such thing as a free pass – now you can sin and get away with it - NONSENSE-------------------- R5" R4" So you agree with me that God never asked the angel to do any harm? So the harming must have come from the opposer Himself? DO you agree with this? (Make your answer about OPPOSER, not hedge or Shedim) You want me to answer about the devil – but I cannot say devilSo serious -------2.2------- R3" Is a prosecutor angel allowed to make a suggestion outside of the function of a prosecutor angel? His role is to prosecute sins? Not arrange for others to harm Job? Please try to answer the questions given to you Dave? You have now TWICE not answered my question. For third and last time – all satan did was tell God the truth – all men are sinners-------2.3----- R3" Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. D3" God telling satan to go do his worst – why is it a sin to obey God R4" Now you say GOD asked the Opposer to harm Job? Please make up your mind Dave. D4" DUH – the only thing the prosecutor can do is accuse Job od error/sin Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other man R5" You are NOT answering my discussions, this is not a discussion Dave. The question was "Now you say GOD asked the Opposer to harm Job? " And Daves reply was "the only thing the prosecutor can do is accuse Job of error/sin" That my friend is NOT answering the question. Your answer should be "Yes God asked the good angel to make arrangements with the shedim to attack Job" Your assumption that you need to make to keep your doctrine true Instead Dave replies the prosecutor can only prosecute sins in Job. OK so why did this prosecutor make the questions of negation to God in the first place? Really Dave can't you follow a discussion line? Answer – the only thing Hebrew satan can do is accuse Without the hedge – Job was as vulnerable to the archon as any man / every men And every moment the prosecutor was there waiting for Job to curse God -----2.6----- D3" The opposer was sent off by God to oppose Job R4" I had to smile...weird You just stated "the prosecutor was sent to oppose Job" D4" Job 1:12 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Everything he has is in your hand. Only do not extend your hand against him!” DUH – the only thing the prosecutor can do is accuse Job of error/sin Without the hedge – Job was just a vulnerable to the BEAST as any other manR5" NOT answered my question Dave. AGAIN. You just refuse to hear my answer – so I stop repeating myself Hebrew satan is NOT the Beast The Beast is not Hebrew satanThe fire from heaven came for the opposer Dave, the prince shedim, where scripture records the prince shedim doing this many times, from heaven. DO you deny Scripture? Or do you follow what man says , Scripture says Job 1:16 While this one was still speaking another came in and said, “The fire of God has fallen from heaven and has burned up the sheep and servants—it has consumed them, and I—I alone—escaped to tell you!” ------------------------ R4" So God is a evil monster than according to scripture D4" God is NOT bound by the 10 Commandments – God kills and causes harm – to facilitate His Will on earth R5" This is outside of this topic, but I will make room for this discussion one day Dave, after you conclude with this one. BULL SHIT – you just made the claim that scripture does NOT mean God when is says God – instead you claim that the FIRE OF GOD is actually your satan godsIf your God is NOT the God of Israel – then whom do you praise? I think this is very much the topicD"Hebrew satan is NOT the Beast The Beast is NOT Hebrew satan You just mix them together to make it a confusing mess R" Maybe they are the same Dave? You are the only one who sees them as two separate creatures?Sorry Robert – 5000 years of Judaism still doesn’t see them as the same – only you and Rome doSorry Robert – the writing of James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas – make them separate Sorry Robert – the writings of King Solomon make them separate Precept upon precept, line upon line
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 14:59:46 GMT -5
D" YES – satan said to God Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!” D"Blah blah – God has a staff for that – Job is in this WORLD Without the hedge – Job was as vulnerable to the archon as any man / every manR" OK why would GOD faithfully respond to Job's prayer faith request for salvation to flow into him fully and powerfully, only for God to stop this flow, draw back from His faithfulness and become a GOD of faithlessness, just because an angel tells GOD to change his system of salvation? Dave you have real trouble answering questions?R5" Asking GOD to love LESS, so JOB hates GOD, is a SINNING QUESTION, is it NOT? And Dave replies with "D" You just want to make it evil to please your satan
Rob" Is that an answer? That is a cop out. Can't you answer the question? Rob asks " How is SINNING being honest to GOD?Dave replies" Why is being honest with God a sin Why is quoting scripture a sin?
