SDA Doctrine (as Robert Presents it) vrs Mainstream Christia

[Dave]

Jun 20, 2021 13:35:39 GMT -5 Richard said:

What happened to you buddy Dave?
Have you run him off?

My conversation with Robert was partly my error
1- We met in a Hebrew-centric linguistic forum – discussing Hebrew syntax
2- He spoke as a Christian – and was not well received there
3- I invited him to this forum – that has a greater tolerance level because I am esoteric

My error was in my assumption that
Robert is a Christian, or that he has studied all of scripture at a high level, and that he understood Hebrew translation.

Robert cannot translate – and he doesn’t even try – or care to learn
Robert might know specific areas of scripture that have been over emphasized to him – but he does not have a grasp of scripture as a whole
I assume that he is Christian – because he says so – but honestly, he argues against the very basic foundation precepts / principles of the faith

To be honest, Robert argues absolutes – then paints himself into corners that he cannot get out of – so he deflects and changes the subject.

You suggest that I wasted my time with him – I disagree for the following reasons
1- My witness is always on – I can do no other
2- Interesting thing about information – sometimes it needs to be repeated over and over, precept upon precept, line upon line

I worked in a very technical field – One of our senior leaders was from Vietnam, he would hold technical meetings and in-services – no one understood what he said. Other times several people can explain it to you – and you still don’t get it. Then someone else says the exact same words and suddenly – you get it.

3- Sometimes – our witness is not to the person we are speaking to. There are times when I have listened to you speak – thinking you were speaking to me / about me – when you weren’t.

4- Robert challenged me – to be accurate and consistent, precept upon precept, line upon line
If someone can show me error in my beliefs – I want to know – I will dig at the truth – doesn’t scare me at all.

To that I will say after all this time – I am unclear as to his real beliefs because his arguments were all over the place
Then – he says after two years – he may or may not even agree with his counter-argument views he post
Then – he admits that after discussing a video at length and allowing the discussion to build on that information – he admits – he never even watched the video – he has an excuse (no bandwidth)
Yet – much of our earlier discussion were based upon Video presentation by Hasidic Chabad Rabbi from the Hebrew Institute in Jerusalem – then Rabbi Friedman of Minnesota
Did he ever watch any of it – not certain –

On the other hand – when I did not finish all of his Walter Veith – I told him so
When he posted – “Does God do harm” video – I quoted it back to him because it supports everything I say – he admitted he never even watch it himself before he recommend I spend time with it
When he posted Don Patton – I watched it for three days and was willing to discuss it word for word – he was silent – unwilling to defend his own view because he is unable

Then he asked me recently – what does academic honesty mean

My daughters are in the 9th and 10th grades and they even giggled with embarrassment for Don Patton. How can anyone take him as credible?
The Answer – only as a preacher with a following – not as a scientist

AND for Creation Ministries who promote this crap
How can anyone take them as credible?
The Answer – only a small fundamental following – askew from the rest
However – it greatest educational impact upon the secular world is – ERROR of stupid and obvious false Christianity
Then in defense – Creationism refuses academic peer review

No wonder Robert doesn’t grasp the concept of academic honesty

Is Robert a serious theologian – NO – he isn’t even a serious student

My biggest concern for Robert – is his ease at disrespecting scripture. Never have I studied with anyone who would suggest – scripture doesn’t mean what it says – only the simile is real. And I have never studied with someone who is willing to misrepresent scripture to make a point. That to me is a respect for the word of God issue for me.

SDA Doctrine (as Robert Presents it) vrs Mainstream Christianity

Definition – Mainstream Christianity
First there were two types of Judaism at the time of Jesus Christ
Pharisees who believe in spirit and the afterlife who question Jesus in Private
Sadducees who run the Temple and teach Law and the grave that accused Jesus in public

Jesus Christ came for the Jews First – then the Gentile
His followers were Jewish – all the people at Pentecost were Jewish – the First Christians were Jewish – The First Christians were Messianic Jewish – which spreads into the gentile population in different ways

The early Church was not organized – each apostle or disciple – has his own following – the Gospels were not well published and evenly distributed

Some churches developed around Mark and Peter – Coptic Egypt
Some churches developed around Paul – Rome
Some Churches developed around Luke – Greek Orthodox
And in all of them – John is the spiritual mystic

Rome Catholicism is a man-made organization to exert authority over God’s word and Christianity
And Western Roman Christendom today is based upon this Rome-centric version
The first move by thus new Roman authority – eliminate the First Christians who were Messianic Jews and gather all the writing and edit them into the read only and do not read piles
Then for the first 1500 years – The Roman Church would not even let you read it for your self

Why – because a Messianic Jew is free – ungovernable
Just imagine the Pope ordering a bunch of the First Messianic Christian to go Crusade against somebody
Real Christians should object – turn the other cheek – be willing to die rather cause another’s death

Just imagine the Pope ordering a bunch of the First Messianic Christian to show up on Sunday for Communion administerated by an authorized preist?

The Gospel of Phillip
Some are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing.

Luther was a good beginning to the reformation process, but differs from the mainstream on the issue of Christology as represented in Calvinism.

(wiki) Reformed theologians affirm the historic Christian belief that Christ is eternally one person with a divine and a human nature. Reformed Christians have especially emphasized that Christ truly became human so that people could be saved. Christ's human nature has been a point of contention between Reformed and Lutheran Christology.

YES – Main steam Christianity = Reformed Church
Today – Lutheranism – although respected – is a sub-group within the mainstream

(wiki) Traditionally, Reformed theologians have also followed the medieval tradition going back to before the early church councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon on the doctrine of the Trinity. God is affirmed to be one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Son (Christ) is held to be eternally begotten by the Father and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeding from the Father and Son

Robert and his SDA say – three gods working together in a family unit = one Godhead
100% opposite to the mainstream theology - one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
A phrase first coined by a Roman Bishop Valentinus – that later became considered a Gnostic and banned

#1 There is only One True God
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
God = the Father / God = the Spirit / God = the Son

#2 Man = a spiritual being having a physical souljourn on earth and will return to God after our mortal death – From God we came and to God we will return

#3 There is no evolution – Gen 1
God made the bacteria – gave them a role in the ecosystem – and they do what they do
God made the birds – gave them a role in the ecosystem – and they do what they do
God made the sharks – gave them a role in the ecosystem – and they do what they do
God made man – gave them a role in the ecosystem = dominion – and we do what we do

All of this is animal / world / brain work / intelligence
Is a cow more intelligent than bacteria?
A Chimpanzee is more intelligent than a cow – it is true
And man is at the top pf this intelligent tool making opposing thumb hierarchy of intelligence and ability Yes it is true – man was given dominion

#4 Man is spirit – the image of God
Intelligence has nothing to do with the Gift of Free Will
Gen 2:7 God mated spirit being man with animal man – and man became a living being
Man became (spirit man + animal) = (spirit the home of yester tov + animal and it instinct for yester ra)
Man = (yester tov + yester ra) / (spirit +(Intelligent Body)) / (spirit + (Mind/Body))

Man is the only creature that is (yester tov + yester ra)
Man is the only creature that can choose

This is also how Jesus Christ can be 100% Divine + 100% man (animal)
Jesus Christ = Christ Jesus = (Christ + Jesus) – (Christ = (animal, Mind/Body)) = (Christ + (Jesus))

God made man in His image = (spirit +(Mind/Body))
Christ pre-existed his mortal conception – souljourned among man as a man to witness Jer 1:5 – then he returned to God
From God we came – and to God we return

Robert absolutely denies the spirit – man is just an animal with memories – man is just the HS
When scripture says The Spirit witness to our spirit – Robert says it is just the HS empowering the HS within us
When scripture says – an animal’s spirit goes to the dust, but the spirit of man returns to God – Robert says this is just the HS

OK – when asked about those that can kill body and HS and send the HS to hell
He doesn’t answer
My next question for him would be – what about evil spirits – are they evil HSs?
But he will never answer – because he has no answer within his SDA doctrine

#5 Robert denies that Jesus Christ was God incarnate
How could God on earth pray to God on the throne he asks
Robert even preaches that Christ died upon the Cross

The Apocalypse of Peter - The Nag Hammadi Library
"For many will accept our teaching in the beginning. And they will turn from them again by the will of the Father of their error, because they have done what he wanted. And he will reveal them in his judgment, i.e., the servants of the Word. But those who became mingled with these shall become their prisoners, since they are without perception. And the guileless, good, pure one they push to the worker of death, and to the kingdom of those who praise Christ in a restoration. And they praise the men of the propagation of falsehood, those who will come after you. And they will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law."

"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."

"For some of them will blaspheme the truth and proclaim evil teaching. And they will say evil things against each other. Some will be named: (those) who stand in (the) strength of the archons

#6 Spirit is eternal – the image of God
Robert pretends he disagrees – because God is only eternal no beginning and no end
Sorry Robert – for the rest of God’s creation he is the beginning of our reality
Spirit – created by God as the host of the heavens on day 1 (Gen 2:4) will never die, unless God puts it to death in the Lake of Fire
Angels are spirit – they will never die unless God puts them to death in the Lake of Fire

Robert says this is proof of his satanology and the Fallen Angels because satan is cast into Lake of Fire (Rev 20) – therefore this is proof that angels have the free will to change allegiances – and start a war in heaven against God

All of his theology rest on the fact that the word satan is his Catholic fallen angel
When in Fact – the term satan can be used of any creature that is accusing
And – Robert totally dismisses the identity of the Beast of Revelations or his devil

Is the Beast a satan – sure
Is the devil a satan – sure
Are evil spirits satans - sure
Are false prophets satans – sure
Are some men satans – sure

And none of this has to do with the satan of the ahl – who is God’s prosecutor
1 Kings a volunteer spirit offers to be a deceiving spirit for the Lord
1 Chr 21 + 2 Sam 24 = God is satan or satan is working for God
The entire Book of Job – satan does exactly what God request and obey God’s boundaries

Over and over I asked Robert - Why is it a sin to obey God?
Robert refuses to answer – because he cannot – if he did his SDA crap would all be nonsense
His best answer so far was – well, man deserved it – but that was never the question

#7 precept upon precept, line upon line
Isn’t it interesting that Robert is the guy who brought this principle to the forum
The Robert method – word upon word – no polysemy
And now – he preaches that scripture doesn’t mean what it says and to hell with precept upon precept in favor of a hard line about one two word from two different sentences – cherub chata

Dec 27, 2019 16:33:38 GMT -5 @robertt said:

So the opponent is only an opponent to Job, in Job's story? Fair enough[/
So where would you go looking to see if "opponent" actually "opposes" GOD?
Line upon line, here and there, remember, how to read Scripture?

All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, I need only one verse, apart from Ezek , I have Rev 12. There was war in heaven?

At least we have discovered the value of line by line – it doesn’t matter if it goes against Catholic doctrine

#8 The Error of fallen Angel satanology
First it teaches that you can fall from God’s Grace – God’s grace is defined as he loves us ever this we are sinners – so much so that John 3:16 – how can anything in creation fall from God’s grace – ridicules

Secondly – it teaches evolution (opened the door to evolution) satan was once created only to praise and serve – then changed himself – morphed into an different type of being
No cow ever changed into a pig – zero tolerance for evolution in any form

Thirdly – it teaches that a full third of God’s angels also underwent some evolutionary change
zero tolerance for evolution in any form
Remember #3 There is no evolution – Gen 1
God made the bacteria – gave them a role in the ecosystem – and they do what they do
God made the sharks – gave them a role in the ecosystem – and they do what they do
God made man – gave them a role in the ecosystem = dominion – and we do what we do

Fourthly – if satan and all his angels hate God / oppose God / works against God
How can he explain the satan of the ahl – who is God’s prosecutor
1 Kings a volunteer spirit offers to be a deceiving spirit for the Lord
1 Chr 21 + 2 Sam 24 = God is satan or satan is working for God
The entire Book of Job – satan does exactly what God request and obey God’s boundaries

Over and over I asked Robert - Why is it a sin to obey God?
Robert refuses to answer – because he cannot – if he did his SDA crap would all be nonsense

Fifthly – It preaches a weak God – because he cannot hang onto a creation He made deliberately to praise and serve Him – thereby preaching a strong satan that can take it away from God
God tried to create perfection – but it got away from God and now opposes God – preaches a weak God

Sixthly – It denies that God is in Control
Gospel of Phillip – the Nah Hammaid Library
For it is because of this that the whole place stands, whether the good or the evil, the right and the left. The Holy Spirit shepherds everyone and rules all the powers, the "tame" ones and the "wild" ones, as well as those which are unique.

Hypostasis of the Archon – The Nag Hammadi Library
Now all these things came to pass by the will of the father of the entirety. Afterwards, the spirit saw the soul-endowed man upon the ground. And the spirit came forth from the Adamantine Land; it descended and came to dwell within him, and that man became a living soul. … But it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being …

Authoritative Teaching – the Nag Hammadi Library
And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.

He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.

And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the world

#9 Vegetarian Sharks
At first I thought he was just pulling my leg – but he defense his view that before Adam – there was no ra of any type – not a single volcano or earthquake – no weeds with thorns – no carnivores

Again – this is just more creationism Ministry crap designed to dilute and pollute Christianity as a whole

Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned.
Rom 5:13 For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law.

Sorry Robert – there was lots of sin in the world before Adam according to scripture
Sorry Robert – there was lots of the natural cycle of birth/life/death/and rebirth before Adam
Sorry Robert – the secular evidence is insurmountable and in agreement with “Incremental Creation”

#10 6 Days of Creation
Robert argued the Hebrew means 6 - 24 hour periods – absolute - and we are a young earth
Then later changed to we are a young earth but it seemed longer

What changed when Eve choose to disobey the one and only existing Commandment / order / law
Law entered the world – and now “KNOWING THE DOFFERENCE BETWEEN TOV and RA” are judge by the Law

When I asked him about Paul’s ongoing 7th Day – how can Paul – who was raised a Hebrew Jew use the word wrong? Or differently? How can it be 24 hrs?
Robert refuse to answer and the topic changed

#11 to whom do we praise
Robert says – that satan was the guy that single handedly rewrote all biology everywhere in defiance to God. He even said once that when he looks at the world all he can see is the result of sin upon the world with all its ra

Yet Scripture says
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. In unrighteousness they suppress the truth,
Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse—
Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, their thinking became futile, and their senseless hearts were made dark.

Most men see the Intelligent Design (Divine Design) in creation

Does Robert glorify God by what he sees – or his satan re-creator?

#11 to whom do we praise
#1 There is only One True God

Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers(archon) or authorities(Principalities) . All was created through Him and for Him.

God created everything - created through Him and for Him.

But - Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned.
Rom 5:13 For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law.

Now man is under the CURSE OF THE LAW
Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.”

God created everything - created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers(archon) or authorities(Principalities) . All was created through Him and for Him.

Satan’s seed – the word satan is not in scripture – the subject of the discourse is still the serpent
Who is the serpent’s seed / offspring
The Great Red Dragon of Rev 12:3 with its hierarch of powers 10 horns and seven crowns
The Beast who is also called the devil – that old serpent – who are also call satans because of their function within God’s ecosystem

The offspring (bane elihiym) of Gen 6 that father the Nephilim that father the Rephiem (the 7 Tribes of Amorite – the Sons of Anak)that father the 13 families that rule the planet today – because they still have the genetic link to the invisible powers that control / influence / possess / use them

These are still the same Nephilim that are ½ breed humanoid creatures that were ejected to the 7 visible celestial orbs – Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn? – Planet X? – Planet Nebiru?

Question – why is every “other” major religion of the ancient world based upon space gods, that came in family units, had offspring with mortal man – genetically manipulated mortal man – who fathered demi-gods and chimeras, and fought amongst themselves and used man in their petty wars.
AND WHY – did all these ancient God’s require houses (Temples) and food (sacrifices) on a regular bases

Question – who are the 33 ‘other gods’ non-God gods mentioned in the ahl – real or fake and who are they?
Answer – the Great Red Dragon of Rev 12:3 came with a hierarchy of offspring
The Beast (the First Archon) gave rise to offspring – the first = generals in his kingdom – and then more
Rev 12:7 says the Great Red Dragon was cast from heaven
Gnostic Cathars saw this as the birth of physical creation – which is the corruption

Mohammed placed all the Canaanite ‘other gods’ of the Levant into Kabal and declared that Allah was their supreme leader
To the Question – who is Allah – Robert failed to answer

Even after I showed him that Beelzebub was the god of the Philistines of the Gaza strip that now bow to Allah – he refused to answer

Always – he redirects the conversations focus back upon cherub chata and his satan god
Keep our attention away from – our real struggle
Robert even went on a long corruption of the word of God trying to deny the reality of the principalities (archon) and their ruling power above

I am a Gnostic Christian and a student of the Nag Hammadi Library
Matter was created - Then Great Red Dragon (The First Archon) is just the First “creature” made with some matter – who awoke only to see the matter before him and thought himself alone and therefore the first

Now man is under the CURSE of Gen 3:15 - 19
Gen 3:14 Adonai Elohim said to the serpent, “Because you did this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and above every animal of the field. On your belly will you go, and dust will you eat all the days of your life.
Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will crush his heel.”
Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly increase your pain from conception to labor. In pain will you give birth to children. Your desire will be toward your husband, yet he must rule over you.”
Gen 3:17 Then to the man He said, “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate of the tree which I commanded you, saying, ‘You must not eat of it’: Cursed is the ground because of you—with pain will you eat of it all the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Thorns and thistles will sprout for you. You will eat the plants of the field,
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow will you eat food, until you return to the ground, since from it were you taken. For you are dust, and to dust will you return.”

Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned.

All men are under the Law now and none are worthy – none righteous – no not one
Is it a struggle between God and satan – no
It is a struggle between man and the serpent’s seed – the offspring of the Great Red Dragon – the First Archon
The struggle is between man and the archon (aka Principalities / shedim / Rephiem / Nephilim)

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers (archon), against the powers (Principalities), against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

However - Now man is also under the PROMISE of Gen 3:15
The seed of Eve = The Son of Man – Jesus Christ – and the offer of salvation by Divine Pardon

#12 – The Left Hand of God
Robert has his panties all in a wad because Gnostic literature says –

The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library
"Within limitless realms dwells incorruptibility. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.

Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me"

If God is One – Robert how can God HS do something without God Father knowing

Mat 6:3 But when you do tzedakah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

Question How can ma do this?
Answer – it is done in secret

Anyone can tithe and brag about it – your reward is from your fellow man
But to feed the hungry alone in the dark with recognition – your reward is from God

Jews say – the Right Hand is the Hand of instruction and salvation / deliverance
And the Left hand is the Hand of Mystery

There are plenty of Gnostic verse saying that – there is only – One True Creator

Sixthly – It denies that God is in Control
Gospel of Phillip – the Nah Hammaid Library
For it is because of this that the whole place stands, whether the good or the evil, the right and the left. The Holy Spirit shepherds everyone and rules all the powers, the "tame" ones and the "wild" ones, as well as those which are unique.

Hypostasis of the Archon – The Nag Hammadi Library
Now all these things came to pass by the will of the father of the entirety.

Authoritative Teaching – the Nag Hammadi Library
And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.

He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear,

It is only complicated – if Robert chooses to make it complicated

Jun 5, 2020 22:39:50 GMT -5 Richard said:

Jun 5, 2020 18:55:58 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Dave writes: "See – you have two Kings and two gods
Yes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. What's wrong with that?

#13 My concern about Robert is his belief that one verse – or two words – can outweigh the message of the bulk of scripture

Obviously – scripture never contradicts itself – and is always consistent – so if Robert has one verse that doesn’t fit the whole – then he just not understand that verse

#14 Tammuz – If Robert is a serious student – why can’t he speak to the reality of Tammuz
The absolute #1 false religion that plagued the Jews since ancient times – sine the Tower of Babel
The religion that Ezekiel calls the ABOMINATION
Born on the winter equinox – Dec 25th followed by 40 days of weeping for Tammuz before Ishtar returns at the spring equinox and the sacrifice of a pig with Easter eggs.

#15 if Robert is a serious student – why can’t he speak to the Jewish reality before Christ with any sense of accuracy
Robert did not understand that God was testing Israel all through the ahl
Robert denied that God was in control of everything that happed – and it all happened for a reason
Every Jew in the world – yesterday and today – understand that the trials of this worlds are test and obstacles for man to overcome in our path back to the bosom of God
Every Jew sees satan – as a good angel doing the work of a heavenly prosecutor
And every Jew of the time of Jesus understood who Beelzebub and his offspring were
Every Jew at the time of Jesus was also familiar with the Book of Enoch – it is quoted 64 times in the agl
Today – why can’t Robert tell the difference between a Talundic Jew and a Hasidic Jew

In the end – Robert chooses SDA doctrine over scripture as a whole
Therefore he only knows SDA doctrine and doesn’t grasp the whole
This is not the actions of a serious student – or a learned theologian – or a scholar of the word.
If Robert reads this – I hope he is not offened
Only your friends – are honest with you – other will just tune you out

#16 – end times
Robert is worried about the world and Covid Vaccines and laws and restrictions
Yet – will not commit to 1948 Israel being prophetic
He speaks of the 1947 Dead Sea Scrolls as validates of sorts
But 1945 Nag Hammadi Library – that must be error

#17 Is the SDA a CULT
Robert certainly holds the words of (1850s) Ellen White above scripture
The wife of an X-Elder of a failed end-times cult called the Millerites (1830s)
How is this different than Mormons hold the words of Joseph Smith (1830s) above scripture
Or the words of Charles Taze Russell (1860) for the Jehovah Witness

I say look at the timing – and all of it preaches a message that is anti-Messianic Jewish / as the First Christians were – the very religion of all the disciples and First Apostles of Christ Himself

[Deleted]

Greetings Dave

I finally got my dongle back (so of) it now functions as a WiFi not sure for how long?

I need to re-read our posts and go over the 1200 posts we made to reflect:

You are just 2hrs – (sometimes 6) of my day
I have so many projects going on – sometime I shut down
I pull open your post – and initially think – here we go again (being honest)
But as I begin to respond – I become energized
My girls worry about me

I type type type – then stand up and pace – then sit back down and pound the keyboard
The girls ask – are you mad at him? – NO – I am just excited at what I am saying
I am witness for the Lord – it makes me alive

It is never a burden – it is always refreshment

You write a lot of things on this post, way too many to consider.
I would never write badly of you despite your views, I wished you consider me the same...oh well... as you say "I hope you are not offended"

I am a Gnostic Christian and a student of the Nag Hammadi Library

That is a good summary of why we are different Dave. I have never considered Gnostic writings before.

My biggest concern for Robert – is his ease at disrespecting scripture. Never have I studied with anyone who would suggest – scripture doesn’t mean what it says – only the simile is real. And I have never studied with someone who is willing to misrepresent scripture to make a point. That to me is a respect for the word of God issue for me.

This is offensive Dave, I regard the Hebrew torah as holy, and inspired of GOD. The King James translation into English is a really excellent translation. My only problem is the occasional use of other English words for the same Hebrew word, suggesting the Hebrew has multiple meanings. However the Hebrew word is broad in its meaning. So I call this a fuzzy writing, does not ever negate it's holy inspired message. You mention Matt and Luke differ in their birth timing of Jesus. I would disagree, as Scripture is always correct. The problem is one of not understanding all the history. Overall I find the common received torah inspired, all of it is worthy of study and respect.

Now I will give you an example of what you do with Scripture and what I do with Scripture.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

God declares Job perfect, upright, fears GOD and avoids RA.

And what does Satan say about God's declaration?

Are prosecutors supposed to disagree with God's declaration of a human?
Are prosecutors supposed to oppose God's declaration that a human is saved?

God already declared this human is perfect so the case is closed. So why is a prosecutor supposed to reopen the case?

Notice the prosecutor is allowed to attack Job further and make him sin against GOD? Is this the function of a prosecutor? NO. We call this a conflict of interest and not allowed.

Therefore a simple reading of the these verses tells you that Satan is not functioning here as a prosecutor, but an accuser.

Do you, Dave; agree Satan opposes God's declaration of Job?

The Hebrew word "satan" means to oppose. And in this sentence, the Opposer is opposing God's declaration that Job is perfect, as we would expect the word to mean.

Now you raise another theme and say why does the opponent obey the Lord than and do his opposing within boundaries?

Well in a tennis match the two opponents oppose each other and play tennis according to rules set by the judge watching over the opposing players. It means a higher authority is in control.

Is it normal for example for court prosecutors to help you do crimes against the law, than prosecute you for doing those crimes? That is a conflict of interest and against the law.

Clearly this Satan being is opposing salvation in mankind, thus also opposing GOD who runs and administrates this salvation process.

Normally a court prosecutor only attacks the human after they have done all their deeds against the law, the judge only watches over the proceedings. But that is not how GOD runs his dealings with humans. God is the judge who judges and books are written of every sin and every good thing you ever do.

Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Here both noun and verb forms of satan are in the same sentence. We could read the sentence as

Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger Jesus-LORD, and Prosecutor standing at his right hand to prosecute Joshua.

If you read the Day of Atonement issue (a figure of this story) there is no provision for a prosecutor in the judgement of the high priest declaring humans as saved. God does not need one. In fact requiring one suggests GOD is a weak judge.

So what is this story saying than

Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger Jesus-LORD, and Accuser standing at his right hand to accuse Joshua.

Why does an accuser accuse? Because the human is leaving his kingdom and going over to God's kingdom.

Is there a Bible text for this idea?

Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(KJV)

Strangely enough both noun and verb forms are in this verse.

Re 12:12 ¶ Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Notice the devil is our accuser.

And who does the accuser attack most? The man child.

Why? Because the man child is going to rescue sinners from the accusers kingdom.

Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

We humans are saved by the man child...

But the dragon, the devil, the accuser is angry over this idea. So wars over anybody seeking salvation from GOD.

I am a Gnostic Christian and a student of the Nag Hammadi Library

This might explain Dave why you do not follow Scripture as easily as I do. You are swayed by other writings, while I am not. I follow sola scriptoria.


When I asked him about Paul’s ongoing 7th Day – how can Paul – who was raised a Hebrew Jew use the word wrong? Or differently? How can it be 24 hrs?
Robert refuse to answer and the topic changed

Please state the verse Paul wrote and clarify your claim.

My daughters are in the 9th and 10th grades and they even giggled with embarrassment for Don Patton. How can anyone take him as credible?

Since you watched Don Paton videos, list some of his claims one at a time, and we will discuss them. "How old is the Earth - Creation or Evolution - Seminar by Don Patton" let's begin with this video you watched.

youtu.be/Ncxikycht_U

I have this one hour video downloaded on my computer, in fact all of Don's videos.

Feel free to attack the video principles.

For your information, I believe our earth is not much older than 6,000 years. A Young Earth Creationist , following Jonathan Saretti and the Creation Ministries based in Queensland. Not the Ken Ham website you think is the same.



Does Robert glorify God by what he sees?

Absolutely I do. I am a gardener and I love gardening. I see GOD is all the flowers, and trees and the buds. I do not see the thorns and weeds and the compost dying under the living. My focus is on GOD all the time and His creation, though marred by sin, still testifies to His glorious handiwork and I praise God for we are fearfully and wonderfully made.


I love my gardening. Here I grow cabbages using goose pooh and sea shells. And for my skill using aquaponics, which God gives me;  I give God the glory for our cabbages growing. 

Happy Shabbath Dave. May you enjoy the warm weather while we endure the colder weather.
Still the peaches bloom here in mid or early winter. God is good.

Shalom

[Dave]

I would never write badly of you despite your views, I wished you consider me the same...oh well... as you say "I hope you are not offended"
If my views are honest – then how can it be badly of you
Do you translate? Do you study all of scripture – or just single verses? Do you make up your own translation tyhe3n play word games with it to validate your own doctrine.
And are you just guilty of posting rubbish here – views you don’t even support
Are you guilty of talking about things without doing the research (watching the video)
And – when will you spend some time answering questions – instead of just asking them

I am a Gnostic Christian and a student of the Nag Hammadi Library
That is a good summary of why we are different Dave. I have never considered Gnostic writings before.
The Nag Hammadi was authored by Messianic Jews - like John, Paul, Peter, James, Phillip, and Thomas
The Nag Hammadi is very Jewish compliant – consistent with Jewish Theology
You have never considered Hebrew writings before.

Roman Christendom is not consistent with Jewish Theology – Messianic Judaism has been replaced by the Catholic Church and it doctrine of Fallen Angels

My biggest concern for Robert – is his ease at disrespecting scripture. Never have I studied with anyone who would suggest – scripture doesn’t mean what it says – only the simile is real. And I have never studied with someone who is willing to misrepresent scripture to make a point. That to me is a respect for the word of God issue for me.

This is offensive Dave, I regard the Hebrew torah as holy, and inspired of GOD.
Then why do you deliberately twist it to means something other than what it says
Why do you preach – you cannot trust scripture as written – you must change it into a simile

The King James translation into English is a really excellent translation.
The original KJV was crap – full of errors
Your modern version has been edited many times – and if you have a good study KJV – it is packed with marginal readings – that you ignore when you play your word games

My only problem is the occasional use of other English words for the same Hebrew word, suggesting the Hebrew has multiple meanings.
Many times word are uses differently by different authors – it is called cultural drift over time – you ignore it
Many times several words are built upon the same root – but mean different things – you also ignore this
Sometimes the word is negated, used as an adjective, or the object of a preposition - and you ignore all of this
Sometimes the word is used literally and sometime in poetry – you ignore the difference

You mention Matt and Luke differ in their birth timing of Jesus. I would disagree, as Scripture is always correct.
How can you disagree – when you have refused to discuss it

Now I will give you an example of what you do with Scripture

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

God declares Job perfect, upright, fears GOD and avoids RA. - Yes

And what does Satan say about God's declaration?
Are prosecutors supposed to disagree with God's declaration of a human?
Are prosecutors supposed to oppose God's declaration that a human is saved?

If God asked to for your council – would you lie to him
What satan said back to God is 100% perfectly the next logical question
Why would God ask satan his opinion if God though satan is just a liar

God already declared this human is perfect so the case is closed. So why is a prosecutor supposed to reopen the case?
satan didn’t – God brought it up and commanding the testing of Job

Notice the prosecutor is allowed to attack Job further and make him sin against GOD? Is this the function of a prosecutor? NO. We call this a conflict of interest and not allowed.
You are lost and confused – because you cannot tell the difference between the satan of the ahl and the archon whom he has use of as a tool – and you refuse to even examine the difference

Therefore a simple reading of the these verses tells you that Satan is not functioning here as a prosecutor, but an accuser.
You are lost and confused – because you cannot tell the difference between the satan of the ahl and the archon whom he has use of as a tool– and you refuse to even examine the difference

Do you, Dave; agree Satan opposes God's declaration of Job?
No Robert – a question is not a sin – are you opposing God by all your questions?

The Hebrew word "satan" means to oppose. And in this sentence, the Opposer is opposing God's declaration that Job is perfect, as we would expect the word to mean.
The Hebrew word "satan" means to accuse – you are the only one who makes it mean oppser

Is it normal for example for court prosecutors to help you do crimes against the law, than prosecute you for doing those crimes? That is a conflict of interest and against the law.
You are lost and confused – because you cannot tell the difference between the satan of the ahl and the archon whom he has use of as a tool– and you refuse to even examine the difference

Notice the devil is our accuser.
Please make up your mind
Are you talking about the devil or the satan of the ahl?
You are lost and confused – because you cannot tell the difference between the satan of the ahl and the archon whom he has use of as a tool– and you refuse to even examine the difference

Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Yes Robert – God uses the archon as a tool for Gen 3:15

When I asked him about Paul’s ongoing 7th Day – how can Paul – who was raised a Hebrew Jew use the word wrong? Or differently? How can it be 24 hrs?
Robert refuse to answer and the topic changed

Please state the verse Paul wrote and clarify your claim.

Why don’t you just finish what you started?
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/post/2462/quote/305

Sept 14, 2019 12:45:08 GMT -5 Dave said:

Heb 4:9-11 Paul indicates that the Lord's 7th day of rest continues
Still going on - along side of our 365 day, years, and centuries
(Time from man's perspective - linear -- Time from God's perspective - different scale)
If we forget the 24 hr day idea - and adopt a more non-linear perspective of time
aeon = Greek = time period - just like circa 1920 = in the aeon of the 1920s

My daughters are in the 9th and 10th grades and they even giggled with embarrassment for Don Patton. How can anyone take him as credible?
Since you watched Don Paton videos, list some of his claims one at a time, and we will discuss them. "How old is the Earth - Creation or Evolution - Seminar by Don Patton" let's begin with this video you watched.
Feel free to attack the video principles.

