Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2021 14:19:22 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
I like what you presented. Let's study the Book of Enoch some.
To me, a single error makes the whole book one of deception, whereas an inspired book, such as Moses torah and the propets that agree with Moses torah, do not have errors. Such torah in Hebrew is 100% true.
It is still useful to read deceptive books, pick out the good bits and ignore the bad bits, but it's hard to do, unless God helps you.
Quote: CHAPTER III.
Observe and see how (in the winter) all the trees seem as though they had withered and
shed all their leaves, except fourteen trees, which do not lose their foliage but retain the old
foliage from two to three years till the new comes.
CHAPTER IV.
And again, observe ye the days of summer how the sun is above the earth over against it. And
you seek shade and shelter by reason of the heat of the sun, and the earth also burns with
growing heat, and so you cannot tread on the earth, or on a rock by reason of its heat.
Enoch existed before the Great Flood, in a world of utopia, perfect, and very good.
I suspect the world was perfect circular orbit, 24 hours exact to a day, 360 days to a year, global canopy over earth, ie 1000 km of water canopy, making earth barmy. One land mass only, with fresh water, no salt water anywhere. Huge trees growing using silicon, nor cellulose, possibly 6km high and some over 500m diameter. Cellulose trees happen from Adam's sin, and leaves fall from trees from sin, not because of winter changes.
While I can't prove my theory, neither can be prove so far these words we study.
Two points
all the trees seem as though they had withered
This seems OK to my thinking of the earth paradise, now affected by the RA effects of Adam's sin.
the days of summer how the sun is above the earth over against it
Season changes did not exist in Edenic earth, as we understand appointed times
Ge 1:14 ¶ And God <'elohiym> said <'amar>, Let there be lights <ma'owr> in the firmament <raqiya`> of the heaven <shamayim> to divide <badal> the day <yowm> from the night <layil>; and let them be for signs <'owth>, and for seasons <mow`ed>, and for days <yowm>, and years <shaneh (in pl. only),>:
Mowed does not refer to seasons, but "appointed times".
It is possible the trees made fruits every month all the time, the appointed times may refer to time clocks in the trees where they collectively stopped and started fruit production based on Sabbath times, these are appointed times. Also mentioned in Genesis account.
2. And all His works go on thus from year to year for ever, and all the tasks which
they accomplish for Him, and their tasks change not, but according as God hath
ordained so is it done.
"change not" This is important, The changes we experienced from Adam's sin, did not come from God or some wicked Being, but from the design already created by God. DNA in all things is designed to adapt, change, repair and copy itself without errors. Since sin is defined as missing, as missing flooded over Adam's creation since Adam was Prince of God's creation, the Creation of GOD was designed to "change not".
We note that God created earth with darkness and void already on it, so there is some aspects of darkness already on earth.
"And behold how the sea and the rivers in like manner accomplish and change not their
tasks from His commandments
How true. The law and its commandments, natural laws, do not change.
So before SIN entered from ADAM, the commandments were already in place, and change not.
After ADAM did his SIN, some changes changed on the earth, but this did not require a Creator, nor a change in the natural law. So where did thermodynamics Law and entropy Law, come from? These are word inventions of men, to describe the "missing" when ADAM did one SIN.
We have become used to thinking of ying yan, good bad, hot cold, straight crooked, but these idea suppose changes to commandments, and Enoch says such things do not change.
The only clue to SIN is when it happened, MISSING occurs. God's power becomes missing, when SIN happens, and this causes a change in relationships, not changes in commandments, not changes in Creators.
4. But ye--ye have not been steadfast, nor done the commandments of the Lord,
But ye have turned away and spoken proud and hard words
How true. Changes in relationships.
7. And for you the godless there shall be a curse.
How true.. Cursed was upon the entire earth when ADAM did his one SIN.
So ends chapter one in Enoch.
I do not see so far any hint of a flawed creation as Gnostic writings teach. Only this "season" thing, I would challenge.
Enoch begins OK so far, next we discuss chapter 2.
Shalom
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2021 14:37:29 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
CHAPTER VI.
1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born
unto them beautiful and comely daughters.
2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one
another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.
'
3. And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.'
4. And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by
mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.'
5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.
6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of
Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound
themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.
7. And these are the names of their leaders: Sêmîazâz, their leader, Arâkîba, Râmêêl, Kôkabîêl, Tâmîêl, Râmîêl, Dânêl, Êzêqêêl, Barâqîjâl, Asâêl, Armârôs, Batârêl, Anânêl, Zaqîêl, Samsâpêêl,Satarêl, Tûrêl, Jômjâêl, Sariêl.
8. These are their chiefs of tens.
Many points raised here include:
1 Angels are termed bane elohiym.
2 Fallen angels choose to sin.
3 Enoch describes the angels having free will because they choose to do things, that God did not approve of. Meaning a sin, is by definition, leaving out GOD.
4 These fallen angels decide to have sexual relations with women, causing giants upon the earth.
5 Only a few of the unfallen angels decided to sin.
What I find surprising here DAVE, you do not agree with Enoch material here.
You introduce archons...Are you suggesting when these sinning angels have sex with humans, they make archons? Enoch does not suggest this idea, assuming the material is true.
I will discuss these 5 points later with your Dave.
