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Post by Dave on Nov 23, 2023 8:20:15 GMT -5
Dave" Why does the NT use a new word - why not just say Holy Spirit? Rob" Jesus promised to send another comforter, brand new function of the HS for the Son Just how many gods do you have in your pantheon – each new word is a new and different god for youEze 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. Eze 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. Why do you deny the OT?------------------------------------ Dave" the question is – can God create spirit as an independent entity Rob" Sure, GOD can create whatever He wants, though there are a few exceptions. You are posing the idea that GOD can impart a part of the Father Himself in some functional being, termed a "spark-spirit" that is given to humans making them "you Not the teaching and you know it Angels are NOT little pieces of God – they are unique and individual beings created by God Man is not little pieces of God – they are unique and individual beings created by God-------------------------------- Rob" Sure, GOD can create whatever He wants Why do you post things that you do not believe?Rob” God cannot create the spirit of man Why is your statement NOT a complete an utter contradiction?------------------------------- Dave" Sorry Robert – angels do not have Free Will ROb" But you said many angels sinned (Gen 6) Yep – they are led by yester ra – the desire to procreate – as all BEAST are commandedDave" Jude tell us they are locked away in prison held in chains ROb" Define how a chain of darkness, means the sinning angels are locked away in some prison inside the earth? (Secretes of Enoch – or Slavic Enoch) 18:1 THE men took me on to the fifth heaven and placed me, and there I saw many and countless soldiers, called Grigori, of human appearance, and their size was greater than that of great giants and their faces withered, and the silence of their mouths perpetual, and there was no service on the fifth heaven, and I said to the men who were with me: 2 Wherefore are these very withered and their faces melancholy, and their mouths silent, and wherefore is there no service on this heaven? 3 And they said to me: These are the Grigori, who with their prince Satanail rejected the Lord of light, and after them are those who are held in great darkness on the second heaven, and three of them went down on to earth from the Lord's throne, to the place Ermon, and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill Ermon 1 and saw the daughters of men how good they are, and took to themselves wives, and befouled the earth with their deeds, who in all times of their age made lawlessness and mixing, and giants are born and marvellous big men and great enmity. 4 And therefore God judged them with great judgement, and they weep for their brethren and they will be punished on the Lord's great day. ============ ROb" I don't. You fail to understand eloihiym is a unit. Every creed that you posted all say - One God in 3 persons Dose not say multiple people working together to = one god============== 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; You see this as Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison as dead Jesus talking to dead humans, But I see this as a living Jesus talking to living humans who are spirits trapped in a prison house, all the days we are alive. Verse 18 states that Yeshua was put to death, was then quickened or made alive by the Spirit (i.e. was resurrected from the grave), and then, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. So you deny that Jesus was dead in the tomb for 3 days You teach that Jesus Christ was immediately resurrected? bibleproject.com/articles/why-did-jesus-rise-on-the-third-dayWhy did Jesus Rise on the Third Day? - The Bible Project When we arrive at the Gospels, we find Jesus speaking of a third-day resurrection when he talks about his death with his disciples. In fact, he mentions “three days” 21 times in the Gospel accounts! Gee – should we accept scripture and the teaching of Jesus Christ Or – your blastophemy?Christ went to preach to spirits – You teach Christ went to preach to the Holy Spirit – ruwach – the wind – or the cherubs – or which ever polyseminous word you care to use for the day So your statement means what? – Do you know?Correct – Christ was QUICKENED Do your best Robert method – what does this word mean in Greek? Do you know? Why doesn’t scripture just say Christ was resurrected immediately – why the new word QUICKENED?Do you know? ----------------------------------- ROB" Jewish idea that the "spirits" are real…… Correct – the concept of spirit and spirits is a Judeao-Christian teaching and always has been From the context of this passage, we learn that Yeshua Christ preached to the spirits who rebelled in Noah’s time Yes – I agree ----------------------------------- Gordon" Finally a "spirit" comes forth and proposes that it be a false spirit of prophecy in the mouth of the prophets of Ahab. YHWH accepts the proposal and orders the spirit to carry out the mission. ROb" Notice Gordon says the "spirit" volunteers to be a "false spirit of prophecy". But Dave argues no-one can change their design unless created that way, yet the angel volunteers to be a "false spirit of prophecy". Are you teaching that your satan volunteered to rebel, hate, and oppose God in Ezk 28 to become your god of evil?Why haven’t you even said this in 4 years – only now do you suggest that your satan god is volunteering to be evil How does volunteering to serve God = PROVE your satan rebels, hates, and opposes God?Just how much contradiction to do think you can preach without stepping in it? --------------------------------------------- Gordon" Thus when Nebuchadnezzar sees a man with the appearance of "a son of God" he knows this to be an "angel" אָךְ ְ לַמ of God. Rob" This is an assumption. Yes – you have tried to teach this as well – says that Christ is just the angel Michael IT IS BLASTOPHEMY and you broadcast it loudly to the world---------------------------- We have a real problem You flip flop on every religious teaching except Catholic satan Where is your credability? - you have proven that you will say anything just to oppose No one knows what you mean - because you do not know what you mean You say one thing today - then change it - or deny it tommorrow Where is your credability?You missrepresent and outright LIE - is this how Ellen White teaches to respect scripture?
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Post by rob on Nov 23, 2023 15:11:09 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" Eze 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. Eze 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. Why do you deny the OT?ROB" What am I supposed to do with this brevity Dave? Eze 1:1 ...I saw visions of God. The prophet is in a vision, and after a while the voice is channeled through the medium personally to speak to the prophet. Dave" Not the teaching and you know it Angels are NOT little pieces of God – they are unique and individual beings created by God Man is not little pieces of God – they are unique and individual beings created by GodROB" O I am sorry. How is this now any different to the torah idea of how creatures lives under the breath of life? ----------- DavePP" Sorry Robert – angels do not have Free Will RObPP" But you said many angels sinned (Gen 6)Dave" Yep – they are led by yester ra – the desire to procreate – as all BEAST are commandedROB" This is big problem, but brevity Dave fails to explain. I thought angels only have yester tov? Really Dave you speak riddles and make up stuff? And you did not answer my question. Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together (FREE WILL), saith the LORD: though your sins (SIN) be as scarlet,Any creature that SINS has to sin by Reason powers, hence FREE WILL. Not explained by Dave. Not acknowledged by the Jews either. So the embedded yester ra, made me do it, not a sin, just a natural habit animals are doing. You consider your archons as mere animals don't you, not arum creatures with intelligence? What about the Jew who wrote the " satanic angel" about Job? www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1055341/jewish/Can-Angels-Sin.htmIn other words, only man has been endowed with the inclination for both good and bad. And only man has been given free choice to choose either one. An angel, on other hand, has no evil inclination and therefore no free choice. This would seem to mean that an angel is something like a robot, which cannot rebel or sin.This author says the angels have no yester ra. Jews completely invent a different definition to Isa 1:18 free will. ie "reason". Why does Dave speak of " Yep – they are led by yester ra – the desire to procreate – as all BEAST are commanded" Can't you stick to the question I asked? Can angels sin? You said yes, now you say no? And we say in the liturgy of Yom Kippur:
The angels are dismayed, they are seized by fear and trembling as they proclaim: Behold the Day of Judgment! For all the hosts of heaven are brought for judgment. They shall not be guiltless in Your eyes.
Both of these quotes clearly imply that in spite of what we have said, angels do somehow manage to sin even without having an evil inclination, and are judged on Yom Kippur.
Furthermore, we find various instances in the Midrash and Talmud of angels being punished. A punishment implies that one had a choice in the matter.
ROB" Fancy that angels can sort of sin, without an evil inclination to sin, so they do not have free will to sin. Mumbo jumbo inventions of men, what about sticking to the torah as the Bible reads? " Punishment implies sin. If so, the above cited Midrash implies that angels can indeed and in fact did sin". ROb" Mumbo jumbo inventions of men, what about sticking to the torah as the Bible reads? Rabbi Yeshaya Halevi Horowitz in his classic Shnei Luchot HaBrit (Shelah), provides an explanation. He concedes that angels do not have an evil inclination and, therefore, cannot sin in the conventional meaning of the word,ROB" No wonder Dave is like he is, the Jews have different definitions of sin for creatures without free will, but sin. Sure glad of the Ezekiel 28 verse Jews ignore, and Dave refuses to comment on. All about man. The verse says cherub chata, that is easy to read. " An angel is not merely a robot; it is something like a robot with its own intelligence. Perhaps the best analogy would be one of those androids in sci-fi which have their own intelligence and yet are incapable of deliberately doing something contrary to the function for which they were designed—but nevertheless make mistakes.Rob" So now GOD writes program functions in angels that occasionally makes mistakes. Really??? Additionally, Rabbi Yonatan Eibishitz11 explains that there are two types of sins. The first is the most common kind, a sin that comes through the evil inclination enticing us to do wrong. But there is another sort of sin which does not come through the evil inclination; on the contrary, this sin is transgressed out of "holiness." ROB" How nice an invented definition of sin as well. Dave" (Secretes of Enoch – or Slavic Enoch) 18:1 ... 3 And they said to me: These are the Grigori, who with their prince Satanail rejected the Lord of light, and after them are those who are held in great darkness on the second heaven,
ROB" So this writing outside of the torah i s supposed to be inspired explaining the chains of darkness is really a place where the angels are locked away from tempting humans to sin also? ================== Dave" Every creed that you posted all say - One God in 3 persons Dose not say multiple people working together to = one godROB" I wonder why that is? you fail to understand what a unit means? www.cru.org/us/en/train-and-grow/spiritual-growth/core-christian-beliefs/understanding-the-trinity.html#What%20Does%20It%20Mean%20That%20God%20Is%20A%20Trinity?ROB " A random link I found, not particularly interested in finding anything, just one of many who see what the mainstream view of trinity is:- The Bible speaks of the Father as God (Phil. 1:2), Jesus as God (Titus 2:13), and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts 5:3-4). Are these just three different ways of looking at God, or simply ways of referring to three different roles that God plays?
The answer must be no, because the Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. .For example, since the Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16), He cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, after the Son returned to the Father (John 16:10), the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26; Acts 2:33). Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be distinct from the Father and the Son.ROB" Nice, the author explains what a person is. In the baptism of Jesus, we see the Father speaking from heaven and the Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove as Jesus comes out of the water (Mark 1:10-11). In John 1:1 it is affirmed that Jesus is God and, at the same time, that He was “with God”- thereby indicating that Jesus is a distinct Person from God the Father (cf. also 1:18). And in John 16:13-15 we see that although there is a close unity between them all, the Holy Spirit is also distinct from the Father and the Son.
The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.
ROB" Not three expressions of the same Father For example, since the Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16), He cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, after the Son returned to the Father (John 16:10), the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26; Acts 2:33). Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be distinct from the Father and the Son.
In the baptism of Jesus, we see the Father speaking from heaven and the Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove as Jesus comes out of the water (Mark 1:10-11). In John 1:1 it is affirmed that Jesus is God and, at the same time, that He was “with God”- thereby indicating that Jesus is a distinct Person from God the Father (cf. also 1:18). And in John 16:13-15 we see that although there is a close unity between them all, the Holy Spirit is also distinct from the Father and the Son.
The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.
What Does it Mean That God is a Trinity? The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God. ROB: Elohiym is a unit of three distinct personalities of love, as we might associate in a human family of love. We humans were made in the image of elohiym.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons The Bible speaks of the Father as God (Phil. 1:2), Jesus as God (Titus 2:13), and the Holy Spirit as God (Acts 5:3-4). Are these just three different ways of looking at God, or simply ways of referring to three different roles that God plays?
The answer must be no, because the Bible also indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. For example, since the Father sent the Son into the world (John 3:16), He cannot be the same person as the Son. Likewise, after the Son returned to the Father (John 16:10), the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit into the world (John 14:26; Acts 2:33). Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be distinct from the Father and the Son.
In the baptism of Jesus, we see the Father speaking from heaven and the Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove as Jesus comes out of the water (Mark 1:10-11). In John 1:1 it is affirmed that Jesus is God and, at the same time, that He was “with God”- thereby indicating that Jesus is a distinct Person from God the Father (cf. also 1:18). And in John 16:13-15 we see that although there is a close unity between them all, the Holy Spirit is also distinct from the Father and the Son.
The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.
The personhood of each member of the Trinity means that each Person has a distinct center of consciousness. Thus, they relate to each other personally — the Father regards Himself as “I,” while He regards the Son and Holy Spirit as “You.” Likewise the Son regards Himself as “I,” but the Father and the Holy Spirit as “You.”
Often it is objected that “If Jesus is God, then he must have prayed to himself while he was on earth.” But the answer to this objection lies in simply applying what we have already seen. While Jesus and the Father are both God, they are different Persons. Thus, Jesus prayed to God the Father without praying to Himself. In fact, it is precisely the continuing dialogue between the Father and the Son (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 5:19; 11:41-42; 17:1ff ) which furnishes the best evidence that they are distinct Persons with distinct centers of consciousness.
ROB: Faith requires a minimum of two distinct persons, the Son was living under the powers of the Father's words by faith, an essential requirement, as faith is eternally a part of the ten commandment way of living forever. S ometimes the Personhood of the Father and Son is appreciated, but the Personhood of the Holy Spirit is neglected. Sometimes the Spirit is treated more like a “force” than a Person. But the Holy Spirit is not an it, but a He (see John 14:26; 16:7-15; Acts 8:16). The fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, not an impersonal force (like gravity), is also shown by the fact that He speaks (Hebrews 3:7), reasons (Acts 15:28), thinks and understands (1 Corinthians 2:10-11), wills (1 Corinthians 12:11), feels (Ephesians 4:30), and gives personal fellowship (2 Corinthians 13:14).
ROB I would disagree that the HS is a "he". The medium allows the "he" voices to flow through a medium. In order to identify the personhood of the HS, we must find verses where the HS is not in the presence of the elohiym powers, and thus referenced alone. Ho 4:19 The wind hath bound her up in her wings, This is the only verse the KJV translates correctly showing the HS is a feminine person. These are all qualities of personhood. In addition to these texts, the others we mentioned above make clear that the Personhood of the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Personhood of the Son and the Father. They are three real persons, not three roles God plays.
Another serious error people have made is to think that the Father became the Son, who then became the Holy Spirit. Contrary to this, the passages we have seen imply that God always was and always will be three Persons. There was never a time when one of the Persons of the Godhead did not exist. They are all eternal.
While the three members of the Trinity are distinct, this does not mean that any is inferior to the other. Instead, they are all identical in attributes. They are equal in power, love, mercy, justice, holiness, knowledge, and all other qualities.ROB" Equal yes, but each has distinct functional attributes of love and loving, something mainstream churches fail to understand. There are two hebrew words for love, not one. E ach Person is fully God If God is three Persons, does this mean that each Person is “one-third” of God? Does the Trinity mean that God is divided into three parts?
The Trinity does not divide God into three parts. The Bible is clear that all three Persons are each one hundred percent God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all fully God. For example, it says of Christ that “in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9).
We should not think of God as like a “pie” cut into three pieces, each piece representing a Person. This would make each Person less than fully God and thus not God at all. Rather, “the being of each Person is equal to the whole being of God.”[1] The divine essence is not something that is divided between the three persons, but is fully in all three persons without being divided into “parts.”
Thus, the Son is not one-third of the being of God, He is all of the being of God. The Father is not one-third of the being of God, He is all of the being of God. And likewise with the Holy Spirit. Thus, as Wayne Grudem writes, “When we speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together we are not speaking of any greater being than when we speak of the Father alone, the Son alone, or the Holy Spirit alone.”[2] ROB" Why don't we think of elohiym powers as a family power? This fits all contexts, judges, pagan gods, and the true god in heaven. We do not need the term 'trinity' when the term 'family' exists in the NT. Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven... Elohiym power is a family power, seen by this verse. There is only one God If each Person of the Trinity is distinct and yet fully God, then should we conclude that there is more than one God? Obviously we cannot, for Scripture is clear that there is only one God: “There is no other God besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other” (Isaiah 45:21-22; see also 44:6-8; Exodus 15:11; Deuteronomy 4:35; 6:4-5; 32:39; 1 Samuel 2:2; 1 Kings 8:60).
ROB" Elohiym is a family unit. Having seen that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, that they are each fully God, and that there is nonetheless only one God, we must conclude that all three Persons are the same God. In other words, there is one God who exists as three distinct Persons. ROB" Hmmm? Ahub love provides and Ahabuh love responds, hence they are required to complete love as a functional whole, ie a unit of love. If there is one passage which most clearly brings all of this together, it is Matthew 28:19: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” First, notice that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinguished as distinct Persons. We baptize into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Second, notice that each Person must be deity because they are all placed on the same level. In fact, would Jesus have us baptize in the name of a mere creature? Surely not. Therefore each of the Persons into whose name we are to be baptized must be deity.
ROB" There is also rank, the Most High denotes rank, while all are equal in power, yes. Third, notice that although the three divine Persons are distinct, we are baptized into their name (singular), not names (plural). The three Persons are distinct, yet only constitute one name. This can only be if they share one essence.
Is the Trinity Contradictory? This leads us to investigate more closely a very helpful definition of the Trinity which I mentioned earlier: God is one in essence, but three in Person. This formulation can show us why there are not three Gods, and why the Trinity is not a contradiction.
In order for something to be contradictory, it must violate the law of noncontradiction. This law states that A cannot be both A (what it is) and non-A (what it is not) at the same time and in the same relationship. In other words, you have contradicted yourself if you affirm and deny the same statement. For example, if I say that the moon is made entirely of cheese but then also say that the moon is not made entirely of cheese, I have contradicted myself.
Other statements may at first seem contradictory but are really not. Theologian R.C. Sproul cites as an example Dickens’ famous line, “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.” Obviously this is a contradiction if Dickens means that it was the best of times in the same way that it was the worst of times. But he avoids contradiction with this statement because he means that in one sense it was the best of times, but in another sense it was the worst of times.
Carrying this concept over to the Trinity, it is not a contradiction for God to be both three and one because He is not three and one in the same way. He is three in a different way than He is one. Thus, we are not speaking with a forked tongue — we are not saying that God is one and then denying that He is one by saying that He is three. This is very important: God is one and three at the same time, but not in the same way.
How is God one? He is one in essence. How is God three? He is three in Person. Essence and person are not the same thing. God is one in a certain way (essence) and three in a different way (person). Since God is one in a different way than He is three, the Trinity is not a contradiction. There would only be a contradiction if we said that God is three in the same way that He is one.
So a closer look at the fact that God is one in essence but three in person has helped to show why the Trinity is not a contradiction. But how does it show us why there is only one God instead of three? It is very simple:
All three Persons are one God because, as we saw above, they are all the same essence. Essence means the same thing as “being.” Thus, since God is only one essence, He is only one being, not three. This should make it clear why it is so important to understand that all three Persons are the same essence. For if we deny this, we have denied God’s unity and affirmed that there is more than one being of God (i.e., that there is more than one God).
ROB" Mumbo jumbo explanations. A creature kind, elohiym creature. Is the cainus kind one being? Yes, but two personalities of loving. The female is not a different kind to the male cainus kind. A unit of loving becomes oneness in function. That is the simple creation model the Creation is teaching us. The Father made marriage and love as a model from His Creation, and Romans 1:20 teaches us to look at Creation to understand the mysteries of the Godhead. What we have seen so far provides a good basic understanding of the Trinity. But it is possible to go deeper. If we can understand more precisely what is meant by essence and person, how these two terms differ, and how they relate, we will then have a more complete understanding of the Trinity.
Essence and Person Essence What does essence mean? As I said earlier, it means the same thing as being. God’s essence is His being. To be even more precise, essence is what you are. At the risk of sounding too physical, essence can be understood as the “stuff ” that you “consist of.”
Of course we are speaking by analogy here, for we cannot understand this in a physical way about God. “God is spirit” (John 4:24). Further, we clearly should not think of God as “consisting of ” anything other than divinity. The “substance” of God is God, not a bunch of “ingredients” that taken together yield deity.ROB" The Author uses terms invented by human translations. ELohiym is not a medium. The word divinity maybe found in one place Hab 3:4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power. Each member of the elohiym divine family has this Hebrew word, we term divinity, but is translated to mean "hidden". Person In regards to the Trinity, we use the term “Person” differently than we generally use it in everyday life. Therefore, it is often difficult to have a concrete definition of Person as we use it in regards to the Trinity. What we do not mean by Person is an “independent individual” in the sense that both I and another human are separate, independent individuals who can exist apart from one another.
What we do mean by Person is something that regards himself as “I” and others as “You.” So the Father, for example, is a different Person from the Son because He regards the Son as a “You,” even though He regards Himself as “I.” Thus, in regards to the Trinity, we can say that “Person” means a distinct subject which regards Himself as an “I” and the other two as a “You.” These distinct subjects are not a division within the being of God, but “a form of personal existence other than a difference in being.”[3]
How do they relate? The relationship between essence and Person, then, is as follows. Within God’s one, undivided being is an “unfolding” into three personal distinctions. These personal distinctions are modes of existence within the divine being, but are not divisions of the divine being. They are personal forms of existence other than a difference in being.
The late theologian Herman Bavinck has stated something very helpful at this point: “The persons are modes of existence within the being; accordingly, the Persons differ among themselves as the one mode of existence differs from the other, and — using a common illustration —as the open palm differs from a closed fist.”[4]
Because each of these “forms of existence” are relational (and thus are Persons), they are each a distinct center of consciousness, with each center of consciousness regarding Himself as “I” and the others as “You.” Nonetheless, these three Persons all “consist of ” the same “stuff ” (that is, the same “what,” or essence). As theologian and apologist Norman Geisler has explained it, while essence is what you are, person is who you are. So God is one “what” but three “whos.”
The divine essence is thus not something that exists “above” or “separate from” the three Persons, but the divine essence is the being of the three Persons. Neither should we think of the Persons as being defined by attributes added on to the being of God. Wayne Grudem explains:
But if each person is fully God and has all of God’s being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others.ROB" Hmmm? I beg to differ. The functional attributes of love and loving in each member of elohiym power is different. Main stream churches do not understand there are two Hebrew words for love. On the other hand, we must say that the Persons are real, that they are not just different ways of looking at the one being of God...The only way it seems possible to do this is to say that the distinction between the persons is not a difference of "being" but a difference of "relationships." This is something far removed from our human experience, where every different human "person" is a different being as well. Somehow God’s being is so much greater than ours that within his one undivided being there can be an unfolding into interpersonal relationships, so that there can be three distinct persons.[5] Rob" difference of relationships? yes Trinitarian Illustrations? There are many illustrations which have been offered to help us understand the Trinity. While there are some illustrations which are helpful, we should recognize that no illustration is perfect. Unfortunately, there are many illustrations which are not simply imperfect, but in error.
One illustration to beware of is the one which says, “I am one person, but I am a student, son, and brother. This explains how God can be both one and three.” The problem with this is that it reflects a heresy called modalism. God is not one person who plays three different roles, as this illustration suggests. He is one Being in three Persons (centers of consciousness), not merely three roles. This analogy ignores the personal distinctions within God and mitigates them to mere roles.
Summary Let us quickly review what we have seen.
The Trinity is not belief in three gods. There is only one God, and we must never stray from this. This one God exists as three Persons. The three Persons are not each part of God, but are each fully God and equally God. Within God’s one undivided being there is an unfolding into three interpersonal relationships such that there are three Persons. The distinctions within the Godhead are not distinctions of His essence and neither are they something added on to His essence, but they are the unfolding of God’s one, undivided being into three interpersonal relationships such that there are three real Persons. God is not one person who took three consecutive roles. That is the heresy of modalism. The Father did not become the Son and then the Holy Spirit. Instead, there have always been and always will be three distinct persons in the Godhead. The Trinity is not a contradiction because God is not three in the same way that He is one. God is one in essence, three in Person. Application The Trinity is first of all important because God is important. To understand more fully what God is like is a way of honoring God. Further, we should allow the fact that God is triune to deepen our worship. We exist to worship God. And God seeks people to worship Him in “spirit and truth” (John 4:24). Therefore, we must always endeavor to deepen our worship of God — in truth as well as in our hearts.
The Trinity has a very significant application to prayer. The general pattern of prayer in the Bible is to pray to the Father through the Son and in the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:18). Our fellowship with God should be enhanced by consciously knowing that we are relating to a tri-personal God!
Awareness of the distinct role that each Person of the Trinity has in our salvation can especially serve to give us greater comfort and appreciation for God in our prayers, as well as helping us to be specific in directing our prayers. Nonetheless, while recognizing the distinct roles that each Person has, we should never think of their roles as so separate that the other Persons are not involved. Rather, everything that one Person is involved in, the other two are also involved in, one way or another.============================ Dave" So you deny that Jesus was dead in the tomb for 3 days You teach that Jesus Christ was immediately resurrected?Rob" Just another error you believe Dave, along with countless other errors. What is gained by Jesus talking to dead people Dave?Dave" why the new word QUICKENED? Do you know?ROb" I am not buying into your brevity Dave. The word quickened is chayah, meaning living. ======================= No real comments over the part 3 of Gordons study. No comments of explaining the "we" in Scriptures. No comments of Wesley saying his ideas. Nothing. Dave is tired. ======================= No comments about the Father either. None of my questions answered about the Father. ====================== Dave" No one knows what you mean - because you do not know what you mean You say one thing today - then change it - or deny it tommorrow Where is your credability?
