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Post by Dave on Sept 27, 2022 19:59:49 GMT -5
Quite a turn around from you, now you agree with me, but only a little. Now you say the SHEDIM only fuel man's yester RA desires.... I have always said this
Hypostasis of the Archon Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.
If the SHEDIM "gave their SHEDIM powers to mankind", what on earth does this mean? Just adding fuel to man's yester RA? I hardly think so Dave. YEP and it is all a deception
Gen 3:6 Now the woman saw that the tree was good for food, - (yester ra) it looked yummy and that it was a thing of lust for the eyes, - (yester ra) it looked yummy and that the tree was desirable for imparting wisdom. - (yester ra) it looked beneficial So she took of its fruit and she ate. – Her choice she made alone – no one forced her – no one ruled her
Than you write "The challenge to Robert has always been to provide a pre-Roman source for catholic fallen angels – an angel that rose up – hates God as Robert says – then changed his form and function to be the god of evil – then changed God’s original Plan against God’s Will" Which is not any comment about the Pre-Roman verse I gave you, from 1 John 3 which says plainly, the chief SHEDIM SINNED from the beginning. I wonder what this means ? to sin.... ? ANSWER - the bane elohiym of Gen 6 reproduced out of their own kind Both Jude and 2 peter says all of those sinning messengers are locked away – held in chains
Jud 1:6 And the angels—who did not keep their own position of authority but deserted their proper place—He has kept in everlasting shackles under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great Day.
2Pe 2:4 For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into Sheol. He put them in chains of gloomy darkness, to be held until the judgment.
If you claim that – what ever happened in Gen 1:2 = a sin Then there is no satanic force opposing man – they are all locked away - held until THE judgment
If you say – whatever happened in Gen 1:2 = a sin – and that satan is here to oppose man Then you deny Jude and 2 Peter as well as Paul
Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned. Rom 5:13 For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law.
Precept upon precept, line upon line – your satan belief is not supported by scripture --------------------
Come on Dave, when a group of humans gather around, with peer group pressure, and kick a weakling on the ground to death, are they just adding fuel to the fire, what is peer group pressure? Where does it come from? Humans only? YEP – man cruelty to man
Or from a group of sinning angels also telling the humans to beat the human to death? There may be an archon – suggesting how much fun it will be – or how manly you will fill afterwards – or how powerful you will feel as a man – or how your buddies will all respect you IT IS A DECEPTION – -------------------
You ask if the whole world is possessed by sinning angels, how does man develop free will? Only if you call out to GOD will God come and rescue you from the weaker opponent, but an opponent, the opposer is Dave. Is it difficult to speak out to God? No, God lives inside each wicked person and as their conscience is speaking to them all the time, but the drugs, music and daily routines drown out the still small voice of God.
If all humanity is ruled by your satan – then all of humanity has no choice but to choose your satan
Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: This verse says the humans worshipped the sinning angels who gave their powers to the kingdom of Satan on earth. NO IT DOES NOT – STOP REWITING SCRIPTURE TO FIT YOUR DOCTRINE
Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: ZERO reference to ‘sinning angels’ – you just added it to corrupt scripture in your favor
Not just do the Shedim distract humans, or just add fuel to human yester ra, oh NO, the SHEDIM actually possess the human minds entirely, with worship. D"So you do present the idea that your satan possess all mankind – rules us from within R" Scripture teaches you are ruled by one of two masters? Yourself with SELF, is a part of Satan's kingdom, or you are ruled by Jesus, because you choose to be ruled by Him. NO IT DOES NOT – STOP REWITING SCRIPTURE TO FIT YOUR DOCTRINE
Jesus said Mat 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick by one and look down on the other. You cannot serve God and money.”
D"So is Putin the only one possessed by your satan Or are all Russians possessed by your satan? Or is all mankind possessed by your satan? R" How much of the Mason religion embraces the world Dave? Where is your answer?
I asked you a direct question – and you respond with Every major town has a Masonic hall
Professor Vieth quotes from Mason books and tells us both the Roman Catholics and Muslims are all Masons, so this secret religion is very powerful. Why do you continue to support and preach Mason Catholic doctrine
What do you know about the Masons and their secret religion? Simple – they are all part of the 13 Families that rule the world
Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: This verse says the humans globally worship this secret religion, which is formed by the dragon, and the religion was granted unto the dragon's kingdom. “Just outside our field of vision are entites that are anything but human – who have been manipulating this world from the outside for eons … some peope call them demonic, some call them the serpent race – Islam calls them the Jinn” – David Ike Luke – James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas called them archon
So back to Dillon's video, so this child sacrifice is just a distraction?, YEP – anything to keep man focused on the World and not the Creator
Without distractions – all of humanity would have rediscovered the One True Creator The One True Creator is completely obviouse to any intelligent person seriously looking
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Archons are sinning angels Dave. They know they are all going to die from their sinnings. Correct – the bane elohiym of Gen 6 are held in prison in chains awaiting Judgment Day
So being revengeful they seek to destroy as many humans as they can, out of spite. Sorry Robert – New Testament scripture says that your sinning angels are locked away – held in a prison – in chains
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2022 16:00:12 GMT -5
Dave replies YEP and it is all a deception Both Jude and 2 peter says all of those sinning messengers are locked away – held in chains Then there is no satanic force opposing man – they are all locked away - held until THE judgmentR" Really Dave, all locked away because of their sinning? How come humans are not locked away because of our sinning? 1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:(KJV) So Peter must be confused, in one letter he writes the sinning messengers are all locked away, but then in another letter he says the adversary, the opponet, the opposer, the shedim, is as a roaring lions, "seeking whom he may devour" sounds like to me, the SHEDIM can still eat humans, attack humans and thus deceive humans, so they sin, like the SHEDIM sin. I could show you more verses, but you seem to ignore Bible verses for some reason. D" Precept upon precept, line upon line – your satan belief is not supported by scriptureR" You quote this but you don't follow it Dave. So Peter can't be telling lies, so his other reference to " locked in chains" is a Hebrew idiom. Meaning the sinning angels are locked unto a single planet and only here can they sin and do their dirty work of killing humans. D" There may be an archon – suggesting how much fun it will be – or how manly you will fill afterwards – or how powerful you will feel as a man – or how your buddies will all respect you IT IS A DECEPTION R" correct , but I would not call this a deception. Hang on. Didn't you just write the sinning messengers are all locked in chains? So how can the SHEDIM tempt humans to sin? You have two groups of sinning creatures don't you, maybe three groups of sinning creatures. The angels who sinned are locked away. The shedim who sin, are morally allowed to sin? weird, but that's Daves view, and the humans who sin are punished in the end for their sinning. Have you every thought to consider the SHEDIM are just sinning angels, restricted to earth? D" If all humanity is ruled by your satan – then all of humanity has no choice but to choose your satanR" correct. However the human could call out of GOD who lives in their conscience, but the humans refuse to call out, so the human is possessed by sinning angels. Correct. Notice in Jesus time, most of the time He was casting out the human possession of sinning angels in His time. RP" Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: This verse says the humans worshipped the sinning angels who gave their powers to the kingdom of Satan on earth.D" NO IT DOES NOT – STOP REWITING SCRIPTURE TO FIT YOUR DOCTRINER" It is exactly what this verse is saying Dave. Show me how my statement is wrong. Subject of noun "humans" verb "worshipped" objective noun "the dragon, or sinning angels". Next part of the sentence is added onto the objective noun. The sinning angels "verb" gave "their powers to" noun "the kingdom of Satan on earth" You also agreed with me a beast is a kingdom power on earth. D" ZERO reference to ‘sinning angels’ – you just added it to corrupt scripture in your favorR" Oh you don't like me saying the dragon is a sinning angel.