SHalom
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jan 13, 2021 16:05:54 GMT -5
As for the scroll of Enoch, how do you know it was written later after Enoch and a scroll of deception? It was in print 400 years before the agl was written
It is the second most quoted text inside the agl at 64 verses
The TRURH IS – Enoch was common knowledge to Jesus and all of his audience.After all Enoch would have spoken his messages, not have written them down. This is why it is called the Oral Law/Torah and it finds itself in the Mid Rash and Kabbalah along with the Testament of King Solomon. Is it held with the same weight as Moses or Isaiah - no
Is it totally denied and deemed heresy and error - no
It supplements
[/b] Greetings Dave Let's study the Book of Enoch some. To me, a single error makes the whole book one of deception, whereas an inspired book, such as Moses torah and the prophets that agree with Moses torah, do not have errors. Such torah in Hebrew is 100% true. It is still useful to read deceptive books, pick out the good bits and ignore the bad bits, but it's hard to do, unless God helps you. Mathew says Jesus was born at least two years prior to Herod’s death in 4BC Luke says is was in 6 AD after the next king and Roman governor were in place Which Gospel must be discarded in its totality Robert In the Book of Acts Steven says the Petrarch’s are buried in the wrong place Which is error – Torah or the Book of Acts? To me, a single error makes the whole book one of deception You say this Robert – but you do not believe it – this is not a conviction you hold Now let’s speak reality – Is Enoch held to the same WEIGHT as Moses or Isaiah – NOThere is no chain of custody – there are errors within Are those errors items completely opposite to the overall message (precept) NO The errors are embellishments / colorful language / the words of simple ancient man in his attempt to describe the complexity – then there are translation / transcription –errors (INCONSISTANCIES) between versions And insertions by others – bastard text – just like the texus receptus and its 13 bastard text that exist in no other translation YES! – all of this is true – and why it is not canon for anyone – but supplementary IF the supplementary message a standalone story / tale / theology / it would be in less weighted – however there are many more supplementary text that support Enoch – as in the Book of Giants – The Book of Creation – The Book Jubilees – the Writings of Solomon + the writing from with the archon realm itself – Allah / Islam / ‘other gods’ All of together support the message of Enoch – support the preceptHave you ever heard of the Good News Bible – even more modern English paraphrase then the NIV No one quotes from this Bible – it is not the source text – it is told in story form for the dullard / simple / man The Revelation of John is inspired – God – the HS – Christ gave him all those words The Apocrypha of John was written by John to other disciples – even if every word may not be inspired – it is still from John – who knew Jesus – talked with Jesus – learned directly from Jesus – both before and after the resurrection – as a group and in private It is still useful to read deceptive books, pick out the good bits and ignore the bad bits, but it's hard to do, unless God helps youGod is the creator – what can possible prove otherwise1Th 5:16 Rejoice always, 1Th 5:17 pray constantly, 1Th 5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Messiah Yeshua. Jas 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. Jas 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. 1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit, 1Th 5:20 do not despise prophetic messages, 1Th 5:21 but test all things, hold fast to what is good, 1Th 5:22 keep away from every kind of evil. How do you what is good or evil (tov and ra) – education / understanding / enlightenment / awakeningIf you are IGNORANT = you are gullible – it happened to Eve If you are IGNORANT = you are gullible – and there are how many Christian cults and sects that prove this point? If you are IGNORANT = you are gullible – Jesus says Mat 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, Yeshua said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. And there are some doctrines out there that teach Jesus is wrong – God’s Kingdom was divided by a cherub chata named satan And there is a Great Controversy between to strong authority figures How do you what is good or evil (tov and ra) – education / understanding / enlightenment / awakeningJoh 14:16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper so He may be with you forever— Joh 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him. You know Him, because He abides with you and will be in you. Joh 3:5 Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:7 Do not be surprised that I said to you, ‘You all must be born from above.’ it's hard to do, unless God helps youThere really is nothing we can do on our own except fail Understanding comes by faith – and faith comes by belief You keep asking me to study how can you have more faithIf you are a CCP die hard communist – you will never see democracy in a good light Until you unlearn – the error we have been taught by our Culture (Roman Edit) and our Church (Roman Edit) We stand naked before the lord hoping to fit into his box Some stand educated before then Lord and force him into their pre-determined box |
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jan 14, 2021 0:25:17 GMT -5
Enoch existed before the Great Flood, in a world of utopia, perfect, and very good.Gen 6:5 Then Adonai saw that the wickedness of humankind was great on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their heart was only evil all the time. Gen 6:6 So Adonai regretted that He made humankind on the earth, and His heart was deeply pained. Gen 6:7 So Adonai said, “I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the ground, from humankind to livestock, crawling things and the flying creatures of the sky, because I regret that I made them.” You have a strange concept of utopiaI suspect the world was perfect circular orbit, 24 hours exact to a day, 360 days to a year Reality check – this is not observable in nature All orbits are elliptical because of the gravitational pull by other celestial objects The Laws of Thermodynamics demand that the earth was rotating faster in the past canopy over earth … one land mass only – agreed – our planet began as a gas giant protoplanetno salt water anywhere – unable to verify – the waters of the four rivers of Eden were fueled by our current mid-oceanic ridges that release pressures from inside the earth. The waters springing from these vents is not “salt-water” by todays definition correct – but they were and are mineral rich – termed ‘brackish’ – they