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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 14:26:38 GMT -5
Greetings Dave D Jesus can a legion of this archon into a herd of pigs Are these the beautiful angels that sing praises to God in heaven? – NO They belong to a second group
R A legion refers to many of the angels that left their beginnings. All the same kind of creature: ie angels
These angels belong to a second group BECAUSE THESE ANGELS LEFT THEIR FIRST BEGINNINGS. Jude says that.
Now I asked you specifically, where in NT or OT Scripture do these Angels get created as moral agents of RA?
Not a single text anywhere.... These angels left their first beginnings, because they chose too (free will) because they sinned (result of free will) so God kicked them out of heaven, some into chains, and some were free to remain only on the earth.
D Why do you keep saying moral ra – where is your evidence to support your attitude R You do not accept a supreme GOD would live by His own supreme law You say only man has to live by certain laws written by GOD for man.
The royal law is a supreme law describing love functions as TOV, not RA. And since GOD is LOVE, this implies by logical laws of association, that GOD must be defined by those laws describing love, but you do not agree with this idea, whereas I do.
Maybe the version in Exodus was worded for man specifically, but the principles of LOVE have to be supreme laws even GOD must obey.
BUt you say GOD murders, kills, and does such things. These things are called transgressions of love, and I term these moral RA, to help distinguish between , friction, entropy and shadows of darkness, which is natural RA.
But you don't like this idea either, because if you obey GOD, and told tells you to murder people, that is not a sin, according to you.
QUESTION: Does GOD expect man to obey LAW of obey GOD? which is primary? What happens if GOD asks you to do something against His Laws? Which comes first for obedience? So GOD is testing you?
Eze 4:12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. 13 And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.
The prophet here's these words of YHWH, but does not obey them.
Eze 4:14 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth. 15 Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.
Notice than, man should obey LAWs primarily.
However you define obeying what GOD says is primary, even above the definitions of love.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
We are not to obey another prophet preaching another gospel, or even listen to another Jesus, we are primarily to follow torah, the words of torah.
This suggests to me that LAWS are more than than even if GOD asks to you to do something against His laws.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Why was this angel walking up and down the earth?
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude writes a poetry parallel of type. First humans are saved from land of Egypt, a simile of sin. Only those who LOVE GOD correctly are saved, those that do not support GOD have their breath of living removed from them.
Second this same, follows for a different creature, the angels. Many angels left their first beginnings and are reserved ujnto judgement. Why because they do not support GOD.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
These angels do support there is GOD, but these angels do not support GOD daily flowing through their lives. Why is that? What causes a creature to no longer support GOD daily?
The only thing mentioned for this, is sin "ie" missing. If a creature misses relationship to GOD, they have left their first beginnings, and this is termed in Scripture sin. Again Jude parallels this to man, in Sodom for example.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Why does GOD say Job avoids RA? in dealings with this opposing angel?
Because by logic association, this angel has to be doing RA, thus by definition RA opposes GOD. Hence why this angel is term "hey" a person "satan" a opponent, or oppose.
The rescue of man from the land of Egypt, must oppose GOD in some way, because GOD rescued Israel from this land.
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him,
Why did this angel who is an opponent to GOD make this comment? Why does GOD hedge people, protect people? From whom?
From rulers who are causing the land of Egypt to be a land of RA. Or Sodom to be a land of RA, or earth to be a planet of RA. But Job chooses not to associate with RA, but chooses GOD. So God protects Him, from whom? This very angel who is described in Hebrew as an one who opposes.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. The angel who opposes, says put forth thy hand and touch all he hath.
Can we be certain this angel tells truth, or makes lies? Can GOD disobey His own torah rules of salvation?
Joh 15:20 If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you;
Ps 69:4 They that hate me without a cause ..: they that would destroy me, Who is they?
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning,
Notice the same word Jude uses "beginning" added with other words from Jesus, a murderer. So this angel who opposes, is also termed a devil, and is also a murderer, appears to YHWH in a meeting, asking GOD to remove his protection form whom?
The murderer speaking to God.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.
So you say this angel who is written as "oppose in noun sense", also termed a devil angel, and a murderer from the beginnings, since He left his first beginings, Jude says, seems to be "obeying God" ??
Your reading "obedience" into the passage, whereas I don't see this concept.
When GOD withdraws his protection of salvation, the oppose angel takes over to murder you some more.
An example of this idea:
Nu 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
If you choose to oppose GOD of His leaders, God withdraws His protect of salvation.
But you see salvation as a one off event primarily? Salvation is a life time process too.
Nu 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people,
Notice the cause the effect.
Action and re-action.
But you do not see two burning beings on the pole of salvation, you only see ONE symbol. The symbol was pointing towards TWO rulers over your soul, not one. Where is the Hebrew word "obey"
Ge 27:8 Now therefore, my son <ben>, obey <shama`> my voice <qowl> according to that which <'aher> I command <tsavah> thee
Jeff Benner
V) ( Sh-MAh) — Hear: To hear as well as to respond to what is heard. [Hebrew and Aramaic] [freq. 1168] (vf: Paal, Niphal, Hiphil, Piel) |kjv: hear, obey, publish, understand, obedient, diligently, show, sound, declare, discern, noise, perceive, tell, report| {str: 8085, 8086}
I cannot find a Hebrew word that means "obey" , all I read is "hear" maybe "guard"
Where is this idea of "obey" do you have a Hebrew verse?
I would imagine the only reason Job and His wife are spared from murder is because GOD has a hedge of protection, and it is the hedge that protects them from this angel who opposes.
Nothing to do with obey, but simply how far the hedge allows the angel who is termed oppose, is allowed to murder.
D Satan obeyed God with Job – is this moral ra? R I do not see "obey" here, only a murder reacting to the removal of God's hedge.
D Is decay moral ra? – Is entropy moral ra? R no I would call this natural RA, not a sin, or moral RA
D Man is the animal that does moral ra R you are assuming all the words in Hebrew only apply to one Creature? Man only
D Because they were not created perfect and cannot exist in the presence of God
R So these angel left their first beginnings because GOD did make them perfect. God made a mistake in His Creation ?
D They left because they sinned. The First Archon’s First thought was of SELF – correct R Are you saying these angels left because they sinned? because SELF developed in them? GOD created those angels that way? GOD created SELF in these angels? D Did God created them – or do you need a second creator? R you do not need a second creator for RA or for good angels who choose to do sinning. Sin does not create anything new, sin spoils the first creation.
D De 8:2 And thou shalt remember <zakar> all the way <derek> which the LORD <Y@hovah> thy God <'elohiym> led <yalak> thee these forty <'arba`iym> years <shaneh (in pl. only),> in the wilderness <midbar>, to humble <`anah> thee, and to prove <nacah> thee, to know <yada`> what was in thine heart <lebab>, whether thou wouldest keep <shamar> his commandments <mitsvah>, or no.
"and to prove <nacah> thee, "
Jeff Benner "test thee"
Why does GOD have to "test us" ? Because live live in a world of RA, and we experience both TOV and RA.
All your text would assume this idea? What about a world without RA, do you need testing?
Re 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away No hint of RA anywhere in this world.
Re 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: NO provision for sinnning
Does GOD allow further testing to His love in this world? No
D Col 1:16 also says Jesus created the powers and principalities (archie) – that left their first estate - through Him and for Him
R hmm? Can't change a person's world view can you. Evidence does not change a world view. I pray and hope it doesn't matter Dave.
May GOD bless your world and your family. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 2, 2020 16:31:22 GMT -5
R A legion refers to many of the angels that left their beginnings. All the same kind of creature: ie angels YES! – the archon that were ejected from heaven – correct These are not the angels that praise God – different group - agree
Now I asked you specifically, where in NT or OT Scripture do these Angels get created as moral agents of RA? Isaiah 45:7 and Col 1:16 – you deny scripture It was all made through HiM – for Him Not a single text anywhere.... Except for the verses that declares that there is only one true Creator – no second creator
D Why do you keep saying moral ra – where is your evidence to support your attitude R You do not accept a supreme GOD would live by His own supreme law You say only man has to live by certain laws written by GOD for man.
