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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2020 5:30:51 GMT -5
D Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, R The word "Adam" here comes in verb and noun forms The verb means red, so the noun must mean "reddish-being".
D Man has no spirit – and we are not puppets R correct
D So what part of animal seeks spirituality? R mind/heart
D Why don’t all animals gather and sing hymms R animals do not have large cognitive mind/heart, only man does. Our frontal lobe is huge. We also are made in image of GOD's love, gender male and gender female, ie we have these two love words in Hebrew, that make us love more than mere other animals do.
D They are animals just like us – no spirit – just nephesh (the ability to think)
R Yes, but man is an animal with free will to choose GOD as a co-eternal partner. Other animals do not have free will to co-labour with GOD in this manner.
D Ruwach – means spirit – not HS R I could be convinced... after all why is the Hebrew sometimes added with qodosh ruwach, two nouns, and sometimes with ruwach, one noun ? And why do we not make the two nouns into a construct state? For example "special of spirit" is there are difference between ruwach and qodosh ruwach?
The Hebrew word ruwach is a special wind, and wind is a medium function. Is this function administrated by a co-eternal Being? Yes, the Shadday, allows the wind to function.
SO yes I could see your point that ruwach means "spirit", but it is a "spirit" or "medium" administrated as an agency by the Shadday, hence in layperson terms this is the same as saying HS.
D You think having a soul is foolish R no it is not foolish, nephesh is soul. Nothing wrong with the word soul. But you speak of the soul living after the body dies, however when the body dies, the soul also dies. Only the ruwach (HS agency) remains after your soul dies.
D The thing returning to God is our soul – now free from its body it is free spirit R NO absolutely not.
It says ruwach returns to GOD, not nephesh returns to GOD, you are like Jews mixing terms.
The Hebrew word nephesh does not equate with ruwach, they are separate words, with different meanings.
D But you say the nephesh is the HS – therefore it is the HS being judged R O boy. NO ...
nephesh does not equate with HS. The nephesh is judged when alive again.
D Man’s animal is mortal – not immortal D Man’s spirit is not mortal - immortal
R this phrase "man's spirit" is a modifer (your term) NOT a single Hebrew word, therefore man does not have such a thing you describe... no such thing on it's own... otherwise there would be a Hebrew word for this, but there is not.
D Who is making these choices – you have no spirit – you are just an animal R the conigitive frontal lobe, the heart/mind does.... you do not need this non-existence word you speak of to make intellectual decisions, using God's love. God only records how you use His power.
What's wrong with an animal? Pig valves fit OK into human hearts, don't they? Sure animals lack a frontal brain, they also lack a better capacity to love, and sing and speak freely like humans do.
D WHO is the you – all you have is an animal R do you need a special organ that makes us different, being uniquely us? I am no expert on this... do animals have pineal glands? do they have frontal brain lobes? do animals have complex vocal cords? Is there any DNA differences between man and animals?
D Animals do not make choices to follow the Lord R true, they don't. SO we are special than.
D Why don’t you preach to your cat R Cats do not respond to GOD dealings of love, only humans can.
D Who is the you – you are not an individual being
R Is anything ever a solitary being? no All living things are partnered to GOD, including animals and plants. What makes humans different, is only we can respond to GOD's love. Who is the you? Don't know. Maybe the DNA itself records everything you do and say in a chemcial signature way? I don't know. Maybe GOD records everything you do. Why do you have to know all the details?
D Althoght we all suffer mortal death – we all do not have to suffer spiritual death R yes, a living spiritual death is worse than mortal death, 'cause the wicked could say he had some fun, albeit wicked, the living spiritual death who also dies, had a boring life pretending to love God.
D Is this what you get from Luke 15? – the whole point is that the son who stayed home was a sinner R thought the one who stayed home was straight ? The one who left home was the sinner.
R no - This is not sourced from Moses hebrew, but your Gnostic greek. D And yet it has been Jewish theology for 3500 years - strange R maybe Jewish, but NOT in Moses Hebrew, the 5 scrolls of Moses do you speak of your ideas. Jewish theology has to include verses and ideas outside of Moses teachings. Correct?
D We worship the Spirt God – in spirit – (HS in nowhere near this sentence) R Doesn't the word "ruwach" exist here? D YES! And ruwach means spirit – that is all – requires a modifier to assign it ownership Man’s-ruwach – God’s ruwach – the only nomenclature difference is that the Spirit of God = Holy = HS
R Hmmmm? You raise an interesting theory...
Hypothesis: Does "ruwach" mean common wind, and only with modifiers refer to "man's spirit" or "God's spirit" ?
How would you test this theory Dave?
Qodoesh ruwach, must mean HS... correct ?
adam ruwach, must means Man's spirit.... correct?
ruwach, must mean "wind or spirit" some medium function, that is NOT controlled by any power of GOD.
Is this how you see this study?
second post -----------
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
D Elijah lived once before – incarnate - then walked with God Elijah will live again as a man on earth- reincarnate
D Some have told me this is impossible and is not valid scripture D Please explain
R Mt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
It seems from context, Jesus said John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elias.
You take it literally, it's a saying, the John came as a messenger like Elias did, in character similiar to this OT messenger.
Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
No reincarnation, just a NT messenger similar to an OT messenger.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 9, 2020 8:53:11 GMT -5
D Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, R The word "Adam" here comes in verb and noun forms The verb means red, so the noun must mean "reddish-being". Amazing – I see how this proves beyond a shadow of doubt man is not in the image of God God is spirit and his 3D image But man is not like God – he is just an animal Therefore your God must just be an animalPlease read my latest post at ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/444/trinity?page=1&scrollTo=4170D Man has no spirit – and we are not puppets R correct You love to misrepresent my words – is it helpfulD So what part of animal seeks spirituality? R mind/heart Why two biological organs Why not heart eyes and fingers? – it is all biologyD They are animals just like us – no spirit – just nephesh (the ability to think) R Yes, but man is an animal with free will to choose GOD as a co-eternal partner. Other animals do not have free will to co-labour with GOD in this manner. Hey – you finally used the term Free Will correctlyAnimal have no Free Will Man does – Why the difference – if we are both just DNA – what the difference – what make us difference D Ruwach – means spirit – not HS R I could be convinced... after all why is the Hebrew sometimes added with qodosh ruwach, two nouns, and sometimes with ruwach, one noun ? And why do we not make the two nouns into a construct state? For example "special of spirit" is there are difference between ruwach and qodosh ruwach? The Hebrew word ruwach is a special wind, and wind is a medium function. Is this function administrated by a co-eternal Being? Yes, the Shadday, allows the wind to function. SO yes I could see your point that ruwach means "spirit", but it is a "spirit" or "medium" administrated as an agency by the Shadday, hence in layperson terms this is the same as saying HS. OK let me follow your logic hereMan’s spirit is not the HS – but man’s spirit is driven by the HS – so you can call man’s spirit the HS If you are full of the HS already – why do we asks for it to come into us What does it mean to be Born Again – Born of Spirit? If man always has the HS within – why the need to pray for it? D The thing returning to God is our soul – now free from its body it is free spirit R NO absolutely not. It says ruwach returns to GOD, not nephesh returns to GOD, you are like Jews mixing terms. YES! Spirit ‘ruwach’ returns to GODYou insist spirt can only mean HS – whenever you see the word you automatically add the modifier Holy – whether it is written or not So if the ruwach is only the HS – when you die the HS returns to God – and there is no you as in individual – you were /are just a HS filled animalyou are like Jews mixing terms.Maybe I – like the Jew - am allowing scripture to speak to me And I have stopped be hung up on single words long agoD Who is making these choices – you have no spirit – you are just an animal R the conigitive frontal lobe, the heart/mind does.... you do not need this non-existence word you speak of to make intellectual decisions, using God's love. God only records how you use His power. Mind – brain – and intellectual decisions matter not – of zero consequenceWhat's wrong with an animal? And why does an animals nephesh go back to the dust – of zero consequenceD WHO is the you – all you have is an animal R do you need a special organ that makes us different, being uniquely us? I am no expert on this... do animals have pineal glands? do they have frontal brain lobes? do animals have complex vocal cords? Is there any DNA differences between man and animals? This is all biology – unless a man be Born again Nicodemus didn’t get it either – Jesus had to set him straight Not talking about Biology – talking about spiritR Is anything ever a solitary being? no All living things are partnered to GOD, including animals and plants. So your satan God is not a solidary (individual) Your satan is just an invisible flying animal - partnered to God – Driven by the HS
R no - This is not sourced from Moses hebrew, but your Gnostic greek. D And yet it has been Jewish theology for 3500 years - strange R maybe Jewish, but NOT in Moses Hebrew, the 5 scrolls of Moses do you speak of your ideas. Jewish theology has to include verses and ideas outside of Moses teachings. Correct? I see your problem here – because you deny the spirit You must also deny communion with God in the spiritI on the other hand believe God has reached down and spoke to a lot of men through the spirit How did the Jews know to write the Torah – God told them What words did they put in the Torah – what God told them Why did the Jew make their religion so convoluted – because it is what God told them YOU DENY ALL THIS COMMUNICATIONSo very Catholic The Jews walked and talked with God for 40 years in the wilderness God Tabernacled with the Jews twice One a year - the high priest would enter the Mercy Seat How many prophets of the ahl spoke directly with God ? 25 - 75 - 3687 - how many? But one of the biggest foundations to your theology is The Jews never understood - anything the Jew believe - a Christian must rejectYES! - this is the Roman edit If the Jews believes it - you must believe the opposite God is the only God - you have two gods and one of them is a family of 3 individual gods Jews believe in the spirit - you must deny the spirit - man has no spirit we are just animal Jews believe in reincarnation - you speak against it then turn around and preach it as a good thing for the New Heaven and Earth I am so unlike youGod walked and talked with the Jews - I want to know what they know You declare everything they say is in error God walked and talked with the disciples - I want to know what they know You demand man translates it yet again into Hebrew God spoke to a few for 47 days after His Resurrection - I want to know what they know You say it is Gnostic Junk - and your reasoning is that it denys satan as a god Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. It seems from context, Jesus said John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elias. But you argue Elijah has no spirit – Elijah is only an animal powered by the HS Now you say – it was just the spirit of Elijah Double speak No reincarnation, just a NT messenger similar to an OT messenger.And yet you preach that we will all be reincarnated for the New Heaven and Earth But there is no such thing as reincarnation Double speak
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2020 15:40:59 GMT -5
D So what part of animal seeks spirituality? R mind/heart D Why two biological organs D Why not heart eyes and fingers? – it is all biology R Ask the Bible that question yourself.
Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
D They are animals just like us – no spirit – just nephesh (the ability to think) R Yes, but man is an animal with free will to choose GOD as a co-eternal partner. Other animals do not have free will to co-labour with GOD in this manner. D Hey – you finally used the term Free Will correctly Animal have no Free Will Man does – Why the difference – if we are both just DNA – what the difference – what make us difference R I suppose there is additional DNA not there in other animals, man is special. I also suppose since the MEDIUM allows us to partner to GOD, humans can respond more to GOD, than other animals do. So in a nutshell, the relationship partnership makes the difference.
D If you are full of the HS already – why do we ask for it to come into us R The breath of living, is a relationship to GOD, that allows your nephesh to live, and do and respond to GOD if you choose to love Him back. The nephesh is what makes you, you. What makes you different from other animals is our nephesh is in a relational partnership to GOD that responds upwardly to GOD, while other animals also have nephesh, but their loving is limited.
The only text on this idea is this one:
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?(KJV)
Since man's nephesh responds to the relationship of GOD, GOD via the HS is able to commune with man daily, as well as empower man to remain living on probation. We are all living on probation because via Adam, we have experienced a corruption of our DNA, from Adam's first sin.
This communion process happens to all men regardless if you straight or crooked, just as long as you hear the still small voice, GOD will commune to you, via the agency of the HS, via your conscience.
When a crooked man reaches Jesus hand, the relationship becomes straight. Now there is a daily renewal process, a simile of the compassion-centre, but since the womb is a simile, the real process is much different to just being born again through a woman's womb. There is no Hebrew word for womb, the word comes in two forms, verb and noun, and both must have similar meanings, but differences in action. Therefore the womb in a noun form means compassion-centre and a verb form, compassion. This compassion-centre is referred to the second birth of sinners, and is a daily process, not a single event as some think upon say baptism.
How do we know it's a daily process?
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
The process is creative, and is similar to the way Jesus spoke words, and the Holy Spirit did those words using the power of the Father. In essence a divine Family creates you, but salvation flows, from the Father, via the SON, through the HS, who functions as a medium or agency.