Why don’t you just finish what you started?
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/492/don-patton-creation-ministries

Apr 2, 2021 0:53:22 GMT -5 Dave said:

Final opinion of Don Patton

He is not an honest scientist and he does not present other people’s opinions honestly
He makes incorrect statement about other people’s science – then treats his incorrect version as fact
Patton’s Spider is a deception of the truth
He makes many ‘false correlations’

What is the result of guys like him to the faith?
Please take this video and my comments to any science teacher – of any level – and ask their opinion
Please grade me –
All educated people will think this guy a buffoon

Will they then take the call to come up and commit their lives to God over this video – NO
The result of the video just makes Christendom stupid and in error

What do we think of all those crazies that were worried about Y2K
What do we think of all those crazies that were worried about 2012
What do we think of the crazies that flowed Harold camp on 11/11/2011 when nothing happened
What do we think of all those crazies that flowed Miller onto a mountain top

The exact same thing we think of Don Patton’s message – error and invalid
This is what the world has come to see from Roman Christendom – error and invalid
Lie to me - and I'll think you a liar and eventually you become invalid altogether
This is also why creation scientist do not allowed peer review of their work
This is also why Creation science just harms the faith

Does Robert glorify God by what he sees?
Absolutely I do.
But all you see is a flawed world filled with ra from sin
Or are you officially changing your position?

I did notice that of all the honest criticism – you chose to defend the strong authority of your satan god
To the rest you say - You write a lot of things on this post, way too many to consider.

[Dave]

Jun 20, 2021 23:24:43 GMT -5 Dave said:

I would never write badly of you despite your views, I wished you consider me the same...oh well... as you say "I hope you are not offended"

My dad would have said – just calling a spade a spade
My intent is not to insult or offend
My intent is to get you to up your game
If you wish to be taken seriously - speak seriously

[Dave]

Jun 20, 2021 23:24:43 GMT -5 Dave said:

I am a Gnostic Christian and a student of the Nag Hammadi Library
That is a good summary of why we are different Dave. I have never considered Gnostic writings before.
The Nag Hammadi was authored by Messianic Jews - like John, Paul, Peter, James, Phillip, and Thomas
The Nag Hammadi is very Jewish compliant – consistent with Jewish Theology
You have never considered Hebrew writings before.

You never knew Judaism as a religion - You fail to understand Judaism as a religion
The only thing you seem to know about Judaism is the Christian Church version
You deny anything that is ancient Hebrew - except that which Rome has edited for you
and you brag of that fact

If all you listen to is China - then then Tiawan is the enemy
If all you listen to is Trump - China is the enemy
If all you listen to is Clinton - Russia is the enemy

The Roman Catholic claimed itself the enemy of Judaism at the Council of Lydeocea
Shall I repeat the Canon for you yet again?

No one ever even considered the satan of the ahl as anything other than a servant of the Lord

All of your Fallen Angel satan Worship was not invented until Rome invented it after 365AD
Roman Catholic is an entirely different religion than messianic Judaism as practiced by the disciples and apostles

All of it has been CHANGED into something different that is an ABOMINATION
Dec 25th + Easter Sunday with ham and Easter eggs - even 40 days of lent

Judaism = One God Only who is absolute
Messianic Judaism = Only God Only who is the Messiah and he did not come to change one letter of the Torah
Every Jew desires a Personal relationship with his Creator - it is spiritual - Pentecost - the Harvest

The SDA has 3 gods + another god of evil and the most important verse in your bag of tricks = cherub chata - and deny the spirit with a passion
ABSOLUTELY OPPOSITE - OPPOSING - the Faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the Messiah

I know who you are

[Deleted]

Greetings Dave

You have written an enormous pile of material one has to work through. Too much.

So forgive if I pick out a few.

D"The Nag Hammadi was authored by Messianic Jews - like John, Paul, Peter, James, Phillip, and Thomas

(1) First no where in the torah does the term "messanic jew" exist, so please explain using a Bible verse?

(2) John, Paul, Peter, James, Phillip, and Thomas would have been called G5546, a Greek term meaning "Christian" a term invented in Antioch. There are 3 verses that use this term.

What is the difference between a Messanic Jew and a Christian?

Maybe this verse speaks out volumes:

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Apparently scholars doubt, maybe even Jews, who cling to their views of the godhead.

"Justin Martyr gives his reasoning for the threefold invocation of the names in his
First Apology"

, And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again,and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate,and in the name of the holy Spirit, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.
First Apology"
61
www.academia.edu/34955246/Matt_28_19_and_a_Hebrew_Matthew

As for the The Nag Hammadi, I went through the Pistos Wisdom scroll and found too many errors.

It takes just one error in a message to bring the whole scroll down, yet you cling to the good bits, and ignore the bad bits?

You claim the KJV is full of errors? Care to list one, that proves the torah is not inspired by GOD?

The gospel of Thomas is not in the NT torah, so care to offer a link to the entire scroll so I can read it myself, I assume the entire scroll is inspired? and must be?

You claim these Christians became changed by Rome after 365 AD? Maybe some did, but some remained true to the NT torah.

Since truth is revealed gradually? Is truth revealed gradually? Or did Abraham know all things of salvation?

Are you saying people cannot read the torah for themselves, unless Rome edits it for them?

Missionaries have come across tribes keeping Sabbath, long before the Western world edited their religion as you claim.

I have studied KJV myself without Catholic editings. Where is your proof that Catholic edits spoiled the KJV?

Ac 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device

Is this term "godhead" a KJV mistake or a Catholic edit? It is certainly not a Jewish idea is it?

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Is this term "godhead" a KJV mistake or a Catholic edit? It is certainly not a Jewish idea is it?

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
(KJV)

Is this term "godhead" a KJV mistake or a Catholic edit? It is certainly not a Jewish idea is it?

SO Paul is writing about elohiym wrong?

Gordon quotes" At the same time we must observe that Ashtoret, Kemosh, and Milkom are each referred to as Elohim even though there is nothing multiple about any one of them."

Is Gordon for real? Are not these deities a part of a family of deities?

The fact is all pagan gods as seen above represented dozen of deities, that the powers flowed among many of them. This is what the term "elohim" means, the "flow of deity powers". While the book "The two Babylon's" tries to show triad deities among all major pagan religions, there is sufficient evidence that all pagan religions had many deities, and their term "elohim" referred to a "family of deities".

But in a heavenly context referring Elohim to YHWH, Gordon wants the word "Elohim" to have a special and different meaning, despite the contrasting context when "Elohim" is referred to pagan deities.

(1) Ge 20:13 And it came to pass, when ELOHIM (with plural verb) caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.

"So contrary to the expected rule of Elohim getting a singular verb, here Elohim gets a plural verb. Because of this plural verb, we could literally translate this phrase "gods caused me to wander". From this verse alone it indeed appears that Abraham worshipped multiple gods whom he believed had caused him to wander from his father's house. However, this hardly fits the overall picture."

Gordon has a theory of faith that says the majority of passages over rules the meaning of minor problem ones, whereas a true Bible scholar must fit all Bible contexts into a single overall picture...Every Bible context must make sense. It seems even Abraham knew Elohim meant a "Heavenly kind of powers".

Do Jews understand the term elohiym?

judges are a family
Aaron and Moses were family
GOD is a family
Pagan gods are family

All these are referenced in verses using elohiym.

In Eph 3:15,16 theos/elohiym is referenced as family.

So your saying Jews always for all time had the truth, and nothing backslid.... why nearly every church is lukewarm and fails to hold the truth... did not Jesus argue with Jews in his day?

What killed Jesus? (1) Claiming to be god and changing the Sabbath dozens of rules.

Jesus claimed to be a SON of GOD, as humans are Sons of God, and as for human traditional rules of Sabbath keeping, should we not follow torah rather than Jewish traditions?

You are also implying the only true Church out there is some messanic church following the gnostic writings? What of Huss, Tyndale, Luther, etc, these men had some truth...

What was William Miller proclaiming in 1844, how many churches arose from this time? How important is roughly this date? There are two prophets from this time both women, both wrote thousands of pages, both founded churches, one is the founder of the UN of the world, the other a lowly SDA church.

Let me test your Jewish ideas of Hebrew, do Jews consider the nakedness of the wife as the same as the nakedness of the husband? Y/N. This means the wife is the same flesh as the husband? This implies the body of both are ONE, cardinally one Being. Any Jewish comments on this Hebrew idea in the torah? I doubt this is a Catholic edit is it?


D"No one ever even considered the satan of the ahl as anything other than a servant of the Lord

All of your Fallen Angel satan Worship was not invented until Rome invented it after 365AD

R" Are you sure of this claim? Can you prove this to me?

If a angel volunteered to be a lying spirit for GOD, why does GOD end the angel and his other angels into the Lake of Death, along with the other goats/humans who also fail to be saved?

D"Many times word are uses differently by different authors – it is called cultural drift over time – you ignore it
R" 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,

Thus there is no differences in the Hebrew word meanings?? according to GOD, but I get your view in reference to man writing a word, eg echad, originally meant "unit" but today means "one" .... my source is Jeff Benner.

D" Many times several words are built upon the same root – but mean different things – you also ignore this
R" Jeff Benner would disagree with this idea, and so do I. James Barr would agree with you and his book influences many scholars of thought. James Barr writes of the Hebrew root fallacy. I disagree.


D" Sometimes the word is used literally and sometime in poetry – you ignore the difference
R" Half of Scripture ius poetry, according to Jeff Benner.


R"You mention Matt and Luke differ in their birth timing of Jesus. I would disagree, as Scripture is always correct.
D" How can you disagree – when you have refused to discuss it
R" You would raise historical issues which cannot be solidly proved by science. Hence I stick to Hebrew word meanings, which are presented in writing in the present time, hence can be solidly proved by science. Many Jews say king David never existed. So proving history is a problem for some.


D"Why would God ask satan his opinion if God though satan is just a liar
R" Why did God ask Adam, where are you? if GOD knew Adam would lie?
Your logic is invalid. And therefore false.


D" What satan said back to God is 100% perfectly the next logical question
R" No what satan said back is disrespectful. Admit it. Satan disagreed to God's question.

God said Job was perfect. Satan disagreed. Now that in my books is what an opposer would do. You say satan means accuser but not opposer.

Look at this passage and determine what English word for "satan" works best.



Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an "satan" against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. 23 And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.

Picture: The messenger of elohiym was with sword in hand, and blocking the road pathway of the donkey.

Word meaning: adversary is not real good
blocking is ok but not for other contexts
oppose/opposer fits all the contexts

By the way an accuser is not a friend, but usually an opposer of you.



D" God brought it up and commanding the testing of Job
R" What is salvation as a process for?

Here is a passage written by AT Jones, a SDA layman, way back in the 1860's. He writes about Satan as a prosecutor and may help you.

"The thought was presented that these sons of God were those from the other worlds—the different parts of the universe—corresponding to what Adam was as he stood at the head of this world when the world was made and put under his power and given to him as his dominion. The Scripture says Adam was the son of God. Now when Satan came into this world and took the dominion by taking under his power the head of this dominion, he then stood in the place in this world where Adam should have stood. Therefore when the sons of God from the other worlds came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan came also among them and presented himself before the Lord, as the representative of this world, which is under his dominion. I simply present this to call your attention to the thought for further study.

Now from Satan’s dominion here, ever since he obtained it, God has been calling from this world people to Himself. Ever since the day that Satan obtained control of this world and God said, “I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed,” God has been calling people from the ranks of Satan unto Himself and into His dominion. And many had been coming all the time. But all the time Satan had been making the charge that that was not fair. He was arguing, “These are my rightful conquest and you are leading them off to you. What have you done that, by right, you can do that, when I gained it here?” Thus he was always contesting the right of God to do this and was also accusing all those whom God called out of this world unto Himself. He was accusing them before God day and night. He declared, “These are my property. They are my rightful subjects. They are laden with sin and are altogether wicked. Yet you call them out and justify them and hold them before the universe, and propose to hold them up before the universe as though they had been good all the time. That is not fair. They are sinners; they are wicked. They are just like the rest of us over here.” Thus he is the accuser of the brethren, accusing before God day and night every one who had turned from his authority unto God’s.

Now Jesus came into the world to demonstrate that He had the right to do all this and that it was fair. And He came at the point of weakness which we considered awhile ago and entered upon the contest with Satan to recover, by right, the headship of this lost dominion. Now notice: Satan had gained, not by right, but by might as against right, the headship of this dominion from the first Adam to whom it was rightfully given. The second Adam comes, not by might as against right, but by right against might and regains the headship of this world and all the dominion of it. Therefore, when He was raised from the dead, He was raised up to the headship of all principality and power and might and dominion, not only of this world but also of that which is to come.

Now turn to the twelfth chapter of Revelation. There is the passage from which is derived all this that I have been saying. When Christ was born into the world, the vision opens and there stood Satan ready to devour Christ as soon as he should be born. Seventh verse:

There was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Now the word “accuser” there signifies in the Greek, “he who accuses another in a court”—that would correspond in our country to a prosecuting attorney. The German translation gives the same idea exactly. Our word “accuser” does not give it so clearly, because one man may accuse another falsely and tell lies about him and backbite as thousands of people do. That is following the same principle of Satan, of course, but that is not the thought here. Here this accuser is one who comes as a prosecuting attorney into a court. You see the situation: Here was Satan, who had this dominion, and God was calling and receiving those who would turn to Him from the power of Satan, but Satan claimed the right to all these subject. Now he would enter into the court of God and there as a prosecuting attorney he would prosecute all these, his subjects, as slave-holders used to do under the Fugitive Slave Law in the United States. He would prosecute all these in that court and demand that they should be given up once more to his authority and that it was not in justice or out of right that they should be taken thus away.

And, too, there was room for him to present that argument with an apparent shadow of right to it, because the contest had not yet been carried on, the battle had not been fought and the victory won so completely that his argument and his right as a prosecuting attorney should be annihilated. Now it is true that the promise was certain and the victory was certain and the promise of God secure but still it was yet to be tested in an open conflict in the flesh. So that when Christ came in the flesh there was just as much temptation upon Him through the power of Satan as though there never had been any promise of redemption. Or shall we say that much? Shall we say that when Christ did come in the flesh, there was as much temptation for Him to meet and it was as real a temptation as though no promise had ever been made of redemption? Assuredly. If not, then He was guarded against temptation and the conflict was not real but more imaginary than real.

He came into the world to demonstrate the unrighteousness of that argument that Satan was presenting in the courts of God, as the prosecuting attorney from this country. That is the thought; it is legal all the way through. Jesus came here into Satan’s territory and took human nature at the point to which Satan himself had brought it. In this human nature He met Satan on his own ground and against all his own power defeated him merely by the power of trusting in right itself as against might. He exercised no shadow of right [sic.] Himself to do anything of Himself, to protect or help Himself. He trusted completely and fully in that divine power of right as against might and all that it can bring. And He conquered and thus became by right the head of this dominion again and of all who will be redeemed from it and of the redemption of the dominion itself.

And now that word also in the Greek which says that the accuser of our brethren “is cast down,” conveys the idea of a prosecuting attorney who comes into court but he has no case any more. He is repudiated. He has no place for argument. Why? Because now we have an Advocate in the court, Jesus Christ the righteous. Yes. Thank the Lord!

In the court, before Jesus Christ came in the flesh, there was the accuser of the brethren a prosecuting attorney, pleading his legal rights to the subjects of his dominion, as they were leaving his dominion, and going over to the other. He could present that argument with the appearance of a shadow of right, because his dominion, his authority, had not yet been positively contested. But Christ came and did contest it righteously and fairly at every step of the way and so fairly that Satan himself cannot bring any charge of unfairness against it. And having won it, now Christ takes the place in court, not as a prosecuting attorney, but as an Advocate. And when He comes into court as Advocate by right, the other one, the accuser, the prosecuting attorney, is repudiated; he is shut out; he has no case at all against those whom he would accuse. That is good; that is good.

“These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. and if any man sin,” there may be the accuser still. He may enter his plea as a prosecuting attorney, but now “we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” and by His standing in court, that prosecuting attorney is repudiated, put out, and cast down. That is the story, and I am glad of it. That is the value of our Advocate in the court. He shuts out the prosecuting attorney and takes away his case so that he has no place in court at all. Thank the Lord! "


Shalom

[Dave]

You have written an enormous pile of material one has to work through. Too much.
Yes Robert the gulf between us grow wider all the time – each and every time I share a basic Christian principle with you – your argue against me – and your arguments are not usually on point or valid

So forgive if I pick out a few.
D"The Nag Hammadi was authored by Messianic Jews - like John, Paul, Peter, James, Phillip, and Thomas
What is the difference between a Messanic Jew and a Christian?