The royal law is a supreme law describing love functions as TOV Whose definition of tov – yours Please answer – God can and dose commit pre-medatated murder of large groups of people Can you – can I God dictated the genocide of 7 tribes of man Can you – Can I God can forgive sin – can you – can I
The royal law is a supreme law describing love functions as TOV, not RA. And since GOD is LOVE, this implies by logical laws of association, that GOD must be defined by those laws describing love, but you do not agree with this idea, whereas I do. You only choose to see ½ the picture – and deny the other ½ Your views are religious – not wholelistic
You run around and claim God can’t When I ask you about the time He does – you just call them hard questions and move on Overlooking the exceptions to your own absolutism
BUt you say GOD murders, kills, and does such things. These things are called transgressions of love, and I term these moral RA, to help distinguish between , friction, entropy and shadows of darkness, which is natural RA. God does murder and Kill – do you deny scripture? Are you so blinded by your religion that you are unable to see scripture clearly God is responsible for a whole lot of ra
This suggests to me that LAWS are more than than even if GOD asks to you to do something against His laws.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Why was this angel walking up and down the earth? DUH - it is his job How can the archon test all creation from the comfort of heaven?
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.
So you say this angel who is written as "oppose in noun sense", also termed a devil angel, and a murderer from the beginnings, since He left his first beginings, Jude says, seems to be "obeying God" ?? Your reading "obedience" into the passage, whereas I don't see this concept.
So satan did nothing to Job – if satan did not obey God then he God said – Job 1:12 satan should have refused God – disobeyed God – said NO! But instead – satan did exactly what God wanted him to do – but according to you this must be opposition to God
Ge 27:8 Now therefore, my son <ben>, obey <shama`> my voice <qowl> according to that which <'aher> I command <tsavah> thee
Jeff Benner V) ( Sh-MAh) — Hear: To hear as well as to respond to what is heard. [Hebrew and Aramaic] [freq. 1168] (vf: Paal, Niphal, Hiphil, Piel) |kjv: hear, obey, publish, understand, obedient, diligently, show, sound, declare, discern, noise, perceive, tell, report| {str: 8085, 8086}
You just made the case that the written law superseded God’s voice Conflicting
D Man is the animal that does moral ra R you are assuming all the words in Hebrew only apply to one Creature? Man only You assume the Torah was written for the angels to follow
D Because they were not created perfect and cannot exist in the presence of God R So these angel left their first beginnings because GOD did make them perfect. God made a mistake in His Creation ? If you want to call Ias 45:7 and Col 1:16 God making mistakes – then go for it I am sure He will forgive your insolence
D Did God created them – or do you need a second creator? R you do not need a second creator for RA or for good angels who choose to do sinning. Sin does not create anything new, sin spoils the first creation. OK – if you put it that way – who created sin?
D Col 1:16 also says Jesus created the powers and principalities (archie) – that left their first estate - through Him and for Him R hmm? Can't change a person's world view can you. Evidence does not change a world view. I pray and hope it doesn't matter Dave. What does this passage mean – God did not created everything? You have a view as well – go satan – Hope your God can stand up to him
since GOD is LOVE, this implies by logical laws of association, that GOD must be defined by those laws describing love,
OK - Why doesn't God love everybody then? Why did God only introduce Himself to the 1% and made the process of witnessing to all the nations of the world one bloody battel after another leaving the 99% in the land of 'other gods'
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2020 14:10:14 GMT -5
Greetings Dave all things <pas> were created <ktizo> by <dia> him <autos>, and <kai> for <eis> him <autos>: So all beginnings were created by Jesus Christ. Isa 45:7 I form <yatsar> the light <'owr>, and create <bara'> darkness <choshek>: I make <`asah> peace <shalowm>, and create <bara'> evil <ra`>: I the LORD <Y@hovah> do <`asah>
The Jesus-YHWH also creates RA, when required to contrast the light.
The term "arche" or "beginnings" has to be a relationship with Jesus-YHWH. The term "ra" also has to be a relationship with Jesus-YHWH.
Isa 45:7 Says Jesus is light, peace and Jesus does these things. However relationships also can do darkness and evil (the opposite of peace), and Jesus-YHWH has to make these contrasts observable too.
Your statement imply that Jesus owns relationships, or controls relationships, or creates relationships?
Can GOD do such things?
Can GOD create obedience?
Can GOD create relationships, ie: own everthing you do and say as a creature?
Can GOD create functional relationships ?
Can GOD create dysfunctional relationships?
I know GOD knows all things, but surely I have the right as a creature to respond to His love by loving Him.
Why does the Hebrew word "chata" exist?
Because it applies to relationships. Do you even understand this idea?
Sin is a broken relationship. Jesus does not create creatures doing moral ra by design. Sure I get GOD has to create shadows so creatures see sin around them, but your going further saying GOD creates all the sin these creatures do, through them for GOD, a part of God's will? That makes GOD a god of evil and good.
You really do not understanding what sin is. GOD cannot create SIN.
Sure GOD can create natural RA, so creatures can see moral RA in their relationship to GOD. Moral RA is SIN.
God cannot create SIN.
God does not do SIN. Sure you quote GOD doing some so called sinful acts, but are these acts sinful, or God's right to end your probation for living? I suggest during judgement you can view GOD carefully in all these things. Jude says some angels left their beginnings.
The verb here is left. What other verb also means break relationships? Sin.
So some angels sinned.
Does Scripture say this? Yes
"cherub chata" are two Hebrew words, the correct Hebrew words for angels sinning, yet of all the Scripture clearly speaking for me, and against you, you ignore these two Hebrew words.
You say you follow Scripture. Hmmm?
D God can and dose commit pre-medatated murder of large groups of people R you have a verse for this idea?
Did GOD wound anyperson of their right to access salvation?
You say the gospel did not go to the entire globe before the Flood?
My understanding is Noah and his family were the only straight people on earth aat the time. All others were crooked. It is transgression to allow such crookedness to continue.
My understanding also for Sodom is the only "straight" ones in the city was just one family, Lot. The entire city was crooked. It is transgression to allow such crookedness to continue.
If the straight ones in the end of time is a mere 144,000 in the entire global population of just under say 8 billion people, this is approaching Sodom and Flood numbers, hardly one straight person per city over the earth.
For example the number of so called SDA people is around 20 million, Ellen White says not one in twenty is a true Christian. Scripture says even less are saved, so few a child could write them down.
D God does murder and Kill – do you deny scripture? Are you so blinded by your religion that you are unable to see scripture clearly God is responsible for a whole lot of ra
R No Dave GOD is not responible for a whole lot of moral RA, the opposer is. The angels that chose to left their beginnings because they chose to sin.
Sure GOD does a lot of natural RA, and by withdrawing His HEDGE, the opposer comes in, opposes GOD's love, so we humans experience bad things. But GOD dos not do moral RA.
You say GOD intentionally murders people. Really?
Am 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. (KJV)
In the midst of RA, GOD saves us as a firebrand plucked out of the burning.
A poetry play on words. Hebrew is fun. Burning is both RA and TOV. GOD is a burning. RA also burns us.
When GOD comes close to love us, His loving burns us, seems like RA. Satan, the oppose also tries to hurt us, especially our salvation experience, getting us to sin more and more. But GOD is clever, and burns us at the right moment to save us as a firebrand plucked from His love of burning.
The best example of extreme burning on both sides is World War I and II. Soldiers who had no relationship with GOD suddenly respected the Pastor who prayed for them.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (KJV)
WHO causes this RA ? Satan, the opposer does. The Scripture says so right here. One of my faviourite texts, we are saved (often as we die) as a brand plucked from the fire.
D You assume the Torah was written for the angels to follow R Yes the royal torah must be followed by all creatures, including birds, lions and angels, as well as humans.
Only two creatures have accountability for the royal torah in Hebrew, cherub and adam.
Lions and birds etc, have no accountability for sin.
D OK – if you put it that way – who created sin? R Nobody did. Sin is by definition a broken relationship:
the angels LEFT their beginnings. Mankind LEFT their beginnings.
