Good-guy angels and bad-guy angelic-like beings

[Dave]

Aug 19, 2023 4:56:38 GMT -5 rob said:

There is NO different creature in the Bible as you claim. I cannot verify your claims anywhere,
Your idea of two different creatures is really out there, and totally different to the OT torah.

Dave - There have always been two groups
Job 38:7  when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Robert will argue scripture does not mean what it says there is a poetry behind it that is more real – this gives him the authority to rewrite scripture into his own view at will.

IF I WERE THE OFFICIAL TRANSLATOR

Obviously there are two groups – otherwise why mention two groups?
Morning stars and sons of God

This is the one verse I would change
Job 38:7  when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted an alarm (H7321)
Job 38:7  when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God cried an alarm (H7321)
Job 38:7  when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God sounded an alarm (H7321)

H7321- רוּעַ - rûa‛ - A primitive root; to mar (especially by breaking); figuratively to split the ears (with sound), that is, shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.

Sure there are many examples of joy - happiness
Psa 66:1  To the chief Musician, A Song or Psalm. Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands: 

Robert argues that Hebrew words are not polysemous – but admits many have opposite meanings

that is, shout (for alarm or joy)

Jdg 7:21  And they stood every man in his place round about the camp: and all the host ran, and cried, and fled. 

Jdg 15:14  And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him:


2Ch 13:12  And, behold, God himself is with us for our captain, and his priests with sounding trumpets to cry alarm against you.

Job 30:5  They were driven forth from among men, (they cried after them as after a thief;) 

Obviously Hebrew is polsemnous that is, shout (for alarm or joy)

The English bias of the English suggest
Job 38:7  when the morning stars – were happy - and all the sons of God – were happy (H7321)

A Gnostic read would suggest
Job 38:7  when the morning stars – were happy - and all the sons of God – were NOT happy (H7321)

Morning stars -vrs- sons of God
Good guy angels -vrs- the Beast and his archon
Ethereal Angels -vrs- and corporeally created sons of God (made with some matter)

The same sons of God that appeared with satan

Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 

The same sons of God responsible for Gen 6

Gen 6:2  That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 
Gen 6:4  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 

The same sons of God responsible for Gen 6 → Nephilim → Rephiem → sons of Anak → the 7 tribes of Amorite → God calling for their genocide → resulting in Israels torment / punishment / rebuke

Jdg 2:1  And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. 
Jdg 2:2  And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? 
Jdg 2:3  Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. 

Obviously there are two groups – otherwise why mention two groups?
Good guy angels of the Lord – created to serve and praise – including Hebrew satan who obeys and serves God

Bad guy angelic-like beings – The Beast – created with some matter to devour – tear down – wear down – entropy – promote error – promote ignorance of the truth – promote Darkness – also created by God for God

Obviously there are two groups – otherwise why mention two groups?

Hos_1:10  Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Robert speaks of a crossing over
Scripture says Christians become the spiritual children of Abraham

Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 
Gal 3:29  and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise—heirs.
Sons = the animal man - - made with some matter – corporeally created creatures

Joh_1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Sons = the animal man - - made with some matter – a corporeally created creatures

Rom_8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Sons = the animal man - - made with some matter – a corporeally created creature - Born Agaian

Rom_8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Gal_4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Php_2:15  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1Jn_3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jn_3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Sons of God = corporeally created creatures

Obviously there are two groups – otherwise why mention two groups?

Good guy angels of the Lord – created to serve and praise – including Hebrew satan who obeys and serves God

Bad guy angelic-like beings – The Beast – created with some matter to devour – tear down – wear down – entropy – promote error – promote ignorance of the truth – promote Darkness – also created by God for God

[Dave]

Obviously there are two groups – otherwise why mention two groups?

Robert argument comes form his Ellen White SDA indoctrination which promote

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER ONE
I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER
ARTICLE I
II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268
392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign

In fact - Ellen White’s SDA theology is built upon the fallen angel named satan.

The Great Controversy and God's Love for Humanity
Adventist.org - https://www.adventist.org › the-great-controversy
The Great Controversy is a spiritual battle, a conflict over God's character and His right to rule the universe. 

At the very heart of Robert’s, Ellen White’s and the SDA’s teaching is the primes that satan was a good guy angel that recreated himself against God’s Will – To his proof he has repeats Exk 28 – sinning cherub as their only proof

Their satan rebelled against God and Robert cannot repeat his mantra od satan hates and opposes God

and once in a while he falls back on Isa 14:13  (TLV) You said in your heart: “I will ascend to heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will sit upon the mount of meeting, in the uttermost parts of the north. 
------------------------------------

I am a Gnostic Christian – presbytery in education yet a dabbler with Greek translation and am open to non-canon sources of ‘scripture’ (witnesses to God)

Current science – it revealing the creator on many fronts – many respected scientist reject the religion of evolution and seek an Intelligent Designer

Modern physics is more in sync with Jewish kabbalah than with science of just 100 years ago

God created as per the ORDER of Gen 1
Darwin rediscovered that order – what else could he have he have possibly uncover?
Evolution is still kicking around as a non-god religion
But those in the know seek the Intelligent Designer

Pure Science is not the enemy of religion

More and more archaeological discoveries validate the Bible in many ways

More and more discoveries of ancient text – Nag Hammadi – Dead Sea Scrolls

New Chapter Of The Bible Found Hidden Inside 1750-Year ...
https://www.iflscience.com › new-chapter-of-the-bible...
Apr 12, 2023 — The hidden text was found as part of the Sinai Palimpsests Project, where researchers aim to recover texts that were erased and written over by ...

