Greetings Dave
This post has taken me over 8 hours to compile, nearly 3 days of writing and thinking.
I spend this time with you, because you are worthy, and love requires such sacrifice.
Enjoy the reading my friend, slowly, take your time
D I asked you before – is this your satan + satan + satan
Your satan view – is too small – does not explain everything – therefore is not the complete theology
R Ps 131:1 LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
Scripture says to keep things simple. Nor do I care for deeper details. All I care about is some angels sinned. and the first angel that sinned is a "father of sinning", helps sinners to keep on sinning, because these fallen angels rule over our minds.
But you refuse to acknowledge that angels sinned and hence left their first estate (Jude, Ezekiel)
Now I have two torah teachings that say the same thing: some angels sinned.
D You say – this first angel – chose to do it by free will
R yes. How else do you define "sin" "left their first estate" ?
You say GOD intentionally create some angels to lose their first estate, and even intentionally created some angels to do RA, and yet this is not SIN, because they somehow "obey" GOD, since they do what they are programmed to do, ie kill and murder people.
"Your idea of obey" is implied from the context, not a single Hebrew word there suggesting 'obey' anyway in the tanak.
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, thou (Satan) movedst me (LORD) against him (JOB), to destroy him (JOB) without cause.
I do not see 'obey' in this sentence, only GOD blaming Satan for allowing Satan permission to wound Job.
What I see here is the HEDGE of salvation is raised up, the RA goes away. If the HEDGE of salvation wears away, the RA floods in automatically, because Satan opposes salvation and therefore opposes GOD.
Why does Satan oppose salvation? Salvation is a divine person. Because these two princes are at war with each other.
Been at war with each other for a long time, started in heaven. Michael , the Son of GOD, and His angels, fought with Satan and his angels, until all the consciences of RA were seared, and probation for these angels closed.
They left their beginnings, Jude says. Not created that way.
How do you recognize free will in sentences in the tanak? "chata" is the best word to define "free will"
But you ignore the meaning of this word. Only applies to human creatures.
It says GOD created creation "very good"
Ge 1:31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was "very good". Two Hebrew words here.
But funny you imply creating RA creatures is also "very good". I doubt this. Function is opposite to Dysfunction.
There is absolutely nothing very functional about dysfunctional creatures. What an oxymoron you suggest.
You also imply that raping people helps them love each other more deeply.
That bashing your wife helps her love you more deeply.
That lying to each other helps the truth come out better.
Boy what a silly idea?
That making intentionally corrupt DNA also helps the functional DNA work better.
That creating cosmic rays, gamma radiation also helps the body deal with corruption of the DNA.
Would GOD create all these dysfunctional things intentionally for a perfect world for Adam and Eve? No ...
otherwise it suggests GOD cannot create things perfectly and therefore functionally.
So where did all this bad stuff come from? The Tanak has an answer. Sin
But you ignore this answer. You say only humans sin.
D You say this first angels – decided by himself – to change his own substance
R How difficult is it to change your own substance?
Have a look at the shadow experiment. When a creature first sins, many things happen.
God's light has to shrink, God's medium has to come forth like birth pains, the creature walks away from GOD, and bingo the umbra shadows of sin, are observable to both the sinner and GOD, and other unfallen creatures looking at you and your shadow.
Who did the engineering in all this affect? God does.
Who make the shadows of sin? You did
D decided by himself – to change his own substance
R Since all things are relational Dave, you cannot ever change anything on your own, not possible.
So your statement is impossible to do, and impossible to achieve. There is no Hebrew word for SELF in a perfect world.
The concept is (as Einstein says invented by man to describe cirucmstances where people live with less of God's light living through them) totally an imaginary concept, yet real in our world of sin.
Just as darkness is also an imaginary concept, yet real in our world of sin.
Just as cold is an imaginary concept, yet real in our world of sin.
And evil is an imaginary concept, yet real in our world of sin.
Remove the sin problem, and nothing bad would exist ever.