Both creatures do this when they SIN.
The decision of leave, does not need Creating. It comes with LOVE. Once you do sin, GOD has to respond, otherwise you would cease to exist, hence GOD does natural RA.
D What does this passage mean – God did not created everything? R Yes God did not created everything?
GOD cannot create SIN.
God only creates relationships. A Creator and a Creature.
The relationship begins with TOV, because LOVE is TOV. But love can also do RA, something GOD is NOT.
D OK - Why doesn't God love everybody then? R You think testing people with RA makes them LOVE? It does the exact opposite. Only love awakens love.
How many people feel love and see love? Not around these days.
Our love is selfish.
Love is rare, hence why people do not experience love. Annd if you try to love and get whacked by ra, will you love again? NO
I know girls who used to love, now raped, now no longer love again. I know boys who used to be kind, now bashed, no longer are kind. You thinking RA makes us love more? No, it does the very opposite.
Only love makes us love. Rare to see love like this, not the animal love, but the love GOD is.
D leaving the 99% in the land of 'other gods' R No so
Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Even head hunters in remote tribes of PNG can be saved by GOD talking to them directly via their conscience. GOD does not need torah to save people, GOD talks directly to all of us daily, if you listen.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 3, 2020 17:32:27 GMT -5
The Jesus-YHWH also creates RA, when required to contrast the light. Well – you have gone from God cannot create ra To Jesus creates ra whenever required That seem consistant?
Isa 45:7 Says Jesus is light, peace and Jesus does these things. However relationships also can do darkness and evil (the opposite of peace), and Jesus-YHWH has to make these contrasts observable too. Your statement imply that Jesus owns relationships, or controls relationships, or creates relationships?
I did say anything about relationships Scripture makes the claim – you need to twist it into some relationship metaphor just to be confusing Scripture says – God did it – God did all of it - I do not deny this scripture- you do
Can GOD Can GOD Can GOD Can GOD The Robert game – if – if – if – if – if then things would be different
I know GOD knows all things, but surely I have the right as a creature to respond to His love by loving Him. Who says you don’t – I don’t say this In fact the archon don’t tell you not to worship God either There are many many Christians on this planet that believe they are Christian Mormons are not Christian Jehovah Witness are not Christian Uitatarians are not Christian They all follow an archon distraction – anything but the truth
You keep saying the archon make your murder and rape What a bunch of crap – they don’t make you do anything They are just as happy if you ‘miss’ the Lord by any means – even Roman Christendom
Why does the Hebrew word "chata" exist? Because it is a prt of God’s plan – God’s will – no one else is in control
Because it applies to relationships. Do you even understand this idea? Sin is a broken relationship. You really do not understanding what sin is. GOD cannot create SIN.
OK – satan and God are on speaking terms in the Book of Job They have some type of relationship Satan did what God told him to do = his worst Is satan sinning – he is not breaking his relationship with God – he is following God direction How is obeying the Lord a sin? Obeying the Lord would indicate a good relationship - not a broken one
God cannot create SIN. God does not do SIN. Sure you quote GOD doing some so called sinful acts, Did I say they were sinful? You better read again I was just pointing out that you absolute rule that God must obey the Torah is stupid and not supported by scripture If God does not have to bend his knee to the Torah Where is your proof that angels must
"cherub chata" are two Hebrew words, the correct Hebrew words for angels sinning, yet of all the Scripture clearly speaking for me, and against you, you ignore these two Hebrew words. YES! These are your two words that you are willing to throw away so much scripture over YES! These are the foundational words of your Great Controversy You need satan – to validate your theology I don’t need satan at all – neither do the Jews or the Messianic Jews
R No Dave GOD is not responible for a whole lot of RA, the opposer is. YES! You need a bad-guy to validate your SDA theology – we don’t Some of us think of God as absolute Sure GOD does a lot of natural RA, Which is it Robert? God does ra or God cannot do ra – please make up your mind
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (KJV)
WHO causes this RA ? Satan, the opposer does. The Scripture says so right here. One of my faviourite texts, we are saved (often as we die) as a brand plucked from the fire.
Is this your goal - to be saved as you die? There is no way this vers is proof that satan created ra - or even does ra in this verse
D What does this passage mean – God did not created everything? R Yes God did not created everything? I am glad we finnaly answered that - a second creatoe is reqiured
D OK - Why doesn't God love everybody then? R You think testing people with RA makes them LOVE? It does the exact opposite. Way to not answer D leaving the 99% in the land of 'other gods' R No so WHAT – are you telling me thay YHWY introduced Himself to all the people of the earth in the same way He introduced Himself to the Jews Did God teach the Philistine how to be Philistine? Does God have a covenant with them? When did God walk with them – is this in your Torah – or did God give all these different people different Torahs?
NO MY FRIEND – you cannot deny that God came down only to the Jews And the Jews were supposed to witness God to the others Why didn't different Jesuses come down for all these other God witnessed Torahs? No Jesus came for the Jew First then the Gentile
Speaking of which – why didn’t Jesus come for the Gentile – and the Arabs – and the Asian NO – the Gentiles are the Northern lost 10 tribes of Israel LEAVING the chaldeans to worship another 'other god' named Allah almost as if Jesus had plan for them later in the story? Now as Christians – were are to witness to the rest of the world
Even head hunters in remote tribes of PNG can be saved by GOD talking to them directly via their conscience. GOD does not need torah to save people, GOD talks directly to all of us daily, if you listen. Agreed – but that is not the answer to my question If God loves everyone – why didn’t he make the whole planet Jewish? If God loves everyone – why are Christians still proselytizing China?
Please explain God Plan of LOVE for everyone – when he is only introduced to the 1%
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2020 16:10:31 GMT -5
D OK – satan and God are on speaking terms in the Book of Job They have some type of relationship Satan did what God told him to do = his worst Is satan sinning – he is not breaking his relationship with God – he is following God direction How is obeying the Lord a sin? Obeying the Lord would indicate a good relationship - not a broken one
What kind of relationship is GOD and "this angel who left his beginning" ? Hebrew uses the noun form of "oppose". One opposes the other.
Are these any example of enemies being nice and respectful for a time?
Germans and Australia forces climbed out of trenches to exchange presents on Xmas morning, Than later next day began killing each other again. White flag meetings of generals talking to each other, before backing off the kill each other.
I do not see "obey" here anywhere in this "angel who left his beginnings" with GOD.
God has to remove His HEDGE, before the angel who left his beginnings can DO anything.
The use of "oppose" tells you already the relationship is broken.
In a tennis match we can shake hands, be nice etc, but my opponent opposes me, hence in terms of tennis, our relationship is broken, we are enemies.
When GOD opposes Baalim, God functioned as an enemy to Baalim. Opposed the path of the donkey. Is GOD an enemy because God hates Baalim, or because Baalim hates GOD? God loves all humans, but only opposes them if they become sinners. So it's you doing the sinning, that causes GOD to function that way.
R God does not do SIN. Sure you quote GOD doing some so called sinful acts, D Did I say they were sinful? You better read again I was just pointing out that you absolute rule that God must obey the Torah is stupid and not supported by scripture If God does not have to bend his knee to the Torah Where is your proof that angels must
R good, than GOD does not do sin. You ask does GOD have to follow His own laws of Love? Yes
God has to comply with His own maths and logical functions of maths. But GOD can and do sometimes do miracles that deny math principles.
Does this also mean GOD can violate his own principles of Love? I don't think so.
Do even dumb animals follow the principles of love?
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. (KJV)
This is a ALL TOV universe once again, no SIN no RA anywhere. NO angels allowed leaving thier first beginnings.
If animals have to follow principles of love, so will man and the angels. I theorize all creatures have free will functions to love and be loved, only mankind's love is recorded for a reason, to witness to these angels who left their first beginnings, and hence replace them.
D YES! These are your two words that you are willing to throw away so much scripture over YES! These are the foundational words of your Great Controversy You need satan – to validate your theology I don’t need satan at all – neither do the Jews or the Messianic Jews R Do you admit your ignoring a part of the Hebrew torah in doing so with your theology?