1Jo 3:8 The SHEDIM sinned.... (John says SHEDIM sinned) Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, (Jesus says SHEDIM sinned) 1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: (Peter says SHEDIM seek to devour humans) Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. The SHEDIM cannot be chained, they prevent GOD raising Moses. Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, Jude writes because certain deceptions have entered the church in his day He writes parallels making comparisons:- Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; I read this as the sinning angels are written in different ways " as similes of humans who sin in Sodom as similes of fighting over the dead God wishes to raise as similes of brute beast seeking to devour humans as similes of seeking human lines (cain) so as to promote their own sinning's as similes of disease spots, they feast with you, making you twice dead. I would imagine you read this as separate creatures, sinning angels and Shedim are two different creatures. D" Sorry Robert – New Testament scripture says that your sinning angels are locked away – held in a prison – in chains
R" Re 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. If the SHEDIM are locked in chains here... Hhhmm? I need a verse that says the SHEDIM are angels? You ignore Rev 12 "War in heaven You ignore "Devil and his messengers war in heaven Here is a link to SHEDIM and messengers, ie angels from heaven. If humans will one day judge angels, they must have done more sinning than just Gen 6? Why do you deny Scritpure Dave? And if the sinning angels are already locked on earth, how come the angel comes down with a chain to lock the sinning angels again? One has to understand what the chain is a process of. You cannot prove from Scripture the SHEDIM are created as SHEDIM by GOD, therefore the SHEDIM must be some other creature who chose to SIN. What is the SHAD or SHEDIM a symbol of? Eze 23:21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth. A worldly kingdom that raises humans in their worldly ways. In this case Egypt. So the SHEDIM is a kingdom on earth that raises humans differently than GOD would. Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Notice the SHEDIM kingdom is termed a house of bondage. God rescues humans from the PAPS that hold humans in bondage, in chains. WHO are these PAPS a symbol of? Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. False elohiym powers, that came to earth as a kingdom to be false PAPS to humans. The term "house of bondage" must be an idiom, as "ebed" means "Servant" so how can it also mean "boundage" ? Hmm? SHalom Dave, enjoy your day
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Post by Dave on Sept 28, 2022 21:48:43 GMT -5
Both Jude and 2 peter says all of those sinning messengers are locked away – held in chains Then there is no satanic force opposing man – they are all locked away - held until THE judgment R" Really Dave, all locked away because of their sinning? How come humans are not locked away because of our sinning?
The humans that were involved were destroyed by your Feel; Good God that never causes harm Gen 6:7 So Adonai said, “I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the ground, from humankind to livestock, crawling things and the flying creatures of the sky, because I regret that I made them.”
Their biological bodies destroyed – but their spirit remained in purgatory waiting to be preached to by Christ
1Pe 3:18 For Messiah once suffered for sins also—the righteous for the unrighteous—in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Ruach. 1Pe 3:19 Through the Ruach He also went and preached to the spirits in prison. 1Pe 3:20 Long ago they disobeyed while God kept waiting patiently, in the days of Noah as the ark was being built. In that ark a few (that is, eight souls) were brought safely through water.
1- their bodies dead and buried 2- the spirits remaining alive and well inpurgatory 3- While the body of Jesus was dead and in the tomb for 3 days – Christ in the spirit – preached to those spirits
You aregue no man can repent after mortal death – why did Christ witness to the dead?
1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:(KJV) So Peter must be confused, This is your defense – the New Testament is flawed – some of us teach it as inspired
in one letter he writes the sinning messengers are all locked away, YES – the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – Enoch’s Watchers – the Gigori
but then in another letter he says the adversary, the opponet, the opposer, the shedim, is as a roaring lions, "seeking whom he may devour" sounds like to me, the SHEDIM can still eat humans, attack humans and thus deceive humans YES – the bane elohiym of Gen 6 - the sinning angels of Jude and 2 Peter = was only 200 of the total
D"Precept upon precept, line upon line – your satan belief is not supported by scripture R" You quote this but you don't follow it Dave. So Peter can't be telling lies, NOPE – 2 Peter is the inspired word of God – no lies D"If all humanity is ruled by your satan – then all of humanity has no choice but to choose your satan R" correct. However the human could call out of GOD who lives in their conscience, but the humans refuse to call out, so the human is possessed by sinning angels. Corre How can a human possessed by satan call out for God – ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!
RP" Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: This verse says the humans worshipped the sinning angels who gave their powers to the kingdom of Satan on earth. D" NO IT DOES NOT – STOP REWITING SCRIPTURE TO FIT YOUR DOCTRINE R" It is exactly what this verse is saying Dave. Show me how my statement is wrong.
