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Post by Dave on Nov 15, 2023 21:57:13 GMT -5
YOu are asking me if the Father can create a "spirit-spark" that is essentially you? The answer is NO, the Scriptures do not speak of this idea at all. So you deny God can create spirit beings – no angels – therefore no cherubs – therefore no Ezk 28 satan for you No Beast of Revelation or the principalities that Paul says are our real struggle Why do you preach a contradiction?Prove to me a "medium" is a body that talks, walk and moves all by itself? What do angels do – if they do not exist – cannot speak – or move by themselves?Angels function as mediums.
Angels do not exist you claim – how can God create two mediums you asked me OK - I'll play your game - you say angels function as mediumWho is the angel? It cannot be a spirit being according to you? Are angels just more biology living on earth - like cows or pigs? Do you teach your god is just a biological creature There is no biology in heaven - 1Cor 15:50 - or do you deny this scripture as well?Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, What is the spirit of God? You deny that spirit even exist – impossible you sayDave" You teach all angels are just the HS Rob" I did not say that. Correct – You said your satan god can use the HS for evil Now you say7 it is impossible for angels to exist – no spiritual beings in Ellen White’s false teaching - the Holy Spirit does not even exist in your teachingDave " You deny all spiritual creatures Rob" Prove to me "spirits" exist as "spark-spirit entities" created by the Father? Correct – now you deny that angels exist and God has no spiritDave" Your denial of scripture just creates a giant contradiction for you Prove to me the Father is a "spirit"? Define your term "spirit" ? Ethereal beingRob" Cherubs are made as mediums. You just said God cannot create two mediums – now you say God created millionsDave" Only one creation – God did not make a mistake then have to correct it Rob" you don't understand what sinning does to creation, do you? Yep – man is sentenced to muth muth and the CONTEST of Gen 3:14-24 began Established by God - rules established by God - playing field created by God Contestants created by God - man vs archon - Gen 3:15 + Eph 6:12Dave" Thank you for being HONEST You have just contradicted Ellen White’s entire premise ROB" I have ? how? There is no such thing as a god that created himself by rebelling against God- hates God – or opposes God right to rule the universeDave" Then why does she contradict the Word of God and why do you reject Judeo-Christianity ROb" What contradictions? You have rejected, and mocked, every Christian teaching here You have called Jesus a lier and the NT as errorDave" The Great Controversy and God's Love for Humanity Adventist.org - www.adventist.org › the-great-controversy All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. There is NO controversy about God’s character Adonai is a great God and a great King above all gods. ROB" SO you focus is on the word meaning of "above". Are you saying other elohiym powers exist, hence are lower than the true elohiym power in heaven? And that the true elohiym power is above these lower powers? I can agree to this idea. DUH - Correct – there is only ONE TRUE GOD – no one can oppose Him All false gods are created beings on/in earth Completely opposite to Ellen White’s satananic teachingDave" I explained it to you – now do you understand? ROb" No, you explained what exactly? BINGO – a perfect comment on your ability to participateDave" Psa 19:2 The heavens show the handiwork of God you claim the only thing science can uncover is the handiwork of satan and sin Which contradiction do you believe ROB" Why is spoiling creation, a contradiction? Everyone else says – Rom 1:19-20 point to God’s perfect creation – God’s Glory You claim that it points to satan and sin effects upon creation – satan’s gloryDave" Answer the question – Did God create this world as is to be rediscovered – or is all of God’s original creation corrupted by your satan and sin? ROb" Spoilers spoil creation, but some / many principles of perfection remain, like colours in flowers, and music in birds. You Answered the question - Thank you Rom 1:19-20 points to the handiwork of your satan and sin - not God perfect creationYou praise the wrong god!Dave" The spirit body = ethereal not corporeal ROb" ANswer my question- Does the spirit spark even require a body ? Repeat - Dave" The spirit body = ethereal not corporealThe Holy <hagios> Ghost <pneuma> shall come <eperchomai> upon <epi> thee <se>, and <kai> the power <dunamis> of the Highest <hupsistos> shall overshadow <episkiazo> thee <soi>: Your a Greek scholar, the word "kai" means "via" does it? I thought it means "and" G2532 – καί – kai Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force;It serves as a break - a pause It is often an untranslated period - comma - and sometimes an exclamation pointSometimes it means + this + that + another thing Sometimes it means this as opposed to that It can be the second half of a conditional statement - if then - It can be translated as - and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet. Your a Greek scholar, the word "kai" means "via" does it? I thought it means "and"You teach God left His throne unattended - not a Judeo-Christian teachingLuk 1:35 And the messenger answering said to her, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, so the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, for the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, therefore the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, Its Greek remember - perfectly correct translation would be
The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, indeed The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, when The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, that The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, then The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee Dave" You left this forum once before - BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER SIMPLE QUESTIONS ROb" I never left, I was deleted by you remember? BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER SIMPLE QUESTIONSSo many unanswered questions - begin withHow do you define the Nicean Creed? 3 post in a row you have failed to answer the question!
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Post by rob on Nov 16, 2023 5:43:11 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" OK - I'll play your game - you say angels function as medium Who is the angel? It cannot be a spirit being according to you? Are angels just more biology living on earth - like cows or pigs? Do you teach your god is just a biological creatureROB" Torah speaks of cherubims eating manna in heaven. Ps 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. 25 Man did eat angels' food: And God created cherubs, so that makes the cherub a creature kind of matter, however not necessarily the same creation as humans are. Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, Also with cherub descriptions, and visits to earth, they can eat food, look like humans, and walk and talk like humans do, so their shape is similar to human shape. And your reference to elohiym powers Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. So nobody knows the shape of the divine elohiym powers, they are beyond matter, time and space. Dave quotes 1 Cor 15:50 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Rob" The verse is speaking of corrupted flesh and blood, we are changed from.... it doesn't say what we are changed into? In order to understand what we are changed into, let's look at the resurrected Jesus: Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. It is clear Jesus was raised in a biological body, that is not corrupt in any way, except for battle scars from atoning for human sins. Joh 20:26 ¶ And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you Obviously Jesus biological body can walk right through walls, so is not the same as our old corrupted body of flesh. Re 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Why mention the tree of life bearing fruit each month, if the redeemed do not eat from the tree? Obviously the redeemed do eat from the tree of life, and this is seen as a restoration of what mankind had before SIN entered into Eden. Re 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Since earth had darkness first, a symbol of sin, now in the second creation, there is no darkness, hence no sin. We redeemed do not sleep, nor is there a setting of the sun. So somethings in the next creation are not as in the first creation over earth. Dave: " Now you say7 it is impossible for angels to exist – no spiritual beings in Ellen White’s false teaching - the Holy Spirit does not even exist in your teachingROB" O Boy can't you understand English? Cherubs exist. A cherub can also function as malak and as a ruwach. In English this means Angels do exist. An angel can also function as a messenger and as a medium. According to Jews angels can also function as guardians. Some angels record events on humans, such as book of remembrance. Some angels take visits to earth, dressed up as humans in need. The Shadday exists. The Shadday functions as grand medium over earth, to allow function flows of the Father to all creatures, whether they sin or not sin. Such a Being is also known in laymen terms as the HS. In English, the (Shadday) does exist, even though the function of the medium, is not a being, the administration of the medium, ie the Shadday is. To keep things simple, this process is termed the HS. So the "HS" does exist. DO you understand now? ROBPP" Define your term "spirit" ?Dave" Ethereal beingROB" OK, I can understand this, in laymen terms you like to call this "ethereal being" a spirit. Do you have a Hebrew word for this "ethereal being" ? I do not know of any? Dave" You just said God cannot create two mediums – now you say God created millionsROB" Are you OK? Can you read English? In your view the Father is all alone, can thus cannot create a medium. Why? Because a grand medium required to allow the Father's flow over a sinning domain, requires a passive and active administrated medium. Passive, so the divine member does not take part in the function of the power flow, simply allowing whatever flow and control of the flow, without controlling. For example, a human lives under the medium, can use the Father's powers to murder a human at any time. The HS allows this power flow, and the wicked human uses the medium to make such wicked acts, using free will. This does not make the HS evil, or the Father responsible for the evil, or even an accessory for supplying the power of the act, the human is entirely responsible for his own actions, even though the power of those actions comes from God. The administrator of the medium, the HS does not take an active part in this flow, except to conduit the flow from the Father into the human. Now for the active function. Because the human can be a saint or an opposer, the HS administrates the medium actively, changing its properties to suit the humans free will choice needs. Because humans sin thousands of times a day, the medium requires an active presence to adjust medium properties and functions to the free will can do whatever it wishes within the limits and boundaries imposed by the Father. Here I am taking of the grand medium, created to function over the domain of GOD, only once, during the SIN problem. The angels that function as mediums, are meant to mean, the angels carry messages from the Father to humans, across space and time, hence the definition of a medium. But this is not a grand medium, and creatures cannot be directly involved with the Father's flow of power.. The Shadday is different, as a member of the elohiym power. An angel could never function as a medium for the breath of life for instance, not capable of omnipresence, for one. Only divinity could function as a grand medium over God's domain, especially since the SIN problem. This requirement happens only once, since sin will never arise a second time. RobPP" Rob" you don't understand what sinning does to creation, do you?Dave" Yep – man is sentenced to muth muth ROB, Again you do not read English very well do you? I asked what sinning does to creation....? Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Our biological bodies are corrupted by sin, we are prisoners in our bodies, because of sin. Re 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Re 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. When GOD removes his presence from earth, the four winds; the Opposer is given unlimited powers for a season, and the earth is totally destroyed, because that is what sin does, it spoils and destroys. So the earth was void and formless because sinning angels destroyed the earth, and all living things on it, to spite God. Sinning agents also hate light, they prefer darkness. Dave" There is no such thing as a god that created himself by rebelling against God- hates God – or opposes God right to rule the universeROb" What about a creature pretending to be god, that rebels and hates GOD and thus opposes GOD and all that GOD stands for, ie selfless love? Dave" You have rejected, and mocked, every Christian teaching hereRob" I have? Dave" DUH - Correct – there is only ONE TRUE GOD – no one can oppose Him All false gods are created beings on/in earth Completely opposite to Ellen White’s satananic teachingRob" Hang on a minute Dave, you agree that false elohiym powers exist on earth. But Rev 12:8 says the war was once in heaven, but GOD kicked the rebels out unto the earth. The war started in heaven and now the war continues on earth. Tabor says the Devil Satan is a prince of the earth. Dave" All false gods are created beings on earthRob" What? created as false gods on earth? NO The Father never created a false elohiym power on earth, or for earth. A false elohiym power becomes one by simply sinning against GOD, hence opposes GOD. You are way off understanding where the false elohiym powers come from. They are creatures that once were sinless but now sin, and thus they sin against GOD, thus oppose GOD. Only your Gnostic teachings teach GOD created false elohiym gods for earth, in order to test human free will, is a bogus idea. Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities "arche" and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, You like to quote this verse, and it seems to add weight to your view, but only if the translate arche, as archons? The word "Arche" means "beginnings" in most contexts. In a fewer contexts the word refers to the beginnings a creature once enjoyed by left, by sinning against GOD. Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, The angels left their beginnings with GOD and sinned. Jude 1:8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Judes writes about these angels as dreamers, speaking of evil dignities. Dave" You Answered the question - Thank youROb" your welcome Dave" Repeat - Dave" The spirit body = ethereal not corporealROB" OK, so the ethereal spirit has no body, no shape, so can this ethereal spirit think and talk and move ? If so how? Dave explains the Greek word "kai" Dave" The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, when The Holy Spirit shall come upon theeROb" I like this translation So the medium carries the Father's flow unto Mary's egg, and the Shadday also present as the HS overshadows the Father's flow, as the womb of divinity, and the divine Son of Man, is clad in humanity. Notice we still have two heavenly parents. But one parent does not leave the heavenly throne. This verse falsifies your Father being all alone - solitary. Elohiym is a unit. Dave" BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER SIMPLE QUESTIONS
So many unanswered questions - begin with How do you define the Nicean Creed? 3 post in a row you have failed to answer the question!Rob" that is not fair, you have not answered my simple questions.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_CreedI am reading wikipedia on your question. My question to you, where does the Nicean Creed state the Father exists as three expressions, the right hand as Christ and the left hand as the Spirit? Nicene Christianity regards Jesus as divine and " begotten of the Father".[6] “And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. No mention of Christ as an expression of the Father. "being of one substance with the Father" ie divine "begotten" ie ?? they might see the Father calling forth the Son in some eternal past, where as I see the SON and the Father coming into existence at once. ?? My question to you is prove Nicean Creed speaks of Christ as an expression of the Father. You have a different trinity creed to mainstream Christianity, I think? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 16, 2023 7:36:44 GMT -5
And God created cherubs, so that makes the cherub a creature kind of matter, however not necessarily the same creation as humans are.
So – you teach that angels are just biology Why are they invisible? How do they fly through the different dimensions? How can they speak? How can they move through the air? Prove to me that 3D biology can do this
1Co 15:50 Rob" The verse is speaking of corrupted flesh and blood, we are changed from Correct Robert – we are changed – to be like ethereal beings
In order to understand what we are changed into, let's look at the resurrected Jesus: 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is. The disciple who were there cannot describe it – other than Christ could come and go – ascend or descend – walk through walls or appear out of thin air Jesus is NOT 3D biology like us – your teaching is rejected
Cherubs exist. A cherub can also function as malak and as a ruwach. First you teach that your medium was the HS Now you say a cherub is the HS
Angels do exist. An angel can also function as a messenger and as a medium. Now angels are the Holy Spirit – is this any angel – all angels – or just one angel?
The Shadday exists. The Shadday functions as grand medium over earth, to allow function flows of the Father to all creatures, whether they sin or not sin. Such a Being is also known in laymen terms as the HS. You claim this to be a second god Luke 1:35 – you deny that the Power of the Lord flows through the HS – it takes 2 gods - both the HS mother god and the Father God - to father the child with Mary Oh – yes – Mary is not the mother – just a hired serrogate
ROBPP" Define your term "spirit" ? Dave" Ethereal being ROB" OK, I can understand this No you do not – you demand that all creatures are corporeal
Dave" You just said God cannot create two mediums – now you say God created millions ROB" Are you OK? Can you read English? You made the claim - it is your English
In your view the Father is all alone, can thus cannot create a medium. Nope – Trinity – the HS was never created – the HS = the Spirit of God The Shadday is different, as a member of the elohiym power. Correct – you teach this as a second god in your pantheon
An angel could never function as a medium They why do you keep saying they do?
Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit You deny spirit exist - you cannot possibly understand this verse using your current teaching
Dave" There is no such thing as a god that created himself by rebelling against God- hates God – or opposes God right to rule the universe ROb" What about a creature pretending to be god
Caesar was just a man – just a pretender – false – imaginary – he only got his power from the people Baal is just a creature – just a pretender – false – imaginary – he only gets his power from the people Beelzebub is just a creature – just a pretender – false – imaginary – he only gets his power from the people Yes - the shedim / archon / Jinn can manipulate nature to some degree Just makes them more powerful (intelligent) than man - does not make them a god
To an ant - or cockroach - man can manipulate nature to some degree Just makes us more powerful (intelligent) than them - does not make us a god
None of these gods are opposing God's right to rule the universe All of them are just a false distraction for man
Dave" You have rejected, and mocked, every Christian teaching here Rob" I have? Absolutley – satan boy You have spent your life in a satanic cult and deliberately taught anti-Christain crap to others You deny Jesus Christ You elevate your satan to a position of godhood Give satan to power to change all of God's tov creation You even argue that your satan killed God on the cross You argue a ploythiestic pantheon of multiple gods and you must diminish the Creator to do it
You argue that God cannot create spirit then turn around post verse about the spirit You deliberately try to discredit anything Christian - to glorify the power of your satan god You even admit Rom 1:19-20 points the the glory of your satan and sin
Your teaching that God is biology is REJECTED Your teaching that angels are biology is REJECTED Your teaching that the Holy Spirit is a seperate bioogical god is REJECTED Your teaching that man will be resurrected as just eternal biology is REJECTED Your rejection of scripture is obvious
Col 1:16 - the archon were made by God for God - you reject scripture - dissagree with scripture Eph 6:12 - the archon areour real struggle - you reject scripture - dissagree with scripture Gn 1:31 - God looked upon His creation and called it tov - you reject scripture - dissagree with scripture - you say this is ra and a result of sin Rom 5:13 - sin before the Law was NOT counted as sin - you reject scripture - dissagree with scripture - you try to say the Law always existed 2Pet 3:19 says Jesus died upon the Cross - but Christ lived on as spieirt to preach to other spirits lost in Hades - you reject scripture - dissagree with scripture - you claim this is beyound God's ability Jesus Christ taught and promised the Baptism of the Hoy Spirit - you call it satanic Heb 4 is the promise of ongoing Day 7 that is open to all as a Day of Rest - you reject scripture - dissagree with scripture - you say Day 7 was only 24 hrs long and closed 5784 years ago Dave" You have rejected, and mocked, every Christian teaching here
Your denial of anything spiritual - only prevents you from experiencing the spiritual So you MOCK - what you cannot know - because you refuse to believe
Which is your entire message here anything Jewish or Christian always ends here with you claiming disbelief
Dave" DUH - Correct – there is only ONE TRUE GOD – no one can oppose Him All false gods are created beings on/in earth Completely opposite to Ellen White’s satananic teaching Rob" Hang on a minute Dave, you agree that false elohiym powers exist on earth. Yes – and this is TOTALLY OPPOSITE to everything you have taught us about Ellen White Yes – and this is opposite to the ADVENT.ORG web-site And explains why precept upon precept, line upon line - you cannot offer one supporting verse to support your satan god Ezk 28 teaching - because it is all a Roman invention and NOT the Judeo-Christianity as Jesus, His Disciples, or His followers taught.
Ellen White teaches pagan Zoroasterianism - two gods locked in an cosmic comflict - a god of evil opposing a god of good
But Rev 12:8 says the war was once in heaven, but GOD kicked the rebels out unto the earth. The war started in heaven and now the war continues on earth. Yep – ejected at Gen 1:2 - immediately upon creation of the Beast - DUH You claim is was a sin - God called it a tov and the NT says the Beast was created by Him for Him
Only your Gnostic teachings teach GOD created false elohiym gods for earth, Scripture says they were created by God for God You Reject NT scripture You have to reject your own KJV NT solo scripturom to keep Ellen White correct
You like to quote this verse, and it seems to add weight to your view, but only if the translate arche, as archons? The word "Arche" means "beginnings" Just your word game I offered to call them any name you chose if it would help your confusion In 1611 your KJ translators called them principalities Just your word game David Ike calls them - invisible entities just our of our filed of vision - some people call them demonic, some peole call them the serpent race, Islam calls them the Jinn Just your word game The 1st century Greek authors of the NT called them archon - Paul does, Luke does - and outside of the NT James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas all call them archon Call them by any name you want - the REALITY OF THE ARCHON remains the same It is just a game for you to play
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, The angels left their beginnings with GOD and sinned. This is referring to Gen 6 – or all your satanic gods are locked away from man
Dave" Repeat - Dave" The spirit body = ethereal not corporeal ROB" OK, so the ethereal spirit has no body, I never said this – all I said was - The spirit body = ethereal not corporeal
Dave" BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER SIMPLE QUESTIONS How do you define the Nicean Creed? 3 post in a row you have failed to answer the question! Rob" you have not answered my simple questions.... That is not an answer - it is a whine I have answered every question you have ever asked – can you say the same
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed I am reading wikipedia on your question. – because you have no understanding of your own The question = How do you define the Nicean Creed? My question to you, where does the Nicean Creed state the Father exists as three expressions, the right hand as Christ and the left hand as the Spirit? So you refuse to answer the question yet again
"being of one substance with the Father" ie divine – what is this substance Robert – you demand it is just 3D biology
"begotten" ie ?? they might see the Father calling forth the Son in some eternal past, where as I see the SON and the Father coming into existence at once. ??
