Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 13:51:15 GMT -5
Greetings Dave and Richard
I will answer only a few of your queries. I am spending many hours thoughtfully and prayfully answering both of you, and yet you both do not consider me a serious Christian. This post took me over 6 hours to answer.
D" Yes Christ pre-existed in the invisivble heavens since the beginning
So when God created (Fathered ) Jesus Christ as the Son of man – he was making an image of something that pre-existed in heaven
A violation of the 10 Commandments written for man
R" Since Jesus pre-existed (you agree with me) thus Jesus is elohiym, and is not an image of elohiym, Jesus is elohiym. The command says we cannot vow down to matter, only that which is divine. So when Jesus , who is elohiym, adds humanity to His shape, this is not creating an image of elohiym, is it?
Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Here Jesus is quoting the first command, and adding three words to this command, that fit right into the second command. I am your Saviour, worship me.
No human comes unto the Father, except by the Son, Scripture says.
D" And that 7th day is still ongoing – but that is one of those questions you refuse to address
R" You pose a question but refuse to answer your own hypothesis. But you quip and chide me instead. Where does Scripture say the 7th day Sabbath is ongoing?
Heb 4:11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,
Clear to me Jesus, respects the day of ceasing, which here is termed His rest.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And in the new earth and new heaven, Shabbat times still run as God created them.
D" Just who created your god?
R" You are confusing "ab" to mean "father" hence a parent, hence a cause. The Hebrew word means "provider" and the uncaused provider, needs no further causation.
R" Sin is defined as transgressing the laws of love. Not disobeying GOD per se'
D" Nice catch all – sin can be anything you say it is
R"
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (KJV)
Sorry the term sin-offering is defined here.
As for the term "miss" or "chata", Numbers 21:4 onwards offers a clue to what "sin" or "missing" is.
Nu 21:4 ¶ And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way.
Is there a text explaining this discouragement
Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
5 ¶ I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
So this means the people no longer desired their Saviour (10) made false words against their Saviour (9)
Nu 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
The people wanted other food (6) and thus death (6) and grumbled over the lack of water (6)
SO Jesus allowed Satan, to bite them, killing many, since they wanted a different ruler ruling over them.
Nu 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people,
I suppose you read this as GOD volunteered for a lying medium to come and do his dirty work of making the people sin more. But if you read the passage carefully, Israel was already sinning, so the Saviour allows the Satan to continue ruling over them.
Nu 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD,
Notice the term missing here "sin" the people have spoken against the Lord.
Is this disobeying the Lord as you say? No, it's more like disrespecting the laws of love. Israel was transgressing the principles of love. They got proud, grumbled, disliked heavenly food, wanted better water, did not like the long walk. Got discouraged.
Hmm? Perhaps you define "disobey" to me? Isn't this just another way of saying they "transgressed" the moral Laws of love?
What you are trying to do Dave is remove the immutable royal moral LAW as binding even to GOD Himself.
Does Richard also agree with your idea? So the moral law is only binding to man?
Nu 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Notice Moses made a snake image, but the commandments says do not make images nor worship them, so what "saraph" was represented here? Two, one was an idol "false god" as you call it, and the other was a simile of Jesus, a saraph, who is divine, not an image of God, but elohiym our Saviour.
D" WOW – no there is no punishment for sin – no pain of death
R" Funny how I talk much about my view, but you write little. Instead you mock my view, while your view is rarely written.
The first death is a sleep, because GOD still resides with you, even though you sleep waiting to meet God face to face. The second death is where GOD permanently leaves you in a state of nonexistence because GOD is nowhere near you anymore. God's presence is a fire of love, that burns all the dross of sin. If it helps you to call it a punishment fine. I term the last events of God, his arms of love wrap around all humans, both straight and crooked, but only the straight are fireproof, the wicked are burned by God's love.
D" It was your god that lied to Adam
God never lied to Adam, if you eat of the tree I said not to eat, you will experience the second death, meaning I will depart from you forever. However after Adam sinned, and because the serpent tricked Adam to sin, Jesus offered to experience the second death for Adam, thus a divine pardon is available for those who repent and come to Jesus.