And replacing these words with Gnostic words "HS creates archons, not perfect, these angels leave their beginnings because they are not perfect"
That's not what Jude says, the angels had to be following their beginnings implies the angels were perfect, than they left their estate, left their beginnings, implies the angels sinned?
DO you follow this?
D Which is it Robert? God does ra or God cannot do ra – please make up your mind R If the first angel sinned, GOD must react, otherwise the angel ceases to exist, and it burned up in the burning power of love. A medium has to come forth (this is a natural RA principle) the brightness of GOD diminshes (this is a natural RA principle) , than the umbra shadows of sin (functionally moral RA), are seen by the angel.
In all this GOD does not do moral RA, thus trangress His own laws of love. God is love, even while others sin.
D There is no way this verse is proof that satan created ra - or even does ra in this verse..
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (KJV)
Well the word oppose is there.
If an angel left his beginnings is an opponent to a human being saved from burning, why does the burning fires of love burn the man being saved? so that GOD has to pluck him from the fire?
Your missing something? The point of the opponent here at all? Why is the Lord rebuking the opponent at all?
Why can't GOD decide by Himself the man is worthy of salvation? Following your theory, you do not need an opponent at all, God judges, God decides who is worthy of salvation.
God has records of all things people do, so what is an opponent against man for? Not necessary. Again you are missing the point of the opponent.
Why does the opponent oppose GOD over the man? Because GOD is stealing a man from the opponents kingdom. That's why the opponent opposes GOD.
If a German defected over to the allied forces, that is why Hitler would oppose Churchill. You are stealing one of my soldier, how dare you. This is why KImKung does not allow South Korea to visit North Korea, he would lose his people, if he allowed this. The king wants his kingdom.
You don't see these angels who left their beginnings are rules over man. The chief angel is prince or king of earth.
D I am glad we finally answered that - a second creator is required R When I was 16 I was bothered by this? How did Mother Nature change so rapidly when Adam sinned? Where did these changes come from? They must have come from GOD, after all the text says GOD creates RA. However you seem to imply GOD also design sin and sinners as His will too. I do not see this. God is only reacting to sin and sinners, so sinners can see their sin. This is why the medium was called forth from the beginning, when the angel sinned, leaving their first beginnings.
D NO MY FRIEND – you cannot deny that God came down only to the Jews Now as Christians – were are to witness to the rest of the world
R well said
D Agreed – but that is not the answer to my question R Love is relational, Love must be shared
The Jews were to receive Love and Share that love all over the world. They became selfish instead. Light is by definition a sharing thing, it spreads out and seeks darkness destroying it.
Back to your Job issue:
Why does the angel who left his beginnings.
Hang on does torah say the angel was created imperfect as you claim?
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
SO again you violate torah with your statements, GOD created some angels imperfect.
Why did these angels leave their beginnings?
verse 16: and thou hast sinned
The angels sinned.
Strange how Jews say angels cannot sin, do they say Ezekiel wasn't a true prophet? Or Jude? Why does the angel want JOB to sin?
Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. 10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Job sees both Tov and RA coming from the hand of GOD. But Job did not sin.
That makes this angel a failure. He loses Job to another king and thus another kingdom.
Notice both Jesus and the chief angel who sinned are termed princes of the earth.
Do you see this idea even?
D Please explain God Plan of LOVE for everyone – when he is only introduced to the 1% R Enoch walked with GOD hundreds of years, that light shone all over the world. One candle can reach the entire planet. I used to watch a lone tree, bare fruit once a year, and strangers would stop their cars walk over and eat the fruit. If you are a candle of GOD, others will come to you for the true light.
One such example was Dr Sebbi, they called him, who was he? dunno, but his radical diet cured many dying of advanced stages of cancer. People came from all over the world. Shalom shabbath
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Post by Dave on Sept 5, 2020 7:11:59 GMT -5
Obeying the Lord would indicate a good relationship - not a broken one What kind of relationship is GOD and "this angel who left his beginning" ? Hebrew uses the noun form of "oppose". One opposes the other. You are so blindPretend I am your opposer - I hate you and oppose you every chance I get You tell be - go - do your worst to Job IF I was your opposer - I would say NO to you - piss off - do it yourselfinstead - satan did exactly what God intendedHow can doing what God wants you to do be an opposition to God?I do not see "obey" here anywhere in this "angel who left his beginnings" with GOD.You don’t see it - because you choose not to see it because the truth is contrary to your Great Controversy religion God has to remove His HEDGE, before the angel who left his beginnings can DO anything. So God even helps his servant satan to be successful in his taskThe use of "oppose" tells you already the relationship is broken.SEE - wordisms trump context or common senseR God does not do SIN. Sure you quote GOD doing some so called sinful acts, D Did I say they were sinful? You better read again I was just pointing out that you absolute rule that God must obey the Torah is stupid and not supported by scripture If God does not have to bend his knee to the Torah Where is your proof that angels must R good, than GOD does not do sin. You ask does GOD have to follow His own laws of Love? YesDoes this also mean GOD can violate his own principles of Love? I don't think so. WHAT does this mean RobertIt is obvious that God does not have to obey His own 10 commandments My question to you is - 1- how does this prove the angels must follow the Torah laws written for man? 2- why does your God of only love - kill so many people 3- why does your God of love - only introduce Himself to the 1% and not the whole world? I don’t need satan at all – neither do the Jews or the Messianic Jews R Do you admit your ignoring a part of the Hebrew torah in doing so with your theology? I do not reject any scripture satan is an angel of the Lord serving an important function for God God is in control - God’s Will - God’s Plan
In all this GOD does not do moral RA, thus trangress His own laws of love. God is love, even while others sin. WHAT does this mean Robert[/b] It is obvious that God does not have to obey His own 10 commandments Moral ra vrs immoral ra? what does this mean - ra is ra ra is the movement towards ra - your murder and rape are ra just like telling a lie - = ra D There is no way this verse is proof that satan created ra - or even does ra in this verse.. Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (KJV) Well the word oppose is there.BIG DEAL - there is a word there Stop looking at single words and translate the verse - put your single words in some contextYour missing something? The point of the opponent here at all? Why is the Lord rebuking the opponent at all? DUH - What is satan’s function - to accuse man of his sin - that is his job - the proscuter your satan was doing his job as designed - satan was serving the Lord by doing what he is designed to do But God - says - ‘stop’ ‘shut up’ ‘be quite’ satan - I Pardon this man Why can't GOD decide by Himself the man is worthy of salvation? Following your theory, you do not need an opponent at all, God judges, God decides who is worthy of salvation. DUH - What is satan’s function - to accuse man of his sin - that is his job - the proscuter your satan was doing his job as designed - satan was serving the Lord by doing what he is designed to do But God - says - ‘stop’ ‘shut up’ ‘be quite’ satan - I Pardon this man God has records of all things people do, so what is an opponent against man for? Not necessary. Again you are missing the point of the opponent. DUH - What is satan’s function - to accuse man of his sin - that is his job - the proscuter your satan was doing his job as designed - satan was serving the Lord by doing what he is designed to do But God - says - ‘stop’ ‘shut up’ ‘be quite’ satan - I Pardon this man Why does the opponent oppose GOD over the man? Because GOD is stealing a man from the opponents kingdom. That's why the opponent opposes GOD. DUH - What is satan’s function - to accuse man of his sin - that is his job - the proscuter your satan was doing his job as designed - satan was serving the Lord by doing what he is designed to do But God - says - ‘stop’ ‘shut up’ ‘be quite’ satan - I Pardon this man You don't see these angels who left their beginnings are rules over man. The chief angel is prince or king of earth. God is the KING of all creation - omnipresent - The archon are ejected from heaven - left their first estate - and sent into earth (physical creation) Planet Earth - here - is a 3D corporeal world - one small fraction of all of earth (physical creation) All earth - all physical creation (Gen 1:1) is the domain of the archon
Planet Earth is just one small corner of their realm - and yes there is one archon whose area os responsibility is this planet - call him a prince if you like - he is not a king Under his control are many other archon (principalities) Jinn - demons Just like an army One Commander in Chief Archon - Then generals - and Captains - with many privates They live here with us - beside us - some of us even have a genetic link (Rephiem)The Jinn were here before man - the archon were here before man Adam and Eve left paradise to enter their world - and they lived side by side until Noah Contest reset Now we live here with them as well - except 90% of them have been jailed and removed from this planet The 10% that remained fathered the rephiem - post flood Nephilim - 7 tribes of Amorite Then as they died mortal deaths - their spirits are trapped here - evil spirits - demons We live here side by side with themWe are animal - and animal comes with yester ra The archon feed our yester ra - they suggest - nothing more - man does the rest REVENGE only has to start once then it just perpetuates - when does the hate and killing stop? How many generations? A false religion only has to start once - then it self-perpetuates We are in a contest between self and spirit - long for here or long for heaven Spirit is available to help spirit - the HS witnesses with our-spirit = I need yester ra is always listening to the archon = I want This is something Richard makes a big deal about Not praying for specifics - I want - I want He teaches to pray only - I want only God's Will to be done about this or that D I am glad we finally answered that - a second creator is required R However you seem to imply GOD also design sin and sinners as His will too. Isaiah 45:7 - Proverbs 16:4 - Col 1:16 - John 1:1-4
What of predestination - you failed to answer my question about it How does free will choice work I asked if God predestines some, deliberately calls others, and makes some to be the wicked for the end of days?
