DISPENSATIONALISM vs. COVENANT THEOLOGY

[Dave]

DISPENSATIONALISM vs. COVENANT THEOLOGY

1:58 – 3:35 The definition of the two
COVENANT THEOLOGY – only two types covenants – works and grace. OT law works / NT Grace

DISPENSATIONALISM – He says there are 7 levels – do not known this for myself, but he does accurately describe Gnostic Ages –
He speaks to 5 periods in history: before the fall – the fall to Babel – you get to Mount Sinai and the Law – The Cross and Grace – and in the end the Millennium

Gnostic Age 1 – age of spirit – Gen 1:1 before earth
Gnostic Age 2 – Physical creation to Adam
Gnostic Age 3 – Adam to Noah
Gnostic Age 4 – Noah to Babel to Abram
Gnostic Age 5 – Abraham to Jesus – The Age of the Jew
Gnostic Age 6 – The Age of the Gentile
Etc, etc, etc

Each Age a complete theology all of its own

Gen 1:1 Creation
Gen 1:2 Darkness
Gen 1:3 The Light

Rev 12:1-2 Creation
Rev 12:3 Darkness the Beast
Rev 12:5 the Birth of Christ

Adam and Eve begin in the paradise of Eden
They sin and are ejected out of Eden
But they are given the promise of the Seed of Eve

Gen 3:15  I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.” 

The promise of the Messiah

They are given the promise of 550 years

The First Book of Adam and Eve
3:1 GOD said to Adam, "I have ordained on this earth days and years, and thou and thy seed shall dwell and walk in it, until the days and years are fulfilled; when I shall send the Word that created thee, and against which thou hast transgressed, the Word that made thee come out of the garden and that raised thee when thou wast fallen.
2 Yea, the Word that will again save thee when the five days and a half are fulfilled."
(Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. )
3 But when Adam heard these words from God, and of the great five days and a half, he did not understand the meaning of them.
4 For Adam was thinking that there would be but five days and a half for him, to the end of the world.
5 And Adam wept, and prayed God to explain it to him.
6 Then God in His mercy for Adam who was made after His own image and similitude, explained to him, that these were 5,000 and 500 years; and how One would then come and save him and his seed.

The promise of the Word that created you

The First Book of Adam and Eve
14:1 THEN Adam said unto God: "O Lord, take Thou my soul, and let me not see this gloom any more; or remove me to some place where there is no darkness."
2 But God the Lord said to Adam, "Verily I say unto thee, this darkness will pass from thee, every day I have determined for thee, until the fulfilment of My covenant; when I will save thee and bring thee back again into the garden, into the abode of light thou longest for, wherein is no darkness. I will bring thee, to it--in the kingdom of heaven."
3 Again said God unto Adam, "All this misery that thou hast been made to take upon thee because of thy transgression, will not free thee from the hand of Satan, and will not save thee.
4 "But I will. When I shall come down from heaven, and shall become flesh of thy seed, and take upon Me the infirmity from which thou sufferest, then the darkness that came upon thee in this cave shall come upon Me in the grave, when I am in the flesh of thy seed.
5 "And I, who am without years, shall be subject to the reckoning of years, of times, of months, and of days, and I shall be reckoned as one of the sons of men, in order to save thee."
Christ = the Messiah = God = the one who created – on earth as a man

Adam to Noah
Gen 3:15 – The Contest officially begins
Gen 4 - Cain kills Able Gen 6 The Nephlim
Gen 8 – Noah becomes the savior

Noah to Babel to Abram
Gen 11 – Man working together
Gen 11:6  Adonai said, “Look, the people are one and all of them have the same language. So this is what they have begun to do. Now, nothing they plan to do will be impossible. 

Man was reaching for the heavens – taking the struggle back to the Nephilim

God did not allow the Contest to be over so quickly

Gen 11:7  Come! Let Us go down and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand each other’s language.” 