In all this dicussion, the Hebrew word "missing" really describes what is going on. Angels left their first beginnings because they were found missing GOD in their lives.
Now you ignore this because the statement is only found once.
Yet the definition of "chata" too is only found once.
The meaning of "faith" is only found once.
Boy you could really say GOD only defines His terms only once, so every Hebrew word is important for obedience.
D You say God cannot do things – you place limits on God – restrictions
R God cannot lie, the tanak says. That means GOD cannot sin.
Funny. You call this a restriction.
Also the tanak says GOD is love. That means GOD cannot hate.
Funny, you call this a restriction.
Also GOD is light. That means GOD cannot switch the light off.
But you call this a restriction on GOD.
So where does darkness come from? Not from GOD, even though God has to work hard for the darkness to appear. The darkness comes from sin.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
The sentence does not say "sin" but boy it suggests everything else. These angels left their beginning, and now these angels are chained in darkness awaiting the great judgement.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Notice the parallel.
Angels who sin, will experience the same fate as humans who sin.
D You deny God’s Majestic Authority – and empower a single angel to a position of godhood
R What does "God’s Majestic Authority " mean? It is nice for "sin" to enter the first time? Hardly
D empower a single angel to a position of godhood
R well the tanak suggests that
he shall slay <harag> the dragon <tanniyn> that is in the sea <yam>.
Why does GOD slay the Dragon in the Sea?
Ps 44:19 Though thou hast sore broken <dakah> us in the place <maqowm> of dragons <tanniyn>, and covered <kacah> us with the shadow of death <tsalmaveth>.
D The beast was pushed into the choshek in Gen 1:2
R Pushed ? NO
Mt 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Why do some creatures experience darkness? Because it's relational. They refuse to come into the light.
D I say none of this –
I say God is the only creator
God created everything for By Him – through Him – for Him
If there is ra – I say it is because it is God’s Will -
R Yes God is the only creator
Yes God created everything for By Him – through Him – for Him
D If there is ra – I say it is because it is God’s Will -
R NO
It was not for God's glory to allow Satan the father of ra, to kill Job's children.
Question: Does a corruption of DNA require a second Creator?
Question: Does a corruption of perfect character require a second Creator?
Question: Does a corruption of perfect natural laws require a second Creator?
The answer to all these questions is no,
when GOD is missing, the RA comes as a consequence.
This is called in Hebrew "missing".
Only translators term it "sin", but is it really something more broader than that.
And "oppose" is another Hebrew word for relational relationships.
Can you be friendly in a opposing relationship? yes
But this Hebrew word is there for a reason, relationships also oppose each other.
During a tennis match the relationships oppose each other.
But salvation is not a tennis match. Salvation is a Divine Person.
So a meeting between a Divine Person and an Opposer over humans is quite different.
Why is an Opposer there? To oppose the Salvation's right to take another human from the Opposer's kingdom.
But you do not acknowledge the two princes here fight over humans.
D You believe it is a sin to obey God
R Sin is defined as trangression of Law.
You are twisting word meanings.
God cannot create RA creatures intentionally. This violates the definition of sin and suggests GOD is above his own character and his own laws.
Yet you agree GOD is above His own laws. Wow.
I cannot accept this. Your idea of GOD is not logical, safe or secure. God cannot violate being a GOD of LOVE.
D If yester ra was not available with Adam – how could Adam choose it?
R everything is relational. So only the choice was there, the DNA with ability to cope with corruption should it be required to cope, was there also??
Have you heard of cause and effect,
Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. (KJV)
So if you sow missing, you reap RA that is a consequence of missing GOD. If the DNA does not experience the powers of GOD, the DNA begins to fall apart, wear down, fall into entropy.
D You argue in circles – and that’s why we have not moved on to deeper subjects
You are stuck on Ezk 28 like a circus ride and cannot get off
Your argument always come around to the same talking points from your Great Controversy
R SIN is a Great Controversy NOT as you imply a Great Contest
You are stuck on ignoring the Hebrew words of the tanak, and look for other asnwers elsewhere.