were and are full of salts Huge trees growing using silicon, nor cellulose, possibly 6km high and some over 500m diameter. Absolute rubbish – where is your evidenceCellulose trees happen from Adam's sinAbsolute rubbish – there is no such thing as species changing their kind Plants are the plants they are because God made them that way and leaves fall from trees from sin, not because of winter changes. Absolute rubbish – there is no such thing as species changing their kind Leave fall because it is a part of the cycle of life – cycle of nature – the complex balance of birth- life – death – and rebirth – just as God created it – and it was Good Leave fall because it is a part of the cycle of life – cycle of nature – the complex balance of birth- life – death – and rebirth – just as God created it – and it was Good[/font]". [/quote] God said everything is to reproduce after its own kindPlease listen to your own argumentGod said nothing changes – changes not – you say this is important = then you say The changes we experienced from Adam's sin Which doctrine do you support? – What God says – or what your doctrine says it says?YES! – this was/is the Kingdom/domain of the Archon- before Adam and Eve were introduced - CorrectExcept your satan – who can recreate himself by his own power – and 1/3rd of God’s angels turned into creature Solomon describedJust not consistant with the bulk of scripture Cool Robert – way to omit the best partBook of Enoch 5:7c. And for you the godless there shall be a curse. 6d. And all the . . . shall rejoice, e. And there shall be forgiveness of sins, f. And every mercy and peace and forbearance: p. 34 g. There shall be salvation unto them, a goodly light. i. And for all of you sinners there shall be no salvation, j But on you all shall abide a curse. This is what God told Adam – if you die now, in the future you will also die 7a. But for the elect there shall be light and joy and peace, b. And they shall inherit the earth. 8 And then there shall be bestowed upon the elect wisdom, 1Jn 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about all things—and it is true and not a lie—and just as it has taught you, abide in Him. Salvation for sinners – right here in Enoch – a Jewish supplement text that helped the rabbi form their commentaries / Kabbalah 1 Angels are termed bane elohiym Angels = heavily beings – beings that live in heaven – the invisible realms beyond our view Correct the bane elohiym were once heavenly beings – but were ejected to earth long before man arrived = the bane elohiym are procreated offspiring of the First Archon – therefore called archon 2 Fallen angels choose to sin. No such thing as a fallen angel as you meant Ezk 28 Isa 14 These bane elohiym choose to sin against man and nature – from their position on earth These bane elohiym were already bound to earth - their sin takes place on earth to nature The Nephlim = the ones who cause others to fall The Nephilim were born on earth – no such thing as a fallen angel The archon are made with some matter – they fathered children with mortal women – they were in full mortal form and therefore driven by yester ra 3 Enoch describes the angels having free will because they choose to do things, that God did not approve of. Meaning a sin, is by definition, leaving out GOD. Yes – the archon have the ability to choose how they perform their function Yes – man has the ability to choose to be a plumber or a doctor Neither of these choices involves – the choice to seek God or not You play word games – demand words mean only one thing – but you keep floating the definition of sin to fit your doctrine I so agree with Enoch – very much indeed You know full well that the First Century Messianic Jewish use of the word archon is a colloquism for bad-guy – regardless if it is a spirit being – or a Nephilim demigod Each and every archon – performing the role of a satan – is a satan No I am not suggesting at all – I am saying when these sinning angels (bane elohiym – offspring archon of the First Archon) have sex with humans, they make (Nephilim) archons? Enoch does not suggest this idea YES ENOCH DOES! – you are trying to play a word game to be able to find a fault you can criticize |
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jan 14, 2021 7:40:12 GMT -5
CHAPTER VI. - Many points raised here include: 1 Angels are termed bane elohiym. 2 Fallen angels choose to sin. 3 Enoch describes the angels having free will because they choose to do things, that God did not approve of. Meaning a sin, is by definition, leaving out GOD. 4 These fallen angels decide to have sexual relations with women, causing giants upon the earth. 5 Only a few of the unfallen angels decided to sin. – What you have quoted here – is the Ethoptic Book of EnochIt is the best preserved – it is found originally with Ethiopia Jews and is contained in the Coptic Broader Canon This is not the only source of EnochThe Slavic Enoch is also found within the Jewish MidRash – and its secular origin is Servia It is a much older text – talks of Enoch journey through the 10 heavens - talks of how things were created – is the Enoch that talks of physics This is also the most corrupt version – there are obvious insertion by different authors I love this explanation of how E (pure energy) can exist as hard matterXXIX. AND for all the heavenly troops I imaged the image and essence of fire, and my eye looked at the very hard, firm rock, and from the gleam of my eye the lightning received its wonderful nature, which is both fire in water and water in fire, and one does not put out the other, nor does the one dry up the other, therefore the lightning is brighter than the sun, softer than water and firmer than hard rock. 2 And from the rock I cut off a great fire, and from the fire I created the orders of the incorporeal ten troops of angels, and their weapons are fiery and their raiment a burning flame, and I commanded that each one should stand in his order. POINT – 10 levels of angels – all appear like a burning flame – a spirit – an essenceCreation of the ARCHONSlavic Enoch 26:1 AND I summoned the very lowest a second time, and said: 'Let Archas come forth hard,' and he came forth hard from the invisible. 2 And Archas came forth, hard, heavy, and very red. 3 And I said: 'Be opened, Archas, and let there be born from thee,' and he came undone, an age came forth, very great and very dark, bearing the creation of all lower things, and I saw that it was good and said to him: 4 'Go thou down below, and make thyself firm, and be for a foundation for the lower things,' and it happened and he went down and fixed himself, and became the foundation for the lower things, and below the darkness there is nothing else. Created for a function – a completely different groupMore of the story 1 Angels are termed bane elohiym.