God made the Contest a long drawn out struggle

Abram became the Savior as Abraham and the promise

Abraham to Jesus – The Age of the Jew
Finally to the promised land
The struggle is between Israel and all their neighboring nation states and their gods
The Messiah is the Savior

The Age of the Gentile
History starts over as the NT age of the Gentile
Eph 6:12 – our real struggle – apathy – a falling away
The Messiah as the Second Coming is the Savior

DISPENSATION – different Ages of man – each beginning new – corrupting – then saved by God

Gen 1:1 – Gen 1:2 – Gen 1:3 – the cycle of scripture
Begin – Darkness that hides – Light that illuminates

Rev 12:1-2 – Rev 3-4 – Rev 12:5
Begin – Darkness that hides – Light that illuminates

YES – I am very much in the camp of Dispensation

3:25 - Dispensationalist are more literal to the Word of God

While - COVENANT THEOLOGY is based upon / dependent on – Allegory

allegory
1. a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.

4:20 - Basic principle – if the Bible says something – it means something else
This is mandatory for Robert and his SDA dogma

5:20 – in the 5th century Roman Catholicism saw the Jews as – Christ Killers

5:30 – Martin Luther wrote kills the Jews and later Hitler did it

6:30 – An allagory needs a key or/a code built upon a series of assumptions – A = B = C therefore D means whatever you need it to be

I have used this same criticism of Robert – he play word chain games built upon assumptions

Robert maintains that satan hates God – opposes God
Yet he cannot supply one verse of scripture to defend his view
Nor can he supply one pre-Roman reference

6:45 – Because the allegory method of this means this – then this mean that – then that means this – no one can read the Bible for themselves – someone has to tell them what it says

This is 100% Robert’s argument – Ellen White has taught him how to read scripture – she is another prophet equal with the Apostle Paul

7:40 – the big difference

COVENANT THEOLOGY – The CHURCH has taken the place of Israel

Again – this is very much Robert’s Ellen White teaching – the Jews are done – their role in scripture is over – now it is all about the Body of Christ – The Church

8:00 – now all the promises made within scripture for Israel now pertain to the CHURCH

Exactly why Robert refuses to answer the question – Is 1948 Israel prophetic? Or – who is Allah and the role Islam has in the end of days.

8:32 – Dispensationalist see Israel and the Church as two separate things

Israel must be in the Promised Land as a nation facing its enemies Ezk 40-48

Zec 12:8  In that day Adonai will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem so that the weakest among them that day will be like David and the house of David will be like God—like the angel of Adonai before them. 
Zec 12:9  It will happen in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 
Zec 12:10  “Then I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication, when they will look toward Me whom they pierced.

they will look toward Me whom they pierced.
The remnant of the Jews – in Jerusalem – at the end of days

11:40 – I – I – I – The LORD – I – they will look on me
Jesus Christ is God in human flesh – God incarnate

13:00 – Dispensation – everyone is always saved in the same way – by the GRACE of God – saved by FAITH

Dispensationalist see Israel and the Church as two separate things

What I would add – or how I might disagree

A - Israel suffered a divorce – Judah vrs the Northern Kingdom (1 Kings 12)

B - The 10 tribes of the Nothern Kingdom become lost in several ways 1) The first ways was with the Phoenicians through the Mediterranean. 2) After their release from Babylon – only Judah and Benjamin returned to the Holy Land – many escaped north over the Caucasus Mountains (Caucasians) to populate Scandinavia and Europe. 3) many are absorbed into the local non-Jewish gene pool – Sumerians

C – The lost 10 tribes are responsible for the Caucasian dominance of the Mediterranean + the Caucasian dominance of Scandinavia and Europe + Caucasian expansion into the New World = today’s Christian population +

D – Judah and the Northern Kingdom are re-married 2 Chronicles 29:1-36:23 / Jeremiah 50:4-5 / Ezekiel 37:16-19, 21-22
Christian Gentiles are the lost tribes being reunited with Judah
Explains why Israel’s biggest supporter has always been Western Caucasian Roman Christendom

Who exactly is the remnant? Who exactly is the Church?
The definition become blurred as the end of days approaches.