D"ZERO reference to ‘sinning angels’ – you just added it to corrupt scripture in your favor R" Oh you don't like me saying the dragon is a sinning angel. Where is your proof – waiting for your proof – all you have is Roman Catholic doctrine Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. The SHEDIM cannot be chained, they prevent GOD raising Moses. Why do you deny the New Testament in favor of Roman Catholic doctrine? Why isn’t the New Testament the inspired word of God?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2022 15:37:09 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Happy Sabbath A special 10 days of awe leading to the Yom Kippor Tensions over the Russian and USA conflict?
D" 1Pe 3:19 Through the Ruach He also went and preached to the spirits in prison. R" I read 12 Bible verses, none say "through the Ruwach"
If Scripture says ye have no control over the Ruwach upon the day of your death, how do your explain, Jesus being taken to visit so called spirits from long ago? D"1- their bodies dead and buried 2- the spirits remaining alive and well inpurgatory 3- While the body of Jesus was dead and in the tomb for 3 days – Christ in the spirit – preached to those spirits R" So you believe in the Catholic idea of purgatory?
What a lot of weight upon a Hebrew idiom, "the spirits in prison" ?
You are saying Jesus preached to the wicked ones? Only eight righteous were saved alive, why would Jesus preach to the wicked ones, when Noah preached to them already for over 120 years, when they were alive?
You speak of judging the wicked ones before they are raised for judgement? No need for judgement?
How can Jesus witness to the wicked ones? Why would Jesus want to anyway? They had 120 years to repent, but chose not to?
To me Jesus went to the "spirits in prison" meaning, Jesus preached to the righteous ones on earth, trapped in their sinful bodies while alive, and gave them salvation, makes a lot more sense. Peter is using this as a figure... how do it know it's a figure, a poetry simile?
1Pe 3:21 ¶ The like figure
The verse tells 1Pe 3:21 baptism doth also now save us Peter also tells us the Noah experience is a simile of baptism
If your myths were true, there should be other verses to back up your ideas? Where are they?
D"This is your defense – the New Testament is flawed – some of us teach it as inspired R" No Dave, not flawed ALL inspired, you have to change the idea of "locked in chains" to me an idiom for restricted to earth only. But free on earth to work their sins.
Paul was restricted for some years as a prisoner but allowed to preach while in prison, same idea.
Dave your copy and paste technique is rude,
DO you agree with me the Devil is going around seeking to devour us? You said "yes".
You say " 2 Peter is the inspired word of God – no lies" therefore you agree the "Shedim-devil" is able to go around "tempting humans, harming humans, and making humans sin"/
D"How can a human possessed by satan call out for God – ABSOLUTE NONSENSE! R" Easy, many a wicked soldier called out on the battle field, God hears the cries and immediately ejects the weaker opponent.
Being under the force control of another presence, cannot rob you of speaking your own free will, if you wish to. D"Where is your proof – waiting for your proof – all you have is Roman Catholic doctrine
Rob answers:
1Jo 3:8 ...for the devil (G1228 - diabolos) sinneth And a study of G1228
Mt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
The G1228 is termed an enemy of GOD
Mt 4:1 ..Jesus..was ..to be tempted of the devil . The G1228 tried to tempt Jesus to sin
Mt 25:41 ...into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The G1228 has messengers with him. Both go into the fire.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil,
Jesus claims many Jews are of the father the G1228
Joh 13:2 ..the devil ..put ..to Judas Iscariot, , to betray him;
The G1228 seeks humans to betray Jesus
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Paul tells us many humans sins come from G1228
Eph 6:11 be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
Humans wrestle (primarily) against the G1228, not against our flesh filled with so called yester ra. Heb 2:14 ...that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
The G1228 has the power of death, proving the G1228 caused human mischief, of which is the death penalty for all humans born on earth after Eve.
1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about,
The G1228 is able to walk around devouring humans
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The G1228 is termed the dragon, the shedim, the Satanas in Greek, and his aggelos were cast our with him.
Greek term "messengers" G32
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
The G32 live and dwell around the Father in heaven.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
All the G32 worship the SON, but one G32, also termed the G1228 refused to do this, asking instead for Jesus the SON of GOD to worship the G32/ also G1228.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Peter says the G32 are banished to earth in chains of darkness, an idiom for the reduction in Godly powers, they have only restricted powers of darkness, are a reserved unto judgement for their sins.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude says the same thing, the angels G32 are banished to earth under everlasting chains of darkness.
Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
There is written here good G32 and bad G32 fighting a war, with generals in charge of their armies of G32.
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Now if the chief G32, termed G1228 and Greek Satanas, has also many sinning G32 with him, all on earth in chains of darkness.
Rob says there is plenty of proof the angels are on earth in chains of darkness, a idiom meaning they have much less powers of GOD when they were sinless angels, now they are condemned as sinning angels, and the powers of God have left them, ie, chains of darkness.
Now Dave it's up to you to prove the G32 also known as G1228, are locked up on earth until judgement, is not able to deceive humans, is clearly not taught in Scripture.
And I do not need my cherub sinned verse in Ezekiel 28, but it's nice the OT also agree with the NT.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 30, 2022 5:34:03 GMT -5
D" 1Pe 3:19 Through the Ruach He also went and preached to the spirits in prison. R" I read 12 Bible verses, none say "through the Ruwach"
1Pe 3:18 … put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:18 … put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 1Pe 3:19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,
1Pe 3:18 … ζῳοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι· 1Pe 3:19 ἐν ᾧ καὶ τοῖς ἐν φυλακῇ πνεύμασι πορευθεὶς ἐκήρυξεν,
ζῳοποιηθεὶς = G2227 – ζωοποιέω - to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.