2 Fallen angels choose to sin.Slavic Enoch 18:3 … and three of them went down on to earth from the Lord's throne, to the place Ermon, and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill Ermon and saw the daughters of men how good they are, and took to themselves wives, and befouled the earth with their deeds, who in all times of their age made lawlessness and mixing, and giants are born and marvellous big men and great enmity. POINT these bane elohiym – archon – did not sin in heaven They came to earth – they were on earth FIRST – then man and his daughters began to multiply Then lust / desire – YESTER RA of their matter was the inspiration for their sin / transgression We can go chapter by chapter if you want to But I can’t wait till you get to chapters 46 and 50 |
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jan 14, 2021 13:41:51 GMT -5
Cool Robert – way to omit the best partBook of Enoch 5:7c. And for you the godless there shall be a curse. 6d. And all the . . . shall rejoice, e. And there shall be forgiveness of sins, f. And every mercy and peace and forbearance: p. 34 g. There shall be salvation unto them, a goodly light. i. And for all of you sinners there shall be no salvation, j But on you all shall abide a curse. This is what God told Adam – if you die now, in the future you will also die 7a. But for the elect there shall be light and joy and peace, b. And they shall inherit the earth. 8 And then there shall be bestowed upon the elect wisdom, 1Jn 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about all things—and it is true and not a lie—and just as it has taught you, abide in Him. Salvation for sinners – right here in Enoch – a Jewish supplement text that helped the rabbi form their commentaries / Kabbalah POINT – What you have quoted here – is the Ethoptic Book of EnochIt is the best preserved – it is found originally with Ethiopia Jews and is contained in the Coptic Broader Canon This is not the only source of EnochThe Slavic Enoch is also found within the Jewish MidRash – and its secular origin is Servia 1:4 And God created that sea of His own good pleasure, for He knew what would come of the man He should make; so that after he had left the garden, on account of his transgression, men should be born in the earth, from among whom righteous ones should die, whose souls God would raise at the last day; when they should return to their flesh; should bathe in the water of that sea, and all of them repent of their sins. God knew what was to happen – set the stage and it unfolded just as God knew it wouldConcerning the promise (prophesy) of the great five days and a half. 1st Book of Adam & Eve 3:1 GOD said to Adam, "I have ordained on this earth days and years, and thou and thy seed shall dwell and walk in it, until the days and years are fulfilled; when I shall send the Word that created thee, and against which thou hast transgressed, the Word that made thee come out of the garden and that raised thee when thou wast fallen. 2 Yea, the Word that will again save thee when the five days and a half are fulfilled." 1st Book of Adam & Eve 3:15 And the Word of the Lord came unto Adam and Eve, and raised them up. 16 And the Lord said to Adam, "I told thee that at the end of five days and a half, I will send my Word and save thee. Salvation for sinners – right here in Enoch – a Jewish supplement text that helped the rabbi form their commentaries / KabbalahSalvation by the WORD send the Word that created thee – God I shall send the Word – HS – God in Spirit the Word that raised thee when thou wast fallen. 2 Yea, the Word that will again save thee Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being. 1st Adam & Eve 14:1 THEN Adam said unto God: "O Lord, take Thou my soul, and let me not see this gloom any more; or: remove me to some place where there is no darkness." 2 But God the Lord said to Adam, "Verily I say unto thee, this darkness will pass from thee, every day I have determined for thee, until the fulfilment of My covenant; when I will save thee and bring thee back again into the garden, into the abode of light thou longest for, wherein is no darkness. I will bring thee, to it--in the kingdom of heaven." 3 Again said God unto Adam, "All this misery that thou hast been made to take upon thee because of thy transgression, will not free thee from the hand of Satan, and will not save thee. 4 " But I will. When I shall come down from heaven, and shall become flesh of thy seed, and take upon Me the infirmity from which thou sufferest, then the darkness that came upon thee in this cave shall come upon Me in the grave, when I am in the flesh of thy seed. God incarnate – (God +(Jesus animal Mind/Body)) = Jesus Christ the Son of God + The Son of Man5 "And I, who am without years, shall be subject to the reckoning of years, of times, of months, and of days, and I shall be reckoned as one of the sons of men, in order to save thee." Who died upon the cross in order to save thee – to show you the way Concerning the promise (prophesy) of the great five days and a half.1st Adam & Eve 3:3 But when Adam heard these words from God, and of the great five days and a half, he did not understand the meaning of them. 4 For Adam was thinking that there would be but five days and a half for him, to the end of the world. 5 And Adam wept, and prayed God to explain it to him. 6 Then God in His mercy for Adam who was made after His own image and similitude, explained to him, that these were 5,000 and 500 years; and how One would then come and save him and his seed. 1948 Israel was year 5710 – and we are entering 5782All of this 100% Christian All of it 100% Jewish Kabbalah – and common knowledge to the audience of Jesus Christ All of it common understanding by the Messianic Jews of the First Century All of it Rabbinic Judaism – Pharisee-ism – Chabad – Hasidic – Ashkenazi All of it Gnostic by definition P.S - not on topic but - I am so overwhelmed how everything fits togetherDo you know - are you aware - of the missing 300 years in our history books This is such an interesting topic withing the historical community thoughtcatalog.com/jeremy-london/2018/09/phantom-time-hypothesis-was-a-300-year-chunk-of-europes-dark-ages-completely-made-up/Phantom Time Hypothesis: Was A 300-Year Chunk Of Europe’s ‘Dark Ages’ Completely Made Up?By Jerome London Updated April 15, 2019 Phantom Time Hypothesis claims that the years 614-911 never happened and that we’re actually living in the 1700s right now. FYI - If we are entering Jewish Calandar year 5780 - 300 years = 5482 = 18years until 5500 prophesy fulfillment |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2021 14:10:16 GMT -5
Rob" 1 Angels are termed bane elohiym
Dave" Angels = heavily beings – beings that live in heaven – the invisible realms beyond our view
Correct the bane elohiym were once heavenly beings – but were ejected to earth long before man arrived = the bane elohiym are procreated offspiring of the First Archon – therefore called archon
R" So you agree bane elohiym were angels.
These angels were ejected to earth.
These angels procreated offspring, creating creatures (humanoid demigods) termed archons?
Am I following you correctly?
I thought Gnostic writings says the HS left the consort and created archon herself? This creature became self, and developed more archons using procreation? Though there is no mention of another creature the HS created. Did the HS create one or two creatures that became self? You require gender male and gender female, don't you?