Rob replies" Dave, can't you even write what your saying? How is asking " Asking GOD to love LESS, so JOB hates GOD, is a SINNING QUESTION, is it NOT?"
Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. A good angel is not allowed to ask questions that change the salvation system response of GOD, but that us exactly what your "so called good angel" asked.... He asked God to change....drop your hedge....stop loving Job.... And Dave replies with a link? 100 Bible Verses about We Are All Sinners - OpenBible.info www.openbible.info › topics › we_are_all_sinnersRob " And this is supposed to do what? Dave writes no discussion. Is the "good angel" allowed to sin like us humans now? Can't you follow my discussion? End of Dave's discussion. -----1.2----- D" Do you agree with me on this point? - NOT EVEN CLOSE – your claim to perfection is narcissisticR" I see. Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Re 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. ---------- 1Jo 1:8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. R" We come to Jesus as sinning yes.... 1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. R" But abiding in Jesus, we stop sinning. When you sow a faith request in prayer, and the power flow from Jesus into you because of that faith request, there is no sinning in this process, it is a perfect response of the human towards his Saviour. 1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Funny John says sinning is of the "devil" for the "devil" sinned from the beginning. Where is this mentioned in Scripture? Genesis is in the beginning, so John says the "devil" sinned here as the serpent in the Garden. SO does Ezekiel 28. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. R" " your claim to perfection is narcissistic" SO you deny Scripture do you Dave? -----2.2------ D" For third and last time – all satan did was tell God the truth – all men are sinnersRob replies" Dave, this angel did not mention Job was a sinner, sinning. God said Job was perfect, and avoids all sense of RA. Just as John writes we have to. And this angel says what....touch Job and drop your loving response of Job, remove the hedge of protection, become a faithless GOD, and Job will curse you. How is that a telling GOD the truth? You are saying God is not supposed to love humans who seek God? Why does God bless Job twice over at the end than, if God does not Love Job, and His Loving was doubled at the end. Is an angel allowed to tell GOD to stop loving sinners? No, I would call that a sin, and thus the angel is a sinning angel making this request. But Dave only third and last time answer is The angel " did was tell God the truth" ? One pithy reply, is supposed to satisfy the longing of the desiring mind for Dave's point of view? Your religion is not deep enough to satisfy others Dave, it's so brief and does not answer the questions thrown at it. ---2.5---- D" Answer – the only thing Hebrew satan can do is accuseR" Oh I see. So God got a good angel and assigned this angel with the function to accuse, and this includes accusing God as well, and this is all OK and nice? And I am supposed to follow your view because you say so? Sorry I follow Scripture. Now you make angels in a different order of obedience to humans, they are allowed to "sin" and "accuse" because it is not a sin to obey God and follow your assigned function. Besides God does not follow his own royal laws, neither are angels expected to either? Is that it? D" And every moment the prosecutor was there waiting for Job to curse GodR" That is rubbish Dave. Breaking faith begins in the mind, and the angel cannot read minds, only God can. Ro 14:23 ...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. No angel can see if my mind is going to pray a faith request or not going to. SO only God knows the immediate missing I do, not some angel, he can only see the transgressions I do with my body. But hang on, Dave sees angels as spirit and man as spirit inside a body, so maybe the spirit can read the spirit even inside the body, is that your answer Dave, so why do we need to judge anybody if we are all spirit? D" Scripture says Job 1:16 While this one was still speaking another came in and said, “The fire of God has fallen from heaven and has burned up the sheep and servants—it has consumed them, and I—I alone—escaped to tell you!”R" So when Scripture says, its true? 1Sa 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. So its OK to seek wizards and mediums and witches, Scripture says so. King Saul did? So Scripture teaches there are many gods ascending out of the earth?
Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. So there is a hell of fire that torments us, Scripture says so? Ge 19:24 ¶ Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; So there are TWO YHWH's, that make a strange statement against monotheism doesn't it Dave? De 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. How can a human remove the skin around the heart and still live? De 23:1 ¶ He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. So any male with damage private parts is not welcome to be near God? Jg 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Why couldn't God drive out chariots of iron ? After 22,000 Israelites were killed by the Benjamites, they cry all day before the Lord. Then they ask God (again) if they should go to war against Benjamin. God said yes, so they try it again, and another 18,000 Israelites are killed. Judges 20:23-25 Can't God offer advice correctly? Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. 60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? R" So we have to literally eat Jesus and drink His blood, the Jews understood this as a hard saying and left Jesus? Or does it mean literally something else, like a simile? Summary" R" While the Scriptures are written by men under the influence of the Holy Spirit, the words they write are their human reactions, and God dealing with humans, how can I explain this to you? 2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (KJV) Just because Scripture says a little wine for your sick stomach, does not mean SDA are allowed to drink wine with meals, but millions of SDA do this.... like you they twist Scripture messages, and read whatever they want to read. D" BULL SHIT – you just made the claim that scripture does NOT mean God when is says God – instead you claim that the FIRE OF GOD is actually your satan godsR" I see. So if a human writes the fires from heaven came from God, than it came from God? I see. 1Ki 18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken. The people worshipped Baal because fire came down from heaven unto their altar of sacrifice. And Baal is termed a god here? But this god is a shedim god, not the same as your good satan angel, the words are different, the Greek satan is different to the Greek satanas? And Rev 20 writes the serpent, devil, dragon Satan was just satanas. Still waiting for your scholar that makes satan different to satanas? Must be a Greek scholar out there agreeing with Dave? Still waiting.... --------------------- D" Sorry Robert – 5000 years of Judaism still doesn’t see them as the same – only you and Rome doR" 2500 years more like it, since the Hellenized Jews took over the understanding of the Hebrew torah. A Greek edit, you follow. Catholics follow a Roman edit, yes. I follow the original Hebrew torah Moses wrote, unedited and changed by nobody. So Dave stops the discussion for my fifth post that took over 4 hours to write. I can judge from the post times , your reply took less than one hour, so you didn't read hardly anything Dave. So your serious discussions are not serious are they?
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Post by Dave on Sept 2, 2022 2:37:25 GMT -5
Without the hedge – Job was as vulnerable to the archon as any man / every man R" OK why would GOD faithfully respond to Job's prayer faith request for salvation to flow into him fully and powerfully, only for God to stop this flow, draw back from His faithfulness and become a GOD of faithlessness, just because an angel tells GOD to change his system of salvation? Dave you have real trouble answering questions? If there was a serious question before me – scripture could just speak for itself Where do you get the idea that God withheld Job’s salvation. – ABSLOUTE NONSENSER5" Asking GOD to love LESS, so JOB hates GOD, is a SINNING QUESTION, is it NOT? What a ridicules postGod loved Job so much – God had faith in Job – God trusted Job Why do you think this means God loves less What a ridicules postAnd Dave replies with "D"You just want to make it evil to please your satan I cannot see it any other way – you teach God withholds His love and salvation from Job ABSOLUTE NONSENSE------------------ Rob asks "How is SINNING being honest to GOD? Scripture says all men are sinners – satan said – without God’s hedge Job would act like all other men Did satan lie – no he quoted scripture to GodDave replies" Why is being honest with God a sin Why is quoting scripture a sin? Rob replies" Dave, can't you even write what your saying?I will write this slowly – so you can understand Scripture says all men are sinners – satan said – without God’s hedge Job would act like all other men Did satan lie – no he quoted scripture to God Dave replies" Why is being honest with God a sin Why is quoting scripture a sin?And Dave replies with a link? 100 Bible Verses about We Are All Sinners - OpenBible.info www.openbible.info › topics › we_are_all_sinners Rob " And this is supposed to do what? Dave writes no discussion. I will write this slowly – so you can understand Scripture says all men are sinners – satan said – without God’s hedge Job would act like all other men Did satan lie – no he quoted scripture to God Dave replies" Why is being honest with God a sin Why is quoting scripture a sin?---2.5---- D"Answer – the only thing Hebrew satan can do is accuse R" Oh I see. So God got a good angel and assigned this angel with the function to accuse, and this includes accusing God as well, and this is all OK and nice? And I am supposed to follow your view because you say so? Where does your satan oppose God – for 3 years I have been begging you for your evidence and for 3 years all you do is repeat Ezk 28 over and over and over and over