δὲ πνεύματι· = G4151 - πνεῦμα - a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul,
ἐν = G1722 - A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import;
ᾧ = G3739 - ὅς, ἥ, ὅ - the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that: - one, (an-, the) other, some, that, what, which, who
but quickened by the Spirit: + By which also he went made alive by the Ruach. + Through the Ruach He also went made alive in the spirit; + in which also he went quickened by the Spirit: + By which also he went
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body; 1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, 1Co 15:46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual. 1Co 15:47 The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord out of heaven; 1Co 15:48 as is the earthy, such are also the earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are also the heavenly; 1Co 15:49 and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly. 1Co 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; 1Co 15:51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; 1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we—we shall be changed: 1Co 15:53 for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; 1Co 15:54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up—to victory; 1Co 15:55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
If Scripture says ye have no control over the Ruwach upon the day of your death, Correct – if you end up in hell you cannot do anything about it
how do your explain, Jesus being taken to visit so called spirits from long ago? 1- Jesus – Son of Man was dead as road kill – in the tomb 2- Christ = God = The Holy Spirit – His true form 3- Christ preached to the lost in hades (the unseen)
D"1- their bodies dead and buried 2- the spirits remaining alive and well inpurgatory 3- While the body of Jesus was dead and in the tomb for 3 days – Christ in the spirit – preached to those spirits R" So you believe in the Catholic idea of purgatory? Hades/Shoel is a 100% Hebrew teaching Gehenna/Tartarus is a 100% Hebrew teaching
What a lot of weight upon a Hebrew idiom, "the spirits in prison" ? NOPE – just a belief in the spiritual
How can Jesus witness to the wicked ones? – DUH
Why would Jesus want to anyway? – WHAT A CHRISTIAN THING TO SAY
They had 120 years to repent, but chose not to? WHAT? - Why don’t you know your scripture? How long did man live before the Flood?
D"This is your defense – the New Testament is flawed – some of us teach it as inspired R" No Dave, not flawed ALL inspired, you have to change the idea of "locked in chains" to me an idiom for restricted to earth only. CORRECT – ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS REWRITE SCRIPTURE TO MEAN WHAT YOU WANT IT TO -------------------
DO you agree with me the Devil is going around seeking to devour us? You said "yes". You say " 2 Peter is the inspired word of God – no lies" therefore you agree the "Shedim-devil" is able to go around "tempting humans, harming humans, and making humans sin"/ YES – THE REALTY OF THE ARCHON – 100% real and in your face
1Jo 3:8 ...for the devil (G1228 - diabolos) sinneth And a study of G1228 Humans wrestle (primarily) against the G1228, not against our flesh
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The G1228 is termed the dragon, the shedim, the Satanas in Greek, and his aggelos were cast our with him.
Greek term "messengers" G32 YES – the BEAST has messengers – offspring - archon
The G32 live and dwell around the Father in heaven. YES – God has messengers – 9 or 10 different and individual types Heb 1:6 … the angels of God worship him.
All the G32 worship the SON, but one G32, also termed the G1228 refused to do this, asking instead for Jesus the SON of GOD to worship the G32/ also G1228.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; Correct – the bane elohiym of Gen 6
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Correct – the bane elohiym of Gen 6
Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
There is written here good G32 and bad G32 fighting a war, with generals in charge of their armies of G32. ABSOLUTELY AGREE – There are - TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Now if the chief G32, termed G1228 and Greek Satanas, has also many sinning G32 with him, all on earth in chains of darkness.
Rob says there is plenty of proof the angels are on earth in chains of darkness, a idiom meaning they have much less powers of GOD when they were sinless angels, now they are condemned as sinning angels, and the powers of God have left them, ie, chains of darkness.
Now Dave it's up to you to prove the G32 also known as G1228, are locked up on earth until judgement, is not able to deceive humans, is clearly not taught in Scripture.
1- You are playing a Robert word game and making a false correlation Just because two different groups have their own messengers – does not force them into one group
Russia has soldiers in an army with generals Australia has soldiers in an army with generals One Russian soldier committed a crime
Why do you accuse all Australian soldiers of that same crime
A Russian soldier rapes – does this prove that a Japanese soldier rapes If a Russian soldier deserts – does this mean that all Canadian soldiers are deserters
Can you prove that soldier – sent to Africa – is from Russia or Australia Just because two different groups (countries) have their own soldiers – does not force them into one group The Messenger is the Message: Hebrews 1:5–2:18 If Jesus Christ is a messenger – does this prove Jesus Christ was just an angel? Its your word game
2- Doesn’t Ellen White teach any punishment for the wicked – this is it – this is hell Why do you consider your home the deepest pit of hell How fascinating how Ellen White overlaps with the Jehovah’s Witness – they don’t have a heaven or hell either – this is all there is – heaven for some – hell for others
If this is hell - why did you ask why Jesus would preach in hell?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2022 15:57:41 GMT -5
Greetings Dave' You are hard to talk to D"YES – the BEAST has messengers – offspring - archon Why do you split G32 into "beast and messengers" OK so they have different functions.
Why arn't you terming the beast function by it's correct creature name?
Why arn't you terming the messenger function by it's correct creature name?
You wrongly state there are 9 or 10 different and individual types of messengers. Again this refers only to different functions.
A human can be a plumber, a sparky and a teacher, only different functions.
The human is the correct name for the creatures with these functions.
The only term given to the G32 around the throne is the "cherub bara" the cherubims were created as creatures, but you also assume this term means to "guard" no it doesn't. It's a term meaning the kind of creatures around God's throne and his heaven, and some cherubs are messengers and some cherub guard the laws of God, ie the "saraph" the burning cherubims do, given the function of saraph, with means to burn.
But instead you only address your creatures by their functional terms, why do you do that?
Don't you have the creature term for the beast and his messengers?
That term is cherub.
The beast function was given to a cherub, that sinned. The messenger function are also cherub that sin and spread the sinning of the chief cherub who aslo sins around the world, since the angels have no omnipresence.
There is no Hebrew word "bara" used directly for "archon", hence this term is not a creature, but a function.
D"ABSOLUTELY AGREE – There are - TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS R" No Dave you do not agree, your say the Beast is different to a G32.
You say there are different groups of messengers good and bad.
I am saying there are only one type of creature, termed cherub. Some cherub fought against other cherub. Why? Because some cherub chose to sin and other cherub chose to remain sinless. Only after much talking did two groups of cherubims appear, sinning cherubs and sinless cherubs.
You would not agree with any other this. You only see creatures as messengers. One was created to serve God, the other created to tempt humans. You do not have a sinning process like I do, where many cherubs change their functions of praising God to that of cursing God.