Anyhow, this account is NOT what Enoch is saying is it? Enoch is saying the angels decided to sin, and make creatures from humans, using sex, and thus these became giants. Is this even possible for angels to have sex with humans? These giant humanoid creatures are demigods, termed in the NT archons.
My prophet Ellen White terms this idea, assuming we agree, which we don't, "amalgamation of man with beast", today I would use the term GMO. But I am certainly certain that creatures of different kinds cannot have normal sex together, the DNA (assuming all creatures have similar DNA) do not match up. So angel kinds cannot have normal sexual intercourse with human kinds. Not possible. However a GMO alteration of humans could be possible, however this is not sex as we understand the term? Mrs White doers speak of , "amalgamation of man with beast", but not with angels. So you are assuming the DNA of angels matches the DNA of humans, I very much doubt this. We have biological evidence the DNA of monkeys does not match the DNA of humans, so I doubt angelic kinds are so far different to human DNA. I doubt angels even have DNA? Maybe? Speculation you play upon no evidence.
Please explain how GMO of humanoid giants is possible using angelic creatures?
---------------------
Rob" 2 Fallen angels choose to sin.
Dave" No such thing as a fallen angel as you meant Ezk 28 Isa 14
These bane elohiym choose to sin against man and nature – from their position on earth
These bane elohiym were already bound to earth - their sin takes place on earth to nature
The Nephlim = the ones who cause others to fall
The Nephilim were born on earth – no such thing as a fallen angel
The archon are made with some matter – they fathered children with mortal women – they were in full mortal form and therefore driven by yester ra
R" OK I checked the Author of my pdf Enoch is adding the words "fallen angels" his bias, agreed not directly said by Enoch, but surely implied???
Not according to you. Enoch says the leader angels says I would have to pay the penalty for this great sin. This sentence alone tells you the angels have free will, decide to sin. And sin is a term that means to miss God. Yet somehow you redefine sin to mean something else.
By what authority using Scripture please, can you make sin mean something against nature?
Sin is only a term meaning to miss God, got nothing to do with man or nature. I get the secular use of the word, man using slings also miss their target. But the leader angel is not talking about missing a target in secular terms.
You imply the angels do not do the sins unto humans, the offspring Nephilim do the sins to humans instead.
It seems these angels who choose to sin, are called Watchers by Enoch?
Notice what Enoch says about these angels:
4. 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves wives: "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth:
5. And ye shall have no peace nor forgiveness of sin: and inasmuch as they delight themselves in their children,
6. The murder of their beloved ones shall they see, and over the destruction of their
children shall they lament, and shall make supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace
shall ye not attain."
1. And Enoch went and said: 'Azâzêl, thou shalt have no peace: a severe sentence has gone forth against thee to put thee in bonds:
2. And thou shalt not have toleration nor request granted to thee, because of the
unrighteousness which thou hast taught, and because of all the works of godlessness and
unrighteousness and sin which thou hast shown to men.'
These angels do indeed sin:
: a severe sentence has gone forth against thee to put thee in bonds:
because of the unrighteousness which thou hast taught,
and sin which thou hast shown to men
These angels teach man to fornicate, do adultery, murder, lie, steal and destroy. These are doing things, called transgressions of the royal law, from which sin if defined.
The acts are defined by law, and the royal law was written by the finger of God, not the finger of Moses.
Clearly sin refers to doing things against the moral codes of GOD.
So if these angels sin, they are by definition from human understanding "fallen angels".
-------------------------------------
Rob;" 3 Enoch describes the angels having free will because they choose to do things, that God did not approve of. Meaning a sin, is by definition, leaving out GOD.
Dave: "Yes – the archon have the ability to choose how they perform their function
Yes – man has the ability to choose to be a plumber or a doctor
Neither of these choices involves – the choice to seek God or not
You play word games – demand words mean only one thing – but you keep floating the definition of sin to fit your doctrine
R" The word sin, means to miss. It is used mostly to mean a missing of God. When you break God's universal royal laws, you miss the moral codes God requires of all creatures.
But you say God has no universal moral code for all creatures, including angels.
You say these 10 moral codes are only for man. Angels do NOT follow them, according to you.
If words do not have basic meaning regardless of the creatures we are speaking about, how can we discuss anything at all? Remember Enoch is writing, as a human using words we assume GOD invented, for man to use.
D" YES ENOCH DOES! – you are trying to play a word game to be able to find a fault you can criticize
R "Oh so these sinning angels have sex with humans, to produce Nephilim archons, who further cause more sinning to humans. So the term archons is a term used in the NT to these GMO human angelic creatures Nephilim, today we term archons? You also say some GMO humanoid demigods die and so their spirit wanders around invading humans as evil spirit demons? This implies the spirit form of these hybrids can indeed talk and speak and think and continue to live normally, except they have no material body, they enter the body of living humans? Is that how you think Legion was when Jesus cast them out?
D" We can go chapter by chapter if you want to
But I can’t wait till you get to chapters 46 and 50
R" I doubt I need to proceed further. Enoch material here was not written by Enoch, but by some Jew inspired to write a different account of the Moses torah.
However there are some things I would like you to discuss arising from these ideas?
1) Gnostic writings do not speak of the origin of archons as Enoch does.
Gnostic :
HS without consort creates being who thinks of self and makes archons of itself?
Enoch:
Angels do GMO changes to woman allowing them to bring to being GMO humoid demigods, we term archons today.
How does the angels get permission from GOD to use a spirit being, and place them into every GMO creation? Surely GOD would not allow creatures to become creators?
Does the term "bane elohiym" really refer to angels? Do a simple torah check....
11 verses only
Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Sex can only occur between DNA of the same family kind.