If you demand that Christ is just biology – then how does biology exist before God created biology? Finish your answer - provide some type of answer - copy and post someone else's views and call them your own - so you can deny your own views later - when caught in another Ellen White contradiction
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Post by rob on Nov 16, 2023 16:05:37 GMT -5
Greetings Dave You are becoming off topic, discussing material that is not about elohiym and you have not answered my questions about elohiym. Dave" So – you teach that angels are just biology Why are they invisible? How do they fly through the different dimensions? How can they speak? How can they move through the air? Prove to me that 3D biology can do thisRob" Why are they invisible? Angels come to us as mediums, and mediums can be invisible or visible depending upon how the medium wishes to appear. Ps 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits (medium) "ruwach" Rob" How do they fly through the different dimensions? Angels have things we see as wings, but the wings are actually the function of the Grand Medium, the Shadday, who functions as a Grand Medium, carrying the angels whereever they want to go. You will remember biological matter is partnered to GOD, hence GOD allows us to move and travel, even through walls and through space, and even without using entropy or friction. Ps 104:3 ...who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Ps 104:4 ....his ministers a flaming fire: These are qualties of GOD, but also available to any sinless creature who loves GOD completely. Eze 1:12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit "grand medium" was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. The grand medium moves the angels about, wherever they wish to go. Now we see things darkly, and these verses describe things difficult to fathom, just my two pennies. Dave" Prove to me that 3D biology can do thisRob" Biology does NOT do these things, biology is just matter following instructions GOD placed there on the DNA. You forget a sinless creature is empowered in partnership to GOD, and hence we have powers beyond mere biology. Such powers is available to us simply through faith, in fact faith is how the universes works. The words of GOD have power. The relationship to GOD comes with functions beyond biology. Some say sinless creatures are naked. No so. Ps 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: GOD covers us with His light as a garment. Again you forget creatures are partnered to GOD, as living creatures because only GOD is living. Dave" Correct Robert – we are changed – to be like ethereal beingsRob" Dave we humans are "already ethereal beings", look at what I wrote regarding angels. Biology wrapped with additional functions because GOD is partnered to the angel as living power. That make the angels body also an ethereal body, even though it is biological, it is also with functions that come from GOD. Look at the example of the raised Jesus. It was a biological body with GOD empowering all over it. This is the body Adam once had before he lost all this through sinning. Dave" The disciple who were there cannot describe it – other than Christ could come and go – ascend or descend – walk through walls or appear out of thin air Jesus is NOT 3D biology like us – your teaching is rejectedROB" so because humans cannot describe what they see clearly you reject Scripture? Fine, reject at your own peril. Php 2:12 ...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Dave" Now angels are the Holy Spirit – is this any angel – all angels – or just one angel? You claim this to be a second god Luke 1:35 – you deny that the Power of the Lord flows through the HS – it takes 2 gods - both the HS mother god and the Father God - to father the child with Mary Oh – yes – Mary is not the mother – just a hired serrogateROB" Mock. I suggest we get back on this theme, is elohiym a unit or not? That will change your view completely. Dave" No you do not – you demand that all creatures are corporealROb" read my post here. Ethereal is just GODly powers flowing out from biology when GOD wishes to. Dave" They why do you keep saying they do?ROb" can't you read my sentences, and put logic together? I said for one thing, angels do not have omnipresence.... SO no angel could function as a grand medium. Dave" Baal is just a creature – just a pretender – false – imaginary – he only gets his power from the peopleRob" really imaginary elohiym power invented by people? Come on Dave, start reading Scripture, or listen to Tabor Why does Tabor than describe Satan as the prince of earth? Is this an imaginary elohiym power invented by Tabor, a human? Dave" None of these gods are opposing God's right to rule the universeRob" Where does an elohiym power come from? By SIN. how many creature kinds have sinned? TWO. Not one as you claim. Must I show you the plain easy to read Scripture? 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. I mean how easy to read is this verse? An elohiym power is a power that sins. When a creature sins, as I read from Jewish commentary, the powers to know good is lost, and the creature cannot function correctly because they have lost GOD, who alone has wisdom to know both good and bad without sinning. And when a creature sins, they sin against GOD, hence oppose GOD. Thus any elohiym power is against GOD.That is why Ps 82 mentions Ps 82:1 Elohiym judgeth among the elohiym's. Moses speaks of other elohiym's De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not... Dave claims these shedim invent labels to cover up who they are and why they impose god worship upon humans. The shedim are sinning powers who trick humans into worshipping them. So where did the shedim come from, who is the Devil as a creature kind? Where does the Opposer come from? I have taken you these verses before. Take Ps 82 Ps 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Where does Scripture speak of " falling like a prince"? Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Is Satan a prince? yes/ Did Satan fall from heaven? yes/ Tabor video says this clearly but Dave refuses to listen.... Tabor does not ask how the Devil became a prince of the world, when God is supposed to be? Actually Adam was once prince of the world, but lost his crown due to his sin. ===================== Rob reads of Dave long list of things we disagree over. OK Dave, this thread is dedicated to Gordon's study of eloihym. I suggest we stick to the thread. Is elohiym a unit or not? Dave" Yep – ejected at Gen 1:2 - immediately upon creation of the Beast - DUHROb" Immediately upon creating the beast? Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: GOD does not punish even humans who lift up their hearts, its a gradual process, sin is a gradual process.Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. SIn is a gradual process duh. Sorry Dave you are wrong, you read Gnostic instead of reading Torah. Dave" In 1611 your KJ translators called them principalities Just your word gameROB the word "arche" means "re'shiyth" in Hebrew. Can your LXX scholarship confirm this? Dave" Call them by any name you want - the REALITY OF THE ARCHON remains the same It is just a game for you to playROb" It's your game you play, I call them cherubs that sin.Dave" I have answered every question you have ever asked – can you say the sameROB" Really? Dave is eloihym a unit? Dave" I am reading wikipedia on your question. – because you have no understanding of your ownROb" correct, I have little to do with human precepts and traditions outside of the torah, as the torah tells me to do. Dave" The question = How do you define the Nicean Creed?ROB" OK I will let the torah define the Nicean Creed? Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: The Nicean Creed is a precept of men, imposed upon people regarding their torah beliefs. Their traditonal beliefs may or may not be correct, but they impose the precepts upon ordinary humans who also read scripture, but cannot do so without bias, because of this tradition. Dave" Finish your answer - provide some type of answerROB" OK Elohiym is a divine family power that existed from all eternity as a divine family power. Using a precept tradition imposed upon me by men, Occam's razor- the principle (attributed to William of Occam) that in explaining a thing no more assumptions should be made than are necessary. The principle is often invoked to defend reductionism or nominalism. The smallest attributes of defining love in action and relational function is three uncaused causes. This power is beyond matter, time and space, and not associated with biology or anything that is known by man. Jesus is the Home Head of the Provider of Love, and the Responder of love is also an uncaused cause. A home head is a function we humans term "son" but refers to the "filling up" collecting powers and becoming fattened by those powers. The eternal provider provides love as gifts. One of those gifts is "faith" the process of power in words. The collector collects those words and lives under the powers of the provider using those words. Hence the "SON" is a "co-creator" along with the Provider. The Responder was also there doing what the words asked. I have shown you the verses for these ideas before. Regarding "begotten" Ps 2:7 ¶ I will declare <caphar> the decree <choq>: the LORD <Y@hovah> hath said <'amar> unto me, Thou art my Son <ben>; this day <yowm> have I begotten <yalad> thee. The word "yalad" means "male-born" The NT uses the word "monogenes" and this is a different Hebrew word "yaciyd" meaning "one and only" The uncaused cause cannot be "male-born", so this refers to when the Provider adds humanity to His Home-Head. So before this event, the Home-Head is termed in the torah as YHWH, He who exists. And also as a divine messenger for the Provider. ================================== Is elohiym a unit? ================================== www.jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/oneness-of-god-the-meaning-of-elohimTHE MEANING OF ’ELOHIM (Genesis 1:1) " Elohim, in the first verse of Genesis, does not show the existence of a plurality of persons in the God of Israel. Concerning human authority, it may indicate a plurality of persons. We read in Exodus 22:8: “Both parties shall come before the ’elohim [“judges”], and whom the ’elohim [“judges”] shall condemn, he shall pay double to his neighbor.” However, Jacob wrestles with one being, yet that being is referred to as ’elohim (Genesis 32:31); and the angel that appears to Manoah, the father of Samson, is also referred to as ’elohim (Judges 13:22). Note the words used by the woman in speaking to Saul when, upon seeing Samuel, she exclaims: “I see’elohim coming up out of the earth” (1 Samuel 28:13). Here, ’elohim is followed by the verb in the plural. Yet only a single individual is referred to, as is seen from verse 14: “And he said to her: ‘What is his appearance?’ And she said: ‘An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe.’” Thus, even joined to a plural verb the noun may still refer to a single individual." ROB" elohiym power does not have to invoke all three members, most times one member is referenced , other times two members are referenced at once, and other times all three members are referenced at one time. The Author does not consider this idea. " Elohim means “gods” only when the Bible applies this plural word to pagan deities. The pagan Philistines apply the title ’elohim to their god Dagon (Judges 16:23-24, 1 Samuel 5:7). The Moabites, likewise, used the word ’elohim to describe their god Chemosh (Judges 11:24). If trinitarian Christians are correct in their argument that the use of ’Elohim with a singular verb means there are three coeternal, coequal persons in one god, then the same thing must be true for the Philistine god Dagon and the Moabite god Chemosh. ROB" If eloihym refers to a unit, than a family power can be a unit of power, hence we have father deity, mother deity and child deities in pagan elohiym powers. The author does not consider this idea. " Throughout this passage, Baal is referred to as “he,” in the thirdperson singular, in conjunction with the plural ’elohim. Y-H-V-H is also addressed in the same language. Yet, where is the plurality of Baal if one wants to insist on trinitarian grammatical guidelines?ROB" Because Baal is a Provider elohiym power, referenced as masculine singular. The other family power in the unit, is not mentioned here, nor need to be mentioned. The author does not consider this idea? "There is simply no justification for the notion that ’Elohim denotes a plurality in the essence of God. Some trinitarians justify the use of the plural with Dagon, Chemosh, and Baal on the basis of the assumption that they were not the name of one idol only, but were the names of innumerable idols throughout the respective kingdoms where they were worshiped. Hence, Dagon, Chemosh, and Baal though in the singular form, are collective nouns, which embraced every idol of the realm. ROB" So the family pagan deity idea never existed? I don't think so. "One also needs to consider the frequent use of the singular ’Eloha. For example we find: “s.5” (Deuteronomy 32:15); “You that forgot God [’Eloha]” (Psalms 50:22); “At the presence of the God [’Eloha] of Jacob” (Psalms 114:7). If ’Elohim refers to a triune deity, how can one account for the alternate deployment of ’Elohim and ’Eloha? Isaiah declares: “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the Lord of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and besides Me there is no God [’Elohim]” (Isaiah 44:6). This is followed in verse 8 by: “Is there a God [’Eloha] besides Me?” If the truth of the doctrine of the Trinity depends in any measure on the plurality in form of the noun ’Elohim, the use of ’Eloha, the singular of the noun, most decidedly disproves it.ROB" ELoah is the name of one member of divine elohiym power, the Father/Provider The Author does not consider this idea. ===================== www.jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/oneness-of-god-the-meaning-of-elohimA Look at the Trinity From a Messianic Jewish Perspective by Jews for Jesus | July 03 1996 “ Hear, O Israel, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of faith; in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eye alone.…So it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by Adonai Eloheinu Adonai—three modes which yet form one unity.” Rob" nice idea. " What can we actually say that Judaism teaches? Some people see Judaism as a monolith of religion, with all its teachings resting upon the narrow foundation of the Shema. The Shema certainly is a point of unity that all who ascribe to the Jewish faith must affirm. But it does not state, imply, or even support many of the interpretations and opinions that are labeled “what Judaism teaches.” What Judaism teaches is neither static nor monolithic! Phrases such as “Judaism teaches” or “according to our tradition” are relative. They do not mean “this was, is, and always will be the one and only Jewish viewpoint.” ROB" I thought torah is always truth and never changes, it is the unravelling of truth that changes. Ancient sages struggled with several portions of the Hebrew Scriptures and their implications vis-a-vis God’s plurality. Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) is but one such passage. Isaiah 6:8 is another: “Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” However, the first “proof” passage on God as more than one appears in the first chapter of the Hebrew Scriptures: “And God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26).3ROB, such passages do exist. Much in Genesis 1:26 seems to confirm the idea that there is one God whose oneness is complex. The idea of God’s nature being three-in-one is mind-boggling. Contemplation of the infinite is always confusing to finite beings. Nevertheless, certain illustrations can help people grapple with the issue of a complex unity. C. S. Lewis, a talented philologist, writer and debater put it this way:
We must remind ourselves that Christian theology does not believe God to be a person. It believes Him to be such that in Him a trinity of persons is consistent with a unity of Deity. In that sense it believes Him to be something very different from a person, just as a cube, in which six squares are consistent with unity of the body, is different from a square. (Flatlanders, attempting to imagine a cube, would either imagine the six squares coinciding, and thus destroy their distinctness, or else imagine them set out side by side, and thus destroy the unity. Our difficulties about the Trinity are of much the same kind.)4 Rob" weird idea? According to Jewish tradition, scholars who worked on the Septuagint5 translation of the Hebrew Scriptures for King Ptolemy were embarrassed by the plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26. They took the liberty of changing the text from “let us” to “let me.”6 Such “liberty” violates the sacredness of Scripture.ROB" wow change the text? Other rabbinical commentators also took liberties with the text. The medieval rabbi, Ibn Ezra, described those commentators as “absurd” for attempting to translate the active “let us make” (na’a’seh) into a passive “there is made” (niphal). These commentators added that the phrase “in our image, after our likeness” was not said by God, but added as a postscript by Moses.ROB so Jewish sages notice the changes Rabbinical commentators and linguists recognize that the Hebrew language provides no real basis for such an explanation.15 Ibn Ezra quotes the Gaon,…who suggests that the plural of Genesis 1:26 is the plural of majesty. He refuted that view in favor of God having consulted the angels.16 However, we have already mentioned the difficulties of using angels to solve the mystery.ROB so the Jews babble to understand Like the personification of wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-31, the Word is often personified and assigned divine attributes, implying divine status.19 Memra is used to describe God Himself, especially when he is revealing himself to human beings. Rabbinical thought also links the Memra to the Messiah. The New Covenant portion of the Bible reveals a similar understanding of the role of the Word in creation.Rob" The memra is Jesus. Why the Rabbis Won’t Regard the Plurality of God with Credibility Some rabbis agreed that the Genesis 1:26 passage gives weight to the case for God’s plurality. Their position has not shaped the current position or practice of Jewish religious leaders:ROB I see, shaped by others, belong to a club? Rabbi Samuel ben Nahman said in Rabbi Jonathan’s name: “When Moses was engaged in writing the Torah, he had to write the work of each day. When he came to the verse, AND GOD SAID; LET US MAKE MAN, etc., he said: ‘Sovereign of the Universe! Why dost Thou furnish an excuse to heretics?’ (for maintaining a plurality of deity). ‘Write,’ replied He; ‘whoever wishes to err may err.'”22Rob" So they add excuses Sherlock Holmes once observed that when you have eliminated all possible explanations, the only remaining solution is the truth, no matter how impossible it seems.Rob" SO read the torah as it reads. ========================== digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1044&context=old-testament-pubsA Seventh Day Adventist view of evidence for trinity in the OT. ========================= www.jta.org/2017/08/15/ny/the-jewish-journey-from-singular-to-pluralThe Jewish Journey From Singular To Plural By Shlomo Riskin August 15, 2017 Hence, God begins with the singular and continues into the plural in order to impress upon the individual Israelite that he/she must in some way merge with the multitude and assume responsibility for the entire Jewish people, that “every Israelite is a co-signer, responsible for every other Israelite.”Rob" Jewish beating around the bush? It is recorded that the famed Rav Meir Shapiro of Lublin (1887-1933) was forced into a dispute with a Christian cardinal concerning the quality of our Jewish tradition. “The Talmud is blatantly anti-Christian,” argued the cardinal. “Does it not state that ‘only Israelites are called adam [Hebrew for human beings] whereas gentiles are not called adam,’ and therefore we gentiles are not considered by you to be human beings?!” Rav Shapiro explained that there are four synonyms for human being in the Hebrew language: gever, ish, enosh and adam. The first three of these nouns have both a singular and a plural: gevarim, ishim, aneshim; only adam has only one form, both singular and plural.” Humanity, a compound noun, includes every one together as a single organism.Rob" wow? So if "adam" is both singular and plural, why isn't elohiym also both "singular and plural? Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, The "us" refers to the plural elohiym, The the LORD eloihym refers to the singular elohym. The adam word has the same qualities as Jews note. It is my view elohiym is a unit. Prove me wrong Dave. Shalom
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Post by rob on Nov 16, 2023 21:24:16 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
=========A study of Nemeniah Gordon: part 2=======
Majestic plurals
(3) Gordon: "So why does Elohim have a plural suffix if it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective? It turns out there is a special type of plural in Hebrew that has a plural suffix even though it is numerically singular with a singular verb and singular adjective. These nouns are called majestic plurals. It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural. (3) Rob" Why is elohiym (true elohim context) become a majestic plural (great GOD) and for elohiym (pagan context) a numerical plural? Something is biased here? Why can't the false elohiym power also be a "great Opposing elohiym power" like the 'heavenly elohim" is?
(3) Gordon " Elohim is used numerous times throughout the Tanach to refer to pagan gods and in most of these instances it is a numerical plural denoting multiple (false) gods. So we see that when the Tanach speaks about YHWH it uses Elohim as the majestic plural meaning "great God" but when it speaks about pagan gods it uses Elohim as a numerical plural meaning "gods". (3) Rob" Most of these cases? Show us the exceptions? Why the different rules for plural suffix, depending whom is referenced? this shows bias.
(3) Gordon " At the same time we must observe that Ashtoret, Kemosh, and Milkom are each referred to as Elohim even though there is nothing multiple about any one of them.
Rob" Is this true? Was the female deity Ashtoret, part of a family deity, with a male deity, like Baal?
is this not true for all pagan deities? Again not sure what Gordon means by multiple? In Greek family of deities, each member has independent powers, so this is different to the defintion of the true "family-power"/ elohim in heaven, where there is no independent strong authority within elohiym. Why does Gordon consider many persons of one being, as multiple? Consider the word "adam", such a word is multiple according to Gordon, but the word is actually meaning "mankind'.
When a true marriage is considered, this word is also considered multiple by Gordon? But such a word is considered as a family power or as Jeff Benner defined the term as a "unit". Again what is multiple about a unit? Nothing. What is multiple about a true marriage? Nothing. Unless of cause you make reference to an imperfect marriage than one who commits adultery than the word marriage might be multiple for this scenario. Consider the word "government" is this word multiple? Sure it has elected members in the system, but the word itself is not multiple, unless we are taking about corrupt goverments, than we could talk about governments with multiple interests, apart from the people who elected them.
But in an perfect world, like elohiym, the word "government" is not multiple at all, but more like a "unit" where the powers function as one source.
(3) Gordon" That YHWH is a single individual and not a multiplicity of gods or personalities is consistent with what we find throughout the Hebrew Scriptures" (3) Rob" This statement is false. So there is cardinally one strong Authority, one personality of loving, found in the torah, is false. Both ahab love and ahabuh love is found within YHWH and elohiym verses. If you assume one being can express both personalities of love, we have a problem as it conflicts with the Creation model, where the invisible nature of the Godhead is clearly seen and man has no excuse (Rom 1:20). Very few animals display both personalties of love in the same creature, an earthworm comes to mind, but all other higher animals were created with two personalities of love within each animal kind. Such an arrangement allows for love to be relational, as the love bounces between provider and responder, and thus shows love as relational, not cardinal, as there is no such thing as self love in a perfect sinless domain.
I pause to add that providers can also respond, but they are mostly providers of love. And gender female can have traits of gender male, but the gender females are mostly responders of love, not mostly providers of love.
But humans live in an imperfect sinful world and we assume self and selfish love is the complete norm, and thus see God in this monotheistic model, whatever this word means. It makes more rational sense to see elohim as a community picture, with sharing as the common theme for love and being loved. You cannot share if your cardinally alone, And sharing outside your kind, is not the same as showing true love. Adam felt lonely for he had no help mate. God describes himself as a help mate to humans, but Adam still felt lonely. The love provided and responded to must happen within your kind. This must apply to elohiym too as Romans 1:20 implies we consider God's creation a model of the secret qualities of the Godhead.
The same applies to divinity. Would not divinity be lonely if no divine provider had no divine responder to discuss things to? Or a collector of both loves types, as we humans picture a "Son".
Sharing with creatures like angels is not the same as sharing with divine members of divinity. Created angels are not divine, so their level of communion is very different if we were to consider elohiym powers communing with other members of divinity. (3) Gordon " . Moses declares to the children of Israel, "YHWH is our Elohim, YHWH is one" (Dt 6:4). Were YHWH a multiplicity of gods or personalities what would be the point of saying that He is "one"? (3) Rob" In a perfect sinless domain, the Hebrew declares the two become one. They function as one strong authority, not several strong authorities.
Consider this example of Abraham
Abraham was both an adon and a baal over his household, a foundational Lord and a Master over his wife Sarah. He was a leader over more than 600 families of men who all lived as one community, in a circle of tents, under one foundation Lord. One day a divine Lord came to Abram's tent:
Ge 18:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant.
Abraham greets the visitor and promises to offer bread and water
Ge 18:6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah,
Here the Lord delgates other duties to make bread
Ge 18:7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetch a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man;
Here Abraham asks more servants to help him
Ge 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
So when Abraham said He would supply water and bread, it is true, He (masculine singular) did supply water and bread, but actually a community effort was involved. The same community effort was involved during the Creation. The Collective love (Jesus, the Son) spoke the words, the Responder to those words (the Holy Spirit) acted upon those words using the flow of power from the overall Most High Provider, Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (Ruwach / HS) of his mouth.
Pr 8:27 When he (Jesus-YHWH) prepared the heavens, I (wisdom/ Rwuach/ HS) was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:of his mouth.
Mal 2:10 ¶ Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?
If we were to consider Jeff Benner he might translate Ps 33:6 as By the word of the YHWH {He exists} were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the wind of his mouth.
ROB" This gives the impression YHWH alone created the heaven by YHWH power alone. There is a fundamental problem using "wind" as a translation, because "wind" is not something that exists on it's own. Hence the word "wind" is wrong. The concrete Hebrew meaning would be "medium", but medium is also not a concrete term, even though a medium is made from media, which are concrete.
When air (media) moving relative to air (media) due to a temperature gradient between the two media, we see "wind" as a movement of air, and this overall process is termed a "medium affect".
On it's own wind cannot exist, unless two gradient masses of air cause a flow of air, than the wind can exist because of the two media.
Mediums carry things from one thing or place to another thing or place. Since a divine being is creating by the medium of his mouth, this implies another divine being is involved carrying the creative process from one location to another. There is nothing multiple in the creative process, as each divine member is system of making the creative process work as a unit. In fact the separation of the unit, is the true defintion of death. We see this when the Yeshua the Son of Elohiym powers says
Psalms 22:1 My Strong Auhtority, My Strong Authority why are you so far from Yashua, from the wrods of my roaring?
The first death is termed a sleep, and the medium only departs from the human, as a temporary end to living under Eloihiym powers.
The second death is termed a non-existence state, where ALL elohiym powers leave you forever.
(3) Gordon" He is just simply "one", in every respect of the word. (3) Rob" It is very misleading to readers to assume "echad" the Hebrew word behind this word "one" does in fact meaning cardinally one. The Hebrew word for cardinally one in number is yachiyd.
As seen in this verse:-
Ge 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,
Another Hebrew word offering the numerial value of one is "asar"
Ge 32:22 And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven "asar" "echad" sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok
Notice both "Asar" and "echad" are together making the value of eleven.
Ex 26:7 ¶ And thou shalt make curtains of goats' hair to be a covering upon the tabernacle: eleven "ashtey" "asar" curtains shalt thou make.
Notice for this verse the two word "ashtey" and "asar" make the value of eleven. In the Psalms it is written elohiym-power has a yachiyd.
Ps 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling "yachiyd" from the power of the dog.
See also Zec 12:10.
Jeff Benner defines the word echad as "unit", NOT "one" .
(3) Gordon " In these verses the word for "God" is Eloha ?לוֹהֱּ ַ , the singular form of Elohim. (3) Rob" Gordon does not discuss why there is a need for Eloah and Elohiym? Is Eloah just the singular term for Elohiym which is plural?