A Messianic Jew is a Jew – who accepts Jesus as the Christ Messiah – DUH – why would you even ask
A Roman Christian (which are the only ones left in the West) are 100% Rome Centric
Luther was a Roman Catholic until he wasn’t – Calvin was a Roman Catholic until he wasn’t

As for the The Nag Hammadi, I went through the Pistos Wisdom scroll and found too many errors.
each and every time I share a basic Christian principle with you – your argue against me – and you argument are not usually on point or valid
I will return the favor – Mr Academic honesty guy – I will read the Book of Mormon and then criticize Ellen White – or Paul – or John and James

You seriously do not understand the difference between a library and a Bible?
Why don't you claim all of the dead Sea Scrolls as Bible - it was the Library at Cumron
Does this make Enoch, the Book of Gioants, and the Book of Creation all 100% inspired Biblicial text?
Why wonlt you embrace all the temple Scrolls - King Solomon and Enoch were there in that Library
Are you being academically serious - WOW what understanding you have of ancient literature
What an understanding you have of Judaism
Was the Pistos Wisdom Scroll written by an agl author? By someone who knew Jesus Christ personally?

I went to my corner library - they have a Koran, a Geneva Bible, a KJV, a NIV, and the Other Testement of Jesus Chtrist written by Joseph Smith - Gosh Robert - why don't they all agree - they all come from the same library?

I bet my children new the difference at age 5

It takes just one error in a message to bring the whole scroll down, yet you cling to the good bits, and ignore the bad bits?
Writings are weighted as to author
Ellen White is not superior to any one who whaled and talked with jesus Christ before and after the resurrection
And you wonder why I doubt your sincerity or honesty

You claim the KJV is full of errors? Care to list one, that proves the torah is not inspired by GOD?
The KJV IS NOT the TOARAH
Textus receptus – Bastard verses that do not exist in any other ancient codex
(1) Matthew 17:21, (2) Matthew 18:11, (3) Matthew 23:14, (4) Mark 7:16, 1.5, (5 & 6) Mark 9:44 & 9:46, (7) Mark 11:26, (8) Mark 15:28, (9) Luke 17:36, (10) John 5:3–4, (11) Acts 8:37, (12) Acts 15:34, (13) Acts 24:6–8, (14) Acts 28:29, (15) Romans 16:24, (16) 1 John 5:7–8, 2

Questionable - Matthew 20:16 (b), Mark 6:11 (b), Luke 4:8 (b), Luke 9:55–56, Luke 23:17, Acts 9:5–6, Acts 13:42, Acts 23:9 (b),

Not omitted but boxed - Mark 16:9–20, John 7:53–8:11,

Versification differences - Romans 14 and 16, 2 Corinthians 13:14, 3 John 15, Revelation 12:18

There are 100s of NT codices available from the 3rd Century – they all seem to agree with one another – and all disagree with The Textus receptus
Therefore all the marginal readings that you evidently do not understand – and therefore ignore

You claim these Christians became changed by Rome after 365 AD? Maybe some did, but some remained true to the NT torah.
If they did – they were persecuted to the death by the Roman Church

Synod of Laodicea - Canon 29
www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

Massacre at Béziers, Albigensian Crusade,
Index Librorum Prohibitorum, (Latin: “Index of Forbidden Books”), list of books once forbidden by Roman Catholic church authority as dangerous to the faith or morals of Roman Catholics. Publication of the list ceased in 1966 – and you could be put to death

Causes of the Early Persecutions | History Todayhttps://www.historytoday.com › archive
In its first two centuries of existence Christianity witnessed the persecution of many of its members by officials of the Roman Empire – then Rome took over the Christian faith and made it mandatory

In 313 AD, the Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, which accepted Christianity: 10 years later, it had become the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Not as a method to worship God – but as a State tool to control the masses
Watch out – come to church – do what the priest say – or the devil will get you – and Halloween is born
There are fallen Angels – if your sick it means you are a sinner – and for $10 you can get grandpa out of hell

The Abomination of Ezekiel 8 & 9 = the Worship of Tammuz
Winter equinox (Dec 25th) + Spring Equinox (Easter) with pig and colored eggs
What does Roman Christendom look like today?

Since truth is revealed gradually? Is truth revealed gradually? Or did Abraham know all things of salvation?
Truth is released gradually – your anti-spiritual assumption
Even you finally admitted that Paul had a ‘light bulb moment’ – but you make no comment that even Paul didn’t understand if it was in the body or out of the body
You cannot imagine ‘out of the body’ therefore you skip over the fact – mock the fact – call it a ’light bulb moment’

Abraham hept the Torah before it was written -
Gen 26:5  Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. 

Are you saying people cannot read the torah for themselves, unless Rome edits it for them?
Who does this – except a Jew – no one has since Rome
All Christian have to read is the Roman version of it
How many times do you deny a source just because it is not approved by your Roman KJV authority

Missionaries have come across tribes keeping Sabbath, long before the Western world edited their religion as you claim.
It is pagan Robert – it is not written in your Torah – it must all be a lie according to you

I have studied KJV myself without Catholic editings. Where is your proof that Catholic edits spoiled the KJV?
Absolute rubbish Robert – who gave you your KJV? – The Roman Catholic Church did – how did they do it – they choose the texus receptus as the singel source and it has been revised how many times before you were born?
How can you say – you read a Catholic Document but it wasn’t edited by the Catholics
What you say Robert is absolute rubbish – take a history class

The fact is all pagan gods as seen above represented dozen of deities, that the powers flowed among many of them. This is what the term "elohim" means, the "flow of deity powers".
Absolute rubbish – the Hebrew word does not mean a pagan language – Mr. Respect for the word of God

While the book "The two Babylon's" tries to show triad deities among all major pagan religions, there is sufficient evidence that all pagan religions had many deities, and their term "elohim" referred to a "family of deities".
Yes Robert – this pagan concept is your view – You keep repeating your error

Do Jews understand the term elohiym?
Of course Robert – bash the Jews for all they went through – Rome tells you to

Let me test your Jewish ideas of Hebrew, do Jews consider the nakedness of the wife as the same as the nakedness of the husband? Y/N. This means the wife is the same flesh as the husband? This implies the body of both are ONE, cardinally one Being. Any Jewish comments on this Hebrew idea in the torah? I doubt this is a Catholic edit is it?
Trying to change the subject in another direction
You first Robert

You say There are too many ideas on one page for to handel - yet it is you that keep avoiding questions by changing the subject into a new direction - so you don't have to answer
How can you even come close to understand Juadism when you dissagree with every word present here - you you understand the thought behind Rabbi Friedman? - NO
You say you keep it simple and true to your SDA doctrine regardless it it fits scripture or not

D"No one ever even considered the satan of the ahl as anything other than a servant of the Lord
All of your Fallen Angel satan Worship was not invented until Rome invented it after 365AD
R" Are you sure of this claim? Can you prove this to me?
I have begged you from day 1 to give me one reference – even offered to join your cult if you do
You cannot – therefore you do not

If a angel volunteered to be a lying spirit for GOD, why does GOD end the angel and his other angels into the Lake of Death, along with the other goats/humans who also fail to be saved?
Mt Simple has only one angel in all of God's creation - it name must be the decieveing spirit, the evil spirit, the satan, the devil, the beast - the dragon - the false prophet - your satan is a buisy guy
and your view of the heavens is stunted - 3 gods - a god of evil - one angel - and Chirst who is actually the Angle Michael - crap - bolony - garbage - error
For the 25 Millionth Time – for their crimes against nature and man in Gen 6 – DUH
And the actor of Gen 6 are not angels – they are the off spring of the Great Red Dragon – the Beast – the First Archon – but you have been brain washed to deny our true struggle

D"Many times word are uses differently by different authors – it is called cultural drift over time – you ignore it
R" 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
What does that mean – in this discussion - why don’t you address - Word Study H3629 – I noticed you ignored it before[/font]

D" Many times several words are built upon the same root – but mean different things – you also ignore this
R" Jeff Benner would disagree with this idea, and so do I. James Barr would agree with you and his book influences many scholars of thought. James Barr writes of the Hebrew root fallacy. I disagree.
Studies in Hebrew Roots of Contrasted Meanings ,Robert Gordis, The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Series, Vol. 27, No. 1 (Jul., 1936), pp. 33-58 (26 pages), Published By: University of Pennsylvania Press
It would seem that scholars that translate disagree with you
Why don’t you address - Word Study H3629 – I noticed you ignored it before

D" Sometimes the word is used literally and sometime in poetry – you ignore the difference
R" Half of Scripture ius poetry, according to Jeff Benner.
And you take this into consideration how?

R"You mention Matt and Luke differ in their birth timing of Jesus. I would disagree, as Scripture is always correct.
D" How can you disagree – when you have refused to discuss it
R" You would raise historical issues which cannot be solidly proved by science. Hence I stick to Hebrew word meanings, which are presented in writing in the present time, hence can be solidly proved by science. Many Jews say king David never existed. So proving history is a problem for some.
OK Mathew said at least two years before Herod died – Luke says 6-9 years later when another was king and the Roman Census took place
Tell me how this is not an error – I notice you posted no scripture to back up your claim – you just attacked history

D" What satan said back to God is 100% perfectly the next logical question
R" No what satan said back is disrespectful. Admit it. Satan disagreed to God's question.
So you would lie to god if he asked you? - Courious

Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an "satan" against him.

Picture: The messenger of elohiym was with sword in hand, and blocking the road pathway of the donkey.
Who is the anger of the lord – your satan – how is this satan opposing God – and why is it a sin to be used by God – or why is it a sin to obey God

By the way an accuser is not a friend, but usually an opposer of you.
Working for God opposing Balaam – but you refuse to admit it because your homest

D" God brought it up and commanding the testing of Job
R" What is salvation as a process for?
HEY – Hello – Mr Serious – what does that have to do with

Jun 20, 2021 23:24:43 GMT -5 Dave said:

God already declared this human is perfect so the case is closed. So why is a prosecutor supposed to reopen the case?
satan didn’t – God brought it up and commanding the testing of Job

So you admit that your previous statement was 180* opposite of what you post now
And posted back to back –
It is hard to tell what you mean – or certainly what you stand for - when you just contradict yourself – Mr Consistent
It takes just one error in a message to bring the whole scroll down, yet you cling to the good bits, and ignore the bad bits?
And you wonder why I doubt your sincerity or honesty

[Deleted]

D"So you would lie to god if he asked you? - Curious
R"What has this answer got to do with Satan showing disrespect to God , when God was declaring Job perfect?

( You are avoiding my question, again and again)

Satan's answer to GOD is actually a sin, because Satan disagreed with God declaration of Job. Do you agree with this?

And if you say yes, than Satan was opposing God's declaration of Job, as the Hebrew word suggests.

But you like to say No, or not answer, because you say God actually wanted to further test Job? Does that make sense?

If Job is already perfect as the Hebrew word "tam" means, how can GOD than want to test Job further? It's a contradiction.



D"Who is the anger of the lord – your satan – how is this satan opposing God – and why is it a sin to be used by God – or why is it a sin to obey God
R" Again you are not writing very clear. God was angry because Baalim , a false prophet was going to curse Israel as he was paid to curse Israel.

So God wanted to stop this cursing.

On the way God's messenger "opposed" passage of Baalim on a donkey on the roadway with a sword. That's all the word means "oppose".

You ask is it a sin if GOD asks you to be a lying medium? So it is OK for GOD to ask people to murder other people God no longer wanted to live? Your question is saying although GOD wrote ten principles of love in stone with his own finger, that GOD is able to undo these principles and ask humans to transgress these laws, and this is OK to do so, because God can overrule his own laws of love? Is this possible? To me, absolutely not.


But if a being is already naturally evil and sinning, is GOD actually asking for a sinless being to volunteer to do evil, or simply allowing the evil sinning being to continue to further evil a sin unto the Ahab the king who wanted sin running in his life? Which is it?

Since one angel sinned long ago, and other angels sinned along with him, God is simply asking for a fallen angel to continue to father the sinning Ahab wanted in his life. I do not see any hint of a sinless angel volunteering to do ra and sin for King Ahab. You are reading things into the text to suit a different view of the torah. And you do this because you ignore the Ezekiel sentences about the cherub who sinned long before man ever sinned.




D"Working for God opposing Balaam – but you refuse to admit it because your homest
R" Are you saying Baalim, who was a false sinning and wicked prophet, who was "forced by God with a sword to the edge of killing him, as God "opposed" Baalim" , that because Baalim blessed Israel, that now Baalim is a "friend of God"? I don't think so.

How many times in war, do bitter enemies have treaties of friendship , sign stuff, but still war against each other.

D"HEY – Hello – Mr Serious – what does that have to do with
R" You raised a different direction Dave, not me, saying God wanted to test Job further and so asked Satan a question about whether Job was perfect? God did no such thing. God declared Job perfect. End of process of salvation.

If Satan was a friend of God, Satan would simply agree, but NO. Satan sinned and lied and make excuses that Job was still able to sin, if tested some more.

God declared Job was not only sinless, but would not sin even if tested as Satan requested.

I asked you what is salvation, and you didn't answer me. Testing a human is really about continuing the process of salvation. Is salvation a process? Yes, some scholars term salvation both justification and sanctification, but salvation is a seed that must be germinated and grow as the blade, the ear and the fruit. The testing stages help develop the fruit. The Hebrew word "tam" means the salvation process is complete. The human has reached a sinless state and fully supporting God in His words.

But NO Satan disagreed the salvation process was perfect in Job, and made excuses to GOD, you protect Job. That is what a hedge does. Protect from whom though? Satan.

Sin is termed missing GOD, so the human has to be following some other power, if the human is missing God's power, but Dave never considers this idea. Why else did Jesus term the Devil a Father (ab) of lying? The Hebrew word "ab" means a provider, a source of sin and ra.



D"OK Mathew said at least two years before Herod died – Luke says 6-9 years later when another was king and the Roman Census took place
Tell me how this is not an error – I notice you posted no scripture to back up your claim – you just attacked history
"R you raise a good point.

OK show me the verses in Scripture that speak of these issues you raise. You have my fullest attention, as this so called error would destroy the inspiration of Scripture? However are humans allowed to make memory mistakes? But I consider this to be a major problem? Do you have your Scriptures?


D" For the 25 Millionth Time – for their crimes against nature and man in Gen 6 – DUH
R" I thought we agreed that beings cannot sexually mate with humans, so how is it possible for archon Yalbaoeth to create by himself 200 or so other clones of himself, which further sexually mate with human women to make demi-gods?

And your assuming the term "sons of god" allows for this?

So if GOD foresee all things, including sinful intentions, why would GOD create archons who would do this terrible act, and allow a sinless angel to join somehow so that the sinless angel becomes a sinning angel, God has to destroy? It suggests to me God is privy to the sin intentions and hence the father of sin?

That is why I can't stand your left hand thing, that is somehow allowed to do what it wishes... is that how GOD is? weak and able to do mighty things in the right hand but blind enough to allow the left hand to create archons who later sin and have to be destroyed?

And you pick on me making GOD into human pictures, what about you?

God's left hand can create evil and sin, but the right hand is sinless and powerful? This makes no sense to me. Your God is flawed.

You even question that the words of GOD can be broken by GOD? You even say God murdered, using a department, millions of people? So God's laws are not absolute? God can break His own ten words of love. It not a sin for a sinless human to sin if God asks you to sin? Have you considered what questions you are asking?

I read the laws of GOD are eternal, above GOD, because GOD wrote them, these laws govern even GOD, so that all of the doings of GOD are logical rational and predicable.

If God has not absolute rules of love, than GOD is flawed and irrational, unpredictable and and NOT a GOD of love at all. But a God of love and hate, or sin and murder too.




D"I have begged you from day 1 to give me one reference – even offered to join your cult if you do: You cannot – therefore you do not
R" Finding a historical reference to Jews supporting GOD as a family is a difficult thing. Abraham supported polygamy, and God winked at this sin. Some sins are not considered sins unto death, so GOD can overlook some errors in people's lives. We are judged by the light we know, not by the entire torah rules of living. So I will look for you, but if you are asking me to do this, why aren't you looking for Jews who understand the torah differently?

Consider this passage

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

expounded is the Greek word to interpret, translate

Why did Jesus have to translate Hebrew words to two humans who could read Hebrew words themselves? Because they were blinded by their Jewish upbringing.
This means in the OT there must be dozens of verses in Hebrew that speak of Yashuah.

Where are these? or do we say Jesus was word playing games with prefix and suffix letters with the verb yasha?

You told me words experience cultural drift over time? No words don't, but culture does.

Jesus was battling with Jewish culture who was influencing the Hebrew words before them.


D" Yes Robert – this pagan concept is your view – You keep repeating your error
R" You are biased my friend. elohiym is a word, it fits into divine and pagan contexts.

What pagan concept are you referring to?

Jews say GOD is a king? Where does it say this?

There is a passage the Ancient of Days makes His SON a king, with earth as His kingdom in Daniel.

But the Father, ab, eloah, terms for this Being, also Most high, is not referenced as a King (technically a reigner).