Our Hebrew English translator terms the first relationship the "breath of life" and this second relationship the "breath of salvation".
Salvation is a name for Jesus, not just a Person, who is divine, but also fully human, able to bridge fallen man, to an unfallen divine God.
Notice David's prayer
renew a right spirit within me.
Than the HS can witness to our dealings with GOD, via the HS, that we are children of the Divine Family. ( a Bible verse we have discussed already much)
Compassion like the compassion-centre, is not a one off event of kindness given to the sinner.
Compassion is a process of ongoing kindness, on the part of the one giving it.
Ge 43:14 And God <'el> Almighty <Shadday> give <nathan> you mercy <racham> before <paniym> the man <'iysh>, (first mention of compassion, is not GOD's compassion, ongoing? )
Ge 43:30 And Joseph <Yowceph> made haste <mahar>; for his bowels <racham> did yearn <kamar> upon his brother <'ach> Was not Joseph's compassion, ongoing?
Pr 12:10 ¶ A righteous <tsaddiyq> man regardeth <yada`> the life <nephesh> of his beast <b@hemah>: but the tender mercies <racham> of the wicked <rasha`> are cruel <'akzariy>. This suggests the rasha have no ongoing compassion.
D What does it mean to be Born Again – Born of Spirit? To receive daily, hourly, the "breath of salvation"
D If man always has the HS within – why the need to pray for it? The first relationship cannot save you from dying, as GOD promised the day you eat, ye shall dying die. Only the second relationship can save you from dying, as Yashua yashed us from dying, by dying instead, and so paid his life for our life. This "breath of salvation" is a creative process, where a "right spirit" is placed within our nephesh.
D The thing returning to God is our soul – now free from its body it is free spirit R NO absolutely not. R It says ruwach returns to GOD, not nephesh returns to GOD, you are like Jews mixing terms.
D YES! Spirit ‘ruwach’ returns to GOD R Are you agreeing with me finally?
D You insist spirt can only mean HS – whenever you see the word you automatically add the modifier Holy – whether it is written or not R yes correct. I suppose people who write things, get lazy and write short cuts... Did not man write the special writings moved by the HS? So we have to understand the writer's hand, and look for the inspired writings. If you look at all sentences of ruwach, it is a medium function, and agency concept, and can fit both natural and divine applications. Natural it is a special wind. Divine it is the Shadday. One sentence the ruwach is created.
The Shaddy creates the ruwach, so the Father can flow into a RA world without destroying the sinners sinning in it. Otherwise without a medium, the RA, the sin, would immediately cease to exist.
D So if the ruwach is only the HS – when you die the HS returns to God – and there is no you as in individual – you were /are just a HS filled animal R I like that... but your nephesh is the you, only it is seen as very special to GOD, because your nephesh is partnered to GOD. You are not a HS filled animal, the HS is a medium function, you are really a Father filled animal, the medium functions as an agency for the divine Family of GOD, in relationship to you. But in a child like way, what you wrote is fine
R you are like Jews mixing terms. D Maybe I – like the Jew - am allowing scripture to speak to me And I have stopped be hung up on single words long ago R Language have words. If you study Ancient Hebrew, you find even the letters have meanings, that do not change. One letter, One meaning. Put the letters together you have One word with One meaning.
Hebrew does not have nouns as we call them, all there words are action words. They move.
Only since sin began, has language too become corrupted and spoiled. So yes polysemy is evidence of this spoiling of the Edenic Hebrew, God gave to Adam on the first day of his living.
Edenic Hebrew is picture based.
A means strong B means home C means walking D means door E means Person behold ! F means secure G means crooked H means outside J means authority K means palms L means hands-active M means flowing N means across the nations O means looking P means mouth Q means over the horizon unknown R means head S means pressing T means an important mark U means cover X means prickle Y means travelling Z means ploughing
Notice :-
AJ means "strong authority" modern Hebrew "el" "god" AJFE means "strong authority secure, Behold the Person" modern Hebrew "eloah" "father god" XUN means "prickles cover across the nations" Modern Hebrew "satan" "oppose"
D What's wrong with an animal? D And why does an animals nephesh go back to the dust – of zero consequence R Scripture only says
Ec 3:21 the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (KJV)
D This is all biology – unless a man be Born again D Nicodemus didn’t get it either – Jesus had to set him straight D Not talking about Biology – talking about spirit R your changing the topic...this is a renewed creative process
D So your satan God is not a solidary (individual) D Your satan is just an invisible flying animal - partnered to God – Driven by the HS R all creatures are powered by GOD, but GOD does not become responsible how that power from GOD is used and abused. Angels are creatures too, subject to death like humans are.
D I on the other hand believe God has reached down and spoke to a lot of men through the spirit How did the Jews know to write the Torah – God told them What words did they put in the Torah – what God told them Why did the Jew make their religion so convoluted – because it is what God told them R I too believe this. Jews had the oracles of GOD, but do most Jews follow the Hebrew Moses wrote? I doubt this.
Most follow the precepts and traditions of men, writiings in addition to Moses, but no longer agrees with Moses.
D The Jews never understood - anything the Jew believe R Did Jews understand the writings of Moses? Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
No many sought to gather Jesus, the man, on Sabbath to eat. Jesus said not too.
Ex 17:2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?
They also wanted water, but it not Jesus our source of water too?
Ex 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
This place pictured by Ron and Dr Kim, is a palm of fingers clefted into two, The water flowed from the Father rock up to the Jesus rock and onto the ground.
Ex 17:12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
Here is the first mention of faith, did the Jews understand the word? Lxx does ONCE, but the majority of Jews did not understand.
Ex 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
This is the wrong theology for supporting the YHWH, ye cannot do. Ye can only emanuah.
R Did Jews understand the writings of Moses? most did not
D Jews believe in the spirit - you must deny the spirit - man has no spirit we are just animal Jews believe in reincarnation - you speak against it then turn around and preach it as a good thing for the New Heaven and Earth R your choice
D I am so unlike you R I guess we are Dave, but I follow first the writings of Moses.
D Now you say – it was just the spirit of Elijah Double speak R The HS itself witnesses to our dealings with GOD, via the HS, that we are children of GOD. Thus these dealings of love, each nephesh makes with GOD, is termed the "spirit of man". It's not double speak, but it's not a word on it's own, its a relational concept - the "spirit of man".
D And yet you preach that we will all be reincarnated for the New Heaven and Earth R not reincarnated but resurrected. Our nepesh returns fully conscious again.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 9, 2020 17:23:56 GMT -5
D If you are full of the HS already – why do we ask for it to come into us R The breath of living, is a relationship to GOD, that allows your nephesh to live, and do and respond to GOD if you choose to love Him back. The nephesh is what makes you, you. Your ruwach – Holy Spirit, a medium function administrating relationships Your Nephesh – Soul - the essence of you, the human side of relationships Your basar – body - the machinery that allows relationships actions No all these have ruwach for spirit and nephesh for soul I absolutely agree The thing that makes you, you = soul Your spirit – is expressed visa a medium – I just say distance Body – is just the Body
This is exactly in the image / likeness of God God – Spirit – image God – Holy Spirit - ChristSince man's nephesh responds to the relationship of GOD, GOD via the HS is able to commune with man daily, as well as empower man to remain living on probation. Since man's nephesh responds to the relationship of GOD – man’s soulvia the HS - - just vis spirit – you are not the HS – but the HS can commune with you spirit to spiritto commune with man daily, as well as empower man to remain living on probation. Sorry Robert – salvation is absolute – salvation is not conditionalProbation makes it sound as if Christ will leave you – God will turn His back to you This is a doctrine of doubt – if I just keep the law – if my body behaves and justs keep doing something tov you be safe Strongly disagree This communion process happens to all men regardless if you straight or crooked, just as long as you hear the still small voice, GOD will commune to you, via the agency of the HS, via your conscience. In America – we say “BS” The wicked are not born again Christians walking in communion with the HSYes – all our energy comes from God – God created everything YES – it is by the power of the ‘energy’ that our chemistry works Yes – it is by the power of that ‘energy’ – our biology works This is not you, you – it is the matter that carries around your soul How do we know it's a daily process? Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Renew a right spirit within me – a onetime thing at the moment of salvationand take not thy holy spirit from me. – Born Again Christians are in a spirit to spirit communionRestore unto me the joy of thy salvation; - I sinned and deserve death (Prodigal Son - confession) Then will I teach transgressors thy ways – complete my mission on earth as commissioned in Jer 5:1 Ge 43:14 And God <'el> Almighty <Shadday> give <nathan> you mercy <racham> before <paniym> the man <'iysh>, (first mention of compassion, is not GOD's compassion, ongoing? ) Ongoing agree – daily increments if your good - no
Ge 43:30 And Joseph <Yowceph> made haste <mahar>; for his bowels <racham> did yearn <kamar> upon his brother <'ach> Was not Joseph's compassion, ongoing?OK – even tho this is not relevant to this discussion – I‘ll play Joseph was before the Mosaic Law – he never had a list of thing to do or practice He woke up everyday and WALKED with the LORD in communion Ongoing – not conditional
D What does it mean to be Born Again – Born of Spirit? To receive daily, hourly, the "breath of salvation" I wish you had a better answer – daily – incremental – conditional – sounds like Catholocism Repeated confession followed by repeated forgivenessD YES! Spirit ‘ruwach’ returns to GOD R Are you agreeing with me finally? I have always said – from God we came and to God we return Our spirit came from God – we are souljourning here on earth – and our souls/spirits return to God
You just keep arguing wordsD You insist spirt can only mean HS – whenever you see the word you automatically add the modifier Holy – whether it is written or not R yes correct. I suppose people who write things, get lazy and write short cuts... In America we say – “BS” Spirit is a stand-alone word – it means only spirit
R you are like Jews mixing terms. D Maybe I – like the Jew - am allowing scripture to speak to me And I have stopped be hung up on single words long ago R Language have words. If you study Ancient Hebrew, you find even the letters have meanings, that do not change. One letter, One meaning. Put the letters together you have One word with One meaning. And the you get terms like The Spirit of God vrs the Spirit of man and you twist youself in circles You do not translate – you dont even tray to translate – you just play word gamesD This is all biology – unless a man be Born again D Nicodemus didn’t get it either – Jesus had to set him straight D Not talking about Biology – talking about spirit R your changing the topic...this is a renewed creative processNo I am not - Nicodemus didn’t get it either – Jesus had to set him straightD I on the other hand believe God has reached down and spoke to a lot of men through the spirit How did the Jews know to write the Torah – God told them What words did they put in the Torah – what God told them Why did the Jew make their religion so convoluted – because it is what God told them R I too believe this. Jews had the oracles of GOD, but do most Jews follow the Hebrew Moses wrote? I doubt this.On the other hand I respect them so deeply - regardless of their hardship for the Lord - because thay are for the Lord - perpetual - walk with God and be victorous or forget God and be victumised for about 500 years in a row now - just to Birth jesus Christ for the World I do not hate the Jews - I do not consider them in error They had a very hard life to live for the Lord dosrespect thim if you choose It is the Catholic Teaching of de-Judaising the ChristianMost follow the precepts and traditions of men, writiings in addition to Moses, but no longer agrees with Moses.Yes - other men that waslked with God Enoch is a a valuable source to the jewish cosmology You critize Enoch because Rome doesn't like it Yet you quote me Jud_1:14 And prophesy also to these did the seventh from Adam—Enoch—saying, 'Lo, the Lord did come in His saintly myriads, From the agl - Enoch the prophet - yet Christians rail against Go'd Prophet Enoch Jews - just take him at his word - without the bias of Rome's approval D The Jews never understood - anything the Jew believe R Did Jews understand the writings of Moses? Who is the Judge of this GOD - with God's chosen people Or a Christian that just calls them legalistic - because this Christian does not understand the role of the Jew as God's chosen people Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.The Great ContestR Did Jews understand the writings of Moses? most did notAnswer - how many Christian understand the Torah? Answer - you hsave no idea of wehat it means to be Jew in this world - at anytime in History - even today Answer - I judge not - Thank you Jews for maintsing your faith through any and all diversity D And yet you preach that we will all be reincarnated for the New Heaven and Earth R not reincarnated but resurrected. Our nepesh returns fully conscious again.So you Body comes back from the grave and your soul is reinstalled – You are re – installed in a mortal body You are re-installed in a carnate body You are re-incarrnated But you argue words – just so you do not have to acknowledge the Jewish view
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 13:34:42 GMT -5
Maybe Richard is right, I am arguing with you, and wasting our time together I was hoping you would consider the Hebrew torah and the salvation in the teachings. I pray and hope it doesn't matter, we are judged by the light we live up to You say "But you argue words – just so you do not have to acknowledge the Jewish view or Dave's view.