If you study all all the verses of Eloah, you find Eloah refers to a "father deity:" and from context could mean the "Most High Father" or a "Pagan father god" . The word is singular because the term refers to a single "el" or "Strong Authority" who functions as a Provider. Gordon fails to inform readers in Job, the earliest account of written Hebrew scriptures, the word elohiym is rarely used and the most common words used is Eloah and Shadday, suggesting that heavenly parents are referenced in this "family-power".
The Provider expresses Ahab love, as is common with human gender male. De 30:20 That thou mayest love "ahab" the LORD "YHWH" thy God "elohiym", and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Ho 14:4 ¶ I will heal their backsliding, I will love "ahab" them freely:
The responder expresses ahabuh love, as in common with human gender female. Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love "ahabuh"and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit:
2Ch 9:8 ..thy God "elohiym" loved "ahabuh" Israel,....
Job 11:7 ¶ Canst thou by searching find out "eloah" God? canst thou find out the "shadday" Almighty unto perfection?
In the Hebrew peom, is a parallel declaring two functions descriptions of the strong authority in heaven, but why in two titles, "eloah" and "shadday"?
Job 40:1 ¶ Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
In this verse towards the end of JOB, the YHWH speaks saying who shall contend with Eloah, who shall answer to Shadday? We see three functional descriptions of the elohiym power in heaven.
(3) Gordon" Indeed, YHWH is called by the singular Eloha (God) some 47 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures which proves that He is not a plurality or multiplicity. (3) Rob" This is stratedgy called "Bait and Switch". It means to switch from a singular term to hide the plural term under study, taking the casual reader away from present truth.
The word study under investigation is "elohim" which is plural, not YHWH which is "singular" as a term. And Eloah is singular as a term too. For that matter Shadday is singular as a term too. And the ruwach is also singular as a term.
(3) Gordon lists 47 verses: "Indeed, YHWH is called by the singular Eloha (God) some 47 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures which proves that He is not a plurality or multiplicity (3) Dt 32:15.17; (3) Rob: De 32:8 When the most High divided the nations of Israel....
De 32:12 So the LORD alone did lead him(Israel),
Why does verse 11 include a poetry simile of an female eagle, if YHWH alone went with Israel?
De 32:11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:
ROB" The same term as the "ruwach of elohiym powers" which Jeff Benner translates as "wind of elohiym powers"? If the wind is only wind, why add the creature the eagle, and in the NT the dove, as similes of this wind? Sure fluttering the wings causes wind, but the creature makes the wind, is the purpose of the simile. Wind on it's own is impersonal, but a creature making the wind, makes the picture of elohiym power personal, and this idea is important.
De 32:13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
Notice YHWH makes Israel ride on high ( a reference to an eagle) and drink honey from the "cela" rock, sitting on top of the "tsuwr" rock. Why mention two types of rock? If you look up "cela" rock, it is a common reference to Yashua, the rock of ages. And the foundation tsuwr rock is a flint rock about the heavenly Father.
The eagle is a reference to the HS as a functioning fluttering medium with wings.
Jeff Benner defines "alone" as separated from the household, not techncially on your own, so we can gather Yashua lead Israel but the other divine members of Elohiym power were not far away from the Son Of God.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 17, 2023 0:56:58 GMT -5
Ps 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits (medium) "ruwach" Yes – Robert this is the question to you – you claim that God cannot make mediums/spirits that ate independent individuals So answer the question – If God cannot create mediums/spirits/angels – who did?Angels come to us as mediums, and mediums can be invisible or visible depending upon how the medium wishes to appear. Angels have things we see as wings, Many angels in the OT do not have wings – or are you suggesting that your angels can shape shift and can appear in any form they want? You absolutely deny that the archon can do this – fantasy you sayJust more Robert contradiction------------------------------- Eze 1:12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit "grand medium" was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. The grand medium moves the angels about, wherever they wish to go. Correct – you teach that the HS drives angels and man aroundI said for one thing, angels do not have omnipresence.... SO no angel could function as a grand medium.OK – You have gone from there is no such thing as mediums/spirits/winds/cherubs/angels To - now you have a Grand medium/spirit/wind cherub = Holy Spirit And you also have as lesser medium/spirit/wind/cherub = angels So who created the lesser medium/spirits/winds/cherubs/angels – you demand that God CANNOT---------------------------------------- Dave" Prove to me that 3D biology can do this Rob" Biology does NOT do these things, You teach that God and angels are biology – now you contradict yourself-------------------------------------- Dave" Correct Robert – we are changed – to be like ethereal beings Rob" Dave we humans are "already ethereal beings Dave"you demand that all creatures are corporeal ROb" read my post here. Ethereal is just GODly powers flowing out from biology when GOD wishes to. You should not use words you do not understand – just makes you look unintelligent--------------------------------------- Dave" Baal is just a creature – just a pretender – false – imaginary – he only gets his power from the people Rob" really imaginary elohiym power invented by people? Careful Robert your intelligent ass is showing------------------------------------- Dave" None of these gods are opposing God's right to rule the universe1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. I mean how easy to read is this verse? Yep and the sin of Gen 1:2 = ignorance of God / darknessAnd when a creature sins, they sin against GOD, hence oppose GOD. Thus any elohiym power is against GOD. To satisfy Ellen White tradition How does the man Caesar get into heaven to oppose God’s right to rule the universe?---------------------------------------------- Dave claims these shedim invent labels to cover up who they are and why they impose god worship upon humans. The shedim are sinning powers who trick humans into worshipping them. Yes there are – 100% archon of the Beast of Revelation – our real struggleSo where did the shedim come from, who is the Devil as a creature kind? Where does the Opposer come from? Rev 12:1 Rev 12:2 During creation – Gen 1:1 Rev 12:3 The BEAST appeared –a great red dragon, Gen 1:2 – Darkness / ignorance------------------------------------------------ Dave" Yep – ejected at Gen 1:2 - immediately upon creation of the Beast - DUH ROb" Immediately upon creating the beast? Eze 28:5 its a gradual process, sin is a gradual process. Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Correct = precpt upon precept, line upon line your Ezk 28 teaching is not validated by the bulk of scripture===================== Rob reads of Dave long list of things we disagree over. You mean Judeo-Christian teaching that you denyIs elohiym a unit or not?The Trinity = One God with 3 different modesA face – that no man can see His Glory – than man can experience His image – than man can see and understand as another man Dave" I have answered every question you have ever asked – can you say the same ROB" Really? Dave is eloihym a unit?The Trinity = One God with 3 different modesA face – that no man can see His Glory – than man can experience His image – than man can see and understand as another man Dave" I am reading wikipedia on your question. – because you have no understanding of your own ROb" correct, I do not know scripture well or have studied Christian principlesDave" The question = How do you define the Nicean Creed? ROB" OK I will let the torah define the Nicean Creed? Isa 29:13 the precept of men: The Nicean Creed is a precept of men, The question = Was Jesus born divine (God incarnate as I and all other Christians teach) – or was Jesus a man whose personality was replaced by the Divine when John the Baptist baptized Him
Elohiym is a divine family power that existed from all eternity as a divine family power. OK – what is the answer to the Nicaean question?Rob - This power is beyond matter, time and space, and not associated with biology or anything that is known by man. Rob - ROb" read my post here. Ethereal is just GODly powers flowing out from biology when GOD wishes to. Make up your mind – is God biology or NOT?The uncaused cause cannot be "male-born", so this refers to when the Provider adds humanity to His Home-Head. So before this event, the Home-Head is termed in the torah as YHWH, He who exists. And also as a divine messenger for the Provider. What does this mean – just gibberish===================== www.jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/oneness-of-god-the-meaning-of-elohimA Look at the Trinity From a Messianic Jewish Perspective by Jews for Jesus | July 03 1996 “Hear, O Israel, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai is one. These three are one. How can the three Names be one? Only through the perception of faith; in the vision of the Holy Spirit, in the beholding of the hidden eye alone.…So it is with the mystery of the threefold Divine manifestations designated by Adonai Eloheinu Adonai—three modes which yet form one unity.”Rob" nice idea. Threefold manifestation – three modes If I say it – you argue it is wrong – if someone else says it you say NICEWe must remind ourselves that Christian theology does not believe God to be a person. It believes Him to be such that in Him a trinity of persons is consistent with a unity of Deity. In that sense it believes Him to be something very different from a person, just as a cube, in which six squares are consistent with unity of the body, is different from a square. (Flatlanders, attempting to imagine a cube, would either imagine the six squares coinciding, and thus destroy their distinctness, or else imagine them set out side by side, and thus destroy the unity. Our difficulties about the Trinity are of much the same kind.)4Rob" weird idea?What is weird – are you really that dull?God is not a person – He is so much more Because we are limited in our view – we cannot imagine / see the whole A $1 coin – can never be seen as a whole We are limited in our view – we can only see the heads side – or the Tails side – one at a time All 3 are 1 – all 3 are separate – all 3 can never be seen as a whole According to Jewish tradition, scholars who worked on the Septuagint5 translation of the Hebrew Scriptures for King Ptolemy were embarrassed by the plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26. They took the liberty of changing the text from “let us” to “let me.”6 Such “liberty” violates the sacredness of Scripture.ROB" wow change the text? OH YES – if you bothered to study scripture at depth – you will discover many textual criticisms ========================== So if "adam" is both singular and plural, why isn't elohiym also both "singular and plural? Ge 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, The "us" refers to the plural elohiym, The the LORD eloihym refers to the singular elohym. The adam word has the same qualities as Jews note. It is my view elohiym is a unit. The question = Was Jesus born divine (God incarnate as I and all other Christians teach) – or was Jesus a man whose personality was replaced by the Divine when John the Baptist baptized Him Where is your answer? Are you afraid to answer ? Why do you continue to refuse to answer direct questions? You are trying to teach that God and Jesus Christ are just biology How does biology exist before biology is even created Answer the question by Niccodemus - How can a mature biological person enter the womb again and become reborn as an infant in a manger =========A study of Nemeniah Gordon: part 2======= Majestic plurals (3) Gordon- It is worth noting that the word Elohim is not always a majestic plural. When referring to the pagan gods, the term Elohim is usually a numerical plural. (3) Rob" Why is elohiym (true elohim context) become a majestic plural (great GOD) Because God exist in a plurality – Jews have a Duality – Christians have a Trinity
and for elohiym (pagan context) a numerical plural? Because there are many – other godsSomething is biased here? Yep – They recognize the One true God as a pluralityWhy can't the false elohiym power also be a "great Opposing elohiym power" like the 'heavenly elohim" is?This is Ellen White entire teaching A created being – recreated himself and recreated 1/3rd of all of God’s angels – then recreated all of God’s creation - for the purpose of opposing God’s right to rule the universe – basic word for word Catholic Catechism 101(3) Gordon" That YHWH is a single individual and not a multiplicity of gods or personalities is consistent with what we find throughout the Hebrew Scriptures" (3) Rob" This statement is false. Sorry Robert – scripture declares that there is only One true God there is no other You reject scripture So there is cardinally one strong Authority, one personality of loving, found in the torah, is false. Both ahab love and ahabuh love is found within YHWH and elohiym verses. If you assume one being can express both personalities of love, we have a problem as it conflicts with the Creation model Correct – you teach that your God is small – He CANNOT – is unable – limited in His abilities Sure not a Judeo-Christian teaching Sounds more like religious blasphemy - or at least insulting and slanderous toward GodMal 2:10 ¶ Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? If we were to consider Jeff Benner he might translate Ps 33:6 as By the word of the YHWH {He exists} were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the wind of his mouth. ROB" This gives the impression YHWH alone created the heaven by YHWH power alone. Yep – OT God did it – NT Christ did it / God = Christ or Christ = God – via the Holy SpiritThere is a fundamental problem using "wind" as a translation, because "wind" is not something that exists on it's own. Hence the word "wind" is wrong. The concrete Hebrew meaning would be "medium", but medium is also not a concrete term, even though a medium is made from media, which are concrete. So confused – is ruwach – wind – spirit – Holy Spirit - medium – or cherub
There is a fundamental problem using "wind" as a translation, because "wind" is not something that exists on it's own. Hence the word "wind" is wrong. I agree – it was the Holy Spirit – the Spirit of God – all creation is from the female wombYou claim ruwach is not something that can exist on its own Yet you claim that God created angels ruwach / wind / mediums / cherubs / Holy Spirits
Do you know what you believe – because no one reading this does!
AND WHERE ARE YOUR ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS?
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Post by rob on Nov 17, 2023 17:06:44 GMT -5
Greetings Dave DAVE" So answer the question – If God cannot create mediums/spirits/angels – who did?Rob" Of course my God can create a grand medium (HS) , but your view of a solitary Father cannot create a grand medium, like a HS function. Not without another uncaused cause who is both divine and eternal like the Father is. And you cannot explain how a solitary Father can, your feminine expression idea would not work. A passive medium, yes the Father could create that and allow his flow to move from where He is into all humans, without killing them with His glory, as medium properties will provide diminished and virtual properties to assist the Father in not directly exterminating sinful humans. Part of your theory, is about the Father creating intentionally with RA, such a entropy, is violation of the torah, and Jewish commentary eg: Lam 3:38 The Father does not do RA normally. But sinners are not passive, they are actively choosing different things all the time, breaking faith and making faith, being wicked and also being a saint. So we also require an active medium, one that is passive, but also administrated, so the properties of a medium changes as the free will of the human changes. Hence an impartial administrator such as the Shadday does this function, who is also known as the Holy Spirit. SO yes, in my view, with elohiym as a unit of three uncaused eternal members, making a grand medium, to allow the Father's flow into humans, is easy to achieve. It is done by the Shadday. But you don't have a Shadday, you have a Father feminine expression role playing. While we are on the subject of a solitary Father, who have never explained how the Father on it's own can love and thus give something only the Father loves as His own. This is the highest quality of love, to allow your one and only SON to come and do things for humans, to demonstrate sharing, and with that sharing the extreme quality of love, ie risk. The Father risks that His Son may sin, and so bring the problem of sinning never to an end. So your Father alone cannot share, nor show love, or demonstrate risk, like I am telling you, and you cannot explain these qualties with a solitary Father. Hence you ignore my question and do not even try to answer the question. I pity such ignorance on your part, and what is worse Jews know this problem bit choose to ignore it, to their peril. John 3:16 says the Provider so loved the world that the Provider gave His one and only (yacciyd) SON.... Not possible with your Father making and expression idea....of Himself.... be honest and think about this....and answer my questions if you dare to even try. Your Father would be role playing, and hence the love, and risk shown as a gift, is a fake, a pretending risk, the Father would lose nothing, nor could the Father sin, as the expression is Himself, so the real Father's mind would not sin. It's a little like a grand owner making making three sub-companies off the one business, so if one sub company becomes bank rupt, the main business still operates normally. Try to answer me queries Dave, like I answer yours. Dave" Many angels in the OT do not have wings Rob" I never said angels have wings, I said they get on board a living creature, a HS function who has "wings" that move angels to anywhere they wish. I showed the verse even? Can't you read? Dave" You absolutely deny that the archon can do thisROb" Archons do not exist Dave, no Hebrew word like this. In order for a creature to be a kind, they must be created (bara). Where is the Bible verse for archons created? There isn't one. Dave" Correct – you teach that the HS drives angels and man aroundROb" Yes, so this is one way to get around friction in movement, in a sinless perfect utopian domain. Dave" SO no angel could function as a grand medium.ROb" COrrect Dave" OK – You have gone from there is no such thing as mediums/spirits/winds/cherubs/angels To - now you have a Grand medium/spirit/wind cherub = Holy Spirit And you also have as lesser medium/spirit/wind/cherub = angels So who created the lesser medium/spirits/winds/cherubs/angels – you demand that God CANNOTROb" What? Are you OK? sometimes you fathom and sometimes you mock intentionally? Can't you read what is your view and what is my view? Dave" You teach that God and angels are biology – now you contradict yourselfROb" O boy. Can't you read? I have never said GOD is biology. Dave" You should not use words you do not understand – just makes you look unintelligentROb" you should talk, you cannot define ethereal - you say is it something unknown, something of God. By the way such a word does not exist in the Hebrew, or the Greek, it is invented entirely within Dave. Sure I agree with the verses that speak of us getting something, but the Scriptures do not label this something with a Greek word, only that our older flesh with corrupted DNA is changed. Dave" Dave" None of these gods are opposing God's right to rule the universeROB" They can't can they, the idol gods are invented by humans, and only humans are false eloihym powers, since only humans can sin. It is no wonder your theory is so false, and yet so clouds your mind in darkness. Question: Can other creatures sin ? Dave's answer is NO.Well that's funny, the Scritpure says the Devil (shedim) sin. Dave's answer is the word for sin is wrong, misapplied and really means ignorance for these creature of RA, which the Father intentionally designed to be made with RA, hence these creatures sin but do not morally sin like humans do? What a pile of error.. Jewish commentary says the Father cannot do RA (Lam 3:38) thank you for allowing me to read Jewish material, for at least often they are correct. So your idea of the Father creating shedim with intentional RA in them is bogus. Also the idea of the Father creating yester RA intentionally inside sinless humans is also bogus - thank you Jews for your commentary, I am glad some people agree with me, apart from Ellen White, which Dave dislikes with much intent. I think i's time you showed me any Jewish quotes showing where the shedim come from? Or does the Father really do RA normally? Seems like Jewish material is silent on these matters. So if the Jews are silent on these matters, perhaps it is best to read the torah as the torah reads afterall? Exekiel 28 says a cherub chata..... bingo, we have on record in the torah that angels sin. But you say this is a Roman Catholic idea, NO is the Hebrew truth. Why you do not understand is the master deceiver decided to make an antiChrist church with some truth and lots of error, and a Jewish theology with forced truth and lots of disregard for their own torah. Such an OPPOSER, opposes GOD in every angle, even with truth and error. But you say the Opposer never opposes GOD. When a creature sins, by defintion they become an elohiym power, and hence oppose GOD. What do you think a lying medium is, that GOD asks for? And the angel agrees to go ? Is this evidence of GOD seeking a volunteer servant, or GOD allowing the Opposer to go, since the human king no longer wishes to have GOD in his life? Where does the empowerment of evil come from? Must come from agent of RA, the lying medium, a angel who sins. By the way lying is a sin, another thing you disagree with. Like another Jewish comment I read, they speak of the Job account as GOD talking to a Satanic angel. Wow. strange to make an adjective, when in Hebrew we don't have adjective? Does GOD talk to angels that sin (hence become opposers to God - ie satan) Yes indeed God does, they both seem friendly, after all the sinning angel cannot depose of God, since God is the author of all power. So the COntroversy is over relationships instead, not over power. All I have given to you is in your power, God says, go and do as you do. So the Opposer goes, as a satanic angel, and kills all of Job's children. And sometimes I dislike Jewish material, and they say that the Opposes suffered more than Job, because God limited his powers to only killing off his children, and not killing off Job himself. In a way this is true, but also a cruel thing to write. Job is the best book to prove the Satanic Angel opposes God, but Dave ignores this and so do Jews, how sad. Where did the lightning come from that fell from heaven unto Job's assets? From God? No, from human power? No, from the Satanic Angel? Yes, directly from the Opposer himself, proving the Opposer's power killing off Job's children, even if a human department did the killing per se, the Opposer empowered the evil in the humans. SO Dave's idea is none of these imaginary gods oppose GOD in heaven, or GOD on earth. I pity your lack of understanding Dave. Dave" Yep and the sin of Gen 1:2 = ignorance of God / darknessROB" See, the Hebrew word chata, the Greek word hamartano does not mean "to miss", it means "ignorance of God / darkness" So Dave wishes to water down sin from moral sin into natural sin, playing a word game, because his archons do not have free will to sin, and the Father intentionally created the archons with RA in them on purpose, Such writing do not exist in the torah, but in other writings written by Opposer, who told humans to write, so the messages can even oppose the torah itself. And you claim the Opposer does not oppose GOD, well start looking at how your Gnostic writing oppose the torah. They are darkness, completely opposing the torah and thus opposing God. RobPP" And when a creature sins, they sin against GOD, hence oppose GOD. Thus any elohiym power is against GOD.Dave" To satisfy Ellen White tradition How does the man Caesar get into heaven to oppose God’s right to rule the universe?ROb" Really Dave, does a creature have to oppose the Father directly to His face in order to oppose the omnipresence Father? Is not the earth also heaven, and is not under the ground, also before the Father's face. And when you sin in private in a dark place locked in a cupboard, does not the Father's spirit stand directly before you watching your every move? Caesar was a false elohiym power, yes, but not the one in the Genesis 2 story, there the false elohiym poweer was the serpent, also known as the shedim. also known as the Opposer. Why is the Hebrew word meaning Opposer? Because every time a creature sins they oppose GOD, who never sins. DUH The very meaning of the Word tells you the Opposer opposes the Father, because sinning is all about opposing the Father. You get around this idea on several accounts 1) your Father normally does RA 2) your serpent never sins 3) even telling a lie is not a sin according to Dave 4) the serpent never murdered anybody ? that's funny, you mean 'hareg', yes, the Opposer never 'hareg' anyone before Gen 1 meaning to 'kill' them, but the serpent did 'ratsach' millions of other angels, told them stories to 'wound' them and rob them of their 'salvation right' to live in the Father's grace, they also refused to repent, all to make the grand Opposer oppose the Father in his sinning. But you oppose this too, saying the war in heaven lasted only a few seconds, so was not about sinning at all. Well with false statements like that, one has to give up on your Dave, your conscience is seared with the hot iron of error. I fear your view is so uncrackable that even truth cannot crack your closed mind open to reason with God's truth. Partly you are not to be blamed, for Jewish material fails to explain the origin of the shedim, fails to explain God's function to create RA, and fails to explain the notion of yester ra embedded in humans to begin with. Jews do not even use Hebrew word meaning correctly like 'echad', meaning 'one', rather it should mean 'unit'. Jews also ignore torah verses when it goes against certain traditions. Overall I find Jewish material difficult to assess properly, one has to pick out little truths among a confusion of statements. ROb PP" So where did the shedim come from, who is the Devil as a creature kind? Where does the Opposer come from?Dave" Rev 12:1 Rev 12:2 During creation – Gen 1:1 Rev 12:3 The BEAST appeared –a great red dragon, Gen 1:2 – Darkness / ignoranceRob replies" Re 12:1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Who is the woman with child Dave, before Gen 1:1, are you saying the child is Jesus? Your time of events it wrong? Please detail the verse into your theory of the created archon. Do not use Gnostic material, it must come entirely from the NT torah. Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. I see this as a poetry parallel, two accounts in two different times, telling us a parallel. The woman with child is a simile of the church with Jesus, coming unto the earth .... The woman with child, is the HS with her SON being born and coming to earth.... The great red dragon, a dinosaur animal, stood before the HS/ with child (Jesus) ready to destroy Jesus. The parallel of the third part of the stars of heaven.... stars are similes of sinless creatures under GOD. The woman with child, is also a Mother of all living, with stars under her also... Here are parallels of the Opposer taking many stars for his own, removing stars from GOD, thus opposing GOD directly. Destoying the Jesus child is also opposing GOD directly. A war in heaven is also opposing God directly. All these events took time, hundreds of years of time in fact, not your second squirmish as you claim. Dave" Rev 12:3 The BEAST appeared –a great red dragon,Rob" The verse does not say the BEAST was created does it? So your beast power already existed. Where in the OT torah does this NT torah match truth? you accept the NT here as truth, where is your OT truth Dave? In a verse you ignore.