D" Then why do you present it - it your law that your god must follow
R" Because GOD is a logical GOD of law. Natural law and moral law. God can choose to override the running of natural law, hence a miracle is God overruling natural law, but normally natural laws prevail. All laws come from God, hence God is predictable and logical, and thus fair. God wrote the royal law with his own finger, TWICE, I might add.
So the royal words of GOD stand as immutable, and even GOD follows them. Darius the earthly king demonstrates this immutable law aspect in Daniel.
Dave posts from the past something Rob wrote" The Ten Commandments, then, stand for a
philosophy of law and government that is central to
the American system.
D" Now you are just not being honest – did you forget you posted it to make a point
Go back and read your own post - the entire thread
Do you no longer support you own reference?
R" What is wrong with what I said? Is not the USA a LAMB like power following GOD, and thus rose as a Christian nation under GOD? Is not the constitution of the USA immutable, as far as man is able to make it stand immutable?
Does not the Senate in the last days try to nullify the Constitution of the USA, even to the day? signs of the end of time? SO if I wrote wrong tell me plainly, if I write well, than testify to what I wrote without twisting my words?
D" OK so God’s messenger is the satan
R" It not saying that either, it says a messenger from elohiym stood to as an opposer to Baalim. (I do not like using the Hebrew term satan, now has a English meaning Satan, which the Hebrew word does not imply, the English term is oppose/Opposer)
If we went with the English/Hebrew term, than GOD is a Satan. Make no sense in English. However GOD is a satan in Hebrew, but in English we are supposed to translate Hebrew terms to English terms. Some Hebrew words like Amen are in English terms, and yet we have forgotten what the Hebrew word really meant. So in English Satan has become some bad creature, when it really means both a verb and a noun, to oppose/opposer.
Therefore this verse says GOD can function as an opposer of wicked men.
And in many NT contexts, an Opposer tries to rule over humans. In the NT, especially Rev this opposer is a fallen angel who sinned (ezek 28) texts you ignore.
D" Now – tell me why is is a sin for a messenger of God to stand as a satan
R" It's NOT a sin, the messenger is simply opposing the wicked prophet. Notice I agree with you here
Instead the messenger forces the wicked prophet to bless Israel instead.
D"These are not new questions I am overwhelming you with
These are an accunmulation of unanswered question by you
R" OK I will answer them, when I get time to do so. My wife says I am spending too much time with you, and we are both wasting time, when I could be worshiping God rather than witnessing for God. It's taking many hours to answer you these posts you make.
D" Not a two way discussion - not a study of scripture
R " You do not study the torah as much as I do, I follow sola scriptoria
You follow Gnostic writings a lot, that these writing dictate your torah you present.
So obviously we clash.
D" You only choose to defend your satan - Christian
R" Dave in my SDA background, we are taught to have nothing to do with Satan, nor are we allowed to speak much about Him or His ways. Instead I prefer to speak of Jesus and His ways of salvation. I was totally surprised to find you as a Messianic Jew does not even have a concept of a creature opposing God, causing a controversy over sinning.
Instead you claim Jews have no concept of Satan. You also say one must know the enemy. I have found you know more about archons and demigods and such evil spirits, than me. So how can you dare to say I defend all this?
You are defending your archon, stuff, using Gnostic writings and twisting Paul's writings that somehow the term even exists in the NT. I could say the same of you "You only choose to defend your Gnostism" - Modalism
Ask Richard, seeing he is your buddy and has posted little on your forum, here is a great question for Richard, Is Trinity the same as Modalism?
And to my understanding Jews follow monotheism. So what's the difference between modalism and monothesim. Any words of clarity are most welcome by me, from both of you.
---------------------
Dave wants answers to " OK show me the verses in Scripture that speak of these issues you raise. You have my fullest attention, DUH Robert – you are about a year behind – with this and so many questions
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/410/nt-errors
R" I have read the post, lots of questions.
I will spend some time answering this post you request ? OK. I have never considered this question before, so may take dozens of hours of study and prayer, OK?