D In order to complete their mission – mitzvah – they could not do it in paradise – Eve understood this
R Where in the mitzvah does it say thou shalt do RA?
D In order for God’s Will to unfold – God’s Plan – she knew what was required to be of service to God
R Again I ask , Where in the mitzvah does it say thou shalt do RA?
D She gave her life to serve God
Adam gave his life to remain with Eve
They gave their lives so God’s plan of redemption could unfold
R That is ridiculous, so GOD wanted to send His SON to die intentionally? Is that your big idea?
OK you never did asnwer why Jesus died on the Cross. The reason I found you on the WWW in the first place.
At least I give you credit for trying to answer this question>
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1326.htm
D NO – I am not a puppet – someone else does not make my decisions for me
R true, but you have not considered this ponder of confusion.
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were ruled sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be ruled righteous.
Life is about the ruler ruling your soul. Again it's relational.
D
1- the archon do not rule the soul – they tempt the body
2- at birth – (mind/Body) is immature
God remains in communion with the newborn –
until driven away by yester ra becoming fully developed
R I will develop your themes on this more
1- the archon do not rule the soul , oh yes they do.
2- at birth – (mind/Body) is immature. Hmm? the Nazarite vow is for?
D The creature made by the left hand was arrogant (selfish) and could not stand in the Light of God
R WHY couldn't GOD make all angels perfect?
R Scripture says the angels were created perfect, yet you say otherwise
D WRONG ROBERT – this is your argument
R funny the tanak says this:
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
D I say angels were created to praise – that is what they do
I say archon were made for a different function – that is what they do
R So relational means TOV relationships and RA relationships of LOVE? I don't think so
Everything is relational. God would not create angels with programmed dysfunctions (RA).
You also assume dogs do not love. Cats do not love. Birds sing because they are dumb programs.
I don't buy these ideas.
Everything as a creature loves to love, because that is what free will is, the ability to respond to love. BUT only man has the ability to respond to salvation. One day you will be able to freely talk to your dog, like Alex the parrot did.
D Here is the question – is God absolute?
R What does absolute mean?
God cannot sin. Is this absolute about GOD?
Yet you GOD creating creatures that do RA, which is not sin. Boy that is an oxymoron.
D But – through it all – Job did not lose faith that it is God’s Will
R yes, God say a deeper love in Job.
D Did anyone understand what was happening on the ground during the ministry and crucifixion of Jesus Christ – NO – No one had clue – it all just looked like ra
until the Resurrection – and it was the biggest tov for mankind
R OK answer why did Jesus have to die? If everything is designed by GOD for God's will, than it is also logical to you that GOD designed His Son to die .... but why? And why so much RA to creatures who have never seen RA before?
And if GOD creates angels to do RA, but this is not sin, than how is it man can do RA correctly but this is sin. Does Jesus really die, or is this a fake designed element of GOD showing RA to unfallen creatures?
D How could angels that are perfect – become imperfect? – it is an oxymoron
R Why is this an oxymoron?
Does not love has risk? Is not love obedience as an emotion, but also disobedience as an emotion too?
God cannot create obedience, nor disobedience.
These are the result of relationship free will.
If a creature is perfect but becomes imperfect, this implies the creature sinned, and did disobedience, so their love response is missing.
D – How could angels that are perfect – become imperfect?
R Free will choice. They chose to.
D 1- Then who are the Trinity of evil – satan + satan + satan
R I don't need to know. You make things complex. It's interesting you have a trinity of evil.
D 2- Why is God sometime His own satan
R It says GOD was an opposer to Baalim. Why? Because Baalim was supporting Satan the opposer of GOD.
If Satan was indeed a friendly angel doing bad deeds, than why is GOD an opposer to Baalim?
You cannot offer a proper answer to this , but I can.
God loves the humans, but hates their sin. What is sin? A creature who supports the father of lies, rather than the Father of Living.
You don't have rulers ruling over our soul.
Ge 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
How does SIN rule over you? There must be a ruler empowering you.