Dave" Correct = precpt upon precept, line upon line your Ezk 28 teaching is not validated by the bulk of scripture
ROb" I see Dave can view the Scriptures as error if the bulk of verse speak of a different view. I pity your BIble method of reading Scripture. SO using your method, the word faith is a mental assent meaning? And for one verse, I can ignore the verse, and say the torah is in error. Here is the verse that all the other verses speak differently. Ex 17:12 ...and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun So this verse meaning is ignored for the bulk of Scripture. No wonder you are so confused. But in your defense so are millions of people confused, claiming to have faith. Faith is so rare God says when I come will I find faith on the earth? RobPP Is elohiym a unit or not?
Dave does not answer the question, he fumbles with " The Trinity = One God with 3 different modes" ROb" Are you going to answer the question Dave? with yes or no please? (1) Can you show any main steam Christian church that says the trinity refers to the Father as three expressions? The Catholic church used to mean this I think, a star fish with three arms, three expressions of the Father ?, now they seem to teach three persons of the godhead? You hate Catholic edit so much, how come you support Catholic Edit now? I mean what do Catholic really believe is really impossible to say? But when I was 16 they taught the three arms of the one substance idea. Now they preach three persons of the one substance idea, to align with modern traditions. Just to confuse the issues. (2) Show me a Jew who would agree with you Dave. (3) SHow me a proper church who agree with you. =============== Dave" The question = Was Jesus born divine (God incarnate as I and all other Christians teach) – or was Jesus a man whose personality was replaced by the Divine when John the Baptist baptized HimROB" Neither. To imagine any of these ideas is to deny Christ period. Jesus is YHWH from all eternity, the great uncaused cause, the Home-Head, a term meaning to be filled with His Father's words of power (which is what faith is about) and to show extreme love, ie the Father sent His one and only. A gift of true love. Divinity cannot be born, or imparted or given as a gift. It's a quality that belongs to a divine kind. A dog cannot impart qualties to a cat, as the DNA cannot be removed and given away to another creature kind. Only a creator can do that, and humans pretend to be like the Creator. However the divine is not of biology or of matter, so we cannot speak of Christ and the Father in terms we humans try to fathom. ROb PP "Elohiym is a divine family power that existed from all eternity as a divine family power.Dave" OK – what is the answer to the Nicaean question? ROb" SDA humans have grappled with this idea for years. Some have wandered away for this too. Does the Father really have a Son? Or is this role playing? Hmm? First the notion of a Father and a Son is wrong, but I suppose I can be word game playing. The thing we must understand is the three uncaused causes came into existence all at once in this way for a reason. Love requires three entities for loving to function properly.
Hence the terms of Father Son and Mother exist in ways humans can fathom. SO yes the Father really does have a one and only Son. And yes the Father is married to his wife from all eternity. But I must stress we think darkly and this is my two pennies to try to fathom things too high for me. Funny I am using "Gordons royal we" here. It means my words are not my words but God writing for me, hence we. Dave" Make up your mind – is God biology or NOT?ROb" Absolutely NOT, God is not of matter, time or space. GOD is divine, and divine is something we humans cannot fathom. Does the word divine exist in Hebrew? No it doesn't. So am I making stuff up like Dave was with his word ethereal? Hmm? Hab 3:4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power. OK let's try to find this Hebrew word. GOD is light. Is light of matter? Hmm? Dunno. some say light is matter some say light is a wave... Here is the word "chebyown" and does Jeff Benner explain this word? Ancient Hebrew " (from) The Outside Home with Active Hands secure flows over the nations" The Ancient Hebrew simply states that from the hands of GOD flows something over the nations, but does not explain what this is. Word only used once. So we do not understand what divine means. It is something that flows from the hands of GOD over the nations, as light, embedded with waves and matter. However the word "divine" does exist in the Hebrew, used only once. Nobody has seen the shape of the Father or the Shadday, so again we do not know much about GOD. But we do know GOD is love, GOD never lies, GOD never chooses to sin, GOD normally does not tolerate RA or do RA. Dave" What does this mean – just gibberishROb" Sorry Ex 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send "my Messenger" before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. The Father's name is in the Messenger. Who is this messenger? who forgives sins? Jesus is. Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Who is this "me" before eternity and creation? Jesus is Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: Who is this "I" termed "wisdom"? The HS is the Shadday. Is there any place where all three are referenced as one context? yesPr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.All three names here "ruwach" "eloah" and "memra the Son" And Job 40:1 ¶ Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
All three names here, YWHW, eloah and the Shadday. Notice the memra/Son is termed YHWH, the He who exists. the Father is also masculine along with the Son, so there are Two masculine's who exist, as the term YHWH tells us. The two hey letters refer to each one of the masculine divine members. The term masculine is not of biology but about loving. Both show provider love, ie masculine love. The Shadday shows feminine love or responder love. The SON shows collective love, can do both, shown here Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit:
Not sure of the term "angel of his presence" Messenger of His presence, refers to the Son and the HS working together for the Father. The Son is referenced first. In his femaleness love of the Son, not including the HS and her femaleness love. Just as the two rocks, the cela rock is Jesus the Son and the twusr rock is the Father, both followed Israel. the eagle is also mentioned in Deutromy 32 also De 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. One strong authority here, "el" the twusr, the rock, the Father, who is also Father-YHWH. De 32:11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: And the HS mentioned as an aside ? De 32:12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. "ALone" Jeff explains separated from. (not solitary) The Lord here may refer to Jesus-YWHW, the other divine members separated partially from their Son. De 32:13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; "He" the Son, made him (Israel) rides on the high places (HS) and suck out of the rock (cela) Jesus, and oil (HS) out of the flint rock (Father). So the poetry similes fit in you look for the similes. Why is the poetry hidden? in parables? Eze 20:49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables? Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. God chose to write poetry to hide truth from humans, unless they wish to ask. Many do not ask of the tutor for guidance. Dave" Threefold manifestation – three modes If I say it – you argue it is wrong – if someone else says it you say NICERob" Three modes? What ? the cela rock and twusr rock and the eagle are not three modes of matter, they are personal functions of love. Making a provider and responder love from one Being, is not true love. You claim the Father is both masculine and feminine. Hmm? A trinity expression of the same substance? A Roman Catholic Edit idea? Sorry no. A family of three independent members each with unique qualities of loving who volenteer for all eternity to function as a unit of oneness. Yes that is love, all three risk to exist under oneness, they choose not to be independent, or sin against this oneness of the unit. That is a love I can relate to. But you role playing idea to express all mannerism of love as three expressions and with bodies too, and mouths speaking of their role playing, when in fact they are the same the same essence, the same substance, a clone of each other, but with different personalities of love? is Eve an expression of Adam? I will play your game and ask Romans 1:20 to help me, what does Creation say? Is Eve an expression of Adam? She was built from the man, so she is a clone of Adam, but her written words "XX" override the other words like Adam has "XY" and her expression of loving is different, unique. So no, she is not an expression of Adam, even though she came from Adam. Where did the words in the DNA come from ? God. Why give the man different words and to the woman different words? To make them love differently. But the words come from a single Author, yes, but the words cause the unique persons. So in the beginning was the words and the words was with the Father, and the words is the Father. Question: where did the words come from? No answer given from Scripture. If we wish to seek answers like this nothing could be ever known. You are asking in my view, where did the Family come from? I don't know. In your view, where did the Father come from? You don't know either. SO neither of us know where the words came from? Scripture tells us the powers are a unit. That means the words can be combined into oneness. Dave" God is not a person – He is so much moreROb" yes Dave do you have a personal Father? how can your right hand expression be personal? Or your left hand expression be personal? Dave" Where is your answer? Are you afraid to answer ? Why do you continue to refuse to answer direct questions?ROb" you have asked this once, here. Answer: NO Jesus Christ is eternal. He is YHWH period. If you look as the 4 letter, there are two hey letters, both Father and Son as masculine love are embedded in this one title. Masculine - meaning showing provider love. Not showing biology. Dave" You are trying to teach that God and Jesus Christ are just biologyRob" No Dave, the Father and Son are not biology. But Jesus is now encapsulated by biology now since taking up biology since Mary's time, he is the bridge between divine and human. A go between. Before that time Jesus was as the Father, not of biology. Notice I use the word "encapsulated" intentionally, since Jesus is fully divine still. Dave" How does biology exist before biology is even createdROb" It doesn't. Dave" Answer the question by Niccodemus - How can a mature biological person enter the womb again and become reborn as an infant in a mangerROb" Easy, through the womb of GOD Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Recognize what is wrong with our biology. It has corrupted DNA and formed DNA epigenetic propensities to sin.
Hence in the compassion-centre (womb) the creative process remake over the damaged DNA and removed the epigenetic problems gradually. Ex 23:29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. 30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land. A poetry metaphor here about dealing with humans invaded with weeds (etc) (like torah using hornets etc) coming into the promised land of sinlessness. The womb process deals with the weeds gradually, little by little, driving them away. Unlike the first biological womb, man is develop in 9 months, the second compassion-centre takes all a life time to redevelop the human with the spirit of the Father. Sometimes the finishing touches happen at the resurrection and the trumpet sound. Notice the biology is not made brand new, it is renewed. Dave" Because God exist in a plurality – Jews have a Duality ROb" Explain this using Jewish quotes? What does the Jew mean by this idea? Dave" They recognize the One true God as a pluralityROb" Jewish quotes for this idea please? Dave" A created being – recreated himself and recreated 1/3rd of all of God’s angels – then recreated all of God’s creation -Rob" Why are you stuck on "recreated" nothing is ever "Recreated" when somebody sins? bogus idea. Please explain your thinking here. So when your daughter rebels against you, she recreates herself? I don't think so. Dave" Sorry Robert – scripture declares that there is only One true God there is no otherROb" explain " not a multiplicity of gods or personalities " can also include " plurality in the Father" show me your Jewish quotes. Dave" Sounds more like religious blasphemy - or at least insulting and slanderous toward GodROb" Can't you read ROmans 1:20 properly Dave. If you assume one being can express both personalities of love, we have a problem as it conflicts with the Creation model. ROmans 1:20 says to look at Creation to explain the godhead. DO you agree ROman 1:20 says this? Dave" Do you know what you believe – because no one reading this does!
AND WHERE ARE YOUR ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS?ROb" Yes where are the answers to my questions? I answer your questions, but you do not answer mine. I want those Jewish quotes showing the plurality of the Father, whatever Jews mean by this word. I searched " Jewish "plurality of the Father" " no results from Jews bother " Jewish plurality of God" 1) Why Do Jews Pray in the Plural? nothing about GOD 2) C. Plural Terminology The Jewish position is that God is talking to His heavenly court. regarding Gen 1:26 "us" Yet an5 type of passage quoted in support of the Christian notion that sees God as a plurality are those which have God speaking of himself in the third person. An example would be Hosea 1:7 where God tells us that He will save the Jewish people through the Lord their God. Christians argue that one entity within the godhead will be using an5 entity to render salvation for the Jewish people – plurality within the godhead! The problem with this interpretation is that we find human beings speaking the same way. Genesis 4:23 and 24 has Lamech speaking to his wives while referring to himself in the third person. David commands his servants (2Samuel 20:6,1Kings 1:33) to take the slaves of their master – a reference to himself. Numbers 24:3 and 4 has Bileam describing himself in the third person. This is obviously a common usage of the Hebrew language and no indication of plurality within the nature of the speaker.jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/council-nation-idolatry-plural-terminology/The JEWS do not acknowledge plurality in GOD. ==========end of all links only 5 listed========= bother. Good luck proving your plurality of GOD idea from Jews. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 18, 2023 1:11:41 GMT -5
DAVE" So answer the question – If God cannot create mediums/spirits/angels – who did? Rob" Of course my God can create a grand medium (HS) ,Sorry Robert the Holy Spirit is NOT a created thing – it is the spirit of God The question to you was – if God cannot create angelic spirits – who did You claim that God CANNOT create sprits - so who did?SO yes, in my view, with elohiym as a unit of three uncaused eternal members, Correct – you have made it perfectly clear – you believe in a Polytheistic Pantheon of Multiple gods You deny scripture Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.But you don't have a Shadday, you have a Father feminine expression role playing. Yep – the Holy Spirit is the femal aspect of God that moves amoung the people – ShekinahDave" You absolutely deny that the archon can do this ROb" Archons do not exist Dave, no Hebrew word like this.– No demons? – no shedim? - no other gods? - No satan? Yet - you teach satan is a god?Dave" OK – You have gone from there is no such thing as mediums/spirits/winds/cherubs/angels To - now you have a Grand medium/spirit/wind cherub = Holy Spirit And you also have as lesser medium/spirit/wind/cherub = angels So who created the lesser medium/spirits/winds/cherubs/angels – you demand that God CANNOT ROb" What? Are you OK? It is your teaching here – what have I misrepresented?1- First you say – God CANNOT create spirit 2- then you say - Rob" Of course my God can create a grand medium (HS) 2- and you say - Rob” no angel could function as a grand medium. And the question to you = who created these angelic spirits – because you say God CANNOT
Dave" You teach that God and angels are biology – now you contradict yourself ROb" O boy. Can't you read? I have never said GOD is biology. ROb" read my post here. Ethereal is just GODly powers flowing out from biology when GOD wishes to. Explain your contradiction Dave" You should not use words you do not understand – just makes you look unintelligent ROb" you should talk, you cannot define ethereal - Ethereal – NOT of matter – NOT corporeal - spiritualQuestion: Can other creatures sin ? Dave's answer is NO. You are a LIER – and I am sick of it Jude – sinning angels = Gen 6 1:4 – held in chains Job is the best book to prove the Satanic Angel opposes God, but Dave ignores this and so do Jews, how sad. Job is the best book to demonstrate that satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord and sometimes asked to do a dirty jobDave" Yep and the sin of Gen 1:2 = ignorance of God / darkness ROB" See, the Hebrew word chata, the Greek word hamartano does not mean "to miss", it means "ignorance of God / darkness" Yes – it does mean to miss Rom 5:13 + Rom 4:15 = it was not counted as sin – you must deny this scripture to protect your false prophet Ellen WhiteRobPP" And when a creature sins, they sin against GOD, hence oppose GOD. Thus any elohiym power is against GOD. Dave" To satisfy Ellen White tradition How does the man Caesar get into heaven to oppose God’s right to rule the universe? ROb" Really Dave, does a creature have to oppose the Father directly to His face in order to oppose the omnipresence Father? Ellen White SDA Great Controversy = two gods in heaven waring over God’s right to rule the universe
ROb PP" So where did the shedim come from, who is the Devil as a creature kind? Where does the Opposer come from? Dave" Rev 12:1 Rev 12:2 During creation – Gen 1:1 Rev 12:3 The BEAST appeared –a great red dragon, Gen 1:2 – Darkness / ignorance Rob replies" Re 12:1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Who is the woman with child Dave, before Gen 1:1, are you saying the child is Jesus? Your mocking of scripture is unwelcome hereRev 12:1-2 – the child of the womb of creation = creation – Gen 1:1 Rev 12:3-4 – the dragon / BEAST = Gen 1:2 Darkness Rev 12:5 – the male child = Christ – God entering His own creation – Gen 1:3 the LIGHT Dave" Rev 12:3 The BEAST appeared –a great red dragon, Rob" The verse does not say the BEAST was created does it? So your beast power already existed.You can have your view Robert – only if you deny precept upon precept, line upon line the rest of scriptureJoh 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. Rev 4:11 Worthy art thou, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power: for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they were, and were created. Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; RobPP Is elohiym a unit or not? Dave does not answer the question, he fumbles with "The Trinity = One God with 3 different modes" ROb" Are you going to answer the question Dave? with yes or no please? You are attempting to trick me – an I will not satisfy you If I say yes – you will say I agree with your polytheistic gods If I say no – you will say I do not understand a Hebrew word (1) Can you show any main steam Christian church that says the trinity refers to the Father as three expressions?(google) What is the controversy with the Nicene Creed? One main controversy of the Nicene Creed is Trinitarianism which is the belief that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same. Some Christian people, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, (and evidently Ellen White and her SDA) reject this statement within the Nicene Creed. Now they preach three persons of the one substance idea, to align with modern traditions. Just to confuse the issues.It has been ONE SUBSTANCE since 325ADSHow me a proper church who agree with you.(google) Most Protestants accept the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. This doctrine states that God is triune; one God manifest in three forms. The Holy Trinity consists of God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit (the presence of God). These are three manifestations of God, not three distinct gods. =============== Dave" The question = Was Jesus born divine (God incarnate as I and all other Christians teach) – or was Jesus a man whose personality was replaced by the Divine when John the Baptist baptized Him ROB" Neither. To imagine any of these ideas is to deny Christ period. Divinity cannot be born, or imparted or given as a gift. So you deny that Jesus Christ is divine – how is that consistent with any Christian teaching?ROb PP"Elohiym is a divine family power that existed from all eternity as a divine family power. Dave" OK – what is the answer to the Nicaean question? ROb" SDA humans have grappled with this idea for years. WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER?Dave" Make up your mind – is God biology or NOT? ROb" Absolutely NOT, God is not of matter, OH – now you say God is etherealROb" read my post here. Ethereal is just GODly powers flowing out from biology when GOD wishes to. Explain your contradictionDave" Where is your answer? Are you afraid to answer ? Why do you continue to refuse to answer direct questions? ROb" Answer: NO Jesus Christ is eternal. He is YHWH period.NO – or Christ is eternal. He is YHWH Explain your answerDave" You are trying to teach that God and Jesus Christ are just biology Rob" No Dave, the Father and Son are not biology. But Jesus is now encapsulated by biology now since taking up biology Notice I use the word "encapsulated" intentionally, since Jesus is fully divine still. I say Jesus Christ = (Jesus)+(Christ) You argue against me in every post Explain yourselfDave" How does biology exist before biology is even created ROb" It doesn't. So how does the Son of man Jesus exist before biology is created Explain yourselfDave" Answer the question by Niccodemus - How can a mature biological person enter the womb again and become reborn as an infant in a manger ROb" Easy, through the womb of GOD Jesus always existed as biology before biology was created then shrank down to a zygot to be born as in infant Why didn't Jesus answer Niccodemus with your explaination?Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things? Correct – how can you be a student of scripture and now know this answer?Dave" Because God exist in a plurality – Jews have a Duality ROb" Explain this using Jewish quotes? What does the Jew mean by this idea? Dave" They recognize the One true God as a plurality ROb" Jewish quotes for this idea please? The JEWS do not acknowledge plurality in GOD. Jews are matriarchal – the Creator = Father = male – on His throne in the 7th heaven 24/7 The Female aspect of God = the Glory of God = The Holy Spirit = the presence of GodJews have always seen God as a dualityjewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6713-glory-of-godSHEKINAH (; lit. "the dwelling"): (Redirected from GLORY OF GOD.)The majestic presence or manifestation of God which has descended to "dwell" among men. Like Memra (= "word"; "logos") and "Yeḳara" (i.e., "Kabod" = "glory"), the term was used by the Rabbis in place of "God" where the anthropomorphic expressions of the Bible were no longer regarded as proper (see Anthropomorphism). The word itself is taken from such passages as speak of God dwelling either in the Tabernacle or among the people of Israel (see Ex. xxv. 8, xxix. 45-46; Num. v. 3, xxxv. 34; I Kings vi. 13; Ezek. xliii. 9; Zech. ii. 14 [A. V. 10]). Occasionally the name of God is spoken of as descending (Deut. xii. 11; xiv. 23; xvi. 6, 11; xxvi. 2; Neh. i. 9). It is especially said that God dwells in Jerusalem (Zech. viii. 3; Ps. cxxxv. 21; I Chron. xxiii. 25), on Mount Zion (Isa. viii. 18; Joel iv. [A. V. iii.] 17, 21; Ps. xv. 1, lxxiv. 2), and in the Temple itself (Ezek. xliii. 7). Allusion is made also to "him that dwelt in the bush" (Deut. xxxiii. 16, ); and it is said that "the glory of the Lord abode upon Mount Sinai" (Ex. xxiv. 16). The term "Shekinah," which is Hebrew, whereas "Memra" and "Yeḳara" are Aramaic, took the place of the latter two in Talmudand Midrash, and thus absorbed the meaning which they have in the Targum, where they almost exclusively occur. Nevertheless the word "Shekinah" occurs most frequently in the Aramaic versions, since they were intended for the people and were actually read to them, and since precautions had therefore to be taken against possible misunderstandings in regard to the conception of God. The word "dwell" in the Hebrew text is accordingly rendered in the Targumim by the phrase "let the Shekinah rest" (e.g., Ex. xxv. 8; xxix. 45, 46; Num. v. 3, xxxv. 34; Deut. xxxii. 10 [R. V. "he compassed him about"]; Ps. lxxiv. 2). Onḳelos translates "Elohim" in Gen. ix. 27 by "Shekinah"; and wherever the person, the dwelling, or the remoteness of God is mentioned, he paraphrases by the same word (Num. xiv. 14, 42; xvi. 3; xxxv. 34; Deut. i. 42, iii. 24, iv. 39, vi. 15, vii. 21, xxiii. 16, xxxi. 17); so too, wherever the Name occurs, he substitutes for it the term "Shekinah" (Deut. xii. 5, 11, 21), and "presence" or "face" is translated the same way (Ex. xxxiii. 14-15; Num. vi. 25; Deut. xxxi. 17-18; see Maybaum, "Anthropomorphien," etc., pp. 52-54). Targ. pseudo-Jonathan and Yerushalmi adopt a like system, as in Ps. xvi. 8, lxxxix. 47, Lam. ii. 19, and Cant. vi. 1 (ib. pp. 64 et seq.). Where the text states that God dwells in the Temple above the cherubim (as in Hab. ii. 20; I Sam. iv. 4; II Sam. vi. 2; I Kings viii. 12, 13; xiv. 21; Ps. lxxiv. 2), or that God has been seen (Isa. vi. 6 et seq.; Ex. iii. 6; Ezek. i. 1; Lev. ix. 4), the Yerushalmi has "Shekinah"; and even where it describes God as abiding in heaven, the same word is used (Isa. xxxiii. 5; Deut. iii. 24, iv. 39). This statement holds true also of allusions to His remoteness or to the hiding of His face (Hos. v. 6; Isa. viii. 17, xlv. 15; Hastings, "Dict. Bible," iv. 488b). The Temple is called the "house of the Shekinah" (Targ. Onḳ. to Deut. xii. 5; Ps. xlix. 15, cviii. 8); and the term likewise occurs in connection with "glory" ("yeḳara"; Ruth ii. 12; Cant. iii. 6, iv. 6, v. 6; Ps. xliv. 25, lxviii. 19, cxv. 16; Jer. xix. 18) and with "holiness" (Cant. i. 10, ii. 2, iii. 2, vi. 1; Ps. lxxiv. 12, lxxxvi. 3).