---------------------------
Shalom
I will answer only a few of your queries. I am spending many hours thoughtfully and prayfully answering both of you, and yet you both do not consider me a serious Christian. This post took me over 6 hours to answer.
D" Yes Christ pre-existed in the invisivble heavens since the beginning
So when God created (Fathered ) Jesus Christ as the Son of man – he was making an image of something that pre-existed in heaven
A violation of the 10 Commandments written for man
R" Since Jesus pre-existed (you agree with me) thus Jesus is elohiym, and is not an image of elohiym, Jesus is elohiym. The command says we cannot vow down to matter, only that which is divine. So when Jesus , who is elohiym, adds humanity to His shape, this is not creating an image of elohiym, is it?
Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Here Jesus is quoting the first command, and adding three words to this command, that fit right into the second command. I am your Saviour, worship me.
No human comes unto the Father, except by the Son, Scripture says.
D" And that 7th day is still ongoing – but that is one of those questions you refuse to address
R" You pose a question but refuse to answer your own hypothesis. But you quip and chide me instead. Where does Scripture say the 7th day Sabbath is ongoing?
Heb 4:11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,
Clear to me Jesus, respects the day of ceasing, which here is termed His rest.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And in the new earth and new heaven, Shabbat times still run as God created them.
D" Just who created your god?
R" You are confusing "ab" to mean "father" hence a parent, hence a cause. The Hebrew word means "provider" and the uncaused provider, needs no further causation.
R" Sin is defined as transgressing the laws of love. Not disobeying GOD per se'
D" Nice catch all – sin can be anything you say it is
R"
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (KJV)
Sorry the term sin-offering is defined here.
As for the term "miss" or "chata", Numbers 21:4 onwards offers a clue to what "sin" or "missing" is.
Nu 21:4 ¶ And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way.
Is there a text explaining this discouragement
Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
5 ¶ I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
So this means the people no longer desired their Saviour (10) made false words against their Saviour (9)
Nu 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
The people wanted other food (6) and thus death (6) and grumbled over the lack of water (6)
SO Jesus allowed Satan, to bite them, killing many, since they wanted a different ruler ruling over them.
Nu 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people,
I suppose you read this as GOD volunteered for a lying medium to come and do his dirty work of making the people sin more. But if you read the passage carefully, Israel was already sinning, so the Saviour allows the Satan to continue ruling over them.
Nu 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD,
Notice the term missing here "sin" the people have spoken against the Lord.
Is this disobeying the Lord as you say? No, it's more like disrespecting the laws of love. Israel was transgressing the principles of love. They got proud, grumbled, disliked heavenly food, wanted better water, did not like the long walk. Got discouraged.
Hmm? Perhaps you define "disobey" to me? Isn't this just another way of saying they "transgressed" the moral Laws of love?
What you are trying to do Dave is remove the immutable royal moral LAW as binding even to GOD Himself.
Does Richard also agree with your idea? So the moral law is only binding to man?
Nu 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Notice Moses made a snake image, but the commandments says do not make images nor worship them, so what "saraph" was represented here? Two, one was an idol "false god" as you call it, and the other was a simile of Jesus, a saraph, who is divine, not an image of God, but elohiym our Saviour.
D" WOW – no there is no punishment for sin – no pain of death
R" Funny how I talk much about my view, but you write little. Instead you mock my view, while your view is rarely written.
The first death is a sleep, because GOD still resides with you, even though you sleep waiting to meet God face to face. The second death is where GOD permanently leaves you in a state of nonexistence because GOD is nowhere near you anymore. God's presence is a fire of love, that burns all the dross of sin. If it helps you to call it a punishment fine. I term the last events of God, his arms of love wrap around all humans, both straight and crooked, but only the straight are fireproof, the wicked are burned by God's love.
D" It was your god that lied to Adam
God never lied to Adam, if you eat of the tree I said not to eat, you will experience the second death, meaning I will depart from you forever. However after Adam sinned, and because the serpent tricked Adam to sin, Jesus offered to experience the second death for Adam, thus a divine pardon is available for those who repent and come to Jesus.