D NO MY FRIEND – you cannot deny that God came down only to the Jews Now as Christians – were are to witness to the rest of the world R well said D Agreed – but that is not the answer to my question D Please explain God Plan of LOVE for everyone – when he is only introduced to the 1%Why didn’t God come for China - or to China Why hasn’t Christianity been as active in Asia as they have in the rest of the world? Why did God come only to Abraham - doesn’t your God love everyone? How is this a God of LOVE ONLY!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2020 15:15:03 GMT -5
Greetings Dave OK I get it seems like these angels do as they are requested by GOD. D What is satan’s function - to accuse man of his sin - that is his job - the proscuter your satan was doing his job as designed - satan was serving the Lord by doing what he is designed to do But God - says - ‘stop’ ‘shut up’ ‘be quite’ satan - I Pardon this manR Ok I get your viewpoint However, I see a difference between us caused by this statement of yours: D Planet Earth is just one small corner of their realm - and yes there is one archon whose area of responsibility is this planet - call him a prince if you like - he is not a king Under his control are many other archon (principalities) Jinn - demons Just like an army R Why isn't this angel who left his beginnings you agree to the label of prince, but you disagree this prince is not a king? Isn't a king just a fancy term for a prince? Both are rulers over a kingdom? So where exactly is this prince given the functional task by GOD as a prosecutor of man, in the torah? I would suggest the prince is upset because one man in his kingdom is defecting to another prince (Jesus). Do you see this idea? D Why didn’t God come for China - or to China Why hasn’t Christianity been as active in Asia as they have in the rest of the world? Why did God come only to Abraham - doesn’t your God love everyone? How is this a God of LOVE ONLY!Noah fathered the Chinese, and the concept of "shung dei" existed in their writings, from 2400BC, ie "Shadday". Thus the Chinese were supporting YHWH long before Abram did. Gandhi and Buddha seem like special people raised by GOD to love mankind. So I think the gospel went up in CULTURAL context of the people living there. There are missionary stories of running into tribes of Africa, keeping the correct Sabbath even. D It is obvious that God does not have to obey His own 10 commandmentsR really? This means humans have no logical stable way of assessing love than. How sad you view GOD able to NOT follow His own laws: The USA is modelled upon the supreme nature of law: www.adfmedia.org/files/BloomfieldAmicusFML.pdf These commandments, which, like a collection of diamonds, bear testimony to their own intrinsic worth, in themselves appeal to us as coming from a superhuman or divine source, and no conscientious or reasonable man has yet been able to find a flaw in them. Absolutely flawless, negative in terms, but positive in meaning, they easily stand at the head of our whole moral system, and no nation or people can long continue a happy existence in open violation of them. The Ten Commandments, as an expression of Hebrew political philosophy, reflect the “laws of nature and of nature’s God,” that “all men are created equal” and have unalienable God-given rights, and that government is to be by consent of the governed. These principles find overt expression in the founding document of the America nation, the Declaration of Independence, which invokes “ the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” and states: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. The codes are often referred to for their religious importance, however, in fact, in Hebraic history they were in part legal codes governing the social conduct of the societies to which they applied. The Biblical books are ancient legal codes and histories. It would be wrong to assume the Hebraic references are merely religious commands. The Ten Commandments state the foundational principles of American law, including the following: Respect for life, as reflected in the Commandment “Thou shalt not kill” and in homicide laws. Respect for property, as reflected in the Commandments “Thou shalt not steal” and “Thou shalt not covet” and in property laws. Luther believed the Ten Commandments were the perfect expression of natural law: Natural law is the Ten Commandments. It is written in the heart of every human being by creation. It was clearly and comprehensively put on Mount Sinai, finer indeed than any philosopher has ever stated it. Natural law, then, is created and written in the heart; it does not come from men but is a created Law to which everyone who hears it cannot but consent.12 On another occasion Luther wrote: The Decalog is not of Moses, nor did God give it to him first. On the contrary, the Decalog belongs to the whole world; it was written and engraved in the minds of all human beings from the beginning of the world.13 For since the law of nature is perpetual and unchangeable, nothing contrary to it could be commanded by God, who is never unjust.They believed that the same God who thundered from Sinai, and who later sent his son into the world, had revealed to Israel the form of a perfect republic. The Ten Commandments, then, stand for a philosophy of law and government that is central to the American system. God is unchangeable, totally subject to His own laws, cannot by any means violate these laws. www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-DuLOXng8 Watched a bit, but heavy download. www.amazingfacts.org/news-and-features/news/item/id/10890/t/does-god-kill- SDA answer but too brief www.vocativ.com/news/309748/all-the-people-god-kills-in-the-bible/index.html An interesting read, how much killing GOD is associated with. www.wall.org/~aron/blog/when-god-kills-the-innocent/ Finally a nice reply to a tricky question. Quote: " Before I ask whether I can trust a God who killed the Caananite children, I first need to ask whether I can trust a God who will kill ME.I do not believe God is above His own laws, but also subject to His own laws. The Decalogue was placed under the seat of GOD, God sits on these laws. God is the author of living. Sin is the author of death. These two forces conflict each other, making GOD seem like He is killing people because of their sin, or because they sin. There is always reaction and actions from sin, therefore the fact that sin affects epi-genetics means that sometimes your sinful living impacts your children yet to be born. So the commandment to respect living, can be complex. We have to trust God, who respects living, that He knows what is good for us. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 5, 2020 20:53:33 GMT -5
OK I get it seems like these angels do as they are requested by GOD. R Ok I get your viewpoint
However, I see a difference between us caused by this statement of yours:D Planet Earth is just one small corner of their realm - and yes there is one archon whose area of responsibility is this planet - call him a prince if you like - he is not a king Under his control are many other archon (principalities) Jinn - demons Just like an army R Why isn't this angel who left his beginnings you agree to the label of prince, but you disagree this prince is not a king? Isn't a king just a fancy term for a prince? Both are rulers over a kingdom? What do you mean?A prince is a king of his own area = OK These kings of yours are not the KING of the MULTIVERSE – only God is Call then prince – sar – king – Fred – or archon – it doesn’t matter what you call them I would suggest the prince is upset because one man in his kingdom is defecting to another prince (Jesus). Do you see this idea?This is too small of a view – and it is not represented by the Tanak Rev 12:7 is not in your Torah – war – Great Controversy The God of this world (archon) never says – look at me – follow me Strange god of yours that does not want recognition – credit – for his powers Where are the statues to satan – where are his churches All satan’s churches preach a deception Christian message – a pseudo-Christian message All satan’s churches have been busy killing the Jews then the Muslim and each other Why did God come only to Abraham - doesn’t your God love everyone? How is this a God of LOVE ONLY!Noah fathered the Chinese, and the concept of "shung dei" existed in their writings, from 2400BC, ie "Shadday". Thus the Chinese were supporting YHWH long before Abram did. Agree – the decedents of Noah took the message there – agreed Cultural myths of Atlantis – trolls – dragons – wizards - and Giants are all memoirs of Noah – agreed