ROb" Yes this is so true of Jewish articles. (1) Two definitions of sin. (2) God must have created the shedim too, but they sin under this second definition of sin, no free will to sin. I suppose one can create whatever they like. Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Jews are guilty of adding to the torah and taking away verses from the torah. Jews are experts at poetry, but fail to notice Ezekiel 28 as a poetry about man and the cherub. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 23, 2023 20:39:09 GMT -5
Rob" Jesus promised to send another comforter, brand new function of the HS for the Son Dave" Eze 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. Eze 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. Why do you deny the OT? ROB" What am I supposed to do with this brevity Dave? Answer the question – why do you teach that the Comforter is only a NT Eze 1:1 ...I saw visions of God. Way to pervert the discussion – we are talking about the Spirit dwelling within man-------------------------------------------- Dave" Not the teaching and you know it Angels are NOT little pieces of God – they are unique and individual beings created by God Man is not little pieces of God – they are unique and individual beings created by God ROB" O I am sorry. How is this now any different to the torah idea of how creatures lives under the breath of life? Because you obviously deny that spirit are unique and independent individuals You try to teach that all angles, spirits of any type, demons and man are just the HS ----------- DavePP" Sorry Robert – angels do not have Free Will RObPP" But you said many angels sinned (Gen 6) Dave" Yep – they are led by yester ra – the desire to procreate – as all BEAST are commanded ROB" This is big problem, but brevity Dave fails to explain. I thought angels only have yester tov? – Correct angelic spirits are only (yester tov)Really Dave you speak riddles? And you did not answer my question. Your attempt to pervert the discussion is rejected You already know my answer – you just misrepresent me so you can argue against yourself The BEAST (demonic, serpent race, Jinn, archon, shedim) spirits have (yester ra) as all BEAST doWhy does Dave speak of "Yep – they are led by yester ra – the desire to procreate – as all BEAST are commanded" Can't you stick to the question I asked? Can angels sin? You said yes, now you say no? Again – the answer = Gen 6:1-4 – but you deny the passageMumbo jumbo inventions of men, what about sticking to the torah as the Bible reads? "Punishment implies sin. If so, the above cited Midrash implies that angels can indeed and in fact did sin". ROb" Mumbo jumbo inventions of men, what about sticking to the torah as the Bible reads? Repeat – the BEAST of Gen 6:1-4 – the archon of Gen 6:1-4 are led by yester ra – the desire to procreate – as all BEAST are commanded" Fathering the demi-god Nephilim was a violation of the commandment to reproduce after your own kind They are punished – Jude 1:6 locked away in prison held in chains awaiting final judgment-------------------------------------------- Rabbi Yeshaya Halevi Horowitz in his classic Shnei Luchot HaBrit (Shelah), provides an explanation. He concedes that angels do not have an evil inclination and, therefore, cannot sin in the conventional meaning of the word, ROB" No wonder Dave is like he is, the Jews have different definitions of sin for creatures without free will, but sin. I have asked you over and over to present your list of commandments for the archon You offer no answer – except make the 10 Commandments for man universal AND offer even more non-answers when asked about God violating those Commandments ------------------------------- Sure glad of the Ezekiel 28 The verse says cherub chata, that is easy to read.Yep – and you and Ellen White try to build those two words onto a satan-centric religion------------------------------------ "An angel is not merely a robot; it is something like a robot with its own intelligence. Perhaps the best analogy would be one of those androids in sci-fi which have their own intelligence and yet are incapable of deliberately doing something contrary to the function for which they were designed—but nevertheless make mistakes. Rob" So now GOD writes program functions in angels that occasionally makes mistakes. Really??? This is exactly your Ellen White teaching – God created perfection – then it rebelled, hates, and opposes God’s right to rule the universe God made a mistake ---------------------------------- Additionally, Rabbi Yonatan Eibishitz11 explains that there are two types of sins. The first is the most common kind, a sin that comes through the evil inclination enticing us to do wrong. But there is another sort of sin which does not come through the evil inclination; on the contrary, this sin is transgressed out of "holiness." ROB" How nice an invented definition of sin as well. So – Ellen White teaching all sin is deliberate and intentional No such thing as an unintentional sin according to you You say lying is a sin – yet you lie here If you wife asks you – does she look fat? – what do you say? You fall asleep at the wheel and accidently kill a child You speak a lot about a sin-offering but do not know its purpose – Korbats ================== Dave" Every creed that you posted all say - One God in 3 persons Dose not say multiple people working together to = one god ROB" I wonder why that is? you fail to understand what a unit means? Why is it so importatant to you to deny 5000 years of Jewish teaching and 2000 years of Judeo-Christian teaching that there is ONLY ONE GODJust what joy or satisfaction do you get trying to tear down Judeo-Christian principles? What god do you serve?---------------------------------- If God is three Persons, does this mean that each Person is “one-third” of God? Does the Trinity mean that God is divided into three parts?ROB" Why don't we think of elohiym powers as a family power? There is ONY ONE GOD / mono – a family = 2 or more different individuals – polyHow is God one? He is one in essence. How is God three? He is three in Person. Essence and person are not the same thing. God is one in a certain way (essence) and three in a different way (person). Since God is one in a different way than He is three, the Trinity is not a contradiction. Correct = essence / spirit – a concept you rejectThere would only be a contradiction if we said that God is three not one. Yes your teaching make it contradictory and you like that way --------------------------------- So a closer look at the fact that God is one in essence but three in person has helped to show why the Trinity is not a contradiction. But how does it show us why there is only one God instead of three? It is very simple: Yep – simple Father – that no man can possible see The Holy Spirit – the Essence of God the Spirit of God Christ – the image of God All three Persons are one God because, as we saw above, they are all the same essence. Essence means the same thing as “being.” Thus, since God is only one essence, He is only one being, not three. This should make it clear why it is so important to understand that all three Persons are the same essence. For if we deny this, we have denied God’s unity and affirmed that there is more than one being of God (i.e., that there is more than one God).ROB" Mumbo jumbo explanations. God – Holy Spirit – Christ = all the same substance - homogenious God – Holy Spirit – Christ = all the same ethereal essence - homogenious God – Holy Spirit – Christ = all the same spirit – homogenious God – Holy Spirit – Christ = all the same ruwach – homogenious
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. A creature kind, elohiym creature. Is the cainus kind one being? Yes, but two personalities of loving. The female is not a different kind to the male cainus kind.You try to teach God is corporeal biology- rejectedBut if each person is fully God and has all of God’s being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others.ROB" Hmmm? I beg to differ. The functional attributes of love and loving in each member of elohiym power is different. Main stream churches do not understand there are two Hebrew words for love. Robert does not understand that God exist in two natures - male / femaleROB" So Jews see GOD with female and male modes. What Jews call the duality of the Most High Robert cannot remember what he posted yesterday
The Trinity is not belief in three gods. There is only one God, and we must never stray from this. This one God exists as three Persons. The three Persons are not each part of God, but are each fully God and equally God. Yep – I agree============================ Dave" why the new word QUICKENED? Do you know? ROb" I am not buying into your brevity Dave. The word quickened is chayah, meaning living.I am not buying into your brevity Rob – the word =
G2227 – ζωοποιέω - zōopoieōFrom the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken. Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Dave" why the new word QUICKENED? Do you know?
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Post by rob on Nov 24, 2023 1:12:12 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" Way to pervert the discussion – we are talking about the Spirit dwelling within manRob" The verse does NOT say this: I submit Rabbi Schneider discoveringthejewishjesus.com/the-true-meaning/And he speaks not of the spirit as you say:- " The two things I want to point out here are: First, we learn from Yeshua’s Words, in these verses, that most of His communication with the Father was not out loud so that others could hear it. In this instance, He spoke out loud so that His disciples would understand His connection and relationship with Father. Secondly, we can see (from John 11: 41, 42) that Yeshua was in perfect union with the Father. He knew God always heard Him, whether He spoke out loud or silently from His heart. Jesus participated continually in a personal and silent dialogue with His Father, God. The Son maintained a perpetual state of fellowship with His heavenly Father. ROB:" Not as Dave's says, Christ is an expression of the Father. " God’s Law reflects to us who He is.
Understanding the Law enables us to discern good from evil, wrong from right, and good from bad. And in that discernment, we are trained how to follow the Spirit in Messiah Jesus. Not as those that are under the Law, or as those that are trying to work out our salvation through the Law. But understanding the Law gives us glimpses into God’s character and nature. And as we know God’s character and nature, it gives us better discernment and clarity as we are being led by the Spirit.
Beloved, let’s not make the mistake of thinking that the Law has no relevance today. On the contrary – there is tremendous value. There are incredible riches and nuggets of truth that we can uncover and receive through knowing God’s Law. God’s Law is still valid, meaningful, and important today.
“So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good” (Romans 7:12).
“But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully” (1 Timothy 1:8)."
"Jesus was talking about our first (natural) birth and a second (spiritual) birth. The first birth happens when we were birthed into this world from our mother’s womb – we were born in the flesh. But at the second birth, when we receive Jesus, we literally receive the substance of God’s Spirit. God’s Spirit literally comes inside us, and when that happens we receive another nature. We are given God’s own character because His Spirit comes and inhabits us." ROB" Not GOD in communion with our spark-spirit, but t he Father's spirit literally comes inside of us, the character of the Father is repoduced in us as His love. Dave" You try to teach that all angles, spirits of any type, demons and man are just the HSROb" Not HS, but the " spirit of the Father" guides us, empowers us and talks in communion with us humans. The HS is just a medium, who brings the Father's spirit to us. ------------------- Dave" Correct angelic spirits are only (yester tov) Dave" Your attempt to pervert the discussion is rejected You already know my answer – you just misrepresent me so you can argue against yourself The BEAST (demonic, serpent race, Jinn, archon, shedim) spirits have (yester ra) as all BEAST doROB" FUNNY off track Dave is at it again, my friend why can't you stick to the topic and the questions at hand. You said angels sin, now you say angels can't sin, and now you say angels don't have yester ra, so why would an angel do yester ra and have sex with woman in Gen 6 ? I have read Rabbi Jews who speak of two defintions of sin, how nice to prevert the Scriptures into moral sin with free will and naturally wandering off without free will. Really another invention from the precepts of men. Dave" Repeat – the BEAST of Gen 6:1-4 – the archon of Gen 6:1-4 are led by yester ra – the desire to procreate – as all BEAST are commanded" Fathering the demi-god Nephilim was a violation of the commandment to reproduce after your own kind They are punished – Jude 1:6 locked away in prison held in chains awaiting final judgmentROB" Funny I thought these are angels who sin, but do not really sin, they wandered off track, but DAVE SEE them as the Beast Archons? I thought they are angels? How can this be a word game, when archons do not exist as creatures, and I have yet to read of them in any writings of the torah? Dave" I have asked you over and over to present your list of commandments for the archon You offer no answer – except make the 10 Commandments for man universal AND offer even more non-answers when asked about God violating those CommandmentsROB" no point when Rabbi make up stuff beyond the Moses torah account? " Rabbi Yeshaya Halevi Horowitz in his classic Shnei Luchot HaBrit (Shelah), provides an explanation. He concedes that angels do not have an evil inclination and, therefore, cannot sin in the conventional meaning of the word," Really Jewish stuff like this is not from Scripture is it? Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: So there is no point discussing matters with you, when Jews make up stuff and do not stick to Sola Scriptoria. ROB-PP " Sure glad of the Ezekiel 28 The verse says cherub chata, that is easy to read. Dave" Yep – and you and Ellen White try to build those two words onto a satan-centric religionROB" Well at least we read Hebrew, and the Hebrew only as coming from true prophets, not the precepts and traditions of men. Dave" This is exactly your Ellen White teaching – God created perfection – then it rebelled, hates, and opposes God’s right to rule the universe God made a mistake ROB" No God didn't make a mistake. Here is how the message is penned: To many minds the origin of sin and the reason for its existence are a source of great perplexity. They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is “the transgression of the law;” it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government.
m.egwwritings.org/en/book/132.2227#2232Dave" So – Ellen White teaching all sin is deliberate and intentional No such thing as an unintentional sin according to youROB" I have spent many hours reading Jewish material, Why don't you try to read the above link and learn what God's messenger wrote. Dave" Why is it so importatant to you to deny 5000 years of Jewish teaching and 2000 years of Judeo-Christian teaching that there is ONLY ONE GODROb" You assume prior to Abraham, that Noah and Adam saw elohiym power as yaciyd? They saw elohiym as echad. The Hebrew word meanings are very different. The former means "only one", the latter "oneness one". Dave" Just what joy or satisfaction do you get trying to tear down Judeo-Christian principles?ROb" I suspect the Opposer has torn Hebrew people down, with this change from echad to yaciyd view of elohiym power. This is especially true if false prophets lead Israel instead of true prophets. How many of the false prophets lived in the OT times? Dave" What god do you serve? Rob" Mt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. Mt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Dave" There is ONY ONE GOD / mono – a family = 2 or more different individuals – polyROB" You cannot have "sharing, caring, trusting and having faith in, and even talking" unless you have two or more persons of the same kind who are equally as you are.
So a yaciyd Father cannot do any of these things, but a echad Father can because the powers are relational the many function as a unit of oneness. Dave" Yes your teaching make it contradictory and you like that way
ROB" So you have a yaciyd Father, I have an echad Father.
Your Father has only selfish love, my Father is selfless love
Your Father is alone, my Father is a family of divinity. If your theories were true, why is Mt Sinai NOT one yaciyd peak? When in fact Mt Sinai has two echad peaks? (Photo from Kim Young) Dave" You try to teach God is corporeal biology- rejectedROb" You can't even read my theology and stick to my facts. God is not biology. The divine family functions with love. A function does not have to be biology. Duh. What's wrong with biology anyhow? Jesus is encapsulated with biology as the Son of Man? Dave" Robert does not understand that God exist in two natures - male / femaleROB" You just said the Father is not corporeal biology. So explain how male and female expressions work? Dave" Yep – I agreeRob" How can you agree? This one God exists as three Persons.Not exist as three expressions of the one being, who can show two persons of expression, male and female.
Dave" Dave" why the new word QUICKENED? Do you know?Rob" It's not a new word, it means "living". Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life "chayah". Ps 71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, Ps 80:18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, Ps 119:88 ¶ Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; Ps 143:11 Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: You are so wrong Dave. Lucky for me the KJV translates chayah as quicken.... it's an old Hebrew word meaning. Shalom ==================== Ge 22:2 And he said <'amar>, Take now <laqach> thy son <ben>, thine only <yachiyd> son Isaac <Yitschaq>, whom thou lovest <'ahab>, and get thee "walk" <yalak> into the land <'erets> of Moriah <Mowriyah>; and offer him <`alah> there for a burnt offering <`olah> upon one <'echad> of the mountains <har> which I will tell <'amar> thee of. In the first place of the Torah we see the KJV translating nearly all the words of Hebrew correctly, including the first time "ahab" is found in the Bible. Notice yachiyd means cardinally one, and echad means "one of many", in this case the oneness of mountain peaks. The context of "ahab" is to offer your cardinally one son, who came to you from a promise of God, through the miracles of child birth, despite Abram and Sari being beyond the biological age for a functioning womb. =============== Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Cahn " The Israel-Hamas conflict has launched an armada of bad takes. Jonathan Cahn — an influential “messianic rabbi” who once prayed over Donald Trump at Mar-a-Lago — is late to the party,"...
There are actually 3 primary colors in a rainbow: red, yellow, and blue. Three is another significant number in Scripture. When you are baptized, it is done in the name of the triune God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit); Yeshua rose on the third day! The ancient temple had three sections (the outer court, the holy place, and the Holy of Holies), and there are 3 patriarchs of the Hebrew Bible (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob). Notice the term "triune God" coming from a Rabbi ! Rabbi Schneider discoveringthejewishjesus.com/the-true-meaning/The enemy has intentionally gone after this sacred symbol of God’s covenant because he hates God. Satan has attempted to pervert a symbol of innocence into something perverse and foul. And we, the Church, have been passive, asleep and in denial about the stakes at hand.ROB A rabbi speaks of Satan as an enemy who hates GOD WOW. Rob found a Rabbi who says the Opposer opposes GOD. " There are dangers and threats in this world, as we all know. We are facing difficult times, and beloved, as long as we are on earth – we will continue to. But as we move through the darkness and the enemy’s ploys, know that we are protected – Father has our back; His power is upon our lives, the blood of Yeshua is surrounding us, and Father is watching over us as the apple of His eye. Fathers protect, and you, my beloved child of the Creator of the universe – are indeed protected." ROB " The apple of Father's eye. Sometimes I just love the Rabbi's sometimes, and their gems. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 24, 2023 2:23:46 GMT -5
Dave" Way to pervert the discussion – we are talking about the Spirit dwelling within man Rob" The verse does NOT say this: I submit Rabbi Schneider discoveringthejewishjesus.com/the-true-meaning/ And he speaks not of the spirit as you say:- Now you deny the NT Comforter promised by Jesus ChristThe Son maintained a perpetual state of fellowship with His heavenly Father. Yep - because Christ = God – even you admit itRobPP" ROb" Christ is eternal. He is YHWH ROb" I have always presented this. ROB" So Jews see GOD with female and male modes. What Jews call the duality of the Most High Trinity = God - male / female + God = Christ ---------------------------------------------- Dave" Correct angelic spirits are only (yester tov) The BEAST (demonic, serpent race, Jinn, archon, shedim) spirits have (yester ra) as all BEAST do ROB" FUNNY off track Dave is at it again, my friend why can't you stick to the topic and the questions at hand. You said angels sin, - Yep bad-guy archon MESSENGERS of gen 6:1-4NOT PLAYING YOUR WORD GAME------------------------------- Dave" Sure glad of the Ezekiel 28 The verse says cherub chata, that is easy to read. Yep – and you and Ellen White try to build those two words onto a satan-centric religion ROB" Well at least we read Hebrew, and the Hebrew only as coming from true prophets, not the precepts and traditions of men. Yet – after 4 years you cannot present one supporting verse All you have is an assumption – anyone opposing man is opposing God -------------------------------------------------- Dave" This is exactly your Ellen White teaching – God created perfection – then it rebelled, hates, and opposes God’s right to rule the universe God made a mistake ROB" No God didn't make a mistake. OH – now you want to say God made your satan god on purpose? What happened to – your satan rebels out of pride, hates and opposes God’s right to rule the universe?-------------------------- Dave" Why is it so importatant to you to deny 5000 years of Jewish teaching and 2000 years of Judeo-Christian teaching that there is ONLY ONE GOD ROb" You assume prior to Abraham, that Noah and Adam saw elohiym power as yaciyd? They saw elohiym as echad. The Hebrew word meanings are very different. The former means "only one", the latter "oneness one". So – answer the question – why is it so important for you to deny there is one true God?------------------------------------ Dave" Just what joy or satisfaction do you get trying to tear down Judeo-Christian principles? ROb" I suspect the Opposer has torn Hebrew people down, So – you admit it – you are attempting to please your satan god by tearing down scriptureDave" What god do you serve? Thank you for answering a question honestly finallyDave" There is ONY ONE GOD / mono – a family = 2 or more different individuals – poly ROB" You cannot have "sharing, caring, trusting and having faith in, and even talking" unless you have two or more persons of the same kind who are equally as you are. Why don’t you answer the question – what is Christian Grace? YES - why don't you answer questions?------------------------------------- Dave" Dave" why the new word QUICKENED? Do you know? Rob" It's not a new word, it means "living". Ps 71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, Explain how God makes you alive twice?Ps 80:18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, Are these dead people asking to be made alive?Ps 119:88 ¶ Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; Is this a dead person asking to be made alive?Ps 143:11 Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: How does God make a grown man – who is alive - alive?You are so wrong Dave. Lucky for me the KJV translates chayah as quicken.... it's an old Hebrew word meaning.You still have not told us what the definition is?==================== Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Cahn Notice the term "triune God" coming from a Rabbi ! DUH – he is a Messianic Jew Rabbi Schneider discoveringthejewishjesus.com/the-true-meaning/(wiki) Jews for Jesus is an international Christian missionary organization headquartered in San Francisco, California that is affiliated with the Messianic Jewish religious movement. The group is known for its proselytism of Jews Jews for Jesus = a Christian movement (of X-Jews) to convert Jews to Christ and Christianity Messianic Jewish = emerged in the 1960s and 1970s from the earlier Hebrew Christian movement, It is a Jewish movement to recognize Jesus Christ as the Messiah When are you going to start answering questions? Why is it so important to you to deny there is One True God?Is this how your Ellen White faith (support) works – deny God and Scripture – to maintain satan as a god?
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Post by rob on Nov 24, 2023 17:59:13 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Happy Sabbath' Dave" Yet – after 4 years you cannot present one supporting verse ... All you have is an assumption – anyone opposing man is opposing GodROB: " Rabbi Schneider discovering thejewishjesus.com/the-true-meaning/ " The enemy has intentionally gone after this sacred symbol of God’s covenant because he hates God. Satan has attempted to pervert a symbol of innocence into something perverse and foul". So this Rabbi says " Satan hates GOD" and "S atan has attempted to pervert things good into things foul". And Daves response to this reading was "(wiki) Jews for Jesus is an international Christian missionary organization headquartered in San Francisco, California that is affiliated with the Messianic Jewish religious movement." Rob" So is this Rabbi a valid Rabbi or not? No answer from Dave. And Dave simply asks " When are you going to start answering questions? Why is it so important to you to deny there is One True God?