D"Scripture says Job 1:16 While this one was still speaking another came in and said, “The fire of God has fallen from heaven and has burned up the sheep and servants—it has consumed them, and I—I alone—escaped to tell you!” R" So when Scripture says, its true? – YES I believe scripture – why do you doubt scripture1Sa 28:9 -13 So its OK to seek wizards and mediums and witches, Scripture says so. King Saul did? So Scripture teaches there are many gods ascending out of the earth? YES – scripture says – witches, mediums, wizards, other gods – all real - all belong to this WORLD The Beast – that ancient serpent race – that we call devils and satanas
Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. So there is a hell of fire that torments us, Scripture says so? Finally you admit it – up until now you have taught no proportional punishment – up until now you only have the peaceful rest of the grave – then resurrection
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 How fortunate and holy is the one who has a share in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no authority, but they shall be kohanim of God and the Messiah, and they shall reign with Him for a thousand years. up until now you only have the peaceful rest of the grave – then resurrection to reign with God---------------------------- Ge 19:24 ¶ Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; So there are TWO YHWH's, that make a strange statement against monotheism doesn't it Dave? Where do you get this? Your imagination? Robert wrote a post here and Robert said something nonsensical – are there 2 Roberts?----------------- De 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. How can a human remove the skin around the heart and still live? I though you understood similes and metaphors – you just mock scripture when it suits you------------------ De 23:1 ¶ He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. So any male with damage private parts is not welcome to be near God?Deu 23:1 A man is not to take his father’s wife—he is not to expose his father’s nakedness. Deu 23:2 No one with crushed or cut-off genitals is to enter the community of Adonai. Deu 23:3 No one born of forbidden relations is to enter the community of Adonai—even to the tenth generation none of his descendants are to enter the community of Adonai. The Law of Moses – that you have taken out of context Who were the eunuchs of the ahl/OT – and why were they frowned uponMat 5:28 But I tell you that everyone who looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Mat 5:29 And if your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away! It is better for you that one part of your body should be destroyed, than that your whole body be thrown into Gehenna. The Law of Moses – that you have taken out of context Who were the eunuchs of the ahl/OT – and why were they frowned uponShould Christians self-castrate themselves? Many thought Jesus called for it -------------------------- Jg 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Why couldn't God drive out chariots of iron ?Your answer = Your feel good god is not allowed – no harm My answer – God could call fire and brimstone down upon Sodom and Gomorrah – so God could have swept away this enemy – no contest – but He didn’t SO THAT GOD’S WILL UNFOLDS ON EARTHAfter 22,000 Israelites were killed by the Benjamites, they cry all day before the Lord. Then they ask God (again) if they should go to war against Benjamin. God said yes, so they try it again, and another 18,000 Israelites are killed. Judges 20:23-25 Can't God offer advice correctly?Your answer = Your feel good god is not allowed – no harm My answer –SO THAT GOD’S WILL UNFOLDS ON EARTHJoh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. 60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? R" So we have to literally eat Jesus and drink His blood, the Jews understood this as a hard saying and left Jesus? Or does it mean literally something else, like a simile? The Gospel of PhillipSome are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing.does it mean literally something else, like a simile?You just deny the spirit and the spiritual - or you wouldn't ask------------------------ Just because Scripture says a little wine for your sick stomach, does not mean SDA are allowed to drink wine with meals, but millions of SDA do this.... like you they twist Scripture messages, and read whatever they want to read. The Israelites drank real wine - if the grape juice was not fermented - it would just spoil Roman soldiers convicated it and became drunk on it Communion guest in Corinth were getting drunk on it SNAPS - is a Jewish liquior D"BULL SHIT – you just made the claim that scripture does NOT mean God when is says God – instead you claim that the FIRE OF GOD is actually your satan gods R" I see. So if a human writes the fires from heaven came from God, than it came from God? I see. YES – if scripture says a thing – it is true1Ki 18:24 - The people worshipped Baal because fire came down from heaven unto their altar of sacrifice. And Baal is termed a god here? But this god is a shedim god (other god) and YES – if scripture says it – it is true--------------------- I can judge from the post times , your reply took less than one hour, so you didn't read hardly anything Dave. So your serious discussions are not serious are they? I have been telling you the same answers for three years –I know my theology – I know my doctrine – I have been a student of scripture for a long time - why should I spend hours researching my own view I have been telling you the same answers for three years