Did shung die walk with the Chinese in a wilderness and teach them to be different? Did shung die give them a different Toarah Dose God have a covenant with China Did God return to China as a man for the forgiveness of sin? Gandhi and Buddha seem like special people raised by GOD to love mankind.Gandhi was a Hindu – is Shiva just Jesus Christ? Why is their religious text so different than the Torah? Siddhartha preached self-enlightenment – atheist Are all these other religions just Judaism in disguise? Do all these other religions come from your god?There are different ways to please God? Why be a SDA – Hindus have a lot more fun What of Allah – is he also from your God – should we consider being Muslim This would make Baal and Moloch and 31 more ‘other gods’ of that all belong to and coming from your god So I think the gospel went up in CULTURAL context of the people living there. There are missionary stories of running into tribes of Africa, keeping the correct Sabbath even. Because they are of African Jewish decentD It is obvious that God does not have to obey His own 10 commandments R really? This means humans have no logical stable way of assessing love than. How sad you view GOD able to NOT follow His own laws: OK – we are back to this – I wish you could hold a consistent theology Why does God kill / premeditated murder – to millions – but you cannot Your answer so far – they deserved it What did Job’s children do wrong? That they deserved to be killed?The Ten Commandments state the foundational principles of American law, including the following: • Respect for life, as reflected in the Commandment “Thou shalt not kill” and in homicide laws. As in killing all life on the planet save Noah and company How does this demonstrate your God is a God of Love• Respect for property, as reflected in the Commandments “Thou shalt not steal” and “Thou shalt not covet” and in property laws. As in destroying Sodom and Gomorrah to an extent that we are not perfectly sure of its location to this day How does this demonstrate your God is a God of LoveGod is unchangeable, totally subject to His own laws, cannot by any means violate these laws.www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-DuLOXng8 YES! – the Jewish ahl was rewritten by Roman Christianson – Agree YES! – Roman Christian Feel Good Christian and Jesus of love and mercy does not fit with angry, fundamental, and judgment God of the ahl Two Gods – one ahl and one agl – YES the Roman Edit – that you deny His argument is based on exactly what I say – It is not is there a God? – it is You God of Love Only Feel Good version vers the ahl reality – agree God does kill – you cannot God can by ‘Majestic Authority’ – you are just a man Translation – God is not bound by the 10 Commandments Then he list a bunch of other pastors who are misguided by their mistaken views PRIMARILY – they do not grasp the Genocide of the Rephiem – hard to explainAnd how people play metaphor games to divide scripture between the literal and the metaphor27:00 BING – how can this be – ASNSWER who are we to judge the mind of God!28:00 BANG – who can place themselves in the position to judge God
Finally a nice reply to a tricky question. Quote: "Before I ask whether I can trust a God who killed the Caananite children, I first need to ask whether I can trust a God who will kill ME. I do not believe God is above His own laws, but also subject to His own laws. So the commandment to respect living, can be complex. We have to trust God, who respects living, that He knows what is good for us. How can you trust a God but deny his hand in scripture God’s Will – not your will - OR SATAN’S WILLI want to say this again – God can and does by ‘Majestic Authority’ – you are just a man Translation – God is not bound by the 10 Commandments Then he list a bunch of other pastors who are misguided by their mistaken views PRIMARILY – they do not grasp the Genocide of the Rephiem – hard to explain And how people play metaphor games to divide scripture between the literal and the metaphor 27:00 BING – how can this be – ASNSWER who are we to judge the mind of God! 28:00 BANG – who can place themselves in the position to judge God
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2020 16:13:01 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
R I would suggest the prince is upset because one man in his kingdom is defecting to another prince (Jesus). Do you see this idea?
D This is too small of a view – and it is not represented by the Tanak
Rev 12:7 is not in your Torah – war – Great Controversy
The God of this world (archon) never says – look at me – follow me Strange god of yours that does not want recognition – credit – for his powers Where are the statues to satan – where are his churches
R So you agree this angel who left his beginnings is a prince. Great. D This Prince of this World never says – look at me – follow me
R You're joking arn't you?
Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
This verse alone refutes your idea. The dragon gives power to the human beast powers, so humans who worship the beast powers, also worship the dragon. But the religion is one of deception.
You can learn a lot about this Hebrew word, regarding this dragon, a poetry symbol of this opposing angelic power.
De 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: 33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Wine is a poetry symbol of doctrines and thus false torah teachings. Notice the city of Sodom was empowered by the Dragon.
Job 29:1 ¶ Moreover Job continued his parable, and said, Job 30:26 When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness. Job 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
Job identifys the ra, the darkness as coming from the Dragon,
Ps 44:19 Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death.
The Dragon is the author of the shadow of death.
Ps 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
Notice the Dragon came to Jesus and quoted this very prayer promise to Jesus, confirming both understand the Dragon powers in this passage. But Jesus said thou shalt not test the Father with promised powers.
Eze 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
Notice a Great Dragon empowers the Pharaoh of Egypt, thus there are two rivers opposing each other. So the Dragon is everywhere in the Torah, if you go looking for this.
D Because they are of African Jewish decent R Hmm? nice
D What did Job’s children do wrong? That they deserved to be killed? R Satan killed Job's children, not GOD. However God did remove His hedge protecting Job, so the character of this other ruling prince could do what is natural to him, because GOD challenged him, as a ruler.
I can assure you that no person is not without reasoning time to choose salvation, God only tested Job after He knew all the household of Job were already saved for eternity.
The length of our first living is up to the Author of living. We are not to question this. In fact all of us will end of first living, by the God of Living.
D As in destroying Sodom and Gomorrah to an extent that we are not perfectly sure of its location to this day . How does this demonstrate your God is a God of Love
De 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: 33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
It would be murder to allow Sodom to run its Dragon Doctrines all over the world. It would be a loving GOD to terminate the Doctrines of the Dragon in these cities.
D God can and does by ‘Majestic Authority’ – you are just a man Translation – God is not bound by the 10 Commandments R I see. OK I will leave you to your idea on this.
I see this differently. God cannot be just if He doesn't follow His own laws ALL the time.
D Rev 12:7 is not in your Torah – war – Great Controversy R You fail to see a Great Controversy. Instead you see everything RA designed as God's will.