Rob replies" I have answered all your questions. When are you going to answer my questions I have put towards you? I do not deny the one true elohiym power. Here is two Messanic emails this week, both affirm my support, and speak directly against your view:- Messanic" In fact, we find that God's love is often expressed using a metaphor of marriage. At the giving of the law, Mount Sinai becomes the chuppah (wedding canopy) and the Torah becomes the ketubah (marriage contract). God's relationship with Israel is a true love story. "I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice, in lovingkindness and in compassion, and I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know [yada] the LORD." (Hosea 2:19-20) This tender verse in Hosea reveals God's intent: He wants us to yada (know) Adonai. Yada means to know intimately, to perceive, to understand and experience. To know God means that we experience Him intimately.ROB" Yes indeed eloihym power is a metaphor of a wedding, why is that? Because we have a divine family power over humans, demonstrating the function of true marriage. How can one being demonstrate marriage, when marriage denotes two personalities of loving ? I also love the way the Messanic state "yada" means "To know God means that we experience Him intimately." Yes correct. How does a single being show faith and thus show intimacy if He is all alone by Himself? Not possible. Faith means to support another (see Exodus 17:12), so how can one being show support to Himself? Create an expression of himself? No this is a fake pretence of role playing. Only an independent son who carries the Father's words of power in his own heart, is a perfect example of supporting His Father and showing to humans what faith means. The word "persons of elohiym" and "personhood" refer to independent persons, who volunteer to become a unit of oneness. I presented to you Mt Sinai is not a yaciyd peak but a echad peak of two peaks showing oneness when viewed from a distance. Proof elohiym is echad, is because Mt Sinai is echad peaks. " Jabal Maqla, has blackened peaks as if scorched by the sun or fire, and lies near Nuweiba Beach, where scientists have found land paths underneath the water, where God would have parted the waters for Moses and the Israelites." (Courtesy Dr David Kim, a doctor in 1978 for the Jordan prince). In fact the oneness principle of echad is found all throughout the Scriptures, is totally denied by Dave, and the Jews, who see echad meaning one, like Yaciyd means one. A Hebrew word does not have the same word meanings, as another Hebrew word. " Rabbi Ebn Leader of the Hebrew College Rabbinical School underscores the difficulty to obey, by choice, the Shema's command that "you shall love the Lord your God." "We cannot be commanded to 'fall in love' as we commonly use that phrase. But we can be commanded to open ourselves to the possibility of love in practical ways," Leader writes. "We can begin to cultivate love for God by committing ourselves to investing in the relationship and creating time for intimacy." Intimacy, according to Merriam-Webster, means familiarity—a knowledge of a person's character, likes and dislikes, preferences, vision, hopes and dreams. Children close to their parents, especially at a young age, are significantly inclined to mimic their parents' traits and habits. ROB" Elohiym power has to be a relationship of members in a divine family. This is reflected in the principles of love:- Ex 20:12 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. We humans are commanded to respect our earthly parents, as we also respect out heavenly parents, spoken by the YHWH who is a SON of His heavenly parents, but was not brought forth like a human son is brought forth, because the great uncaused cause is not of biology or of matter or of spirit or of space, but of divinity. " In a similar way, times of intimacy with God increase our knowledge of Him and His character and prompt us to live out His character—as Yeshua did. "We know that we have come to know Him if we keep His commands. Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys His word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in Him: Whoever claims to live in Him must live as Yeshua did." (1 John 2:3-6) Intimacy with God as Our Friend In the Tanakh, Abraham is the only person that God directly calls His friend (Isaiah 41:8), while He honors Moses with a new distinction: "With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the Lord." (Numbers 12:8) Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel <Yisra'el>, art my servant <`ebed>, Jacob <Ya`aqob> whom I have chosen <bachar>, the seed <zera`> of Abraham <'Abraham> my friend <'ahab>. We cannot love our Heavenly Father and Friend with such Abrahamic faith through our own strength. Only with the help of the Ruach HaKodesh— Holy Spirit of God Himself dwelling inside of us—can we experience such intimate, eternal love as would a friend, a child, and a Bride of a covenant-keeping Bridegroom. ROB" Notice how the Messanics write this arrangement, not as three expressions of the Father, but as a marriage model of love and being loved, by members of a divine family. Notice the HS carries the presence of the Father dwelling inside of us, is the words of the Messanics. They write this as a simile of intimacy as a simile of a child, a bride and a marriage. All these examples are relational, because a divine family is also relational, but a single being is not relational. " The Spirit of Yeshua in us—those He has redeemed out of "slavery under the elemental spiritual forces" (Galatians 4:3)—carries the confidence of sonship in the family, the house and the Kingdom of God, and therefore intimacy with God. "Because you are His sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, 'Abba, Father.' So you are no longer a slave, but God's child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir." (Galatians 4:6-7; see also Romans 8:16) It is God's intention to restore intimacy with us so in that full legal standing as God's sons and daughters, we who follow Yeshua can be confident that "neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Messiah Yeshua our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)ROb" If we are truly children of the divine parents, than we can expect to find Jesus is truly a son of the divine parent too. Otherwise this marriage, children model is fake and a role playing simile that is posing deception to humans about love and loving. SO Dave, your elohiym power is a unit based on echad, oneness not a cardinal one being, based on yaciyd, solitary and alone. ----------------------------------------- Second Messanic email " Laban, however, was not the model father-in-law, nor was he an honest, upright businessman. Not only did Laban trick Jacob into first marrying Rachel’s older sister, Leah, but Laban also tried to cheat Jacob out of his fair wages several times. Laban's name in Hebrew means “white.” Names in Biblical times often revealed the character and destiny of the name bearer and, in Laban's case, there may have been a connection to leprosy. Regardless, we must be wise and discern a person's character, not being deceived by someone that appears to be clean or pure, since even the devil himself can appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14).Rob" Notice the messanics write the devil as an angel of light, deceiving humans. They do not write about archon beasts or other creatures they cannot fathom, they term the devil as an angel of light, but obviously is an angel of darkness who sins. Dave" NOT PLAYING YOUR WORD GAMERob" I see. {I will re-read your previous posts (PP) and see what we have missed between us } ROB-PP" Prove to me a "medium" is a body that talks, walk and moves all by itself? Dave-PP" What do angels do – if they do not exist – cannot speak – or move by themselves?Rob notices" you fail to read my question correctly. Not talking about angels (cherub) but about mediums that can move and talk, your theory about the "spark-spirit" which does not exist. DavePP"OK - I'll play your game - you say angels function as mediumROb replies" you can understand OK when it suits you. DavePP" What is the spirit of God? You deny that spirit even exist – impossible you say.Rob replies" Only with the help of the Ruach HaKodesh— Holy Spirit of God Himself dwelling inside of us—can we experience such intimate, eternal love as would a friend, a child, and a Bride of a covenant-keeping Bridegroom. The Messanics answer the "spirit of the Father" nicely. It is the seeds of love implanted within the human heart, through free will asking for this daily through faith in the Father's words of love. That is receiving the " spirit of the Father" , the " medium of the Father", the things of the Father, the Father wishes to give us, His love as a gift. ROBPP" ANswer my question- Does the "spirit-spark" even require a body ? DavePP" The spirit body = ethereal not corporealROb replies" Dave never answers my questions. I asked Dave why does the Father require a body? Why does the "spirit-sparks" given to humans, require a body? Dave never answered ny question. Of course the body of the Father is not biology, not a "spirit" either, whatever that word means, not "ethereal" either, whatever that term means. There is not a single Hebrew word describing the shape of the Father. Yet Dave is happy to invent the idea that "spark-spirits" exist, and have "ethereal bodies". Again not a single verse proves your theories, totally invented. RobPP" Again you do not read English very well do you? I asked what sinning does to creation....?Rob replies" Dave again cannot answer simple questions put to him. Spoilers spoil creation, they cannot help doing this until all of Creation ceases to exist. RobPP" In your view the Father is all alone, can thus cannot create a medium. DavePP" Nope – Trinity – the HS was never created – the HS = the Spirit of GodROb replies": How can the Father's left hand expression exist if this expression is not created by the Father? Why do you make the term "ruwach" the same word meaning as "ruwach elohiym". These terms are not the same. In my view the "spirit of God" refers to the Father's flow of love. In my view the "medium" is a created function of the Shadday, who assists the Father in carrying his flow of power into a dysfunctional domain, where sinning creatures live. DavePP"Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit You deny spirit exist - you cannot possibly understand this verse using your current teachingRob replies" The term "spirit" refers to the "medium", something carried by something, in this case the HS carries the loving presence of the Father into humans who desire this love. The Messanics email write this so well, following my view:- " Only with the help of the Ruach HaKodesh— Holy Spirit of God Himself dwelling inside of us—can we experience such intimate, eternal love as would a friend, a child, and a Bride of a covenant-keeping Bridegroom"They do not write Dave's view:" Only with the help of the left hand expression of the Father, the Holy Spirit, does the Spirit of the Father dwell in humans, can we develop such intimate love, as the spirit expression is the Father Himself. (Surely oneness Pentecostals could write your views Dave, even though you don't like all they say?) Dave PP" Call them by any name you want - the REALITY OF THE ARCHON remains the same It is just a game for you to playROb replies" There are just two NT verses that use "archon" Dave 1Co 2:6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes "Archon" of this world, that come to nought: And Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince "archon" of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Notice "medium" is used here too, so the archon carries his powers into the humans via the medium, causing human to disobey God. What does "kosmokrator" mean Dave, used once in this verse Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities "arche" "beginnings", against powers, against the rulers "kosmokrator" of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Paul does not use "archon" as a ruler, but "kosmokrator" used once, here. This power rules from the beginning, the meaning of "arche". Does "beginning" refer to earth's beginning of Creation, or the "beginning" long before, such as beginnings in heaven, before the earth even existed? ======================= A Look at the Trinity From a Messianic Jewish Perspective by Jews for Jesus | July 03 1996 “ Hear, O Israel, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of faith; in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eye alone.…So it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by Adonai Eloheinu Adonai—three modes which yet form one unity.ROB: " Reading this again, seems to support Dave's idea that the Father shows three faces or modes of himself. " We must remind ourselves that Christian theology does not believe God to be a person. It believes Him to be such that in Him a trinity of persons is consistent with a unity of Deity. In that sense it believes Him to be something very different from a person, just as a cube, in which six squares are consistent with unity of the body, is different from a square. (Flatlanders, attempting to imagine a cube, would either imagine the six squares coinciding, and thus destroy their distinctness, or else imagine them set out side by side, and thus destroy the unity. Our difficulties about the Trinity are of much the same kind.)4ROB: " Reading this again, seems to support Dave's idea that the Father is NOT a person, nor has a personhood, but is three faces of the one being, and coming to earth are one of these faces, the left hand face is the HS, and the right hand face is Christ. Dave confirms my re-reading this Jewish material DavePP" What is weird – are you really that dull? God is not a person – He is so much more------------- RobPP" Question: Can other creatures sin ? Dave's answer is NO. Dave PP" You are a LIER – and I am sick of it Jude – sinning angels = Gen 6 1:4 – held in chainROb replies" Notice Dave writes "sinning angels" held in chain. ----------- RObPP " So in your view, the Ruwach is a Father feminine expression, not created. When you say the HS is a feminine expression of the Father, is not this expression created?Rob replies" both of these questions are not answered by Dave. I suspect the Father has always had three faces to this one being. Eze 1:6 And every one had four faces, Eze 1:8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. Notice the four living creatures....are they biological? the verses do not say, they look like a man with a man's hand, but also different with four different faces. Eze 1:14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. Notice an attribute of GOD, so does are their four living entities of God with four faces? During this vision, we have two Hebrew words describing things Eze 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings. We have the Shadday Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. We have the glory of YHWH. Question: why two descriptions of this power, presented as four living entities ? So if the Father is expressed as three faces, these faces are not a unit, because they are not persons, nor have personhood of their own, they are simply yaciyd being with three faces. So why the two descriptions of the vision as powers? Shadday and YHWH? ----------- RObPP "Moral Dualism *Gnosticism presents a peculiar combination of the two types of dualism: this world and our bodily existence, being characterized by evil, are the work of a lower, imperfect deity (the "demiurge" or creator), above whom there is a completely distinct, more transcendent and spiritual, good and "true" god. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/dualismRob replies" Dave did not comment on this Gnostic passage. The passage describes two gods, one above as the true god and one below as the imperfect deity working evil in our lower world. I thought Dave would hate this Zoroastrianism model? Jewish PP" But what of all the anthropomorphic terms that we encounter in Jewish sacred texts? God created out of free will and we are granted the ability to reason and a free will of our own, but there is no “family resemblance.ROb replies" Ezekiel describes the four living entities as a man's hand and a man's face as one of the faces. Why do Jews deny the descriptions of this vision? ------------ DavePP" Dave " Job is the best book to demonstrate that satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord and sometimes asked to do a dirty job When God called his angels together – satan came running to God – reporting in – YES SIR When God told Hebrew satan to test Job – Hebrew satan said YES SIR When God set limits for Hebrew satan – Hebrew satan said YES SIR Prove that Hebrew satan disobeyed God in any way How can Hebrew satan oppose God – when he is busy serving and obeying God? It is obvious to everyone all through history – until youRob replies" Rabbi Schneider does not agree with you, he agrees with me. He wrote" " The enemy has intentionally gone after this sacred symbol of God’s covenant because he hates God. Satan has attempted to pervert a symbol of innocence into something perverse and foul". So this Rabbi says Satan hates GOD and Satan has attempted to pervert things good into things foul". DavePP" If the shedin exist – then God made themRob replies" I see. But shedim is not a created creature, it is a functional description of created creatures. Shedim means "breast" and refers to a false flow of milky power from the creature. WHOM does the shedim refer to as a creature? Jews do not answer this question, and Dave ignores the question too. GOD would not create devil shedim, as Dave claims. God does not create sin. Isaiah 45 says God might on occasion create RA, the fruit of sin, but not the sin itself. Such function comes from creatures who choose to sin. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the shedim; for the shedim sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the shedim. So the shedim sins. Where do we find in the OT about shedim (a function of some creature) who sins, and two, must be sinning from the beginning, before man existed, otherwise the beginning word meaning is not correct? The answer is a verse Dave ignores. Ezekiel 28 Eze 28:16 ..thou hast sinned... O covering cherub Is the word "cherub" a function? No How can I tell? because the word is created Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. So the cherub sinned as a creature, making itself into a shedim, one that provides a false flow of milky power, called RA, the fruit of sinning. But this cannot technically exist in God's perfect world. No it cannot, hence God who is always at peace, has to create the RA in order for the sinning creature to see his own sinning in God's perfect domain. This is the only way to make sense of is 45:7 La 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Normally the Father does not allow a flow of RA in His perfect domain. Only good flows in the Father's domain normally. ----------------- I notice Dave's idea of trinity is hijacked from the mainstream idea of trinity. "a typical view is " Having seen that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, that they are each fully God, and that there is nonetheless only one God, we must conclude that all three Persons are the same God. In other words, there is one God who exists as three distinct Persons. But Dave's view is the Father is not a person, he is much more, a solitary being with three faces or three modes of the same being. This is NOT mainsteam view of trinity. Not even close.
Jews and Dave supports the idea the solitary being can show both masculine and feminine faces, but not at the same time? How does this work exactly? provider love and responder love? but not at the same time? Ge 24:67 And Isaac (he) loved <'ahab> her (Rebecca): meaning Isaac "maleness-loved" (provided) for Rebecca Ge 29:20 And Jacob ..for the love he had <'ahabah> to Rachel. meaning Jacob "femaleness-loved" Rachel. Can ONE being show both forms of loving at the same time? Jer 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved "maleness love" thee with an everlasting love "femaleness-love": Explain how ONE being can show both forms of loving at exactly the same time, simply by His Presence? Ho 3:1 ¶ Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love "maleness love" a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love "femaleness-love": of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love "maleness love" flagons of wine. Ho 11:4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, How can GOD love with femaleness love while GOD has a yoke upon the human jaw? ================= back to Dave's current post ================= Dave" OH – now you want to say God made your satan god on purpose? What happened to – your satan rebels out of pride, hates and opposes God’s right to rule the universe?Rob" you didn't read Ellen WHite did you? " It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it." No comments by Dave, only this twisted mocking. RObPP" You assume prior to Abraham, that Noah and Adam saw elohiym power as yaciyd? They saw elohiym as echad. The Hebrew word meanings are very different. The former means "only one", the latter "oneness one". And Dave's reply is Dave" So – answer the question – why is it so important for you to deny there is one true God?ROb" Is this even a reply? It is mocking again? Question: DId Abram see the term elohiym as echad or yaciyd? Adam Clarke comment: Verse 13. When God caused me to wander] Here the word Myhla Elohim is used with a plural verb, (weth hithu, caused me to wander,) which is not very usual in the Hebrew language, as this plural noun is generally joined with verbs in the singular number. Ge 20:13 And it came to pass, when Elohihym's caused me to wander (plural verb) from my father's house, ROB" Not a single translation is willing to translate this as above, as the plural verb demands. Why? Because this would admit that Abram knew of a divine family of power. Plurality in the word meaning of elohiym. Gordon write a lengthy comment on this:- "Elohim with Plural Verbs The first instance of Elohim with a plural verb is in Gen 20:13. In this passage Abraham explains to Abimelech how he plotted with Sarah to lie about her being his sister: "And it was when God caused me to wander (hit‘u oti Elohim יםִהֹלֱא יִתֹא עוְּתִה (from the house of my father, that I said to her, this is the righteousness that you shall do with me, to every place which we come, say about me, he is my brother" The phrase "God caused me to wander" hit‘u oti Elohim יםִהֹלֱא יִתֹא עוְּתִה has the plural verb hit‘u ?עוְּתִ meaning "they caused to wander" (hif‘il past 3rd pl ת.ע.ה.(. So contrary to the expected rule of Elohim getting a singular verb, here Elohim gets a plural verb. Because of this plural verb, we could literally translate this phrase "gods caused me to wander". From this verse alone it indeed appears that Abraham worshipped multiple gods whom he believed had caused him to wander from his father's house. However, this hardly fits the overall picture.
ROB" Why doesn't it fit the overall picture? Why can't elohiym be a family power term? In Gen 24 Abraham again refers to God taking him from his father's house and this time the verb accompanying Elohim is singular: "YHWH, the Elohim of heaven, who took me (lekachani יִנַחָקְל (from the house of my father, and from my birthplace, and who spoke (diber רֶבִּדּ (to me, and who swore (nishba‘ עַבּ ְשִׁנ (to me saying, to your seed I will give this land" (Gen 24:7) In this passage Elohim is accompanied by three singular verbs: lekachani יִנַחָקְל" He took me", diber רֶבִּדּ" He spoke", and nishba‘ עַבּ ְשִׁנ" He swore". So when Abraham talks about YHWH taking him from his father's house in Gen 20 he refers to Him as a numerical plural but in Gen 24 he refers to Him as a numerical singular. How can we explain this paradox?
ROB" easy, in a family one can refer to the family as a whole, ie singular, or the various members within, also singular, or reference two members within, ie plural. " Some exegetes, desperate to make sense of this difficult passage, have suggested that Abraham was speaking about YHWH in the plural because he was addressing Abimelech, an idolater who worshipped many gods. This explanation might work, were this the only time that we found Elohim accompanied by a plural verb. However, in Gen 35:7 we find a second instance of this phenomenon. In this passage, we read about how Jacob built an altar at Bethel after his vision of the ladder: "And he built there an altar and called the place, El Bet El, because there God revealed himself (pl) to him (niglu elav "brother his from fled he when) נִגְלוּ אֵלָיו הָאֱלֹהִים elohim’ha The phrase "God revealed himself (pl) to him" (niglu elav ha’elohim יםִהֹלֱאָה יוָלֵא לוְּגִנ (has the plural verb niglu לוְּגִנ meaning "they revealed themselves" or alternatively "they were revealed" (nif‘al past 3rd pl ג.ל.ה.(. We could literally translate this phrase as "the gods revealed themselves to him".
ROB" What's wrong with that? The Family power is composed of Strong Authorities, wrongly translated as gods. Again, we find Elohim accompanied by a plural verb contrary to the expected rule for a majestic plural. Here we can hardly say that someone is trying to speak in the terms of an idolater since it is the narrator (Moses) himself who says these words. From these two verses in Genesis we might conclude that God is a plurality. Yet we cannot ignore the fact that in Genesis alone the word Elohim, referring to YHWH, gets singular verbs, adjectives, or pronouns some 157 times and only in these two instances does it receive plural verbs. At the same time, there is only one other instance in the entire Tanach of Elohim getting a plural verb. The third instance of Elohim getting a plural verb appears in 2 Samuel 7:23 where David prays to YHWH: "And who is like Your (sg) people (che‘amcha ךְָמַּעְכ (Israel, even one nation in the earth, whom Elohim (they) went (halchu כוְּלָה (to redeem for Himself (lo לוֹ (as a people" In this verse David boasts that Israel is unique because God redeemed the Israelites for Himself, that is, he metaphorically paid their redemption price, thereby purchasing Israel as His own. The phrase "whom Elohim went to redeem" contains the plural verb halchu כוְּלָה meaning "they went", that is "Elohim (they) went" rather than the expected singular verb halach לַָהְך" Elohim (he) went". Here again it appears that Elohim receives a plural verb contrary to the expected rule for majestic plural. However, in this passage we also find Elohim referred to as a numerical singular. David says che‘amcha ךְָמַּעְכ" like Your people". In Hebrew the word "your" is expressed by a "possessive suffix" attached to the end of a word. But unlike English, Hebrew actually has four different words or suffixes for "your" depending on whether the "your" in question is masculine or feminine and singular or plural: Four Types of "Your" in Hebrew singular plural כֶם- chem- ָך- cha- masculine כֶן- chen- ְך- ach- feminine All four Hebrew suffixes translate into English as "your" but in Hebrew we can know based on which suffix is used whether the "your" in question is singular or plural. Now David refers to Elohim as "Your" with the masculine singular suffix -cha -?ָ. Were Elohim a numerical plural David would have referred to Him as "Your" with the plural suffix -chem -?םֶ. When David refers to Elohim as "your" with the singular suffix -cha -ךָ it is clear that he understands YHWH to be a numerical singular. Again in this same verse, David says that Elohim has redeemed Israel "for Himself (lo לוֹ (as a people". The Hebrew word lo לוֹ" for Himself" also makes it clear that David thinks of Elohim as a singular. Were Elohim meant as a plural David would have said that Elohim redeemed Israel "for themselves" lahem םֶהָל. Since David did not say this we must conclude that he understood Elohim to be a numerical singular.
Our conclusion about Elohim being a numerical singular in David's prayer is confirmed by the Book of Chronicles. Chronicles repeats many of the accounts reported in Samuel and Kings, often slightly paraphrasing them. In 1Chr 17:21 David's prayer appears word for word but with a slight difference: "And who is like Your people Israel, even one nation in the earth, whom Elohim (he) went (halach ךְַלָה (to redeem for Himself a people" In the Chronicler's paraphrase of David's prayer, the phrase "whom Elohim went to redeem for Himself" no longer has the plural verb halchu כוְּלָה" they went", but instead has the singular verb halach ךְַלָה" He went". So the Chronicler understood David as referring to a numerical singular Elohim and this is reflected in his paraphrase of David's prayer. Clearly Elohim is a numerical singular, even in David's prayer in which it receives a plural verb. But the basic question still remains. Why are there these three instances in the Tanach where Elohim receives a plural verb? The fact that David clearly meant to express Elohim as a numerical singular only heightens this questions. Let us remember that the rule of Elohim receiving a singular verb does actually work in some 2000 instances and the three verses just mentioned are the only exceptions in the entire Tanach. So why would a majestic plural, which expresses a numerical singular and which is supposed to receive a singular verb, nevertheless receive a plural verb? Is it because Elohim is both a plurality and a singularity at the same time? Could it be that these three anomalous verses hint at some great mystery about the paradoxical and contradictory nature of God? Or is there a much simpler, linguistic explanation?"
ROB" Gordon does not allow three verses to overrule the 2000 verses where eloihym is singular in power. The simplest answer is that the word elohiym refers to a family power. Aaron and Moses was a family elohiym power Judges are family powers from the bar God is a family divine power Pagan deities all come from family models of power. Gen 3:20 defines any creatures that sins knowing both good and evil as a family power. If that is true, where is the family deities of the Opposer? Hmm? Without studying this I would propose such models do exist, so now people can falsify my hypothesis. Dave" Why don’t you answer the question – what is Christian Grace? YES - why don't you answer questions?ROb" I have answered this, why don't you talk more? A solitary Father cannot show " sharing, caring, trusting and having faith in, and even talking" unless you have two or more persons of the same kind who are equally as you are. NOT a single comment from Dave. Dave" Ps 71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, Explain how God makes you alive twice?
Ps 71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth. The term chayah here refers to the breath of salvation, making humans condemned to death kept alive by grace for a probation time, to become alive and living under grace for eternity, as long as we have faith in our Saviour (a long sentence meaning 'breath of salvation')
chay is to me kept alive by the breath of life from the father chayah is the breath of salvation from Jesus, who dies for our sins, and offers the breath of the Father for eternity, to those who love Him. Ps 80:18 as above Ps 119:88 as above Ps 143:11 as above Dave" You still have not told us what the definition is?Rob" the empowered chayah is brand new in the sense after Jesus died and rose, does true chayah take affect. The OT lived under a promise of chayah, the NT lives in the truest enactment Dave" When are you going to start answering questions? Why is it so important to you to deny there is One True God?ROb" Yes when are you trying to answer my questions? I re-read many of them in previous posts. try answering them Now also discuss Gordons claim about plural nouns.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 25, 2023 8:46:02 GMT -5
Dave" Yet – after 4 years you cannot present one supporting verse ... All you have is an assumption – anyone opposing man is opposing God ROB: " Rabbi Schneider discovering thejewishjesus.com/the-true-meaning/ So this Rabbi says "Satan hates GOD" and "Satan has attempted to pervert things good into things foul". And Daves response to this reading was "(wiki) Jews for Jesus is an international Christian missionary organization headquartered in San Francisco, California that is affiliated with the Messianic Jewish religious movement." Rob" So is this Rabbi a valid Rabbi or not? No answer from Dave. I am going to answer you as honestly as I can – I mean every word I post1- Everyone here understands you love for Ellen White and her satan god What is not clear is why? 2- You are truly indoctrinated into a cult of personality Ellen White is more valuable to you the scripture 3- OR – you are using her false teachings to attack mainstream Christianity A – for fun – your personal entertainment to mock scripture out of contempt B – OR – you truly are a satanic plant The entire point here = the teaching of Jesus Christ, His Disciples, and His immediate followers BEFORE – the Gospel of Jesus Christ was modified into Roman Catholic CatechismThe challenge to you since the very beginning1- precept upon precept, line upon line – validate your Ezk 28 Catholic satan god from scriptureI have asked you to go through each line of scripture and demonstrate how your satan god rebels, hates, or opposes God. INSTEAD – each time you even try you just get frustrated and offer your assumption – anyone opposing man opposes God 2- OR – you were to provide me pre-Roman evidence of you Ezk 28 satan godINSTEAD – you offer me 2010 Rabbi Apple who specializes in Christian/Jew/Muslim interfaith appoligestist NOW – you offer Rabbi Schneider of a 1960s Jewish Christian Outreach Ministry You claim you answer all my questions You know this is a LIE I Dunno no – is not an answer – it is proof you have noneEach time you are caught in a contradiction You claim I Dunno no –or- you claim scripture tells you not to worry about the truthREPEAT – and I mean this as sincerely as possibleAnd Dave simply asks "When are you going to start answering questions? Why is it so important to you to deny there is One True God? Rob - I do not deny the one true elohiym power.Perfect example – you know we are not discussing the same conceptYou have a polytheistic pantheon of multiple gods working together as a unit Here is two Messanic emails this week, both affirm my support, and speak directly against your view:- Messanic" In fact, we find that God's love is often expressed using a metaphor of marriage. ROB" Yes indeed eloihym power is a metaphor of a wedding, why is that? Perfect example – again the metaphor is more real to you than the scripture---------------------------- Ex 20:12 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. We humans are commanded to respect our earthly parents, Explain – how this Commandment applies to the beast of the field (animals) the BEAST of Revelation-------------------------------- ROB" Notice how the Messanics write this arrangement, not as three expressions of the Father, but as a marriage model of love and being loved, by members of a divine family. Notice the HS carries the presence of the Father dwelling inside of us, You teach man has no spirit - the HS is already inside each of us Now you speak of the Comforter "The Spirit of Yeshua in us—You teach man has no spirit - the HS is already inside each of us + the Spirit of JesusIf you deny spirit exist – why do you speak of the spirit Explain what you mean - You teach man has no medium - the HS medium is already inside each of us + the Medium of Jesus You teach man has no ruwach - the HS ruwach already inside each of us + the Ruwach of Jesus You teach man has no wind - the HS wind is already inside each of us + the Wind of Jesus You teach man has no cherub - the HS cherub is already inside each of us + the cherub of Jesus No matter which polysemious word game of yours I play – you speak nonsense Explain yourself – what do you mean If you deny spirit exist – why do you speak of the spiritAre angels just fractions / sparks of God as you accuse OR are they unique independent individuals?You claim to answer all my question – so why don’t we know what your answers are----------------------------------------- Second Messanic email Rob" Notice the messanics write the devil as an angel of light, deceiving humans. They do not write about archon beasts or other creatures they cannot fathom, they term the devil as an angel of light, but obviously is an angel of darkness who sins. DUH - Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satanas, who deceives the whole world.------------------------------------------ Dave" NOT PLAYING YOUR WORD GAME Rob" I see. RobPP" Question: Can other creatures sin ? Dave's answer is NO. Dave PP" You are a LIER – and I am sick of it Jude – sinning angels = Gen 6 1:4 – held in chains ROb replies" Notice Dave writes "sinning angels" held in chains. Yep – your attempt to use Jud 1:6 And the angels – as proof that the archon are angels is rejected ἀγγέλους – means messenger-------------------------------------------- ROB-PP" Prove to me a "medium" is a body that talks, walk and moves all by itself? Dave-PP" What do angels do – if they do not exist – cannot speak – or move by themselves? Rob notices" you fail to read my question correctly. Not talking about angels (cherub) but about mediums that can move and talk, your theory about the "spark-spirit" which does not exist. Then answer the question Are angels just fractions / sparks of God as you accuse OR are they unique independent individuals?You claim to answer all my question – so why don’t we know what your answers are----------------------- ROBPP" ANswer my question- Does the "spirit-spark" even require a body ? DavePP" The spirit body = ethereal not corporeal ROb replies" Dave never answers my questions. 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
ANSWER - and it doth not yet appear what we shall be All we know as FACT = NOT 3D BIOLOGY – NOY 3D anything = ethereal not corporeal
Of course the body of the Father is not biology, not a "spirit" either, whatever that word means, not "ethereal" either, whatever that term means. Robert’s word game – so he can deny the teachingIt is easier to deny / corrupt scripture playing word games It is easy to confuse the new Christians with word games ----------------------------------- RobPP" Again you do not read English very well do you? I asked what sinning does to creation....? Rob replies" Dave again cannot answer simple questions put to him. LIE – more LIES from Robert I said – muth muth + the Contest of Gen 3:14-24------------------------------------- DavePP"Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit You deny spirit exist - you cannot possibly understand this verse using your current teaching Rob replies" The term "spirit" refers to the "medium", something carried by something, in this case the HS carries the loving presence of the Father into humans who desire this love. The Messanics email write this so well, following my view:- "Only with the help of the Ruach HaKodesh— Holy Spirit of God Himself dwelling inside of us—can we experience such intimate, eternal love as would a friend, a child, and a Bride of a covenant-keeping Bridegroom" They do not write Dave's view:" Dave's view – the promise of the NT ComforterJoh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Eze 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. Eze 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Robberts version - Only with the help of the left hand expression of the Father, the Holy Spirit, does the Spirit of the Father dwell in humans, can we develop such intimate love, as the spirit expression is the Father Himself. Yes – (the Left Hand / Holy Spirit / Spirit of God) – can and does Tabernacle within man Yes – (the left Hand / Holy Spirit / Spirit of God) is GOD Even if you try you spoil the teaching ---------------------------------------------------- Dave PP" Call them by any name you want - the REALITY OF THE ARCHON remains the same It is just a game for you to play ROb replies" There are just two NT verses that use "archon" Dave You promote satan as the god of evil – even took 1/3rd of all God’s angels away from God But you deny that satanas, the devil, that ancient serpent, or the BEAST of Revelation exist Your word game contradiction means nothing Just a game you play======================= A Look at the Trinity From a Messianic Jewish Perspective by Jews for Jesus | July 03 1996 ROB: " Reading this again, seems to support Dave's idea that the Father shows three faces or modes of himself. ROB: " Reading this again, seems to support Dave's idea that the Father is NOT a person, nor has a personhood, but is three faces of the one being, and coming to earth are one of these faces, the left hand face is the HS, and the right hand face is Christ. Dave confirms my re-reading this Jewish material DUH – There is only ONE GOD Man can never see His face – because God is beyond our reality – ethereal not corporeal Man can experience God invisibly – The Holy Spirit – the Spirit of God – the Essence of God Man can experience God visibly – Christ – the image of GodGen 1:1 God created the (invisible) heavens and the (visible) earth. E (the Energy of the All - the source of the ALL - God) = ethereal / spiritual + corporeal / physical God = the Spirit of God + the Image of God E / God is a singularity (1) - that contans all data / all energy - all knowledge / all power - omniscient / omnipotent E = Spoke the WORD - invisible / ethereal - incorruptable (m) matter - visible / corporeal / corruptable (because it comes with entropy) and the WORD was GOD - Jesus Christ - God incarnate Or as you said - Christ wrapped in the humanity of Jesus ------------- RObPP "So in your view, the Ruwach is a Father feminine expression, not created. When you say the HS is a feminine expression of the Father, is not this expression created? Rob replies" both of these questions are not answered by Dave. Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Who spoke the WORD? – who thought of the WORD before it was spoke?God thought the Word – God spoke the Word God EXPRESSED His thought into reality God the Father = The WORD existed - before it is spoken The Spirit of God – The spoken WORD – the WORD expressed – radiated out from the source – expansion The IMAGE of God = the WORD was God Why do the Jews see the Spirit of God as feminine?She moves among the people – tending the Children of God She is the WOMB of all creation ------------------------------------------- Eze 1:6 And every one had four faces, Eze 1:8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. Notice the four living creatures....are they biological? the verses do not say, they look like a man with a man's hand, but also different with four different faces. Dave’s answer – the Gnostic answerWhat Ezekiel saw were multidimensional beings (angels) – not fully 3D – or 4D – or whatever – but multiple forms – just as a 2D image look much different than a 3D image Eze 1:14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. Correct – how can corporeal man describe the ethereal? Light beings – essence – ghostly – spiritual – NOT BIOLOGY------------------------------------- four living entities of God with four faces? During this vision, we have two Hebrew words describing things Eze 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings. We have the ShaddayEze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. We have the glory of YHWH. Question: why two descriptions of this power? Yes – the Glory of God = the Holy SpiritSo why the two descriptions of the vision as powers? Shadday and YHWH? ROB" So Jews see GOD with female and male modes. What Jews call the duality of the Most High. ----------- RObPP "Moral Dualism *Gnosticism presents a peculiar combination of the two types of dualism: this world and our bodily existence, being characterized by evil, are the work of a lower, imperfect deity (the "demiurge" or creator), above whom there is a completely distinct, more transcendent and spiritual, good and "true" god. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/dualismRob replies" Dave did not comment on this Gnostic passage. The passage describes two gods, one above as the true god and one below as the imperfect deity working evil in our lower world. I thought Dave would hate this Zoroastrianism model? This is not the teaching from the Nag Hammadi – James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, or Thomas This is a more ancient Gnosticism – not my teaching You already know this – yet you continually post it anyway – for what purpose to you post nonsense and LIES – and misrepresent me I offered to return the favorMormons teach your satan and Christ are twin brothers – they call themselves Christian – you pretend to be Christian – why do you support this? Jehovah’s Witness teach there is no heaven – this is it they call themselves Christian – you pretend to be Christian – why do you support this?There are Baptist Churches in the American South that dance around with vipers to prove their faith they call themselves Christian – you pretend to be Christian – why do you support this?Uniteriarians – do not even believe in a God they call themselves Christian – you pretend to be Christian – why do you support this?Why do you and Ellen White teach all this nonsense? It is all under the umbrella of Christianity – therefore you support it allThe Catholic Pope is the vicar of Christ on earth - You are NOT worthy to speak directly to God - you must use an intercessor - like a Saint or Mary It is all under the umbrella of Christianity – therefore you support it all--------------------------- Jewish PP"But what of all the anthropomorphic terms that we encounter in Jewish sacred texts? God created out of free will and we are granted the ability to reason and a free will of our own, but there is no “family resemblance. ROb replies" Ezekiel describes the four living entities as a man's hand and a man's face as one of the faces. Why do Jews deny the descriptions of this vision? BECAUSE – everyone on the planet – except you – understands Man is doing his best to describe the indescribable – Only you believe the metaphors to be real------------ WHOM does the shedim refer to as a creature? Jews do not answer this question, and Dave ignores the question too. LIES and more LIES from RobertRev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and satanas, which deceiveth the whole world:------------------------------ Jer 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved "maleness love" thee with an everlasting love "femaleness-love": Explain how ONE being can show both forms of loving at exactly the same time, simply by His Presence? ROB" So Jews see GOD with female and male modes. What Jews call the duality of the Most High. ================= Dave" OH – now you want to say God made your satan god on purpose? What happened to – your satan rebels out of pride, hates and opposes God’s right to rule the universe? Rob" you didn't read Ellen WHite did you? "It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Why does Ellen White deny the NT?Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. (yester ra) Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. (yester ra) Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; Agree - Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it."No comments by Dave, only this twisted mocking.OK – here is some more MOCKING – how does this prove your satan god rebelled, hates, and opposes God right to rule the universe?---------------------- Ge 20:13 And it came to pass, when Elohihym's caused me to wander (plural verb) from my father's house, ROB" Not a single translation is willing to translate this as above, as the plural verb demands. Why? Because this would admit that Abram knew of a divine family of power. Plurality in the word meaning of elohiym. Why – because anyone who really studies scripture understands textual criticism No one is correct building an entire religion around a word – or a verse Precept upon precept, line upon line – scripture must validate itself You rewrite the bulk of scripture – or deny portions – to protect you word game ------------------------------ Gordon write a lengthy comment on this:- "Elohim with Plural Verbs So contrary to the expected rule of Elohim getting a singular verb, here Elohim gets a plural verb. Because of this plural verb, we could literally translate this phrase "gods caused me to wander". From this verse alone it indeed appears that Abraham worshipped multiple gods whom he believed had caused him to wander from his father's house. However, this hardly fits the overall picture. ROB" Why doesn't it fit the overall picture? Why can't elohiym be a family power term?