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Post by rob on Nov 18, 2023 15:21:28 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" Sorry Robert the Holy Spirit id NOT a created thing – it is the spirit of GodRob" Hmm? Ps 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. So in your view, the Ruwach is a Father feminine expression, not created. Explain this verse than. Does this verse mean "angels" is they, or human spirits as "they" ? How do you account for wind than? Ordinary wind, is not a spirit of God is it? Hence my word meaning as "medium" - fits all contexts. When you say the HS is a feminine expression of the Father, is not this expression created?
Dave" Correct – you have made it perfectly clear – you believe in a Polytheistic Pantheon of Multiple gods - You deny scriptureROB" Hmm? Moral Dualism * Gnosticism presents a peculiar combination of the two types of dualism: this world and our bodily existence, being characterized by evil, are the work of a lower, imperfect deity (the "demiurge" or creator), above whom there is a completely distinct, more transcendent and spiritual, good and "true" god. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/dualism Rob" Explain this sentence to me please, your view please... Maimonides’ Conception of God www.myjewishlearning.com/article/maimonides-conception-of-god/At the heart of Maimonides‘ Guide for the Perplexed is his conception of God. When we say that “God is one” every day [in the Sh’ma prayer], what do we mean by that statement? For many Jewish philosophers, Maimonides chief among them, this is the central question of Jewish philosophy. He argues that God is a perfect unity, not admitting of any plurality. God does not have parts, either literally or figuratively–no arms or legs, no back or front, no end or beginning.. But what of all the anthropomorphic terms that we encounter in Jewish sacred texts? What of “Adonai’s rod and staff . . .” or the Creator who “reaches out a hand . . .”? There are thousands of passages like this in the Torah , in the Talmud, in Midrash, and in our liturgy. Maimonides’ response is that these are allegorical passages, designed to ease the transition of the Jewish people from idolatry to monotheism. Even the famous description of man’s creation b’tselem Elohim (in the image of God) is meant metaphorically. God created out of free will and we are granted the ability to reason and a free will of our own, but there is no “family resemblance.” Rob" Explain this Jewish view " not admitting of any plurality" to me please, your view of it... I disagree with my Rabbi here, ; no “family resemblance.”' GOD is love, so there is much resemblance humans can relate to. An unknown shape that loves and is loving, creates a "family resemblance" humans can relate to. --------------------- The literature of the Mishna and the Talmud is known for being chock-full of disagreements and a plurality of opinions. In the first century BCE, two of Judaism’s greatest sages lived in the Land of Israel: Hillel and Shammai. After their deaths, their students began a series of halachic (Jewish legal) and exegetic disputes, and separated into two factions: Beit Hillel (the House of Hillel) and Beit Shammai (the House of Shammai). In the Mishna, in the Ethics of the Fathers, such disputes are described as “for the sake of heaven” and are “destined to endure” (Fathers 5:17).Rob" Jews often disagreed with each other. This is normal human behaviour, many Jewish comments I like, and some I don't like. ============ Dave refutes that elohiym is NOT a unit of persons. Dave:" De 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed <ra'ah>, that thou mightest know <yada`> that the LORD <Y@hovah> he is God <'elohiym>; there is none else <`owd> beside him <bad>. ROb: Notice this is saying YHWH "he is elohiym" that YHWH is only referenced here, no other besides. Dave:" 2Sa 7:22 ROb" Same words and points as in De 4:35 Dave:" 1 Kings 8:60 ROb" Same words and points as in De 4:35 Is this all the evidence you have that YHWH is one of elohiym powers and that there is no other besides? Your verse do not speak of elohiym as yaciyd do they? Maimanoides used yaciyd in his 13 principles of faith, so understood a difference between echad and yaciyd. Dave" Yep – the Holy Spirit is the female aspect of God that moves among the people – ShekinahROb" show me one verse that equates ruwach with Shekinah, in the same verse? Dave" No demons? – no shedim? - no other gods? - No satan? Yet - you teach satan is a god?ROB" Archon Greek equates to Hebrew sar meaning prince. 36 verses Mt 9:34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils. "sar of shedim" Mr 3:22 ¶ And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. "sar of shedim: Joh 3:1 ¶ There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: Nicodemus was a sar of the Jews, in Greek an archon. Not the beast archon word meaning you claim this word means. Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Translated well. Where is your created archon beast thing that tempts humans to sin? No verse in the NT. Dave" It is your teaching here – what have I misrepresented? 1- First you say – God CANNOT create spirit 2- then you say - Rob" Of course my God can create a grand medium (HS) 2- and you say - Rob” no angel could function as a grand medium. And the question to you = who created these angelic spirits – because you say God CANNOT
Rob" everything, mixing your view and my view 1) My God can create a medium function for angels 2) Of course my God can create a grand medium (HS) 3) no angel could function as a grand medium. Dave asks" who created these angelic spirits "Rob replies" created angels as spirits, or mediums? Hmm? In Ps 104 Ps 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; God makes the cherubs as messengers and mediums, both functions. I do not know of any Bible verse where GOD created cherubs as mediums or spirits? Dave" because you say God CANNOTRob" dunno ... no Bible verse either way? Dave" Explain your contradictionRob" Jesus was raised clad in humanity, yet walked through walls? How, His divinity did that. Divinity can over ride limitations due to biology. Dave" You are a LIER – and I am sick of it Jude – sinning angels = Gen 6 1:4 – held in chainsRob" I am most sorry....What? I thought you said angels have no free will and thus cannot sin. Please explain. SO are you saying angels have free will to sin? A change in your belief? Dave " Job is the best book to demonstrate that satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord and sometimes asked to do a dirty jobRob" How is killing Job's children with lightning from heaven, doing service to the Lord? How do you know you are doing service to the Lord? What does torah teach? Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. NOT by doing as GOD asks you to do, or not do, as you claim.Once GOD asked a prophet to cook bread with human dung, and the prophet refused. By their fruits ye shall know them, not always doing as God asks. The Opposer did not do any TOV fruits for GOD. 1) talked back to God over Job's state of salvation " false witness 9"2) killed Job's children " no murder 6" 3) destroyed Job's material wealth " no stealing 7"4) make Job sick with sores " Hmm? no power from health 3"All of these 4 things are evidence of sinning. 1) Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Asking back, not edifying or praising God's proclamation of Job. presenting a false report. 2 & 3) Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, Job 1:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, Does the Opposer have limited powers to also use the medium to do RA upon Job? Yes, such powers is given by God to the Opposer. Does this make the opposer a servant? NO, by your fruits ye shall know them. The Opposer uses God's grant of powers to so RA and harm to humans, something God calls wickedness. 4) Jews write the shedim can inflict poor health on humans. The Opposer is also a functioning shedim, a provider of milk that is false. False teachings, false use of powers from God and false understanding of God, different worship practices to God. This is a breaking of the 3rd principle of Faith, I am your power. The Opposer presents himself as a power, is false. The god of thunder is a good example of all show but no lightning. Only God makes lightning, even though he gives this power to the Opposer only when it suits God to do so. This is not evidence of a servant, to find evidence of a servant, you look at their fruits, what does the creature do with the powers given to them by GOD. The Opposer clearly opposes GOD, making fruits of RA, and SIN. Dave" Yes – it does mean to miss Rome 5:13 + Rom 4:15 = it was not counted as sin Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.Rob" Hmm? Ps 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful: Ps 119:144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: Ps 119:152 ¶ Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever. The ten commandments are faithful promises of love, and as such are of old, from eternity, words of love that come with power, ie based on faith, the process of living in the words of power from God. The word "torah" means many things, apart from the poor translation of "law". De 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. There were two common torah teachings, one was written on stone by GOD, placed in the ark, and one written by Moses placed besides the ark on the outside. The teachings of Moses deals with sin-offering, and other national teachings concerning Israel.The royal torah, is a faithful promise of 10 principles of love about GOD. It is written in the negative during Sinai rather than as it's positive since eternal days in heaven. Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Since breaking faith defines sin, this word "sin" here must be the Hebrew word chataah, rather than chata. Hence there is no sin-offering if there is no Saviour to atone your sinning to. Ro 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, Paul is speaking of Jews using the law as a ladder to get to heaven by being pious. Paul is saying this is not possible, one only gets to heaven by faith. Dave" you must deny this scripture to protect your false prophet Ellen WhiteROb: no need to mock me Dave. RObPP" Really Dave, does a creature have to oppose the Father directly to His face in order to oppose the omnipresence Father?Dave" Ellen White SDA Great Controversy = two gods in heaven waring over God’s right to rule the universeRob" can't answer a simple question? Dave" You mocking of scripture is unwelcome here Rev 12:1-2 – the child of the womb of creation = creation – Gen 1:1 Rev 12:3-4 – the dragon / BEAST = Gen 1:2 Darkness Rev 12:5 – the male child = Christ – God entering His own creation – Gen 1:3 the LIGHTRob" Arn't you adding your own interpretation here? woman with child cannot be "creation" Woman with child, must refer to Jesus? You write so briefly? Can't you talk and explain? ================= Joh 1:3 All things were made through him
Does this mean GOD made sin too? Does this mean GOD made RA creatures too? Rev 4:11...for thou didst create all things,
Since RA creatures do bad things to humans, these RA creatures must be created as bad to begin with? Does the Scripture really teach this idea? Col 1:16 for in him were all things created,
So this means ALL evil creatures were created to be evil by God? Somehow I do not think Jews would agree to any of this... where are you Jewish quotes I asked for? ================ RobPP Is elohiym a unit or not?
Dave does not answer the question, he fumbles with
"The Trinity = One God with 3 different modes"
ROb" Are you going to answer the question Dave? with yes or no please?
Dave" You are attempting to trick me – an I will not satisfy you If I say yes – you will say I agree with your polytheistic gods If I say no – you will say I do not understand a Hebrew wordROB" SO is this another Bible theme you wish to ignore too? =============================== My reading of the Messanic Jews is weird today " Sarah, Abraham’s wife, came up with her own solution for her barrenness—she suggested a surrogate mother—Hagar. In her own efforts, she received Ishmael." Hagar was not a surrogate, she was another wife to Abram? Ge 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. In fact having sex with a woman, is marrying her. What is the difference between adultery and fornication? This surrogate idea is completely wrong here. =================== Many try to link the genealogy of Esau and the Amalekites to the modern enemies of Israel. While this might be accurate to some degree, the truth is that the spirit of Esau and the Amalekites to destroy the heirs of blessing has remained alive among many nations. We saw this hatred in modern pre-state Israel during the expulsion of Jews from England, the tortures of the Spanish Inquisition, and the genocide of six million Jews in the Holocaust. We saw its vibrancy continue as surrounding nations invaded the newly-formed modern Israel in 1948, again in 1967, and most recently with terrorist groups, like Hamas, that vow to claim the land “from the river to the sea” for their own birthright.Rob" Interesting point the Messianics raise. Nevertheless, the Bible promises that in these last days, as the Times of the Gentiles come to a close, all of Israel will be saved. "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all of Israel will be saved." (Romans 11:25–26)Rob" Hmm? The word meaning of "all" is wrong I feel here. =================== Dave" What is the controversy with the Nicene Creed? One main controversy of the Nicene Creed is Trinitarianism which is the belief that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same. Some Christian people, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, (and evidently Ellen White and her SDA) reject this statement within the Nicene Creed.ROB" WOW, prove your claim " Trinitarianism which is the belief that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same" to me? Where is your link? Where is your church who proclaims this? Dave" It has been ONE SUBSTANCE since 325ADROb" Prove this Dave. Where are your links? What do they mean by substance? You hijack a word meaning not there? ================= DavePP" The question = Was Jesus born divine (God incarnate as I and all other Christians teach) Rob replies" To imagine any of these ideas is to deny Christ period. Divinity cannot be born, or imparted or given as a gift.Dave replies" So you deny that Jesus Christ is divine – how is that consistent with any Christian teaching? ROB" you are weird. Surely you do not support the idea that Jesus was born divine... and all other Christians teach this? I said Jesus was already divine before he was born with humanity. Divinity cannot be born, or created, it is a quality you have from eternity, an uncaused cause. Explain your view on this to me, and supply me proof others support you. Dave" OH – now you say God is etherealROB" Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. I repeat, nobody has seen or understood the shape of the HS or the Father. Unknown. SO stop pretending you know when Scripture says we don't know. SO stop using fancy words when Scripture does use words to describe this shape, or presence. God is not ethereal , whatever that word means, really must humans label things we cannot fathom? God is divine, the Hebrew word for this I gave to you already and Jeff says the word means to be hidden. So the shape and powers of GOD is hidden, unknown. Dave" NO – or Christ is eternal. He is YHWH Explain your answerROb" Christ is eternal. He is YHWH
Dave" I say Jesus Christ = (Jesus)+(Christ) You argue against me in every post Explain yourselfROb" Before you write brevity again, explain yourself The question = Was Jesus born divine (God incarnate as I and all other Christians teach)
ROb" nothing cannot be born divine... bogus idea. AN uncaused cause cannot be born or reborn. Jesus is an uncaused cause. However you can add a covering over the divinity, encapsulating the divine with humanity. Your Father masculine expression idea is bogus, is it implies the Father who is divine, can make or born another expression of Himself, becoming also divine. Like I said , explain yourself.Dave" Jesus always existed as biology before biology was created then shrank down to a zygot to be born as in infantROb" did you write this sentence ?, do you support this sentence? Are you saying Jesus was biology from all eternity? Or is the a typo here? Dave" Why didn't Jesus answer Niccodemus with your explaination?ROb" He did. Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. TWO womb processes here, born of flesh is human biology born of HS is about a divine process of developing the child of GOD. Mentioned in Ps 51:10 Dave" Correct – how can you be a student of scripture and now know this answer?ROb" What? Must you always write riddles? Dave" Jews have always seen God as a duality
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6713-glory-of-god SHEKINAH (; lit. "the dwelling"): (Redirected from GLORY OF GOD.) ROB" I read your posted mumbo jumbo, I asked for a Jewish quote written by Jews, not some scholar writing for Jews. What do Jews say? Like the Rambam or Maimonides or some Rabbi that is accepted by all Jews. I tried to find a Jewish commentary, gave up. Not there. Too hard to find. So I ask you, you support Jews don't you? Why don't you have all your quotes already to support your theory, or is your theory entirely established by Dave only? ========== " This is obviously a common usage of the Hebrew language and no indication of plurality within the nature of the speaker." jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/council-nation-idolatry-plural-terminology/ Here is one, Dave does not comment about. Already posted. No comment. ROb" Yes where are the answers to my questions? I answer your questions, but you do not answer mine.
DavePP " A created being – recreated himself and recreated 1/3rd of all of God’s angels – then recreated all of God’s creation - Rob" Why are you stuck on "recreated" nothing is ever "Recreated" when somebody sins? bogus idea. Please explain your thinking here. Already posted. No comment. Dave" Because God exist in a plurality – Jews have a DualityROb" Explain this using Jewish quotes? No comment from Dave, no Jewish quotes, I really doubt such Jewish quotes and commentaries exist. ============= Dave do you have a personal Father? how can your right hand expression be personal? Or your left hand expression be personal? No comment from Dave, ignored question.=========== Is there any place where all three are referenced as one context? Pr 30:4 Job 40:1 No comment from Dave, ignored by Dave.================= The thing we must understand is the three uncaused causes came into existence all at once in this way for a reason. Love requires three entities for loving to function properly. No comment from Dave, ignored by Dave.It is a Bible fact love exists as two Hebrew words. ================= (1) Can you show any main steam Christian church that says the trinity refers to the Father as three expressions?
The Catholic church used to mean this I think, a star fish with three arms, three expressions of the Father ?, now they seem to teach three persons of the godhead?
You hate Catholic edit so much, how come you support Catholic Edit now?
I mean what do Catholic really believe is really impossible to say?
But when I was 16 they taught the three arms of the one substance idea.
Now they preach three persons of the one substance idea, to align with modern traditions. Just to confuse the issues.
(2) Show me a Jew who would agree with you Dave. (3) SHow me a proper church who agree with you.ROb" wrote 10 sentences, Dave replies with brevity. I take it there are no churches that speak of the Father as three expressions of modes of Himself. I went too a lot of trouble to find one, Oneness Pentecostals, but Dave does not agree with them. They see the Father as three expressions of the same Father. SO much for Rob trying really hard to help Dave. OK so where is your church who agrees with you Dave? Maybe you don't have one? =============== DAVE" (google) What is the controversy with the Nicene Creed?Rob" Where exactly? what link? Nothing from Dave. I will do some research and get back to you "The Nicene Creed is a comprehensive expression of the Christian faith, adopted by the Council of Nicea in AD 32512. The controversy surrounding the creed mostly took place with the addition of “and the Son”1. The actual development of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed has been the subject of scholarly dispute3. Some evangelical Christians reject the Creed, not for its content, but simply because it is not found in the Bible2. The controversy threatened the political stability of the Roman Empire, and Emperor Constantine convened and presided over the Council of Nicaea, which formulated the Nicene Creed4." www.nailtothedoor.com/why-i-dont-accept-the-nicene-creed/I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.Where does Scripture describe the Father "Eloah" like this? Ge 49:25 Even by the God <'el> of thy father <'ab>, who shall help <`azar> thee; and by <'eth> the Almighty <Shadday>, 2Co 6:18 And <kai> will be <esomai> <eis> a Father <pater> unto you <humin>, and <kai> ye <humeis> shall be <esomai> my <moi> sons <huios> <eis> and <kai> daughters <thugater>, saith <lego> the Lord <kurios> Almighty <pantokrator>. Sorry, I do not support the Nicene Creed, first sentence even, so the rest is completely bogus too. Some truth and some error, is all error in my view, a precept and traditon of men. Torah says to stay away from. The Eloah and the Shadday are not essences of the one Father. My first sentence of the Creed would read I support in cardinally one elohiym power in heaven as the true elohiym power, that is a unit of persons, who is the Most High, referenced as a Provider, termed the Eloah as an old Name; or under a new Name as the Heavenly Father.
The Most High has His function "eloah" in the Name of "Eloahiym" where the Father's power flows. This word is plural because it denotes the oneness of loving functions of love assigned to personalities within the Godhead. Now Dave answer my questions about your Solitary Father. How does a Father all solitary, show love that shares something that is also divine, like the Father is. A solitary Being cannot do this, hence "to give love", to "support faith" and to "share in communion within divinity" cannot be answered by having a Single Divine Being. You refuse to acknowledge Romans 1:2o where Creation is the key to understanding the invisible qualities of the Godhead. but you refuse to support the meaning of this verse. Adam and Eve, and their marriage, their way to come into being tell us much about elohiym as a unit. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 18, 2023 19:25:04 GMT -5
Dave" Sorry Robert the Holy Spirit is NOT a created thing – it is the spirit of God Rob" Hmm? Ps 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. So in your view, the Ruwach is a Father feminine expression, not created. Explain this verse than. Yep – everything in this passage was created when God sent forth His SpiritWhen you say the HS is a feminine expression of the Father, is not this expression created?Dave" Correct – you have made it perfectly clear – you believe in a Polytheistic Pantheon of Multiple gods You deny scripture ROB" Hmm? Moral Dualism *Gnosticism presents a peculiar combination of the two types of dualism: this world and our bodily existence, being characterized by evil, are the work of a lower, imperfect deity (the "demiurge" or creator), above whom there is a completely distinct, more transcendent and spiritual, good and "true" god. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/dualismRob" Explain this sentence to me please, your view... So you quote ancient Gnosticism to me – I’ll return the favorMormon’s say Jesus and satan are twin brothers – why do you believe this? Dave - " Explain this sentence to me please, your view...============ Dave refutes that elohiym is NOT a unit of persons.Dave" Yep – the Holy Spirit is the female aspect of God that moves among the people – Shekinah ROb" show me one verse that equates ruwach with Shekinah, in the same verse?ROB" I read you mumbo jumbo, I asked for a Jewish quote, not some scholar writing for Jews. I counted close to 50 scripture references – your laziness is obviousROb" Archons do not exist Dave,Dave" No demons? – no shedim? - no other gods? - No satan? Yet - you teach satan is a god?1- First you say – God CANNOT create spirit 2- then you say - Rob" Of course my God can create a grand medium (HS) 2- and you say - Rob” no angel could function as a grand medium. And the question to you = who created these angelic spirits – because you say God CANNOT Rob" everything, mixing your view and my view 1) My God can create a medium function for angels Answer the question! How many times must you me asked?
