SDA Creed number 1 :
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)
Dave says: "You have argued at length that God and Christ must be two different individual persons
Rob asks: So I take it Dave you do not like the way our first fundamental belief reads? "There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. " ?
SDA Creed number 8:
Satan accused God of being untrustworthy and unfair. God gave us freedom to choose, and human history shows the result of rebellion—and the incredible power of God’s love to save us.
All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, God’s adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the global flood, as presented in the historical account of Genesis 1-11. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation. (Gen. 3; 6-8; Job 1:6-12; Isa. 14:12-14; Ezek. 28:12-18; Rom. 1:19-32; 3:4; 5:12-21; 8:19-22; 1 Cor. 4:9; Heb. 1:14; 1 Peter 5:8; 2 Peter 3:6; Rev. 12:4-9.)
Dave says: " You do with each and every post. Your satan is more powerful and can override God’s Will – and alter God’s Plan for creation
Rob asks" So you do not have "sinning angels" opposing GOD, only opposing man, and testing man, all following God's will for mankind? You do not believe is some great controversy ?
SDA Creed number 26 :
The unconscious nothingness of death separates us from the God of life, yet Jesus’ defeat of death means the saved can look forward to resurrection and living forever.
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Job 19:25-27; Ps. 146:3, 4; Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10; Dan. 12:2, 13; Isa. 25:8; John 5:28, 29; 11:11-14; Rom. 6:23; 6:16; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 20:1-10.)
Dave says : "You argue at length against spirit
Man is nothing more than an animal with memories
Rob asks" The details in this creed are missing, but it says "death is an unconscious state for all people"
Generally you would disagree with this idea?
So we are not allowed to be different? How can we be different if the Hebrew reads a certain way?
I don't understand this? But you are unfair in a way, you add Gnostic writings to the Hebrew.
Dave writes: "You are not here to study
You are here to defend satan and his rightful authority in the Great Controversy
You defend this position with each post
Rob replies, I did do lots of study with you. Learnt alot. Seems like Jews do not an opposer of GOD, and mankind is born with yester ra and yester tov, from birth, so we are tested to do tov and disdain ra, This is our journey. Sinning angels do the dirty job of only testing us.
Here is a publication by a friend of mine, who is a Messanic Jew:
Notice his belief from his webpage:
Satan: The Prince of the Power of the Air
"Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" Ephesians 2:2
It is believed by some that Satan and devils / demons are not spirit beings, but earthly adversaries and mental disorders respectively. Others believe that Satan is an allegory for unrighteousness and demons are unrighteous thoughts. It is obvious that there is confusion and disagreement among people as to who or what Satan and demons are. The purpose of this study is to show that Satan and devils / demons are literal spirit beings.
The opening text is instructive for several reasons.
1) The "prince" is identified as "the spirit". This refers to a particular spirit being.
2) The "prince" [Greek - "archonta" - a first (in rank or power)] is the primary ruler of the air (where evil spirits dwell).
3) "Power" (Greek - "exousia" - force). This word is a noun meaning a power or force in the sense of a military force. This force is ruled over by a single prince who is supreme. "Exousia" can also be translated "jurisdiction". The prince rules over the jurisdiction of the air as Herod rules over the jurisdiction of Galilee (Luke 3:1; 23:7).
We learn the identity of this prince and who he rules over in Mt.12:22-29.
"Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spoke and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow does not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Yeshua knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of Elohim, then the kingdom of Elohim is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."
The Pharisees believed in devils (supernatural spirits) and that they had a prince over them, "Beelzebub", who Yeshua implied was Satan (vs.26).
Yeshua's response teaches us several things.
1) Satan exists.
2) Satan has a kingdom that he rules over.
3) Satan's kingdom is strong and not divided against itself.
4) Yeshua has power over Satan and his devils.
5) Satan will eventually be bound and his house spoiled.
In verse 29, the strong man is Satan. The world is his house. Satan's "goods" are people. Yeshua speaks of himself as a thief. Just as a thief ties up the strong man (owner of the house) and carries off his possessions, Yeshua bound Satan through the power of the Holy Spirit and spoiled his goods (freed his people). By freeing the demon possessed people, Yeshua was spoiling Satan's goods.
Yeshua referred to Satan as a being who rules over a kingdom of beings known as devils (Greek - "daimonion" - from which we get our English word "demon"). These demons are the forces or power of the air mentioned in Eph.2:2.