Because a family of multiple gods as a unit is a polytheistic pantheon There is only ONE GOD A plural verb with the Trinity is not an issue A singular verb with the Trinity is not an issue Why do you have to make it an issue ---------------------------------------------- Dave" Why don’t you answer the question – what is Christian Grace? YES - why don't you answer questions? ROb" I have answered this, why don't you talk more? A solitary Father cannot show "sharing, caring, trusting and having faith in, and even talking" unless you have two or more persons of the same kind who are equally as you are. So you deny the teaching of GRACE – unconditional your god only loves you when you love him back - conditional(wiki) In Western Christian theology, grace is created by God who gives it as help to one because God desires one to have it, not necessarily because of anything one has done to earn it. It is understood by Western Christians to be a spontaneous gift from God to people – "generous, free and totally unexpected and undeserved" – that takes the form of divine favor, divine love God's love is NOT conditional - it is unrequited-------------------------- Dave" Ps 71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, Explain how God makes you alive twice?The term chayah here refers to the breath of salvation, chayah is the breath of salvation from Jesus, who dies for our sins, and offers the breath of the Father for eternity, to those who love Him.But you claim man already has the breath of God within us – because we are living creatures Explain how God breathes into you twiceDave" You still have not told us what the definition is?Rob" the empowered chayah is brand new in the sense after Jesus died and rose, does true chayah take affect. The OT lived under a promise of chayah, the NT lives in the truest enactment OH – so nothing happens – man is just now under a new covenantOH – so nothing happens - the promise of the Comforter is just another methaphorWhat about Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
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Post by rob on Nov 25, 2023 23:50:03 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Our telstra server transmitter went down, now it's up running again, a 8 hour down time. Sunday we leave to go to our work accommodation, so take your time with this post. Enjoy the read and challenges before you. --------------- Dave" INSTEAD – you offer me 2010 Rabbi Apple who specializes in Christian/Jew/Muslim interfaith appoligestist NOW – you offer Rabbi Schneider of a 1960s Jewish Christian Outreach MinistryRob" So even if I was to find some human evidence prior to Roman Edit, you would not be swayed by that evidence anyway? Why do I need humans to validate the Scriptures? Why can't the Scriptures validate the Scriptures themselves? I have spent all my time lately looking at Jewish humans to validate or falsify your theories, because you do not follow the Scriptures, nor are you swayed by the evidence of the Scriptures. Instead you follow precepts of men and traditions of men, Jewish sources. What makes us different is I follow Sola Scriptoria, I do not follow humans as you claim, nor Ellen White as you claim. I follow the leading of the HS and the Bible words only, regardless of what other humans think. ============== Dave" I Dunno no – is not an answer – it is proof you have noneROb" I often say "I dunno" because you ask questions the Scriptures do not have answers. Like what shape is the Father? I dunno. Not all questions are answered by the Scriptures, because we do not need to know. Dave" REPEAT – and I mean this as sincerely as possible And Dave simply asks "When are you going to start answering questions? Why is it so important to you to deny there is One True God?Rob - I do not deny the one true elohiym power. Dave" Perfect example – you know we are not discussing the same concept You have a polytheistic pantheon of multiple gods working together as a unitRob" You know my friend, we have to get over this problem you have that divinity must be solitary, on its own. Why does it bother you if divinity is one or a hundred & one? Why can't you fathom what Scripture teaches about relational persons becoming a unit? I did a study of yachad and echad, this morning, since the server was down, and was surprised here are two hebrew words both verb and noun forms, meaning almost the same meaning. Why is this? This cannot be right? So I prayed to God for a solution:- 258 verb strong outside door - uniting 259 noun strong outside door - unit 2303 outside door behold the person - join 3161 verb active outside door - joining 3162 noun active outside door - joined So here is a simple study ....Ge 49:5-6 Simeon and Levi are brothers.... O my soul, come not into their secret and their assembly, mine honour; be not joining (together) for in their nose (anger) they slew a man, and with selfwill digged a wall. Ps 86:11 Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: joining my heart to fear thy name. Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joining with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. noun form Ge 13:6 And the land was not able to bear them, that they might (be) dwelling joined: for their substance was great, so that they could not dwell (as) joined. Ge 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they walked as a couple joined. Ex 19:8 And all the people's eye's (were) joined, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. De 22:10 Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass joined. De 25:5 ¶ If brothers dwell (as) joined, and the unit dies, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. ROB" Here is an example of both words. The human brothers come together and a joined together. The Scriptures consider this idea as a unit, for when the unit dies, the wife is to marry the other brother. You cannot Dave, deny the Hebrew idea doesn't exist, this relational term exists in numerous places. Jos 9:2 That they gathered themselves (to be joined) , to fight with Joshua and with Israel, with united mouth. Job 24:17 For the morning "joined" the shadow of death: ROB" nearly all yachad noun form uses together, with humans, but here is a verse without humans, so the word "joined" is better than "together". Ho 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered (as) joined, and appoint themselves a "unit" head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. ROB" Verses like this help to get all the translations correct. The brothers of Israel come together to be joined, and choose among them a "unified" head, a leader representing the unit. 3161&3162 are actively outside the door, the idea to come together and be joined 258&259 are strongly outside the door as a unit, designed or created with strong oneness in mind. Thanks the Lord for Ancient Hebrew script, the difference between the words is the word "active hands" and "Strongly" Yachad is the idea of actively joining many together, and after they do this, they chose a unit head leader to represent them. Why does Hebrew have all these two words with both verb and noun forms? What details are the words of GOD saying in His language, the mother of all languages? Obviously the idea of unity, uniting and joining together is an important idea in God's domain. But the important question is does this relational joining idea to become a unit, also exist with elohiym power? Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: This verse says yes, we can learn of the elohiym power from the Creation.
Dave" Perfect example – again the metaphor is more real to you than the scriptureROb" I don't get you, GOD invented Hebrew, it's His language and God invented poetry, it's His methods to make similes of things we do not understand, to things we do understand. And you poo hoo all this with a metaphor, poetry is imaginary, not real, so can be ignored. BUT this is not true, poetry is real, and making similes is fun and also real as well. You do not write such poetry and do not understand the idea of making real things easy to fathom in similes of poetry, like I have; so I understand your ignorance of poetry and similes. But you often quoted Rom 1:20 to see, surely you agree Creation is the answer to explaining elohiym powers? Dave" Explain – how this Commandment applies to the beast of the field (animals) the BEAST of RevelationROb" Really Dave, if the beast is a mere animal with animal instincts to tempt humans to sin, than their intelligence is poor compared to humans as well. Where does the Bible speak of the lion sinning, or the donkey who talks but does not sin, or the bird sins ? No such Scriptures, only man sins, and cherub sins, these creatures are higher order creatures with free will. I mean, I read sola scriptoria, I do not follow church religions like your Roman Catholic Edit idea. How can the Catholics edit an Ezekiel verse already written a thousand years before? Just because Jews ignore the verse is besides the point? If you wish to follow Jews, why arn't you following them all the way? I take it than, your Mother is of Jewish descent, otherwise you can't be a Jew according to the Law of Return. Using this example I can't be a Jew, but according to the torah, I can be a Jew by the grafting grace of God into His branches as a wild olive branch. Dave" If you deny spirit exist – why do you speak of the spirit Explain what you mean ROb" Can't you read previous posts? I do not deny the idea of a medium. A medium carries something. So the Spirit is a medium that carries the Father's character of love into our hearts by faith. So I do not deny the medium process. You speak of the "spark-spirit", I deny this, because such a thing does not exist. Y ou can't so me a single verse or a single Hebrew word explaining this concept. Dave" Explain what you mean - Rob teaches man has a grand-medium - the HS medium is already inside each of us, as the Father's breath of life. + the Medium of Jesus came also comes into humans, if we choose Jesus as our Saviour. Rob teaches man has a grand-ruwach - the HS ruwach already inside each of us + the Ruwach of Jesus also comes into humans, if we choose Jesus as our Saviour. Rob teaches man has a wind - it is termed nashamah This word means "breathing of air, in and out" It is a wind in a natural sense, a literal real and tangible wind. Such a term is also used to refer to the flow of man's character. Rob teaches man has no cherub living inside of humans Dave" - the HS cherub is already inside each of us + the cherub of JesusROb" I cannot relate to these ideas, there is a small glimpse of Ellen White speaking of the "HS as cherub like", but I do not understand all things in the Scriptures, so using sola scriptoria, my two pennies of thought is limited. What do you mean by saying this or are you mocking me? Dave" No matter which polysemious word game of yours I play – you speak nonsenseROb" Hebrew words are not polysemous. I try to speak with clarity, I am sorry if you cannot understand. Dave" If you deny spirit exist – why do you speak of the spiritROb" I do not deny the medium, that something that carries something. You on the other had speak of the "spark-spirit" as a thing, with an ethereal body that comes from the Father, I deny this, as there is no Hebrew word for this idea, nor any verse explaining this idea. Dave" Are angels just fractions / sparks of GodROb" Angels are cherubims, and cherubims are created. They were all created sinless as humans were created sinless too. The idea of the creature as some "ethereal spark spirit" is pure invention on your part and Jews who say the "ethereal spark spirit" lives one after mortal death is pure myth too. The medium returns to GOD upon the soul's death. In other words the function dies and goes away. Thus the function of the soul and the medium vanish, no more. Both ruwach and nephesh are functions of matter, "not things that exist on their own". The ruwach and nephesh only exist when matter exists. The real concrete parts of the function are these, biological matter and a relationship of the Father with the matter via the medium, as the breath of life. You agree on a subatomic level the Father's powers keeps matter as biological living. The overall process of all this is termed a nephesh, a soul, that functions with living, a quality that comes from God only. So where does the development of "you" come from, as "you"? The Hebrew word for this is nashamah, the idea of breathing in and out, natural air. But when you breath in and out natural air, you also breath in and out the relational love of elohiym power. How you develop this flowing in and out of love, develops "you" as "you". Since all power is a flow by "Faith" you can choose with free will, how you develop this flow until you are unique in your development and expression of love. Dave" OR are they unique independent individuals?Rob" We are unique developments of love because we choose daily which loving we choose. Pr 16:9 ¶ A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. You choose your way of love, and GOD partnered to you empowers your choices. The process works via faith, you speak the words and the powers of God flows in those words. Dave" You claim to answer all my question – so why don’t we know what your answers areROb" I enjoy explaining things to you, but often I am stretched to thinking beyond me, we ask hard questions. Consider this principle Ps 131:1 LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. The quest for all of us as a child of elohiym, is to keep things simple and do not reach for things too high for us. Dave" DUH - Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satanas, who deceives the whole world.ROb" You are a scholar and a translator scholar. Ask another translator you know why is the Greek word satanas existing, when the Hebrew word satan is a nameless opposer? Ask them is the suffix added by Greeks to make the nameless opposer into a named opposer, hence Satanas? That is my two pennies why the Greek term is used. It's not a loan word, but an attempt of Greeks to name things, including the unnamed opposer. Dave" Yep – your attempt to use Jud 1:6 And the angels – as proof that the archon are angels is rejected ἀγγέλους – means messengerROb" Than write consistently Dave, instead of speaking of GOD, change the word to Father. You do not have a "eloihym of many divine members" you have only one being, a Father with three faces. ( Why 150+ uses of eloah "father" and 2000+ uses of elohiym, (also Father) if one word can do all the same?) Obviously something wrong with your thinking? Say the messengers sin, not angels sin, write consistently about your religion. Stop mixing terms like trinity for example. Jews do not have trinity, they have a Father showing dualism. And why would you want to associate with a Catholic Edit anyway? ----------- Now where do these messengers come from? earth or heaven? What does Jude say? Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. What is Jude speaking about? Humans have crept into the church denying the YHWH elohiym and the YHWH Jesus Christ? Wow. Is this what Jude is talking about? Are there really two YHWH divine persons? Seems so Jude says so right here. turning elohiym in lasciviousness, what is this? 2Pe 2:7 ¶ And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: Here is a clue, some are saying Lot is living with the wicked Does the Lord GOD also create the wicked? Dave suggests this idea, God created all things, including bad creatures?? Jude is speaking against these ideas? Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. So Jude writes that GOD saved the faithful from the unfaithful. Now it is my understanding cows, baboons and archon animals can never be unfaithful, only creatures with free will to use faith in their minds can. Jude 1:6 And the messenger which guarded not their beginnings, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Who would these messengers be, from the beginning, a term that refers to long before humans existed. Long before animal creation too. Hence the messengers cannot be of human origin or animal origin. Ps 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: 4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Here are messengers again made as medium functions for GOD, creatures that carry God's messages. Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his messengers fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his messengers, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. What is this passage about, why are the messengers both good and bad? so a war in heaven breaks out? Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude compares these messengers that are bad, as humans in Sodom who are also bad. Both go after strange flesh, both are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Dave" proof that the archon are angels is rejectedROb" I agree with you, archons are not angels. Show me your archons are messengers? This also is rejected. So who are these messengers than? They have to be angels. So your archon creature is non-existent. A theory you have invented, does not exist in the Scriptures. Dave" ANSWER - and it doth not yet appear ROb" SO why talk about something that does not yet appear? Dave" Robert’s word game – so he can deny the teachingROb" I am not being a word gamer, you invent words that are not in the torah, so why do you do this? Trinity is not a word in the torah. "Spark-spirit" is not a word in the torah. "etheral body" is not in the torah? Why do you invent words that are not in the torah? Shekinah is not in the torah as a word either. Scripture says not the add words to the torah. Simple instruction really. Dave" It is easier to deny / corrupt scripture playing word gamesROb" NO Dave, I do not deny being speculative, but just don't make a big deal out of this... it's a word invented by humans. Dave" It is easy to confuse the new Christians with word gamesROb" confuse yes. Masons love to confuse laypersons with big words, confuse education with education. For example justification is a big word, when germinating is just fine. Sanctification is a big word, when growing is just fine. Keep things simple is the message of the Scriptures. Dave" LIE – more LIES from Robert I said – muth muth + the Contest of Gen 3:14-24ROb" I quote Scripture Jer 51:25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: Who is this destroying mountain? Humans only? No Eze 28:16 ...I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, Re 11:18 which destroy them which destroy the earth. My point is sinning agents spoil Creation until no Creation is left. Would you agree with this idea? Are we humans heading for nuclear war until no body not even Creation is left alive? Would you agree with this idea? Dave" Even if you try you spoil the teachingROb:" I am sorry about spoiling your view, how about you writing your view for readers? Dave" You promote satan as the god of evil – even took 1/3rd of all God’s angels away from God But you deny that satanas, the devil, that ancient serpent, or the BEAST of Revelation exist Your word game contradiction means nothing Just a game you playROb" Not consistent are we? You promote the idea that the unnamed Opposer took 1/3 of God's messengers away from God. But you deny the Satanas, the shedim devil, the serpent is a different creature altogether. Just a word game you play/ No Dave, it's not a word game I play, its a word game you play. Where your scholar who agrees with you? Not one scholar writes the satanas is a creature called archons created by GOD to have yester ra in them that sin naturally, yet these creatures have no free will. What a tall order these scholars have to agree with. Its an invention entirely by Dave. No wonder you are alone and do not attend any churches because no churches of people would agree with you. Does your friends agree with all I wrote about your Satanas creature, or are they friendly to you as friends, but differ with the details ? The devil in in the details they say. My two pennies is the Greeks wanted to name the nameless opposer as Satanas. Prove this idea wrong Dave. Falsify my hypothesis. Ask another translator. Send your email to another translator you know and ask them. Dave" Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Who spoke the WORD? – who thought of the WORD before it was spoke?