[Dillon]

I have never been exposed to this Covenant theology. I guess all my Christian church experience has been Dispensational. I have churched several different places, so who teaches this?

(google) Does the Catholic Church believe in covenant theology?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994 – 1997) confirmed this teaching and specified its necessity in spiritual interpretation of scripture…

WOW doesn’t this makes sense. Covenant theology teaches that the “church” replaced Israel as the focal point of all scripture. Making the theology Rome-centric. It is all about Rome.

11:40 – I – I – I – The LORD – I – they will look on me
Jesus Christ is God in human flesh – God incarnate

As I said I love it. Thank You

Zec 12:1  The burden of the word of Adonai concerning Israel. A declaration of Adonai, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit of man within him: 

God who made the spirit of man within him

Zec 12:2  “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of reeling to all the surrounding peoples when they besiege Jerusalem as well as Judah. 

I = God

Zec 12:3  Moreover, in that day I will make Jerusalem a massive stone for all the people. All who try to lift it will be cut to pieces. Nevertheless, all the nations of the earth will be gathered together against her. 

I = God

Zec 12:4  In that day”—it is a declaration of Adonai—“I will strike every horse with confusion and its rider with madness. I will keep My eyes on the house of Judah but will blind every horse of the peoples. 

I = God = Adonai

Zec 12:5  Then the leaders of Judah will say in their heart, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength through Adonai-Tzva’ot their God.” 
Zec 12:6  “In that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a burning torch among sheaves. They will devour on the right and on the left all the surrounding peoples, yet Jerusalem will remain in her place, in Jerusalem. 

I = God

Zec 12:7  Adonai also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and the honor of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not exceed that of Judah. 

God = Adonai

Zec 12:8  In that day Adonai will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem so that the weakest among them that day will be like David and the house of David will be like God—like the angel of Adonai before them. 

God = Adonai

Zec 12:9  It will happen in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 

I = God = Adonai

Zec 12:10  “Then I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication, when they will look toward Me whom they pierced.

I = God = Adonai = the one they pierced = Christ

11:40 – I – I – I – The LORD – I – they will look on me
Jesus Christ is God in human flesh – God incarnate

As I said I love it. Thank You

How can Robert read this and deny the Trinity?

[Dave]

whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-gather-html/
The Gathering of Israel, by Ellen White
A Historical Study of Early Writings, pp. 74-76

It was this earthly-Utopia doctrine of postmillennialism that the Millerites at first labeled "Judaizing" and "Judaism." These terms, used in their first Adventist general conference, held at Boston in 1840, were borrowed from two sixteenth-century Protestant creeds.[10] Only later did they apply them to the Literalist premillennialists. Here is the reason that they did so:
The Literalists insisted that the Old Testament Messianic prophecies were to be fulfilled literally and in detail in the millennial kingdom, especially to literal Israel and Judah in the flesh.

Yep – the end times battles take place in the Middle East between Israel and all of their Muslim neighboring countries

According to this view the kingdom, though ruled by Christ and the resurrected and immortalized saints, would include mortal Jews in Palestine; its capital would be literal Jerusalem, with a literal temple, to which would come up those "left of the nations," still in the flesh; and probation and mortality would continue through the millennium.[11]

Yep – the end times battles take place in the Middle East between Israel and all of their Muslim neighboring countries

The Millerites emphasized what they held in common with the Literalists--Christ's personal presence and reign during the millennium--and minimized the latter's "Literalism" as a curable aberration.[13]

As Litch later told it:
In 1840, an attempt was made to open an interchange between the Literalists of England and the Adventists in the United States. But it was soon discovered that they had as little fellowship for our Anti-Judaizing notions, as we had for their Judaism; and the interchange was broken off.[14]

What the Millerites repudiated as "Judaism" had nothing to do with either the religious teachings of the Jews or with the Sabbath. It was one specific doctrine of the millennium, namely, the teaching that the Old Testament prophecies of Israel's restoration and world leadership were to be fulfilled by a future gathering of literal Jews into Christ's millennial kingdom--a kingdom on this earth with its capital in literal Jerusalem, to which the nations would come up to a restored temple and its services.