Other references to the "prince of the devils" are Mt.9:34; Mk.3:22; and Luke 11:15 where he is identified as the "chief of the devils". This can be understood to mean Satan is the leader of the beings known as demons or that he is the #1 demon in rank.
Satan himself is called "the devil" (Mt.4:1; Mk.1:13; Rev.12:9; 20:2). The word used in those references, however, is "diabolos" meaning a false accuser or slanderer. It is also said of Satan that he has "angels" for whom an everlasting fire is prepared. Mt.25:41 reads:
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
These are obviously not good angels, but evil angels or evil spirits. They are ruled over by Satan their prince. Satan and his angels comprise the kingdom of darkness, kingdom of the air, or kingdom of Satan. This kingdom, of course, is in direct opposition to the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of Elohim.
The Works of the Devil
"He that committs sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of [Yahweh] was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8
One of Yeshua's works will be to destroy the works of the devil (Satan). Here is a list of some of those works of the devil.
⦁ Tempts to sin (1 Chr.21:1 - "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."). Based on 2 Sam.24:1, some believe Yahweh is the adversary that moved David to number Israel and sin. James 1:13 says, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of [Yahweh]: for [Yahweh] cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man:" Therefore, Yahweh did not and could not tempt (move) David to sin. The correct understanding is that Yahweh allowed Satan to move David just as He allowed Satan to afflict Job. More on that later.
(Mk.1:13 - ""And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him."). Some have appealed to James 1:14 to show that temptation originates in one's own mind or heart and that a literal spirit being (Satan) does not tempt people. James 1:14 simply teaches that lust causes an individual to be tempted. It does not say Satan does not tempt as well. Nor does it say others cannot tempt us. If I offer swine's flesh to someone who keeps Yahweh's dietary laws, then I am tempting that person to sin. His own lust will come into play as well causing him to act on that external temptation. Satan, too, can tempt us externally as seen throughout Messiah's temptation in the wilderness. More on that later.
⦁ Takes away the Word sown in people's hearts (Mk.4:15 - "And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts."). Satan achieves this by moving others to cause us to doubt what we heard (the seed). (See Acts 13:6-12).
⦁ Moves men to savour the things of men rather than the things of Yahweh (Mk.8:33 - "But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of Elohim, but the things that be of men."). Satan moved Peter to reject Yeshua's prophecy of his destiny. It was Yahweh's will that Yeshua suffer in such a way, but Satan moved Peter to fight against Yahweh's will.
⦁ Binds people with afflictions (Luke 13:16 - "And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?"). Some believe that the "Satan" in verse 16 is the ruler of the synagogue, mentioned in verse 14, who bound her by not allowing her to be healed on the Sabbath. However, this woman was bound for 18 years. She certainly could have been freed on any other day, other than the Sabbath, in all that time. The fact is, Satan bound her 18 years prior to Yeshua releasing her.
⦁ Possesses people (Luke 22:3 - "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."). In this case it was Satan who possessed Judas. If the devil is one's own heart/mind, how can one's own heart/mind put thoughts of betrayal in one's own heart/mind? It is obvious that an external entity put such thoughts in Judas' heart. Psa.110:5 reads: "Yahweh at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath." Yeshua derives his power and example from Yahweh. That is what the phrase, "stand at his right hand" means. In contrast, Psa. 109:6 reads: "Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand." The wicked derive their power and example from Satan. Psa.109:8 was quoted in Acts 1:20 concerning Judas. Therefore, verses 6 & 7 are especially applicable to Judas. Satan "entered" Judas in order to move him to betray Yeshua (See also Jn.13:27).
⦁ Sows tares among the wheat (Mt.13:39 - "The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."). The tares did not sow themselves, nor did any particular earthly adversary sow them. Satan sowed them in his attempt to destroy Yeshua's work of saving the world.
⦁ Casts believers into prison (Rev.2:10 - "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."). Satan will manipulate the circumstances to move earthly adversaries against believers to bring this about.
⦁ Deceives the world (Rev.20:3,8 - "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. . .And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."). Satan and his angels accomplish this in many ways, one of which is by appearing as an angel of light / truth (2 Cor.11:14-15). He is obviously not going to appear in some hideous form and say to us, "The Sabbath is abolished." He will, however, move his children (1 Jn.3:10) to teach such things in the pulpit or through books, magazines, television, Internet, etc.