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Post by Dave on Aug 10, 2020 16:23:18 GMT -5
You say "But you argue words – just so you do not have to acknowledge the Jewish view or Dave's view. The Council of Laodicea: Cannon 29, 364 ADChristians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.Do not follow Jewish teachings – follow Rome’s viewTell me - why is it that you insist everything Jewish is in error and needs to be reunderstood Is this what the HS tells you - or is this just the perpetuated attitude of the Roman Church According to Rome it is an anathema from Christ to be a Messianic Jew and Rome would have put you to death in as little as 200 years ago Last exacuion of a Catholic Inquisition = 1853 Do you really feel comfortable with this attitude in the presence of a Feel Good tov only God of Love God used the Jews for 5000 yrs - But God only loves the Christian?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2020 13:19:49 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
I follow the torah of Moses first and all the prophets that are in harmony with these scrolls, across the former rains (OT) of Yashua and the latter rains (NT) of Yashua.
Roman Catholic teachings do not exist in the Hebrew. Some Roman Catholics were supports of torah, and thus are saved, but many do not support the Hebrew torah. Are you surprised truth is mixed with error? This occurs in all religions.
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1121.htm
Notice this point:
Here is a direct quote from the Augsburg Confession as recorded by a Roman Catholic scribe, from article 28, Saturday June 25 1530 AD at 3:00pm.
Moreover, it is disputed whether bishops or pastors have the right to introduce ceremonies in the Church and to make laws concerning foods, festivals and degrees, that is, orders of ministers, etc. They who claim this right for bishops refer to this passage [John 16:12-13]: I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. They also refer to the example of the Apostles who commanded to abstain from blood and things strangled in Acts 15:29. They refer to the Sabbath Day as having been changed to Sunday; seemingly contrary to the Ten Commandments. Indeed, there is no other example they make more of than the one concerning the Sabbath Day. Great, they say, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments! source link
Soon will come a time when faithful Protestant's must face and stand for all the truth, in the end of time. Shalom
Our fellow Protestants did not fully Protest the Antichrist power in their day, and we will be held accountable for this Strong Authority that GOD allows to sweep over the world in the end time with its mandatory global Sunday law Sabbath, which violates the Hebrew torah teachings.
The word "Hebrews" means to cross over. So we must be a "Hebrew" to be saved, we cross over from death to life. That means the Yashua supporter must be supporting Yashua's torah teachings, both the former teaching and the latter teachings.
Most Christians so called only follow NT and say OT was abolished? No
Yashua did not abolish anything, but only came to change the way sin-offering is done, in the latter rains, from animal sacrifice to plant memorials (bread and wine), the teachings have new doctrines in New wine Skins, meaning the NT is placed in the OT setting.
During the Exodus, Dave, it was Yashua-YHWH who led Israel out of the land of slavery. Sadly the LXX removes YHWH with poor Greek words, and so much is lost due to translation.
So this means "Moses was a Christian", Moses supported Yashua-YHWH.
Hope this helps you SHalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 11, 2020 20:19:15 GMT -5
I follow the torah of Moses first and all the prophets that are in harmony with these scrolls, across the former rains (OT) of Yashua and the latter rains (NT) of Yashua.
Then you should sound like a Messianic Jew – you don’t
Roman Catholic teachings do not exist in the Hebrew. Fallen angels – Ezk 28 Isa 14 Lucifer = all Catholic
Soon will come a time when faithful Protestant's must face and stand for all the truth, in the end of time. Shalom
We will all stand in judgment Just make sure you are – spiritually mature – die in Christ Now that it should be clear to you that man exist in a trinity of his own Soul (deep within – the thing that makes you, you) – spirit – soul in expression / interaction – spirit to spirit
Just to be clear Soul = you – you are an individual – only one of you – Spirit = (I hate this word and use it only for a reference) spirit = ghost Catholics say – Father, Son, and Holy Ghost But to me – a ghost was once a live thing now dead – I hate the word
Soul – you, you Spirit – you at a distance – out of body experience 2Co 12:2 …. he was caught up to the third heaven. 2 Co 12:3 I know such a man (whether in the body or outside of the body I don’t know—God knows)—
And Body is just body – don’t matter Brain and intellectual thinking do not matter Smart or stupid – retarded or genius – each on their own souljourn Hurting the brain does not impair gnosis (Remembrance) of the Lord
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Our fellow Protestants did not fully Protest the Antichrist power in their day, and we will be held accountable for this Strong Authority that GOD allows to sweep over the world in the end time with its mandatory global Sunday law Sabbath, which violates the Hebrew torah teachings.
This is an entire study of it own Jesus said – just give Caesar his due William Penn is quoted as saying – ‘Why would any Christian focused on Seeking Lord have the time or the interest in the affairs of men, or government office.’ – Then he became the first governor of Pennsylvania
This always got me about Christendom – PRAY FOR WORLD PEACE Yet – Scripture say Matt 10 and the Tribulation is ahead of us all – is that world peace World Peace is a nice campaign catch phrase for the Feel Good God is only Love and Mercy crowd Jesus said – we are to pray – God’s Will be done – on earth as in heaven Richard loves to talk about this – asking for things man wants If it is not God's Will then it isn't going to happen He will not pray for Mary's broken hip but will pray loudly for God's Will to work through Mary
Most Christians so called only follow NT and say OT was abolished? No YES THEY DO – we have a New Covenant – I hear it all the time
Yashua did not abolish anything, but only came to change the way sin-offering is done, in the latter rains, from animal sacrifice to plant memorials (bread and wine), the teachings have new doctrines in New wine Skins, meaning the NT is placed in the OT setting.
NT in the OT or OT in the NT – same difference To say - from animal sacrifice to plant memorials Is very one dimensional – and almost elementary Sun day school stuff
The Gospel of Philip – The Nag Hammadi Library Compare the soul. It is a precious thing and it came to be in a contemptible body.
Some are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing.
The Gospel of Thomas - The Nag Hammadi Library (53) His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision beneficial or not?" He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable."
During the Exodus, Dave, it was Yashua-YHWH who led Israel out of the land of slavery. Sadly the LXX removes YHWH with poor Greek words, and so much is lost due to translation. YES! ABSOLUTLY – God = Christ = HS = YHWY = Christ = God – Only One God So this means "Moses was a Christian", Moses supported Yashua-YHWH. YES! Absolutely
Ponder this What is asked of the Jew - believe – support – obedience to YHWY We are Gentile Christians – our call is to believe Christ = YHWY Each judged according to his due –
Question #1 – to Jews have to be converted to Christianity to be saved? Every Evangelical Christian in America will say – yes – one way – only Jesus YET – the hand of God has them the biggest supporter of the Nation of Israel today
Question #2 – Why would God make a dysfunctional archon ra thing
Pro 16:4 (YLT) All things hath Jehovah wrought for Himself, And also the wicked worketh for a day of evil. Pro 16:4 (KJV) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
WHY? = “FOR HIMSELF”
Pro 16:4 (TLV) Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Pro 16:4 (OJB) Hashem works out all things for Himself, indeed, even the rasha (wicked) for the Yom Ra’ah (day of evil).
WHY? = “FOR HIMSELF” – GOD’S WILL – GOD’s PLAN
I love or conversations – if you are learning anything you just ain’t paying attention I know I am and I love it – it motivates me
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2020 13:24:55 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, yes it motivates me too, I study my Bible, ask and pray to GOD, and we are learning together.
Proverbs 16:4
H) ( GhNH) ac: Answer co: ? ab: ?: An answer or reply to a previous question or request. V) ( Gh-NH) — Answer: [Hebrew and Aramaic] [freq. 359] (vf: Paal, Niphal) |kjv: answer, hear, testify, speak, sing, bear, cry, witness, give| {str: 6030, 6032} am) ( MGh-NH) — Answer: [freq. 8] |kjv: answer| {str: 4617} ~~~~~~~~~~
H4617 must mean "answer" the Ancient Hebrew reads "The flowing crookedness across the nations. Behold the Person"
Job 32:3 Also against his three <shalowsh> friends <rea`> was his wrath <'aph> kindled <charah>, because they had found <matsa'> no answer <ma`aneh>, and yet had condemned <rasha`> Job <'Iyowb>.
The flowing crookedness of these three friends over Job came to nothing.
Job 32:5 When Elihu <'Eliyhuw> saw <ra'ah> that there was no answer <ma`aneh> in the mouth <peh> of these three <shalowsh> men <'enowsh>, then his wrath <'aph> was kindled <charah>.
The flowing crookedness of these three friends enraged Elihu to speak.
Pr 15:1 ¶ A soft <rak> answer <ma`aneh> turneth <shuwb> away wrath <chemah>: but grievous <`etseb> words <dabar> stir up <`alah> anger <'aph>.
Interesting. A soft flow of crookedness over people, is better than a harder flow of words.
Pr 15:23 ¶ A man <'iysh> hath joy <simchah> by the answer <ma`aneh> of his mouth <peh>: and a word <dabar> spoken in due season <`eth>, how good <towb> is it!
Same as above. flowing crookedness over people can be a joy to them. Here is another example of this idea:
Pr 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. 7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
So helping others in their RA, using RA words, is a good thing?
Pr 16:1 ¶ The preparations <ma`arak> of the heart <leb> in man <'adam>, and the answer <ma`aneh> of the tongue <lashown>, is from the LORD <Y@hovah>.
Pr 16:4 The LORD <Y@hovah> hath made <pa`al> all "as an answer" <ma`aneh>: yea, even the wicked <rasha`> for the day <yowm> of "dysfunction" <ra`>.
YHWH makes a flow of crookedness over people, even the wicked people in the days of their dysfunctional living.
Can not GOD use RA to help people turn from RA and become Good? You cannot use this verse to lay claim GOD created non-function in a universe of only function.
Pr 29:19 ¶ A servant <`ebed> will not be corrected <yacar> by words <dabar>: for though he understand <biyn> he will not answer <ma`aneh>.
Mic 3:7 Then shall the seers <chozeh> be ashamed <buwsh>, and the diviners <qacam> confounded <chapher>: yea, they shall all cover <`atah> their lips <sapham>; for there is no answer <ma`aneh> of God <'elohiym>.(KJV)
The verse you quoted seems to me that GOD uses dysfunction to His advantage.
D Why would God make a dysfunctional archon ra thing?
R God could not make anything dysfunctional in a functional universe. These idea oppose each other. God would not make anything that opposes his creation either.
You ignore the Hebrew verse Ezekiel 28 saying its Catholic? I see the Hebrew in it as Hebrew.
Yet you are happy to follow "trinity" and that's is truly Catholic. Whereas I don't follow trinity, because this word is NOT a Hebrew word.
It's near impossible to find a Catholic definition of their invented word "trinity" from their website.
The word I follow for Elohiym, is "family".
You also follow Catholic purgatory , but its not Hebrew either. Sure Jesus quoted the flow of crookedness over the Jews, because they were stuck in their RA, but the Hebrew torah does not speak of souls tormented after dying. The only people tormented are the living ones, a resurrected nephesh. All humans will one day be resurrected after their death. The straight ones are also resurrected go on to meet Jesus forever. The wicked ones resurrected meet Jesus later, only to see their sins, and receive just rewards for their sins before they die again, this time for eternity.
I am so happy you agree that Jesus YHWH led Israel as followers of Him. Moses and his people were the first OT Christians.
Pity you ignore the Hebrew words in Ezekiel 28, the "cherub chata".
Shalom my friend, enjoy your day with GOD.
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Post by Dave on Aug 12, 2020 21:01:08 GMT -5
H4617 must mean "answer" the Ancient Hebrew reads "The flowing crookedness across the nations. Behold the Person"
Pr 16:4 The LORD <Y@hovah> hath made <pa`al> all "as an answer" <ma`aneh>: yea, even the wicked <rasha`> for the day <yowm> of "dysfunction" <ra`>.
YHWH makes a flow of crookedness over people, even the wicked people in the days of their dysfunctional living.
Are you sure you want to say this God makes ‘the flow of crookedness flow over all people – even the wicked But your God cannot do ra? Aren’t you just contradicting yourself – you sound like it
NO – I am not a Hebrew translator but your error is so obvious 1- An answer or reply to a previous question or request. In English we call this a reflexive noun – redundant
2- 'people' – is not in your sentence
God made everything for his answer - even the wicked
Messianic Jewish Translation Pro 16:4 (TLV) Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Orthodox Jewish Translation Pro 16:4 (OJB) Hashem works out all things for Himself, indeed, even the rasha (wicked) for the Yom Ra’ah (day of evil).