Correct – the real difference =
Covenant theology - the Jews are done and lost and play no role in the end times – the allegory is superior to scripture
Dispensation - scripture unfolds exactly as written on the ground – in Israel – with Jerusalem at the center – scripture is just superior
If you believe this – Ellen White calls this - "Judaizing" and "Judaism."

The Millerites, on the contrary, saw in the gathering of Israel the gathering of the immortal saints to meet Christ in the air. All the true children of Abraham by faith--Jew and Gentile--would be caught up at the blast of the trumpet, then would return with Christ to possess the renewed earth.[15]
All attempts to win the Literalists to this view were doomed to failure.

Especially in the light of history

1945 – the world has discovered to end all life on the planet
1945 – Nag Hammadi discovered
1947 Dead Sea Scrolls discovered
1948 – Israel became a nation – 100% Prophetic
1952 – Bretton-Woods and 70 years of peace
1967 – Israel retook the Promised Land (the west bank never promised)
1979 – Jimmy Carter began the Abrahamic Accords
2018 – Donald Trump completed the Abrahamic Accords

Today – Israel is in a military and economic alliance with Sunni Islam (all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates) – in their civil war against Shia Islam of Iran / ISIS, and the Telaban

Today – Sunni Islam is in an alliance with Israel against Iran

Today – 70 years of Bretton-Woods has allowed all the nations to be able to destroy all mankind

The future battle of Armageddon will take place in Lebanon and Jordan – as if the attack came from the North and east and was stopped on Israel’s borders

and it will be a nuclear war

www.thetrumpet.com/11235-the-unthinkable-will-happen
Anciently, God forced His prophets to consider the grotesque consequences that would come about because of our modern weapons of mass destruction. God’s prophets understood that man would have to face the horrendous effects of his own sins.

The Prophet Habakkuk discussed a “bitter and hasty nation” attacking Israel (Habakkuk 1:6). This is a prophecy of a fearsome military machine (verses 7-8). It will be extraordinarily violent, inspired by Satan, the evil god of this world (verses 9-11). It will treat people like fish in a net, showing no mercy (verses 14-17). However, that is not the worst part of this prophetic vision.

“When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops” (Habakkuk 3:16). This prophet wrote about “the day of trouble” for Israel—the Great Tribulation. His main vision was not fulfilled during his life. But it is about to be fulfilled here in the end time.
Habakkuk had never before envisioned anything so terrifying! His “belly trembled” and his “lips quivered”—he was having a difficult time fulfilling his prophetic office! An indescribable terror like rottenness kept his bones from holding his body together! The bones are the body’s strongest parts, its stable framework. Habakkuk almost became like a shapeless blob! This was the effect of the shattering alarm and acute pain he suffered because of what he saw.

God revealed to Habakkuk the most terrifying vision ever to afflict this Earth. This man sawnuclear war and its consequences. He wrote about nuclear winter.

“Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls” (verse 17). Why won’t the fig trees blossom? Even widespread conventional warfare, like in World War ii, would not prevent the fig trees from blossoming. Why are there no grapes on the vines? Even vineyards that are untended would still produce some grapes. Why no olives on the olive trees? Invading armies, even mechanized infantry, even air-dropped bombs could never have so totally devastated an area—until the advent of the nuclear bomb. This is discussing a massive nuclear attack. Bombs are dropped on the cities, yet we see that the farms are also affected. This is a new, unparalleled kind of terror. There are no sheep in the pens nor cattle in the stalls. The total failure of fields to yield crops indicates nuclear fallout!