God thought the Word – God spoke the Word God EXPRESSED His thought into realityROb" look up Jewish commentary on memra. HOW can a Father speak words? and have nobody else who is divine do anthing to those words? Are you suggesting the Father's face role plays? DO you mean an expression wrapped in biological humanity, is role playing the Father's words? Write your sentences Dave, so I understand your thinking. I will never mock your thinking, unlike you might to me. I wish to understand why you think the way you think? How can a person on their own, takes words on their own? Is this possible? Why do this even? Is this even a relational idea? Sure I understand the Father wrapped in humanity, taking the fathers words in divinity taking divine words to humans wrapped in matter so humans understand. Sure this is nice idea. But how does the Father in divinity take his words of divinity to another person of divinity? He can't. No other person of divinity exists. What is missing when you do not entertain this idea Dave? What is missing? 1) lonely Father - nobody to talk to 2) nobody can take you own words and carry them in you. A Father enjoys the Son become like the Father, by beholding the Son is changed into a Father, no possible if you all alone. 3) no love exchanged - no body to provide form no body to respond to. When my wife dies I am alone. I do not feel like cooking for me only, nobody to talk to, nobody to share memories to, so most couples who lose their one and only soul mate, die also because they have nobody else around that know them. When you reject other divine members, you reject all these as well. Explain this to me. 4) death is defined as separation of divinity. When you have the Father all alone, you have no sense of death. So explain death to me Dave? using the Father alone? You can't. I can explain death, but you can't. Muslims are right saying if the Father is Christ how can the Father die? He can't. So Muslims mock Christ. I can explain this because GOD revealed the answer to me, but you can't nor can mainstream Christian churches either. Jews say the Angel of Death, a good angel doing a bad job, comes and haregs you. This is not death at all, not even close. Death is when everything about that Person ceases to exist, how can a Jew explain this? They can't. Zec 14:12 And this shall be the "striking" (Jeff Benner) wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. Here is the definition of the second death, a striking from GOD, what is this exactly? When matter is ceases to exist, the dissolution of nature itself? Dave" Why do the Jews see the Spirit of God as feminine? She moves among the people – tending the Children of God She is the WOMB of all creationROb" nice , but does this relate to the Father? Dave" Dave’s answer – the Gnostic answer What Ezekiel saw were multidimensional beings (angels) – not fully 3D – or 4D – or whatever – but multiple forms – just as a 2D image look much different than a 3D imageROb" I can accept this answer, though it doesn't have to be Gnostic. Rather than multidimensional beings ( A Greek or Gnostic view - why not multifunctional functions? A Hebrew view is always about functions, not beings?) Dave" Correct – how can corporeal man describe the ethereal? Light beings – essence – ghostly – spiritual – NOT BIOLOGYROb" Hang on Dave. "light is of matter (particles) and waves (not of matter). " So you cannot speak of ethereal" Light is matter. Biology is of matter. These things cannot be ethereal. My understand is ethereal is not of matter. So when we see visions of GOD as light, lightning and "living creatures (chay), we have a problem. You ethereal idea is not working. God is of matter sometimes, and sometimes of living, (chay) so really is difficult to know, beyond matter, time and space. Dave" Yes – the Glory of God = the Holy SpiritROb" I can accept your idea, the glory face (HS) and the personal presence (YHWH). But you forget one thing, the Shadday is not always written as a function, the Shadday is also personal as a personal being. Ge 17:1 I am the Almighty God; walk before me, Ex 6:3 And I appeared <ra'ah> unto Abraham <'Abraham>, unto Isaac <Yitschaq>, and unto Jacob <Ya`aqob>, (by the name of) God <'el> Almighty <Shadday>, but by my name <shem> JEHOVAH <Y@hovah> was I not known <yada`> to them. Does the Shadday have a name like the YHWH? It seems so according to translators? Nu 24:16 He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open: Most High and Shadday, do they seem to tbe both the same person? Job 5:17 ¶ Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: Why both names discipline humans? If one name exists? Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me. Why both names terror humans? If one name exists? Job 6:14 ¶ To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend; but he forsaketh the fear of the Almighty. Why is the Shadday seen as a friend? Job 8:3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice? Why both names judge humans? If one name exists? Job 11:7 ¶ Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? Why search both names , if one name exists? Job 13:3 Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God. Why talk to the Shadday, if we are to always talk to the Father? Ps 91:1 ¶ He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Explain how the Father becomes a shadow under the Shadday? A shadow is made from two objects, not one object, hence two persons of the elohiym power is here, not one as two expressions, or one as two solid objects. The Father's light is partly blocked by the Shadday and we humans live under the shadow power of the Father. It's important as sinners would perish if exposed to the fall power of the Father. Why don't we perish under the Shadday than? Because the Shadday functions passively and the shadow affect is like a medium affect. The blocking of the power causes a filtered down power flow from the Father. The Shadday administrates this affect. Eze 10:5 ...the Almighty <Shadday> God <'el> when he speaketh <dabar>. The Shadday speaks suggesting the Name is personal. Dave" This is not the teaching from the Nag Hammadi – James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, or Thomas This is a more ancient Gnosticism – not my teachingROb" I thought this. Dave" You already know this – yet you continually post it anyway – for what purpose to you post nonsense and LIES – and misrepresent meROb" I wanted to show you something Dave. Pr 12:15 ¶ The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise. Dave" You already know this – yet you continually post it anyway – for what purpose to you post nonsense and LIES – and misrepresent me
I offered to return the favorROb" Dave the entire Bible is inspired, not a single error in the Hebrew messages, maybe some typos and some verses we cannot verify. But you cannot pick and choose which Gnostic writing you like and which you don't like. Otherwise you are a fool playing around with writings hoping this words will save you. Dave many pretend to be Christian, by their fruits ye will know them. Practical doing, not theory in verses. Show your loving. Dave" It is all under the umbrella of Christianity – therefore you support it allRob" No Dave, I don't. I am sola Scriptoria. Dave" Only you believe the metaphors to be realRob: Similes are real Dave. Love is a river, a Dam fed you some, Clear was it's water, traditionally done.The river, the dam and water are all real stories on their own. The way they function is similes of the way humans function. Love, wife and husband are also real. The invisible flow of love (water) by a controlled process (river) within the home (by a dam) are also all real similes. Dave" LIES and more LIES from Robert Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and satanas, which deceiveth the whole world:Rob" Well it should be easy to falsify me, show me a quote of a Jew agreeing with you? So far you have not done this? Dave" Why does Ellen White deny the NT? Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. (yester ra)Mrs White uses the term propensites "aven" instead of "yester ra". " Vicious habits and sinful propensities are strengthened and confirmed by these entertainments. Low songs, lewd gestures, expressions, and attitudes deprave the imagination and debase the morals. Every youth who habitually attends such exhibitions will be corrupted in principle. There is no influence in our land more powerful to poison the imagination, to destroy religious impressions, and to blunt the relish for the tranquil pleasures and sober realities of life than theatrical amusements." And The sins of the parents will be visited upon their children, because the parents have given them the stamp of their own lustful propensitiesSo this "Aven" idea termed in English as "propensities" controls the mind with habits to sin, lust as she explains. Dave" how does this prove your satan god rebelled, hates, and opposes God right to rule the universe?Rob" Consider this principle Re 13:4 And the humans worshipped the dragon-power which gave power unto the human-beast-power: How is it possible for humans to worship a dragon power they cannot see, simply because they worship the human beast power whom they can see? Because what a beast power does, it's what a dragon power does. The human is the dragons pawn in a game of chess. Do you agree with this idea? So you can read about the dragon by reading what the human is doing? Do you agree with this idea? This is called law by association. Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Here a human power what to be above the Most HIgh power. So by the law by association, the dragon wants to be above the Most High too. Not only that the Opposer wants to be man's saviour for their sins. Have you ever considered this mock of the Most High? Have you not read the Catholic Church claims over human sinners? And human impute power to this father pope deity on earth in this prophecy? Hab 1:11 Then ...imputing this his power unto his god (eloah). DaVE" Why – because anyone who really studies scripture understands textual criticism No one is correct building an entire religion around a word – or a verse Precept upon precept, line upon line – scripture must validate itself You rewrite the bulk of scripture – or deny portions – to protect you word gameRob" Of course I forgot, Gordon's method, 3 verses are thrown out for the 2000 verses that agree with Gordon. This is not Precept upon precept, line upon line , it's let the bulk verses talk, not all the verses talk, after all the Bible has errors in it's messages? Dave" Why do you have to make it an issueRob " Because a family of multiple faces as a unit is a polytheistic pantheon of a single Father's face. Surely the Father is one face and one function of love, not dual functions of love as you claim. Your multiple faces of the Father spoils the monotheism of the Father's love.Dave" So you deny the teaching of GRACE – unconditional your god only loves you when you love him back - conditionalROb" Off track, not my issue A solitary Father cannot show "sharing, caring, trusting and having faith in, and even talking" unless you have two or more persons of the same kind who are equally as you are. Stick to the question at hand Have you ever been alone Dave? What loving did you do? Dave" The Father's Grace is thought to be a spontaneous gift from God to people ROb" Bingo!!!!! How does the Father show grace if nobody is around? He can't. People are creatures. A Father is divine. These are not the same, not even close. If I don't act and talk like a dog, my dog will never trust me, so my gracious gift is meaningless. If order for God to be gracious He must show graciousness to his own kind. Dave" Explain how God breathes into you twiceRob" easy one is the breath of life as conditional probation timed to time second is the breath of salvation as unconditional, eternal and no of time, based on faith. Dave" OH – so nothing happens – man is just now under a new covenantROb" Are you kidding, lot's happen Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Also power traits 1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. Even here the idea of a unit is written. Dave igores the verses Dave" What about Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:ROb" Nice Shalom my friend Enjoy your week too much rain and more on the way
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Post by Dave on Nov 26, 2023 5:59:43 GMT -5
Why do I need humans to validate the Scriptures? Why can't the Scriptures validate the Scriptures themselves? Correct – Precept upon precept, line upon line scripture must validate itself
The challenge to you since the very beginning 1- precept upon precept, line upon line – validate your Ezk 28 Catholic satan god from scripture I have asked you to go through each line of scripture and demonstrate how your satan god rebels, hates, or opposes God. INSTEAD – each time you even try you just get frustrated and offer your assumption – anyone opposing man opposes God
2- OR – you were to provide me pre-Roman evidence of you Ezk 28 satan god Rob" So even if I was to find some human evidence prior to Roman Edit, you would not be swayed by that evidence anyway?
Still waiting – four years I have been waiting for your pre-Roman evidence You do not have any – because you Catholic satan god never existed until Rome invented him ----------------------------------------
What makes us different is I follow Sola Scriptoria, I do not follow humans as you claim, nor Ellen White as you claim. I follow the leading of the HS and the Bible words only, regardless of what other humans think. ==============
ROb" I often say "I dunno" because you ask questions the Scriptures do not have answers. Nope – I ask question you don’t have answers for
Like what shape is the Father? Please quote this question from me – or admit your just lying
Dave" Perfect example – you know we are not discussing the same concept You have a polytheistic pantheon of multiple gods working together as a unit Rob" You know my friend, we have to get over this problem you have that divinity must be solitary, on its own. Why does it bother you if divinity is one or a hundred & one?
What makes us different is I follow Sola Scriptoria, I do not follow the human Ellen White Why does it bother you if divinity is one or a hundred & one?
A pagan pantheon of 100s of gods? What an absolute anti-Judeo-Christian thing to say Your respect for God is obvious -----------------------------------
ROB" Here is an example of both words. Word game ------------------------------------
Dave" Perfect example – again the metaphor is more real to you than the scripture ROb" I don't get you, And you poo hoo all this with a metaphor, poetry is imaginary, not real, so can be ignored.
Jim is crazy like a fox – you say the fox becomes more real than Jim Bill is as slippery as a wet noddle – you say the wet noddle is more real than Bill The king of Tyre is like a covering cherub – you say the cherub is more real than the King of Tyre --------------------------------------
Dave" Explain – how this Commandment applies to the beast of the field (animals) the BEAST of Revelation ROb" Really Dave, if the beast is a mere animal with animal instincts to tempt humans to sin, than their intelligence is poor compared to humans as well. Where does the Bible speak of the lion sinning, or the donkey who talks but does not sin, or the bird sins ? No such Scriptures,
You use the 10 Commandants as a universal proof that Gen 1:2= SIN 1Jn 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. Now you say the 10 Commandment do not apply to the beast --------------------------------------
Dave" If you deny spirit exist – why do you speak of the spirit Explain what you mean You speak of the "spark-spirit", I deny this, because such a thing does not exist. You can't so me a single verse or a single Hebrew word explaining this concept.
So you teach that angels, devil, demons, and evil spirits are the Holy Spirit – the same as man Dave" Explain what you mean -
Rob teaches man has a grand-medium - the HS medium is already inside each of us, as the Father's breath of life. Yep – you teach - all angels, demons, and man are just the Holy Spirit
+ the Medium of Jesus came also comes into humans, if we choose Jesus as our Saviour. Now you have a second medium -
Rob teaches man has a grand-ruwach - the HS ruwach already inside each of us + the Ruwach of Jesus also comes into humans, if we choose Jesus as our Saviour. Now you have three different mediums
Dave" - the HS cherub is already inside each of us + the cherub of Jesus ROb" I cannot relate to these ideas, there is a small glimpse of Ellen White speaking of the "HS as cherub like", but I do not understand all things in the Scriptures, so using sola scriptoria, my two pennies of thought is limited. What do you mean by saying this or are you mocking me?
Dave" No matter which polysemious word game of yours I play – you speak nonsense ROb" Hebrew words are not polysemous. Make up your mind over the last few weeks you have said that the ruwach – medium – Holy Spirit – wind – and cherub
I try to speak with clarity, I am sorry if you cannot understand. Present a consistent theology Present a consistent answer
Dave" Are angels just fractions / sparks of God ROb" Angels are cherubims, and cherubims are created. They were all created sinless as humans were created sinless too. The idea of the creature as some "ethereal spark spirit" is pure invention Then you insist that angels are biology = why can’t you just say it
Dave" OR are they unique independent individuals? Rob" We are unique developments of love because we choose daily which loving we choose. Then you insist that angels are biology = why can’t you just say it
Jude 1:6 - Who would these messengers be, from the beginning, a term that refers to long before humans existed. Long before animal creation too. Hence the messengers cannot be of human origin or animal origin. Now you say angels are not animals or human – so what are they
According to you – they cannot be spirit – they are biology – but they are not animals – they are not ethereal or corporeal - they are mediums and the medium is the Holy Spirit
Ps 104:3 Here are messengers again made as medium functions for GOD, creatures that carry God's messages. What does this mean Robert – are they independent individual mediums or just the Holy Spirit Answer the question – or stop posting -----------------------------
Dave" ANSWER - and it doth not yet appear ROb" SO why talk about something that does not yet appear? Definition of ethereal
Dave" Robert’s word game – so he can deny the teaching ROb" I am not being a word gamer, you invent words Trinity is not a word in the torah. "Spark-spirit" is not a word in the torah. "etheral body" is not in the torah? Shekinah is not in the torah as a word either. Repeat - Dave" Robert’s word game – so he can deny the teaching
Dave" It is easier to deny / corrupt scripture playing word games ROb" NO Dave, I do not deny being speculative, Correct – you have zero respect for the word of God and play word games with it
Dave" It is easy to confuse the new Christians with word games ROb" confuse yes. For example justification is a big word, when germinating is just fine. Sanctification is a big word, when growing is just fine. Repeat - Dave" Robert’s word game – It is easier to deny / corrupt scripture playing word games ------------------------------
Dave" You promote satan as the god of evil – even took 1/3rd of all God’s angels away from God But you deny that satanas, the devil, that ancient serpent, or the BEAST of Revelation exist Your word game contradiction means nothing Just a game you play ROb" Not consistent are we? – NO YOU ARE NOT --------------------------------
Dave" Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Who spoke the WORD? – who thought of the WORD before it was spoke?
God thought the Word – God spoke the Word God EXPRESSED His thought into reality ROb" look up Jewish commentary on memra. - ANOTHER WORD GAME HOW can a Father speak words?
I’m done with you Go mock God and Christianity somewhere else - because your teaching is NOT WELCOME here
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Post by rob on Nov 29, 2023 6:08:42 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" The challenge to you since the very beginning 1- precept upon precept, line upon line – validate your Ezk 28 Catholic satan god from scripture
I have asked you to go through each line of scripture and demonstrate how your satan god rebels, hates, or opposes God.
You do not have any – because you Catholic satan god never existed until Rome invented himROB" OK I will endeavour to do this tomorrow after you post to my post, I have been reading somethings from your previous posts. 1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ROB" who are these gods than and lords than? and whom is Jesus Christ? An expression of a Father, or a second strong authority of divinity? The word "one" here denotes "unit" not "yacciyd". ====================== Dave" 28 Biblical Passages Which Explicitly Teach There is Only GodRob" I don't have a problem that there is only one elohiym power. But you do not understand what a unit means. The Lord showed me a verse this morning Ps 77:20 Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron. All these words are masculine singular, and it seems odd that it should read like this? In English we would say " by the hands of Moses and Aaron". How can God lead his flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron? It makes sense, because GOD declared Moses and Aaron a elohiym power, ie a unit. Ge 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, (KJV) Here the translation is wrong, the word had is plural, Ge 19:10 But the men put forth their hands, and pulled Lot into the house to them (Hebrew Bible hub) But for Ps 77:20 the hand is singular, not plural. =============== Dave" The king of Tyre is like a covering cherub – you say the cherub is more real than the King of TyreRob" Both objects in the poem are real. The cherub and King Tyre. Both are creatures. Both sin. Do you understand what a poetry simile is? Dave claims when can a simile become important than it's object? Ps 77:16 The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: Why are the water afraid? Who are waters? Israel is. ================ Dave" Now you say the 10 Commandment do not apply to the beastRob" No I don't. Prove to me your archon beasts were created and made as shedim. The verse says the shedim sin like humans sin, hence the sinning creature has free will to sin. What creature other than humans have sinned? Cherubs have. (ezekiel 28 - the verse you ignore) DavePreviousPost" Satanas oppose Creation. Nobody can oppose GOD."Rob" Isn't this a contradiction? Why would the Father design a creature to oppose other creatures? Lam 3:38 Dave" Uses Eph 6:12 to prove archons exist as beast-creatures. Eph 6:12 For <hoti> we <hemin> wrestle <pale> not <ou> against <esti> <pros> flesh <sarx> and <kai> blood <haima>, but <alla> against <pros> principalities <arche>, against <pros> powers <exousia>, against <pros> the rulers <kosmokrator> of the darkness. I do not see the Greek word "archon" here? The Greek word " arche" means "beginning". There is a Greek word "Archon". Joh 3:1 ¶ There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler "archon" of the Jews: As readers can see the word means "ruler" or in Hebrew "Sar" meaning "prince". So there is not a single reference to archons created as creatures, however the "prince of this world" exists, but not as an archon-creature, but as a creature who is a prince. Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince "archon" of this world be cast out. Question: what kind of creature is the "prince of the world"? An archon? NO An archon is a title, not a creature. We have to find a creature, created as a creature, from the beginning and who also sinned from the beginning, long before man sinned. The verse Dave and Jews ignore. ================= DVE" So you teach that angels, devil, demons, and evil spirits are the Holy Spirit – the same as man Dave" Explain what you mean -Rob" I have explained this enough, re read my sentences, stop mocking and ask proper questions. Dave" Now you have a second medium -1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Heb 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. RObPP" Hebrew words are not polysemous.Dave" Make up your mind over the last few weeks you have said that the ruwach – medium – Holy Spirit – wind – and cherubRob" Ruwach means "medium" A medium is a function that carries something. Wind is an example of a medium, because air is carried by air in a temperature gradient. The Holy Spirit is another example of the grand medium, in which the power of the Father is carried into humans as the "breath of life". Cherubims can function as "mediums" carrying the Father's messages across space to humans on earth. I see no polysemy in the word "ruwach" Lots of different applications, but the same word meaning. Dave" Then you insist that angels are biology = why can’t you just say itRob" Because while angels look like humans, eat food like humans and eat manna from heaven which is biological food; there are some things about angels that seems to defy a pure biological state. The sinning angels on earth are around 6,000 years old, and have not died yet. Angels can appear and disappear at will, and many things like that. So these things are difficult to fathom, hence I do not know if angels are purely biological like humans are. Dave" According to you – they cannot be spirit – they are biology – but they are not animals – they are not ethereal or corporeal - they are mediums and the medium is the Holy SpiritRob" Why must you know what kind of body a cherub has? biological or something else? Scripture does not answer this question. Dave" are Angels independent individuals? that sometimes function as mediums ?Rob" Yes to both questions (modified by me) Dave" Definition of etherealRob" Why invent a word you do not know what it means? Dave: "Robert’s word game – so he can deny the teachingROb" Why would I deny a teaching of Scripture? I would not. I only deny inventions of men, made up ideas and word meanings that do not exist in the hebrew. For example Trinity is not a word in the torah. "Spark-spirit" is not a word in the torah. "etheral body" is not in the torah? Shekinah is not in the torah as a word either. RobPP" HOW can a Father speak words?Dave" I’m done with youROB" You did not bother to read my context, did you? In fact your reading ability seems poor. You quoted this: Dave" Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Who spoke the WORD? – who thought of the WORD before it was spoke? God thought the Word – God spoke the Word God EXPRESSED His thought into realityRob" What you are saying is the Father spoke words and formed words long ago, and than made a masculine expression of Himself to carry those words of long ago to the humans on earth as a gospel of good words. Rob" told you to look up Jewish comments on memra. hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/77656/john-11-14-memra-of-the-targumM emra philosophy
Memra philosophy is an intertestamental rabbinical elaboration of what is already present in the Hebrew Bible, namely the treatment of God's Word (Davar) as a person that represents God and shares many of the attributes we would ascribe to Christ.
Here are just a few examples directly from scripture:
God's word can come to you and tell you something: 2 Sam 7.4, Jer 13.2-4, Ezek 13.1
God's word can be eaten (Jer 15.16)
God's word can take up permanent residence in your mouth and children's mouths (Jer 59.21)
God's word can leave God's mouth, perform some action in the earth, and then return back to God. Isaiah 55.11, Isaiah 45.23
God's word can be offended "reproved" by a hearer - Isaiah 37.24, 2 Ki 19.24
God can send his word so that it enters someone or comes and sits on someone else's shoulder Isaiah 9.8
God's word is a "swift runner" - Psalm 147.15 God's word can try you - Psalm 105.19 You can commit a sin against God's word - 1 Chron 10.13 God's word can be with you - 2 Ki 3.12 You can ask questions of God's word - 1 Ki 22.5 You can make God's word more comfortable - 2 Sam 14.17 God's word can be despised or rejected - 2 Sam 12.9, 1 Sam 15.23, Nu 15.30-31 God can put his Word directly in your mouth, and then you only say what God wants - Numbers 23.5 God's word can be feared - Ex 9.20-21 So it's not surprising that, given the extreme hyperliteralism of the rabbis of that period, that a whole doctrine would develop about a personified attribute of God, called the Memra (Aramaic for "saying") that walked, talked, and did things, very much in line with how we view Christ as "The Word".
It is in this sense that John used Logos -- e.g. he was not inspired by Plato, but by rabbinical tradition regarding the Memra teachings in which God's manifestation in the world was primarily as the Memra of God.
From the Aramaic Bible:
The designation for God most characteristic of all the Targums is “the Memra of the Lord.” This is found 314 times in Nf and 636 times in Nfmg; in Frg. Tgs. about 99 times; in CTg text 97 times in texts published by Kahle; in Onq 178 times and 322 in Ps.-J. The Aramaic word mmr’ (rarely written in original form m’mr’ in non-Qumran texts) comes from the root ’mr, “to say.”
Examples of Memra teachings in the Targums it is the Memra that created the world: From the beginning with wisdom the Memra of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth. (Gen 1.1 Neofiti)
Psalm 115:9–12 (The Aramaic Bible, Volume 16: The Targum of Psalms) O Israel, trust in the Memra of the LORD! He is their help and their shield.
O you of the house of Aaron, trust in the Memra of the LORD! He is their help and their shield.
O you who fear the LORD, trust in the Memra of the LORD! He is their help and their shield.
The Memra of the LORD has remembered us; he will bless (us); he will bless the house of Israel; he will bless the house of Aaron;
Psalm 118:6–14 (The Aramaic Bible, Volume 16: The Targum of Psalms) The Memra of the LORD is for me as my help; I shall not fear. What can the son of man do to me?
The Memra of the LORD will help me, and I shall see retribution on those who hate me.
It is better to trust in the Memra of the LORD than to trust in the son of man.
It is better to trust in the Memra of the LORD than to trust in princes.
All the peoples have surrounded me; in the name of the Memra of the LORD I trust that I shall uproot them.
They have surrounded me, yea they have surrounded me; in the name of the Memra of the LORD I trust that I shall uproot them.
They have surrounded me like bees; they blaze like fire among thorns; in the name of the Memra of the LORD I trust that I shall uproot them.
You pushed me hard, O my sin, that I might fall, but the Memra of the LORD helped me.
The LORD, my strength and my song, the terrible one over all the worlds, has spoken through his Memra, and has become my deliverer.Now in this context, I asked you can a Father speak words on His own, to nobody except Himself? The answer is NO. The memra is the personification of the Father as the Son, who is as uncaused from eternity as the Father is. " Write your sentences Dave, so I understand your thinking. I will never mock your thinking, unlike you might to me. I wish to understand why you think the way you think?