Question. Why did many Jews worship the Queen of Heaven in Jeremiah's time?

You claim these Jews were supporting  a pagan deity. I beg to differ. These Jews were deceived, yes. I will explain.

1Ki 16:33 And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the LORD God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him.

What was this Jew doing, making a grove.

1Ki 15:13 And also Maachah his mother, even her he removed from being queen, because she had made an idol in a grove;

Inside the grove of trees were idols, yes human manufacture deities, but did they represent something else?

Why did the Israel worship a golden calf?

The first letter of Hebrew is a bull, hence a calf, meaning "strong one".

The golden calf was a symbol of the "divine strong one", but YHWH hated this manufacture, and destroyed it.

The pagan aspect of all this is the "human manufacture" of what GOD is like.

Notice what Adam and Eve did

Ge 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


Adam and Eve manufactured a covering to replace the HS covering they had lost.

That is what GOD hates.

Ge 3:21 ¶ Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Notice GOD clothes them with skins that come from death. Something had to die, for this covering.

So who dies? The being who caused death? And who is this? The serpent who tricked them to sin, by sinning to Eve.

God said if you eat of this tree you will "die"

The serpent said you will "not die".

Dave that is a lie, a sin. The serpent sinned to Eve.

But you disagree with this idea. I am amazed at how much you protect your archons. Even your serpent, you say never lied.

You even say humans have a spirit that cannot die, unless it enters the second death. Hence you agree with the serpent saying ye shall not surely die.

So you say Eve knew what GOD meant, and so ate the fruit, so the soul can be released from its body of sin, so the soul can live with GOD, without dying.

But Scripture says the spirit and the body become the soul. It's a union with GOD. God makes you live and God dwells with you, like a yoke, God on one side and you on the other, and together you become like a soul. It's a partnered relationship. And if you sin, surely you will die, immediately even, did not the relationship of God with man suffer immediately? They became naked. God shrank around them. So the partnership suffered. Grace was offered but only for while you live this life. Therefore Satan the serpent lied. Something immediately died when Eve at the fruit. In fact many things suffered curses when Eve and Adam ate the forbidden fruit, even creation started dying.

Shalom

[Dave]

D"So you would lie to god if he asked you? - Curious
R"What has this answer got to do with Satan showing disrespect to God , when God was declaring Job perfect?
( You are avoiding my question, again and again)
Satan's answer to GOD is actually a sin, because Satan disagreed with God declaration of Job. Do you agree with this?
And if you say yes, than Satan was opposing God's declaration of Job, as the Hebrew word suggests.
But you like to say No, or not answer, because you say God actually wanted to further test Job? Does that make sense?
If Job is already perfect as the Hebrew word "tam" means, how can GOD than want to test Job further? It's a contradiction.

D"Who is the anger of the lord – your satan – how is this satan opposing God – and why is it a sin to be used by God – or why is it a sin to obey God
R" Again you are not writing very clear. God was angry because Baalim , a false prophet was going to curse Israel as he was paid to curse Israel.
So God wanted to stop this cursing.
On the way God's messenger "opposed" passage of Baalim
Correct – God’s messenger working for the Lord not in opposition to the Lord
The opposition was to Balaam – man

Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an "satan" against him.

An angel of the Lord stood as a satan against man

You ask is it a sin if GOD asks you to be a lying medium? So it is OK for GOD to ask people to murder other people God no longer wanted to live? Your question is saying although GOD wrote ten principles of love in stone with his own finger, that GOD is able to undo these principles and ask humans to transgress these laws, and this is OK to do so, because God can overrule his own laws of love? Is this possible? To me, absolutely not.

You think the 10 Commandment were written for God
DUH – God wrote them to man for man

Does God ask Israel to kill people – absolutely
Does God kill people – absolutely
You should try reading some ahl as a Novel

But if a being is already naturally evil and sinning, is GOD actually asking for a sinless being to volunteer to do evil, or simply allowing the evil sinning being to continue to further evil a sin unto the Ahab the king who wanted sin running in his life? Which is it?
You want an excuse – answer your own question – does God kill – does God ask man to kill

You want to say NO because of your Feel Good tov only God
But you cannot answer NO – so you look for an excuse– well Ahab deserved it – did JOB?

You are reading things into the text to suit a different view of the torah.
Just read the text - DUH
And you do this because you ignore the Ezekiel sentences about the cherub who sinned long before man ever sinned.
Again you choose two words over the entire bulk of Scripture
precept upon precept, line upon line – except for your satan god

D"Working for God opposing Balaam – but you refuse to admit it because your homest
R" Are you saying Baalim, who was a false sinning and wicked prophet, who was "forced by God with a sword to the edge of killing him, as God "opposed" Baalim" , that because Baalim blessed Israel, that now Baalim is a "friend of God"? I don't think so.
What a bunch of crap - God anger was an angel of the Lord opposing Balaam as a satan

D"HEY – Hello – Mr Serious – what does that have to do with
R" You raised a different direction Dave, not me, saying God wanted to test Job further and so asked Satan a question about whether Job was perfect? God did no such thing. God declared Job perfect. End of process of salvation.
1- who stared the conversation – God did
2- who asked satan for his opinion – God did
3- who order the testing of JOB – God did
4- did satan oppose God and love JOB? Did satan oppose God and protect JOB
did satan say – no God I wont do what you ask because I oppose you
5- God gave satan boundaries – did satan cross the boundaries?
How is this opposing God – how is wagging a war against God ?
How is any of this doisobeying God

If Satan was a friend of God, Satan would simply agree,
and so he did - went right out and obeyed God

D"OK Mathew said at least two years before Herod died – Luke says 6-9 years later when another was king and the Roman Census took place
Tell me how this is not an error – I notice you posted no scripture to back up your claim – you just attacked history
"R you raise a good point.
OK show me the verses in Scripture that speak of these issues you raise. You have my fullest attention, as this so called error would destroy the inspiration of Scripture? However are humans allowed to make memory mistakes? But I consider this to be a major problem? Do you have your Scriptures?
DUH Robert – you are about a year behind – with this and so many questions
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/410/nt-errors

D" For the 25 Millionth Time – for their crimes against nature and man in Gen 6 – DUH
R" I thought we agreed that beings cannot sexually mate with humans,
You made it clear that angels cannot have offspring – I agree, because angels are spiritual beings

The archon are made with some matter – they took on human form in Gen 6 andd once in fesh – they fell for yester ra (lust) lust as all biologial creatures are programmed to do – it is called instinct for self-preservation

so how is it possible for archon Yalbaoeth to create by himself 200 or so other clones of himself, which further sexually mate with human women to make demi-gods?

The archon are made with some matter – they took on human form in Gen 6 andd once in fesh – they fell for yester ra (lust) lust as all biologial creatures are programmed to do – it is called instinct for self-preservation

And your assuming the term "sons of god" allows for this?
Sons of elohiym (pl) = sons of a heavenly being = The Great Red Dragon of Rev 12 with it array of 10 horns and 7 crowns – it is a plurality

Who is the only creature in the the entire History of judaism = a bad guy with offspring
Answer – King Solomon – Beelzebub + his shedim
When Jesus spoke of this group of beings – no one in his time stopped Him to ask – who
King Solomon and Beelzebub + his shedim were well understood at the time – common knowledge
It was common knowledge to the audience of Jesus Christ – so you deny it with ever once of your SDA doctrine because Rome didn't like it

So if GOD foresee all things, including sinful intentions, why would GOD create archons
1- Fact – God test His people's
2- Fact – God does not do it Himself
3- so how does it get done – God has a staff for that
Why did God create termites, bacteria, viruses, or cows - they all have a place with God's creation - an job to do - a role to play

God's left hand can create evil and sin, but the right hand is sinless and powerful? This makes no sense to me. Your God is flawed.
OK -
God creates evil with both hands – is that a better metaphor for you

You even question that the words of GOD can be broken by GOD? You even say God murdered, using a department, millions of people?

Robert – you simplely have never read the Bible

Feb 8, 2021 17:02:30 GMT -5 Dave said:

God cannot wound – impossible – it violates the royal law – but God can kill you if he chooses
R" I have not read anywhere where God kills anybody,

Then you should read your scripture
www.vocativ.com/news/309748/all-the-people-god-kills-in-the-bible/index.html
All The People God Kills In The Bible - Three million is low-balling it

Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Sept 12, 2020 9:56:24 GMT -5 Dave said:

D Does God sin when he does this – your video says no – it is God Majestic Authority
R I must watch this video you claim is mine?

Sept 5, 2020 15:15:03 GMT -5 @robertt said:

The Ten Commandments, then, stand for a
philosophy of law and government that is central to
the American system.

God is unchangeable, totally subject to His own laws, cannot by any means violate these laws.
Albert Mohler - "Does God Really Kill People?"
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-DuLOXng8  

Watched a bit, but heavy download.

You even question that the words of GOD can be broken by GOD? You even say God murdered, using a department, millions of people?

Watch your own video – Answer - @ 07:30 into the video – God does kill people – Yes many and often


D"I have begged you from day 1 to give me one reference – even offered to join your cult if you do: You cannot – therefore you do not
R" Finding a historical reference to Jews supporting GOD as a family is a difficult thing.
Answer – no one believed that your satan was a god of evil until Rome invented him and his Fallen Angels

Abraham supported polygamy, and God winked at this sin.
Why is it a sin to obey God? Why was polygamy and all the Mosaic Laws given to the Jews?
To insure the survival of God’s chosen people – DUH – learn some ahl

You told me words experience cultural drift over time? No words don't, but culture does.
ttps://ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/508/word-study-h3629?page=1&scrollTo=5853
awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you

Question. Why did many Jews worship the Queen of Heaven in Jeremiah's time?
How many Christians today bow to Ellen White – or Joseph Smith

You claim these Jews were supporting  a pagan deity. I beg to differ. These Jews were deceived, yes. I will explain.

1Ki 16:33 And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the LORD God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him.

What was this Jew doing, making a grove.
1- Ahab was the 7th King of the Northern Kingdom
2- Ahab was not a Jew – he was a Sammarian

Why did the Israel worship a golden calf?
Why do Catholics worship the pope?
Why do people place Ellen White above the agl authors?

God said if you eat of this tree you will "die" – so Eve has zero opportunity for a Pardon?

The serpent said you will "not die". - and you won’t die the eternal death if you repent
Dave that is a lie, a sin. The serpent sinned to Eve.
Why do you say thie promise of the Divine Pardon is a lie - Christian
But you disagree with this idea. I am amazed at how much you protect your archons. Even your serpent, you say never lied.
For the 25 MILLIONTH TIME – the serpent deceived – why can’t you stick to scriptures
1 Kings 22 – is the deceiving spirit working for the Lord sinning?
Why do you insist it is a sin to serve the Lord

You even say humans have a spirit that cannot die, unless it enters the second death. Hence you agree with the serpent saying ye shall not surely die.
Yes - If you repent and receive a Divine Pardon – this is the entire message from God to man
I guess you must disagree with the Divine Pardon – who opposes God now?

So you say Eve knew what GOD meant, and so ate the fruit, so the soul can be released from its body of sin, so the soul can live with GOD, without dying.
HEY – did I say it
I think it came from a video by Rabbi Friedman
I understood his point – you refused to listen – probably didn’t even watch him

[Deleted]

Hypothesis: Is God immutable?

In order to test this idea, the following hypotheses are asked:-

Hypothesis: Did GOD codify love into broad principles of law? Therefore making this royal law into an grand immutable code that even GOD Himself cannot transgress?

Hypothesis: Is God allowed to sin, to transgress His own laws?

Hypothesis: Is God required to obey and follow implicitly His own laws of love?

or Is it a sin for a human to obey God, if God asked you to transgress His laws of love?

or is it a sin for GOD to transgress His own laws of love, if GOD wanted to achieve something?

Hypothesis: Are the ten words of love supergrand principles of love that no Being, including GOD, can NOT transgress?

Hypothesis: Is the royal law immutable?

Hypothesis: Is the salvation process immutable?


Introduction: Jews are the original people in charge of God's laws and the demonstration of that law as a process of salvation to humans and as a witness to the entire world. In Jewish culture and tradition it is taught that humans are required to observe 613 laws, rather than just 10 laws. Jews do not consider the moral laws separate from ceremonial laws, or even health laws, civil laws and so forth. One should investigate why and how Jews came up with these ideas of laws. Do Jews see laws coming from G_d as immutable?

Discussion:

Dave wrote:

D"You think the 10 Commandment were written for God
DUH – God wrote them to man for man
Does God ask Israel to kill people – absolutely
Does God kill people – absolutely

Dave further writes"

All The People God Kills In The Bible - Three million is low-balling it
Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Rob writes" Let's consider your first Bible context:

Le 10:1 ¶ And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

Nadab and Abihu offer "strange fire" rather than "holy fire" ?

I am at a loss to understand this, as there are very few texts using "strange fire".

Here is a good commentary by Adam Clarke

Nadab and Abihu offer strange fire before the Lord, and are
destroyed, 1-5.
Aaron and his family forbidden to mourn for them, 6, 7.
He and his family are forbidden the use of wine, 8-11.
Directions to Aaron and his sons concerning the eating of the
meat-offerings, &c., 12-15.
Moses chides Aaron for not having eaten the sin-offering, 16-18.
Aaron excuses himself, and Moses is satisfied, 19, 20.

NOTES ON CHAP. X

Verse 1. And Nadab and Abihu-took either of them his censer] The manner of burning incense in the temple service was, according to the Jews, as follows:-"One went and gathered the ashes from off the altar into a golden vessel, a second brought a vessel full of incense, and a third brought a censer with fire, and put coals on the altar, and he whose office it was to burn the incense strewed it on the fire at the command of the governor. At the same time all the people went out of the temple from between the porch and the altar. Each day they burned the weight of a hundred denaries of incense, fifty in the morning, and fifty in the evening. The hundred denaries weighed fifty shekels of the sanctuary, each shekel weighing three hundred and twenty barleycorns; and when the priest had burned the incense, he bowed himself down and went his way out. See Maimonides' Treatise of the Daily Service, chap. iii. So when Zacharias, as his lot fell, burned incense in the temple, the whole multitude of the people were without at prayer while the incense was burning, Lu 1:9,10. By this service God taught them that the prayers of his faithful people are pleasing to him, whilst our High Priest, Christ Jesus, by his mediation puts incense to their prayers; (see Ps 141:2; Ro 8:34; Heb 8:1,2; 9:24; Re 8:3,4;) for the priests under the law served unto the example and shadow of heavenly things; Heb 8:5." See Ainsworth in loco.

In the preceding chapter we have seen how God intended that every part of his service should be conducted; and that every sacrifice might be acceptable to him, he sent his own fire as the emblem of his presence, and the means of consuming the sacrifice.-Here we find Aaron's sons neglecting the Divine ordinance, and offering incense with strange, that is, common fire,-fire not of a celestial origin; and therefore the fire of God consumed them. So that very fire which, if properly applied, would have sanctified and consumed their gift, became now the very instrument of their destruction! How true is the saying, The Lord is a consuming fire! He will either hallow or destroy us: he will purify our souls by the influence of his Spirit, or consume them with the breath of his mouth! The tree which is properly planted in a good soil is nourished by the genial influences of the sun: pluck it up from its roots, and the sun which was the cause of its vegetative life and perfection now dries up its juices, decomposes its parts, and causes it to moulder into dust. Thus must it be done to those who grieve and do despite to the Spirit of God. Reader, hast thou this heavenly fire? Hear then the voice of God, QUENCH not the SPIRIT.

Some critics are of opinion that the fire used by the sons of Aaron was the sacred fire, and that it is only called strange from the manner of placing the incense on it. I cannot see the force of this opinion.

Which he commanded them not.] Every part of the religion of God is Divine. He alone knew what he designed by its rites and ceremonies, for that which they prefigured-the whole economy of redemption by Christ-was conceived in his own mind, and was out of the reach of human wisdom and conjecture. He therefore who altered any part of this representative system, who omitted or added any thing, assumed a prerogative which belonged to God alone, and was certainly guilty of a very high offence against the wisdom, justice, and righteousness of his Maker. This appears to have been the sin of Nadab and Abihu, and this at once shows the reason why they were so severely punished. The most awful judgments are threatened against those who either add to, or take away from, the declarations of God. See De 4:2; Pr 30:6
De 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you
Pr 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Rob" I get the idea that GOD is divine fire, and GOD comes to the offering and sacrifice, one cannot use a natural fire, for this process, only God Himself must consume the sacrifice.
2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.


Rob" So this is understood to mean GOD HIMSELF visited them with His presence, and the wickedness was immediately burned by the presence of GOD.