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:33:57 GMT -5
RP: 1Ki 18:24 - The people worshipped Baal because fire came down from heaven unto their altar of sacrifice. And Baal is termed a god here?D" But this god is a shedim god (other god) and YES – if scripture says it – it is trueR" Wow you agree with me So if the shedim is a god, where did the shedim come from? Only your Gnostic writings say God created them? But why would God create opposing elohiym gods on purpose?Just so these shedim gods could oppose the Father in heaven, that's why there was war in heaven and they got kicked out remember? The only reason I know why God opposes anybody, any creature He created, is because they SIN? But you never fathom this? Why is that? D" YES – if scripture says a thing – it is trueR" really? RP" Ge 19:24 ¶ Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; So there are TWO YHWH's, that make a strange statement against monotheism doesn't it Dave?D" Where do you get this? Your imagination?You said "i f scripture says a thing – it is true" Adam Clarke was not affirming this so well "Verse 24. The Lord rained-brimstone and fire from the Lord] As all judgment is committed to the Son of God, many of the primitive fathers and several modern divines have supposed that the words hwhyw vaihovah and hwhy tam meeth Yehovah imply, Jehovah the Son raining brimstone and fire from Jehovah the Father; and that this place affords no mean proof of the proper Divinity of our blessed Redeemer. It may be so; but though the point is sufficiently established elsewhere, it does not appear to me to be plainly indicated here. And it is always better on a subject of this kind not to have recourse to proofs which require proofs to confirm them. It must however be granted that two persons mentioned as Jehovah in one verse, is both a strange and curious circumstance; and it will appear more remarkable when we consider that the person called Jehovah, who conversed with Abraham, (see chap. xviii.,) and sent those two angels to bring Lot and his family out of this devoted place, and seems himself after he left off talking with Abraham to have ascended to heaven, Ge 19:33, does not any more appear on this occasion till we hear that JEHOVAH rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from JEHOVAH out of heaven. This certainly gives much countenance to the opinion referred to above, though still it may fall short of positive proof." JOhn Wesley does Then the Lord rained-from the Lord-God the Son, from God the Father, for the Father has committed all judgment to the Son. He that is the Saviour will be the destroyer of those that reject the salvation. Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers (24) The Lord (Jehovah) rained . . . from the Lord (from Jehovah).—Many commentators, following the Council of Sirmium, see in this repetition of the name of Jehovah an indication of the Holy Trinity, as though God the Son rained down fire from God the Father. More correctly Calvin takes it as an emphatic reiteration of its being Jehovah’s act. Benson Commentary Genesis 19:24. Then the Lord rained, from the Lord — The Son, who had conversed with Abraham, from the Father, for the Father has committed all judgment to the Son. He that is they Saviour will be the destroyer of those that reject the salvation.Notice the commentary from Scripture Am 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. It says elohiym did this,, not YHWH, and we have one YHWH speaking. This makes sense if elohiym is a family concept of power. So yes like my pioneers I support the idea of TWO YHWH in Scripture. The words tells you, Secure Hey and Active hey, refers to two masculine members of elohiym. So if you say Scripture is true, explain this away than? If I were Dave, I would say it's the two expressions of the Father. But we have them stated in two locations? So you say....your theory is really not much different to two persons of the Father, so why not make a Family power of elohiym instead, as Eph 3:15 says? You see I read Scripture, and I notice Jews do not read the NT, so they do not understand as OT and NT readers do. -------------------------------------- D" If there was a serious question before me – scripture could just speak for itself Where do you get the idea that God withheld Job’s salvation. – ABSLOUTE NONSENSER" Don't you read Scripture Dave? Or my posts? Hedge is used 3 times in torah Job 10:11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews. 12 Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit So this refers to giving life to the human. Ho 2:6 ¶ Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths. 7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now. And here, the hedge keep away our old lovers of SELF, our pet sinful habits. The first verse speaks of GOD keeping us alive naturally The second verse speaks of GOD actively removing our old loves and our old pet sins from us. NOW do you understand what your so called prosecutor was asking? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 3, 2022 5:32:45 GMT -5
So if the shedim is a god, where did the shedim come from? Only your Gnostic writings say God created them? But why would God create opposing elohiym gods on purpose?