Eze 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
"a Great Controversy here" Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 6, 2020 22:13:38 GMT -5
The God of this world (archon) never says – look at me – follow me Strange god of yours that does not want recognition – credit – for his powers Where are the statues to satan – where are his churches R So you agree this angel who left his beginnings is a prince. Great.FIRST – it was not one angel – it was an entire race of archonSecond – they are in a hierarchical command structure – just like angels A commander at the top – some under him – some under him and privates at the bottomThe race of archon are not your satan – they can be – any angel can be 5 plumbers walk into a room – which one is “the Plumber” D This Prince of this World never says – look at me – follow me R You're joking arn't you? Show me one church dedicated to satan the god of evil(Wiki) - The Satanic Temple is a nontheistic religious group (they promote self) = yester ra(Wiki) - The Church of Satan is a religious organization dedicated to Satanism as codified in The Satanic Bible. … The church does not believe in the Devil, neither a Christian nor Islamic notion of Satan.[3] Peter H. Gilmore describes its members as "skeptical atheists", embracing the Hebrew root of the word "Satan" as "adversary". The church views Satan as a positive archetype who represents pride, individualism, and enlightenment, and as a symbol of defiance against the Abrahamic faiths which LaVey criticized for what he saw as the suppression of humanity's natural instincts. (please read this carefully – they promote = “pride, individualism, and enlightenment,” = self And – They criticize Abrahamic faiths for what he saw as the suppression of humanity's natural instincts = yester ra = hedonism) I think this is an import pointIn the Garden – the serpent did not ‘make’ Eve choose ra All the serpent did was talk – talk – suggest – deceive – talk Maybe it is only a whisper in your ear – OR EVEN a though of desire by your own mind (animal) All men are animal – and animal is born with survival instincts – which are always 100% self-preservation = yester ra The archon do not make you sin – they fuel your yester ra AND – there are individual attacks upon the righteous (Job) Ever notice how someone gives their life to the Lord – then runs the other way – I did Ancient prophets used to speak of spiritual beings as if they were real God open Elijah’s servant’s eyes and he saw Jesus cast our demons – people were possessed – and their possession caused sickness This is how I see the spirit realm – just beyond our view – filled with archon and angels all around us As David Ike says – just outside the visual spectrum are entities that are anything but human that have been manipulating society since the beginning. – But a year ago – you say you could see no theology in this. Gen 3:15 - alive and wellRe 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Be careful – you have two satan’s in one verse – which one is the real satan?And they worshiped satan – that gave power to satan – who they worshiped Why two satans? You have avoided addressing the trinity of evil in Revelations - 3 satans there in one verse This verse alone refutes your idea. The dragon gives power to the human beast powers, so humans who worship the beast powers, also worship the dragon. But the religion is one of deception. What are you saying – this prove me wrong but I am right It is not a satan worship – it is a deceptive worshipJob identifys the ra, the darkness as coming from the Dragon,I know who the dragon is – do you You just presented the dragon and the beast as two different beings – which one is your satan Notice a Great Dragon empowers the Pharaoh of Egypt, thus there are two rivers opposing each other. So the Dragon is everywhere in the Torah, if you go looking for this. AgreeD Because they are of African Jewish decent R Hmm? nice Isn’t this true – I meant it as a factD God can and does by ‘Majestic Authority’ – you are just a man Translation – God is not bound by the 10 Commandments R I see. OK I will leave you to your idea on this. HEY ROBERT – this was the point of your video – I took the time to watch it and now you reject ti I see this differently. God cannot be just if He doesn't follow His own laws ALL the time. You judge God – I won’tWhy doesn’t your Love only God come for the whole world? Instead of just to the Jew and Christian?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 2:50:42 GMT -5
D Show me one church dedicated to satan the god of evil
R Mt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. What makes a true church and a false church?
Nu 14:26 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me. 28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you: 29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me, 30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. 34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. 35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.
Only a Church People that support Jesus correctly, ie humble, meek and without sinning.
So any church that does not follow Moses Torah correctly, is a false church, full of deception.
D Show me one church dedicated to satan the god of evil
R Any assmbly not supporting Jesus correctly, not following His Moses Torah first, and NOT following all the prophets after Moses, and are not meek, humble or without sinning, are not a true assembly of people.
Such a True Church would obey all the royal torah, such as worship on Sabbath Saturday's and follow all the torah Moses wrote, and all the torah teachings of Jesus, in the NT. However GOD only judges people by the light they live by, so individually GOD can save people in any fold as His sheep.
D please read this carefully – they promote = “pride, individualism, and enlightenment,” = self R That is a human definition. Scripture defines the true and false church differently.
The word "church" means "Assembly" a gathering of people, not necessarily a label, like a certain denomination. Paul wrote in Romans, not all Israel is Israel. Meaning they are saved, only a remnant is saved. So belonging to a denomination does not necessarily offer you salvation. Salvation comes from supporting Jesus.
D Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
D Be careful – you have two satan’s in one verse – which one is the real satan? R OK you tell me To me, the Dragon is the real FIRST Angel that sinned, the prince of this world. The real Satan.
D it is a deceptive worship R Great: Do you agree the false churches worship Satan under deception?
Nobody would support Satan if they knew who he was truely. But this is no excuse for their choice of sinning, and therefore supporting Satan "the father of evil". D You just presented the dragon and the beast as two different beings – which one is your satan
R The Dragon is. Scripture says so:
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Notice all these Hebrew words mean the same Being, "Dragon" "serpent" "Deviil" "Opposer"
R So the Dragon is everywhere in the Torah, if you go looking for this. D Agree R Great, than the Hebrew word "dragon" is a useful study as to why GOD terminated some cities.
DO you agree GOD terminated Sodom because it was 100% completely supporting Satan, the Dragon. DO you agree GOD terminated Egypt Pharoah because He was 100% completely supporting Satan, the Dragon, and so were the first born sons, as examples to other Egyptians as a warning.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 7, 2020 7:56:54 GMT -5
I asked D Show me one church dedicated to satan the god of evil You answered What makes a true church and a false church?
I asked D Show me one church dedicated to satan the god of evil R Any assmbly not supporting Jesus correctly
Why can’t you show me a church dedicated to your evil satan Does a murder say a quick prayer to satan before he stabs someone? Does a robber say a quick prayer to satan before he robs All hail satan
Instead you give me one Christian example after another
D please read this carefully – they promote = “pride, individualism, and enlightenment,” = self R That is a human definition. Scripture defines the true and false church differently. No Robert - you do not have to play word games and methaphorssss The choice is mitzvah – or chata – what part of self = mitzvah?
D Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
D Be careful – you have two satan’s in one verse – which one is the real satan? R OK you tell me To me, the Dragon is the real FIRST Angel that sinned, the prince of this world. The real Satan. I see – ruwach can only mean one thing to you – because it is one word HS and Shaddy must be two beings because they are two words But satan – he can be many different beings Your satan can be two or three different beings in the same sentence WOW – that really is consistent translation
Do you agree the false churches worship Satan under deception? The only stories I know about man worshiping satan the god of evil are: 1- Faust – who sold his sole to the devil for fame (a novel) 2- Snoop Dog – who claims he sold his sole to the devil for fame (Hollywood) 3- and SDA member Roger Mornou who says He was in a satanic cult that is kept secret or the evil spirit will kill you- (absolute) He was in a satanic cult that no one can get out of or the evil spirit will kill you – (absolute) Yet, he was selling his book – alive and well on one talk show after another – (not absolute) Again – self-serving – not serving satan
Nobody would support Satan if they knew who he was truely. But this is no excuse for their choice of sinning, and therefore supporting Satan "the father of evil". Correct – run the archon up on a pole and expose them for who they are This is the value of the Nag Hammadi - Jesus told His disciples who and what they are Yet – they keep following SELF – yester ra – most don’t even believe in a satan or a God
D You just presented the dragon and the beast as two different beings – which one is your satan R The Dragon is. Scripture says so: Re 20:2 Notice all these Hebrew words mean the same Being, "Dragon" "serpent" "Deviil" "Opposer" Please translate this verse – or even diagram this verse as an elementary English student What you say here is not correct – please translate the verse
Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: The Satan gives power to the satan? Really?
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they shall be tortured day and night forever and ever. So your satan is throw into the Lake of Fire where satan already is - Really
DO you agree GOD terminated Sodom because it was 100% completely supporting Satan, the Dragon. DO you agree GOD terminated Egypt Pharoah because He was 100% completely supporting Satan, the Dragon, and so were the first born sons, as examples to other Egyptians as a warning.
God terminated Sodom and Gomorrah because they totally were worshiping self - A totally hedenostic community Egypt worshiped – ‘other gods’ – archons – pseudo-gods – god that came to Egypt from space – the star Sirus – these gods were in family units with children – they fought amongst themselves – there were about 200 with 20 major players
AND according to the video you presented God can do all this by Majestic Authority because he is God - who can question God You cannot do this - you are man and are bound by the 10 Commandments
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Post by Dave on Sept 7, 2020 10:37:41 GMT -5
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon—the ancient serpent, who is the devil and satan—and bound him for a thousand years.
The dragon = the ancient serpent = the devil – who are all also called a satan Just as God is a satan – or Peter is a satan
Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? If the dragon = the serpent = the devil – who is the beast?
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are too, Who is your beast?