John 14:30
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me.
The NT tanak say rulers rule over us, even Satan the prince ruler of earth.
John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
The reason why Jesus came, to cast out the ruler of darkness.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
The reason why Jesus came, to cast out the father of sin.
1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth <poieo> sin <hamartia> is <esti> of <ek> the devil <diabolos>; for <hoti> the devil <diabolos> sinneth <hamartano> from <apo> the beginning <arche>
WOW, this is a deal breaker. This verse add to all my others. It says the Dragon sinned from the beginning, just as humans also sin. The Greek words clearly match the correct Hebrew words.
hamartano = chata
I have three verses that suggest angels sin (Ezekiel 28, Jude 2 and now 1John 3:8)
Ezekiel 28:16
In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
This verse adds to the others, that clearly this cherub sinned (chata).
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
The RA angel deceives humans.
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Notice the battle ground, and both war generals clearly defined here.
2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
The RA ruler even shows powers, miracles and wonders.
Isaiah 14:12
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
Why do these angels banished on earth, think they are so high above heaven? Movie stars, humans worship them.
Matthew 4:8-9
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”
Why does the Dragon ask Jesus to worship Him?
1 John 3:10
By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Children of the Dragon, implys a ruler ruling over them, does it not?
Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie
The NT tanak mentions churches of Satan even.
Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day
Why didn't angels stay, but left? Because the angels sinned.
1 John 5:18
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him
Why Job was hedged by GOD. Why God challenged the Opposer. Why the Opposer asked GOD to remove His hedge, so the RA doer could touch him.
1 Thessalonians 2:18
Because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us.
An opposer opposes Paul.
D Did anyone understand what was happening on the ground during the ministry and crucifixion of Jesus Christ – NO – No one had clue – it all just looked like ra
until the Resurrection – and it was the biggest tov for mankind
All through WWII – the holocaust looked ra
Now 70 years later – it was the biggest tov for the Jewish people
The trigger that stimulated the completion of prophesy
R I would not make parallels like this. Sure GOD makes good things come from bad things, but your implying by this that GOD actually enjoys engineering RA ?
You ask what is absolute about GOD? God cannot sin.
That means GOD cannot abandon his character of love.
But you even have GOD violating His own laws.
Even GOD creating RA angels on purpose.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
Run this poetry parallel into the contrasts
Light, peace. Darkness, RA.
What has light go to do with darkness? Nothing.
Einstein says darkness does not exist.
What has RA got to do with peace? Nothing.
Therefore RA does not exist either.
So how are these things that naturally do not exist, come into view in our fallen world? God engineers this.
He makes His light less bright, creates a medium, and hence if creatures choose to sin, the consequences are made observable as umbra shadows of death.
But you point out GOD actually wounds people. No
Satan is the only Being who wounds people to death.
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, ...Satan movedst God against Job, to destroy Job without cause.
If that is not an Opposer, opposing GOD statement, I don't know what is.
D 4- Why does 1/3rd of all the angels in heaven designed to be perfect – also fail at being perfect
R Because they chose to sin.
D Can’t God make anything right –
Y Yes but love includes free will to chose NOT to love, this is called missing.
Why is this so hard to fathom?
Your questions 6 to 11 are distractions.
R Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, ... thou movedst me against Job, to destroy Job without cause.
So who killed Job's children here? God did.
D I say satan did through other men – God allowed satan to do his worst
R I am glad to here you write this
I would also agree with this idea.
D I say satan did through other men – God allowed satan to do his worst
R Yes, but iinitally you said Sebeans did the killing, now you admit Satan empowered the men to kill JOb's children, God allowed satan to do his natural character of RA.
SO if you agree now, this automatically makes the Opposer opposing GOD.
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, ... Satan movedst God against Job, to destroy Job without cause.
D Sorry – Robert your satan does not tell God what to do
My God does not obey your satan
R What, a breath away you now disagree with me? You just said God allowed Satan to do his worst.