Is your angle medium an independent being – or just your Holy SpiritYou refuse to answer the question 2) Of course my God can create a grand medium (HS) First you teach a pantheon of equal gods – that all co-exist Now you say one of your gods created the other god Please explain your consistent contradictions3) no angel could function as a grand medium. Not sure what you mean – because you say the angles are just the HSDave asks" who created these angelic spirits "Rob replies" created angels as spirits, or mediums? Hmm? Stop stalling and answer the question!I do not know of any Bible verse where GOD created cherubs as mediums or spirits? Dave" because you say God CANNOT Rob" dunno no Bible verse either way? Dave" Explain your contradiction If you are ill-equiped to provide an honest answer How arrogant are you to claim that all mainstream Christianity is errorAre you deliberately trying to tear down the Christian faith? Or are you boldly broadcasting your ignorance to the world out of pride?---------------------------------------- Dave " Job is the best book to demonstrate that satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord and sometimes asked to do a dirty job Rob" How is killing Job's children with lightning from heaven, doing service to the Lord? How do you know you are doing service to the Lord? What does torah teach? How is killing all the first born of Egypt doing service to the Lord? Or do you teach it as God opposing Himself as a sinner?
How is performing genocide upon the 7 tribes of Amorire doing service to the Lord Or do you teach it that God commanded Israel to sin
Luk 19:26 (KJV – Red Letter version) For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Dave " Job is the best book to demonstrate that satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord and sometimes asked to do a dirty job When God called his angels together – satan came running to God – reporting in – YES SIR When God told Hebrew satan to test Job – Hebrew satan said YES SIR When God set limits for Hebrew satan – Hebrew satan said YES SIR Prove that Hebrew satan disobeyed God in any way How can Hebrew satan oppose God – when he is busy serving and obeying God? It is obvious to everyone all through history – until youDave" Yes – it does mean to miss Rome 5:13 + Rom 4:15 = it was not counted as sin Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Rob" Hmm? Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Since breaking faith defines sin, this word "sin" here must be the Hebrew word chataah, rather than chata. Hence there is no sin-offering if there is no Saviour to atone your sinning to. OK back to this – another unanswered question by Robert Why do you teach that SIN = is an offering to the Lord Dave" Why won’t you return the courtesy and answer question asked of you? Can’t you defend you own words? ROb" I can, what question did you clearly ask?Dave" Now explain why you call SIN a sacrifice to the Lord ROb" still no understand you? Of course you don’t because I have quoted you back to you twice - three times - four times -five times – six times – seven times – NOW EIGHT TIMESRom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: You have presented this as - by one man’s sin offering - sin entered into the world, I have asked you to explain before – why do you consider sin a sacrifice to god I say sin is a sacrifice to the BEAST if anything You give your praise to the wrong godDave" You mocking of scripture is unwelcome here Rev 12:1-2 – the child of the womb of creation = creation – Gen 1:1 Rev 12:3-4 – the dragon / BEAST = Gen 1:2 Darkness Rev 12:5 – the male child = Christ – God entering His own creation – Gen 1:3 the LIGHT Rob" Arn't you adding your own interpretation here? woman with child cannot be "creation" Woman with child, must refer to Jesus? You write so briefly? Can't you talk and explain? Or are you afraid MY comment – only you have the authority to rewrite the order of creation Those is us who accept scripture accept the order of creation – because it – just like Rev 12 – is the word of God================= Joh 1:3 All things were made through him Does this mean GOD made sin too?Sin is a choice – and God created humanity with both (yester ra) and (yester tov) so humanity has the choice And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.
He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.Does this mean GOD made RA creatures too? Rev 4:11...for thou didst create all things, Since RA creatures do bad things to humans, these RA creatures must be created as bad to begin with? Does the Scripture really teach this idea? Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, So this means ALL evil creatures were created to be evil by God? Somehow I do not think Jews would agree to any of this... Instead – the Jew would not agree with all your Catholic Satanic Evil talk If the shedin exist – then God made them But they are no more than obstacles in our pathjewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13523-shedimDEMONOLOGY. (Redirected from SHEDIM.)If you would have bothered to take the time Messianic Jewish Rabbi Cahan present an entire sermon about being face to face with the principalities You keep asking what would a messianic Jew say But when I offer it up – you do not seem to be interested – you do not have to learn or know – just keep repeating that your Ellen White is a Prophet ================ RobPP Is elohiym a unit or not? Dave does not answer the question, he fumbles with "The Trinity = One God with 3 different modes" ROb" Are you going to answer the question Dave? with yes or no please? Dave" You are attempting to trick me – an I will not satisfy you If I say yes – you will say I agree with your polytheistic gods If I say no – you will say I do not understand a Hebrew word ROB" SO is this another Bible theme you wish to ignore too? I am just ignoring you and your game play=============================== We saw its vibrancy continue as surrounding nations invaded the newly-formed modern Israel in 1948, again in 1967, and most recently with terrorist groups, like Hamas, that vow to claim the land “from the river to the sea” for their own birthright. Rob" Interesting point the Messanics raise. Nevertheless, the Bible promises that in these last days, as the Times of the Gentiles come to a close, all of Israel will be saved. NOT – your presentation of Ellen White You absolute refuse to take a stand if 1948 Israel was prophetic Instead taught us of Ellen White's spiritual it all happening in the sky over Rome=================== Dave" What is the controversy with the Nicene Creed? One main controversy of the Nicene Creed is Trinitarianism which is the belief that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same. Some Christian people, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, (and evidently Ellen White and her SDA) reject this statement within the Nicene Creed. Where is your church who proclaims this?www.quora.com/Apart-from-Catholics-which-denomination-believes-in-the-Holy-TrinityAlmost all of them.The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, and also the Assyrian Churches, all teach the Trinity. All the major Protestant groups teach the Trinity: Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinist churches (reformed, Presbyterian), Baptists, Methodists, most Pentecostal and Charismatic churches and fellowships. The Trinity is considered mainstream Christianity, whether Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant. The non-Trinitiarian churches are all groups that arose in modern times: Unitarians, “Jehovah's Witnesses and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, (and evidently Ellen White and her SDA)” Non-Trinitarian groups are considered to be fringe groups, generally arising from a Protestant milieu. Interesting – The FIRST GREAT REVIVIAL = an out pouring of charismatic faith – all believe in the TrinityThe SECOND GREAT REVIVIAL = non-Christian cults that deny the Trinity – each with a replacement prophet Dave" It has been ONE SUBSTANCE since 325AD ROb" Prove this Dave. Where are your links?You told us you studied this page = en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_CreedNicean Creed wording as of 325AD = English - consubstantial with the Father;ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα, οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, truly God - not made – “homoiósis” with the FatherG3669 - “homoiósis” From which we get the word homogeneous truly God - not made – homogeneous with the FatherThe footnote from the same page you said you studiedThe affirmation that Jesus Christ is "consubstantial with the Father" appears in the Nicene Creed.[4] Greek was the language in which the Nicene Creed was originally enunciated. The word used was Greek: ὁμοούσιος[5] (homoousios) and means "of the same substance.================= God is not ethereal , whatever that word means, Then you teach God is corporeal – made of matter / biologyDave" NO – or Christ is eternal. He is YHWH Explain your answer ROb" Christ is eternal. He is YHWHFINALLY YOU ADMIT THE TRUTHAll your nonsense about Jesus and God MUST be two different gods because they talk together is errorYES – God is Christ – Yes Christ = God – and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God The only thing that makes them singular and different is the MODE in which they interact with man If God reaches out to you invisibly – It is His Spirit / The Holy Spirit If God reaches out to you as a man = Christ – and after 6BC = Jesus Christ Dave" I say Jesus Christ = (Jesus)+(Christ) You argue against me in every post Explain yourself ROb" Before you write brevity again, explain yourself The question = Was Jesus born divine (God incarnate as I and all other Christians teach) ROb" nothing cannot be born divine... bogus idea. So Jesus was NOT divine when he was born – so when did He become divine? This is the Nicaean Question Either Jesus was born as divinity encased in humanity as you say – Jesus with Christ as the inner man (Jesus animal Son of man from Mary)+( God incarnate – Christ – Son of God) Or Jesus was born as a man – and became divine laterAnd the argument is – Jesus became divine when the Dove descended upon Him You answer neither – so what is your third option?If God = Christ = biology – then a grown man had to shrink down to be implanted into Mary This means Jesus Christ is 100% God and 0% man If God is Spirit – as scripture teaches – then the HS overshadowed Mary – and the Power of God touched her to = Jesus 100% man + Christ 100% divine Mary supplied the human body – God provided the spirit/soulGen 1:1 the First Gen 1:3 the Second Gen 1:26 the Third Gen 2:7 – the FOURTH Christological reference in Hebrew Scripture========== Dave do you have a personal Father? - Yep the Creator how can your right hand expression be personal? – Yep Jesus Christ died for meOr your left hand expression be personal? – Yep the Holy Spirit speak to my spirit – the promised Comforter=========== The thing we must understand is the three uncaused causes came into existence all at once in this way for a reason. Love requires three entities for loving to function properly. No comment from Dave, ignored by Dave. I have commented on this teaching of your many times Christianity teaches GRACE================= Now Dave answer my questions about your Solitary Father. How does a Father all solitary, show love that shares something that is also divine, like the Father is. Christianity teaches GRACE – unrequited love = God loves His creation even if creation doesn’t love God in return
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Post by rob on Nov 19, 2023 5:46:04 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" I counted close to 50 scripture references – your laziness is obviousROb" I am not lazy, the verses say nothing, you discuss nothing and raise nothing, do I have to do all the writing myself? The word "Shekinah" is not found in the Bible, but there are allusions to it in Isaiah 60:2, Matthew 17:5, Luke 2:9, and Romans 9:41. The Shekinah is described in Matthew 17 as the "transfiguration" of Jesus, where He was suddenly covered in glory, and His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light2. Christ ascended to heaven in the glory cloud2. Other Bible verses that may be related to the Shekinah include Leviticus 16:2, Exodus 40:35, and Genesis 9:273.I look for Jewish commentary, unlike Dave's mumbo jumbo --------And found only one Jewish commentary--------- Who Is Shechinah, And What Does She Want from My Life? Exile of the Shechinah and descent of the soul By Tzvi Freeman
Shechinah שכינה (also spelled Shekhinah) is derived from the word shochen שכן, “to dwell within.” The Shechinah is G‑d as G‑d is dwelling within. Sometimes we translate Shechinah as “The Divine Presence.” The word Shechinah is feminine, and so when we refer to G‑d as the Shechinah, we say “She.” Of course, we’re still referring to the same One G‑d, just in a different modality.ROB" So Jews see GOD with female and male modes. What Jews call the duality of the Most High. After all, you were probably wondering why we insist on calling G‑d “He.” We’re not talking about a being limited by any form—certainly not a body that could be identified as male or female.
But consider this: As soon as we just In that duality, we take the female role, so that He calls us She and we call Him He.begin to refer to G‑d, we have already compromised His oneness. Because we have already created a duality—there is us and there is G‑d. In that duality, we take the female role, so that He calls us She and we call Him He. Then we do whatever we can to mend the schism between us and return to one. The word Shechinah is feminine, and so when we refer to G‑d as the Shechinah, we say “She.” Of course, we’re still referring to the same One G‑d, just in a different modality.After all, you were probably wondering why we insist on calling G‑d “He.” We’re not talking about a being limited by any form—certainly not a body that could be identified as male or female.
But consider this: As soon as we just In that duality, we take the female role, so that He calls us She and we call Him He.begin to refer to G‑d, we have already compromised His oneness. Because we have already created a duality—there is us and there is G‑d. In that duality, we take the female role, so that He calls us She and we call Him He. Then we do whatever we can to mend the schism between us and return to one.ROB" Why introduce a weird term "to dwell", when the ruwach already means the "Spirit of God." Isn't the HS the Shechinah ? The soul that breathes within us is a fractal of the Shechinah, and the journey of that soul mirrors the drama of the Shechinah, as one cell of a hologram contains the whole.ROB" I thought this is the HS? Why give the soul over to a new word meaning that is not even found in the torah? ------------------- Angels are singular and unchanging in their essences, Steinsaltz writes, and can be either good or evil (demons), the latter the product of human beings doing the opposite of a mitzvah — harboring evil thoughts or committing acts of wickedness. Like good angels, evil angels also act in a dual fashion — bringing evil from the spiritual to the material world by inspiring sin or causing suffering and punishment, while also receiving energy from the misdeeds of human beings. “To be sure, were the world to root out all evil completely, then as a matter of course the subversive angels would disappear, since they exist as permanent parasites living on man,” Steinsaltz writes. “But as long as man chooses evil, he supports and nurtures whole worlds and mansions of evil, all of them drawing upon the same human sickness of soul.” www.myjewishlearning.com/article/angels/ROB" What rubbish this is, so the angels become bad because of humans sinning. Remove human sinning and the bad angel shedim will also go away. Weird. Dave" Is your angle medium an independent being – or just your Holy Spirit You refuse to answer the questionROb: You ask riddles, why must I answer your questions, when you do not answer mine? Angels can function as mediums, yes, and they are independent. The Holy Spirit is a grand medium, who allows RA and SIN to exist in our world without the Father immediately causing such things to cease to exist. You would disagree with this claim, Your Father can create RA and even entropy intentionally in His creation. Dave" Now you say one of your gods created the other god Please explain your consistent contradictionsRob" I never said such a thing? Are you OK? I said there are from eternal, three uncaused causes. These came all at once, before time, space and matter. All of these beings are personal. You do not understand this word, saying your Father expressions are personal. A Father showing duality with male and female expressions, cannot be personal. All of these beings are divine. This includes Jesus, who is also divine. Divinity can never be given away as a gift, or born. This statement of mine contradicts Jews ideas, who say the sparks of the soul are also divine. They cannot be, for only God is divine. Dave" Stop stalling and answer the question! If you are ill-equiped to provide an honest answer
How arrogant are you to claim that all mainstream Christianity is error Are you deliberately trying to tear down the Christian faith?
Or are you boldly broadcasting your ignorance to the world out of pride?Rob" Dave, there is not a single verse with speaks of where GOD created cherubs as mediums or spirits? Ps 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; Here the word is asah, meaning to do. God has cherubims doing medium functions. This means the cherubs take messengers through space to earth to present to a human. That is what a medium function is. Now you show me where God creates angels as spirits? Dave" How is killing all the first born of Egypt doing service to the Lord?ROb: " Isn't God allowed to judge those He keeps alive on His grace? Dave" How is performing genocide upon the 7 tribes of Amorire doing service to the Lord Or do you teach it that God commanded Israel to sinRob" I suspect the stiff necks wanted to take the land themselves, for their is a clue God alone would do it for Israel.... Ex 23:23 For mine "messenger" shall go before thee, Ex 23:27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, Ex 23:28 And I will send hornets before thee, My question to you is, why didn't GOD do as He said He would? Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.Rob" Parables have one moral truth, not meant to hang off every meaning. for example, the mustard is not the smallest of herb seeds. The parables are for the people, not for GOD teaching truth. Dave" Prove that Hebrew satan disobeyed God in any wayROb" I did in my last post, proof you do not read my posts, you glaze over what interests only Dave. ----------- The Opposer did not do any TOV fruits for GOD.
1) talked back to God over Job's state of salvation "false witness 9" 2) killed Job's children "no murder 6" 3) destroyed Job's material wealth "no stealing 7" 4) make Job sick with sores "Hmm? no power from health 3"
All of these 4 things are evidence of sinning.
1) Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Asking back, not edifying or praising God's proclamation of Job. presenting a false report.
2 & 3) Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, Job 1:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness,
Does the Opposer have limited powers to also use the medium to do RA upon Job? Yes, such powers is given by God to the Opposer. Does this make the opposer a servant? NO, by your fruits ye shall know them. The Opposer uses God's grant of powers to so RA and harm to humans, something God calls wickedness.
4) Jews write the shedim can inflict poor health on humans. The Opposer is also a functioning shedim, a provider of milk that is false. False teachings, false use of powers from God and false understanding of God, different worship practices to God. This is a breaking of the 3rd principle of Faith, I am your power. The Opposer presents himself as a power, is false.
The god of thunder is a good example of all show but no lightning. Only God makes lightning, even though he gives this power to the Opposer only when it suits God to do so. This is not evidence of a servant, to find evidence of a servant, you look at their fruits, what does the creature do with the powers given to them by GOD.
The Opposer clearly opposes GOD, making fruits of RA, and SIN.----------- You judge if a creature is a servant of GOD by their fruits, not by their so called doing as God asks them to do or not do. Another example of servant like this is Balaam, who is very wicked, but according to Dave, is a servant of the Lord. Yeah right. Dave" OK back to this – another unanswered question by Robert Why do you teach that SIN = is an offering to the LordROb:" Try asking this in a different way, because I do not follow you, and 8 times now you quote the same brevity all the time. My task to you is, write how a sinner gets forgiven in the OT times, when he sins.