So stop deceiving readers with your brevity brief statements.
Than Dave writes this
"You are playing a Robert word game and making a false correlation Just because two different groups have their own messengers – does not force them into one group"
Would you like to unravel what you are saying? I have no idea?
Both groups of G32 Dave are G32 types of creatures. They are both cherub.
Some cherub choose to sin, some cherub choose not to sin in this war of words in heaven.
That you post poetry similes
Russia has soldiers in an army with generals Australia has soldiers in an army with generals One Russian soldier committed a crime
Why do you accuse all Australian soldiers of that same crime R" I don't Dave. Russian general has Russian soldiers. Some soldiers choose to sin and rape a woman at war. When the Russian general finds out the sinning soldiers, He has them all killed because of their sins.
Why you also add another country leader into this I don't know. Suppose in Russia Some Russians conspire to overthrow Putin and start up another rebellious army under a new despot. All the soldiers under this despot are killed because they fight against the General Army in Russia.
If one cherub sins, does not mean all cherubs sin, Dave, some chose to sin and some chose not to sin. So what on earth are you talking about?
D"2- Doesn’t Ellen White teach any punishment for the wicked – this is it – this is hell Off topic. The wicked are punished after they are judged. Satan and his sinning angels are judged last and punished last, because they are punished longest in time for all their sinnings they did to humans. There punishing lasts for every sin they ever committed. The Lake of Fire does this, after they are judged. Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
Notice the punishing happens after the judging which happens after the dead are raised. No such thing as punishing the dead in the grave. Spirits do not live when the biological body dies. This is a lie spoken by the Shedim in the Garden of Eden. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 1, 2022 10:34:06 GMT -5
D"YES – the BEAST has messengers – offspring - archon Why do you split G32 into "beast and messengers" OK so they have different functions. NO they don’t – a messenger is a messenger – no more no less
Why arn't you terming the beast function by it's correct creature name? Messengers of the beast = devils, evil spirit / satanas / the serpent race King Solomon called the shedim The authors of the agl/NT called them archon
You wrongly state there are 9 or 10 different and individual types of messengers. Again this refers only to different functions. Sorry Robert – I am a Judeo- Christian
Angels in Judaism 1 Chayot Ha Kodesh 2 Ophanim 3 Seraphim 4 Cherubim 5 Erelim 6 Tarshishim 7 Hashmallim 8 Elim 9 Malakim 10 Ishim
Angels in Christianity Highest orders = Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones Middle orders = Dominions, Virtues, Powers Lowest orders = Principalities, Archangels, Angels
In Judaism, the Ishim (Heb. אִישִׁים - "men", "personages", "personalities", "individuals") or Eshim (אֵשִׁים - "fires", "flames", "sparks") are a class of angels said to be the closest to the affairs of mortals
In Christianity, What does the principalities mean in the Bible? (Eph. 3: 10) One of St. Paul's contributions to our understanding of the powers of evil is to sum them up in the phrase 'principalities and powers'. For him they represent the sum-total of evil powers that threaten men both heavenly and earthly.
Ishim lowest order of Jewish angels – next to mam Principalities = Archon the lowest order of Christian angels – next to man
Col 1:16 – made by God for God Eph 6:12 – our real struggle ----------------
D"ABSOLUTELY AGREE – There are - TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS R" No Dave you do not agree, your say the Beast is different to a G32. G32 - ἄγγελος - to bring tidings; a messenger; - a pastor – a preacher of the message it was sent to carry
"You are playing a Robert word game and making a false correlation Just because two different groups have their own messengers – does not force them into one group"
Would you like to unravel what you are saying? I have no idea? Both groups of G32 Dave are G32 types of creatures. They are both cherub. LIE – they are both messengers
Luke 7 / Mat 11 John sent out G32 (messengers) You teach that John commanded angels from heaven – scripture says these were just men
Russia has soldiers in an army with generals Australia has soldiers in an army with generals One Russian soldier committed a crime
Why do you accuse all Australian soldiers of that same crime R" I don't Dave. They are both called soldiers – therefore they must be the same group
Russian general has Russian soldiers. Some soldiers choose to sin and rape a woman at war. When the Russian general finds out the sinning soldiers, He has them all killed because of their sins. YEP – just like God did with the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – locked away in prison – but you deny it
Why you also add another country leader into this I don't know. They are both called soldiers – therefore they all come from the same source You claim that evil spirits and devils are angel of God - why you do this I don’t know
D"2- Doesn’t Ellen White teach any punishment for the wicked – this is it – this is hell Off topic. The wicked are punished after they are judged. So the people that are of the FIRST RESURECTION are raise to judgment? And then killed? One judgment for any sin – death Regardless if you are Hitler or Mother Teresa
Rev 20:4 Firts Fruits = and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Why do you say the Resurected are judged - scripture says Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Reigning with God = SDA punishment Please explain - or are you just making up anti-Christin redorick
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. I have asked you before – why is the BEAST at home in the Lake before satan You never answered
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. One judgment for any sin – death Regardless if you are Hitler or Mother Teresa
Notice the punishing happens after the judging which happens after the dead are raised. No such thing as punishing the dead in the grave. One judgment for any sin – death Regardless if you are Hitler or Mother Teresa
Spirits do not live when the biological body dies. This is a lie spoken by the Shedim in the Garden of Eden. Except Christ 1 Peter 1:18 Except the men who died in the Flood – 1 Peter 3:19 Except for Moses who stood with Christ in the Transfiguration Except Saul put to death for contacting the dead. - 1 Chronicles 10:9-14 / 1 Samuel 28:6-11
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2022 16:36:57 GMT -5
D" Sorry Robert – I am a Judeo- Christian
Angels in Judaism 1 Chayot Ha Kodesh 2 Ophanim 3 Seraphim 4 Cherubim 5 Erelim 6 Tarshishim 7 Hashmallim 8 Elim 9 Malakim 10 Ishim R" The only creature listed about that is directly "bara" created is the "cherubim. All the others are functions of the "cherubim" Dave.