How can a person on their own, takes words on their own? Is this possible? Why do this even? Is this even a relational idea?" If you read my context you might have understand my context. I suggest you quote me about the Messanic Jewish ideas of Jesus as the memra. I will post my post you didn't respond to How can a person on their own, takes words on their own? Is this possible? Why do this even? Is this even a relational idea? Sure I understand the Father wrapped in humanity, taking the fathers words in divinity taking divine words to humans wrapped in matter so humans understand. Sure this is nice idea. But how does the Father in divinity take his words of divinity to another person of divinity? He can't. No other person of divinity exists. What is missing when you do not entertain this idea Dave? What is missing? 1) lonely Father - nobody to talk to 2) nobody can take you own words and carry them in you. A Father enjoys the Son become like the Father, by beholding the Son is changed into a Father, no possible if you all alone. 3) no love exchanged - no body to provide form no body to respond to. When my wife dies I am alone. I do not feel like cooking for me only, nobody to talk to, nobody to share memories to, so most couples who lose their one and only soul mate, die also because they have nobody else around that know them. When you reject other divine members, you reject all these as well. Explain this to me. 4) death is defined as separation of divinity. When you have the Father all alone, you have no sense of death. So explain death to me Dave? using the Father alone? You can't. I can explain death, but you can't. Muslims are right saying if the Father is Christ how can the Father die? He can't. So Muslims mock Christ. I can explain this because GOD revealed the answer to me, but you can't nor can mainstream Christian churches either. Jews say the Angel of Death, a good angel doing a bad job, comes and haregs you. This is not death at all, not even close. Death is when everything about that Person ceases to exist, how can a Jew explain this? They can't. Zec 14:12 And this shall be the "striking" (Jeff Benner) wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. Here is the definition of the second death, a striking from GOD, what is this exactly? When matter is ceases to exist, the dissolution of nature itself? Dave" Why do the Jews see the Spirit of God as feminine?She moves among the people – tending the Children of God She is the WOMB of all creation ROb" nice , but does this relate to the Father? Dave" Dave’s answer – the Gnostic answer What Ezekiel saw were multidimensional beings (angels) – not fully 3D – or 4D – or whatever – but multiple forms – just as a 2D image look much different than a 3D imageROb" I can accept this answer, though it doesn't have to be Gnostic. Rather than multidimensional beings ( A Greek or Gnostic view - why not multifunctional functions? A Hebrew view is always about functions, not beings?) Dave" Correct – how can corporeal man describe the ethereal? Light beings – essence – ghostly – spiritual – NOT BIOLOGYROb" Hang on Dave. "light is of matter (particles) and waves (not of matter). " So you cannot speak of ethereal" Light is matter. Biology is of matter. These things cannot be ethereal. My understand is ethereal is not of matter. So when we see visions of GOD as light, lightning and "living creatures (chay), we have a problem. You ethereal idea is not working. God is of matter sometimes, and sometimes of living, (chay) so really is difficult to know, beyond matter, time and space. Dave" Yes – the Glory of God = the Holy SpiritROb" I can accept your idea, the glory face (HS) and the personal presence (YHWH). But you forget one thing, the Shadday is not always written as a function, the Shadday is also personal as a personal being. Ge 17:1 I am the Almighty God; walk before me, Ex 6:3 And I appeared <ra'ah> unto Abraham <'Abraham>, unto Isaac <Yitschaq>, and unto Jacob <Ya`aqob>, (by the name of) God <'el> Almighty <Shadday>, but by my name <shem> JEHOVAH <Y@hovah> was I not known <yada`> to them. Does the Shadday have a name like the YHWH? It seems so according to translators? Nu 24:16 He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open: Most High and Shadday, do they seem to tbe both the same person? Job 5:17 ¶ Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: Why both names discipline humans? If one name exists? Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me. Why both names terror humans? If one name exists? Job 6:14 ¶ To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend; but he forsaketh the fear of the Almighty. Why is the Shadday seen as a friend? Job 8:3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice? Why both names judge humans? If one name exists? Job 11:7 ¶ Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? Why search both names , if one name exists? Job 13:3 Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God. Why talk to the Shadday, if we are to always talk to the Father? Ps 91:1 ¶ He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Explain how the Father becomes a shadow under the Shadday? A shadow is made from two objects, not one object, hence two persons of the elohiym power is here, not one as two expressions, or one as two solid objects. The Father's light is partly blocked by the Shadday and we humans live under the shadow power of the Father. It's important as sinners would perish if exposed to the fall power of the Father. Why don't we perish under the Shadday than? Because the Shadday functions passively and the shadow affect is like a medium affect. The blocking of the power causes a filtered down power flow from the Father. The Shadday administrates this affect. Eze 10:5 ...the Almighty <Shadday> God <'el> when he speaketh <dabar>. The Shadday speaks suggesting the Name is personal. Dave" This is not the teaching from the Nag Hammadi – James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, or Thomas This is a more ancient Gnosticism – not my teachingROb" I thought this. Dave" You already know this – yet you continually post it anyway – for what purpose to you post nonsense and LIES – and misrepresent meROb" I wanted to show you something Dave. Pr 12:15 ¶ The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise. Dave" You already know this – yet you continually post it anyway – for what purpose to you post nonsense and LIES – and misrepresent me
I offered to return the favorROb" Dave the entire Bible is inspired, not a single error in the Hebrew messages, maybe some typos and some verses we cannot verify. But you cannot pick and choose which Gnostic writing you like and which you don't like. Otherwise you are a fool playing around with writings hoping this words will save you. Dave many pretend to be Christian, by their fruits ye will know them. Practical doing, not theory in verses. Show your loving. Dave" It is all under the umbrella of Christianity – therefore you support it allRob" No Dave, I don't. I am sola Scriptoria. Dave" Only you believe the metaphors to be realRob: Similes are real Dave. Love is a river, a Dam fed you some, Clear was it's water, traditionally done. The river, the dam and water are all real stories on their own. The way they function is similes of the way humans function. Love, wife and husband are also real. The invisible flow of love (water) by a controlled process (river) within the home (by a dam) are also all real similes. Dave" LIES and more LIES from Robert Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and satanas, which deceiveth the whole world:Rob" Well it should be easy to falsify me, show me a quote of a Jew agreeing with you? So far you have not done this? Dave" Why does Ellen White deny the NT? Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. (yester ra)ROb" Mrs White uses the term propensites "aven" instead of "yester ra". "Vicious habits and sinful propensities are strengthened and confirmed by these entertainments. Low songs, lewd gestures, expressions, and attitudes deprave the imagination and debase the morals. Every youth who habitually attends such exhibitions will be corrupted in principle. There is no influence in our land more powerful to poison the imagination, to destroy religious impressions, and to blunt the relish for the tranquil pleasures and sober realities of life than theatrical amusements." And The sins of the parents will be visited upon their children, because the parents have given them the stamp of their own lustful propensitiesSo this "Aven" idea termed in English as "propensities" controls the mind with habits to sin, lust as she explains. Dave" how does this prove your satan god rebelled, hates, and opposes God right to rule the universe?Rob" Consider this principle Re 13:4 And the humans worshipped the dragon-power which gave power unto the human-beast-power: How is it possible for humans to worship a dragon power they cannot see, simply because they worship the human beast power whom they can see? Because what a beast power does, it's what a dragon power does. The human is the dragons pawn in a game of chess. Do you agree with this idea?So you can read about the dragon by reading what the human is doing? Do you agree with this idea? This is called law by association.Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Here a human power what to be above the Most HIgh power. So by the law by association, the dragon wants to be above the Most High too. Not only that the Opposer wants to be man's saviour for their sins. Have you ever considered this mock of the Most High? Have you not read the Catholic Church claims over human sinners? And human impute power to this father pope deity on earth in this prophecy? Hab 1:11 Then ...imputing this his power unto his god (eloah). DaVE" Why – because anyone who really studies scripture understands textual criticism No one is correct building an entire religion around a word – or a verse Precept upon precept, line upon line – scripture must validate itself You rewrite the bulk of scripture – or deny portions – to protect you word gameRob" Of course I forgot, Gordon's method, 3 verses are thrown out for the 2000 verses that agree with Gordon. This is not Precept upon precept, line upon line , it's let the bulk verses talk, not all the verses talk, after all the Bible has errors in it's messages? Dave" Why do you have to make it an issueRob " Because a family of multiple faces as a unit is a polytheistic pantheon of a single Father's face. Surely the Father is one face and one function of love, not dual functions of love as you claim. Your multiple faces of the Father spoils the monotheism of the Father's love. Dave" So you deny the teaching of GRACE – unconditional your god only loves you when you love him back - conditionalROb" Off track, not my issue A solitary Father cannot show "sharing, caring, trusting and having faith in, and even talking" unless you have two or more persons of the same kind who are equally as you are. Stick to the question at hand Have you ever been alone Dave? What loving did you do? Dave" The Father's Grace is thought to be a spontaneous gift from God to peopleROb" Bingo!!!!! How does the Father show grace if nobody is around? He can't. People are creatures. A Father is divine. These are not the same, not even close. If I don't act and talk like a dog, my dog will never trust me, so my gracious gift is meaningless. If order for God to be gracious He must show graciousness to his own kind. Dave" Explain how God breathes into you twiceRob" easy one is the breath of life as conditional probation timed to time second is the breath of salvation as unconditional, eternal and no of time, based on faith. Dave" OH – so nothing happens – man is just now under a new covenantROb" Are you kidding, lot's happen Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Also power traits 1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. Even here the idea of a unit is written. Dave igores the verses Dave" What about Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:ROb" Nice Shalom my friend
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Post by Dave on Nov 29, 2023 10:02:51 GMT -5
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ROB" who are these gods than and lords than? This is the last time I will answer this questionThe false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – Gen 3:1 But the serpent was shrewder than any animal of the field that Adonai Elohim made. Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satanas (of Chaldean origin), who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels (messengers) were thrown down with him. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and satanas (of Chaldean origin), which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels (messengers) were cast out with him. The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beings Made by God for God – John 1:3, Col 1:16, Rev 4:11, Gen 1:1; 1:31, Gen 3:1The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beingsYet – they are of different construct than the 3D corporeal creatures of earth They – are invisible to us – yet can appear to us in any form they choose They – have more abilities than man – interdimensional – can manipulate nature The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beingsThey are BEAST – and all beast live by (yester ra) – self-gratification – want – desire - lust If you build them a temple and worship them as a god – they love it – desire it Baal, Molech, Zeus, Saturn, If you bow to another man and worship him as a god – he will love it – desire it = Ceasar / Ito / to many to mention here by name – If you bow to another man and call him a prophet – they will love it – desire it Jim Jones, Miller, White, Smith, Russell, Jimmy Baker, Oral Roberts, Mohammed The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beingsThey are BEAST – and all beast live by (yester ra) – self-gratification – want – desire – lust BEFORE ABRAM WAS CALLED FROM UR – they dominated earth in many formsThe Nephilim of Gen 6 – the Watchers of Enoch Space aliens gods of Sumar – Egypt – and India Reptilian serpents gods of India All of the other-gods of the Levant All of the other gods of the world the great dragon - the ancient serpent, - called the devil and satanas (of Chaldean origin), who deceives the whole world.Deception is their missionMoreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.Anything that takes man’s attention away from God is a deception Evolution – is a sidetrack – a deception Communists – no god but state - is a sidetrack – a deception TOIL – LIFE – chasing wealth, power, or fame in any form that take your time away from God The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beings Made by God for God – John 1:3, Col 1:16, Rev 4:11, Gen 1:1; 1:31, Gen 3:1Gen 3:14 Adonai Elohim said to the serpent, “Because you did this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and above every animal of the field. On your belly will you go, and dust will you eat all the days of your life. For a purposeGen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed (the serpent’s seed – archon) and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.” Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly increase your pain from conception to labor. In pain will you give birth to children. Your desire will be toward your husband, yet he must rule over you.” Gen 3:17 Then to the man He said, “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate of the tree which I commanded you, saying, ‘You must not eat of it’: Cursed is the ground because of you—with pain will you eat of it all the days of your life. Gen 3:18 Thorns and thistles will sprout for you. You will eat the plants of the field, Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow will you eat food, until you return to the ground, since from it were you taken. For you are dust, and to dust will you return.” Gen 3:20 Now Adam named his wife Eve because she was the mother of all the living. Gen 3:21 Adonai Elohim made Adam and his wife tunics of skin and He clothed them. Gen 3:22 Then Adonai Elohim said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. So now, in case he stretches out his hand and takes also from the Tree of Life and eats and lives forever,” Gen 3:23 Adonai Elohim sent him away from the Garden of Eden, to work the ground from which he had been taken. Gen 3:24 And He expelled the man; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He had cheruvim dwell along, with the whirling sword of flame, to guard the way to the Tree of Life. For a purposeAnd before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beings Made by God for God – Gen 1:1, 1:31, Gen 3:1, 3:14, John 1:3, Col 1:16, Rev 4:11, Rev 12:3-10 They were never good guy angels of the LordGod created angels to serve and praise God created ants to be ants God created cows to be cows The suggestion that any created being of any type can change its created form and function – against God’s Will is REJECTED The suggestion that any created being of any type can change God’s Plan for His own creation against God’s Will is REJECTED
The suggestion that Ezk 28 – two words of a metaphor – prove Catholic satan rebels, hates, and opposes God is REJECTEDDave" The challenge to you since the very beginning 1- precept upon precept, line upon line – validate your Ezk 28 Catholic satan god from scripture I have asked you to go through each line of scripture and demonstrate how your satan god rebels, hates, or opposes God. You do not have any – because you Catholic satan god never existed until Rome invented him ROB" OK - I will endeavor to do this tomorrow You have had 4 years to do so – there is 3 or 4 different threads on this forum allowing you do present your evidence – why do you say you will finally do what was required of you for 4 years now? Your credibility is lacking – non-existent After 4 years – you have proven beyond a doubt that you have nothing of substance to offer – except to contradict whatever is presented for sport------------------------------------------ and whom is Jesus Christ? An expression of a Father, or a second strong authority of divinity? Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. God the Father = no man can see – beyond our experience The Spirit of God – God invisible – man can experience but cannot see – Holy Spirit Christ – God visible – the image of God Jesus = a man – an animal – biology (yester ra) Jesus Christ = Jesus (biology) + Christ (the image of God – God incarnate) God can and does Tabernacle with man – in a Tent – in a Temple – in Jesus (God incarnate) Christ is not another god – Christ is God Jesus Christ is not another god – He is God Tabernacle-ing with man – incarnate – as man ====================== Dave" There is Only God Rob" I don't have a problem that there is only one elohiym power. But you do not understand what a unit means. You have multiple gods working together as a team – REJECTED Absolute pagan nonsense – insulting to Judaism and therefore Judeo-ChristianityDeu 4:35 the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. WOW – Robert sure denies this verse - - he has multiple gods – that cannot do any wounding – and his satan jumped out of God’s control--------------------------------------------- Ps 77:20 Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron. All these words are masculine singular, and it seems odd that it should read like this? In English we would say " by the hands of Moses and Aaron". Yep – the RIGHT HAND is the hand of instruction and salvation You claim it is too complicate for you to grasp – we believe you
How can God lead his flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron? Yep – the RIGHT HAND is the hand of instruction and salvation You claim it is too complicate for you to grasp – we believe youIt makes sense, because GOD declared Moses and Aaron a elohiym power, ie a unit.ABSOLUTE BULL SHITGe 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, (KJV) Here the translation is wrong, the word had is plural, Ge 19:10 But the men put forth their hands, and pulled Lot into the house to them (Hebrew Bible hub) But for Ps 77:20 the hand is singular, not plural. ABSOLUTE BULL SHIT – learn to translateYour credibility is lacking – non-existent After 4 years – you have proven beyond a doubt that you have nothing of substance to offer – except to contradict whatever is presented for sportוַ @pcיִּשְׁלְח֤וּ @vqw3mp הָֽ @paאֲנָשִׁים֙ @ncmpa אֶת־ @po+Haיָדָ֔ם @ncfsc+X3mp וַ @pcיָּבִ֧יאוּ @vhw3mp אֶת H3027 יָד yad (yawd) n-f.@-nc-f-s-c-X-3-m-p @: Hebrew origin nc: noun-common f: feminine s: singular c: construct X: suffiX 3: 3rd person m: masculine p: pluralThis is interesting in Hebrew - the construct differs from the spelling The word hand is SINGULAR – but its contruct / CONTEXT / syntax = plural – Why? The verb is plural – THEY PUT FORTH H7971 שָׁלחַ shalach (shaw-lach') v. @-v-q-w-3-m-p @: Hebrew origin v: verb q: qal w: wayyiqtol form (also known as waw-consecutive) 3: 3rd person m: masculine p: plural The verb is plural – THEY PUT FORTH – their (pl) hand (singular)Ge 19:10 But the men put forth their hands, But for Ps 77:20 the hand is singular, not plural.ABSOLUTE BULL SHIT – learn to translateThe men did NOT put in BOTH hands = 2 men = 4 hands Both men each put in one hand = 2 men = 2 hands Both men put in their RIGHT HANDYou claim it is too complicate for you to grasp – we believe you=============== Dave" The king of Tyre is like a covering cherub – you say the cherub is more real than the King of Tyre Rob" Both objects in the poem are real. – NO The cherub and King Tyre. – NOPE – the King of Tyre is LIKE A covering cherub Both are creatures. – YEP – one real and one just a metaphorBoth sin. – nope only the real one – man – the King of TyreThe false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beings Made by God for God – Gen 1:1, 1:31, Gen 3:1, 3:14, John 1:3, Col 1:16, Rev 4:11, Rev 12:3-10 They were never good guy angels of the LordGod created angels to serve and praise God created ants to be ants God created cows to be cows The suggestion that any created being of any type can change its created form and function – against God’s Will is REJECTED
The suggestion that any created being of any type can change God’s Plan for His own creation against God’s Will is REJECTED
The suggestion that Ezk 28 – two words of a metaphor – prove Catholic satan rebels, hates, and opposes God is REJECTEDDave" The challenge to you since the very beginning 1- precept upon precept, line upon line – validate your Ezk 28 Catholic satan god from scripture I have asked you to go through each line of scripture and demonstrate how your satan god rebels, hates, or opposes God. You do not have any – because you Catholic satan god never existed until Rome invented him ROB" OK - I will endeavor to do this tomorrow You have had 4 years to do so – there is 3 or 4 different threads on this forum allowing you do present your evidence – why do you say you will finally do what was required of you for 4 years now? Your credibility is lacking – non-existent After 4 years – you have proven beyond a doubt that you have nothing of substance to offer – except to contradict whatever is presented for sport================ Dave" Now you say the 10 Commandment do not apply to the beast Rob" No I don't. Prove to me your archon beasts were created and made as shedim. The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beings Made by God for God – Gen 1:1, 1:31, Gen 3:1, 3:14, John 1:3, Col 1:16, Rev 4:11, Rev 12:3-10 They were never good guy angels of the Lord------------------------------ The verse says the shedim sin like humans sin, hence the sinning creature has free will to sin. What creature other than humans have sinned? 1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. 1Jn 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. LIE – does not say demos sin like humans do – it says humans sin like demons do------------------------------------- DavePreviousPost" Satanas oppose Creation. Nobody can oppse GOD." Rob" Isn't this a contradiction? Dave" Uses Eph 6:12 to prove archons exist as beast-creatures. Question: what kind of creature is the "prince of the world"? An archon? NO archon is a title, not a creature.Yes – the archon is a title – King Solomon called them shedim - some people call them demonic, some call them the serpent race, Islam calls them the Jinn, and the first century NT Greek authors called the archonWe have to find a creature, created as a creature, from the beginning and who also sinned from the beginning, long before man sinned.Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. Sorry Robert the Reality of the Archon is 100% real and in your face Your attempt to deny the demonic forces in the world is REJECTED================= DVE"So you teach that angels, devil, demons, and evil spirits are the Holy Spirit – the same as man Dave" Explain what you mean - Rob" I have explained this enough, re read my sentences, stop mocking and ask proper questions. Are angels unique independent individuals – spirits/ruwach/mediums/winds – or are they just the Holy Spirit
Are demons – delves – the beast – satanas – unique independent individual evils/pirits/ruwach/winds – or are they just the Holy Spirit
Is man a unique independent individual – spirit/ruwach/mediums/winds – or are they just the Holy Spirit
You talk and talk and talk – ANSWER THE QUESTION – or stop posting hereDave" are Angels independent individuals? that sometimes function as mediums ? Rob" Yes to both questions (modified by me)What are they – that they can become mediums by their own power You talk and talk and talk – ANSWER THE QUESTION – or stop posting hereRob" Why must you know what kind of body a cherub has? biological or something else? Scripture does not answer this question.Scripture calls them spirit – angelic spirits – evils spirits – unclean spirits You demand that spirit does not exist – and you play 20 word games to deny that spirit exist So explain what you mean – ANSWER THE QUESTION – or stop posting hereYour credibility is lacking – non-existent After 4 years – you have proven beyond a doubt that you have nothing of substance to offer – except to contradict whatever is presented for sport ------------------------------------------- Dave" Definition of ethereal Rob" Why invent a word you do not know what it means?I do know what it means - 1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. ------------------------------------------ Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. RobPP" HOW can a Father speak words? Dave" I’m done with you ROB" You did not bother to read my context, did you? How can a person on their own, takes words on their own? Is this possible? Why do this even? Is this even a relational idea? YOU ARE INSULTING TO GOD – TO ME – TO THE FAITH-------------------------------------- Dave" Why does Ellen White deny the NT? Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. (yester ra) Mrs White uses the term propensites "aven" instead of "yester ra". WORD GAME ----------------------------------- Dave" how does this prove your satan god rebelled, hates, and opposes God right to rule the universe? Rob" Consider this principle Re 13:4 And the humans worshipped the dragon-power which gave power unto the human-beast-power: How is it possible for humans to worship a dragon power they cannot see, simply because they worship the human beast power whom they can see? Because what a beast power does, it's what a dragon power does. The human is the dragons pawn in a game of chess. Do you agree with this idea? So you can read about the dragon by reading what the human is doing? Do you agree with this idea? This is called law by association. The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beings Made by God for God – Gen 1:1, 1:31, Gen 3:1, 3:14, John 1:3, Col 1:16, Rev 4:11, Rev 12:3-10 They were never good guy angels of the LordThere are not two gods in heaven locked in a cosmic struggle over God’s right to rule the universe There is only one SUPREME BEING – only ONE GOD – above all creationWithin creation there are created beings that pretend to be gods if you worship them ---------------------------------------- Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Here a human power what to be above the Most HIgh power. YEP – a HUMAN – and he is delusional – wrong – in error – full of himself – inflated ego Only to be proven wrongSo by the law by association, the dragon wants to be above the Most High too. IS AN ASSUMPTION------------------------------------------------ Dave" So you deny the teaching of GRACE – unconditional your god only loves you when you love him back - conditional Have you ever been alone Dave? What loving did you do? You anthropomorphize the Creator – God is not a man or biologyPeople are creatures. A Father is divine. These are not the same, not even close. You say it – but do not believe it – just more BULL SHIT contradiction from youDave" The Father's Grace is thought to be a spontaneous gift from God to people ROb" Bingo!!!!! How does the Father show grace if nobody is around? He can't. ANSWER - And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.The Parable of the Lost Sheep - Luk 15:1 -7 The Parable of the Lost Coin - Luk 15:8- The Parable of the Prodigal Son - Luk 15:11-24 We first find this prayer in the book of Deuteronomy. Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one. And as for you, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. -------------- Dave" Explain how God breathes into you twice Rob" easy one is the breath of life as conditional probation timed to time Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Also power traits 1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. Dave" What about Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Even here the idea of a unit is written. Dave igores the verses Blah blah blah – ANSWER THE QUESTION or stop posting hereDave" Dave" why the new word QUICKENED? Do you know? Rob" It's not a new word, it means "living". Ps 71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, Explain how God makes you alive twice? Ps 80:18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, Are these dead people asking to be made alive? Ps 119:88 ¶ Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; Is this a dead person asking to be made alive? Ps 143:11 Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: How does God make a grown man – who is alive - alive? You are so wrong Dave. Lucky for me the KJV translates chayah as quicken.... it's an old Hebrew word meaning. You still have not told us what the definition is? Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: You have no spirit – no spiritual – everything is just biology for you Explain the QUICKENING OF THE SPIRIT
Make an honest attempt to answer – or do not return
UnlessYou are wlling to address D question about Ellen White's Covenant Theology You are ready to discuss Rabbi Cahn's video about wresteling with the Principalities / Archon Or you are willing to explain why you consider the sin of Eve as a sacrifice to the Lord (Rom 5:12) Or you are willing to answer why 1 Jhn 3:8 fits with Gen 1:2 + Gen 1:31 PS - thanks for proof reading my paper for me - good to know I can count on you as my friend and brother in Christ
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Post by rob on Nov 29, 2023 16:39:20 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Reading through previous posts of Dave, I find some anomilies:- ===(1)=== Gnostic not the right hand created, but the left hand ie the HS created the archon beast herself. (This is a violation of the Hebrew Bible - there is not any evidence of elohiym power with the HS creating. A medium cannot create, A medium carries the flow of power from a source to another source, hence the Son created, the HS responded using the power of the words (memra) that are the Father's power. ) Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. A reference to the SON (me) and the FATHER (YHWH) from eternal past. Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: A reference to "wisdom" written as "she", the HS or medium was presence administrating the words of Jesus, using the power of the Father. Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. "dabar" words of the YHWH, via the Medium of His mouth. Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? 5 Every word of God is pure: Here is a passage with three members of eloihym powers listed "ruwach", "memra" and "eloah" The "memra" is referenced as the "son's name" Question for Dave: Show me any verse in the torah of the Medium (HS) creating anything herself, without her consort. No such verse exists, no such concept exists. ===2=========== Listen to this video of Pastor Morris Beware of Chaldeans youtu.be/qn1iqZg8pzIHe uses a Paul verse Ac 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. The Chaldeans lived in marshes in the capital Azuk, and they took over Babylon, Nebuzzeduar the first of the Chaldeans. But now they were destroyed, so why does God speak of them still alive? Question for Dave" If the word "satanas" is a Chaldean word? where is the word found and used in Babylonian literature? I cannot find a single reference on the Internet. =====3============== The yester ra / yester tov Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left. What is this voice in our ears? Ro 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, What is the conscious? And what is the voice of the conscious? Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. WHOM is behind the conscience that convicts? Ro 9:1 ¶ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, The conscious is the voice of the HS bearing witness of eloihym power. How can the yester ra or the yester tov, live inside the conscious as a voice? Answer it doesn't. 1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Obviously the Opposer wishes to sear the conscious so the still small voice of God is drowned out and the Devil can make /influence humans to sin, like the sinning angels do. Question" the evil inclination is not a voice inside your head, influencing you to sin? It is the voice of the opposer, just as the medium is also a voice from God. If the evil inclination is really all there is to human sin, how come the VOICE inside our heads , ie conscience? =====4========= Notice how Hebrew names function yasha means to save. Adding the hey letter, the letter meaning behold the Person, we have moved from a verb to a person who saves. Yashauh means the Saviour who saves. satan means to oppose, adding the hey letter, the Hebrew only a few times makes the function into a Personal Opposer, thus "the opposer" hey-satan. The Greeks saw this idea and made the satan into a name, adding the suffix "as" hence Satanas. hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/19126/does-the-word-satan-ever-show-up-in-the-new-testamentYes. The Hebrew שָׂטָן (śāṭān) is frequently transliterated into Greek as σαταν (satan) or σατανᾶς (satanas) — 36 times in the New Testament. The word διάβολος (diabolos) is also used (37 times). Diabolos is technically an adjective meaning “slanderous”, and it is occasionally used attributively, describing people (e.g. 1 Tim 3:11). However, like satan(as) — which in the Hebrew Bible generally refers to a/the a/Adversary — the more common NT usage is as a designation of a particular transcedent evil being. Most English translations reflect the distinction between these words by using “Satan” for [ho] satan(as) or “the devil” for [ho] diabolos. (Both occur most often with the article ho.) For instance, in Matthew 4:1-11, the story of the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, the narrator uses ὁ διάβολος (ho diabolos) repeatedly; Jesus addresses the same character as σατανᾶ (satana, vocative from satanas) in verse 10: ὕπαγε, σατανᾶ· Be gone, Satan! (ESV) Revelation 20:2 also makes it clear that the referent is the same: καὶ ἐκράτησεν τὸν δράκοντα, ὁ ὄφις ὁ ἀρχαῖος, ὅς ἐστιν Διάβολος καὶ ὁ Σατανᾶς, καὶ ἔδησεν αὐτὸν χίλια ἔτη and he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil (Διάβολος, diabolos) and Satan (ὁ Σατανᾶς, ho satanas), and bound him for a thousand years (ESV) The preferred term in the Septuagint for translating the Hebrew śāṭān from into Greek is diabolos. See, for instance, Job. The only usages of the Greek transliteration satan I find are two appearances in 3 Reigns 11:14, corresponding to 1 Kings 11 vv. 14 and 25 in the Hebrew/English numbering. These refer to Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the son of Eliada - each “an adversary” raised up by God against Solomon and Israel, respectively. Why the New Testament authors often preferred to use the transliterated Hebrew term despite the established Septuagint usage in of diabolos as a translation of śāṭān is beyond me, and probably beyond the scope of this question, but it is an interesting one. latin.stackexchange.com/questions/2918/what-is-the-meaning-of-satanasWhat is the meaning of the as ending in Satanas? It came to Latin from Hebrew (שָּׂטָן satan), through Greek (Σατανᾶς satanas) and means enemy, adversary. In Judaism and Christianity, it is also one of the names given to the devil, a supernatural creature that lead a rebelion against God and one of the main instigators of evil in the World. The -as ending is purely grammatical. As can be seen, it was added in ancient Greek as a common ending of nouns in that language. Is the name first declension in Latin and Greek? – Modified first (as with most masculine Greek names ending in -as: n. -as, v. -a, acc. -am, etc.) In Greek it is masculine first, if I am not mistaken. – If I am not mistaken, שָּׂטָן literally means "adversary," translated into Greek as "διάβολος," from which Latin gets "diabolus" and English "devil." It's a similar case with "Messias," which is sometimes transliterated into Greek and other times translated as "Christus." – Satan originally doesn’t mean enemy but accuser. This is particularly clear in the book of Iob The -as here is actually the Greek masculine ending -ᾱς. It's a dialectal variation on the -ης (-ēs) you see in names like Socrates, Euripides, Achilles, and so on: probably the most common ending for male names in Ancient Greek. So when people started translating the Bible and the Torah into Ancient Greek, and came across the word שָׂטָן (satan, "adversary"), they had two choices for how to represent it. One option was to translate it literally, with the Greek word διάβολος (diábolos, "betrayer"). The other option was to take the word satan and just respell it in the Greek alphabet as σαταν. In the end, translators weren't consistent. Sometimes they used diábolos, sometimes they used satan. But satan doesn't look much like a Greek word, and if anything would be an accusative form, which is just confusing. So since the Hebrew satan is masculine, they stuck the most common Greek masculine ending onto it, creating Satanâs.When the Bible then came into Latin, the translators had three options: translate the word again into Latin, transcribe the Greek word, or transcribe the Hebrew word. They generally chose the second, so the Latin Vulgate has diabolus and Satanas (whence English "diabolical", "Satanic"). You'll also often see the form Satana with no final -s (as in the Exorcism of Saint Benedict, which starts vade retro Satana, "go back, Satan"). This is what happens when the word assimilates a little bit into Latin: the native Latin equivalent of Greek -ās is -a. It's very close to the original Greek form found in Homer, -ᾱ (-ā), and it's the form we see in older borrowings like poeta "poet". It's more Latin than the Greek -ās, so it's more common for thoroughly assimilated words than for names (the legendary hero Aeneas always keeps his -s). If the suffix is purely grammar, than it is up to Dave to prove evidence the word is brand new creature, apart from the Hebrew Opposer. I am still waiting from your evidence, or a scholarly study on this idea. ======5======= I read from Dave's previous post Maximus Confessor (580-662) believe Satan is God's enemy. Is Maxiumus considered before Roman Edit, after all he was tortured to death for his faith and many writings exist so we may have a pre-Roman person about the faith. Question" DO you have any links of his writings? ======6====== Gnostic theory is about a "god of evil" demiurge making the present world we humans have to live in, but I notice Dave does not entertain these Gnostic views. So you pick and choose among Gnostic writings.... I find it difficult to study your view, as you have nobody who agrees with you on the subject matter. When I look up "archons" there is plenty of videos out there, but it's hard to find any about the word "satanas" as a separate creature being. You have to prove this to me, and show me any scholar study that agrees with your ideas. Dave writes " If the Beast of Revelation is the same as the Hebrew Satan, the Bible is NOT consistent." Why does the Opposer have to be "bad" all the time as Kelly's assertion? Balaam opposed GOD, and God opposed Balaam, but Balaam was influenced to bless Israel, rather than curse Israel. Cyrus is another person whom God used for good, rather than his natural stand of being "bad"? Consider this study A brief history of belief in the Devil.www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1017-04992013000300013ABSTRACT It is strange but true: belief in the Devil is alive. This fact is brilliantly argued by Robert Muchembled in his book A History of the Devil: From the Middle Ages to the Present (2003). He says: "In fact, for almost a thousand years, he had never really gone away. The devil has been part of the fabric of European life since the Middle Ages, and has accompanied all its major changes" (Muchembled 2003:1). This article presents a brief history of the origin and development of the belief in Satan from the First Temple period (950-586 BCE) to the Second Temple period (539 BCE-70 CE) in order to answer the questions: When did the belief in the Satan appear? Could Judaism and Christianity do without this character? If you asked a theologian the question (...): Who is Satan? he would doubtless answer: Satan is the Commander-in-chief of the fallen angels. (Corte 1958:7) Introduction Almost thirty years ago, Jimmie Loader published an article in the Afrikaans newspaper Beeld titled "Liefs na die duiwel met ou Niek!" ("To Hell with Old Nick"). He argued that the Devil ("Old Nick") is a non-existent beast, since a truly monotheistic religion cannot accommodate two eternal forces responsible for events in the world (Loader 1984).2 His argument is similar to that of Cees den Heyer, who says: " Monotheism is a 'game' with no more than two players, God and human beings. The origin of evil and human suffering cannot be sought outside these two players" (1998:29). These may be good theological arguments encouraging modern-day Christian believers to discard belief in the Devil, but they are at variance with what we know of Second Temple Judaism. The present article argues that Second Temple Judaism, a monotheistic religion which evolved out of Yahwism (a polytheistic religion), could not satisfactorily explain the suffering experienced by the Jews during the Hellenistic and Roman periods. Believers consequently resorted to belief in Satan (Belial/Lucifer/Devil) as a way of making sense of their world. This historical overview may help us to understand why some modern-day Christians still believe in the Devil. For some reason, they are unable to accept complete responsibility for things that happen to them or for which they are partly responsible. Think of Hansie Cronjé, the former South African cricket captain, who claimed that the Devil made him become involved in match-fixing. On the other hand, there are theologians like Carl Braaten who, contrary to Loader and Cees den Heyer, argue that "True Christianity is stuck with the Devil ..." Christianity cannot do without this character (cf. Oldridge 2012:92). If one wishes to understand the origin of belief in Satan in Second Temple Judaism and early Christianity, one has to study the history of Israel's religion. The information presented in the following sections is not based on original research into the two religions but on recent research conducted by other biblical scholars. However, none of the latter focused exclusively on the introduction of Satan into the religion of Israel. This article is an attempt to dovetail their research with research into apocalypticism, Second Temple Judaism and early Christianity in order to gauge when Satan became an important character and why.3 Moreover, this article would like to engage with Braaten's statement that Christianity cannot do without this character. A short history of Israel's religion and the belief in Satan Preliminary comments The first step in research into belief in Satan is to consider the use of the word satan in the Old Testament. Depending on the context, the Hebrew word satan can act as a noun or a verb. The verb is usually translated as "to bear a grudge"/"to cherish animosity"/" to oppose" (cf. Ps 38:21; 71:37; 109:4, 20, 29). The noun is usually translated as "opponent"/"adversary" and can refer to either a human or a heavenly being. There are only three books in the Old Testament in which the noun is used to refer exclusively to a heavenly being: Zechariah 3:1-2; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7:1 Chronicles 21:1.4 However, none of these books characterises "Satan" as Yahweh's opponent; he is merely a member of the heavenly court. When it comes to the use of the noun in the three books, it is important to remember that none of the books originated during the First Temple period (950-586 BCE). They were all written during the Second Temple period (539 BCE-70 CE). This leads to the questions: Why do the earlier books not mention this character? Why do we read about him only in material written during the Second Temple period? If these questions are to be answered, recent research into the religion of Israel has to be consulted. First Temple period (950-586 BCE) Younger biblical scholars studying the religion of Israel are unanimous that this religion was not monotheistic from the start (Albertz 2009:374; 2011:37). Yahwism, Israel's religion during the First Temple period (950586 BCE), was, like other Northwest Semitic religions, polytheistic (Niehr 1995:71-72; Smith 2004:101-110). Even scholars who do not accept the current consensus viewpoint acknowledge that places and personal names of Iron Age I reflect polytheistic worship in Israel: "The place names and the personal names preserved from Iron Age I reveal the designations of at least five deities that were known in Palestine at this time" (Hess 2007:242). The five deities are: (1) Baal; (2) Astarte; (3) the divine sun (semes); (4) the moon deity Yerah; and (5) Anat (Baal's consort) (Hess 2007:242-245). The Israelites living during the First Temple period evidently believed in the existence of more than one god. In other words, they believed in a pantheon of gods. Some of the psalms give evidence of this: God takes his place in the court of heaven to pronounce judgement among the gods: 'How much longer will you judge unjustly and favour the wicked?' (Ps 82:1-2).5 In the skies who is there like the LORD; who like the LORD in the court of heaven, a God dreaded in the council of the angels, great and terrible above all who stand about him? LORD God of Hosts, who is like you? Your strength and faithfulness, LORD, are all around you (Ps 89:6-8).6 Like other Northwest Semitic peoples, the Israelites believed that there was a palace in heaven where a supreme deity lived with his wife and children. They were attended by a host of servants, some of whom had the task of communicating with human beings, keeping them informed about the plans and wishes of the supreme deity. The story of Jacob's dream reflects something of this. He saw a staircase, with angels descending and ascending and, although, he did not receive a message via these angels but directly from Yahweh, it is evident that Yahweh is accompanied by angels (Gen 28:1015). The story recounting how King Jehoshaphat consulted a number of prophets before he and Ahab, the King of Israel, launched an attack on Ramoth-gilead may also serve as an example. A prophet called Micaiah disagreed with the other prophets and warned the kings that an attack would lead to defeat. King Ahab was not impressed by this prophecy and accused the prophet of never having a good word for him as king. Micaiah then narrated a vision he had seen. He said: I saw the LORD seated on his throne, with all the host of heaven in attendance on his right and on his left. The LORD said, "Who will entice Ahab to go up and attack Ramothgilead?" One said one thing and one said another, until a spirit came forward and, standing before the LORD, said, "I shall entice him". "How?" said the LORD. "I shall go out", he answered, "and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets." "Entice him; you will succeed," said the LORD. "Go and do it" (1 Kings 22: 19-22).7 It was now up to the kings to decide whether they should follow this advice or that given by the other prophets. The Israelite divine pantheon was structured hierarchically, like all other pantheons. It had four tiers (Smith 2004:105-119). The top tier was inhabited by the supreme god and his consort. Below them were their children, often referred to as the "sons of God." The next tier was inhabited by the servants and caretakers. The lowest level was the home of the messengers and roamers. This group is called mal'ákîm in Hebrew, the standard translation for which is "angels". The angels had two tasks: (1) to keep the supreme god informed about what was happening on earth, and (2) to share his plans and desires with humans on earth. Those who kept the supreme god informed may be called "roamers", while those who carried his messages may be called "dispatchers". The supreme god was not omniscient, but, rather, was well informed by the angels roaming the earth. The angels who visited Abraham at the terebinth of Mamre, and later on, Lot at Sodom, may serve as examples of dispatchers (Gen 18:2, 22; 19:1, 12-13). Rob " This study has some errors in it, hence why we should not seek humans for evidence, but seek torah only.None of the angels are mentioned by name during this period in Israel's history. This may be because they were regarded as the lower-ranking members of the pantheon. This eventually changed during the Second Temple period and, more specifically, the Hellenistic period (Collins 1999:339). There are two other groups of heavenly beings which readers will encounter in their reading of the Old Testament: (1) the seraphim, and (2) the cherubim. They probably belonged in the third tier of the pantheon. The seraphim were snakelike gods with six wings (Is 6:1-3; 14:29; 30:6), while the cherubim looked like winged lions. According to one tradition in the Old Testament, the cherubim guarded the entrance to the Garden of Eden which was located in the East (Gen 3:24; Ezek. 28:14). According to another tradition they had to guard the life in the divine garden (Ezek 41:17-25). Apart from this they were responsible for transporting the supreme god's throne. Yahweh is often referred to as "the LORD of Hosts who is enthroned upon the cherubim" (1 Sam 4:4; 2 Sam 6:2; Is 37:16; Ezek 10:20-22). The temple in Jerusalem had two statues of cherubim (1 Ki 6:29-35), beneath which stood the Ark of the Covenant (1 Ki 8:6-8) Rob: " This study is interesting and we should study early Hebrew history to answer the question of the Elohiym power and the Opposer.========================================= Greetings Dave Dave" This is the last time I will answer this question The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast –ROB" If GOD created satanas beast creature, as a false elohiym power, than it is not an elohiym power is it? The above study agrees with me, so sombody is wrong with the reading of the Hebrew verses Ps 82:1 The elohiym judgeth among the eloihym's. Why? Ps 82:6 ¶ I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 1) humans are elohiym too, arising from sin, even though originally children of the Most High. Now does the Psalm also list another elohiym power that is not from human origin, but also a "son of the Most High" and also "sins" thus becomes a "false elohiym" power? Ps 82:7 ...fall like one of the princes. This word in Hebrew "sar" is the NT word "Archon" in Greek. Even Tabor agrees that the "sar" of this world is "satan" Why does Dave not agree with his video message, why didn't Tabor state that satanas is the prince or the world, but instead said satan is the prince of the world. He asks how did this change happen? Dave" The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beings Made by God for GodRob" So these satanas (shedim) creatures are made by GOD for God's purpose? What about Lam 3:38? Dave" they are of different construct than the 3D corporeal creatures of earth They – are invisible to us – yet can appear to us in any form they chooseROb" I suspect they still have their functional powers of being a medium, as Ps 104 says. the messengers do medium functions. Ps 104:4 Who maketh his messengers a medium. Both of these words are titles of functions. What creature kind would a messenger of God be? ANswer cherub Would you agree with this Dave, or do you have another creature in mind like archon, a creature kind that does not exist in Scripture as an animal kind. Dave" the great dragon - the ancient serpent, - called the devil and satanas (of Chaldean origin), who deceives the whole worldROb" Show me any CHaldean text with the word "satanas" in it or even as a name for some devil in their culture? Dave" Made by God for God – John 1:3, Col 1:16, Rev 4:11, Gen 1:1; 1:31, Gen 3:1Rob" none of these verses speak of the archon created. I can show you cherub created and cherub sinned, and cherub from the beginning, but you ignore all this? Instead you make up stuff. No scholar agrees with you. Dave" Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed (the serpent’s seed – archon) and her seed.ROb" prove the serpent is an archon? I can prove to you the serpent is a saraph function, one that burning with fire and was closest to God, hence the creature cherub, but you ignore all this too? You on the other hand have shown me nothing from Scritpure about the archons. Dave" They were never good guy angels of the LordROb" I see do part of God's creative ability is to also create bad creatures? Lam 3:38 I do not think so. You claim the shark wasa carnivore before man sinned? That trees died naturally and turned into coal before man sinned? That the term natural death is a cycle of living, before Adam sinned, meaning you like the idea that GOD can do both function and dysfunction before any human even sinned? Lam 3:38 I do not think so. Show me a Jewish quote you agrees with you on this? Dave" The suggestion that any created being of any type can change its created form and functionROb" so the mozzie drinking nectar is not allowed to drink blood after Adam sinned, because that would require a second creation? So you reject a clever Creator to begin with? Dave" 1- precept upon precept, line upon line – validate your Ezk 28 Catholic satan god from scripture I have asked you to go through each line of scripture and demonstrate how your satan god rebels,ROb" I did this....only three verses have a hey-satan, the NT I cannot use because of your satanas idea. I also use other verses and other themes, you ignored them all. Dave" You have had 4 years to do so – there is 3 or 4 different threads on this forum allowing you do present your evidenceROb" read the a brief history of the belief in the Devil. And make your comments please. Dave" After 4 years – you have proven beyond a doubt that you have nothing of substance to offer Rob " WHy must I find human evidence? You reject the torah and ask me to find human evidence instead? Dave" Christ is not another god – Christ is GodROb" clear you did not read nor understand the Jewish idea of memra. Dave" You have multiple gods working together as a team – REJECTEDROb" read the paper I posted, of Israel history 900 BC. Ge 20:13 And it came to pass, when "elohyim's" (plural context) caused me to wander from my father's house, Is this another verse you ignore like Gordon ignores?========== COmmenting upon Ps 77:20 :the hand of Moses and Aaron RobPP" It makes sense, because GOD declared Moses and Aaron a elohiym power, ie a unit.Dave" ABSOLUTE BULL SHIT
Rob" I notice you try to explain after you cool down Dave" The men did NOT put in BOTH hands = 2 men = 4 hands Both men each put in one hand = 2 men = 2 hands Both men put in their RIGHT HAND You claim it is too complicate for you to grasp – we believe youRob" Hmm? I do not follow you. Dave" Both are creatures. – YEP – one real and one just a metaphor Both sin. – nope only the real one – man – the King of TyreRob" You cannot follow poetry can you? If both are creatures, both creatures are real, so how can you say one is a metaphor? Ps 77:16 The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: So the water is real and the humans are real, but the water is a metaphor and therefore not real. This is your weird thinking. Water and humans are both real, was is a simile of the human. Dave" They were never good guy angels of the LordROb" explain Lam 3:38 than and Jewish commentary on this? Dave" The suggestion that any created being of any type can change its created form and function – against God’s Will is REJECTEDROb" so change is not allowed in a Creature design? I see? Care to comment? God did not write change in the DNA? RobPP" Prove to me your archon beasts were created and made as shedim.Dave does not prove, he copy and paste. =========== Dave" LIE – does not say demons sin like humans do – it says humans sin like demons doROB" Oh so the Law of Association is not applied here. 1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Lets see if the Greek word "sin" is the same for both creatures? 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth <poieo> sin <hamartia> is <esti> of <ek> the devil <diabolos>; for <hoti> the devil <diabolos> sinneth <hamartano> from <apo> the beginning <arche>. Hmm? I am surprised the Greek words are different? Would you agree Dave that hamartia is a different word meaning than hamartano? 1Jo 3:6 Whosoever <pas> abideth <meno> in <en> him <autos> sinneth <hamartano> not <ou>: whosoever <pas> sinneth <hamartano> hath <horao> not <ou> seen <horao> him <autos>, neither <oude> known <ginosko> him <autos>. Here we see humans doing hamartano? the verse before. So why does John write hamartia is association with the devil? Dave" Yes – the archon is a title – King Solomon called them shedimROb" wow I also agree. SO where does the shedim/archon/sar as a creature made known in Scripture? Or if you choose to ignore Ezek28, nobody knows. Hence the problem. Dave" the Reality of the Archon is 100% real and in your faceROb" I also agree But as a creature WHOM is the archon/sar/shedim? Or if you choose to ignore Ezek28, nobody knows. Hence the problem. Dave" Are angels unique independent individuals –ROb" Yes they are Dave" Are demons – – unique independent individuals?Rob" Hmm? a shedim - demon - devil is a title of a creature. The creatures can function as demons yes, but only if they choose to, some creatures choose to function as messengers of light, to deceive. Dave" Is man a unique independent individual Rob" Yes indeed. Dave" You talk and talk and talk – ANSWER THE QUESTION ROb" I did, see above. Dae" What are they – that they can become mediums by their own powerROb" If a creature carries a message, it functions as a medium. How is that hard to understand. Your postman is a kind of medium, carrying messages. Dave" Scripture calls them spirit – angelic spirits – evils spirits – unclean spiritsRob" the term spirit is a function, not the name of a creature which functions as a spirit. You do not investigage whom the creature could be? Dave" You demand that spirit does not exist ROb" I have not said this, as a creature they do exist, they also function as a medium. Dave" I do know what it means - 1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.ROb" Like I said the term is not revealed, so we do not know. Stop pretending you know, we both do not know. Dave" YOU ARE INSULTING TO GOD – TO ME – TO THE FAITHROb" did you read the talgums on the meaning of memra? Rob" PP " Mrs White uses the term propensites "aven" instead of "yester ra". Dave" WORD GAMERob" "aven" is not a word game, its a Hebrew word, the Jewish idea to blend two hebrew words together is a word game. Who is playing around here? Dave" T he false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beingsROb" so the idea of power transferred to the human is a false idea is it? Re 13:5 ...and power was given unto him This idea is rejected by you is it? Re 13:7 And it was given unto him This idea is rejected by you is it? Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: This idea is rejected by you is it? The false elohiym power gave power to the human elohiym power, is rejected by Dave? Is this your stand? Dave" There are not two gods in heaven locked in a cosmic struggle over God’s right to rule the universeRob" Would the paper I post here agree with you Dave? Dave" Here a human power what to be above the Most HIgh power. YEP – a HUMAN – and he is delusional – wrong – in error – full of himself – inflated ego Only to be proven wrongSo by the law by association, the dragon wants to be above the Most High too.IS AN ASSUMPTIONROB" I see. What is the purpose of writing poetry Dave? What is the purpose of writing poetry parallels? Who is the strong man in the house that one must bind before robbing the house? Who is the person who sows weeds among the wheat? Job 1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, Who is the power behind the Chaldeans? Ge 15:7 ¶ And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. This power existed in Abram's day Isa 13:19 ¶ And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It shall never be inhabited, God finished off Chaldean as a culture, yet the power behind still exist today? DO you agree with this idea? Dave" You anthropomorphize the Creator – God is not a man or biologyROb" I agree God is not a man or biology But why does Roman 1:20 exist, God functions as his Creation shows, gender male and gender female in love. If the Father is love, He must love like humans love? Is this idea false to you? ----------- Dave" Rom 4:17 ...who quickeneth the dead,Rob" Many verse speak of GOD who is living making alive those who sleep under His care. Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Just the first breath of life empower huamns wiith living, but he sinned, hence this living must end. The second breath of living comes from Jesus, so when you receive his spirit, the breath of salvation empower you to live forever under his breath of living. 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. COrrect, there are two breathing of medium here, the Father's that is a probation since we sin, and Jesus who is the Father's power again through sacrifice of His SOn, allows humans to be pardoned of sin, receive His breath of living for ever. Dave" You have no spirit – no spiritual – everything is just biology for youROb" Maybe you are right in this context. Dave" Explain the QUICKENING OF THE SPIRIT Make an honest attempt to answer – or do not returnROb" Are you getting tired of me Dave? Dave" Unless You are wlling to address D question about Ellen White's Covenant Theology You are ready to discuss Rabbi Cahn's video about wresteling with the Principalities / Archon Or you are willing to explain why you consider the sin of Eve as a sacrifice to the Lord (Rom 5:12) Or you are willing to answer why 1 Jhn 3:8 fits with Gen 1:2 + Gen 1:31
PS - thanks for proof reading my paper for me - good to know I can count on you as my friend and brother in ChristROb" what can I say ? SHow me a link to the video Rabbi Cahn's video about and I will watch it. Shalom for now must go to town and get some lawn mover belt?
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Post by Dave on Nov 29, 2023 22:11:39 GMT -5
Gnostic not the right hand created, but the left hand ie the HS created the archon beast herself. Yep – God never said – ‘let there be’ of the Right Hand The BEAST just appeared – from the Left Hand This is a violation of the Hebrew Bible - there is not any evidence of elohiym power with the HS creating. The Holy Spirit is not another god – the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God Everything came from the feminine WOMB of creation Gen 1:1 - John 1:3 – Col 1:16 – Rev 4:11===2=========== Listen to this video of Pastor Morris Beware of Chaldeans youtu.be/qn1iqZg8pzI - Post the link – I cannot find it Question for Dave" If the word "satanas" is a Chaldean word? where is the word found and used in Babylonian literature? I cannot find a single reference on the Internet.Have you looked in Chaldean sources?I cannot find a single reference on the Internet to Chaldean devilsYour admitted ignorance is profound=====3============== The yester ra / yester tov Question" the evil inclination is not a voice inside your head, influencing you to sin? Nope – it is are commandment to go forth be fruitful and multiply + subdue There is nothing EVIL or AVEN about it=====4========= Yes. The Hebrew שָׂטָן (śāṭān) is frequently transliterated into Greek as σαταν (satan) or σατανᾶς (satanas) — 36 times in the New Testament. The word διάβολος (diabolos) is also used (37 times). Diabolos is technically an adjective meaning “slanderous”, and it is occasionally used attributively, describing people (e.g. 1 Tim 3:11). However, like satan(as) — which in the Hebrew Bible generally refers to a/the a/Adversary — the more common NT usage is as a designation of a particular transcedent evil being. The preferred term in the Septuagint for translating the Hebrew śāṭān from into Greek is diabolos. I wrote and submitted an entire paper addressing the translation Addressing the Septuigent's use of dibalos
You proof read it for me – thank you What did it tell you?======5======= Maximus Confessor (580-662AD) believe Satan is God's enemy. Is Maxiumus considered before Roman Edit, Lets see the Roman edit began with Iranius in 190BC – the Catholic church became merged with the Constantine Empire in 365ASD Is Maxiumus considered before Roman Edit, - Does 600AD come before or after 190AD or 365AD?======6====== Gnostic theory is about a "god of evil" demiurge making the present world we humans have to live in, but I notice Dave does not entertain these Gnostic views. So you pick and choose among Gnostic writings.... I find it difficult to study your view, as you have nobody who agrees with you on the subject matter.Your admitted ignorance is profoundIf I look in Mormon text – will I find validation for Ellen White? If I look in JW test – will I finf validation of Ellen White If I keep looking there for Ellen White information – just how much will I find? Maybe I should look at the Hindu vedic to find her Is she in the writing of Sidhartha Maybe I'll look for her in the Koran What ever you do - do not look in academia - papers between pasters, academics, and translatorsI find it difficult to study your view, as you have nobody who agrees with you on the subject matter. What ever you do - do not look in academia - papers between pasters, academics, and translators
Your admitted ignorance is profound--------------------------------------------- Dave writes " If the Beast of Revelation is the same as the Hebrew Satan, the Bible is NOT consistent." Correct – Hebrew satan is a servant of the Lord The Beast of Revelation – deceives the whole world-------------------------------------------- Why does the Opposer have to be "bad" all the time as Kelly's assertion? You teach your satan changed his role with creation all by himself – through rebelling against God, hates God, and opposes God Hebrew satan is a servant of the Lord The Beast of Revelation – deceives the whole world
Balaam opposed GOD, - is Balaam your satan cherub? Or as man?
Cyrus is another person is Cyrus your satan cherub ? Or just a man?========================================= Dave"This is the last time I will answer this question The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – ROB" If GOD created satanas beast creature, as a false elohiym power, than it is not an elohiym power is it? If God created cows they cannot be cows?The BEAST was NOT created as an elohiym power – the Beast is just a beastThe serpent is NOT a god – or an elohiym power – it is just a stupid serpent Caesar is not a god – he is just a man An idol is not a god – it is just a rock But they all become elohiym powers when man worships them -------------------------------------- Dave" The false elohiym powers – are created beings / beast – animals – biological beings Made by God for God Rob" So these satanas (shedim) creatures are made by GOD for God's purpose? What about Lam 3:38? Lam 3:38 From the mouth of the Most High Go not forth the evils and the good. Does God do evil? What does God say that is evil?ROb" look up Jewish commentary on memra. HOW can a Father speak words?Ps 104:4 Who maketh his messengers a medium. Both of these words are titles of functions. What creature kind would a messenger of God be? ANswer cherub So – answer the question – what is a cherub – biology – space man – whatWhen are you going to answer the question Scripture and everyone else on the planet calls them spiritual beings You say this is impossible – so answer the question – what are theyRob" Why must you know what kind of body a cherub has? biological or something else? Scripture does not answer this question.Scripture calls them spirit – angelic spirits – evils spirits – unclean spiritsYou demand that spirit does not exist – and you play 20 word games to deny that spirit exist So explain what you mean – ANSWER THE QUESTION – or stop posting hereYour credibility is lacking – non-existent After 4 years – you have proven beyond a doubt that you have nothing of substance to offer – except to contradict whatever is presented for sport ------------------------------------------ Dave" Made by God for God – John 1:3, Col 1:16, Rev 4:11, Gen 1:1; 1:31, Gen 3:1 Rob" none of these verses speak of the archon created. John 1:3 - everything was created by God Col 1:16 – stop denying scripture Rev 4:11 - everything was created by God for God's pleasure Gen 3:1 - the serpent is more subtle that any beast created by God
Dave" Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed (the serpent’s seed – archon) and her seed. ROb" prove the serpent is an archon?Rob’ - archon is a title, not a creature. Dave’ - Yes – the archon is a title – King Solomon called them shedim - some people call them demonic, some call them the serpent race, Islam calls them the Jinn, and the first century NT Greek authors called the archon Rob’ - archon is a title, not a creature. Correct - and I have offered to call them by any name you prefer - demons - shades - boogy man - Principalities - devils - satanas - beast - serpents - Putin - Biden - Fred Flinstone - Woody Woodpecker - or Watchers ALL OF THESE NAMES ARE JUST TITLES for the entities that are just outside our fieled of vision that are anyhting but human and have been manipulating this world form the outside for eons Play whatever word game you choose - does not change the facts or the scripture----------------------------------------------- Dave" 1- precept upon precept, line upon line – validate your Ezk 28 Catholic satan god from scripture I have asked you to go through each line of scripture and demonstrate how your satan god rebels, ROb" I did this.... LIE – where is your pretend answer Dave" You have had 4 years to do so – there is 3 or 4 different threads on this forum allowing you do present your evidence =========== Dave" Are angels unique independent individuals – ROb" Yes they are Correct they are spiritual beingsDave" Are demons – – unique independent individuals? Rob" Hmm? a shedim - demon - devil is a title of a creature. The creatures can function as demons yes, but only if they choose to, some creatures choose to function as messengers of light, to deceive. Correct they are spiritual beingsDave" Is man a unique independent individual Rob" Yes indeed. Correct – man is a spiritual beingDave" You talk and talk and talk – ANSWER THE QUESTION ROb" I did, see above. Thank you for finally admitting that angels, archon, and man are all spiritual beings------------------------------------ Dae" What are they – that they can become mediums by their own power ROb" If a creature carries a message, it functions as a medium. How is that hard to understand. Your postman is a kind of medium, carrying messages. How is this an answer – are they mediums – or animals – or spiritual beings
Dave" Scripture calls them spirit – angelic spirits – evils spirits – unclean spirits Rob" the term spirit is a function, not the name of a creature which functions as a spirit. You do not investigage whom the creature could be? I am asking you – and you refuse to answer
Dave" You demand that spirit does not exist ROb" I have not said this, as a creature they do exist, they also function as a medium. LIE = spirit is impossible you say The closes you will come is to say that all spirit are just little fractions of God - (spirit sparks) There are NO independent beings - they are all God in different forms
So Ellen White would be a Scientologist today - why aren't you?------------------------------------- Job 1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, Who is the power behind the Chaldeans?I say it is the Beast of Revelation – you deny scriptureRev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: Ge 15:7 ¶ And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. This power existed in Abram's day Yep – have always said this------------------------------------------ Dave" Rom 4:17 ...who quickeneth the dead, Rob" Many verse speak of GOD who is living making alive those who sleep under His care. How does God make a live person alive – answer the question Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. There is no such thing as spirit according to you The second breath of living comes from Jesus, so when you receive his spirit, the breath of salvation empower you to live forever under his breath of living. How can you receive anything if you are dead? Dave" You have no spirit – no spiritual – everything is just biology for you ROb" Maybe you are right in this context. Dave" Explain the QUICKENING OF THE SPIRITMake an honest attempt to answer – or do not return ROb" Are you getting tired of me Dave? I am tied of your LIES and constant contradictions WHILE REFUSING TO ANSWER QUESTIONS4 years - if you were serious - you could have a BS-in Hebrew Translation instead - you have just become more ignorant - because now you just post stupid shit without substance Are = You are willing to address D question about Ellen White's Covenant Theology Are = You are ready to discuss Rabbi Cahn's video about wresteling with the Principalities / Archon Or you are willing to explain why you consider the sin of Eve as a sacrifice to the Lord (Rom 5:12) Or you are willing to answer why 1 Jhn 3:8 fits with Gen 1:2 + Gen 1:31 PS - thanks for proof reading my paper for me - good to know I can count on you as my friend and brother in Christ ROb" what can I say ?You can admit – you are NOT here as a friend – or a brother in Christ You can admit - that you are not here to participate in a discussion All you are doing is trying to tear down the Christian faith – as a good satan boySHow me a link to the video Rabbi Cahn's video about and I will watch it. I have on 3 separate occasions – I do not believe you – where is your credibility?