Dave" God created humanity with both (yester ra) and (yester tov) so humanity has the choiceROb" NOT any Hebrew words showing this idea. Invented by Jews based on two words they remove from two verses. Why don't they consider the Hebrew aven instead? It is a neutral meaning, a recording of your doings, either good or bad, Hence the sinless man has no inherited propensities to do evil, unlike the Jewish notion of yester RA. God does not normally do RA (Lam 3:38) so this includes putting yester RA into a sinless human. Dave quotes GNostic writings: He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appearRob" Such an idea is not found in the torah Dave. Somebody's writing is falsehood. Dave" If the shedin exist – then God made themROb" IN this Post, Jews say the humans make the angels become shedim. So all angels are impartial to doing good or bad, only human behaviour changes the angels functions. This is all rubbish, a reading of Ezekiel 28 tells us that cherubs sin because they have iniquity themselves in their heart. Nothing to do with humans. Dave" Messianic Jewish Rabbi Cahan present an entire sermon about being face to face with the principalitiesROB" SHow me a link and I will listen to some of it. Dave" But when I offer it up – you do not seem to be interested ROb" I listened to Tabor, what good was he, quoting Scripture verses the whole time through? Show me a Jew who talks about satanas, archons and the three expressions of the Father, and you would have my attention. Dave" I am just ignoring you and your game playROb" Actually in my studies trying to understand you, I think you are all alone, I doubt there is anybody quite like you in your theology. You didn't even like Oneness Pentecostalism. You say you attend Messanic assemblies sometimes, do they really support a Father as three expressions? I mean they view the Father Most HIgh as dualism, male and female. That is not even two expressions, that is modality. One expression with two modes. Dave" You absolute refuse to take a stand if 1948 Israel was propheticROb" SO you condemn me for not being interested? I do not understand all things of prophecy Dave. Dave" The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, and also the Assyrian Churches, all teach the Trinity.ROb" SO you are telling me that Trinity is the idea of the Father in three expressions? One Being with three expressions of the same being. And this is trinity? I don't think so....not even close. Dave" consubstantial with the Father;ROb" Meaning? Dave" homoiósis” with the FatherROb" Meaning? Dave" homoousios) and means "of the same substanceROB" fancy words Dave. Let's keep it simple shall we, The Father is divine. Jesus is divine. And the Holy Spirit is divine. All three personalities of the Godhead are divine. Always been divine. The only word meaning you don't like so far is the term " three personalities", you prefer to make the word " three expressions". Hence your Father cannot be personal. Something that expresses dualism as gender male, maleness love and gender female, femaleness love, in one being, cannot make these two love words work as a unit. A solitary being cannot function as a unit. The two love words function within the same being, cannot operate as a unit of harmony because they exist in the being. There is no risk between provider love and responder love, if one being is both modes of love. There is no sharing of love between provider love and responder if that is one being with both modes of love. No risk No sharing. Also there is no collector love, attributed to another agent of love who functions as home-head, allowing both provider love and responder love, to fill up (create idea) the home-head with the love of both provider and responder. So "one and only son" whom the Provider gives as a supreme act of giving. So all your fancy words are just confused word meaning when divine will cover all the big words nicely. RobPP" ROb" Christ is eternal. He is YHWHDave" FINALLY YOU ADMIT THE TRUTHROb" I have always presented this. Dave" So Jesus was NOT divine when he was born – so when did He become divine? This is the Nicaean QuestionROB" so what is your third option? Dave asks, Jesus was fully divine as YHWH, He entered the compassion-centre of the SHadday, who using the Grand Medium, the HS, allows the Father's powers to flow via the HS into Mary, thus encapsulating the divinity of Christ with humanity. Once YHWH is encapsulated with humanity, it is not undone, for the law requires for mischief, life for life, so the sacrificed life is for eternity forward, thus divinity in forever encapsulated by humanity. Hence YHWH is both divine and also biological with human body. ------------ Dave do you have a personal Father? - Yep the Creator how can your right hand expression be personal? – Yep Jesus Christ died for me Or your left hand expression be personal? – Yep the Holy Spirit speak to my spirit – the promised Comforter ROb: I am sorry Dave, you do not have a personal Father. Your Father cannot sin, (no one to witness of the Father's words, hence cannot show faith) sin is to break faith; no risk, no sharing, no one and only gift of love to give. See my detailed comments above. Dave" Christianity teaches GRACEROb" Hmm? Dave" unrequited love = God loves His creation even if creation doesn’t love God in returnROb" IN Hebrew there is two love words, and "unrequited" is not one of them. See my studies on love spiritualsprings.org/ss-1518.htmShalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 19, 2023 7:34:10 GMT -5
ROB" So Jews see GOD with female and male modes. What Jews call the duality of the Most High. DUH – how many time have I said this?ROB" Why introduce a weird term "to dwell", when the ruwach already means the "Spirit of God." Isn't the HS the Shechinah ? It is foundational to Judaism – Sukkot – God tabernacles with manAngels are singular and unchanging in their essences, Steinsaltz writes, and can be either good or evil (demons), the latter the product of human beings doing the opposite of a mitzvah — harboring evil thoughts or committing acts of wickedness. Like good angels, evil angels also act in a dual fashion — bringing evil from the spiritual to the material world by inspiring sin or causing suffering and punishment, while also receiving energy from the misdeeds of human beings. “To be sure, were the world to root out all evil completely, then as a matter of course the subversive angels would disappear, since they exist as permanent parasites living on man,” Steinsaltz writes. “But as long as man chooses evil, he supports and nurtures whole worlds and mansions of evil, all of them drawing upon the same human sickness of soul.” www.myjewishlearning.com/article/angels/ROB" What rubbish this is, so the angels become bad because of humans sinning. Remove human sinning and the bad angel shedim will also go away. Weird.I have never heard it put this way before - but sure undersatand The archon are not gods - If a demon stood up today and said - I am a god follow me - the people would just laugh at him because man does not believe in other gods anymore If an alien from planet X landed here - and said I am your god - the masses would reject him because man does not believe in other gods anymore But in each case - there are some humans that would bow to themWhy - because we all hunger for God - and if we do not know HIM - we will fall for any godThe very definition of the OT - the 1% that knows God vrs the 99% that do not - bowing to false gods Where did the god Caesar get his power – men honored him as a god Where did Emperor Ito get his power – form the people Baal – where did he get his power – from the people The Jews do not have an evil satan god – they give him no power You call satan a god – you support satan – you honor satan Where does Catholic satan get his power – from Roman Christendom Jew do not give Catholic satan power Islam does not give Catholic satan power Atheist do not give Catholic satan power Only Ellen White elevates satan to godhood – two opposing gods in heaven You and your satanic cult actively promotes satan – gives him all the glory of Rom 1:19-20 and you have spent the last four years of your liife preaching satan as a god here - satan boy------------------------------------------------ Dave" Is your angle medium an independent being – or just your Holy Spirit You refuse to answer the question Angels can function as mediums, yes, and they are independent.Finally – you admit it Why have you spent the last three weeks denying that God can create spirit?-------------------------------------------------------- Dave" Now you say one of your gods created the other god Please explain your consistent contradictions Rob" I never said such a thing? Are you OK?Rob" Dave, there is not a single verse with speaks of where GOD created cherubs as mediums or spirits? Ps 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; Here the word is asah, meaning to do. H6213 – עָשָׂה - ‛âśâh A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application: Now you show me where God creates angels as spirits?This is why your Robert method fails you You stumble over words because you take them out of contextPs 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; Is one of several rhetorical questions – answer by the other verse you didn’t understandPsa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: Now you show me where God creates angels as spirits?If it exist God created it – precept upon precept, line upon line Why do you want / need / even suggest a second creator?--------------------------------------------------- Dave" OK back to this – another unanswered question by Robert Why do you teach that SIN = is an offering to the Lord ROb:" Try asking this in a different way, because I do not follow you, and 8 times now you quote the same brevity all the time. You rewrite scripture and change words – but you refuse to tell me why – or by what authority Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through a sin offeringDave quotes GNostic writings: He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear Rob" Such an idea is not found in the torah Dave. Somebody's writing is falsehood. Gen 3:14 Adonai Elohim said to the serpent, “Because you did this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and above every animal of the field. On your belly will you go, and dust will you eat all the days of your life. Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.” Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly increase your pain from conception to labor. In pain will you give birth to children. Your desire will be toward your husband, yet he must rule over you.” Gen 3:17 Then to the man He said, “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate of the tree which I commanded you, saying, ‘You must not eat of it’: Cursed is the ground because of you—with pain will you eat of it all the days of your life. Gen 3:18 Thorns and thistles will sprout for you. You will eat the plants of the field, Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow will you eat food, until you return to the ground, since from it were you taken. For you are dust, and to dust will you return.” Gen 3:20 Now Adam named his wife Eve because she was the mother of all the living. Gen 3:21 Adonai Elohim made Adam and his wife tunics of skin and He clothed them. Gen 3:22 Then Adonai Elohim said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. So now, in case he stretches out his hand and takes also from the Tree of Life and eats and lives forever,” Gen 3:23 Adonai Elohim sent him away from the Garden of Eden, to work the ground from which he had been taken. Gen 3:24 And He expelled the man; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He had cheruvim dwell along, with the whirling sword of flame, to guard the way to the Tree of Life. Who created the contestants – God did Who created the playing field – God did Who established the CONTEST – God did Who made all the rules – God did Who judges the CONTEST – God does
But you deny this is a scriptural teaching? Why do you deny scripture – because it does not make your satan a god
----------------------------------- Dave" Messianic Jewish Rabbi Cahan present an entire sermon about being face to face with the principalities ROB" SHow me a link and I will listen to some of it. Already did –even sent you a personal invite Do you believe in coincidences?Messianic Jewish Rabbi sermon about the archon / principalities - Oct 28, 2023 Messianic Jews and the Archon Dave" I am just ignoring you and your game play ROb" Actually in my studies trying to understand you, You are trying to trick me – and I will not playIf I say yes – you will say I agree with your teaching of multiple gods If I say no – you will say I do not understand a Hebrew word You know my views of the Trinity already – I keep repeating it until you understand my view You say you attend Messanic assemblies – I have twice – looked and sounded much like any local Christian corner Church But I was not there during Holidays do they really support a Father as three expressions? I HAVE NEVER MET ANOTHER CHRISTIAN ANYWHERE IN 45 YEARS THAT DENIES THE TRINITYDo we all understand it equally – no Many average Christians could not explain it to you with confidence Many use water+ice+steam - all same substance but 3 formsI use a coin - coin+heads+tails - 3 forms but only two I can experience - heads or tailsBut none of us consider God a Polytheistic Pantheon of multiple individual godsI mean they view the Father Most HIgh as dualism, male and female. That is not even two expressions, that is modality. One expression with two modes.Yep + Jesus Christ as God incarnate = the duality becomes a Trinity1st dimension = a singularity that you cannot locate but is omnipotent and omnicient - Father 2nd dimension = the omnipresent base matrix / ether of the ultiverse - omnipresent - Spirit Mother 3rd dimension = the 1st D expressed through the 2nd D to = the 3D - Christ - God entering His own creation - Gen 1:3 The LIGHT Man CANNOT imagine the 1st D Man is sustained and ministered to by the 2nd D - Spirit Man is saved by the 3D - the image of the 1st D - Christ E = mc2 God -bara- invisible, incorruptable, ethereal, spiritual, heaven ----and---- visible , corruptable, corporel, physical, earth The Trinity is seen everywhere - Rom 1:19-20 ------------------------------------- Dave" You absolute refuse to take a stand if 1948 Israel was prophetic ROb" SO you condemn me for not being interested? Scripture is unfolding right in front of you – and you are not interested – I believe youThe Father is divine. Jesus is divine. And the Holy Spirit is divine. All three personalities of the Godhead are divine. The only word meaning you don't like so far is the term "three personalities", you prefer to make the word " three expressions".Correct – you deliberately try to corrupt the meaning of ONE GODThere is only one personality – GOD’s If you experience God (invisible) – it is the Spirit of God – same personality – same person If you experience the image of God – it is Christ and Jesus Christ after 6BC – same person – same personality ---------------------------------------------- RobPP" ROb" Christ is eternal. He is YHWH Dave" FINALLY YOU ADMIT THE TRUTH ROb" I have always presented this. LIER – you argued for years – Jesus Christ cannot be God because they talk to one another LIER – you years you argued that your god cannot be in two places at the same time LIER – you tried to teach that your satan killed Christ/God even to the lake of Fire
Dave" So Jesus was NOT divine when he was born – so when did He become divine? This is the Nicaean Question ROB" so what is your third option? Dave asks, Jesus was fully divine as YHWH, He entered the compassion-centre of the SHadday, who using the Grand Medium, the HS, allows the Father's powers to flow via the HS into Mary, thus encapsulating the divinity of Christ with humanity. Once YHWH is encapsulated with humanity, it is not undone, for the law requires for mischief, life for life, so the sacrificed life is for eternity forward, thus divinity in forever encapsulated by humanity. Hence YHWH is both divine and also biological with human body. 1- First question – if you agree – why spend so much time arguing the opposite 2- You have argued against me for 4 years How is this any different that my teaching of God incarnate? Mary provides the body Jesus – the spirit within = God Finally – some of your bull shit is falling away 3- what you have just discribed = Gen 2:7Jesus is formed from the dust of the ground (biology - Mary) - and God breathed into Him (Himself / Spirit / Christ) - and Jesus Christ became a HUMAN BEING Where did he come from - God Why is did He come here - to witness Where did He go when He died - back to heaven with God the Father Man is made in His image OT - NT His image = Christ From God we came - to Jer 1:5 here in our souljourn - and to God we will return Basic Judaism 101 = ChristologyJudaism is NOT a different religion - The NT Gospel = Messanic Judaism Roman Christendom IS DIFFERENT to Judaism or Messanic Judaism ------------ Dave" Christianity teaches GRACE ROb" Hmm? Why don’t you?
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Post by rob on Nov 19, 2023 15:37:06 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Have to go to work today. Wife went to school presentation night, so tired from travelling so she took Sunday off , we have experienced the third time it has rained this year, totalling for the year, a massive 35mm. 15mm, 10 mm and so far another 10mm. Like we are in a drought. The corn (paise the Lord ) is ready for harvest, we ate one last night, it great. I plan to give a tithe away to my work colleagues at work. Many things wrong with money , the root of all evil, as the torah says. It was a lot of sweat and stress growing the corn, first rats ate 150 seeds of it, than beetles, also corn grubs, etc. Now take you time in answering this post, and enjoy your week. Dave" DUH – how many time have I said this? Rob" Personally I find this discovery weird. Dave" It is foundational to Judaism – Sukkot – God tabernacles with manRob" Again you didn't answer my question. Jews already have the HS, so why invent a term not even in the Bible properly.... Dave" I have never heard it put this way before - but sure undersatandRob" Would you support anything a Jew said, like Adam having sex with Lilith the demon for 130 years. Really some Jewish material is just absurd. Dave" The Jews do not have an evil satan god – they give him no powerROb" Many Jews worshipped a queen of heaven, Dave, so yes of course they worshipped the Opposer in many marketed gods - why does the Opposer have so many different marketed gods? to hide his face and make it easier to deceive. Dave" and you have spent the last four years of your liife preaching satan as a god here ROB" Well you don't read the Torah do you? Like the Jews who hate the idea of "many gods" it spoils their idea of "one god" - just another example that the Opposer has invaded even the Jewish faith. Dave" Finally – you admit it Why have you spent the last three weeks denying that God can create spirit? YOu are asking me if the Father can create a "spirit-spark"? The answer is NO, the Scriptures do not speak of this idea at all.ROb" OH so this is a trap on your part, you are a arum person Dave, mocking me, only to get me to suit your theories. I didn't say GOD can create angels as spirits. There is no such verse. All I said is an angel is independent, and with free will able to do the loving that God wants from them. But some also with free will can sin. Why you even agree that angels have free will and thus can sin. SO why the stubborn resisting over angels that sin? And you insistence for some creature that was never created, while sinning angels are banished to earth. Locked up in chains of darkness, wow, these chains must be really strong, how darkness is like steel? Really Dave, must you refute and ignore Scriptures you don't like. God does not create even the grand medium as a spirit. Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. It's a parallel and no mention of create here Asah, to do. The Shadday does the function of the grand medium. Dave" Rob - Of course my God can create a grand medium (HS)ROb" Sorry if you misapply the context. I was referring to the Shadday forming the ruwach, now I see the term is asah, not bara. Must you try to trip me up over and over with brevity and forced questions you have not answered? You function as an Opposer rather than as a Friend? We are supposed to be discovering truth, not mocking each other. Dave" This is why your Robert method fails you You stumble over words because you take them out of contextDave" testify to an example than Dave, or try my method, your method is to reject the verses that the bulk disagree with. Faith to you is mental assent, not to me. You reject one verse, the most important one. Dave" Ps 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; Is one of several rhetorical questions – answer by the other verse you didn’t understand Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created:ROB now who takes verses out of context? Dave does What about the verses in between? Who is " thy" in this verse Dave? So whom is "thy medium" which is created? Must refer to God's medium? SO what is carried from God across space into something else, as the function medium implies, that is created? Well let's see shall we.... Rob's method, look up all the verses, here and there across all the torah. Verses must include "thy spirit and created" Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Here. The term "thy medium" "created" refers to the creating of character in sinners who ask for this, inside the development of the sinner, inside the womb of the Shadday, this request is a medium function, the Father's character is carried by the medium across space into the Shadday, into the sinner, giving you a character just like the father. His love becomes your love. Why does the character of love from GOD have to be created in humans that sin? Because it not natural for humans to love, we are steeped with corrupt hearts and not natural for the flesh to love at all. SO it requires radical heart surgery, a creative process. Dave is taking the passage out of context, making the term refer to angels who are created with spirits, is bogus. Dave" If it exist God created it – precept upon precept, line upon lineROb" DO you even understand "precept upon precept, line upon line" it means to study all the Bible for the same terms under study. Look up every verse that speaks "thy spirit" 1Ki 21:5 ¶ But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said unto him, Why is "thy spirit" so sad, 2Ki 2:9 ¶ And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. Ne 9:30 Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: Job 15:13 That thou turnest thy spirit against God, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth? Ps 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. Ps 139:7 ¶ Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? Ps 143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; Ec 7:9 Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: 2Ti 4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Now look over all the lines and precepts and what is the term "thy spirit created" mean? It refers to the loving character of the Father created in humans (but only if you want this) Some like Jezebel do not ask, and get a different spirit instead. Dave" Why do you want / need / even suggest a second creator?ROb" I don't. You fail to understand eloihiym is a unit. Without a unit, you cannot have 1) risk 2) sharing 3) love in a one and only, to give 4) faith Now wonder your god is lettering you down...you have to seek Gnostic books even....you have the wrong god. Dave" Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through a sin offering
Ro 5:12 Wherefore <dia> <touto>, as <hosper> by <dia> one <heis> man <anthropos> sin <hamartia> entered <eiserchomai> into <eis> the world <kosmos>, and <kai> death <thanatos> by <dia> sin <hamartia>; and <kai> so <houto> death <thanatos> passed <dierchomai> upon <eis> all <pas> men <anthropos>, for <epi> that <hos> all <pas> have sinned <hamartano>: Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin-offered entered into the world, and death by sin-offering; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: What is sin-offering? The process of Jesus agreeing by grace to save a sinner from his sinning, because the condition of mankind when Adam sinned is unfair. An angel could sin and repent, without sin-offering to a Saviour required. God would welcome them back. But a human has a problem when humans sin, God cannot welcome them back because the DNA is corrupted by a spoiler spoiling the DNA inside. This makes it unfair for humans seeking salvation, because they are trapped in a prison house. Who did this mischief? The mischief maker did. God wanted to see what would happen if the Opposer tricked Adam into sinning, what would the Opposer do when the humans fell into sinning. Since Sinning happened once after Creation, no unfallen world could witness the affect, so GOD created a second Creation over the earth to all these kings to watch what would the Opposer do after tricking humans to sin. Did the Opposer leave the humans also with a propensity to sin on their own? No the Opposer did more to the humans than that? Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, The Opposer spoiled the DNA inside the womb of Eve, causing the future children to be trapped in a prison house. This is unfair for a human to receive this "sinning condition" as the damage is inherited. Now this is why Jesus had to die, life for life the law says for mischief. A sin-offering is the process of supporting the faithful idea that a Saviour would atone for your sins, and take away this mischief, this corruption, so you are free to follow Jesus and free to walk into heaven sinless, because all problems have been resolved by Jesus death and Jesus living, all granted to you by faith and His grace. I asked you for your ideas, again you ignore me, I suppose you wish to mock this theme of "chataah". Dave" Who created the contestants – God didROb" Created contestants? Are you OK Dave? What does the Scriptures say? Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. You agree angels can sin. Here is an angel sinning. What does GOD do with this sinning angel? Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: The sinning angel filled all heaven with violence. Not some 6 second squirmish as you claim, twisting Greek words no doubt, but I use Hebrew words here. Takes time to fill the heavens with violence. Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Who are these kings who watch? Other SOns of ELohiym, the princes of other unfallen worlds, these kings watch. What ground is the sinning angel laid to? Earth. What happens to earth? It becomes void, formless and dark? Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Look the sinning angel spoils the sanctaries of GOD, using tricks and sin. God brings the Opposer to ashes on earth, in the sight of the kings who watch. Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. And so the sinning problem will never appear again. " created the contestants"NO Dave. Evil did not come from GOD, nor did GOD create the contestants to be evil. Dave" But you deny this is a scriptural teaching?Rob" I do not deny this Genesis account. You cannot explain when a sining creature sins, they become a false elohym power, that opposes GOD. Any sinner who sins opposes God, by defintion. You agreed with me angels can sin. What is your problem than? Dave" But none of us consider God a Polytheistic Pantheon of multiple individual godsROb" I see. "The Trinity is a Christian doctrine that God is one being made up of three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit12. These three persons are co-equal and co-eternal in essence and communion1. The Trinity is one of the central Christian affirmations about God2. The doctrine was first introduced by Tertullian in the 2nd century and received wide acceptance in the 4th and 5th centuries1." A three expression is not co-equal and co-eternal in essence and communion, so your premise is WRONG. DO you wish to see actual CHurch Creeds? Catholics The Trinity is a mystery of the Catholic faith that describes the nature of God as one, but experienced in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit1. The Trinity reveals the essence of God’s inner life as love, and shows us how God loves us and wants us to know him2. The Trinity is a significant doctrine because it helps us understand who God is and how we can relate to him. SDA The Seventh-day Adventist Church believes in the doctrine of the Trinity, which is the three-in-one Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit12345. The church believes that all three members of the Godhead are fully God, that they have different functions but are united in purpose1. The three divine Persons have existed for all eternity in a profound unity, or oneness of nature, purpose, and character3. Pentecostals Orthodox Pentecostal Christianity, such as the Assemblies of God, affirms the doctrine of the Trinity1. They believe that God is one and that the Father, Son, who is Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit are each God1. Pentecostals who believe in the Trinity base their beliefs entirely on biblical teachings from the Old Testament to the New Testament and depict God as a triune being2. These teachings help make sense of the Bible as God’s word2. ROB" Hmm? along Dave's ideas? Baptist Baptists believe in the Trinity, which means they believe that there is one God who exists in three persons: the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit, each of whom is fully God12. The Trinity is so central to Baptist theology that a person cannot be a Baptist if they don’t believe in the Trinity1. The biblical formula of baptism is the Trinitarian formula of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit3. The salvation of every sinner is completed by all three persons of the Trinity3. Mehtodist Methodist beliefs on the holy Trinity are based on the doctrine of one God who exists in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit12. Methodists believe that God is the creator, sovereign, and loving ruler of the universe2. Methodists also believe that the Son became a man in Jesus of Nazareth, who is fully God and fully human1. Jews It is an all-too-common assumption that the concept of the Trinity is a purely Christian idea. But the idea of a God being a three-in-one unity actually has its roots in foundational Judaism and in the Hebrew Scriptures. Even the concept of the Holy Spirit, the Ruach Ha-kodesh, originates in the Hebrew Scriptures—as early as Genesis 1.
Yet, modern Judaism has reached an overwhelming consensus that one cannot believe in the Trinity and be Jewish. Rabbi Stanley Greenberg argues that “Hebrew Scriptures are clear and unequivocal on the oneness of God.… Monotheism, an uncompromising belief in one God, is the hallmark of the Hebrew Bible, the unwavering affirmation of Judaism and the unshakable faith of the Jew.” He continues, “Under no circumstances can a concept of a plurality of the Godhead or a trinity of the Godhead ever be based upon the Hebrew Bible.” Even if what Christians believe is monotheistic, it does not seem to be monotheistic enough to qualify as true Jewishness.
But if we are to examine this line of thinking, it is best to begin with the very source of Jewish theology and the only means of testing it—the Hebrew Scriptures. We should be open to exploring and understanding the nuances of the Jewish roots of the Trinity because many Jewish people do believe in the Trinity! If we go back to the Scriptures, the case is clear, and this article will walk you through that case. Our understanding hinges on the Hebrew language, so to the Hebrew first we shall turn. It is generally agreed that Elohim is a plural noun having the masculine plural ending “im.” Elohim is used to describe God in Genesis 1:1: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” It is also used in Exodus 20:3: “You shall have no other gods [Elohim] before me,” and in Deuteronomy 13:2: “Let us go after other gods [Elohim].” Elohim is the word that is used of the one true God as well as for the many false gods. While the use of the plural Elohim does not prove a Tri-unity, it certainly opens the door to a doctrine of plurality in the Godhead.
Most Hebrew scholars recognize that the word Elohim, as it stands by itself, is a plural noun. But they deny that it allows for any plurality in the Godhead whatsoever, arguing that when “Elohim” is used of the true God, it is followed by a singular verb; when it is used of false gods, it is followed by a plural verb:
But, in fact, the verb used in the opening verse of Genesis is “bara” which means “he created”—singular. One need not be too profound a student of Hebrew to understand that the opening verse of Genesis clearly speaks of a singular God. (Greenberg)
The point made, of course, is true because the Bible does teach that God is only one God, and therefore, the general pattern is to have the plural noun followed by the singular verb when it speaks of the one true God. However, there are places where the word is used of the true God and yet is followed by a plural verb:
Genesis 20:13: “And when God [Elohim] caused me to wander [literally: “They” caused me to wander] from my father’s house.
Genesis 35:7: “There God [Elohim] had revealed himself to him.” [Literally: “They” appeared unto him.]
2 Samuel 7:23: “God [Elohim] went.”” [Literally: “They” went.]
Psalm 58:11: “Surely there is a God [Elohim] who judges.” [Literally: “They” judge.]
What does this mean for our understanding of the oneness of God?
If the plural form Elohim was the only form available for a reference to God, then conceivably the argument might be that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures had no other alternative but to use the word Elohim for both the one true God and the false gods. However, the singular form for Elohim (Eloah) appears elsewhere (e.g., Deuteronomy 32:15–17 and Habakkuk 3:3). This singular form could have easily been used consistently, yet it is only used 250 times, while the plural form is used 2,500 times. The use of the plural form again turns the argument in favor of plurality in the Godhead.
When God speaks of Himself, He uses the plural pronoun. In Genesis 1:26: “Then God [Elohim] said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.’ He could hardly have made reference to angels since man was created in the image of God and not of angels. The Midrash Rabbah on Genesis recognizes the weight of this passage:
Rabbi Samuel Bar Hanman in the name of Rabbi Jonathan said, that at the time when Moses wrote the Torah, writing a portion of it daily, when he came to this verse which says, “And Elohim said, let us make man in our image after our likeness,” Moses said, “Master of the universe, why do you give herewith an excuse to the sectarians (who believe in the Tri-unity of God)?” God answered Moses, “You write and whoever wants to err, let him err.”1
The Midrash Rabbah tries to avoid the problem and fails to adequately answer why God refers to Himself in the plural. The use of the plural pronoun appears frequently, and avoiding it or explaining it away is insufficient:
Genesis 3:22: “Then the LORD God [YHVH Elohim] said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of us.’”