⦁ Oppresses people (Acts 10:38 - "How Elohim anointed Yeshua of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for Elohim was with him."). The word "oppressed" here is Strong's #2616 meaning, "to exercise dominion against." While it is true that men oppress other men, it is equally true that Satan can directly oppress men, use his angels to oppress men, or even move men to oppress each other. He has that power because he is the "prince of the devils."
⦁ Perverts the ways of Yahweh (Acts 13:10 - "And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" KJV). Causing people to doubt what they hear from Scripture is Satan's primary way to pervert those right ways. Teaching false doctrine, leading people away from Yeshua, Judaizing, etc., are all ways to pervert the right ways of Yahweh. Yes, earthly men do all these things to other men, but many times it is the unseen hand of Satan and his "children" (his evil angels / demons / devils) that is the source of such perversion.
⦁ Takes people captive (2 Tim.2:26 - "And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."). There are many ways to trap or snare people, especially if those people are not protected by the hand of Yahweh. The mind / will that is fully committed to serving Yahweh will not be ensnared or taken captive, but those who are not, including believers who are not walking uprightly, can be ensnared (1 Tim.3:7).
⦁ Hinders believers in their work (1 Th.2:18 - "Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us."). Satan may not have hindered Paul directly, but may have used the Jews to accomplish his objective of preventing the good news from spreading (vss.15-16).
⦁ Murders and lies (Jn.8:44 - "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."). Yeshua cannot be speaking of any one particular man as being their "father". He is specifically referring to a being that existed for millennia. We are not told what "beginning" this refers to. At some point in time, Satan became a murderer when he turned away from the truth and killed his first victim.
⦁ Accuses the brethren (Rev.12:10 - "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."). Satan has been accusing the brethren before Yahweh for hundreds of years; from the Apostles right down to us today. That will come to an end once Satan is bound for the millennium.
Yeshua began to destroy these works through signs and miracles that he did. Healing the sick, opening the eyes of the blind, making the lame to walk, casting out demons, etc., were all ways of causing Satan's work (where applicable) to be destroyed. Yeshua's greatest work to that end was to overcome sin and death through his own sinless life and resurrection thus paving the way for each individual believer in him to overcome Satan's work as well (Heb.2:14; Rev.12:9-11)
The Serpent in the Garden
In Genesis 3, we are told of "the serpent" that "beguiled" Eve in the Garden of Eden. This garden was a literal botanical wonderland and is referred to in Gen.13:10 & Is.51:3 as the "Garden of Yahweh". Gen.3:8 says "Yahweh Elohim" planted the garden. Therefore, it can be called the "Garden of Elohim" as well and is, in fact, called that in Ezek.28:13 which will be discussed later.
Adam was placed in the garden and eventually Eve was its second human inhabitant. The serpent was also present in the garden. His first recorded act was to plant seeds of doubt in Eve's mind; "Yea, has Elohim said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" His second act was to lie to Eve by teaching her the exact opposite of what her Creator taught her. Yahweh said, "Of every tree of the garden thou may freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:16,17) and the serpent said, "You shall not surely die". The consequences of Eve's disobedience led to Adam's fall and the entrance of sin and death into the world (Rom.5:12).
Rev.12:9 & 20:2 call the devil / Satan "that old serpent". He has that title because he is somehow associated with the oldest serpent known to man, the serpent in the garden. Whether he actually was that serpent or influenced the serpent to lie and deceive is not clear from the available texts.
It is because of the devils actions in the garden that Yeshua told the Jews the following:
"You do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even Elohim. Yeshua said unto them, If Elohim were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from Elohim; neither came I of myself, but He sent me. Why do you not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:41-44.
Who is the "father" of those that do not believe? Who was a murderer from the beginning? Who has no truth in him? Who is the father of lies? Can the answer to these questions be one's own heart or mind or any earthly adversary? Can a mind or heart (one's thoughts) be a father, a murderer, or a liar? People may act on their thoughts and become liars and murderers, but the thoughts themselves cannot commit these acts. A literal spirit being (Satan) can not only commit such acts, but he can tempt people to do so as well.