Pr 16:1 ¶ The preparations <ma`arak> of the heart <leb> in man <'adam>, and the answer <ma`aneh> of the tongue <lashown>, is from the LORD <Y@hovah>.
Here is your proof than man is just driven around by God What did you say to me – OH ya Pity you ignore the Hebrew
Pro 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits. You say - yehôvâh – measures / judges the ruwach You say yehovah judges the HS – How rediculas Yehovah judged man’s ruwach spirit Pro 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established. Do or say anything you want against the base Theology – you will be successful Many a successful preachers out there – all over the place – getting rich Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
WHY? = “FOR HIMSELF” – GOD’S WILL – GOD’s PLAN
Pro 16:5 Adonai abhors all the proud in heart. Be assured, they will not go unpunished.
Pride in (Mind/Body) – instead of giving the Glory to God Moses – striking the rock
Dear Robert – you should read the book as a novel at least once in your life I used a Chronological Bible for a long time it is so helpful
The entire saga of Israel = walk with God and be strong against your enemies The entire saga of Christianity = walk with God and be strong against your enemies
Israel had to fight their way out Egypt Israel had to fight their way into Canaan Israel had to fight to control Israel The ahl ended around 500 BC You should really study the struggle to regain and rededicate the Temple just before Jesus
God has his hand on the ehole wold - not just a few
The verse you quoted seems to me that GOD uses dysfunction to His advantage. WHY? = “FOR HIMSELF” – GOD’S WILL – GOD’s PLAN
Why would God make a dysfunctional archon ra thing? WHY? = “FOR HIMSELF” – GOD’S WILL – GOD’s PLAN
R God could not make anything dysfunctional in a functional universe. These idea oppose each other. God would not make anything that opposes his creation either. I do not have the authority to place limits upon God
Isa 45:7 … I make peace, and create (bara) evil (ra) I the LORD do all these things. You say engineer – God engineers all ra – God is your criminal mastermind I say fattened – God fattens the ra – expands- enlarges
WHY? = “FOR HIMSELF” – GOD’S WILL – GOD’s PLAN
You ignore the Hebrew verse Ezekiel 28 saying its Catholic? I see the Hebrew in it as Hebrew. We have been studying these same two words for a year I have begged you to validate your view
Instead – I got – God is Balaam’s satan – God is a satan Want to revisit the 23 + 49?
Yet you are happy to follow "trinity" and that's is truly Catholic.
Actually – the Trinity = Gnostic Christianity Valentinus was the first Roman Bishop to pen: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit And there are 3 type of Christians – Spiritual (Born Again) – Ordinary – and lost
90% of the concept came from John – author of a Gospel – 3 epistles – and Revelation And more writing in the Nag Hammadi than in the NT John was a First Century Messianic Jew – First Christians John 1:1-4
The other auther was the James
The Gospel of Truth - The Nag Hammadi Library (not my favorite text because it doesn't identify it's author) this is the Father, from whom the beginning came forth, (and) to whom all will return who have come forth from him. And they have appeared for the glory and the joy of his name.
Now the name of the Father is the Son. It is he who first gave a name to the one who came forth from him, who was himself, and he begot him as a son. He gave him his name, which belonged to him; he is the one to whom belongs all that exists around him, the Father. His is the name; his is the Son. It is possible for him to be seen. The name, however, is invisible, because it alone is the mystery of the invisible, which comes to ears that are completely filled with it by him. For indeed, the Father's name is not spoken, but (rather,) it is apparent through a Son.
Whereas I don't follow trinity, because this word is NOT a Hebrew word.Words - you worship words - you need to learn to translate
It's near impossible to find a Catholic definition of their invented word "trinity" from their website. Because it is Gnostic
You also follow Catholic purgatory , but its not Hebrew either. Jude calls Enoch an author and a Prophet The Book of Enoch is quoted 64 times in the NT
The Book of Enoch – is the home of multi-dimensionality – long before science learned to add 2+2 The Book of Enoch – include a very active and viable heavenly realm
I am so happy you agree that Jesus YHWH led Israel as followers of Him. Moses and his people were the first OT Christians. Christ = YHWY Christ is not an angel
Pity you ignore the Hebrew words in Ezekiel 28, the "cherub chata". Pity you base all your theological understand around a two word metaphor
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2020 2:27:56 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
D YHWH makes a flow of crookedness over people, even the wicked people in the days of their dysfunctional living.
D Are you sure you want to say this God makes ‘the flow of crookedness flow over all people – even the wicked D But your God cannot do ra? D Aren’t you just contradicting yourself – you sound like it
R No I am not. You forget one thing. In the beginning BEFORE archons existed, before SIINNING ANGELS existed, there was a perfect universe, with only function in it, no dysfunction at all. How can I say this so confidently? Because GOD is love, Love is functional.
Shadows are dysfunctional, especially umbra shadows. Such things would not exist in a perfect functional world.
Do you agree that GOD is only functional, that his love would be always only functional?
So what went wrong?
We both have in our theories of faith : "angels that sin"
You have archons intentionally designed by GOD to sin, hence your idea of sin, is something GOD designs for some creatures, but for humans it's more a life and death choice. How unfair this is.
sinning angels designed by GOD to test humans to sin. How unfair this is? You spoil the definition of sin.
In fact in your theory you cannot define sin, because humans who sin experience eternal death, yet sinning angels who sin, it's OK, God designed them this way. That's a silly idea.
It's a word game you play, a word has two different consequences depending upon the creature you are.
It's ok for archons who are angels to sin, but not ok for humans to sin.
So this word "chata" means different meaning depending upon the creature we are talking about.
It's a word game you play Dave, how many other words have meanings for different creatures?
Well you say oppose means to oppose humans, but never means oppose GOD. Yet again you have different meanings for different Beings. You are playing word games.
I don't, my understanding is GOD invented Hebrew, and as a Edenic language each word has a single meaning, regardless of which Being it's referred to.
For example it it says "War in heaven" this is a meaning similar to how humans understand war on earth. But I do get you idea, that angels did not kill each other, and so GOD invented poetry in His Hebrew for a reason, to show us similes. A simile is something like something, but not quite the same. So heavenly things are slightly different to eathly things, ,I get that.
YHWH makes a flow of crookedness over people, even the wicked people in the days of their dysfunctional living. In a universe with sinning and dysfunction in it, sure GOD uses ra and dysfunction to His advantage. But why did the universe become dyfunctional? Or in other words how did sin come into God's perfect universe?
You say GOD intentionally made some angels with designed sinning? NO Scripture does not say this: There is little about angels in Scripture:
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
Its quite a lot of words and sentences, actually, that GOD made all the angels perfect and made some anointed and holy. These words directly reefute your Gnostic writings about archons(angels designed to do sinning to test mankind).
So what went wrong?
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub,
The perfect anointed angel begins to sin, and GOD has to purpose to destroy thee.
This is where the darkness of umbra shadows came from, and why the universe changed.
Messianic Jewish Translation Job 32:3 He was also angry with his three friends because they had not found an answer, and yet had condemned Job. Messianic Jewish Translation Pro 16:4 (TLV) Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Your Messanic Jewish translation, Dave is not consistent.
R God could not make anything dysfunctional in a functional universe. R These idea oppose each other. R God would not make anything that opposes his creation either. D I do not have the authority to place limits upon God R Your answer does not follow Scripture
Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie;
So GOD cannot ever lie. Lying is by definition a sin. Therefore GOD cannot sin either. Dysfunction is the fruit of sinning. Therefore GOD cannot do RA either.
However, as I showed you GOD can use a crooked flow in a RA world to make RA humans repent and turn to Him, God does this of course without sinning Himself. Scripture also says GOD engineers RA in His perfect world, so RA can be observed. But GOD doesn't do RA.
Some of your statements like why did the Amorites die, and why wait 400 years before allowing them to die, are difficult things to answer. These things are termed in KJV God's strange act. One day you will get to see how a TOV GOD can work in a RA world, and yet do everything as an act of love.
Na 1:9 affliction shall not rise up the second time.
This suggests a RA world will never rise up ever again. This goes against your idea of GOD intentionally creating some angels to sin on purpose to test humans to sin, while those angels are allowed to sin, live forever?
D Isa 45:7 … I make peace, and create (bara) evil (ra) I the LORD do all these things. You say engineer – God engineers all ra – God is your criminal mastermind
R your not quoting the full contrast...
Isa 45:7 I form <yatsar> the light <'owr>, and create <bara'> darkness <choshek>: I make <`asah> peace <shalowm>, and create <bara'> evil <ra`>: I the LORD <Y@hovah> do <`asah> all these
Like so
I form <yatsar> the light <'owr>, I make <`asah> peace <shalowm>, (THE LORD is THIS) I create <bara'> darkness <choshek>: I create <bara'> evil <ra`>: (THE LORD is NOT this, but DOES these things)
dark opposes light peace opposes ra
Yes the YHWH engineers the RA, because it is strange to HIS normal character.
The same LORD also engineered creatures in His image, but these creature are not exactly the same as HIS normal person.
This verse lists contrasts.
The verse does not answer WHY GOD engineers RA?
Because sin changed GOD's perfect world of love.
You don't have GOD needing to change anything, in fact GOD creates a RA world on purpose, to fully develop a love response in Man? Is such testing necessary? I would say no. It implies Love is never perfect, but requires hate and killing to fully develop love.
D Now the name of the Father is the Son. It is he who first gave a name to the one who came forth from him, who was himself, and he begot him as a son. He gave him his name, which belonged to him; he is the one to whom belongs all that exists around him, the Father. His is the name; his is the Son. It is possible for him to be seen. The name, however, is invisible, because it alone is the mystery of the invisible, which comes to ears that are completely filled with it by him. For indeed, the Father's name is not spoken, but (rather,) it is apparent through a Son.
R This quote, I do not support. Yashua YHWH-Son of the Father YHWH, was eternally a member of eloiym from eternity. The Son did not come forth from a Father, as this quote claims. Such a claim makes the Father greater than the Son?
D The Book of Enoch is quoted 64 times in the NT R The word Enoch appears 3 times in the NT? and NOT once mentions a "book of Enoch"
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 14, 2020 9:44:44 GMT -5
You forget one thing. In the beginning BEFORE archons existed, before SIINNING ANGELS existed, there was a perfect universe, with only function in it, no dysfunction at all. Yes! Gen 1:1 was all function – agree - then Gen 1:2
Shadows are dysfunctional, Such things would not exist in a perfect functional world. But they do exist in our world – so all your comments belong to a fantasy land somewhere – not here
Do you agree that GOD is only functional, that his love would be always only functional? YES! – God’s Will is the definition of tov – whatever he wants = tov And God made creation just as he wants – because God is absolute -
So what went wrong? Nothing went wrong – creation is as God creates it – it is God’s Plan we live in
You on the other hand – think God made a mistake God made everything perfect then another God changed all God’s good work - rediculas
You have archons intentionally designed by GOD to sin, hence your idea of sin, is something GOD designs for some creatures, but for humans it's more a life and death choice. How unfair this is. Why must you apply man’s rules and behaviors to the heavens
Why do you refuse to answer my questions? Instead of answering a question – you just revert to ranting about cherub chata
Did Judas sin? Is Judas damned / cursed / lost – because God used him to facilitate God’s Plan It should be an easy question for you – everything is just black and white
When Israel falls away from God – why do Israel’s enemies fall upon Israel – is this not the hand of God
sinning angels designed by GOD to test humans to sin. How unfair this is? You spoil the definition of sin. Archon are to test all creation Prove to me that when the archon do God’s will – they sin God TOLD / INSTRUCTED / COMMANDED satan to oppress Job – Satan is following God explicit orders and limits – is this a sin
Is it a sin to obey God – you insist it is
God was satan to Balaam – therefore your God is a sinner
2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah.
God of love angry and HE forced David against them – this is the tov of righteous discipline
1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.
Evil satan – who always disobeys God – forces David – this is ra evil
Sorry Robert – your satan theology is contradictory
Either God is satan Himself – or satan works for God
In fact in your theory you cannot define sin, because humans who sin experience eternal death, yet sinning angels who sin, it's OK, God designed them this way. That's a silly idea. Man is the only creature that can choose – correct This makes man’s choice important - chata or mitzvah You say this is silly – this is the way creation IS – this is how God made it and therefore according to Him – it is tov
It's a word game you play, a word has two different consequences depending upon the creature you are. It's ok for archons who are angels to sin, but not ok for humans to sin.