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Post by rob on Nov 30, 2023 5:15:32 GMT -5
Greetings Dave =======1====== Dave" The Holy Spirit is not another god – the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of GodROb" If you theories of faith is true on this, how come the Gnostic writings you follow, Pistis-Wisdom left her consort? What does a consort mean to me? Another partner who is equally divine. I suppose a consort means to you, the Same Father? How does this work? ========2======== Dave" Have you looked in Chaldean sources?Rob" I would love too, do you have any links of the Chaldeans to the word satanas? RobPP" I cannot find a single reference on the Internet to Chaldean devilsDave" Your admitted ignorance is profoundROb" Help me out than. I cannot find any and your material you post does not put satanas as a word into the Chaldean culture? Or does it?' =======3======== RobPP" Question" the evil inclination is not a voice inside your head, influencing you to sin?Dave" Nope – it is are commandment to go forth be fruitful and multiply + subdueROb" OK so explain the voice in your head than, that influences you to sin, WHOM is it? ====4======= Dave" You proof read it for me – thank you What did it tell you?Rob" I am happy to re-read it again, now I guess you have finished it, but you do not prove the satanas creature as a creature created in the Scriptures as the shedim/devil. I pose to you the word satanas is a Greek method of naming the unnamed opposer, which in 3 verses the Hebrew sort of names as "the-opposer". =====5==== Dave" Is Maxiumus considered before Roman Edit, - Does 600AD come before or after 190AD or 365AD?ROb" Are you saying the Roman Edit happened that soon? That within 150 years after Jesus died, the Roman Catholics completed destroyed the gospel as pure truth? That suggests to me that the Father is not very clever in preserving His Gospel message to the world? Are the archons really that good and destroying salvation from the Father? I thought you said the archons cannot oppose the Father? How come the archons have convinced man to create a spoiling of the gospel message so quickly? My second question to you is, why do you support trinity which is a Roman Edit concept is it not? ========6======== Wow Dave, is this extensive list of scholars people who support your view? Can I read them as people you would support? “Loan-words, Homophony and Transliterations in the Septuagint,” Bib 60 (1979) 216–236. Revised version: Emanuel Tov, The Greek and Hebrew Bible (1999), 165–82. Is this a book? Does it speak of satanas in the CHaldean culture? A Lexicon of Greek Loanwords in the Talmud and Midrash Ezra Brand Is this a book? Does it speak of satanas in the CHaldean culture? Review: The Satan: How God's Executioner Became the Enemy. Taylor Bradman DO you have a link for this study? Satan, Yhwh's Executioner Ryan Stokes DO you have a link for this study? Talk of the Devil: Unpacking the Language of New Testament Satanology (Journal for the Study of the New Testament, 2016) Thmas Farrar and Guy Williams Does this source talk about satanas? THE MISUNDERSTOOD SATANS OF THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE (a revised version of a paper submitted for a class taught by Mark S. Smith on Israel's Concept of God) Jerome Wilczynski, Psy.D., M.A.Th. Can you give me a brief overview of this paper? Dave" Your admitted ignorance is profoundROb" no need to be harsh, if you expect me to support your view, where is your scholars and your evidence? ================= Dave" But they all become elohiym powers when man worships themROb" I so totally disagree. Have you not considered Jeff Benner's definition of elohiym, a creature who knows both good and evil. The only way for a creature to know both good and evil is to sin. You do not consider this, you have the creature designed to be "yester ra" but not morally sinning. What a violence this is to the Bible ideas of sin, and free will. Now you invent your own definition of elohiym power. Try reading Gen 3:20 Dave" Does God do evil? What does God say that is evil?ROb" Try Jewish quotes Dave, what do they say? Does GOD do evil? www.myjewishlearning.com/article/a-traditional-jewish-approach-to-the-problem-of-evil/And while some texts — including some among the Dead Sea Scrolls — entertain the possibility that evil stems from some force other than God, this possibility is not a mainstream idea in Jewish thought.www.myjewishlearning.com/article/mystical-explanations-for-the-existence-of-evil/In an interpretation of the Garden of Eden, Adam’s eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is understood as an allegory of the first appearance of evil. Here Adam is understood as separating the Tree of Knowledge from its fruits, thereby activating the potential evil contained within the Tree by bringing about a division in the divine unity. Thus the channels between the upper and lower worlds were unsettled: the lowest sefirah Kingdom (Malkhut) was separated from the others, and the unity between Creator and creation was divided. Other sins in the history of ancient Israel were also interpreted in a similar light—in each case divine unity was disturbed, and it is only through the good deeds of biblical heroes that cosmic repair can take place.
Rob: "Care to explain this passage in simple words? In this context evil is understood as a waste product of all organic process—it is compared to bad blood, foul water, dross after gold has been refined and the dregs of wine. Yet despite this depiction, the Zohar asserts that there is holiness even in the Sitra Ahra regardless of whether it is conceived as a result of the emanation of the last sefirah or as a consequence of man’s sin. The domains of good and evil are intermingled, and it is man’s duty to separate them.ROb" This idea is weird, almost Gnostic? ============== Dave" Scripture and everyone else on the planet calls them spiritual beings You say this is impossible – so answer the question – what are theyROb" Where does the Bble call cherubims as spiritual being? They are just cherubs with sometimes a medium function to do as messengers. Dave" John 1:3 - everything was created by GodROb" Sin is not created by GOD, its a break in relationship due to free will deciding on it's own to do so. Dave" Rev 4:11 - everything was created by God for God's pleasureRob" What including sin? and including RA arising from SIN? Dave" Correct - and I have offered to call them by any name you prefer - demons - shades - boogy man - Principalities - devils - satanas - beast - serpents - Putin - Biden - Fred Flinstone - Woody Woodpecker - or Watchers ALL OF THESE NAMES ARE JUST TITLES for the entities that are just outside our fieled of vision that are anyhting but human and have been manipulating this world form the outside for eonsRob" Yes they are all titles So what are the shedim as creatures? To me, reading the torah they are cherubs who have sinned, and still sin. By the way any creature who sins opposes GOD. Dave" LIE – where is your pretend answerRob" You do not understand the serpent in the Eden tempted Eve to sin, by sinning itself. You do not agree to this idea. Does Paul agree with me? Yes 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. "subtility" and "corrupted" are sinning words. Not nice words at all. Ro 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Ro 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 1Co 3:18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. 2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; So this Greek word is not a noble word at all, but a sinning word. 1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. This word is also a bad word, a sinning word 1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Re 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, SO Paul agrees with me the serpent sinned in order to make Eve sin. Dave" Correct they are spiritual beingsRob" Where does Scripture speak of angels as spiritual beings? Dave" Correct – man is a spiritual beingRob" Where does Scripture speak of man as spiritual beings?Dave" Thank you for finally admitting that angels, archon, and man are all spiritual beingsRob" I never said that Dave, I am asking you where in Scripture is man and angel termed spiritual beings? ---------- Dave" LIE = spirit is impossible you say The closes you will come is to say that all spirit are just little fractions of God - (spirit sparks) There are NO independent beings - they are all God in different forms So Ellen White would be a Scientologist today - why aren't you?Rob" You write foolishly, I will not say anything more, because you make up stuff and mock. ------------------------ Job 1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, RobPP" Who is the power behind the Chaldeans?Dave" I say it is the Beast of Revelation – you deny scriptureRob" WHAT? So the good angel functioning as a prosecutor for human sin, does nothing in all this discussion between God and Job and the angel, so the satanas beasts just happen to discover JOb's hedge is down. And nobody told them it was down? If that is true why does God say Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; What powers does a prosecutor have? Job 1:16 ...The fire of God is fallen from heaven, Explain how creatures like a yester-ra archon called satanas has the power to bring down fire from heaven? You said only man only worships them turning them into false eloihym powers, so where does the fire from heaven come from? Dave" Yep – have always said thisROb" OK so the archon satanas beast creatures do really great job at spoiling creation and taking away God's gospel plans for humans. If the Roman edit did this in less than 150 years, there should be nobody following the gospel, and so why are there 3 goods one left in Sodom? Only One in Noah's day...so these satanas creature are really good at destroying God's gospel of salvation arn't they? Question: why would GOD talk to a prosecutor and not a chief satanas creature of his one and only human who is following GOD? I thought there is a sar on earth, who is the sar? It can't be your prosecutor, can't be you archons, as God never talks to them? So your theory is shot to pieces? Please explain. Dave" Explain the QUICKENING OF THE SPIRITROb" I have. It is the result of Jesus giving us his spirit for our spirit, our spirit is sinful , Jesus spirit is sinless. The word spirit refers to character, the faith factions we daily build ourselves as us from the Father's powers daily. Thus through Jesus, the chayah is living and hence we become living in Him. Dave" You can admitROb" There is no need to make emotions Dave. I can only uphold Scripture as Sola Scriptoria presents it. Surely truth can withstand scrutiny? DOn't we discuss the torah for all eternity, it's fun, so why should we get emotion when our theories of the torah are wrong? I am happy to stand corrected, you have taught me much about Creation. I am forever changed by your presentations. I used to think the earth was formless and void because God begins things in chaos and disorder. I no longer think this. Now I am against Christian views. I think when the sinning cherubs were banished to earth in it's lovely functional form, maybe without higher forms of life, the sinning angels slowly destroyed all the creation, reducing earth to a lifeless frozen water ball. I get this is going to happen again because of man sinning on earth and slowly man is destroying the earth. We will one day see nuclear bombs go off and destroy 1/3 of the earth, the fallout will end all living things...Our earth will become void and formless just before Jesus comes. So this is just one of many things I have gleamed from discussions with you. Dave" I have on 3 separate occasions – I do not believe you – where is your credibility?ROb" How hard is it to post the link? It's hard finding it doing a search on ProBoards ... Do you have to be difficult? Now try to answer the question posed here, and let's have a discussion. I look forward to Chaldean satanas being supported in their writings. This will go a long way to supporting your view. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 30, 2023 10:23:04 GMT -5
Dave" The Holy Spirit is not another god – the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God ROb" If you theories of faith is true on this, how come the Gnostic writings you follow, Pistis- What does a consort mean to me? Another partner who is equally divine. Correct – you have a pantheon of multiple gods and you will use any word game you can to deny there is One True GodYou present a FALSE TEACHING========2======== Dave" Have you looked in Chaldean sources? Rob" I would love too, do you have any links of the Chaldeans to the word satanas? Google them for yourself RobPP" I cannot find a single reference on the Internet to Chaldean devilsDave" Your admitted ignorance is profound ROb" Help me out than. I cannot find any and your material you post does not put satanas as a word into the Chaldean culture? Or does it?' Shayāṭīn (شَيَاطِين; devils or demons), singular: Shaiṭān (شَيْطَان) are evil spirits =======3======== RobPP" Question" the evil inclination is not a voice inside your head, influencing you to sin? Dave" Nope – it is are commandment to go forth be fruitful and multiply + subdue ROb" OK so explain the voice in your head than, that influences you to sin, WHOM is it?Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. Jas 1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, Jas 1:14 but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. (yester ra) leads to sin There is no need for your satan god of evil man is quit able to sin all by himself====4======= Dave" You proof read it for me – thank you What did it tell you? Rob" I am happy to re-read it again, Sure – everyone believes you as an honest and straightforward type of guy =====5==== Dave" Is Maxiumus considered before Roman Edit, - Does 600AD come before or after 190AD or 365AD? ROb" Are you saying the Roman Edit happened that soon? If you had paid any attention here at all – you should have learned that Iranius started the Roman Index in 190AD But – you do not want to learn ========6======== Wow Dave, is this extensive list of scholars people who support your view? Can I read them as people you would support? Go for it – google them and read – learn – study Satan, Yhwh's Executioner Ryan Stokes DO you have a link for this study? I posted it here in its entirety – you commented on itTHE MISUNDERSTOOD SATANS OF THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE (a revised version of a paper submitted for a class taught by Mark S. Smith on Israel's Concept of God) Jerome Wilczynski, Psy.D., M.A.Th. Can you give me a brief overview of this paper? I posted it here in part – because it is some 60 pages long – you commented on itDave" Your admitted ignorance is profound ROb" no need to be harsh, Stop whining and present an intelligent discussion================= www.myjewishlearning.com/article/a-traditional-jewish-approach-to-the-problem-of-evil/And while some texts — including some among the Dead Sea Scrolls — entertain the possibility that evil stems from some force other than God, this possibility is not a mainstream idea in Jewish thought. Correct – Judaism does not have a Catholic satan god Evil satan as a god was invented by the Catholic churchwww.myjewishlearning.com/article/mystical-explanations-for-the-existence-of-evil/Rob: "Care to explain this passage in simple words? In an interpretation of the Garden of Eden, Adam’s eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is understood as an allegory of the first appearance of evil. Correct – many Jews do not teach Adam and Eve as two individuals – but as an allegory for the first humans
Here Adam is understood as separating the Tree of Knowledge from its fruits, thereby activating the potential evil contained within the Tree by bringing about a division in the divine unity. Choice – Eve activated the choice to disobey / transgressThus the channels between the upper and lower worlds were unsettled: the lowest sefirah Kingdom (Malkhut) was separated from the others, and the unity between Creator and creation was divided. Other sins in the history of ancient Israel were also interpreted in a similar light—in each case divine unity was disturbed, and it is only through the good deeds of biblical heroes that cosmic repair can take place. Yep – Man caused the separation from God Yep – mitzvah vrs chatta – do your mitzvahs outweigh your chatta – 100% JewishIn this context evil is understood as a waste product of all organic process— Yep – a by-product of creation – inherent to physicality the Zohar asserts that there is holiness even in the Sitra Ahra regardless of whether it is conceived as a result of the emanation of the last sefirah or as a consequence of man’s sin. the last sefirah = man The separation from God – is caused by man’s sin There is no need for your Catholic god of evil
Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man
There is no need for your satan god of evil Satan made me do it - it is satan's fault is an excuse - for your own sinful behaviour It is a satanic false teaching - your sin is your fault - no one else's - only you are responsible and you will stand judgent alone The domains of good and evil are intermingled, and it is man’s duty to separate them. ROb" This idea is weird, almost Gnostic? NOPE - Gnostic Christianity is Jewish - Gen 3:14-24============== Dave" Scripture and everyone else on the planet calls them spiritual beings You say this is impossible – so answer the question – what are they They are just cherubs with sometimes a medium function to do as messengers. And your answer is what exactly? Rob" You do not understand the serpent in the Eden tempted Eve to sin, by sinning itself. You do not agree to this idea. Does Paul agree with me? Yes 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. "subtility" and "corrupted" are sinning words. Not nice words at all. Gen 3:13 And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, Gen 3:13 The woman said, “The serpent deceived me and I ate.” Rev 12:9 the great dragon - the ancient serpent, - called the devil and satanas, who deceives the whole world.
Dave" Correct they are spiritual beings Rob" Where does Scripture speak of angels as spiritual beings?Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, Heb 1:14 are they not all spirits of service G4151 - πνεῦμα - pneuma From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, Dave" Correct – man is a spiritual being Rob" Where does Scripture speak of man as spiritual beings? Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. ------------------------ Job 1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, RobPP" Who is the power behind the Chaldeans? Dave" I say it is the Beast of Revelation – you deny scripture Rob" WHAT? So the good angel functioning as a prosecutor for human sin, does nothing in all this discussion between God and Job and the angel, so the satanas beasts just happen to discover JOb's hedge is down. And nobody told them it was down? Absolutely correct – the WORLD / archon is always waiting for an opportunity to deceive you – by fueling our own (yester ra) If that is true why does God say Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; What powers does a prosecutor have? Yep – accuse away Hebrew satan find Job in error if you can--------------------------------------------- Job 1:16 ...The fire of God is fallen from heaven, Explain how creatures like a yester-ra archon called satanas has the power to bring down fire from heaven? You said only man only worships them turning them into false eloihym powers, so where does the fire from heaven come from?Are admitting that you consider magic tricks as miracles of a god?Cheetahs can run 60mph – can you – are cheetahs gods Many insects can see into the infrared – are they gods Dogs can smell you from a mile away – are they gods King Solomon tells us that the shedim can manipulate nature As in – they can make it rain – they can make storms – and always fertility The Assyrians called them – STORM GODS The Hittites called them - STORM GODS Fertility is such an easy thing to manipulate All the archon have to do is lead man to contaminated water – Medical Bleedings – hurt the fertility rate Diet affects the fertility rate Microbes – insects – bacteria (google) Was the church against bathing? The Church's distaste for bathing can similarly be seen in other works throughout the Ante-Nicene period, including the Apostolic Constitutions. Why was bathing considered unhealthy? Before the mid-nineteenth century, Americans seldom bathed for personal cleanliness. Many considered bathing to be unhealthy, believing it removed a “protective” layer of oil and dirt and exposed the body to unclean water and dangerous “miasmas,” or diseased air. It was the “church” that kept man in filth Explain how creatures like a yester-ra archon called satanas has the power to bring down fire from heaven? You said only man only worships them turning them into false eloihym powers, so where does the fire from heaven come from?Man – can affect the weather – seeding clouds does make rain Man – can affect fertility – we have an entire industry for it According to ancient man – modern man can do magic Is man a god? Before Abram – Sumar was filled with space alien gods from the planet Nebiru – they did genetic manipulations / cloning / hybrids They were highly intelligent – they are not god Before Abram – Egypt was filled with space alien gods from the star Sirus Still today – we are unable to reproduce some of their technological They were highly intelligent – they are not god Before Abram – in India – Nagas gods – small little reptilian creature Rama – giant reptilian gods Flying around in veminas – into space and back Dropping atomic bombs on their enemies They were highly intelligent – they are not god Explain how creatures like a yester-ra archon called satanas has the power to bring down fire from heaven? You said only man only worships them turning them into false eloihym powers, so where does the fire from heaven come from?Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made Enoch – when the archon came upon the women – they taught man medicine – potions – incantations – the art of war They were highly intelligent – they are not god UFOs today are very real – yet beyond our technological explanation Skin Walker Ranch – something is real there – yet beyond our technological explanation --------------------------------------------------- ROb" OK so the archon satanas beast creatures do really great job at spoiling creation and taking away God's gospel plans for humans. If the Roman edit did this in less than 150 years, there should be nobody following the gospel, ABSOLUTELY MY POINTJesus came and taught Messianic Judaism – which teaches spirituality – being led by the spirit Jesus taught and promised the Baptism of the Holy Spirit Organizing the “religion” into one Roman-centric control – had to stamp out this teaching – call it Gnostic – no such thing as Messianic Judaism because those damn Jews killed Jesus Christ190AD the persecution of other Christian groups began – by first calling them Gnostic 365AD the Roman Church became an instrument for Constantine’s Holy Roman Empire By 450AD Christian hords were violently attacking pagan temples – killing heretics By 1050AD Christians were killing all the Jews and Muslims in the Holy Lands – Crusades By 1150AD the Catholic Church finally killed the last Gnostic Christian groups in France - Cathars By 1500AD Christian were killing other Christians – 30 years war between Catholic and Protestants By 1650AD the last satanic witches were burnt at the stake By 1853AD the last death by Roman Inquisition By 1950 – Darwinism has the world convinced The legacy of Roman Christendom = IF THERE IS A GOD – He is weak or does not care – or is not there so these satanas creature are really good at destroying God's gospel of salvation arn't they?All through the 5000 years there has only been two types of Judaism Hasidic – faith based – spiritual Talmudic – works based – Law based The legacy of Roman Christendom = >2000 registered denominations in America alone Ellen White – Joseph Smith – Charles Russell could not be more different - yet all Christian? (google) Who was the first to say divide and conquer? Divide and rule - The maxim divide et impera has been attributed to Philip II of Macedon. (father of Alexander the Great) It was utilised by the Roman ruler Julius Caesar and the French emperor Napoleon (together with the maxim divide ut regnes). Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: so these satanas creature are really good at destroying God's gospel of salvation arn't they?YES – the REALITY OF THE ARCHON is 100% real and in your face 24/7Wake up and recognize what is in your sight and so why are there 3 goods one left in Sodom? Only One in Noah's day...Yep – even through all the evil brought to the world through the Catholic Church A few – remain as God’s remnant Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. In a group of Catholics – some will be taken and some will be left In a group of Jews – some will be taken and some will be left In a group of Methodist – some will be taken and some will be left In a group of Coptics – some will be taken and some will be left In a group of Gnostic Christians – some will be taken and some will be left Why? Because there are three types of Christians 1- the lost 2- the believer 3- and the spiritual Some get it – some understand Some don’t get it From the Catholic Church – St Francis of Assi – amazing Christian witness Very Charismatic Listen to this video of Pastor Morris Beware of Chaldeans - youtu.be/qn1iqZg8pzIRobert Morris is one of the biggest Charismatic Christian leaders in America – his personal congregation numbers in the 10,000sYou deny everything he stands for – he teaches the Baptism of the Holy Spirit You call his entire teach satanic – now you post him to support your own views YOU ARE A JOKE – GET SERIOUS or be gone-------------------------------- Dave" Explain the QUICKENING OF THE SPIRIT ROb" I have. It is the result of Jesus giving us his spirit for our spirit, our spirit is Define spirit – you answer means nothing unless you define the word spirit You deny man has a spirit – there no such thing you argue – now you talk about the spirit What are you talking about? YOU ARE A JOKE – GET SERIOUS or be gone
----------------------- Dave" I have on 3 separate occasions – I do not believe you – where is your credibility? ROb" How hard is it to post the link? It's hard finding it doing a search on ProBoards ... Do you have to be difficult? How hard is it to check your messages?You have so many excuses to justify your own proclaimed ignoranceIs that the legacy of Ellen White and satan worship? Is that the legacy of called satan a god? I cannot find a single reference on the Internet to Chaldean devils Have you looked in Chaldean sources?I wrote and submitted an entire paper addressing the translation Addressing the Septuagint’s use of dibalos You proof read it for me – thank you What did it tell you? I find it difficult to study your view, as you have nobody who agrees with you on the subject matter.I am an academic – just looking at the material without the bias of any religious dogmaMy goal is not to prove to anyone anything – my only goal is to witness to the information so whatever you do - do not look in academia – papers between pastors, academics, and translatorsWhere are the scholars who agree with you? Show me one of their studies. get your scholarly articles posted with links I can access freely. (video) Elaine Pagels - What do "secret gospels" suggest about Jesus and his teaching?Yes - Paul was very much a Gnostic An academic presentation of the NT Gnosticism - accurate - honest ---------------------- 16:50 – IMPORTANT INFORMATION Jesus taught like a Rabbi teaches – there is the public message and the private messageRabbis taught generalities to the public – but in private spoke more specifically Just as church has a sermon for the congregation – and a Bible study group for the serious Jesus taught the public parables – but in private with His Disciple He spoke privately 18:00 – in Judaism – you have the public teaching (Torah) and the private teaching (Kabbalah) Catholics have the Catechism for the public – only the priest have access to the Archives A small town priest – is not even aware of the information used by Vatican Exorcist Public teaching –vrs- private teaching 18:45 – IMPORTANT INFORMATIONIrenaeus – the reason for the Roman Edit There can be no secret teaching – no private teaching – only the one version – the public version Thus the invention of Gnostics have ‘Secret Knowledge’ – that must be kept from the public 19:30 - Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Jesus taught the public parables – but in private with His Disciples He spoke of the mysteries20:00 – INTERESTING Preachers say Jesus taught in parables to make things simple Jesus says He speaks in parables to keep things hidden Today – we would say – the public can’t handle the truth1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Some get it – some understand Some don’t get it
Not only do you not get it – you actively deny it
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