D"They are both called soldiers – therefore they must be the same group R" Your logic is absurd. Australian soldiers is totally different to Russian soldiers, yes they are both human.
If a Australian solider sins, got nothing to do with Russian soldiers. DUH
D"They are both called soldiers – therefore they all come from the same source You claim that evil spirits and devils are angel of God - why you do this I don’t know R" You are weird. I have only said the sinning cherubims are sinful and ejected to earth, in chains of darkness, not totally locked away so they cannot tempt humans to sin. The sinless cherubims are still in heaven praising God.
Is this so hard to fathom?
D"So the people that are of the FIRST RESURECTION are raise to judgment? And then killed? One judgment for any sin – death Regardless if you are Hitler or Mother Teresa R" do you care to write your words correctly The first resurrection are never killed, they live with Jesus forever and ever.
The second resurrection are raised to listen to their judgement, yes. After that they are killed for ever and ever, non-existence. Some are punished with a slower death and dying experience than others according to their rewards. Yes. Hitler is one of those dying in pain slower than other wicked ones. Satan himself the sinning angel is the last to die painfully.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 1, 2022 18:16:41 GMT -5
D"They are both called soldiers – therefore they must be the same group R" Your logic is absurd. Australian soldiers is totally different to Russian soldiersMessengers of God are totally different to messengers of the BeastBut you argue they are both G32 – therefore they are all the same source This is your proof - this is your argument - they are both the same word - G32Australian solider … got nothing to do with Russian soldiers. DUH
Exactly my teaching – messengers of the Lord has nothing to do with messengers of the Beast
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2022 14:40:54 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Again your logic is completely weird.
The creatures are both G32, messengers. But what kind of creature are these messengers, since the messengers came from heaven?
They have to be angels, or cherubims, the only creature mentioned in Scripture that was created as a creature, ie "bara cherub".
And even if you do not wish to agree with this,
The G32 is telling you some messengers were good and some messengers were bad and were ejected from heaven. How can this be? How can a messenger change it's function and carry a bad message rather than a good message? According to Dave, such a change of function is impossible.
Obviously the messengers that carry bad messages, must be sinning messengers, again the only criteria that makes GOD oppose His creatures, their choosing to sin.
So again I can still prove you are wrong, even if you don't like to admit they messengers are cherubims that sin.
The messengers do tell us that they now carry bad messages, which God does not like and hence the war in heaven was over their carrying bad messages.
Hence the messenger's sin.
And the chains of darkness mentioned so much, is hardly the same as a chain of steel, so this is telling you it's a poetry simile, not to be taken as a real totally restrictive prison process. What is so literal about darkness as a chain? DUH. This is saying SIN is a stronger or stronger than steel, just as a body that becomes darkness because of SIN, causes the human to be in a prison house. Same idea.
I see humans who sin, as having "chains of darkness" too, in fact we live in a prison house. We are "spirits in prison" is you wish to write this idiom. Darkness is far stronger than steel as a bondage material, because it is not physical, its a process where GOD leaves much of his powers from your life.
Notice the commandment describes salvation to every human, as a "spirit in prison"
Ex 20:2 GOD rescued humans from the house of bondage.
The phrase "house of bondage" is a idiom similar to "chains of darkness" similar to "spirits in prison", where the human is made freed from the "chains of darkness" that bind him in his "prison house". The word "ebed" meaning "Servant" is translated as it's opposite meaning "bondage".
But again you ignore these verses you read and fail to see with clear vision of things.
D"Exactly my teaching – messengers of the Lord has nothing to do with messengers of the Beast
R" Not so Dave, both messengers are written as G32, So some messengers are carrying good messages and the other messengers are carrying bad messages.
How come? Because the messengers choose to sin, ie war in heaven over the messages the messengers are carrying.
Is there any other proof of this bad messages idea? Yes
Ezekiel 28, the cherub chata, the angel sinned. Hence carries a bad message.
Can you explain why the messengers are carrying bad messages? Enough to cause a war in heaven? Notice the creature carrying the messages does not have to change it's body, or it's original functional design, it's still a messenger, only now carrying bad messages?
Where do bad messages come from? We term this sin in Scripture. Scripture does not explain where sin comes from, only that it came into existence, through choice.
You really need to see Scripture as Scripture tells it.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 3, 2022 3:07:00 GMT -5
D"Exactly my teaching – messengers of the Lord has nothing to do with messengers of the Beast
R" Not so Dave, both messengers are written as G32, So some messengers are carrying good messages and the other messengers are carrying bad messages. YEP – Russian soldiers carry Russia’s message to the world – untrustworthy - aggressive – no morals And Australian soldiers carry their message to the world – defense – protective – honor
Again your logic is completely weird. It is your own word game
The creatures are both G32, messengers. But what kind of creature are these messengers, since the messengers came from heaven? Soldiers are both human and from earth – the same source
The G32 is telling you some messengers were good and some messengers were bad and were ejected from heaven. How can this be? Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Because there are two groups – angels and archon
How can a messenger change it's function and carry a bad message rather than a good message? According to Dave, such a change of function is impossible. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT – no created being ever changed his form or function (role within creation) against God’s Will then changed / altered / corrupted God’s Plan also against God’s Will
Obviously the messengers that carry bad messages, must be sinning messengers, again the only criteria that makes GOD oppose His creatures, their choosing to sin. If you say that – what ever happened in Gen 1:2 (Rev 12:1-4) = The Beast and ignorance Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Darkness = ignorance / entropy - and scripture is correct Then sin entered the world through Eve Rom 5:12 – and scripture is correct Then the messengers that did not keep their first estate and are sinning angels = the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – locked away from man – and scripture is correct And the rest of the archon are still here to interfere with man – and scripture is correct
Where do bad messages come from? Col 1:15 (Christ) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Where do bad messages come from? ANSWER - made by God for God - and scripture is correct
We term this sin in Scripture. I would never call God’s creation sin – why do you
Scripture does not explain where sin comes from, only that it came into existence, through choice. Eve’s choice – then Adam’s – then all men / any man / humanity Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: WHY DO YOU DENY THE NEW TESTAMENT AND CALL YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2022 15:43:28 GMT -5
D"ABSOLUTELY CORRECT – no created being ever changed his form or function (role within creation) against God’s Will then changed / altered / corrupted God’s Plan also against God’s Will
R" Hence the reason you say "Because there are two groups – angels and archon"
Hence the reason you mock my ideas
"It is your own word game"
Dave cannot fathom G32 as some sinless messengers and some sinning messengers.