Genesis 11:7: “Come, let us go down and there confuse their language.”
Isaiah 6:8: “I heard the voice of the Lord saying, ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’” This would appear contradictory with the singular “I” and the plural “us” except as viewed as a plurality (us) in a unity (I).
God seems to refer to Himself in the plural, so where does that leave us as we try to understand Him? The authors of Scripture have attempted to deal with His plurality, and their exploration is useful for our understanding. God not only speaks of Himself in the plural, but many authors of Scripture also refer to God’s plurality. Out of the Hebrew, we find that nouns and adjectives describing God are in the plural form:
Ecclesiastes 12:1: “Remember now your Creator.” [Literally: creators.]
Psalm 149:2: “Let Israel rejoice in their Maker.” [Literally: makers.]
Joshua 24:19: “holy God” [Literally: holy Gods.]
Isaiah 54:5: “For your Maker is your husband.” [Literally: makers, husbands.]
While Jewish tradition has commonly rejected the idea of the Trinity, there is no doubt that Judaism portrays a plurality of God’s existence. All the evidence so far rests firmly on the Hebrew language of the Scriptures. If we are to base our theology on Scriptures alone, we have to say that they affirm God’s unity, while at the same time they tend towards the concept of a compound unity. There is room for plurality in the Godhead. The resounding and profound words throughout all generations: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!” (Deuteronomy 6:4). This has always been Israel’s great confession. This verse is used more than any other to affirm the fact that God is one and to deny the possibility of plurality in the Godhead.
The word echad does not mean an ‘absolute one’ but a ‘compound one.’ On the one hand, it should be noted that the very words “our God” are in the plural in the Hebrew text and literally mean “our Gods.” However, the main argument lies in the word “one,” which is a Hebrew word, echad. A glance through the Hebrew text where the word is used elsewhere can quickly show that the word echad does not mean an “absolute one” but a “compound one.”
For instance, in Genesis 1:5, the combination of evening and morning comprise one (echad) day. In Genesis 2:24, a man and a woman come together in marriage and the two “shall become one [echad] flesh.” In Ezra 2:64, we are told that the whole assembly was as one (echad), though of course, it was composed of numerous people. Ezekiel 37:17 provides a rather striking example where two sticks are combined to become one (echad). The use of the word echad in Scripture shows it to be a compound unity and not an absolute unity.
There is a Hebrew word that does mean an absolute unity and that is the word yachid, which is found in many Scripture passages,2 with the emphasis being on the meaning of “only.” If Moses intended to teach God’s absolute oneness instead of as a compound unity, yachid would have been a far more appropriate word. In fact, Maimonides noted the strength of “yachid” and chose to use that word in his “Thirteen Articles of Faith” in place of echad. However, Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shema) does not use “yachid” in reference to God.
There is sufficient evidence for the plurality of God. But can we come to a concrete understanding of the Jewish view of the Trinity? The case for God’s plurality becomes stronger when we encounter the term Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, such as in Psalm 45:6–7:
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness; you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.
The first Elohim is being addressed, and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God’s God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.
And Hosea 1:7:
I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the LORD their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.
The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of YHVH, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.
Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God: “Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven” (Genesis 19:24). YHVH number one is on earth raining sulfur and fire from a second YHVH who is in heaven.
Furthermore, Zechariah 2:8–9:
For thus says the LORD of Hosts, after his glory sent me to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye: “Behold, I will shake my hand over them, and they shall become plunder for those who served them. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me.”
So, again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.
A second example is Zechariah 2:8-9:
For thus says the LORD of Hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he that touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.”
Again, we have one YHVH sending another YHVH to perform a specific task.
The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton3 and wrote:
Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.4
The evidence for at least a dual God in the Hebrew Scriptures is clear, but what is Judaism’s response to a triune God?
more jewsforjesus.org/learn/the-trinity-based-on-the-hebrew-scriptures#Are%20Judaism%20and%20The%20Trinity%20Reconcilable?ROB" SO Dave, show me any church that views trinity as the Father expressing Himself as the Father in three modes, the Father HS, and the Father JC. DO you understand what the term "persons" means? Dave" The Trinity is seen everywhere - Rom 1:19-20ROb" Where is your trinity in Creation Dave? I see the trinity in Adam and Eve and future children. Let me guess, Eve was an expression of Adam, so your wife is just and expression of Dave? Dave" LIER – you argued for years – Jesus Christ cannot be God because they talk to one anotherROb" Yes the Jesus-YHWH talked to the Father-YHWH, as the term faith requires. The term YHWH is a title, a function of He who exist. YH is the Father secure hey, and the WH is the active hands of Jesus hey. DO Jews see hey as a person? No, Jeff Benner does though. Dave" 1- First question – if you agree – why spend so much time arguing the oppositeROb" What? a Father that is all alone? NO Dave, I cann't agree. 1) no risk 2) no share 3) no one and only to give away 4) no faith These things a solitary being cannot do on their own. An expression of self cannot do these either. ================== Two things of you this week Dave 1) Find a church creed that teaches the Father expresses himself in three modes of himself, as Jesus the right hand and HS the left hand. Oneness Pentecostal might support this idea. DO you have any others? 2) Jews who agree with your Father three expressions idea. What I have found so far is Jews do not consider any things less that one Father showing dualism. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Nov 19, 2023 16:55:42 GMT -5
ROB" So Jews see GOD with female and male modes. What Jews call the duality of the Most High. DUH – how many time have I said this?
ROB" Why introduce a weird term "to dwell", when the ruwach already means the "Spirit of God." Isn't the HS the Shechinah ? It is foundational to Judaism – Sukkot – God tabernacles with man Rob" Personally I find this discovery weird. Dave" It is foundational to Judaism – Sukkot – God tabernacles with man Rob" Again you didn't answer my question. Jews already have the HS, so why invent a term not even in the Bible properly....
Again – the name = the function The Spirit of God is ubiquitous – omnipresent – on the moon – behind the sun – among the stars Yet – there are times when God Tabernacles with man – a personal one on one event
In the NT Jesus Christ promised to send the Comforter to teach us from within – (to dwell within) - a personal one on one event Why does the NT use a new word - why not just say Holy Spirit?
Dave" The Jews do not have an evil satan god – they give him no power ROb" Many Jews worshipped a queen of heaven, Perfect – my point exactly – who makes her the Queen = man does
Dave" Finally – you admit it Why have you spent the last three weeks denying that God can create spirit? YOu are asking me if the Father can create a "spirit-spark"? The answer is NO, the Scriptures do not speak of this idea at all. ROb" OH so this is a trap on your part,
Not a trap – the question is – can God create spirit as an independent entity You began by saying god CANNOT create spirits as separate beings Now you finally agree to the truth that God can and does create spirit beings If you feel trapped – it is by your own contradictions
Why you even agree that angels have free will and thus can sin. Sorry Robert – angels do not have Free Will ----------------------------------------
SO why the stubborn resisting over angels that sin? And you insistence for some creature that was never created Locked up in chains of darkness, wow, these chains must be really strong, Really Dave, must you refute and ignore Scriptures you don't like. One of us deny scripture – that is true Gen 6:1-4 is the story of the Watchers od Enoch and the Nephilim Jude tell us they are locked away in prison held in chains You deny Gen 6:1-4 – therefore Jude must be talking about all your satanic
Rob" I do not deny this Genesis account. You do not teach it as archon – you teach it is about other men Were you lying then or now?
Dave" Rob - Of course my God can create a grand medium (HS) ROb" Sorry if you misapply the context. I was referring to the Shadday forming the ruwach, You were talking about the HS creating the HS? Or you have more than 3 gods in your pantheon of gods
Dave" This is why your Robert method fails you You stumble over words because you take them out of context Dave" Ps 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; Is one of several rhetorical questions – answer by the other verse you didn’t understand Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: ROB now who takes verses out of context? Dave does What about the verses in between? Who is "thy" in this verse Dave? So whom is "thy medium" which is created? Must refer to God's medium? SO what is carried from God across space into something else, as the function medium implies, that is created? Well let's see shall we.... Rob's method, look up all the verses, here and there across all the torah. Verses must include "thy spirit and created" Dave is taking the passage out of context, making the term refer to angels who are created with spirits, is bogus.
Learn to translate – does not say thy spirit was created it says through the spirit they were created ----------------------------
Dave" Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through a sin offering Ro 5:12 Wherefore <dia> <touto>, as <hosper> by <dia> one <heis> man <anthropos> sin <hamartia> entered <eiserchomai> into <eis> the world <kosmos>, and <kai> death <thanatos> by <dia> sin <hamartia>; and <kai> so <houto> death <thanatos> passed <dierchomai> upon <eis> all <pas> men <anthropos>, for <epi> that <hos> all <pas> have sinned <hamartano>: Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin-offered entered into the world, and death by sin-offering; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: What is sin-offering? The process of Jesus agreeing by grace to save a sinner from his sinning, because the conditon of mankind when Adam sinned is unfair.
A sin offering is a sacrifice to the Lord as a Korbats – Your desire to rewrite scripture is REJECTED -----------------------------------
Dave" Who created the contestants – God did ROb" Created contestants? Are you OK Dave? What does the Scriptures say?
Who created man? God did Gen 1:26 Who created the archon? God did Col 1:16 Who created everything – God did
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Dave" But you deny this is a scriptural teaching? Correct - Absolutely deny tht Ezk 28 has anything to do with the BEAST of Revelation This verse is talking about man
Eze 28:19 All who know you among the people will be appalled at you. You have become a horror and will be nothing forever.’” Tell me the name of the King of Tyre – I had to look it up You worship satan as a god
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Post by rob on Nov 23, 2023 5:31:24 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave" Why does the NT use a new word - why not just say Holy Spirit?
Rob" Jesus promised to send another comforter, brand new function of the HS for the Son. Why is this new function required? Because functions of Jesus as our human high priest in the heavenly sanctuary, means Jesus cannot function at the same time as one with omnipresent collecting the prayers and responding to the love needs of many. So the omnipresent of Jesus is functioned by the HS instead, just as the Father's presence is via the HS as well. The Jews invent a term not even found in Scripture, meaning to dwell, to create a functional term for the HS that is not really needed. And you say this is OK, citing this verse as an example? I don't think so. Dave" the question is – can God create spirit as an independent entity
Rob" Sure, GOD can create whatever He wants, though there are a few exceptions.You are posing the idea that GOD can impart a part of the Father Himself in some functional being, termed a " spark-spirit" that is given to humans making them "you". While this idea sounds nice, there is no evidence for this in the Bible, nor is the idea even required. We already have GOD in a relationship to matter, allowing the biology to function as a soul, that makes you "you". Why the need for your "spirit" idea? What functions do you require, that God is not already supplying? You mock my Bible theory saying we are just HS beings. This is ridiculous, first the HS is a medium, and a medium does not take an active functional role in supplying the Father's power to us. Maybe you could mock, saying we are just beings with the Father in us? But again a medium changes the properties of the Father as a source, so they are unique to each receiver. So what exactly is your problem? Must you like Jews deceive people saying when we die the first death, the "spirit lives" ? What exactly to they mean by "spirit"? Sure the "ruwach" lives, it returns to GOD. Do Jews say the "soul" lives upon the first death? Dave" Sorry Robert – angels do not have Free Will
ROb" But you said many angels sinned (Gen 6) so surely they must have free will to sin? Please explain, and write lots of sentences, and use the Bible verses too. Can you sin without reasoning with the
free will? No in my Bible definitions, See Isa 1:18. Dave" Jude tell us they are locked away in prison held in chains
ROb" Define how a chain of darkness, means the sinning angels are locked away in some prison inside the earth? Use BIble verses to define this prison place as a place reserved only for sinning angels? I do not know of any such verse. ============end of Dave comments to Rob's post===== ROb" I don't. You fail to understand eloihiym is a unit.
Without a unit, you cannot have
1) risk
2) sharing
3) love in a one and only, to give
4) faith
========No comment from Dave=========== How can one being on their own, show risk as a divine quality of the Father? He can't. You require another independent uuncaused cause to funcion as a unit by choice, This show eternal risk, love requires risk, because the other does not have to obey, but forever chooses to obey as a function of love. A being on their own at a divine level, cannot demonstrate love, and the risk of love and being loved. Your father cannot share . Making an expression of Himself and sharing himself with Himself, must be very boring to the Father. Playing around with created matter creatures would also be unfulfilling too. A Father would get extremely lonely. A one and only independent uncaused cause to love and give away, cannot be done as an expression. How is this giving away supreme risk. If the expression sins? How can the expression sin, when the mind is located in the Father? And if it did sin, just make another expression. And another. Not really a supreme "one and only son" is this? It is just role playing. Faith requires two beings, one to trust the other. So your Father on his own cannot show faith, so why are the moral law commandments faithful? Makes a mockery of your one being view. ============== Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
The Opposer spoiled the DNA inside the womb of Eve, causing the future children to be trapped in a prison house. This is unfair for a human to receive this "sinning condition" as the damage is inherited. Now this is why Jesus had to die, life for life the law says for mischief.
==========NO comment from Dave. Does the Scripture speak of humans trapped in a prison house? Ps 142:7 Bring <yatsa'> my soul <nephesh> out of prison <macger>, Dave, what is the Greek word linked to which Hebrew word? Jude 1:6 chains <desmon> under <hupo> darkness <zophos> Is the Hebrew word " macger" the same word meaning as " desmon"? Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. Darkness is a simile of sin, so what exactly is the prison house Isa 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; Jesus mission was to unbound humans trapped in a prison. Does this mean only sin, or something else? 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; You see this as Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison as dead Jesus talking to dead humans, But I see this as a living Jesus talking to living humans who are spirits trapped in a prison house, all the days we are alive. hoshanarabbah.org/blog/2019/05/20/the-spirits-in-prison-explained/he “Spirits in Prison” Explained Posted on 05/20/2019 by Natan Lawrence 1 Peter 3:19–22, Preached to the spirits in prison. Did Yeshua preach to the spirits in prison while he was dead? No. Verse 18 states that Yeshua was put to death, was then quickened or made alive by the Spirit (i.e. was resurrected from the grave), and then, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. ROB" Jewish idea that the "spirits" are alive in some purgatory place, is not supported in the Scriptures. From the context of this passage, we learn that Yeshua preached to the angelic spirits who rebelled in Noah’s time after he was resurrected from the dead. In this place of restraint, which Peter refers to as tartaroo (2 Pet 2:4 cp. Jude 6) and which in the ancient near east world referred to a subterranean or underworld prison, these evil spirits await Elohim’s final judgment (Jude 6).
Likely, Yeshua went there to inform these evil spirits that despite his resurrections and offering of salvation for human sinners, there is no redemption for these fallen demonic spirits because of the evil deeds they committed as recorded in Gen 6:2–4. Interestingly, the ancient Book of 1 Enoch gives us some additional background information that these same demons appealed their sentence in times past, but to no avail (1 Enoch 6:4; 13:12–3; 14:4–5).
This passage in First Peter ends in verse 22 with Yeshua taking his position victoriously at the right hand of Elohim above angels, principalities and powers. In other words, Yeshua has overcome all the rebellious plans and machinations of Satan and his evil demonic spirits to subvert Elohim’s plan of redemption for man. The end result of YHVH’s plan of salvation for man will be the glorification and exaltation of man at Yeshua’s second coming to a position above the angelic realm (Heb 2:6–7; 1 Cor 6:3), which is something that Satan attempted to prevent through his attempted subversion of the human race and the thwarting of Elohim’s plan of salvation of man as recorded in Gen 6:2–4. By Yeshua’s resurrection and his victory over sin, death, hell, the grave and Satan, he has defeated all the enemy’s plans. Through our acceptance of and identification with Yeshua’s death, burial and resurrection through the spiritual ritual of baptism for the remission of sins (1 Pet 3:21), we have access to this glorious victory over evil and the potential to become the glorified children of Elohim
ROB" SO Dave follows Jewish ideas like this. Why does this Rabbi picture Satan as an enemy of Jesus? -------------------- Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin What is Paul speaking about the law of sin ? Why is it associated with the flesh? Is this a reference to the biology in our bodies, subjected us humans to a prison house (the law of sin) that demands our death? Comment by Clarke "Sin and corruption have a final triumph; and conscience and reason are taken prisoners, laid in fetters, and sold for slaves. " =========A study of Nemeniah Gordon: part 3===== Gordon" Elohim who is termed "He". Nor was man created in the image of a group of multiple individuals but only in the single image of Elohim which is described as "His image", that is, the single image of the Creator. Were Elohim a multiplicity the verse would have to have read, "And (they) Elohim created man in their image, in the image of Elohim they created them" again once conclude must we says Scripture what not is this Since .that Elohim is a singular individual. (cope and paste not working well) ROB" My understanding of reading Jeff Benner, is in the presence of gender male and gender female, only the gender male is referenced, so the elohiym (both masculine and feminine - whatever that means?) is referencing the creation as "he made" not "they made". My understanding of Jeff Benner is when "he" is referenced in a group of "boy and girls" the girls cannot be assumed NOT to be included. Our Jewish scholar is not making this Hebrew weirdness known to English speaking readers. Gordon" And (he) YHWH Elohim said". Were YHWH Elohim a plurality the verse would have to have read, "And (they) YHWH Elohim said".
ROB" My understanding of reading Jeff Benner, is in the presence of gender male and gender female, only the gender male is referenced, so the elohiym (both masculine and feminine - whatever that means?) is referencing the creation as "he said" not "they said". Gordon a Jew knows these rules in Hebrew, why doesn't he discuss this to the reader? The Royal We. Gordon" I f YHWH Elohim is a single individual, why does He speak about "we", "our", and "us"? How can any singular speaker refer to himself as "we"? There is a linguistic phenomenon in which a speaker refers to himself in the plural. In many cultures and civilizations kings refer to themselves in the first person plural as "we". This is generally considered a sign ofself-magnification, similar to the intensive plural used to magnify nouns. The best-known example of this is the British royal family who use the "royal we". The 19th century English Queen Victoria used to express her issatisfaction by declaring, "We are not amused" rather than the expected, "I am not amused". In modern English the royal we is used in a variety of contexts not necessarily related to royalty. For example, in certain types of formal speaking and writing, "we" can be used "by a speaker or writer, in order to secure an impersonal tone, or to avoid the obtrusive repetition of 'I'". Modern English also has the "modest we" in which "a person uses a plural form in order not to call attention to himself as an individual." In some dialects of American English "we" is used in place of "I" as a colloquialism, without any connotation of formality or self-magnification. For example, "Give us a chance!" in certain dialects of American English has the meaning of "Give me a chance!". Thus the royal we in English is not strictly speaking "royal" as it is used in a number of social contexts.
ROB" A recent addition to the debate on Elohiym, so does this really exist in ancient times? Gordon" In ancient times, the royal we was not strictly speaking "royal" either. Instead it was used as a formal mode of address in the context of a "royal court". An ancient king was always surrounded by a host of advisors, ministers, and attendants known as the "royal court" or "royal council". Daniel, standing in the Babylonian royal court, said to king Nebuchadnezzar, "This dream and its interpretation we shall say in the king's presence " (Dan 2:36 [Aramaic]). The singular individual Daniel refers to himself as "we" because this is the formal mode of address used in the royal court.Rob" John Wesley (among others) comment: " And we-By this word we appears Daniel's piety and modesty, or he declares by it, that he and his companions had begged this skill from God," So the we, may refer to friends of Daniel, or Daniel and God, a community effort. (not some royal we as Gordon claims)When Rob was 16 years old, having not known about "royal we" or Jewish ideas, I often used my nickname as "we". It was a reference to God and me in relationship. So not all people are swayed by precepts and traditions of men, some of us develop our own word meanings and reasons. The Heavenly Council Gordon" If the ancients used the royal we as a formal mode of address when speaking in a royal court or council, who is YHWH addressing when he says "Let us make man in our image"? Does YHWH have a royal council? For that matter would the all-powerful Creator of the universe bother to tell His creations what He is about to do before doing it? As a matter of fact He would! Scripture informs us that YHWH is a wise king and like a human king he informs His subjects of what he is about to do. Thus we read, "Lord YHWH does not do anything unless he has revealed His council סוֹד to His servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).
ROB: Gordon is leading readers that a solitary one divine being uses creatures around Him as council? Sure you can have a pride of lions, a pack of wolves, a hive of honey bees, but in each of these examples, the council are members of the same creature kind. Are there any clues to elohiym having it's own members in a Divine Kind? Isa 6:1 ¶ In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: Why does the angels say "holy holy holy" three times? Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Why on the throne does this voice speak of us? Isa 6:9 ¶ And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Why does GOD say the humans do not understand? In another torah, in the NT, the same thing is said differently Re 4:8 ¶ And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. Rob" Same Angels this time after speaking "holy holy holy" they also name each member of elohiym powers sitting on each throne 1) YHWH - the Collector 2) Elohiym - the Provider 3) Shadday - the Responder Re 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, Notice the "many are a unit" and YHWH only is referenced. -------------------------- Gordon" . What follows is a deliberation between YHWH and a satanic angel, similar to that which took place in the vision of Michayahu between YHWH and the spirit of false prophecy. T
ROB" Why does Gordon write " a satanic angel" without informing readers of the Hebrew meaning of "satan noun form" this word meaning an opposer. How can an angel be an Opposer of God? Or does Gordon change the meaning of "satan" into something else? Gordon" Finally a "spirit" comes forth and proposes that it be a false spirit of prophecy in the mouth of the prophets of Ahab. YHWH accepts the proposal and orders the spirit to carry out the mission.
ROb" Notice Gordon says the "spirit" volunteers to be a "false spirit of prophecy". But Dave argues no-one can change their design unless created that way, yet the angel volunteers to be a "false spirit of prophecy". Gordon" Thus when Nebuchadnezzar sees a man with the appearance of "a son of God" he knows this to be an "angel" אָךְ ְ לַמ of God.
Rob" This is an assumption. Nebuchadnezzar saw one like the Son of Man, is exactly was He saw, not an angel as Gordon claims. Shalom
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