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
You call yourself a Christian – but teach you consider the New Testament = Gnostic and something you should doubt and ignore
D"YES – if scripture says a thing – it is true R" really?
RP" Ge 19:24 ¶ Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; So there are TWO YHWH's, that make a strange statement against monotheism doesn't it Dave? D" Where do you get this? Your imagination? You said "if scripture says a thing – it is true"
I’m done – come back when you are serious There is no value in a discussion with a 2 year old
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2022 14:41:33 GMT -5
RP" But why would God create opposing elohiym gods on purpose?
Dave replies
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
You call yourself a Christian – but teach you consider the New Testament = Gnostic and something you should doubt and ignore
Rob wishes to confirm
Are you saying that GOD intentionally created the SHEDIM on purpose as an opposing elohiym power?
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Post by Dave on Sept 4, 2022 5:42:16 GMT -5
Rob wishes to confirm Are you saying that GOD intentionally created the SHEDIM on purpose as an opposing elohiym power?
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
Repeat - You call yourself a Christian – but teach you consider the New Testament = Gnostic and something you should doubt and ignore
RP" But why would God create opposing elohiym gods on purpose? Why do you deny scripture?
Deu 8:2 … in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.
Jer 20:12 But, O LORD of hosts, that triest the righteous, and seest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I opened my cause.
Isa 48:10 Lo, I have refined thee, and not with silver, I have chosen thee in a furnace of affliction.
Psa 66:10 For Thou hast tried us, O God, Thou hast refined us as the refining of silver.
Job 7:18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
RP" But why would God create opposing elohiym gods on purpose? GOD TEST MAN - Why do you deny scripture?
Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Jas 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. Jas 1:15 Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is full grown, it brings forth death.
RP" But why would God create opposing elohiym gods on purpose? GOD TEST MAN - Why do you deny scripture? But He does not do it directly – THE WORLD with its selfish desires does it for Him
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire.
RP" But why would God create opposing elohiym gods on purpose? GOD TEST MAN - Why do you deny scripture?
Repeat - You call yourself a Christian – but teach you consider the New Testament = Gnostic and something you should doubt and ignore
THERE IS NO SECOND CREATOR
ALL GOD’S PLAN – no one can alter God’s Plan All GOD’S WILL – no one can alter God’s Will
Your teaching that an angel of God - changed his own role within creation = blastophemy
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Post by Dave on Sept 4, 2022 7:22:29 GMT -5
Eph 3:7 whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of that grace of God which was given me according to the working of his power. Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach unto the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; Eph 3:9 and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things; Eph 3:10 to the intent that now unto the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places might be made known through the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:10 ἵνα γνωρισθῇ νῦν ταῖς ἀρχαῖς (G746) καὶ ταῖς ἐξουσίαις ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις διὰ τῆς ἐκκλησίας ἡ πολυποίκιλος σοφία τοῦ Θεοῦ,
G746 - ἀρχή - archē / archon - chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank)
Eph 3:10 to the intent that now unto the principalities (archon) and the powers in the heavenly places might be made known through the church the manifold wisdom of God,
YES – this is my ministry – to teach the REALITY OF THE ARCHON
Eph 3:9 and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things;
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