The first recorded lie in Scripture comes from the serpent (the devil / Satan). Thus it is said that he is the "father of lies". As a result of that lie's direct impact upon the fall of man, death came upon all men. Thus it is said that he is a "murderer from the beginning" (the beginning of man's recorded history).
1 John 3:8 teaches similarly:
"He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of Elohim was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
The "beginning" refers to the first sin mentioned in Scripture (the serpent's lie). This verse is parallel to "he was a murderer from the beginning". The devil / Satan is the murderer and father of lies. He sinned before man (Adam and Eve) sinned. His sin was lying to Eve by telling her she would not die by disobeying her Creator. Among the "works of the devil", mentioned in this verse, is to deceive mankind into disobeying the Creator. Those that obey the devil are said to be "children of the devil" (1 Jn.3:10). He becomes their father.
Some try to teach that "your father the devil" and "the father of the lie" refers to Adam because he committed the first sin and spread sin and death to others. They view Adam as the first satan. This is faulty reasoning for several reasons: 1) Adam's sin was not lying, but disobedience in eating the forbidden fruit 2) Satan is said to be "that old serpent". It was Satan that tempted Eve, not Adam.
While it is true that it was Adam's sin that brought sin and death upon the human race, it was Satan's lie that caused the sin. Satan could not bring sin and death into the world because he is not flesh and blood, but he was certainly the first to sin against Yahweh. A being does not need to be flesh and blood to sin. By telling Eve she would not die, the serpent / Satan was not only lying to her, but he was also accusing Yahweh of not speaking the truth. He brought Yahweh's integrity into question and misrepresented Him to Eve. His was an act of outright rebellion against his Creator.
Digressing a bit: Some may doubt that Satan has a Creator or that he is a created, supernatural being. Instead, they believe the term "satan" (Hebrew - "sawtawn"; Greek - "satanas") simply means "adversary" and refers to men or Yahweh. They view Yahweh as the only "adversary" that is a spirit.
However, in Numbers 22:22,32, the Angel of Yahweh (who is not Yahweh, but a separate spirit being) was an "adversary / sawtawn" to Balaam. If a good spirit being can be an adversary / satan, then surely an evil spirit being can be one as well.
When a man acts as an adversary against Yahweh's people, he is said to be a "child of the devil" (1 Jn.3:10; Acts 13:10). Why? Because he does the work of his father the devil. Sometimes Satan is the force behind a man's evil actions as was the case with Judas (Luke 22:3). Sometimes Satan's angels are that force as will be the case in Rev.16:14. However, sometimes a man will commit evil out of the lust of his own heart (James 1:14). Although neither Satan, nor his angels were behind the act, because the act was adversarial in nature, the term "satan" is used to describe the action.
As for Satan being a created supernatural being, we read the following in Ezek.28:12-16:
"Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith Adonai Yahweh; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of Elohim; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of Elohim; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of Elohim: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."
Yes, it is true that the context is a prophecy about the literal king of Tyrus, but it goes deeper than that into a prophecy against the real power behind the king, Satan. There are two characteristics of the king that cannot be attributed to any earthly man.
1) He is called, "the anointed cherub" (vs.14). "Cherub" is only used in Scripture of created celestial beings.
2) He was in the Garden of Eden.
I have yet to see a reasonable explanation for these two points. When one reads writings from those opposed to Satan as a literal spirit being, they refute the passage as referring to the king of Tyrus, but they fail to address these points.
Returning to Genesis 3: Yahweh cursed the serpent by transforming it into a legless creature (vs.14). He also gave the following prophecy in verse 15:
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."
It was prophesied by Paul that Gen.3:15 would be fulfilled in his future by the Elohim of peace bruising Satan under the saints feet.
"And the Elohim of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. . ." Romans 16:20
Of course, Messiah Yeshua, being the seed of the woman, will also bruise Satan under his feet at a future time. He will accomplish this through his headship as "king of the saints" and through his own power. I doubt the phrases "under the saints feet" and "bruise thy head" (Gen.3:15) are to be understood literally. Messiah and the saints will "bruise" Satan through destroying his power and authority over the people of this world and through his binding during the millennium and his eventual casting into the Lake of Fire.
What is important to note here is that the Apostle Paul understood that Gen.3:15 was a prophecy referring to Satan. It was not directed at the serpent per se, but to the entity behind or in the serpent, Satan himself.