It is perfectly OK for being to obey God and fulfill their assigned roles The Resurrection is God’s Gift to mankind - John 3:16 – this is a tov The resurrection could not happen without the Cross – ra The cross wouldn’t have happened if the Jews didn’t reject Christ – ra Man wouldn’t need salvation – except for Eve’s ra choice And the cross wouldn’t have happened – if Judas did not play his part – ra
Why is it that all ra works for God?
For example it it says "War in heaven" this is a meaning similar to how humans understand war on earth. But I do get you idea, that angels did not kill each other, and so GOD invented poetry in His Hebrew for a reason, to show us similes. A simile is something like something, but not quite the same. So heavenly things are slightly different to eathly things, ,I get that.
YES! your original version of war – is not wrong necessarily – just skewed to the worse possible definition – this would indicate a long hard struggel YES! This word could mean just a slap in the face – a strong verbal rebuke – if the word is skewed to the best possible definition –this could be there was darkness and along comes the light and – POOF! – darkness gone
YHWH makes a flow of crookedness over people, even the wicked people in the days of their dysfunctional living. (Your translation is not consistant with current Hebrew translations – either you are wrong – or all of them) In a universe with sinning and dysfunction in it, sure GOD uses ra and dysfunction to His advantage. But why did the universe become dyfunctional? Or in other words how did sin come into God's perfect universe?
1- God uses the ra – to His advantage – agree – His tool 2- Why did the world become dysfunctional? Do not quote me here – this is an impossible question – why did God do something My stab at it – just speculation on my part – making this up
3 Points Point 1 – ra serves a valuable function within creation Without entropy / decay earth would be buried in dead plant and animals It is all a part of God’s plan / design – in nature the ra serves a function in this design
Point 2 - God made man for – relationship OK God could have made a puppy – there is a relationship – is it intimate? God could have made some cows – there is a relationship – is it intimate? God made angels that serve – there is also a relationship – is it intimate?
So God made man with the ability to choose God – now the relation is bi-directional – intimate
But what does man have to choose from The Rabbi said – Eve knew that Paradise is not where God wanted them to be – Why In Paradise – what’s the choice – only two trees –
Now we come to the prodigal son – the one that stayed home – got his inheritance – sure But the one that RETURNED home – was more loved by the father – why
The son that stayed home never made a choice – he is a cow – a dog – an angel This is a relationship - sure The son that came home – chose to leave his world and return to the father This is a bi-directional intimate relationship – for both the Father and the son
Point 3 – The Rabbi said – Eve knew they need to step down into the lower world To physically relocate from ‘Paradise’ to archonvile – earth God has sent the archon first – gave them a head start Then came Eve
Then – Enoch says – God sent the bane elohiym to teach man civilization What do we call civilization – war – strife – governments – criminals – laws – cultures
And no matter how you read the story – man lost / failed – all corrupt save Noah
Contest reset – with new rules and limits – a new age begins And what happens with each new age
Ecc 1:11 There is no remembrance of the former generations; neither shall there be any remembrance of the latter generations that are to come, among those that shall come after.
However – this time – eight human beings did remember Noah lived for another 350 years after the flood – how many grandchildren is this? And the #1 question to Grandpa would have been – tell us what is was like before the Flood
Wizards, Lords, dark-magic, potions, incantations, war machines, armies, trolls, troglodytes, and chimeras of all kinds, bane elohiym gods that came from the heavens – UFO aliens – bane elohiym/human (1/2 breed) demi-gods – Nephilim
A time of dragons – fire breathing and all – Behemoths (dinos)
War machine and magic as the result of science and manipulation of nature – but it all sank beneath the waves – Atlantis
All of this it true – all of this is real – and all of this happened before the Flood All of this = The Memoirs of Noah
You say GOD intentionally made some angels with designed sinning? NO NO – I say God made creatures for a specific purpose – function – role You are the one that says – to obey God is a sin
Scripture does not say this: Corrct There is little about angels in Scripture: Correct – so you anthropomorphize them
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
So what went wrong? Why do you insist God lost control of His creation Don’t you see the very question – of what went wrong – means God made a mistake – or loses control As a blasphemy
Either God slipped or another Power is equally as strong as God to be able to alter God’s Will
Nothing went wrong – it is God’s plan – all in God’s control
Eze 28:16 (KJV) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub,
Eze 28:16 ἀπὸ πλήθους τῆς ἐμπορίας σου ἔπλησας τὰ ταμίειά σου ἀνομίας καὶ ἥμαρτες καὶ ἐτραυματίσθης ἀπὸ ὄρους τοῦ θεοῦ, καὶ ἤγαγέν σε τὸ χερουβ ἐκ μέσου λίθων πυρίνων.
I have been looking at this Greek from the LXX for two hours now - I have a Textus Receptus and a LXX – neither translates the same as the KJV
ἐτραυματίσθης - is a hard word to figure out – I do not translate the phrase – “and I will destroy thee” as anyone else does
By the multitude of your merchandise, your storehouses are filled with AMONIA – no verbs here You are in error – the verb is AAI-2S (jn the both the TR and LXX) Aorist Tense (did it on purpose) Active voice (doing it right now) Indicative Mood (Fact) 2nd person singular – you did it It is a fact the you are in error right now
By the multitude of your merchandise, your storehouses are filled with AMONIA -and You are in error – ὄρους τοῦ θεοῦ, noun (gen case) + article (gen case) + noun (gen case) gen = through / by You are in error by comparing yourself with God
By the multitude of your merchandise, your storehouses are filled with AMONIA - and You are in error by comparing yourself with God – and ἤγαγέν (V-AAI-3PS) σε τὸ χερουβ
Verb – lead or drive – Aorist tense (did it on purpose) Passive voice (have /has) Indicative Mood (fact) 3rd person singular – he He has lead you / has driven σε (you) τὸ χερουβ (the cherub)
ἐκ μέσου λίθων πυρίνων. – out from the middle of the stones that burn
By the multitude of your merchandise, your storehouses are filled with AMONIA - and You are in error by comparing yourself with God – and He has driven you, the cherub, out from the middle of the stones that burn
Ezk 28:16 (TLV) By the abundance of your trade they filled you within with violence. So you have sinned. So I threw you out as a profane thing from the mountain of God. I made you vanish, guardian cheruv, from among the stones of fire. I made you vanish – passive voice – I like it
Ezk 28:16 (OJB) By the multitude of thy trading they have filled the midst of thee with chamas, and thou hast sinned; therefore I will banish thee as profane out of the Har Elohim; and I will destroy thee, O guardian keruv, from the midst of the stones of eish. I will destroy you in the future – I do not like it
Exk 28:16 (KJV) I will destroy thee, - I don’t like it
The perfect anointed angel begins to sin, and GOD has to purpose to destroy thee. Someone compares himself to God – but is in error – and He drove them from the stone that burn
Why do I believe this is about a man and not your satan
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Does satan have a heart? Your satan should be heartless When was satn cast to the gound so all the King of the earth could scoff at him? This ‘somebody’ was destroyed and his ashes scattered upon the earth Your satan is destined for the Lake of Fire Your man here is to be forgotten – and is no more The archon are still here alive and well
Messianic Jewish Translation Job 32:3 He was also angry with his three friends because they had not found an answer, and yet had condemned Job. Messianic Jewish Translation Pro 16:4 (TLV) Adonai works everything out for his own purpose—even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Your Messanic Jewish translation, Dave is not consistent. So Job is mad at his friends because that had no answers for Job So God cannot do what – the story of Job did not turn out as God wanted? I swear I do not see your correlation here
R God could not make anything dysfunctional in a functional universe. R These idea oppose each other. R God would not make anything that opposes his creation either. D I do not have the authority to place limits upon God R Your answer does not follow Scripture Oh - so scripture does say I can place limits of God?
Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; So – when have I said God lies God’s says – he makes the good and the RA – He does all these thing for he is God Scripture says – God created all thing through Him – for Him This includes the ra and the wicked – so when has God lied?
However, as I showed you GOD can use a crooked flow in a RA world to make RA humans repent and turn to Him, God does this of course without sinning Himself. Scripture also says GOD engineers RA in His perfect world, so RA can be observed. But GOD doesn't do RA. Sounds Gnostic to me
Some of your statements like why did the Amorites die, and why wait 400 years before allowing them to die, are difficult things to answer. These things are termed in KJV God's strange act. All a part of God’s plan and God’s Will You insist that something went wrong – satan took over and changed everything
One day you will get to see how a TOV GOD can work in a RA world, and yet do everything as an act of love. This is exactly the Jewish attitude and Gnostic If man sees something as ra – we just do not see the tov in God greater plan
I form <yatsar> the light <'owr>, I make <`asah> peace <shalowm>, (THE LORD is THIS) I create <bara'> darkness <choshek>: I create <bara'> evil <ra`>: (THE LORD is NOT this, but DOES these things) OK – agree – God does these things – God’s Plan – God’s Will no one else’s – just God
Yes the YHWH engineers the RA, because it is strange to HIS normal character. Spoken like a true Gnostic – or Jew
The verse does not answer WHY GOD engineers RA? Because sin changed GOD's perfect world of love. Here you go – someone else changed God creation – altered God’s plan – over rode God Will - NO
D The Book of Enoch is quoted 64 times in the NT R The word Enoch appears 3 times in the NT? and NOT once mentions a "book of Enoch"
Oops! – You should really learn more about the Hebrew you love
Book of Enoch - (Ethopic Version) 350BC Egypt These are verses from the Book of Enoch that are quoted in the New Testament by Christ and the Apostles, or are otherwise of interest
Enoch 2:1-2 Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.
Jude 1:14-15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(In a dream Enoch is speaking with angels in their tongue and now he was speaking in the tongue of Men)
Enoch 14:1 This is the book of the words of righteousness, and of the reproof of the Watchers, who belong to the world, according to that which He, who is holy and great, commanded in the vision. I perceived in my dream, that I was now speaking with a tongue of flesh, and with my breath, which the Mighty One has put into the mouth of men, that they might converse with it.
Enoch 83:1 1I lifted up my hands in righteousness, and blessed the holy, and the Great One. I spoke with the breath of my mouth, and with a tongue of flesh, which God has formed for all the sons of mortal men, that with it they may speak; giving them breath, a mouth, and a tongue to converse with.
I Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak in the tongues of men and of Angels . . .
(The souls of men complain, saying, Obtain Justice for us with the Most High)
Enoch 9:9-12 Thus has the whole earth been filled with blood and with iniquity.And now behold the souls of those who are dead, cry out. And complain even to the gate of heaven. Their groaning ascends; nor can they escape from the unrighteousness which is committed on earth. You know all things, before they exist.
Revelation 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
(The phrase King of Kings and Lord of Lords is used 3x’s in the New Testament. The importance of this is that other than in the Book of Enoch this phrase is not found in the Old Testament.)
Enoch 9:2-3 The earth deprived of her children has cried even to the gate of heaven. And now to you, O you holy one of heaven, the souls of men complain, saying, Obtain Justice for us with the Most High. Then they said to their Lord, the King, You are Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings The throne of your glory is for ever and ever, and for ever and ever is your name sanctified and glorified. You are blessed and glorified.
1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.……
Enoch 3:1-3 All who are in the heavens know what is transacted there.They know that the heavenly luminaries change not their paths; that each rises and sets regularly, every one at its proper period, without transgressing the commands, which they have received. The behold the earth, and understand what is there transacted, from the beginning to the end of it.They see that every work of God is invariable in the period of its appearance. <P> Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Enoch 9:9-12 Thus has the whole earth been filled with blood and with iniquity. 10And now behold the souls of those who are dead, cry out. 11And complain even to the gate of heaven. 12Their groaning ascends; nor can they escape from the unrighteousness which is committed on earth. You know all things, before they exist.
Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Revelation 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Exodus 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Joel 1:18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.
John 11:33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled. <P> John 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave.
Romans 8:21-23 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
(I believe that God has left in men groaning and crying. These are largely unintelligible tongues, that enable the heart and spirit of man when overwhelmed to speak to or entreat God. The Baptism of the Spirit opens up to believers a much broader ability to pray directly to God than in groaning and crying, Paul says we with the impartation of God now pray in the spirit, sing in the spirit, intercede in the spirit, to travail in the spirit, and conduct warfare in the spirit. In another sphere there is speaking in diverse tongues and Interpretation of tongues. These are eluded to in the following passage in the book of Enoch.)