Comment from Jamieson-Fausset-Brown:

"Lord, and devoured them--rather, "killed them"; for it appears that neither their bodies nor their robes were consumed (Le 10:5). The expression, "from the Lord," indicates that this fire issued from the most holy place. In the destruction of these two young priests by the infliction of an awful judgment, the wisdom of God observed the same course, in repressing the first instance of contempt for sacred things, as he did at the commencement of the Christian dispensation (Ac 5:1-11)."


Comment from John Wesley

" V. 2. From the Lord-From heaven, or rather from the sanctuary. Devoured them-Destroyed their lives; for their bodies and garments were not consumed. Thus the sword is said to devour, 2Sa 2:26. Thus lightning many times kill persons, without any hurt to their garments.


Comment by Charles Spurgeon

The devouring flame flashed right across the mercy seat and slew them. Think of that, and remember that they were minister's sons and ministers themselves. Even our God is a consuming fire. They died while offering a vain will-worship, and it is to be feared that thousands will perish in like manner. Let us be careful and prayerful, and walk jealously before the jealous God; seeking even to worship him as his own Word directs.

Rob" So if LOVE is a consuming FIRE, than LOVE cannot tolerate the presence of RA, so anybody found missing God's grace, is immediately consumed by His presence.

3 ¶ Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.

4 And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said unto them, Come near, carry your brethren from before the sanctuary out of the camp.

5 So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said.

6 And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled.

7 And ye shall not go out from the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: for the anointing oil of the LORD is upon you. And they did according to the word of Moses.

8 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.
12 ¶ And Moses spake unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons that were left, Take the meat offering that remaineth of the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and eat it without leaven beside the altar: for it is most holy:

What Mrs White says"

"Do not, because you are among unbelievers, become careless in your words; for they are taking your measure. Study the instruction given to Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron. They “offered strange fire before the Lord, which He commanded them not.” Taking common fire they placed it upon their censers. “And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the Lord spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh Me, and before all the people I will be glorified.” Leviticus 10:1-3. Canvassers should remember that they are working with the Lord to save souls, and that they are to bring no commonness or cheapness into His sacred service. Let the mind be filled with pure, holy thoughts, and let the words be well chosen. Hinder not the success of your work by uttering light, careless words.—Manual for Canvassers, 24 (1902)."

And Mrs White writes again:-

"Aaron's sons took the common fire, which God did not accept, and they offered insult to the infinite God by presenting this strange fire before Him. God consumed them by fire for their positive disregard of His express directions. All their works were as the offering of Cain. There was no divine Saviour represented. Had these sons of Aaron been in full command of their reasoning faculties they would have discerned the difference between the common and sacred fire. The gratification of appetite debased their faculties and so beclouded their intellect that their power of discernment was gone. They fully understood the holy character of the typical service, and the awful solemnity and responsibility assumed of presenting themselves before God to minister in sacred service.

Some may inquire, How could the sons of Aaron have been accountable when their intellects were so far paralyzed by intoxication that they were not able to discern the difference between sacred and common fire? It was when they put the cup to their lips that they made themselves responsible for all their acts committed while under the influence of wine. The indulgence of appetite cost those priests their lives. God expressly forbade the use of wine that would have an influence to becloud the intellect.

“And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying, Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: and that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; and that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.”

And this penned by Mrs White: "

Chapter 31—The Sin of Nadab and Abihu
This chapter is based on Leviticus 10:1-11.
"After the dedication of the tabernacle, the priests were consecrated to their sacred office. These services occupied seven days; on the eighth day Aaron offered the sacrifices that God required. All had been done as God commanded, and He revealed His glory in a remarkable manner—fire came and consumed the offering upon the altar. The people raised a universal shout of praise and adoration and fell on their faces.

But soon afterward a terrible calamity fell upon the family of the high priest. Two of the sons of Aaron took each his censer and burned fragrant incense before the Lord. But they transgressed His command by the use of “strange fire.” They took common instead of the sacred fire which God Himself had kindled. For this sin, fire from the Lord devoured them in the sight of the people.

Next to Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu had stood highest in Israel. They had been especially honored by the Lord, having been permitted with the seventy elders to behold His glory in the mount. All this rendered their sin more grievous. Because men have received great light, because they have, like the princes of Israel, ascended to the mount and been privileged to have communion with God in the light of His glory, let them not flatter themselves that they can sin with impunity, that God will not be strict to punish their iniquity. Great privileges require virtue and holiness corresponding to the light given. Great blessings never give license to sin.

Nadab and Abihu had not been trained to habits of self-control. The father's yielding disposition had led him to neglect the discipline of his children. His sons had been permitted to follow inclination. Habits of self-indulgence obtained a hold upon them which even the responsibility of the most sacred office had not power to break. They did not realize the necessity of exact obedience to the requirements of God. Aaron's mistaken indulgence of his sons prepared them to become the subjects of divine judgment. "

Rob comments: " Mrs White comments that using secular human powered words in the context of GOD is the same idea of using natural fire before the Lord, hence one is NOT considered holy before the Lord. Using the holy words of promised power, from faith used correctly is considered the correct holy fire of God's inspired word."

However, I wonder why she does not speak of this amazing literal demonstration of God's presence, the early Hebrews had. Amazing miracles to have holy fire consume the sacrifices.

Again Mrs White writes parallels why the "fire of heaven" comes:-

"Sin has prevailed since the fall. While a few have remained faithful to God, the great majority have corrupted their ways before him. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was on account of their great wickedness. They gave loose rein to their intemperate appetites, then to their corrupt passions, until they were so debased, and their sins were so abominable, that their cup of iniquity was full, and they were consumed with fire from heaven.

When the Lord brought his people from Egyptian bondage, he led them through the wilderness to prove them, and try them. He promised to be their God, and to take them to himself as his peculiar treasure. He did not prohibit their eating meat, but withheld it from them in a great measure. He gave them food which he designed that they should have, which was healthy, and of which they could eat freely. He rained their bread from Heaven, and gave them purest water out of the flinty rock. He made a covenant with them, that if they would obey him in all things, he would put no disease upon them. But the Israelites were not satisfied with the food which God gave them. They murmured against Moses and against God, and wished themselves back in Egypt, where they could sit by the flesh pots. God in his anger gave them flesh to gratify their lustful appetite, and great numbers of them died in the act of eating the meat for which they had lusted. While it was yet between their teeth the curse of God came upon them. God here teaches his people that he is displeased with their permitting their appetite to control them. The Israelites at times would prefer slavery, and even death, rather than to be deprived of meat.

The curse did not come all at once. It was first felt at Adam's fall, and increased at the murder of Abel, and greatly increased at the flood. Since the flood, as the human family have forgotten God, and have followed in a course of disobedience, and have transgressed his commandments, the curse has rested heavier and heavier upon men and upon the beasts. The trees and all vegetation also have felt the effects of the curse. All through the inspired history are exalted blessings promised upon the people of God on conditions of obedience, and curses threatened for disobedience.

"Many marvel that the human race have so degenerated, physically, mentally, and morally. They do not understand that it is the violation of God's constitution and laws, and the violation of the laws of health, that has produced this sad degeneracy. The transgression of God's commandments has caused his prospering hand to be removed.

Intemperance in eating and in drinking, and the indulgence of base passions have benumbed the fine sensibilities, so that sacred things have been placed upon a level with common things. Nadab and Abihu drank too freely of wine, and the result was, they used common fire instead of sacred, and were destroyed for thus dishonoring God. When appetite is left to control reason, sacred things are not discerned. God expressly commanded the children of Israel not to eat swine's flesh. The heathen used this meat as an article of food. God prohibited the Hebrews the use of swine's flesh because it was hurtful. It would fill the system with humors, and in that warm climate often produced leprosy. Its influence upon the system in that climate was far more injurious than in a colder climate. But God never designed the swine to be eaten under any circumstances. Swine were useful. In a fruitful country, where there was much to decay upon the ground, which would poison the atmosphere, herds of swine were permitted to run free, and devoured the decaying substances, which was a means of preserving health. Other animals were forbidden to be eaten by the Israelites, because they were not the best articles of food.

If the Israelites had manifested a spirit of submission to God's wise prohibitions, he would have removed from them everything injurious to their health, and would have suffered no sickness to be among them. But he gave them what they lusted for, because they would not submit to him.

Appetite has been indulged to the injury of health. Stimulating drinks have been used freely, which have confused the brain and brought down man to the level of the brute creation. While intoxicated, every degree of crime has been committed, and yet the perpetrators have been excused in many instances, because they knew not what they were doing. This does not lessen the guilt of the criminal.

Nadab and Abihu, by drinking wine, beclouded their reasoning faculties, and so lost their sense of sacred things, that they thought they could as well offer common fire as sacred. God did not excuse them because the brain was confused. Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. "

Rob writes further" Now let's consider the immutable nature of God and His "strange act" as the King James Translation write:-

Again I use the words of Mrs White, which as a Hebrew English translator bring the Bible verses of inspiration together...

"God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. “The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act.” Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is “merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, ... forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.” Yet He will “by no means clear the guilty.” “The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.” Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy.... "

Rob writes" Notice the slow suffering nature of GOD upon a nation of sinning:-

Again I use the words of Mrs White, which as a Hebrew English translator bring the Bible verses of inspiration together...

"For four hundred years execution of this sentence had been deferred; but the Amalekites had not turned from their sins. Now the time had come for the sentence, so long delayed, to be executed. "
And again she writes: "

To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” The Lord is “merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, ... forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.” Yet He will “by no means clear the guilty.” Ezekiel 33:11; Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin.

But while inflicting judgment, God remembered mercy. The Amalekites were to be destroyed, but the Kenites, who dwelt among them, were spared. This people, though not wholly free from idolatry, were worshipers of God and friendly to Israel.
"
Rob ponders" So the commandment number six, says Exodus 20:13 "No ratsach" means "no wounding", the judgements include:-

Ex 21:1 ¶ Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
Ex 21:12 ¶ He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

One cannot kill a man, without himself experiencing the second death.

Ex 21:17 Cursing a man is the same as killing that man, ie the death sentence for him.
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

If any Being causes any mischief so that any creature dies, than you who caused this mischief must also die, and this death is eternal and a state of non-existence.

So how immutable are these laws concerning the words written here?


Ps 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Ps 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Pr 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light;
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
--
Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written,
---
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
----
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

R" From Solomon his advice concludes, guard the immutable words of God

-----
Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

R"Not even a Hebrew yud letter is added or removed , all the words of GOD are immutable.

----
Malachi 3:6
“For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Numbers 23:19
“God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


Psalm 102:25-27
“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.
“But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.

Psalm 33:11
The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
R" God's plans are also immutable and written down to show how immutable His laws are.
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;

Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.

Psalm 138:8
The Lord will accomplish what concerns me;
Your lovingkindness, O Lord, is everlasting;
Do not forsake the works of Your hands.

Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Romans 11:29
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Titus 1:2
in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

R" If God cannot lie, God cannot sin.

Hebrews 6:17
Verse Concepts
In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath,

James 1:17
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
----------------------


Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
20 Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.

R" The nature of the immutable commands of kings is storied by Darius and Daniel's dealings with lions for example. Secular powers were considered as equally immutable as God's laws with mankind.
----------------
ECCLESIASTES 3:14
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
-------------------
ECCLESIASTES 7:13
13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
-----------------------

HEBREWS 6:17,18
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Hebrews 6:17 Meaning
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:


----------------------------

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

R" Since GOD cannot change, both of these salvation systems are written into law, long before sinning even began. Both systems are therefore immutable, written long before any sinning ever existed.

-------------------
JAMES 1:17
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Rob searches the Internet for human comments upon this subject:-

Can God sin? www.gotquestions.org/can-God-sin.html

To answer this question, we must first consider who God is. The human mind, however, cannot adequately grasp who He is if it were not for the special revelations He has given us. One avenue of revelation is through God’s creation (Psalm 19:1-6). Creation’s complexity, design, and order lead us to acknowledge there is an awesome Being who brought it into existence and maintains it.

Another avenue is through God’s written Word. From Scripture portions, we may ascertain the attributes, or qualities, that are inherent in God, thus giving us a glimpse of His character. One theologian states that His attributes are “His perfections.” Some of them are: His eternality (Psalm 90:2); His immutability, or unchanging quality (James 1:17); His love (1 John 4:8); His omnipotence, or being all powerful, the Almighty One (Revelation 1:8); His omnipresence, or being everywhere present at all times (Psalm 139:7-11); His holiness, absolute purity and separation from evil (Habakkuk 1:13); His righteousness, or justice (Psalm 11:7); and His truth (Titus 1:2).

This is a brief picture of God who manifested Himself in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the attributes, or perfections, are true for each member of the Godhead. Because God is holy, righteous and true, and He can do nothing inconsistent with Himself, we come to the conclusion that God cannot sin. Since holiness, righteousness, and God’s other perfections are who God is, if God were to sin, He would cease to be God. The fact that God is "holy, holy, holy" prevents Him from doing anything that is unholy, i.e. sinful.

We cannot close, however, without realizing the amazing fact that our holy God involved Himself in mankind’s sin. He sent His one and only Son to this earth to die to pay sin’s penalty. “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God” (1 Peter 3:18). “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by His wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24). “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood” (Romans 3:23-25).

Rob concludes: "if God were to sin, He would cease to be God"
How true is this idea.

The royal law, also known as the ten words, are the ten descriptors of love. Since God is love, the principles of love are immutable and cannot be changed. Not even GOD Himself can change his own character or principles of love.

Therefore GOD cannot transgress His own immutable laws, and remain the sovereign reigner over all the other sinless creatures, if GOD disregards the laws He Himself established in the royal law.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (KJV)

The converse is also true:

Jas 2:26 For as the spirit without the body is dead, so works without faith is dead also.

-----------------------


Hypothesis: Was the immutable laws of love written only for humans?

Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)
Is the woman here a symbol of the church, thus only humans, who are required to keep the commandments of GOD? Hence the dragon/satan/devil is wrath with humans keeping the commandments.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If Jesus kept His Father's laws than these laws are immutable.

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Where in the immutable laws of the torah are these requirements?

Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

The law is a judgement concerning the "royal law teaching about no wounding".

Who caused this mischief?

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There is a "Father of Mischief" who is a liar, and a murderer. (these are transgressions of the royal law, number 9 and number 6)

Notice the same requirements are expected of this devil, who is not of human origin.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
The creature causing mischief is written as several names.

Nu 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people,

There are two Hebrew words written about this event, a common idea (the serpent) and a heavenly idea (the saraph, the burning creature)

Isa 30:6 The burning creatures could fly, Isa 6:2 had wings and were Isa 6:6 near the throne of GOD.

In order to investigate , identify these burning creatures who fly, consider these verses:
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

These verse aligns the creatures of burning among stones of fire with another Hebrew word "cherub".

Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
These verses list the cherub as doing chata (sin) also heart lifted up (pride), these are transgressions of the royal law defining sin.

", I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee." suggests the angels that sinned are watched by other sinless beings from other worlds.

The only creatures written with "chata" are humans and angels.

It is interesting to note, in Ezekiel 1 to 10 chapters, the angels are formed much as humans are, and some Hebrew words are used for both humans and cherubs.

Shalom

[Dave]

Hypothesis: Is God immutable?
immutable = unchanging over time or unable to be changed.