Satan in the Wilderness
In Matthew 4, we read about the devil's temptation of Yeshua in the wilderness. Some would have us believe that a literal spirit being did not tempt Yeshua, but that he was battling with his own mind. Let's look at the account a little closer.
"Then was Yeshua led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward hungry. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of Elohim, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of Yahweh." (Matthew 4:1-4).
Yeshua was specifically led into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil (Satan -Mk.1:13). After forty days of fasting, he was hungry. Satan then "came" to him (from another location) and tempted him to change stones to bread in order to eat. It was not against Yahweh's law to eat when hungry. Therefore, such an act could not be sin and such a request could not be a true temptation had it come from Yeshua's own heart / mind. However, since the request came from an external source (Satan), and since the request brought into question Yeshua's sonship ("If thou be the Son of Elohim"), had Yeshua made bread from stones he would have yielded to the temptation of having to prove he was the Son of Elohim.
"Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, And said unto him, If thou be the Son of Elohim, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Yeshua said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt Yahweh thy Elohim." (Matthew 4:5-7).
It is believed that James 1:14 somehow proves that all temptation is a product of one's own mind / lusts. Yet, Yeshua's reply in verse 7 shows that one can be tempted from external sources. Just as we can tempt Yahweh, Satan can tempt us.
Some have gone so far as to say the devil in verses 5-7 was the high priest Caiaphas. If that were true, then he would also be the devil in verses 8-10. How absurd it would then be for Caiaphas to try to get Yeshua to worship him by offering him kingdoms that he doesn't possess.
"Again, the devil took him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And said unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then said Yeshua unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship Yahweh thy Elohim, and Him only shalt thou serve." (Matthew 4:8-10).
It is also believed that, since no one can see "all the kingdoms of the world" from any one particular mountain, this must be taking place in Yeshua's imagination and that the devil offering him those kingdoms must be imagined as well. However, if the dragon of Rev.13:2 (Satan) can give power to the two beasts (vs.12-13), so much so that they can make fire come down from heaven, surely Satan can show Yeshua a vision of all the kingdoms of the world.
"Then the devil left him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him." (Matthew 4:11).
Satan left Yeshua just as the literal angels would leave him after ministering to him. And just as those angels "came" to him, Satan "came" to him (vs.3).
Satan and Job
"Now there was a day when the sons of Elohim came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also among them. And Yahweh said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Yahweh, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And Yahweh said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth Elohim, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered Yahweh, and said, Doth Job fear Elohim for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And Yahweh said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Yahweh. And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of Elohim is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee." (Job 1:6-19).
This is one of the clearest accounts of Satan. This cannot refer to any earthly adversary of Job, for no man has the power to do what this adversary did.
The phrase "sons of Elohim" (vs.2) was used in Job 38:7 to refer to angels. Gen.6:2,4 uses that phrase to refer to angels as well. That phrase occurs nowhere else in the Hebrew text. Therefore, to try and apply it to men is going beyond Scripture.
If the "sons of Elohim" are angels, then this seen takes place in heaven. If they are mere men and Satan a mere earthly adversary of Job, then how did that man have the power to move the Sabeans to kill Job's servants, bring fire down from heaven to kill man and beast, move the Chaldeans to kill Job's servants and steal his goods, and cause a great wind to destroy Job's house and kill his sons and daughters; all this one right after the other with no time to move from location to location?
"Again there was a day when the sons of Elohim came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan came also among them to present himself before Yahweh. And Yahweh said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered Yahweh, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And Yahweh said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth Elohim, and escheweth evil? and still he holds fast his integrity, although thou moved me against him, to destroy him without cause. And Satan answered Yahweh, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man has will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And Yahweh said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. So went Satan forth from the presence of Yahweh, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown." (Job 2:1-7).
Note that it was not Yahweh who did the afflicting, but Satan himself. How can a mere earthly adversary afflict Job with boils? This obviously refers to a supernatural being that has power to afflict with boils. Our own Master Yeshua taught us that it was Satan who bound and afflicted a crippled woman for 18 years!
I only posted half of his material.
Dave writes " But I really try not to ban anyone – and I really try to answer every question honestly and to the best of my abilities
All I can do is witness – when should we tire of it? When should it become a burden?
I have posted what my friend John, the Messanic Jew believes on Satan, clearly not the same as you do Dave.
How come we all have differences of opinion?
Shalom