Only nuclear fallout and nuclear winter could inflict such grotesque damage. That is the only explanation. Habakkuk is crying out to us that the modern Chaldeans are about to attack modern Israel with modern nuclear weapons. Even a nuclear-armed Iran is nothing compared to what this prophecy reveals will happen.
Astronomical Death Counts

How widespread will these horrific nuclear attacks be? The answer in Bible prophecy is deeply sobering.
“Hear ye this word which I take up against you, even a lamentation, O house of Israel. The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord God; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that [the same city of 1,000] which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel” (Amos 5:1-3).

The city is the target here. Notice those casualties! A 10 percent loss in a military campaign is disastrous. Here, 90 percent of the people in a city die immediately! Then, only 10 percent of the survivors remain alive. Only 10 out of a thousand are left—10,000 out of a million. This is speaking of nuclear bombs being dropped on our major cities—destroying 99 percent of the cities’ populations! This is clearly a prophecy of nuclear holocaust.

“And it shall come to pass, if there remain ten men in one house, that they shall die. And a man’s uncle shall take him up, and he that burneth him, to bring out the bones out of the house, and shall say unto him that is by the sides of the house, Is there yet any with thee? and he shall say, No. Then shall he say, Hold thy tongue: for we may not make mention of the name of the Lord” (Amos 6:9-10). There is no indication of an army invading here, yet death still fills the cities. An uncle comes into a house, burns the bodies and takes some bones outside. Everybody was dead in the house, undoubtedly because of nuclear radiation.

“For, behold, the Lord commandeth, and he will smite the great house with breaches, and the little house with clefts” (verse 11). The word breaches is rare. The Anchor Bible says there is “no other occurrence of any word with the same root.” Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon defines this word as “drops of dew.” If you carefully read the context, there seems to be no doubt that this is referring to nuclear fallout!

The word clefts means fissures. That is “a break or lesion in the tissue, usually at the junction of skin and mucous membrane,” according to Webster’s Dictionary. The root word means “to tear in pieces.” “Drops of dew,” or nuclear fallout, certainly will “tear in pieces” human flesh.

Nuclear warfare is coming! And we can’t hide from it by ignoring it or by dreaming of a world free of nuclear weapons.
Imagine how terrible this holocaust will be! It will be the worst time ever known to man! Many Bible scriptures tell us that.

The Prophet Daniel said it would be “a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation” (Daniel 12:1). Jeremiah wrote, “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it” (Jeremiah 30:7). Jesus Christ Himself prophesied of it being “great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be” (Matthew 24:21).

Jesus’s prophecy continued, “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved …“—or as the Moffatt translation reads, “saved alive” (verse 22). He was talking about a time when the annihilation of all human life would be possible
---------------------------------------------

Covenant theology - the Jews are done and lost and play no role in the end times – the allegory is superior to scripture
Dispensation - scripture unfolds exactly as written on the ground – in Israel – with Jerusalem at the center – scripture is superior
If you believe this – Ellen White calls this - "Judaizing" and "Judaism."

Roberts said he agrees with Walid Shoebat – 666 and Islam
But Robert also says Ellen White is beyond reproach because she is inspired by God as a new age prophet

Both cannot be true
Robert flip-flops as the situation arises
Either Robert is willing to say anything – or he really doesn’t support Ellen White – or he is just pretending – not serious at all - to be an ass for fun – mocking Christianity, scripture, and me.

[Dave]

Oct 4, 2023 15:17:52 GMT -5 rob said:

Dispensationalist are more literal to the Word of God
While - COVENANT THEOLOGY is based upon / dependent on – Allegory
ROb
" HMM?

What a well thought out response –
after a month of considering this subject the depth of your answer speaks volumes