Ge 6:4 ¶ There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Sex can only occur between DNA of the same family kind. Does the Hebrew have the ability to speak of GMO manipulation ? Yes
sha`atnez H 8162 divers, using different material, what we term today GMO.
Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {Satan: Heb. the adversary} {among: Heb. in the midst of}
There is no temple on earth in Job's time for God to meet on earth, so we assume this meeting happens in the temple of God in heaven. Who are these sons of God who meet in heaven?
Job 2:1 ¶ Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
This is perhaps the only text suggesting angels (morning stars) are bane elohiym.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {power: or, the right, or, privilege}
the sons of God are clearly here humans who follow God
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
the sons of God are clearly here humans who follow God
Ro 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
?
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; {harmless: or, sincere} {ye shine: or, shine ye}
?
1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
the sons of God are clearly here humans who follow God
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
(KJV)
the sons of God are clearly here humans who follow God
Not easy identifying Job account.
In Genesis are two human groups, Seth line and Cain line.
One group is called sons of God, Seth line.
The other group is called Cain's line, the children of men.
The giants on the earth, refer to the natural creation of Adam and Eve, who were much taller than us humans today. The reference to 6 toes and 6 fingers suggest genetic mistakes during the normal sex of humans as sin destroyed God's perfect, now flawed DNA code.
You have a lot of explaining that angels had sex with humans producing demigods creatures called archons? Sure you use Enoch and Gnostic material.
From a biological viewpoint this union is impossible.
From the Moses torah, such verses are NOT there.
So I suggest these things are totally fabricated by wicked humans to deceive.
You call the exclusion of this material a Roman edit? I doubt this. It does not agree with the Hebrew torah we already have.
You speak of angels not having free will to choose God should they sin, but you now admit angels do have the ability to think independently. Boy you make confusion.
If humans have DNA, the DNA causes us to choose God or not. The information in the DNA that GOD put there, is our code free will to choose God.
If angels have the same DNA as humans, they also can choose God if they sin. They could also have sex (maybe) with humans. They are genetically compatible? How could you prove all this? Using Bible? No, using a few words from Enoch, a book you trust as supplementary material.
To be honest Dave you follow Enoch and Gnostic writings above torah you use as supplement.
I believe humans were practicing GMO in Enoch times yes. Like we do today, only worse. Where did this information come from? Sinning angels told them how to achieve these feats.
There is so little information regarding the Hebrew terms you quote... you make an entire discourse from so little Hebrew context. Cherub and adam are different kinds, just as canus and adam are different kinds, so normal sex is impossible, as the DNA is not compatible.
I do not see any hint of angels able to have sex with humans, totally impossible. Please explain.
Shalom
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Jan 15, 2021 14:48:36 GMT -5
R" So you agree bane elohiym were angels. Nice try to twist my words – the bad-guy angels are colloquially termed archon
The bad-guy angelic beings (archon) were made differently than the angels that serve and praiseThese angels were ejected to earth.YES! Robert – your favorite verse Rev 12:7 – all the bad-guy angelic beings (archon) were ejected from heaven - CorrectThese angels procreated offspring, creating creatures (humanoid demigods) termed archons?The bad-guy angels that were ejected from heaven are called archon correct
A group of these bad-guy angels (called archon) offspring called (bane elohiym) (who are also dad-guys and therefore called archon)
And these dad-guy angelic beings (archon)(bane elohiym) who are made with some matter – fathered the Nephilim
And the Nephilim are also termed archon – because they are the bad-guys – children of the bad guys
And they are all colloquially termed archon – Correct – bad guy rulers – bad gut strong authorities – devils – demons – shedim – Lillith – are all archonAm I following you correctly?If you are still confused – you choose to be confusedI thought Gnostic writings says the HS left the consort and created archon herself? This creature became self, and developed more archons using procreation? Though there is no mention of another creature the HS created. Did the HS create one or two creatures that became self? You require gender male and gender female, don't you?You spend all your time denying the TrinityPlease read John 1:1-4 – there is nothing that was created that was not created by God The HS is God – but you dent this – you have a pantheon of 3 or more gods that self-love one another This is the only way love can exist – only if there are three independent gods working in consort Trinity believer only have one God – monotheistic You own doctrine force your own confusion The story of the HS making the archon is just a story of the left hand of GodOnly you are confused here – because you choose to beAnyhow, this account is NOT what Enoch is saying is it? Enoch is saying the angels decided to sin, and make creatures from humans, using sex, and thus these became giants. Is this even possible for angels to have sex with humans? These giant humanoid creatures are demigods, termed in the NT archons.YES! – once in the physical world (just like Adam and Eve) - the bane elohiym (aerchon) (offspring of the First Archon) fathered the Nephilim (archon) by mortal women – this is exactly what Enoch saysIs this even possible for angels to have sex with humans?NO it is not – that is why we all understand that the bane elohiym are offspring of the First Archon because they are creature made with some matter – and matter procreates These giant humanoid creatures are demigods, termed in the NT archons.YES – these creatures are ½ bad-guy angelic being (archon) and ½ mortal Just like Hercules They are called archon - because they are of the bad-guy family Just like their fathers (bane elohiym) are called archon - because they are of the bad guy family Just like the Beast - The First Archon - who is the father of them all --------------------- Rob" 2 Fallen angels choose to sin. Dave" No such thing as a fallen angel as you meant itR" OK I checked the Author of my pdf Enoch is adding the words "fallen angels" his bias, agreed not directly said by Enoch, but surely implied???Dave" No such thing as a fallen angel as you meant itYou preach and support Catholic doctrine – ie the fallen agels are a group of God’s most beloved good guy angels – that bercaue bad guy angels and all fell from grace and are demons and devils we face It seems these angels who choose to sin, are called Watchers by Enoch?Correct – al angels – good and bad watch man as he souljourns through this physical contest If you would read farher - other good-guy angels are also called Watchers Notice what Enoch says about these angels: 4. 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves wives: "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: YEP – defiled themselves with women here in this physical world – not in heaven
Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: - absolutely agree – this is their functiopn5. And ye shall have no peace nor forgiveness of sin: and inasmuch as they delight themselves in their children, 6. The murder of their beloved ones shall they see, and over the destruction of their children shall they lament, and shall make supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace shall ye not attain." 1. And Enoch went and said: 'Azâzêl, thou shalt have no peace: a severe sentence has gone forth against thee to put thee in bonds: 2. And thou shalt not have toleration nor request granted to thee, because of the unrighteousness which thou hast taught, and because of all the works of godlessness and unrighteousness and sin which thou hast shown to men.' Yes – and 90% of them are held in chains awaiting Rev 9 then Rev 20
The remaining 10% - fathered the Rephiem – the Nephilim gene pool of the Amorite then dies mortal death and their spirit remain on the earth as the evil spiritsThese angels do indeed sin:OK – you say if I commit a crime again another man – it is a sin So God forced all the Israeli to sin as the murdered all the Amorite These Israeli soldiers commit many crimes against God’s moral code You fail to answer – why is it a sin to obey God Or you have no idea what sin means These angels teach man to fornicate, do adultery, murder, lie, steal and destroy. These are doing things, called transgressions of the royal law, from which sin if defined. God told Israel to commit a complete genocide of the AmoriteThe acts are defined by law, and the royal law was written by the finger of God, not the finger of Moses. Clearly sin refers to doing things against the moral codes of GOD. Does it? So if these angels sin, they are by definition from human understanding "fallen angels". So you think Israel fell from the grace of God by committing the sins God told them to commit
No wonder you are so anti-Semitic ------------------------------------- Rob;" 3 Enoch describes the angels having free will because they choose to do things, that God did not approve of. Meaning a sin, is by definition, leaving out GOD. Dave: "Yes – the archon have the ability to choose how they perform their function Yes – man has the ability to choose to be a plumber or a doctor Neither of these choices involves – the choice to seek God or not You play word games – demand words mean only one thing – but you keep floating the definition of sin to fit your doctrine R" The word sin, means to miss. It is used mostly to mean a missing of God. When you break God's universal royal laws, you miss the moral codes God requires of all creatures. So your God is a sinner – because he murdered a whole lot of people – and he ordered the murder of many more people
Your God is a sinner – your satan has really won you over – not only can your satan oppose god – now you believe God is a sinnerD" We can go chapter by chapter if you want to But I can’t wait till you get to chapters 46 and 50 R" I doubt I need to proceed further. Enoch material here was not written by Enoch, but by some Jew inspired to write a different account of the Moses torah. Sure – a true Christian would not be interested in chapters dedicated to the Messianic Redeemer and those that will be save on His name – all of Enoch is garbage – even though it in print 500 years before Christ and speaks of the Christ and the salvation He will bring – after a time – age an age However there are some things I would like you to discuss arising from these ideas? 1) Gnostic writings do not speak of the origin of archons as Enoch does. Variations on a theme – Slavic Enoch 26:1 AND I summoned the very lowest a second time, and said: 'Let Archas come forth hard,' Gnostic : HS without consort creates being who thinks of self and makes archons of itself? I study precept upon precept – not word upon word From the agl we are told 4 different time that absolutely everything was created by the One True Creator Enoch simply says God did it But a Rabbi would out that God simple summoned the lower world The archon were not created next to God throne – they were created in a lower heaven – and this 3D world = the lowest heaven God Himself is one step removed – God said it but it was of a different source For Judaism – Creation, instruction, and salvation is by the Right Hand of God While the mystery – the archon – is of the left hand These are not two separate creation stories as you want them to be because they use different word ponderingconfusion.com/papers.php?id=psychologyPerspectiveThe basic knowledge we possess is the framework by which our minds process new information. We know more about space today and the idea of the earth being flat is ridicules. Everyone understands this common knowledge today, but on a personal level, our basic knowledge is the end product of our life experience, effected by our cultural and educational biases. Combined that with the revelation that persity among people today is greater than ever before. No wonder twenty people can see an accident and swear to twenty different versions of the same incident.
Just imagine how a college science professor might report the incident. 'After breaking, the momentum of Vehicle A was too great and carried Vehicle into Vehicle B with tremendous energy.'
The extremely upset student that was just graded poorly by that same professor thought that: 'Vehicle A just came out of nowhere and blew Vehicle B away.'
Yet, the empathetic lady saw that, 'The driver of Vehicle A tried their best to avoid Vehicle B by swerving and weaving.'
However, the lady standing next to the empathetic lady had lost her husband to a drunk driver years earlier and interpreted the swerving and weaving much differently.
The religious zealot may swear that if it wasn't for the hand of God, someone may have gotten hurt.
However, the wino sleeping buy the dumpster will swear that a bolt of lightning struck the two cars and caused them to explode. Which sounds absolutely crazy and is so easily dismissed, because of the predigest toward the wino's life style and the potential supernatural context of his statement, until the drivers of both vehicles admit that the sun was shinning in their eyes and reflecting off their windshields.
Detectives are trained to take all twenty statements and evaluate them side by side to search for a central truth. In essence, they are trying to look at the reported event from as many different perspectives as possible. I adopt this strategy/methodology in the search for a more meaningful truth. I intend to examine the issue from as many different perspectives as possible. Giving each perspective weight, yet understanding that any one perspective never includes the entire story.