Who was the 'sar' of Persian - your beast - or your dragon Who were the 2000 archon that Jesus cast into pigs - your beast - your dragon - or your satan
Sorry Robert - your satan is not the answer to everything This view is too small - it empowers satan - gives him credit he does not deserve Sorry Robert - your satan is just one player in an entire army of archon Sometimes your satan is a man - Peter Sometimes your satan = God - Balaam
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2020 14:03:12 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Please present your ideas of the dragon, etc,
present your ideas of
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon—the ancient serpent, who is the devil and satan—and bound him for a thousand years.
You tell me:
You say:
Sorry Robert - your satan is not the answer to everything This view is too small - it empowers satan - gives him credit he does not deserve Sorry Robert - your satan is just one player in an entire army of archon Sometimes your satan is a man - Peter Sometimes your satan = God - Balaam
Sin is the answer to everything, the first angel who sins, is a father of sin. This view is not small at all. Sin is a big deal to GOD. Sure the one angel who sinned first has other angels who also sinned, millions of them. Now you mix up verb and noun forms of "oppose/opposer".
Sure behind our sins is an influence who helps us sin, a ruler over our soul. You admit the first angel who sinned is a prince, and Jesus is a prince, so why is it so hard to have two princes fighting over our soul?
Isn't this what sin is all about? a war over relationships?
You don't admit there are relationships.... good relationships and bad relationships. You don't like the idea of a ruler on our right hand helping us sin more. Its the opposite idea of Jesus on our right hand helping us sin less.
D Does a murder say a quick prayer to satan before he stabs someone? R Scripture would say yes to this idea as a concept, however notice my details
Notice:
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
So sin comes from lust, from self. But James does not leave this idea unfinished:
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
A father of lights, verses a father of darkness.
Jas 2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
James points out the supreme nature of the royal law, where and how sin is defined.
Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Now James speaks of "support" the concept of faith, and works from that "support".
If you pray for power from GOD, He sends your support to do. SO yes a quick prayer for power, does indeed empower the supporter who supports GOD to walk a victorious life.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James says here that people who support Satan the devil, also receive power. But the devil does not support GOD or do the works of GOD.
But you say Devil obeys God? And give Job as an example. Being respectful to your enemy, is not the same as supporting your enemy.
Does not the tempter tempt man before he sins? Is this not via your conscience? Does the mind of the wicked mind respond? Directly or indirectly to this influence?
If self is your prince, it does not require continual prayers to the father of lies. But Job who also had self in him like we do, there is a daily battle over self, to pray and sacrifice to GOD for the hedge of salvation, so the fighting the good fight of faith is something a supporter must do daily, to suppress self and subdue self, so the battle is must different for a straight man, than for a wicked man.
God boasted to the opposer how perfect Job was. The opposer spoke back saying remove your hedge and we will see if Job loves you than. Very well God says, but do not touch his life. The battle here is over the hedge of salvation. Salvation is a wall, or a gap in the wall.
Dave speaking in a public forum is hard, as our messages are stored and used by Authorities. There are limits to what I can say.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 7, 2020 19:26:15 GMT -5
Please present your ideas of the dragon, etc, the dragon vrs the beast vrs the satan You tell me:
Here is the only point that matters at the moment The ra – is a lot more complicated – and involved – than just satan hates God There are multiple players – more than one we can call a satan – many that we can call satan
You say: Sorry Robert - your satan is not the answer to everything This view is too small - it empowers satan - gives him credit he does not deserve Sorry Robert - your satan is just one player in an entire army of archon
I completely stand by this – Powers and Principalities and earthly rulers and spiritual rulers from the dark side
Sure behind our sins is an influence who helps us sin, a ruler over our soul. What do you mean rules your soul – if you do a ra you no longer have the Free Will to repent? Is there some dark energy ruling you? No dark force ruled Eve – only talked and talked and talked until she yielded to her own yester ra No dark force ruled Cain – only talk and talk until Cain made the decision himself
You admit the first angel who sinned is a prince, and Jesus is a prince, so why is it so hard to have two princes fighting over our soul?
OK here Before there was anything there was God At creation God battened himself into spirit (HS) and matter (Christ the image we can see of God) Below them are – the entirety of the elohiym - 9 levels of angelic beings Arch-angels – seraphim – cherubs – malaks – and = what Christian called Principalities Each Breed of angel / level of angel / type of angel / race of angel are specific for specific functions
One of those functions = satan – to accuse – to oppose – to hinder ‘creation’ All creation – more than just man
The Nag Hammadi tells us this The First Archon was not made directly by God’s right hand – but the left God dose all these things - by Him for Him – God’s Plan – God’s Will The archon reproduced in the following manor Chief Archon at the top – The Commander and Chief - He is rarely seen Under him are 7 Generals (rulers) – for me this = the 7 heavens – one for each It is a multidimensional creation and story Under these 7 General (rulers) are 12 Captains each 12 is a familiar number in so many ways These Captains each have 72 Lieutenants each with their own domains
This was written <250 AD After 630 AD we have a new writing – the Koran Allah never says all the ‘other gods’ of the Levant are fake or unreal Instead – Allah is their supreme commander And the Islamic heaven = 72 mansions with a virgin each
I cannot imagine how you can deny any correlation
Which archon = the ‘sar’ of this world Probably someone far down the chain of command – a Captain – Lieutenant
Which one is satan – anyone of them – all of them - who every God uses And absolutley none of them are equal with Christ in any way, shape, or form
Sin is the answer to everything, the first angel who sins, is a father of sin. This view is not small at all. Sin is a big deal to GOD. Mitzvah vrs chata – this is always the choice
D Does a murder say a quick prayer to satan before he stabs someone? R Scripture would say yes to this idea as a concept, however notice my details You are making it up
Jas 1:13-15 So sin comes from lust, from self. But James does not leave this idea unfinished:
Jas 1:17 A father of lights, verses a father of darkness.
Hmmmm? Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”—for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He himself tempts no one. Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. Jas 1:15 Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is full grown, it brings forth death. Jas 1:16 Do not be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. Jas 1:18 By His will, He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all He created.
Our own desire – yester ra – drag us away – which leads to death Every Good Gift is from God - without any ra in it – because it is of God Why – so we can complete our mission – remember and witness
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, James points out the supreme nature of the royal law, where and how sin is defined. What is your royal law – is it the Law of Moses or the 10 Commandments Or the commandment of Jesus – Love one another as I have love you and seek ye first the kingdom of God How can we do this – remember – and witness God’s Glory to our fellow souljourners This is our personal mission here- the meaning of life – why are we here It is the mission of Israel It is the mission of all Christians
Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Now James speaks of "support" the concept of faith, and works from that "support". What is a work? – The number of times you go to confession – or the number of times you say a specific prayer – take communion – tithe – Tell me what is a Christian works?
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James says here that people who support Satan the devil, also receive power. But the devil does not support GOD or do the works of GOD. WHAT – not from this verse All it says is that the archon also know there is only one God – and this thought make them tremble with fear – Why – a Christian will say it is because they know their fate A Jew will say it is of their own shame
But you say Devil obeys God? NO – I say satan obeyed God And give Job as an example. YEP!
Does not the tempter tempt man before he sins? Is this not via your conscience? Does the mind of the wicked mind respond? Directly or indirectly to this influence? Not always – maybe only once or twice in your life – or never – or every day Maybe an archon was stroking me when I first took a drug – After that I just liked it – all me
If self is your prince, it does not require continual prayers to the father of lies. Correct – if yester ra is your prince / the voice you listen to / it does not require supporting prayer to satan – or any archon
You are lost to the world – why would they waste their time with you – you are already lost
But Job who also had self in him like we do, there is a daily battle over self, YES! The inner struggle – the inner Contest – animal vrs spirit Self-preservation vrs laying your life down for another
God boasted to the opposer how perfect Job was. The opposer spoke back saying remove your hedge and we will see if Job loves you than. Very well God says, but do not touch his life. The battle here is over the hedge of salvation. Salvation is a wall, or a gap in the wall. I see another lesson here Do not think one minute you are so righteous that God will /or must protect you from satan’s worst
If you don't believ me - ask a Jew
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