Dave cannot stand the idea that cherubs can choose to sin, and hence change function.
Funny humans can choose to sin and change function? We humans have free will, while angels don't Dave says?
I show you the term G32 is associated with sinning, but you say they are chained up, funny how chains of darkness really lock you from doing anything?
Dave says "Then sin entered the world through Eve Rom 5:12 – and scripture is correct
Rob for humans, yes. But humans were not the only creatures to have sinned.
You agree some angels sinned, but that they are locked away from tempting humans to sin.
How is a chain made from darkness, supposed to lock you away? Explain.
Dave quotes "Then the messengers that did not keep their first estate and are sinning angels = the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – locked away from man – and scripture is correct Rob replies, you are twist the text.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
And Peter says
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
So they both say the angels that sin are under chains of darkness. Explain how a chain made out of darkness stops you from tempting humans to sin?
D"And the rest of the archon are still here to interfere with man – and scripture is correct R" So this is another group of creatures APART from angels. SO Dave really has three groups of creatures that SIN 1) humans 2) angels 3) archons - there sinning is created that way by God
Really Dave, while Scripture only speaks of two creatures that sin 1) humans 2) cherub (ezekiel 28) also known as shedim, false teat, angels who supply false milk.
There is not a single text anywhere to archons as this term being created as that term.
Only Dave invents this idea.
No scholar either to explain Satan as different to Satanas.
You really only support your own idea of religion; I am still waiting for a scholar who agrees with you. Even Icke never speaks the word "archon". Does a Jew speak the term "Archon", Does Friendman? I doubt this?
Rob asks Dave "Where do bad messages come from? And Dave answers "Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, Rob exclaims really Dave, messages cannot be created? When I get a letter and place it next to another letter, a message appears.
But I cannot create a message.
I can write a message or form letters together to make a message appear.
The verses you quote are about creating creatures Dave. Not the messages they choose to speak.
RP" Where do bad messages come from? D" ANSWER - made by God for God - and scripture is correct R" You need to go read my words again.
You made a huge goof.
God does not create the words I speak, the words I write, unless I ask Him for wisdom to write these messages to you.
So your view is GOD creates everything about you. Even your words are created by GOD.
So this verse is a lie is it?
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Reason produces bad messages, termed sin, it says here clearly in this verse.
But Dave says bad messages are also created by GOD.
Really Dave you make weird statements.
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Post by Dave on Oct 4, 2022 3:15:03 GMT -5
Dave cannot fathom G32 as some sinless messengers and some sinning messengers. DUH – there are two groups – angels and archonDave cannot stand the idea that cherubs can choose to sin, and hence change function. REPEAT - D"ABSOLUTELY CORRECT – no created being ever changed his form or function (role within creation) against God’s Will then changed / altered / corrupted God’s Plan also against God’s Will
Funny humans can choose to sin and change function? No human every changed into a completely different creature with a different role within creation Man is the creature that can chooseWe humans have free will, while angels don't Dave says? Angels do not have Free Will - their only choice is to serve and praiseI show you the term G32 is associated with sinning, but you say they are chained up, funny how chains of darkness really lock you from doing anything? Scripture says they are chained up – in several places – Jude + 2 Peter + EnochDave says "Then sin entered the world through Eve Rom 5:12 – and scripture is correct Rob for humans, yes. But humans were not the only creatures to have sinned. Scripture does NOT say this – only you doYou agree some angels sinned, but that they are locked away from tempting humans to sin. Dave quotes "Then the messengers that did not keep their first estate and are sinning angels = the bane elohiym of Gen 6 – locked away from man – and scripture is correct Rob replies, you are twist the text. Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. And Peter says 2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; So they both say the angels that sin are under chains of darkness. Explain how a chain made out of darkness stops you from tempting humans to sin? WOW – your depth of understanding is outstandingThere is not a single text anywhere to archons as this term being created as that term. Only Dave invents this idea. G746 - ἀρχή - chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank)Luk 20:20 And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power (ARCHON) and authority of the governor. Eph 1:21 Far above all principality (ARCHON), and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities (ARCHON) and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities (ARCHON), against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities (ARCHON), or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality (ARCHON) and power: Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities (ARCHON) and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. No scholar either to explain Satan as different to Satanas. You and Jeff Brenner make a big deal about the origins of word roots You have a double standard - absolute rules for other people - hypoicritwww.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4567/kjv/tr/0-1/Satanas - Root Word (Etymology) Of Aramaic origin www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/satanas.htmlSatanas of Aramaic originThayer – Satanas - of Aramaic originStrongs - Satanas - Of Chaldee origin36 reference to Aramaic Chaldean satanas within the New Testament – as the devilOUR REAL struggle – Eph 6:12 – ARCHON Only one reference to Hebrew satan within the New Testament 2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of (Hebrew) Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. Even Icke never speaks the word "archon". Does a Jew speak the term "Archon", Does Friendman? I doubt this? “… some people call then demonic, some call them the serpent race, Islam calls them Jinn ..”Rob asks Dave "Where do bad messages come from? And Dave answers "Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, Rob exclaims really Dave, messages cannot be created? The verses you quote are about creating creatures Dave. Not the messages they choose to speak. DUH – and double DUH - Robert's level of academic seriousness
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2022 15:15:15 GMT -5
D"DUH – there are two groups – angels and archon R" The verses read G32 for both
Not G32 for good messengers and G746 for bad messengers.
So your premise is wrong.
D"REPEAT - D"ABSOLUTELY CORRECT – no created being ever changed his form or function (role within creation) against God’s Will then changed / altered / corrupted God’s Plan also against God’s Will R" So cherubs cannot sin than Dave. Is that your stand?
Yet you have agreed cherubs did sin, but were locked away from tempting anybody?
How is that fair to other cherubs who didn't sin?