Enoch 14:1 This is the book of the words of righteousness, and of the reproof of the Watchers, who belong to the world, according to that which He, who is holy and great, commanded in the vision. I perceived in my dream, that I was now speaking with a tongue of flesh, and with my breath, which the Mighty One has put into the mouth of men, that they might converse with it.
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
(In the Old Testament there is little distinction made between the languages of men and of angels it is only in the book of Enoch that there is a clear distinction made between conversing with angels conversing in the tongue of men. It should further be noted that this is prior to the tower of Babel – and the Lord further dividing the language of men in order to slow down iniquity and corruption among men.)
Enoch 14:2 And understand with the heart. As he has created and given to men the power of comprehending the word of understanding, so has he created and given to me the power of reproving the Watchers, the offspring of heaven.
(This second verse would seem to refer of the gift of the Spirit -- if we couple this with the first verse about speaking in the tongues of men and of angels this would speak of a comprehension or the ability to interpret those words spoken – or a gift of the interpretation of tongues.)
(Chapter 14 is especially significant because the fallen angels entreat Enoch to pray for them that they might obtain mercy from God – and Enoch takes up their cause, composes a prayer that includes these fallen angels walk with God and Enoch reads it over and over until he falls asleep – Enoch then has a dreams where God instructs him. To me these actions of Enoch are the embodiment of 1 Corinthians 13:1 –Even to a clearly evil race Enoch shows love and mercy.)
Enoch 19 :6-7 But you (Angels) from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever. Therefore I made not wives for you, (The Angels) because, being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven.
Matthew 22:29-30 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Enoch 24:3 (The Tree of Life)Among these there was a tree of an unceasing smell; nor of those which were in Eden was there one of all the fragrant trees which smelt like this. Its leaf, its flower, and its bark never withered, and its fruit was beautiful. . . The fruit of the tree shall be given to the elect
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Enoch 24:2 Then Uriel, one of the holy angels who were with me, replied, This valley is the accursed of the accursed for ever. Here shall be collected all who utter with their mouths unbecoming language against God, and speak harsh things of His glory. Here shall they be collected. Here shall be their territory.
(This is the sin of blasphemeing the Holy Ghost) Enoch 37:1 This is the commencement of the word of wisdom, which I received to declare.
Enoch 40:3 Then I heard the voices of those upon the four sides magnifying the Lord of glory. The first voice blessed the Lord of spirits for ever and for ever. The second voice I heard blessing the Elect One, and the elect who suffer on account of the Lord of spirits. The third voice I heard petitioning and praying for those who dwell upon earth, and supplicate the name of the Lord of spirits. The fourth voice I heard expelling the impious angels, and prohibiting them from entering into the presence of the Lord of spirits, to prefer accusations against the inhabitants of the earth It would have been better for them, had they never been born.
2 Peter 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
Enoch 46:1-3 There I beheld the Ancient of days, whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was and why he accompanied the Ancient of days. 2He answered and said to me, This is the Son of man, to whom righteousness belongs; with whom righteousness has dwelt; who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed: for the Lord of spirits has chosen him; and his portion has surpassed all before the Lord of spirits in everlasting uprightness.
Revelation 1:13-14And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; Enoch 48:1 In that place I beheld a fountain of righteousness, which never failed, encircled by many springs of wisdom. Of these all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Enoch 60:3-5 The angel, who proceeded with me, said, These are the measures of the righteous; and cords shall the righteous bring, that they may trust in the name of the Lord of spirits for ever and ever. 4The elect shall begin to dwell with the elect. 5And these are the measures which shall be given to faith, and which shall strengthen the words of righteousness.
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Enoch 56:5 Henceforward shall the saints be told to seek in (From) heaven the secrets of righteousness, (and) the portion of faith; for like the sun has it arisen upon the earth,
Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, (from heaven) whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Enoch 48:2-5 In that hour was this Son of man invoked before the Lord of spirits, and his name in the presence of the Ancient of days. 3Before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of heaven were formed, his name was invoked in the presence of the Lord of spirits.A support shall He be for the righteous and the holy to lean upon, without falling; and he shall be the light of nations. 4He shall be the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All, who dwell on earth, shall fall down and worship before him; shall bless and glorify him, and sing praises to the name of the Lord of spirits. 5Therefore the Elect and the Concealed One existed in his presence, before the world was created, and for ever.
Enoch 61:10 for from the beginning the Son of man existed
John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. Enoch 48A:1 Wisdom is poured forth like water, and glory fails not before him for ever and ever; for potent is he in all the secrets of righteousness.
1 Corinthians 2:7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the secret wisdom of God, we speak God's wisdom in a mystery. which was hidden in former times, though he made it for our benefit before the world began.
Colossians 2:3 In him lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Enoch 48A: 2-3 the Elect One 2stands before the Lord of spirits; and his glory is for ever and ever; and his power from generation to generation. 3With him dwells the spirit of intellectual wisdom, the spirit of instruction and of power,
Enoch 51:6-9 In those days men shall not be saved by gold and by silver. 7Nor shall they have it power in their to secure themselves, and to flee. 8There shall be neither iron for was, nor a coat of mail for the breast. 9Copper shall be useless; useless also that which neither rusts nor consumes away; and lead shall not be coveted.
James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days
Enoch 61:18 The saints and the elect have arisen from the earth, have left off to depress their countenances, and have been clothed with the garment of life. That garment of life is with the Lord of spirits, in whose presence your garment shall not wax old, nor shall your glory diminish.
Enoch 68:9-13 The name of the fourth is Penemue: he discovered to the children of men bitterness and sweetness; 10And pointed out to them every secret of their wisdom. 11He taught men to understand writing, and the use of ink and paper. 12Therefore numerous have been those who have gone astray from every period of the world, even to this day. 13For men were not born for this, thus with pen and with ink to confirm their faith;
Enoch 83:1 I lifted up my hands in righteousness, and blessed the holy, and the Great One. I spoke with the breath of my mouth, and with a tongue of flesh, which God has formed for all the sons of mortal men, that with it they may speak; giving them breath, a mouth, and a tongue to converse with.
1 Timothy 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
(And what does Enoch pray with his holy hands raised?)
Enoch 83:2-4 Blessed are you, O Lord, the King, great and powerful in your greatness, Lord of all the creatures of heaven, King of kings, God of the whole world, whose reign, whose kingdom, and whose majesty endure for ever and ever. From generation to generation shall your dominion exist. All the heavens are your throne forever, and all the earth your footstool forever and forever. 4For you have made them, and over all you reign. No act whatsoever exceeds your power. With your wisdom is unchangeable; nor from your throne and from your presence is it ever averted. You know all things, see and hear them; nor is anything concealed from you; for you perceive all things.
Enoch 91:3 ]Let the righteous man arise from slumber; let him arise, and proceed in the path of righteousness, in all its paths; and let him advance in goodness and eternal clemency. Mercy shall be showed to the righteous man; upon him shall be conferred integrity and power forever. In goodness and in righteousness shall he exist, and shall walk in everlasting light; but sin shall perish in eternal darkness, nor be seen from that time forward for evermore.
Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
1 Corinthians 15:34 wake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. Enoch 93:7 Those, too, who acquire gold and silver, shall justly and suddenly perish. Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed; because you have not remembered the Most High in the days of your prosperity.
James 5:1-3 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
Enoch 96:6-8 Woe to you who squander silver and gold, not obtained in righteousness, and say, We are rich, possess wealth, and have acquired everything which we can desire. 7Now then will we do whatsoever we are disposed to do; for we have amassed silver; our barns are full, and the husbandmen of our families are like overflowing water. 8Like water shall your falsehood pass away; for your wealth will not be permanent, but shall suddenly ascend from you, because you have obtained it all iniquitously; to extreme malediction shall you be delivered up.
Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: Enoch 104:2 And that remuneration (gathering)shall take place over the whole earth; for I and my Son will for ever hold communion with them in the paths of uprightness, while they are still alive. Peace shall be yours. Rejoice, children of integrity, in the truth.(The gathering here is clearly the millenial gathering)
John 6:53-58 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. Enoch 13:6 Beseeching me to write for them a memorial of supplication, that they might obtain forgiveness; and that I might make the memorial of their prayer ascend up before the God of heaven; because they could not themselves thenceforwards address him, nor raise up their eyes to heaven on account of the disgraceful offence for which they were judged.
Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. Enoch 37:2 And let not us, who come after, obstruct the beginning of wisdom.Until the present period never has there been given before the Lord of spirits that which I have received, wisdom according the capacity of my intellect, and according to the pleasure of the Lord of spirits; that which I have received from him, a portion of life eternal.
(Obstruct = Alter, or stop up, or obscure, Jesus accused the Pharisees of this very crime.)
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered
Enoch 38:2-5 When righteousness shall be manifested in the presence of the righteous themselves, who will be elected for their good works duly weighed by the Lord of spirits; and when the light of the righteous and the elect, who dwell on earth, shall be manifested; where will the habitation of sinners be? And where the place of rest for those who have rejected the Lord of spirits? It would have been better for them, had they never been born.
Romans 8:18-19 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. Enoch 39:1[In those days shall the elect and holy race descend from the upper heavens. (This is referring to the second coming and the millenial reign of Christ)
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself (And the elect and the holy race) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God (This occurs at the millenial reign.)
Enoch 39:4-12 There I saw another vision; I saw the habitations and resting places of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their resting places with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, and praying for the sons of men; while righteousness like water flowed before them, and mercy like dew was scattered over the earth. And thus shall it be with them for ever and for ever.At that time my eyes beheld the dwelling of the elect, of truth, faith, and righteousness. 6Countless shall be the number of the holy and the elect, in the presence of God for ever and for ever.7Their residence I beheld under the wings of the Lord of spirits. All the holy and the elect sung before him, in appearance like a blaze of fire; their mouths being full of blessings, and their lips glorifying the name of the Lord of spirits. And righteousness incessantly dwelt before him. 8There was I desirous of remaining, and my soul longed for that habitation There was my antecedent inheritance (This is the foretaste of our inheritance Paul speaks of.) ; for thus had I prevailed before the Lord of spirits. At that time I glorified and extolled the name of the Lord of spirits with blessing and with praise; for he has established it with blessing and with praise, according to his own good pleasure. 10That place long did my eyes contemplate. I blessed and said, Blessed be he, blessed from the beginning for ever. In the beginning, before the world was created, and without end is his knowledge. 11What is this world? Of every existing generation those shall bless you who do not spiritually sleep but stand before your glory, blessing, glorifying, exalting you, and saying, The holy, holy, Lord of spirits, fills the whole world of spirits. 12There my eyes beheld all who, without sleeping, stand before him and bless him, saying, Blessed be you, and blessed be the name of God for ever and for ever. Then my countenance became changed, until I was incapable of seeing.(There are numerous verses in the new testament about us being changed and receving a glorious body)
John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.]In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(The translators have intentionally misinterpreted the word dwelling place or habitation as the carnal, earthly and lust of the flesh, and love of the things of the world word “Mansion” From the book of Enoch we can clearly see that this passage is not speaking of Mansions” of becoming wealthy landowners and possessing streets of gold in heaven. This is about dwelling with Christ and God.)
Also Holy Holy Holy the whole earth is full of his glory --is in this passage
Isaiah 6:2-4 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Further David speaks of being under the shadow of his wing.
Psalm 17:8 Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,
Psalm 36:7 How excellent is thy loving kindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.
Psalm 57:1 Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast . (Moses was to build the tabernacle to show heavenly things. Now I see that the Holy of Holies was to be where the elect were. Therefore was David not struck dead nor the singers and people he appointed, and therefore could have the prophets and any that were Holy before the lord entered the Holy of Holies.)
Enoch 40:5 The second voice I heard blessing the Elect One, and the elect who suffer on account of the Lord of spirits. (A reference to Christ's suffering)
Enoch 41:6 The course of the moon’s path to the righteous is light, but to sinners it is darkness; in the name of the Lord of spirits, who created a division between light and darkness, and, separating the spirits of men, strengthened the spirits of the righteous in the name of his own righteousness. 7Nor does the angel prevent this, neither is he endowed with the power of preventing it;
John 1:4-5 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 3:18-20 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Enoch 42:1-2 Wisdom found not a place on earth where she could inhabit; her dwelling therefore is in heaven. 2 Wisdom went forth to dwell among the sons of men, but she obtained not a habitation. Wisdom returned to her place, and seated herself in the midst of the angels, But iniquity went forth after her return, who unwillingly found a habitation, and resided among them, as rain in the desert, and as a dew in a thirsty land.