Fragment of a 1750-year-old New Testament translation ...
https://phys.org › Other Sciences › Archaeology
Apr 6, 2023 — About 1,300 years ago a scribe in Palestine took a book of the Gospels inscribed with a Syriac text and erased it.

Scientists Find Bible Chapter Hidden for Thousands of Years
https://www.businessinsider.com › Science
May 22, 2023 — Scientists say they have found an old version of a Bible chapter that was hidden underneath a section of text for more than 1,500 years.

Ancient Bible fragment found, confirming Old Syriac ...
https://www.washingtontimes.com › news › apr › anci...
Apr 13, 2023 — Scholars have discovered a 1750-year-old portion of the Gospel of Matthew in a "layered" manuscript where the original Old Syriac-language ...

Ancient Biblical Texts Have Been Discovered In a 'Cave of ...
https://www.vice.com › Home › Tech
Mar 16, 2021 — Newly discovered fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls, a collection of Hebrew texts that date back some 2,000 years, have been discovered in ..

The question for me is the Christianity of Christ – that Christ left on the earth with His disciples and followers.

Jesus was a Jew – Mat 25 says he did not come to change scripture in any way – but to fulfill

All of His disciples were Jewish – His followers were Jewish – His biggest Apostle was a Jewish scholar – the original audience for Jesus and the Gospel was to the Jews first – then the Gentiles.

I want to understand what they believed – what was really taught – those very first Christians who were all Messianic Jews – Spirit believing Pentecostals

Scripture says Christ spoke to the disciples for 40 days after the Resurrection

Act 1:3  To them He showed Himself to be alive after His suffering through many convincing proofs, appearing to them for forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

What was said? As a believer I sure want to know.

The Nag Hammadi is a complete library – 11 of the 33 title are attributed to James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas, or are consistent with their teaching

1- Spirituality - these First Christians – were all Pentecostal Messianic Jews
They believed in the spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and discuss spiritual warfare
Robert, Ellen White, and the SDA deny the spirit – they look upon Charismatic Christianity as form the devil

2 - Trinity – Robert denies the spirit and cannot understand that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God – This is a different god – as is Christ is a different god – and together with God they allow love to exist between them + they also have a god of evil named satan

Judaism is 100% monotheistic – there is only One True God
Judaism has always respected the Holy Spirit as the Shekhinah
Judaism believes God does and will Tabernacle with man – Sukkot
Jesus Christ is God Tabernacled as a man – God incarnate

3 – The call is to be Born Again and be led by the spirit – and there was a warning about man’s organized religion

The Apocalypse of Peter
"For many will accept our teaching in the beginning. And they will turn from them again by the will of the Father of their error, because they have done what he wanted. And he will reveal them in his judgment, i.e., the servants of the Word. But those who became mingled with these shall become their prisoners, since they are without perception. …

"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."

The call is to be Born Again and be led by the spirit – this was/is in direct conflict with Romes’s desire for form mass dependency upon the church

4- Scripture tells us:
Eph 6:12  For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers (archon), against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 

To the Jewish audience of the day this meant – the shedim of King Solomon
This meant the 33 other gods called by name within scripture + their demons
This meant all the other-gods of the 99% from Egypt to Indian to Greece (known wold)

The 1611 called these same - rulers (archon) - the worldly forces of this darkness, - and the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. - PRINCIPALITIES

The First Christians to follow the Gospel called them archon

shedim – principalities – archon

The New Testament describes them as the Beast of Revelation

Even Robert’s own research into his satan belief says
Satan" as Adversity
The meaning that Satan has today as the name of "the chief of evil spirits" comes from Christian traditions unknown at the time the Gospels were written. The Hebrew word was not a name, but a descriptive noun. 

Catholic satan was not invented until the 3rd century AD by the Roman Catholic church as a Machiavellian enemy of the prole drive them into th church for deliverance

Yet this false Catholic belief is the very foundation of Ellen White and her Great Controversy between to Zoroaserian gods – one good and one evil – and using Islamic Advent math to validate her prophesy – but Robert will not address this blend between Islam and the SDA

At the very heart of Robert’s, Ellen White’s and the SDA’s teaching is the primes that satan was a good guy angel that recreated himself against God’s Will – To his proof he repeats Exk 28 – sinning cherub as their only proof

NT Scripture says
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 

a multitude of different archon each with a different attack mode

all things were created by him, and for him: 

Robert / Ellen White /and the SDA must deny this passage as well
Their god is a Feel Good God of tov only

Ezk 28 proves to them that satan created himself by his own will
Their satan rebelled against God and Robert cannot repeat his mantra of satan hates and opposes God

Because Robert denies the spirit he does not understand how it is man that is cherished by God – it was man in the garden – man was created perfect until sin was found within him – and it was man that was ejected from the garden into the land of Gen 3:15

Sure there is a metaphor in Ezk 28
It is all about man – mankind – any man – every man

and once in a while he falls back on Isa 14:13  (TLV) You said in your heart: “I will ascend to heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will sit upon the mount of meeting, in the uttermost parts of the north. 

Sure there is a metaphor in Isa 14
It is all about man – mankind – any man – every man

Because of their satan centered theology they have some very bizarre false teachings

1 – rebellious satan hates and opposes God
Currently under the thread ‘Robert’s Proof’ – Robert has finally manned up – he is going through each verse about satan and he will show us all how correct he is

2- His teaching of the FALL – belongs in a comic book for toddlers
The earth appeared fully formed – no astrological back story
Although Roberts says there was no ra in his perfect tov world – he makes room for herbivores destroying plant life
After the fall some herbivores were changed by his satan into carnivorous – veterinarian sharks and lions grew fangs and metabolisms changed to use meat protein