In order to test this idea, the following hypotheses are asked:-
Hypothesis: Did GOD codify love into broad principles of law?
There ya go – twist – love is the love that lovers love
Why can’t you just speak in facts instead of making everything an imaginary head game – where only you know the vocabulary and its meaning

What Is God’s Royal law – show me the scripture – if you saw the 10 Commandments I will ask
1- what other God would God worship
2- God made Christ on earth – this violate making images of things in heaven
3- If every day in the presence of the Lord is a Sabbath – how can God forget it
4- who are God’s parents that he must honor

Hypothesis: Is God allowed to sin, to transgress His own laws?
Two question here –
Sin = disobeying God – How can God disobey God
Transgression of the Law that God must follow – Where are the laws written for God to follow

Discussion:
Dave wrote:
D"You think the 10 Commandment were written for God
DUH – God wrote them to man for man
Does God ask Israel to kill people – absolutely
Does God kill people – absolutely
Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
Rob writes" Let's consider your first Bible context:

Rob" I get the idea that GOD is divine fire, and GOD comes to the offering and sacrifice, one cannot use a natural fire, for this process, only God Himself must consume the sacrifice.
2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
Rob" So this is understood to mean GOD HIMSELF visited them with His presence, and the wickedness was immediately burned by the presence of GOD.
OK – so now God took them as a sacrifice by fire
How is this opposite to – God killed them
Oh I read from your commentary – they deserved it – big deal that is not the question
Question – who killed them – God did


Comment from Jamieson-Fausset-Brown:
"Lord, and devoured them--rather, "killed them"; for it appears that neither their bodies nor their robes were consumed (Le 10:5). The expression, "from the Lord," indicates that this fire issued from the most holy place. In the destruction of these two young priests by the infliction of an awful judgment, the wisdom of God observed the same course, in repressing the first instance of contempt for sacred things, as he did at the commencement of the Christian dispensation (Ac 5:1-11)."
YEP =- the fire from Gods was an awful judgment upon them by God
How is this opposite to – God killed them
Oh I read from your commentary – they deserved it – big deal that is not the question
Question – who killed them – God did

Comment from John Wesley
" V. 2. From the Lord-From heaven, or rather from the sanctuary. Devoured them-Destroyed their lives; for their bodies and garments were not consumed. Thus the sword is said to devour, 2Sa 2:26. Thus lightning many times kill persons, without any hurt to their garments.
OK – the fire from God can kill a person with harming his clothing
Question – who killed them – God did

Comment by Charles Spurgeon
The devouring flame flashed right across the mercy seat and slew them. Think of that, and remember … Even our God is a consuming fire.
Rob" So if LOVE is a consuming FIRE, than LOVE cannot tolerate the presence of RA, so anybody found missing God's grace, is immediately consumed by His presence.
OH – so you are saying God loved them to death
Question – who killed them – God did

Ex 21:1 ¶ Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
Ex 21:12 ¶ He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
One cannot kill a man, without himself experiencing the second death.
So – your God must die at the second death for his divine judgment upon sinners
Your respect for God is amazing

Ex 21:17 Cursing a man is the same as killing that man, ie the death sentence for him.
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
God cursed man in Gen 3:15 – therefore your God is a killer
God cursed Cain Gen 4 – therefore your God is a killer

If any Being causes any mischief so that any creature dies,
So God must die for Gen 3 and Gen 8 and Rev 20? So God must die because of His divine judgment

Numbers 23:19
“God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
But you believe God must follow the Laws He gave to man – but God is not a man

Can God sin? www.gotquestions.org/can-God-sin.html
To answer this question, we must first consider who God is.
To answer this question, we must first define the term sin – because Roberts thinks everything is a sin
Without a definition – your comments are meaning less

Sin = disobeying God
Rob concludes: "if God were to sin, He would cease to be God"
I agree that it is impossible for God to disobey God

Therefore GOD cannot transgress His own immutable laws, and remain the sovereign reigner over all the other sinless creatures, if GOD disregards the laws He Himself established in the royal law.
OK – so your God has lost His sovereignty because He judges sinner to die twice

Ooops! God violates your Laws for Him
So who is going to put God to death for all these transgression of your law for Him
Will your satan god do it - or just you alone

-----------------------

Hypothesis: Was the immutable laws of love written only for humans?

Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)
Is the woman here a symbol of the church, thus only humans, who are required to keep the commandments of GOD? Hence the dragon/satan/devil is wrath with humans keeping the commandments.

Almost Robert – hence the dragon, the devil – who are also called a satan

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Where in the immutable laws of the torah are these requirements?
YEP – and God laid His mortal life down for His fellow man - agreed
Robert absolutley denies this - jesus could not be divine if there is only One True God

Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
So – your God must be put to death – because he judges the sinner to death

Who is going to put God to death - your satan - or just you?

You posted this video to make a point – it is your point

Jun 24, 2021 5:03:18 GMT -5 Dave said:

Sept 12, 2020 9:56:24 GMT -5 Dave said:

D Does God sin when he does this – your video says no – it is God Majestic Authority
R I must watch this video you claim is mine?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-DuLOXng8

Watch your own video – Answer - @ 07:30 into the video – God does kill people – Yes many and often

Yet – you deny your own view – AMAZING and consistent double speaker – make up your mind

Who caused this mischief?
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil
WAIT – what happened to cherub chata – the devil is an Archon general – you posted evidence suggestion that the devil was actually Azazal of Gen 6

Are you talking about the Beast and his devil
Or are you talking about cherub chata?

Notice the same requirements are expected of this devil, who is not of human origin.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
The creature causing mischief is written as several names.

And it is too bad you do not care to identify the creature
The dragon, is the devil – OK one of them is that old (archonious) serpent – OK
And all of them can be called a satan – I agree

The dragon=the devil=the serpent=the satan as one creature is a myth

Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an "satan" against him.

An angel of the Lord stood as a satan against man – as a satan

This has nothing to do with
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Your satan god of Exk 28 had time to enjoy the heavens – walked with God – was cherished

Eze 28:15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.
Eze 28:16 By the abundance of your trade they filled you within with violence. So you have sinned.

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Rev 12:2 She is pregnant—crying out in birth pains, in agony to give birth.
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.
Rev 12:4 His tail sweeps away a third of the stars of heaven—it hurled them to the earth. Now the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that whenever she gave birth he might devour her child.
Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to His throne.

The Great Red Dragon – the Beast – was never cherished by God – never walked with God – never enjoyed the heavens – it immediately devoured and corrupted – thrown to earth

Your satan god is not the beast of revelation
You say your satan god was a nice loving angel like all the rest – then cherub chata and 1/3rd of the other good angels then cherub chated also
The Beast of Revelation APPEARED in the heavens before the Son that rules

Gen 1 – creation
Gen 2 – the Great Red Dragon – choshesk
Gen 3 – the Light of salvation

Cathar Gnostics saw the Beast as physical creation – the corruption of the incorruptible spirit – the corporeal visible opposed to the invisible spiritual
The Nag Hammdi simple suggest that the angels and man were created spiritually (in the invisible heavens)
The Beast (First Archon) was just the first - sentient / thinking creation made of matter
And its first thoughts were only of himself (self) and though he was alone and the first

The Beast / Dragon of Revelation 12 – has nothing to do with cherub chata
Not related in any way

Satan of the ahl is God’s loyal servant – heavens prosecutor
Satan of the ahl is God’s anger

Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an "satan" against him.

God’s anger = an angel of the Lord – as a satan

2Sa 24:1 Now the anger of Adonai again flared up against Israel, so He incited David
1Ch 21:1 Then satan stood up against Israel and incited David
God’s anger = an angel of the Lord – as a satan

Why does an angel carry out God’s anger?
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one.

God does not do it directly – He has a staff for that

JOB – did God say – satan go and see if you can make Job sin
Answer – NO – the contest was to see if Job would curse God in the end
Did a lot of sin happen along the way – sure – we are talking about the behavior of men
Did harm occur (ra) – sure – did satan do it – no men did it
Question – could satan make Job curse God?
Answer – NO – satan cannot rule your thoughts – does nor rule anyone

In the ahl – we have King Solomon
Christians teach – the wisest King that ever lived
Yet -= you preach – his words are not to be trusted – he lies
He spoke of Beelzebub and his shedim
They are ugly creatures of matter – gross shapes and forms – that feed off of human fear and greif
This is the ahl Beast with 10 horns and 7 crowns
This is the group of the serpent – who was on earth in fleshly form (serpent) before Eve
Or Nu 21:6

This group has nothing to do with - God’s anger = an angel of the Lord – as a satan
Or - Num 22, 2 Sam 24/1 Chr 21, 1 Kings 22 – or any other reference

agl satanas
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire.

No one rules man – all that the accuser can do is tempt us – suggest – entice – make it desirable
Man has the Free Will to choose – it is always man’s choice – always man’s fault

agl satanas is the WORLD – is the yester ra with us (self)
agl satanas is the Dragon that is waiting to consume – with its 10 + 7
agl satanas is the choshek of Gen 1:2
agl satanas is any creature that - tempts us – suggests – entices – makes it desirable
anything WORLDLY you choose over God

Do the archon exist – absolutely
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Principalities (archon) – are our real struggle – and the invisible power behind them

Where did they come from
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.

By God for God

This has nothing to do with Ezk 28
This has nothing to do with the satan of the ahl that is a servant of God
Acting as God’s anger or God’s prosecutor

Dec 27, 2019 16:33:38 GMT -5 @robertt said:

So the opponent is only an opponent to Job, in Job's story? Fair enough[/
So where would you go looking to see if "opponent" actually "opposes" GOD?
Line upon line, here and there, remember, how to read Scripture?

All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, I need only one verse, apart from Ezek , I have Rev 12. There was war in heaven?

Ezk 28 and Rev 12 have absolutely NOTHING to do with one another

The SDA attempt to deny our real struggle and just focus of the wrong impression of the ahl satan
Is just more Roman cover up of the truth

Just embrace the myth of Fallen angels that Rome promotes
God is really NOT in control – can’t even maintain the loyalty of the angels He made specifically to praise and serve
A single angel overthrew God’s Kingdom and rewrote all biology into corruption – evolved into a god like strong authority – that hates God and promote Halloween
That teach the concept – that something can fall from God’s Grace – ridicules

Your satan god idea is a catholic MYTH – designed to misdirect your attention
I have known you for 2 years now – all I really know of you is that you fully endorse an angel named satan as a god of strong authority and how much you deny the spirit
And in a forum read by others – you have successfully demonstrated that the only conversation you care about is the validation of satan as the god of evil

Jun 24, 2021 5:03:18 GMT -5 Dave said:

You told me words experience cultural drift over time? No words don't, but culture does.

[/font]
ttps://ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/508/word-study-h3629?page=1&scrollTo=5853
awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you[/quote]

Jun 24, 2021 5:03:18 GMT -5 Dave said:

D"I have begged you from day 1 to give me one reference – even offered to join your cult if you do: You cannot – therefore you do not

awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you

Jun 24, 2021 5:03:18 GMT -5 Dave said:

D"OK Mathew said at least two years before Herod died – Luke says 6-9 years later when another was king and the Roman Census took place
"R you raise a good point.
OK show me the verses in Scripture that speak of these issues you raise. You have my fullest attention, DUH Robert – you are about a year behind – with this and so many questions
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/410/nt-errors

awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you

Jun 20, 2021 23:24:43 GMT -5 Dave said:

"How old is the Earth - Creation or Evolution - Seminar by Don Patton" let's begin with this video you watched.
Feel free to attack the video principles.

Why don’t you just finish what you started?
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/492/don-patton-creation-ministries

awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you

Jun 20, 2021 23:24:43 GMT -5 Dave said:

When I asked him about Paul’s ongoing 7th Day – how can Paul – who was raised a Hebrew Jew use the word wrong? Or differently? How can it be 24 hrs?
Robert refuse to answer and the topic changed

Please state the verse Paul wrote and clarify your claim.

Why don’t you just finish what you started?
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/post/2462/quote/305

awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you

AND - when an angel serves as the anger of the Lord
Why is it a sin to obey the Lord?

[Dave]

Jun 26, 2021 23:20:10 GMT -5 Dillon said:

Satan is often used as a proper name in Christianity today, but it is actually a descriptor or a title. In the ancient Hebrew versions of the Old Testament, there are repeated appearances of figures called satan or sometimes ha satan. These words mean, respectively, “an adversary” and “the adversary.” The figures do not always act like the Devil that Christians envision. The various figures alternately test, torment and spare various righteous people. Depending on how satan acts in each story, modern translations refer to the character in a variety of ways. The Hebrew ha satan is translated as “the Enemy,” “Satan” and, in one notable case in Numbers, “an angel of the Lord.” The word satan is also used to describe human enemies such as Hadad the Edomite.

The use of the word “satan” gets a bit more complicated in the New Testament due to how many different languages the ancient texts were written in. Sometimes “satan” is used as a proper name, but other times the tradition of the Old Testament continues, and the word is used more as a descriptor than a name.

ahl satan is not the Beast of Revelation and his offspring
Two different groups

Even secular definitions can see the difference

Only Roman theology calls them one group termed Fallen Angels and promotes Halloween
Only Robert preaches that these Roman Fallen angels rule all man and force men to sin

In Judaism - the archon (shedim) are just another group of creatures within God's creation that serve a purpose / have a role within God's creation - just like termites or bacteria or cows

Do termites, bacteria, or cows hATE and oppose God - No - they just do what they do
as they exist to serve self - self-preservation - instinct - of the flesh - COREPORIAL MATTER

[Deleted]

D" What Is God’s Royal law – show me the scripture – if you saw the 10 Commandments I will ask
D" 1- what other God would God worship


R: Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Funny how you say GOD is cardinally ONE, when this command speaks of elohiym as plural, and nobody can deny this? But you ask how can Elohiym break this rule of Elohiym?

How many providers (the Hebrew meaning of ab {father} ) can there be within elohiym in heaven? You question, depends upon how you define "elohiym" ?

To me, Scripture defines "elohiym" as a "family", while "el" is defined as a single member.
The divine family creates as one provider, not three providers. Hence the royal law could be transgressed by the divine family always chooses not to.

Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Jesus created all things using His words spoken, but the HS took those words and using the power of the Father, wrought those words into action. Hence one heavenly power created.

Your Gnostic writings write that trhe HS without using her usual consort, created the first archon from some matter, this is now two providers within elohiym. Or since you see the HS as an expression the Father, you have only essentially one God, your commandment here cannot be transgressed. But than you violate the term "elohiym" since it is plural here.

But since you say GOD created the archons to be real agents of RA, there can be no bad elohiym powers that can be before elohiym's face? So whom does this command refer to, if humans are not ruled by archons who claim to be powers that oppose elohiym, ie other elohiym powers.

D" 2- God made Christ on earth – this violate making images of things in heaven
R" I thought Christ pre-existed? The command refers to creating some other covering of powers apart from that which is divine .

D" 3- If every day in the presence of the Lord is a Sabbath – how can God forget it
R" The command does not say every day, it says on the seventh day GOD rested.

D" 4- who are God’s parents that he must honor
R" The Hebrew "ab" and "em" are difficult to render into English. "ab" means provider.
I suggest "em" means responder.

Since you do not have a picture of elohiym as a family, you cannot answer the command, but I can, since elohiym is a family.


R" Hypothesis: Is God allowed to sin, to transgress His own laws?
D" Two question here –
Sin = disobeying God – How can God disobey God
R" Sin is defined as transgressing the laws of love. Not disobeying GOD per se'

D: "Transgression of the Law that God must follow – Where are the laws written for God to follow
R:" Love is written in Hebrew as two words, hence the masculine love kind and the feminine love kind. Love is written down as words. These words are therefore defining love. Hence a divine family can indeed follow these laws. But a single divine god cannot, since you assume elohiym is cardinally one god. Nor is elohiym independent as three gods. That is as Jews say a pagan picture.

Rob" So this is understood to mean GOD HIMSELF visited them with His presence, and the wickedness was immediately burned by the presence of GOD.
D" OK – so now God took them as a sacrifice by fire
How is this opposite to – God killed them
Oh I read from your commentary – they deserved it – big deal that is not the question
Question – who killed them – God did
R" First GOD doesn't kill anybody...not does GOD wound anybody of their right to choose salvation. All have sinned and thus require the Grace of GOD. Only GOD is living. GOD is also a love that is like fire, love consumes RA and thus SIN. Not in the way of killing it, but in the way of opposing it.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Notice this example of the striking as Jeff Benner puts it, the second death is more about the atoms from your face fall apart and you literally fall into a state of non-existence.

Meaning when GOD leaves you (ie your soul) you cease living.

Since GOD is the author of living, and all humans lives under His grace, despite our sinning, than surely GOD has to love us fully one day, some receive GOD's full love more in time than others, because their sinning may wound others who have not decided GOD correctly. In other words allowing some wicked people to wound others is not fair, so GOD decides to love them fully and they are consumed by God's presence. Are we humans allowed to judge GOD who loves sinners but hates sin?



R" Comment from Jamieson-Fausset-Brown:
"Lord, and devoured them--rather, "killed them"; for it appears that neither their bodies nor their robes were consumed (Le 10:5).
D" YEP =- the fire from Gods was an awful judgment upon them by God
How is this opposite to – God killed them
R" One can doubt GOD's love. Is love a killing agency? I don't think so. Love is about living. Sin is about dying. The only reason sinners are living is because of God's mercy. Does GOD have the right to love you as a sinner fully? Well yes. But if you have a single sin in your life, this love would consume you.

D" Question – who killed them – God did
R" Human reasoning. God is the author of living. God can only be the author of living.
If the creature misses love in their lives, the wages of missing is death. If the creature cannot remain living when GOD fully comes near them, than the agency of their no longer living, must come from something else? This missing of living is termed "Sin".

R" So if LOVE is a consuming FIRE, than LOVE cannot tolerate the presence of RA, so anybody found missing God's grace, is immediately consumed by His presence.
D" OH – so you are saying God loved them to death
R" Mock. No Isn't LOVE allowed to fully express itself? Why doesn't LOVE fully express itself? Because the creatures have all fallen short and have sinned.