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Enoch 60:14-15 14 Shall raise their united voice; shall bless, glorify, praise, and exalt with the spirit of faith, with the spirit of wisdom and patience, with the spirit of mercy, with the spirit of judgment and peace, and with the spirit of benevolence; all shall say with united voice; Blessed is He; and the name of the Lord of spirits shall be blessed for ever and for ever; all, who sleep not, shall bless it in heaven above. 15All the holy in heaven shall bless it; all the elect who dwell in the garden of life; and every spirit of light, who is capable of blessing, glorifying, exalting, and praising your holy name; and every mortal man, more than the powers of heaven, shall glorify and bless your name for ever and ever.
(Spirit of Faith, Spirit of Patience, Spirit of Wisdom, Spirit of Mercy, Spirit of Judgment Spirit of Peace, and the Spirit of Benevolence, = The Seven Spirits of God -- Referenced in the Book of Revelation)
Enoch 61:2-3 2The Lord of spirits sat upon the throne of his glory. 3And the spirit of righteousness was poured out over him. The word of his mouth shall destroy all the sinners and all the ungodly, who shall perish at his presence.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Enoch 61:8-10 One portion of them shall look upon another. They shall be astonished, and shall humble their countenance; And trouble shall seize them, when they shall behold this Son of woman sitting upon the throne of his glory. Then shall the kings, the princes, and all who possess the earth, glorify him who has dominion over all things, him who was concealed; for from the beginning the Son of man existed in secret, whom the Most High preserved in the presence of his power, and revealed to the elect. (Jesus Christ) 2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; (This is a reference to entire chapters the book of Enoch where in graphic detail the sins of 200 angels that cohabited with women are discussed – their utter corruption of man, their offspring of flesh and spirit and their destruction, and the judgment that fell upon these angels.)
Enoch 70:13-15 Then I fell upon my face, while all my flesh was dissolved, and my spirit became changed. 14 (Being changed) I cried out with a loud voice, with a powerful spirit, blessing, glorifying, and exalting. 15And those blessings, which proceeded from my mouth, became acceptable in the presence of the Ancient of days.
(This is another passage telling us of Enoch experiencing worshipping God in Spirit an in truth.)
John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
(Note that only after this change in Enoch’s spirit occurred was he able to cry out in a loud voice with a powerful spirit blessing glorifying and exalting that was acceptable to the Lord. Or songs worship and praise fall woefully short – our praise and worship are carnal and would seem to primarily benefit ourselves – adjusting our spirit so we can receive of God’s presence.) Enoch 79:2 And all things have I revealed to you. You see the sun, the moon, and those which conduct the stars of heaven, which cause all their operations, seasons, and arrivals to return. 3In the days of sinners the years shall be shortened. 4Their seed shall be backward in their prolific soil; and everything done on earth shall be subverted, and disappear in its season. The rain shall be restrained, and heaven shall stand still. 5In those days the fruits of the earth shall be late, and not flourish in their season; and in their season the fruits of the trees shall be withholden. 6The moon shall change its laws, and not be seen at its proper period. But in those days shall heaven be seen; and barrenness shall take place in the borders of the great chariots in the west. Heaven shall shine more than when illuminated by the orders of light; while many chiefs among the stars of authority shall err, perverting their ways and works. 7Those shall not appear in their season, who commanded them, and all the classes of the stars shall be shut up against sinners. 8The thoughts of those who dwell on the earth shall transgress within them; and they shall be perverted in all their ways. 9They shall transgress, and think themselves (85) gods; while evil shall be multiplied among them. 10And punishment shall come upon them, so that all of them shall be destroyed.
Isaiah 13:9-11 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Ezekiel 32:6-8 I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee. And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
Joel 2:9-11 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Matthew 24:28-30 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Revelation 8:6-13 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Enoch 80:6 At that time I said, Blessed is the man, who shall die righteous and good, against whom no catalogue of crime has been written, and with whom iniquity is not found.
Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Enoch 80:8 Explain everything to Mathusala your son; and inform all your children, that no flesh shall be justified before the Lord; for he is their Creator.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Enoch 96:23 Woe to you who frustrate the word of the righteous; for to you there shall be no hope of life.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Enoch 96 24-25 Woe to you who write down the word of falsehood, and the word of the wicked; for their falsehood they record, that they may hear and not forget folly. To them there shall be no peace; but they shall surely die suddenly.
Enoch 104:7-9 Now will I point out a mystery: Many sinners shall turn and transgress against the word of uprightness. They shall speak evil things; they shall utter falsehood; execute great undertakings; and compose books in their own words. But when they shall write all my words correctly in their own languages, 9They shall neither change or diminish them; but shall write them all correctly; all which from the first I have uttered concerning them.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work --
Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Enoch 104:10-11Another mystery also I point out. To the righteous and the wise shall be given books of joy, of integrity, and of great wisdom. To them shall books be given, in which they shall believe; And in which they shall rejoice. And all the righteous shall be rewarded, who from these shall acquire the knowledge of every upright path.
1 Timothy 3:16 [/B]And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: --
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2020 15:22:54 GMT -5
Happy Shabbath Dave
The writings of the book of Enoch are interesting, thanks for the share Dave, and the presentation. interesting parallels.
SO I did some reading of this book on the www.
Why does Book of Enoch say Michael is a holy angel?
Then Michael, one of the holy and glorious angels who were with me, and one who presided over them, answered, (book of Enoch chapter 24)
Da 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
Why does Daniel call Michael our prince? A prince is a ruler, why should an angel rule over humans?
The only ruler ruling over humans commanded by GOD is in Daniel 7
Da 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him:
This Son of Man, is not an angel, but a reference to Yashua.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel,
Here Michael is given an action title. Commander of angelic armies.
The book has an error already, with Michael.
So how did this book serve for thousands of years? Who copied it over and over?
Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2020 16:20:16 GMT -5
The content, particularly detailed descriptions of fallen angels, would also be a reason for rejection from the Hebrew canon at this period – as illustrated by the comments of Trypho the Jew when debating with Justin Martyr on this subject: "The utterances of God are holy, but your expositions are mere contrivances, as is plain from what has been explained by you; nay, even blasphemies, for you assert that angels sinned and revolted from God."[12] ^ Justin Martyr. "Dialogue 79". Dialogue with Trypho.
From Dialogue withTrypho: The utterances of God are holy, but your expositions are mere contrivances, as is plain from what has been explained by you; nay, even blasphemies, for you assert that angels sinned and revolted from God.
Justin: I admire, sir, this piety of yours; and I pray that you may entertain the same disposition towards Him to whom angels are recorded to minister, as Daniel says; for [one] like the Son of man is led to the Ancient of days, and every kingdom is given to Him for ever and ever. But that you may know, sir, that it is not our audacity which has induced us to adopt this exposition, which you reprehend, I shall give you evidence from Isaiah himself; for he affirms that evil angels have dwelt and do dwell in Tanis, in Egypt. These are [his] words: 'Woe to the rebellious children! Thus says the Lord, You have taken counsel, but not through Me; and [made] agreements, but not through My Spirit, to add sins to sins; who have sinned in going down to Egypt (but they have not inquired at Me), that they may be assisted by Pharaoh, and be covered with the shadow of the Egyptians. For the shadow of Pharaoh shall be a disgrace to you, and a reproach to those who trust in the Egyptians; for the princes in Tanis are evil angels. In vain will they labour for a people which will not profit them by assistance, but [will be] for a disgrace and a reproach [to them].' Isaiah 30:1-5 And, further, Zechariah tells, as you yourself have related, that the devil stood on the right hand of Joshua the priest, to resist him; and [the Lord] said, 'The Lord, who has taken Jerusalem, rebuke you.' Zechariah 3:1 And again, it is written in Job, Job 1:6 as you said yourself, how that the angels came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them. And we have it recorded by Moses in the beginning of Genesis, that the serpent beguiled Eve, and was cursed. And we know that in Egypt there were magicians who emulated the mighty power displayed by God through the faithful servant Moses. And you are aware that David said, 'The gods of the nations are demons.'
Tertullian,[30] who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ.[31] However, later Fathers denied the canonicity of the book, and some even considered the Epistle of Jude uncanonical because it refers to an apocryphal work.[3][32]
Eleven Aramaic-language fragments of the Book of Enoch were found in cave 4 of Qumran in 1948[39]
Margaret Barker argues, "Enoch is the writing of a very conservative group whose roots go right back to the time of the First Temple".[48]
The main peculiar aspects of the Enochic Judaism are the following:
⦁ the idea of the origin of the evil caused by the fallen angels, who came on the earth to unite with human women. These fallen angels are considered ultimately responsible for the spread of evil and impurity on the earth;⦁ [46]:90
The main peculiar aspects of the not-Qumranic units of 1 Enoch are the following:
⦁ a Messiah called "Son of Man", with divine attributes, generated before the creation, who will act directly in the final judgment and sit on a throne of glory (1 Enoch 46:1–4, 48:2–7, 69:26–29)⦁ [14]:562–563
This first section of the Book of Enoch describes the fall of the Watchers, the angels who fathered the Nephilim (cf. the bene Elohim, Genesis 6:1–2) and narrates the travels of Enoch in the heavens.
The first section of the book depicts the interaction of the fallen angels with mankind; Sêmîazâz compels the other 199 fallen angels to take human wives to "beget us children".
Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel appeal to God to judge the inhabitants of the world and the fallen angels.[74]
Rob: "Does this Book group fallen angels as intentionally designed to sin, or as fallen angels sinning because they freely choose to sin? What does the book say about this idea?
And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azâzêl: to him ascribe all sin."
God gave Gabriel instructions concerning the Nephilim and the imprisonment of the fallen angels: The Lord commands Michael to bind the fallen angels.
And the Lord said unto Michael: "Go, bind Semjâzâ and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness.
The Book of Parables uses the expression Son of Man for the eschatological protagonist, who is also called “Righteous One”, “Chosen One”, and “Messiah”, and sits on the throne of glory in the final judgment.[75]
The year was composed from 364 days, divided in four equal seasons of ninety-one days each. Each season was composed of three equal months of thirty days, plus an extra day at the end of the third month. The whole year was thus composed of exactly fifty-two weeks, and every calendar day occurred always on the same day of the week. Each year and each season started always on Wednesday, which was the fourth day of the creation narrated in Genesis, the day when the lights in the sky, the seasons, the days and the years were created.[86]:94–95
Rob: "interesting idea.
Some of the fallen angels that are given in 1 Enoch have other names, such as Rameel ('morning of God'), who becomes Azazel, and is also called Gadriel ('wall of God') in Chapter 68. Another example is that Araqiel ('Earth of God') becomes Aretstikapha ('world of distortion') in Chapter 68.
Azaz, as in Azazel, means strength, so the name Azazel can refer to 'strength of God'. But the sense in which it is used most probably means 'impudent' (showing strength towards), which results in 'arrogant to God'. This is also a key point in modern thought that Azazel is Satan.[2][3] Also important in this identification is the fact that the original name Rameel, is very similar in meaning to the word Lucifer ('Morning Star') which is a common Latin name of Satan in Christianity
It's make you weary Dave, pondering confusion.