So Satan is telling GOD what to do, remove your hedge. God sees forward into the future that Job does not let go of his love, but Satan the accuser and opposer, cannot see this, so God challenges Satan first. And Satan fights back, remove your hedge. God only allows the request because God knows Job's is fully saved by love, and cannot sin anymore.
Job reached this condition:
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
John shows how the shadow experiments work, light/darkness
spiritualsprings.org/ss-759.htm
Have you studied the science of this study?
R But you do not admit there is anything opposing here, but there is.
D YES THERE IS – satan was opposing Job
Satan was testing Job
God test man – to see if we love him with all our heart, mind, and soul
R Show me Hebrew texts where Satan tests humans based on more love development?
D God test man – to see if we love him with all our heart, mind, and soul
R God already knows fully your heart, He does not need to test you, humans need to fully know, especially if they are hopping over from one master to another master ruling their soul.
But you do not have two masters ruling the soul, you don't like this idea.
Does the Dragon rule humans?
Why does GOD slay the Dragon in the sea? Sea means people.
Because the Dragon rules over the people so much GOD cannot save them anymore. Their conscience is seared.
D Again I ask – is it a sin to obey God
R God asked a prophet to burn human dung as firewood? Did the prophet obey GOD, thus disobey torah?
Which is primary? the Law or GOD who made Law? The Law is.
God was testing the prophet to see if he would fail with torah law, but the prophet did not fail.
Sin is defined as transgression of LAW. You are changing the definition Dave.
R Why does GOD slay the Dragon in the Sea?
D YES! This was a great discussion at AHR
God of the seas vrs god in the sea = ‘other gods’
The creator vrs created beings = archon
R Is that it? SO why does GOD slay the Dragon among the humans?
Because at times the Dragon get humans to worship the Dragon so much, God cannot get a foothold, so GOD wipes the humans out, who if left living would wound others, you have not decided as yet.
The commandment says "no wounding" , The translation says
Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
The Law does not restrict the God of Living, to end living, to anyone who might be wounding others.
This balance of TOV/RA is recorded by GOD, we are not to judge God about this.
D I have no idea what you are talking about – ruling over us
R included in this post is over a dozen verses for you to chew over.
D I do not get your idea that there is an evil satan always forcing you to sin
R Do you not often here a voice in your conscience saying, do this or that? Who is this voice?
D You cannot blame your sin on satan – you choose – archon only tempt
R OK, correct
But tempt means, to make/ influence one to sin.
Peer group pressure.
Relational monkey see, monkey do.
How easy is it for two talking sin, to do sin, if one sees another sinning too?
Sinning begins as words. Words come from voices in your conscience. Its a relationship.
So sometimes these voices come to us...
D YES! This is a metaphor about Pharoah
R No Dave, you love to throw poetry around don't you?
A poetry metaphor does not mean the simile it's pointing to does not exist.
Clearly Pharoah is a spiritual dragon doing RA on Israel.
BUT the poetry also makes another simile.
There is a real DRAGON behind Pharoah tempting Him to sin before GOD.
But you do not see this Great Contraversy.
D Notice the person who ARROGANTLY thinks he is the creator of anything
R Well isn't the DRAGON a "creator" of SIN?
He likes to think so, He likes to think he is the Most HIgh too.
Magically snakes appeared out of the rods. Magically GOD's snake ate up the RA snakes of Satan.
But you do not see behind the scenes of the physical world.
So GOD is more powerful than the creature who opposes GOD.
R you do not admit the Dragon as a Ruler over the Earth.
D you show me a post, where you claim you admit Dragon is a Ruler over the earth
But than you say:
R You have no concept of Satan ruling our soul with your so called random whispers ?
D NO – I am not a puppet – someone else does not make my decisions for me
So maybe there is no ruler of the earth? Though once we receive Jesus, Satan is to stop ruling us, and Jejsus rules us instead. The hopping over process stops, and sinning stops. One Master remains. Self dies. Satan flees, and only Jesus and you remains, full and complete.
That was a long post to write Dave.
Please consider the study reply carefully. Shalom