How does the angels get permission from GOD to use a spirit being, and place them into every GMO creation? Surely GOD would not allow creatures to become creators?What was God’s instructions to satan concerning JobJob 2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!” Did God have to instruct every little detail and them give approval like some micromanager – no He simple gave satan free reign to do has satan could conceive Are you going to argue that the satan and the serpent are only stupid and unable to think on their feet in order to complete their functions – how silly Of course the archon and your satan have the ability to think – so does a cow What does that have to do with the free will to choose God Free Will? NOTHING! You call the exclusion of this material a Roman edit? I doubt this. It does not agree with the Hebrew torah we already have.Why was Enoch common knowledge to the audience of Jesus? Why was the Testament of King Solomon common knowledge to the audience of Jesus Why are 64 Enoch verse repeated in the agl?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 16:18:42 GMT -5
Happy Shabbat Dave
Enoch mentions" 1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters.
2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one
another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.
'
3. And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this
deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.'
You say I am twisting words??
2. And the angels "cherub" , the children of the heaven "bane elohiym" , saw and lusted after them "human woman",
Pity I don't have access to original text in Interlinear fashion, if the word here "angel" here is "aggelos" / "messenger" than Enoch says nothing. If the word is "cherub", problem is Greek does not have this word? SO we have lost in translation issues?? So we ponder confusion together??
Can you clarify what the word "angel" here was in Greek please?
D" Nice try to twist my words – the bad-guy angels are colloquially termed archon
The bad-guy angelic beings (archon) were made differently than the angels that serve and praise
R" again your not explaining things well Dave.
SO are you saying GOD created angels with different functions, some were created to serve and praise, and some created to do bad things, you term "archons"?
Does Enoch allude to this detail of yours? Not as I read it. Please explain/
So your archon angels God created for special functions, who are also bane elohiym, decided to look over the human woman to defile them, as their function by God required them to do?
And after these woman got pregnant, the woman gave birth to demigod humanoid children who grew up to be giant humanoids, termed Nephilim. Again these humanoid demigods are also termed archons.
This implies the term archon is not a term describing a creature kind, as the angels designed by God to do ra, are different in kind to these humanoid creature demigods, you also term archons. SO the term archons (arche) meaning "beginning" just refers to a time long time ago when certain events took place. The term is a broad term, as you say, slang for bad doings of certain creature kinds, in the first beginnings of time (arche).
Am I getting your ideas better?
But this is NOT what Enoch is saying? Enoch is NOT describing these angelic functions at all, so their origins is not detailed. These 200 angels all decide to sin, and defile women. The offspring of the women, become Nephilim, and these demigods become evil among the other humans, devouring them.
From Enoch's account I read:
Some angels (we assume were holy and non sinning) decide to become unholy and sinning by lustfully deciding to defile human women. The children of these women become different to normal human children, they are giants, more depraved, and devour mankind with more sin.
You go on to add these human giants are genetic pool for the Amorites, so God telling Israel to murder them, is really removing a sinful genetic line of humanoid demigods. And obeying GOD is never called a sin. So Dave, over to you, you define SIN. If sin means choice, to obey God or not obey God, than it's OK to do bad things as long as you are obeying GOD. I was taught from torah sin is also the transgression of the royal law? So please define your terms "sin"?
I am a details person, and you need to clearly elaborate where you get the idea that GOD created different functional angels, and that these 200 angels are intentionally allowed by GOD to sin, looking over human woman to defile them further, as God intended. You have a completely different definition to "sin" than me. And Enoch does NOT say what you're intending.
Also "beget us children" How do these angels (intentionally designed by GOD to do bad things) have the ability to begat children? Please explain using Enoch or Gnostic writings?
And "The bad-guy angelic beings (archon) were made differently than the angels that serve and praise" How do these angels (intentionally designed by GOD to do bad things) have the ability to functionally be allowed to be BAD? Please explain using Enoch or Gnostic writings?
Being "allowed to be bad" is no longer Robert's idea of sin, so again explain the term "sin" using Enoch or Gnostic writings.
On a fundamental sense "sin is defined as transgression of the royal torah"
These holy non-sinning angels must have decided to commit fornication with human woman, and the royal torah says "no adultery", a broad term, further detailed in the judgments as
Ex 21:1 ¶ Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
That means no creature is allowed to defile a woman producing living. No rape, no GMO, no amalgamation, no fornication, no adultery, no mischief of any kind.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (KJV)
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin-offering transgresseth also the law: for sin-offering is the transgression of the law. (Ancient Hebrew)
Sin-offerings require a Saviour to confess your sinning unto to.
Angels do not have access to a Saviour for confessing sin-offering, so their sinning is dealt with differently to human creature kinds. But we are told by Enoch some angels decided to sin, and have to meet a great penalty for their sin.
You are avoiding my discussions and change topic..
D" God told Israel to commit a complete genocide of the Amorite
R I am written about this before, the law says "no wounding" meaning you are not allowed to removed the ability of a being from choosing salvation. But if that being no longer wants to choose GOD, and staying alive helps others to be wounded, than it's OK for their probation of living to end. It's called God's strange act. Otherwise God is wounding others if that being is allow to remain alive and sinning even more.
Hmm? so why is Satan allowed to remain alive and He causes humans to sin even more? Some things are no easily explained Dave. But your changing topic.
What did Enoch have in mind when he wrote, the angels decided to sin?
I read the Enoch account, some holy non-sinning angels, decided to sin and defile these holy and non-sinning human woman, making them pregnant using a process not explained. So together both the angels and the woman defiled become sinners do so further sins. Enoch further writes the sinning angels are bound in chains as a punishment, sure sounds like the Bible term for sin, as human readers understand sin. The transgression of law. And if you transgress God's law, you are missing out on having God's powers in your life.
Shalom Shabat
|
|