I would rather spend my day praising GOD and getting to know Jesus better. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 15, 2020 14:02:42 GMT -5
Why does Book of Enoch say Michael is a holy angel?Then Michael, one of the holy and glorious angels who were with me, and one who presided over them, answered, (book of Enoch chapter 24) Archie-angel = First angel – angel of the first orderDa 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. Each angel has specific duties and areas of responsibility
Michael – God’s defender Gab-briel - God’s messenger of child birth Raphael – Book of Torbit – God’s doctor Uriel - 2 Esdras.- God’s record keeperBook of Enoch Metatron – Book of Enoch – God’s overseer Azazyel. – the leader of the bane elohiym (also Islamic angel of death) Shemyaza – one of the bane elohiym Why does Daniel call Michael our prince? A prince is a ruler, why should an angel rule over humans? There are many angels with many different responsibilities You guardian angel – for example – has specific duties
Each reference to Gab-briel in scripture has to do with child birth Da 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: OK – has this happened – NOTherefore this is Daniels prophesy for the future This Son of Man, is not an angel, but a reference to Yashua. Sure and the New heaven and earth New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia, Church Fathers, Summa www.newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm Dialogue with Trypho (Justin Martyr)And you are aware that David said, 'The gods of the nations are demons.'Look what you have done here – this is so importantI discovered this for myself and had to wake up from my programming You claim to be and SDA Protestant – removed from Catholicism But for deeper study – where did you turn – to the “Fathers of the Catholic Church” for guidanceProtestantism is just a liberal Catholicism – same scriptural doctrine So you offer “Roman EDIT” as proof Enoch is a bad thing? Even Justin Martyr admits – all the nations of this world have an archon assigned to them As in the ‘sar’ prince of PersiaThere are also ‘sars’ princes of China, Japan, USA, England, Russia, etc, etc We are not told this directly – except that each archon has a domain of their own – an area that they are in charge of – to some it is land –Persia. Just as some angels are – ‘guardian angels’ – and some are for battel - Michael Tertullian,[30] who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ.[31] However, later Fathers denied the canonicity of the book, and some even considered the Epistle of Jude uncanonical because it refers to an apocryphal work.[3][32] YES! – Tertullian was a Christian Enoch is the first text in existence that speaks direct to the coming Messiah / Christ The Jews didn’t like it because it confirms Christ as the Son of Man The Catholic Church doesn’t like it because it exposes the archon for who they are (remember – the Roman edit was designed to eliminate the archon from religious reality)Eleven Aramaic-language fragments of the Book of Enoch were found in cave 4 of Qumran in 1948[39]Do not for one minute think – the Book of Enoch survives only in fragments The Book of Enoch was found in 4 of the caves in pieces Cave 4 was fragments – yes But also in the caves were – the Book of Watchers – The Book of Giants – which are parts of the Book of Enoch
The oldest complete Enoch text is kept in the Coptic Broader Canon alongside the Book of Jubilees Cicra – 325BC my copy says in the introductionMargaret Barker argues, "Enoch is the writing of a very conservative group whose roots go right back to the time of the First Temple".[48] FIRST TEMPLE PERIORD when Judaism was at its peak YES! Jewish thought at the time when Judaism was at its very peak
The main peculiar aspects of the Enochic Judaism are the following: ⦁ the idea of the origin of the evil caused by the fallen angels, who came on the earth to unite with human women. These fallen angels are considered ultimately responsible for the spread of evil and impurity on the earth;⦁ [46]:90This is Roman edit – 1- the term ‘Fallen Angels’ is nowhere in the text – First you must assume angels fell – now with this idea in their heads they read the textWhere does the falling angel come from? Luk 10:18 And Yeshua said to them, “I was watching satan fall like lightning from heaven. One being – the devil = all the archon fell – it is an assumption What we know from Gnostic Literature – one Archon was created with error for a brain That archon was hidden away in the darkness and there it multiplied Just where was this realm of the Archon – physical creation - earthOn/in earth the archon had free reign over the land – until Adam and Eve were introduced This was their home first ⦁ a Messiah called "Son of Man", with divine attributes, generated before the creation, who will act directly in the final judgment and sit on a throne of glory (1 Enoch 46:1–4, 48:2–7, 69:26–29)⦁ [14]:562–563YES! – Enoch was a Christian – the redeemer will be sent to save mankind toward the end-of-daysThis first section of the Book of Enoch describes the fall of the Watchers, the angels who fathered the Nephilim (cf. the bene Elohim, Genesis 6:1–2) and narrates the travels of Enoch in the heavens. Be careful here and look at this with open eyes Catholicism says – the fall of the angels happed in heaven – a war in heaven - from heaven to earth You and I have spent a lot of time on this war in heaven and the archon ejected to earth Enoch says NOTHING about thisTHE BOOK OF ENOCH. - CHAP. I.1. THE word of the blessing of Enoch, how he blessed the elect and the righteous, who were to exist in the time of trouble; rejecting 1 all the wicked and ungodly. Enoch, a righteous man, who was with God, answered and spoke, while his eyes were open, and while he saw a holy vision in the heavens. 2 This the angels showed me. 2. From them I heard all things, and understood what I saw; that which will not take place in this generation, but in a generation which is to succeed at a distant period, on account of the elect. Not only did he hear – but understood - gnosis Time is not linear – Enoch saw the future3. Upon their account I spoke and conversed with him, who will go forth from his habitation, the Holy and Mighty One, the God of the world: Enoch says this face – in heavens 8, 9, and 10 – 3 dimensionally Moses was tols no man can see God’s face and live – So who is the 3D face = the 3D image of God = Christ4. Who will hereafter tread upon Mount Sinai; appear with his hosts; and be manifested in the strength of his power from heaven. God spoke from Mt Sinai5. All shall be afraid, and the Watchers be terrified. Exo 20:18 All the people witnessed the thundering and the lightning, and the sound of the shofar, and the mountain smoking. When the people saw it, they trembled and stood far off. Exo 20:19 So they said to Moses, “You, speak to us, and we will listen, but do not let God speak to us, or we will die.” Job 38:7 my attempt at a Hebrew translation All of the morning stars shouted with praise – the bane elohiym cried in alarm6. Great fear and trembling shall seize them, even to the ends of the earth. The lofty mountains shall be troubled, and the exalted hills depressed, melting like a honeycomb in the flame. The earth shall be immerged, and all things which are in it perish; while judgment shall come upon all, even upon all the righteous: Where are we talking about here heaven – NO – we are talking about life on/in earth? 7. But to them shall he give peace: he shall preserve the elect, and towards them exercise clemency. This is a promise to man – Adam and Eve – on earth8. Then shall all belong to God; be happy and blessed; and the splendour of the Godhead shall illuminate them. CHAP. II. Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal 1 for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him. CARNAL – this is talking about life on earth – not angels in heavenCHAP. III. 1. All who are in the heavens know what is transacted 1 there. 2. They know that the heavenly luminaries change not their paths; that each rises and sets regularly, every one at its proper period, without transgressing the commands which they have received. They behold the earth, and understand what is there transacted, from the beginning to the end of it. 3. They see that every work of God is invariable in the period of its appearance. They behold summer and winter: perceiving that the whole earth is full of water; and that the cloud, the dew, and the rain refresh it. The angels are in full awareness – they can see us and everything we do Things in the heaven do not change - they keep their order No angels switching sides to become a god on his ownCHAP. IV. They consider and behold every tree, how it appears to wither, and every leaf to fall off, except of fourteen trees, which are not deciduous; which wait from the old, to the appearance of the new leaf, for two or three winters. Negentropy – followed by – entropy It is the cycle of things age upon ageCHAP. V. Again they consider the days of summer, that the sun is upon it at its very beginning; while you seek for a covered and shady spot on account of the burning sun; while the earth is scorched up with fervid heat, and you become incapable of walking either upon the ground or upon the rocks in consequence of that heat. What is the commentary on Chapter 5We thought the grass was greener on the other side – but it turned out to be more unpleasant Eve choose the fruit over obedience – she broke her vow of obedience (if she had one) 3D nature looks beautiful from a distance – people look at postcards of Colorado and want to move here – after they are here they realize those views are 300 miles away in every direction and between them are no jobs. – the snow is too deep – the roads are not plowed – Oh ya it gets below zero F at night – and this ground will not grow a healthy crop The view from a distance looks nice – reality rarely is And Eve took a bite – this is the trap of 3D carnal existence – it appeals to the yester ra that fuels our survival instinct CHAP. VI. 1. They consider how the trees, when they put forth their green leaves, become covered, and produce fruit; understanding everything, and knowing that He who lives for ever does all these things for you: All thing are of God – there is no other creator2. That the works at the beginning of every existing year, that all his works, are subservient to him, and invariable; yet as God has appointed, so are all things brought to pass. All thing are of God – there is no other creator3. They see, too, how the seas and the rivers together complete their respective operations: All thing are of God – there is no other creator4. But you endure not patiently, nor fulfil the commandments of the Lord; but you transgress and calumniate his greatness; and malignant are the words in your polluted mouths against his Majesty. 5. Ye withered in heart, no peace shall be to you! 6. Therefore your days shall you curse, and the years of your lives shall perish; perpetual execration shall be multiplied, and you shall not obtain mercy. 7. In those days shall you resign your peace with the eternal maledictions of all the righteous, and sinners shall perpetually execrate you; Gen 3:15 – life become hard and painful8. Shall execrate you with the ungodly. Gen 3:15 – the Contest begins – Eve’seed – satan’s seed9. The elect shall possess light, joy, and peace; and they shall inherit the earth. The promise of John 3:1610. But you, ye unholy, shall be accursed. 11. Then shall wisdom be given to the elect, all of whom shall live, and not again transgress by impiety or pride; but shall humble themselves, possessing prudence, and shall not repeat transgression. 12. They shall not be condemned the whole period of their lives, nor die in torment and indignation; but the sum of their days 1 shall be completed, and they shall grow old in peace; while the years of their happiness shall be multiplied with joy, and with peace, for ever, the whole duration of their existence. All of this refers to mankindCHAP. VII. [SECT. II. 2] 1. It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. 2. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children. 3. Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise; 4. And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime. Nowhere does this text say – the bane elohiym came to earth to have the women The bane elohiym were already here – this was their land before mankindWhat is the commentary of Enoch in the Jewish Kabbalah = Mortality allows yester ra to dominate As spirits – man or angels are in awareness of the heavens As man – we become limited to the view – and forget, because 3D Carnal is tangible and appeal to the 3D corporeal creature – gratification / satisfaction
The first section of the book depicts the interaction of the fallen angels with mankind; Sêmîazâz compels the other 199 fallen angels to take human wives to "beget us children". YES! – it doesn’t take long or the archon in physical form to succumb to the physical – to desire the physical – to lust for the physicalMichael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel appeal to God to judge the inhabitants of the world and the fallen angels.[74] YES! – the angels complained – unfair – these archon are breaking the rules But this complaint does not come until the time of Noah No man was without corruption save Noah
Mat 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. In Enoch – what does God say – does he say anything after all this has happened?Enoch, CHAP IX 9. Thus has the whole earth been filled with blood and with iniquity. 10. And now behold the souls of those who are dead, cry out. 11. And complain even to the gate of heaven. 12 Their groaning ascends; nor can they escape from the unrighteousness which is committed on earth. Thou knowest all things, before they exist. 13. Thou knowest these things, and what has been done by them; yet thou dost not speak to us.Even with the complaints – God says nothing14. What on account of these things ought we to do to them? CHAP. X. 1. Then the Most High, the Great and Holy One spoke, 2. And sent Arsayalalyur to the son of Lamech, 3. Saying, Say to him in my name, Conceal thyself. 4. Then explain to him the consummation which is about to take place; for all the earth shall perish; the waters of a deluge shall come over the whole earth, and all things which are in it shall be destroyed. 5. And now teach him how he may escape, and how his seed may remain in all the earth. Rob: "Does this Book group fallen angels as intentionally designed to sin, or as fallen angels sinning because they freely choose to sin? What does the book say about this idea?Enoch says nothing about the conduct of the First Archon in the heavens Enoch only speak to the bane elohiym after they become corporeal - earthyAnd the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azâzêl: to him ascribe all sin." These bane elohiym taught mankind knowledge – heavenly knowledge Give manking a nuckear Bomb and sooner or later he will blow up the world God gave Gabriel instructions concerning the Nephilim and the imprisonment of the fallen angels: The Lord commands Michael to bind the fallen angels. And the Lord said unto Michael: "Go, bind Semjâzâ and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness.They are the Gimori and are kept in the chains and prison on the fitht heaven – awaiting to be released back upon the land – Rev 9The year was composed from 364 days, divided in four equal seasons of ninety-one days each. Each season was composed of three equal months of thirty days, plus an extra day at the end of the third month. The whole year was thus composed of exactly fifty-two weeks, and every calendar day occurred always on the same day of the week. Each year and each season started always on Wednesday, which was the fourth day of the creation narrated in Genesis, the day when the lights in the sky, the seasons, the days and the years were created.[86]:94–95 Rob: "interesting idea. The Jewish lunar calandar – now you know it originSome of the fallen angels that are given in 1 Enoch have other names, such as Rameel ('morning of God'), who becomes Azazel, and is also called Gadriel ('wall of God') in Chapter 68. Another example is that Araqiel ('Earth of God') becomes Aretstikapha ('world of distortion') in Chapter 68. The translator calls the fallen angels – the text does not – just bane elohiymAzaz, as in Azazel, means strength, so the name Azazel can refer to 'strength of God'. But the sense in which it is used most probably means 'impudent' (showing strength towards), which results in 'arrogant to God'. This is also a key point in modern thought that Azazel is Satan.[2][3] Also important in this identification is the fact that the original name Rameel, is very similar in meaning to the word Lucifer ('Morning Star') which is a common Latin name of Satan in Christianity It's make you weary Dave, pondering confusion. Let go of other peoples words and list to the texy This angel’s function = arrogance – assigned to him by the Creator
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