Not fair? Makes God into a tyrant? These sinning cherubims obviously changed function, when from loving God to non-loving God, which is what sinning is, opposing God in a relationship to God, where God's presence flows less in your life.
But you refuse to discuss this with me, and make excuses that the cherubims took on some matter with entropy and couldn't help it, the matter made them sin, so it's God's fault for making matter with entropy? Really Dave, so your Gnostic religion can make sinning trivial, and for some creatures that can even be created sinning, or created flawed, which is what having yester RA in you means.
Now your god cannot create perfection, it has to come with flaws, as having yester ra in you is a flaw, an inclination to do bad things. Yet you argue this allows you to choose, yet I find no example of this if you study RA, it does not mean "choice". SO again your ideas are weird.
D"No human every changed into a completely different creature with a different role within creation R" No cherub has ever changed into completely different creature with a different role within creation either, so what are you talking about?
D"Man is the creature that can choose R" Cherubs can also can choose
So did a leopard choose not to eat the baby monkey after eating the mother. Most higher animals in life have this ability of choosing. Alex the gray parrot is on record for choosing, to be good or bad, to throw a tantrum or be nice, and show love. You seem to assume only man has the ability to reason or choose, you are dead wrong.
D"Angels do not have Free Will - their only choice is to serve and praise R" Explain than how some cherubims chose to sin than? Really Dave, you write some weird things.
D"Scripture says they are chained up R" Really Dave, so a chain of darkness, means they are really chained up, and remain sitting around for thousands of years waiting to be punished with eternal nonexistence.
Why Dave? What kind of God does this?
Why arn't humans chained up for sinning? Again your logic makes no sense.
How can a cheribum sin if it has no ability to choose?
I suppose you nit pick over word meaning, free will and choose is different? They couldn't help it? You play word games...You wrote this once before?
D"Scripture does NOT say this – only you do R" Are you daft? Scripture does say this?
Ezekiel 28 cherub chata, how clear does it have to be.
It also says the Shedim chata in 1 John 3: 8
Now I have two verses that say creatures apart from humans have sinned, "chata". Are you choosing to ignore Scripture?
Humans are NOT shedim, so some other creature sinned from the beginning, DUH
D"WOW – your depth of understanding is outstanding G746 - ἀρχή - chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank) R" Yes you quote many verses that prove G746 means (in various applications of order, time, place or rank)
but NOT a single verse that it means a CREATURE who was CREATED that way from the beginning.
I also asked you a question you did not answer?
Explain how a chain made out of darkness stops you from tempting humans to sin?
D"“… some people call then demonic, some call them the serpent race, Islam calls them Jinn .." R" Yes but do you have a video of some person calling them "Archons" ? My answer is no.
Because archons as a creature does not exist, its a term used to describe something unto somebody, ie "first in rank, or first in time, or first in power" So again you are wrong in your weird ideas.
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Rob makes a serious statement "Rob exclaims really Dave, messages cannot be created?
And Dave replies with "DUH – and double DUH - Robert's level of academic seriousness"
R" SO who needs to go back to elementary school now, grade 8? Your words I turn back on you?
I asked you where do bad messages come from?
(They are not created by God)
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Bad messages come from a sinless creature who reasons and speaks bad messages from choosing to do so. DO you agree with this idea Dave? Or are you choosing not to discuss this with me, and make excuses?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Oct 5, 2022 4:00:32 GMT -5
D"DUH – there are two groups – angels and archon R" The verses read G32 for both Thus Roberts word game Russia has soldiers Australia has soldiers Therefore Russia and Australia are on the same side Is this why you deny the evil happening in Ukraine?
D"REPEAT - D"ABSOLUTELY CORRECT – no created being ever changed his form or function (role within creation) against God’s Will then changed / altered / corrupted God’s Plan also against God’s Will R" So cherubs cannot sin than Dave. Is that your stand? Correct – angels were created to serve and praise
Yet you have agreed cherubs did sin, but were locked away from tempting anybody? How is that fair to other cherubs who didn't sin? Your fantasy The bane elohiym (archon) of Gen 6 – reproduced outside of their kind This was only 200 of the total
Not fair? Makes God into a tyrant? These sinning cherubims obviously changed function, when from loving God to non-loving God, which is what sinning is, opposing God in a relationship to God, where God's presence flows less in your life. The archon never loved God – they are entropy – they are corruption The Beast appeared – in a plurality – ready to devour
But you refuse to discuss this with me, All we have been doing for three years is discussing your two word doctrine from Ezk 28
Now your god cannot create perfection, it has to come with flaws, as having yester ra in you is a flaw, an inclination to do bad things. Yet you argue this allows you to choose, yet I find no example of this if you study RA, it does not mean "choice". SO again your ideas are weird.
Why do you teach that God’s commandment upon man is sin Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Why do you teach that a BLESSING from God is sin
D"No human every changed into a completely different creature with a different role within creation R" No cherub has ever changed into completely different creature with a different role within creation either, so what are you talking about? Except your perfect angels of God that changed into the ugly and gross looking demons
D"Angels do not have Free Will - their only choice is to serve and praise R" Explain than how some cherubims chose to sin than? Never happened – no cherub sinned
D"Scripture says they are chained up R" Really Dave, so a chain of darkness, means they are really chained up, and remain sitting around for thousands of years waiting to be punished with eternal nonexistence. They are being held – awaiting to be released once again to plague mankind – Rev 9
Why arn't humans chained up for sinning? Again your logic makes no sense. Because man was given the promise of GRACE – man receives Proportional Punishment 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
How can a cheribum sin if it has no ability to choose? It cannot
D"Scripture does NOT say this – only you do R" Are you daft? Scripture does say this? Ezekiel 28 cherub chata, how clear does it have to be. There IS your proof Angels have free will because they sinned in Ezk 28 and Ezk 28 proves angels sin because they have free will It is a circular argument based upon two word from one verse ------------------
D"“… some people call then demonic, some call them the serpent race, Islam calls them Jinn .." R" Yes but do you have a video of some person calling them "Archons" ? My answer is no. Because archons as a creature does not exist
Satan is probably so proud of you – deny our real struggle - deny scripture And you say Ellen White does not rewrite scripture
“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist” — Charles Baudelaire
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