D" Question – who killed them – God did
R" Since the soul is living because the soul is partnered to GOD, that we are essentially yoked to GOD in a relationship every day of our lives. If we are head strong and refuse to be taught by the HS who leads us day by day in the journey of living, than who is the partner in t he relationship to blame? You are. Because you sin. So when finally you are required to meet GOD fully in his love, that love as a fire consumes you because you cannot endure its love and loving. Therefore GOD cannot kill anybody. God is love, but love is a very powerful force, not a weak force at all. Love only appears weak on earth because love is merciful also.


R" If any Being causes any mischief so that any creature dies,
D" So God must die for Gen 3 and Gen 8 and Rev 20? So God must die because of His divine judgment


R" is this not why GOD died as the Lamb for the sin-offering of the world?
R" Can God sin?
D" To answer this question, we must first consider who God is.
R" Scripture defines "elohiym" as "Family"
1) family of judges (Judges)
2) family of pagan deities
3) Moses and Aaron were family brothers (exodus)
4) GOD is a divine family. (eph 3: 15,16)

D" To answer this question, we must first define the term sin – because Roberts thinks everything is a sin
R" Anything without faith, is missing GOD's powers, yes.
D" Without a definition – your comments are meaning less

Sin = disobeying God
R" Sin is not defined as disobeying GOD per se'
Sin is defined as lawlessness, transgression of law.

Rob concludes: "if God were to sin, He would cease to be God"
D" I agree that it is impossible for God to disobey God
R" Yes because you have only cardinally one God who exists as three expressions of the Father.
I follow Scripture which presents elohiym as a family of el. These Hebrew terms are used differently for a reason.

el = strong authority
eloah = the Strong Authority Behold the Most High Provider (used to mean heavenly Father or pagan deity as a Father)
elohiym = family, from whom the father's power flows.
Thus we have one flow, one spring of love.


R" Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Where in the immutable laws of the torah are these requirements?
D" YEP – and God laid His mortal life down for His fellow man - agreed
R"


R" Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
D" So – your God must be put to death – because he judges the sinner to death
R" The sin-offering must die, yes. The Lamb of GOD for a sin-offering for all the worlds confessed sins. In Hebrew olah is a volantry offering.

D"Watch your own video –
R I must watch this video you claim is mine?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-DuLOXng8

D" Answer - @ 07:30 into the video – God does kill people – Yes many and often
R" This video was chosen by YOU, not me, It is not my video.
Albert Mohler - "Does God Really Kill People?"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-DuLOXng8

16:04 agents used to kill people
Maybe a language problem?
drive them out, other places says kill them.
17.6 maybe Jews wrote as they saw it... not inspired...falllible word of God?
23:51 which text goes into which bucket? 1, 2 3
25 killed for opposing God, or idolatry
DO we judge God by our moral terms?
25:41 Judge God by our decency...
Can we humans judge GOD? Can we really judge them?
28 fallacies that Cross is immoral...
31:38 They lied to HS... Richard Dawkins... Jesus is not merely the prince of peace...
Jesus is a rider, flames of fire... armies of heaven... sword....
33:27 Rob: "Jesus is judge that kills?? anyone not written in Book of life.
35 Who does God rightly kill? God kills everyone...wages of sin is death.
Rob concludes from watching your video YOU asked me to watch"
The speaker does not really the question that well.
No ratsach, does not mean kill, its means no wounding.
In the judgements of this royal law, it details into other meanings

Ex 21:12 ¶ He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

This is a different Hebrew word added to the "no wounding command", So anybody who kills a man, must experience the second death.

I would say elohiym does strike some kinds of man, to consume them, so they experience the second death, a state of non-existence permanently.

God can fairly do this because Jesus experience the second death experience for 3 days and 3 nights, but was sinless Himself. Jesus paid the penalty for mischief.
This process is termed judgement. It has happened to some sinners whose sinning gets to a point where it wounds other sinners. But ultimately all humans will be judged by GOD who alone is sinless and thus can judge us correctly.

---------------------------------------

D"The Beast / Dragon of Revelation 12 – has nothing to do with cherub chata
Not related in any way
R" That is your opinion.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Clearly the terms are listed as coming from one creature.


R" Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an "satan" against him.
D" God’s anger = an angel of the Lord – as a satan
R" malak does not mean "angel" it means "messenger".

D" Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one.
God does not do it directly – He has a staff for that
R" we have been through this before, off topic.

D" Christians teach – the wisest King that ever lived
Yet -= you preach – his words are not to be trusted – he lies
He spoke of Beelzebub and his shedim
They are ugly creatures of matter – gross shapes and forms – that feed off of human fear and grief
This is the ahl Beast with 10 horns and 7 crowns
This is the group of the serpent – who was on earth in fleshly form (serpent) before Eve
R" we have been through this before, off topic.

D" No one rules man – all that the accuser can do is tempt us – suggest – entice – make it desirable
R" Really

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Why does the Prince of the World have to find some SIN in Jesus? Jesus would not have normally sinned on his own, the Prince of the World would have to have forced Jesus to sin somehow? But Jesus did not sin.

Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

How does Jesus judge the Prince of this World?

Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Jesus offers His life for our life of death so we can receive Jesus offer of living.
Jesus also pays the price for mischief. One day it will be mischief causer to die to eternal second death, for the mischief He caused.




D" Principalities (archon) – are our real struggle – and the invisible power behind them
Where did they come from
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
By God for God
This has nothing to do with Ezk 28
R" GOD created all the creatures, yes. But GOD did not create their sinning.

But you quote this verse

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil "RA": I the LORD do.
GOD creates RA, so humans can see their sinning, does not make GOD the author of SIN.



D" Ezk 28 and Rev 12 have absolutely NOTHING to do with one another
R" I thought both refer to "cherub" angels Duh?

D" Just embrace the myth of Fallen angels that Rome promotes
R" SO because Jews do not have a concept of Satan from their Hebrew Ezekiel does NOT mean the prophet who wrote God's words is false. The readers chose not to read the torah, they were blinded as Scripture says.

Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

If you do not seek GOD, your reading of Scripture is closed, you become blind.

Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

ANd the book becomes sealed for you.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

SO the men follow the precepts of men, not the holy Scriptures of God.

Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,

Wow God does a wonder even in the days of the Jews? What wonder is promised?

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD,

The blind Jew will see, the deaf Jew will hear, the proud Jew becomes a meek Jew.

Isa 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding,

I must understand this was written by a prophet for Jews right?


D" God is really NOT in control – can’t even maintain the loyalty of the angels He made specifically to praise and serve
R" God is always in control, the relationships angels have are free will relationships.
If you decide to rebel, does GOD respect that right, but be always in control?


D" A single angel overthrew God’s Kingdom and rewrote all biology into corruption – evolved into a god like strong authority – that hates God and promote Halloween
R" Mock and doubt Ezekiel the prophet's words in chapter 28. Your choice.

D" That teach the concept – that something can fall from God’s Grace – ridicules
R" The word chen "grace" means "beauty" according to Jeff Benner. Where does something fall in beauty? When it runs down hill and wear out? Why? Because it is cursed...

Why was Creation cursed? because Adam, the prince oover our world, sinned. And another prince over our world took over. But Jesus took the kingship back again from the prince of this world.


D" awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you
R" You list many themes and questions I have to respond to. Sorry too many themes, overwhelm me, one theme at a time.... until you agree with me. No point adding more discussion if we disagree to the discussions we already discuss.

D"Only Roman theology calls them one group termed Fallen Angels and promotes Halloween
Only Robert preaches that these Roman Fallen angels rule all man and force men to sin

R" Your opinion. Scripture says otherwise.

Ge 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

"chataah" is personified here as a ruler than rules over you. When you sin, you can confess your sin unto a sin-bearer. That is called a sin-offering that rules over you, because the wages of sin-offering is death. You have little understanding where sin originated from.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

This does not mean sinners can blame the Father of Sin for their sinning. But one caused mischief and hence a provider of sin. God holds this creature accountable for the origin of sin.

SHalom

[Dave]

D" What Is God’s Royal law – show me the scripture – if you saw the 10 Commandments I will ask
D" 1- what other God would God worship
R: Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Funny how you say GOD is cardinally ONE, when this command speaks of elohiym as plural, and nobody can deny this? But you ask how can Elohiym break this rule of Elohiym?
So you admit it – you deny there is only One True God – you believe in a pantheon of gods
And you cannot tell the difference between the Creator and the archon ‘other gods’ of the Levant

Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Jesus created all things using His words spoken, but the HS took those words and using the power of the Father, wrought those words into action. Hence one heavenly power created.
Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 
God is the one True creator – you deny that Jesus Christ is God
But them you post this – double speaker

but the HS took those words and using the power of the Father, wrought those words into action
Shall I quote you? - the HS cannot create

But since you say GOD created the archons to be real agents of RA,
Why do you deny scripture – Col 1:16 Paul says - they were made by Him for Him
I believe scripture as written – - you absolutley disagree with Paul and his scripture

Paul says they are our real struggel - you absolutley disagree with Paul and his scripture
In fact - you went to great lengths to write the principlaities out of Eph 6
You went to great lengths with a word game trying your best to miss-represent scripture - Christian

D" 2- God made Christ on earth – this violate making images of things in heaven
R" I thought Christ pre-existed? The command refers to creating some other covering of powers apart from that which is divine .
Yes Christ pre-existed in the invisivble heavens since the beginning
So when God created (Fathered ) Jesus Christ as the Son of man – he was making an image of something that pre-existed in heaven
A violation of the 10 Commandments written for man
Or are you saying that it is OK to make images of God - just not angels

D" 3- If every day in the presence of the Lord is a Sabbath – how can God forget it
R" The command does not say every day, it says on the seventh day GOD rested.
And that 7th day is still ongoing – but that is one of those questions you refuse to address - because it up sets your 6 24 hour day absoluteness - so you avoid answering

or are unable to address - or just don't have an answer - afraid to look at it - the true behaviour of a real student of the word of God
Still awaiting your response

D" 4- who are God’s parents that he must honor
R" The Hebrew "ab" and "em" are difficult to render into English. "ab" means provider.
I suggest "em" means responder.
So – you admit it – you deny that the Creator is the ultimate cause
Just who created your god?

R" Hypothesis: Is God allowed to sin, to transgress His own laws?
D" Two question here –
Sin = disobeying God – How can God disobey God
R" Sin is defined as transgressing the laws of love. Not disobeying GOD per se'
Nice catch all – sin can be anything you say it is -

Question – who killed them – God did
R" First GOD doesn't kill anybody...not does GOD wound anybody
WOW – no there is no punishment for sin – no pain of death
Gen 2:17 - God said, if you eat it you will מות תמות׃
It was your god that lied to Adam

R" If any Being causes any mischief so that any creature dies,
D" So God must die for Gen 3 and Gen 8 and Rev 20? So God must die because of His divine judgment
R" is this not why GOD died as the Lamb for the sin-offering of the world?
Then why do you present it - it your law that your god must follow

D"Watch your own video –
R I must watch this video you claim is mine?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-DuLOXng8
D" Answer - @ 07:30 into the video – God does kill people – Yes many and often
R" This video was chosen by YOU, not me, It is not my video.
Albert Mohler - "Does God Really Kill People?"

Sep 5, 2020 at 2:15pm Robert said:

Sept 5, 2020 15:15:03 GMT -5 @robertt said:

They believed that the same God who thundered
from Sinai, and who later sent his son into
the world, had revealed to Israel the form
of a perfect republic.

The Ten Commandments, then, stand for a
philosophy of law and government that is central to
the American system.

God is unchangeable, totally subject to His own laws, cannot by any means violate these laws.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-DuLOXng8  

Watched a bit, but heavy download.

Now you are just not being honest – did you forget you posted it to make a point
Go back and read your own post - the entire thread
Do you no longer support you own reference?

Ex 21:12 ¶ He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
This is a different Hebrew word added to the "no wounding command", So anybody who kills a man, must experience the second death.
And God sentences all sinners to death – so who is going to put your God to death – your satan god or you personally

---------------------------------------


R" Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an "satan" against him.
D" God’s anger = an angel of the Lord – as a satan
R" malak does not mean "angel" it means "messenger".
OK so God’s messenger is the satan –
I didn’t realize I was asking you the wrong question – I apologies
Now – tell me why is is a sin for a messenger of God to stand as a satan
I didn’t mean to confuse you with your complicated vocabulary

How is God’s messenger an opponent of God?
I didn’t mean to confuse you with your complicated vocabulary

D" awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you
R" You list many themes and questions I have to respond to. Sorry too many themes, overwhelm me, one theme at a time.... until you agree with me. No point adding more discussion if we disagree to the discussions we already discuss.

These are not new questions I am overwhelming you with
These are an accunmulation of unanswered question by you
These are the questions you have avoided answereing - so you can kept promoting your satan god

And Yet - I have been patient and played every gamne you have tried
Not a two way discvussion - not a study of scripture
You only attack and oppose
You only choose to defend your satan - Christian

So every time a question comes up you cannot answer –
You just keep pushing your satan doctrine
And now that you have generated a whole list of unanswered questions –
NOW - You refuse to participate because I will not bow to your satan god

Jun 26, 2021 20:57:29 GMT -5 Dave said:

Your satan god idea is a Catholic MYTH – designed to misdirect your attention
I have known you for 2 years now – all I really know of you is that you fully endorse an angel named satan as a god of strong authority and how much you deny the spirit
And in a forum read by others – you have successfully demonstrated that the only conversation you care about is the validation of satan as the god of evil

Jun 24, 2021 5:03:18 GMT -5 Dave said:

You told me words experience cultural drift over time? No words don't, but culture does.
ttps://ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/508/word-study-h3629?page=1&scrollTo=5853
awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you

Jun 24, 2021 5:03:18 GMT -5 Dave said:

D"I have begged you from day 1 to give me one reference – even offered to join your cult if you do: You cannot – therefore you do not

awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you

Jun 24, 2021 5:03:18 GMT -5 Dave said:

D"OK Mathew said at least two years before Herod died – Luke says 6-9 years later when another was king and the Roman Census took place
"R you raise a good point.
OK show me the verses in Scripture that speak of these issues you raise. You have my fullest attention, DUH Robert – you are about a year behind – with this and so many questions
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/410/nt-errors

awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you

Jun 20, 2021 23:24:43 GMT -5 Dave said:

"How old is the Earth - Creation or Evolution - Seminar by Don Patton" let's begin with this video you watched.
Feel free to attack the video principles.

Why don’t you just finish what you started?
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/492/don-patton-creation-ministries

awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you

Jun 20, 2021 23:24:43 GMT -5 Dave said:

When I asked him about Paul’s ongoing 7th Day – how can Paul – who was raised a Hebrew Jew use the word wrong? Or differently? How can it be 24 hrs?
Robert refuse to answer and the topic changed

Please state the verse Paul wrote and clarify your claim.

Why don’t you just finish what you started?
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/post/2462/quote/305

awaiting your response
as I am waiting for many responses from you

AND - when an angel or messenger serves as the anger of the Lord
Why is it a sin to obey the Lord?

For two years you have attacked and opposed most everything about basic Christianity or even bacsic Judaism – the theology you promote is an abomination to both

I KNOW WHO YOU ARE – and the true value of the Seventh Day Adventist and their worship of satan as a god

Jun 5, 2020 22:39:50 GMT -5 Richard said:

Jun 5, 2020 18:55:58 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Dave writes: "See – you have two Kings and two gods
Yes I have two Kings and two gods opposing each other. What's wrong with that?

Dec 27, 2019 16:33:38 GMT -5 @robertt said:

D - This thread was started to explore who does satan oppose / accuse
I have dealt with my 49 verses
I have answered your 23 verses
Why do you refuse to go through each line and explain to me how each line represents a satan that is anti-God or opposes God – or even disobeys God

You don’t because you Can’t – because satan is not God’s opponent in a war
Satan is God’s obedient servant helping God facilitate God’s plan

Please prove to me that satan is God’s opponet – here are the verses

And your answer is

All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, I need only one verse, apart from Ezek , I have Rev 12. There was war in heaven?

At least we have discovered the value of line by line – it doesn’t matter if it goes against Catholic SDA doctrine

You must be so embarrased that your SDA doctrine cannot adress questions from the audience
cherub chata is the only answer you have for everything - because it is central to your relegion - satan is the central key figure of your cult and the only doctrine you have been trained to preach.

To whom do we give our praise

I challange you to answer - Are you a student of the word of God or not?

[Richard]

I told you long ago that your buddy Robert was not serious.
Didn't he tell us that even his own children are not Christian.
It speaks volumes to his own witness.

Remember how we are to treat those who only wish to disrupt.
What respect can you have for the Lord, if you have no respect for His word.