D" Then why do you present it - it your law that your god must follow
R" Because GOD is a logical GOD of law. Natural law and moral law. God can choose to override the running of natural law, hence a miracle is God overruling natural law, but normally natural laws prevail. All laws come from God, hence God is predictable and logical, and thus fair. God wrote the royal law with his own finger, TWICE, I might add.
So the royal words of GOD stand as immutable, and even GOD follows them. Darius the earthly king demonstrates this immutable law aspect in Daniel.
Dave posts from the past something Rob wrote" The Ten Commandments, then, stand for a
philosophy of law and government that is central to
the American system.
D" Now you are just not being honest – did you forget you posted it to make a point
Go back and read your own post - the entire thread
Do you no longer support you own reference?
R" What is wrong with what I said? Is not the USA a LAMB like power following GOD, and thus rose as a Christian nation under GOD? Is not the constitution of the USA immutable, as far as man is able to make it stand immutable?
Does not the Senate in the last days try to nullify the Constitution of the USA, even to the day? signs of the end of time? SO if I wrote wrong tell me plainly, if I write well, than testify to what I wrote without twisting my words?
D" OK so God’s messenger is the satan
R" It not saying that either, it says a messenger from elohiym stood to as an opposer to Baalim. (I do not like using the Hebrew term satan, now has a English meaning Satan, which the Hebrew word does not imply, the English term is oppose/Opposer)
If we went with the English/Hebrew term, than GOD is a Satan. Make no sense in English. However GOD is a satan in Hebrew, but in English we are supposed to translate Hebrew terms to English terms. Some Hebrew words like Amen are in English terms, and yet we have forgotten what the Hebrew word really meant. So in English Satan has become some bad creature, when it really means both a verb and a noun, to oppose/opposer.
Therefore this verse says GOD can function as an opposer of wicked men.
And in many NT contexts, an Opposer tries to rule over humans. In the NT, especially Rev this opposer is a fallen angel who sinned (ezek 28) texts you ignore.
D" Now – tell me why is is a sin for a messenger of God to stand as a satan
R" It's NOT a sin, the messenger is simply opposing the wicked prophet. Notice I agree with you here
Instead the messenger forces the wicked prophet to bless Israel instead.
D"These are not new questions I am overwhelming you with
These are an accunmulation of unanswered question by you
R" OK I will answer them, when I get time to do so. My wife says I am spending too much time with you, and we are both wasting time, when I could be worshiping God rather than witnessing for God. It's taking many hours to answer you these posts you make.
D" Not a two way discussion - not a study of scripture
R " You do not study the torah as much as I do, I follow sola scriptoria
You follow Gnostic writings a lot, that these writing dictate your torah you present.
So obviously we clash.
D" You only choose to defend your satan - Christian
R" Dave in my SDA background, we are taught to have nothing to do with Satan, nor are we allowed to speak much about Him or His ways. Instead I prefer to speak of Jesus and His ways of salvation. I was totally surprised to find you as a Messianic Jew does not even have a concept of a creature opposing God, causing a controversy over sinning.
Instead you claim Jews have no concept of Satan. You also say one must know the enemy. I have found you know more about archons and demigods and such evil spirits, than me. So how can you dare to say I defend all this?
You are defending your archon, stuff, using Gnostic writings and twisting Paul's writings that somehow the term even exists in the NT. I could say the same of you "You only choose to defend your Gnostism" - Modalism
Ask Richard, seeing he is your buddy and has posted little on your forum, here is a great question for Richard, Is Trinity the same as Modalism?
And to my understanding Jews follow monotheism. So what's the difference between modalism and monothesim. Any words of clarity are most welcome by me, from both of you.
---------------------
Dave wants answers to " OK show me the verses in Scripture that speak of these issues you raise. You have my fullest attention, DUH Robert – you are about a year behind – with this and so many questions
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/410/nt-errors
R" I have read the post, lots of questions.
I will spend some time answering this post you request ? OK. I have never considered this question before, so may take dozens of hours of study and prayer, OK?
---------------------------
Shalom