Post by Dave on May 27, 2020 20:33:20 GMT -5
Who - What - When - Why
My commentary – people pick and choose individual verses to support their differing views – everyone has a verse they can miss-apply anywhere they want
As a Gnostic – I reject any doctrine that is developed by man – after the 12 stopped writing
If it didn’t exist at the time of the First Christians – it doesn’t exist
I choose to look at the whole of information before me – and weight it according to source
If God said – it is solid
If Jesus said – it is also solid because Christ is the image of the unimaginable God
If the HS says it – same answer – HS = God at a distance / or through a distance
If it is within the Tanak – perfect
If it is within the Talmud – as long as it support the Tanak
If it is in the NT – not 100% perfect –
If it was written by someone who actually knew Jesus, walked with Jesus, saw the transfiguration or resurrection – who saw Jesus for the 50 days following Passover / Resurrection
The First Christians – yes – I value what they have to saw for several reasons – authorship is just one
Whatever Rome – then Calvin – then Daniel Webster – adds or subtracts after the fact is BUNK
Absolutely the biggest mistake is miss-identifying the players
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
What I choose to add to my own personal cosmology
Who - G1228 – διάβολος / diabolos / the devil
The dragon beast is also called the devil and a satan
Why call the beast, who is the devil, a satan – because satan is a verb / a function
They act as satans
Thanks to Robert – even God acted like a satan to Balaam
Gnostics say – I can be your satan – and you can ne my satan if we hinder one another
All theologians say, Abraham, Moses, Joseph, and even Cyrus were Christ figures of the OT
Gnostics also say – You can be my Christ – and I could be yours – if we facilitate salvation
God is the satan – or satan is a servant of the Lord?
Is each reference to satan throughout scripture referring to the very same angel?
What about God and Balaam?
Perhaps any servant of the Lord being the VERB can be called the NOUN
Gnostic –
Who – The Chief Archon = the Beast / The Dragon
What -– choshek crept into creation – Gen 1:2
When - Sometime in the aion / age of the Genesis Gap / the First aion / age
Therefore - Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light
Why / How – God created everything,
However James 3:13 tells us that God doesn’t do the ra Himself
So – to complete the will of God – the Chief Archon was created by the HS
Thus the expression – the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing
The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library
When this First Archon opened his eyes – he thought himself alone and said :
Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
God responded with the light of Gen 1:3
The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library - continued
And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.
Note - The Chief ASrchon sinned with his very first though - a liar from the beginning Jn 8:44
This is the origin of the choshek, the Chief Archon (the devil)
Christian vocabulary the devil angel
elohiym = angel – therefore the devil elohiym
This Chief Archon (devil elohiym) then formed offspring within the darkness = archon
In fact he fathered 7 that fathered 12 that have 72 domains / realms – each with its own ruler / archon
Offspring of the devil elohiym = bane elohiym = archon – offspring of the devil / Chief Archon
Book of Jubilees 10 states – that at the Flood – satan begged for 10% of the Nephilim to remain to assist satan in his task – God allows 10% to remain
First this remaining 10% fathered the Rephiem of Canaan – but once they died their spirits are trapped on/in earth as evil spirits
All archon function as satan
not all satans are archon – example God / Peter
Jewish - Jewish Encyclopedia - SATAN:
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan
By: Rabbi Joseph Jacobs, and Rabbi Ludwig Blau
Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied
(1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4);
(2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]).
(3) The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known.
Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God
(4) Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser.
(5) Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He cannot be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity;
Jewish – war in heaven
Jer 4:22 For my people are foolish, they know me not; they are sottish children, and they have no understanding; they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved to and fro. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful field was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of Jehovah, and before his fierce anger. 27 For thus saith Jehovah, The whole land shall be a desolation; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and I have not repented, neither will I turn back from it.
Before light – (had to be before Gen 1:3) before man all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of Jehovah, and before his fierce anger.
Formation of choshek – Gen 1:2
Jer4:27 For thus saith Jehovah, The whole land shall be a desolation; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and I have not repented, neither will I turn back from it.
As for satan – Jewish = Gnostic
Queen Street Baptist Church
Canadian babtist of Onterio and Qubec
www.stephenjbedard.com/2017/02/23/when-was-the-war-in-heaven/
What is happening is fairly clear. But where in the timeline of history does this appear? Here are the three main options:
1- Beginning of time (the original fall of Satan)
2- Crucifixion of Jesus.
3- End times (just before Jesus returns).
When I teach on Revelation and ask my students, the majority usually choose the first option. They see this as a description of Satan’s fall, his original rebellion with God. This is often because this story is connected with a passage in Isaiah 14. Many see this as describing Satan’s (Lucifer) rebellion from God. However, I’m not convinced that Isaiah 14 has anything to do with Satan. See my post: Is Lucifer the Proper Name for the Devil?
What we need to remember is that as late as the time of Job, Satan still had access to heaven. There is no reason to believe his casting out of heaven had to happen at the very beginning.
With the victory in heaven, we read this: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah.” (Revelation 12:10) When did that happen? That doesn’t seem to describe events before the Garden of Eden.
John also describes for us what happened after the dragon was cast down: “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.” (Revelation 12:17) The ones that the dragon declares war on are the followers of Jesus.
I have come to the conclusion that the war of heaven actually took place when Jesus was on the cross.
Who - satan
What - war in heaven / rebellion
When - actually took place when Jesus was on the cross.
Why - no comment
Note - Isa 14 has nothing to do with satan
The Literature Ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church - War in Heaven
publishing.adventist.org/mission-365/glow-tracts/war-in-heaven/
Did you know that the very first war ever fought is recorded to have taken place in the unlikeliest place? The Bible tells us that “there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.” Revelation 12:7-8. How did this war begin and what was it over? The answer to these questions reveals the reason behind the unrest plaguing planet earth, as well as the human heart.
The prophet Ezekiel gives us insight into this first war and Satan’s rebellion against God. Lucifer, described as “the anointed cherub that covers”, was “perfect” when he was created until “iniquity was found” in him. Ezekiel 28:14-15. This position of covering cherub (or angel) reveals much about Lucifer’s rebellion.
Grace Memorial Baptist Church
Fredericton, NB, Canada.
considerthegospel.org/2012/09/23/why-did-god-create-a-devil/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjubZ-d_U6QIV2vvjBx0f2wdhEAAYBCAAEgKPWfD_BwE
In fact the Bible records that God actually created a powerful, intelligent, and beautiful angelic being (the chief among all angels) called Lucifer (meaning ‘Shining One’) – and that he was very good. But Lucifer also had a will with which he could freely choose. A passage in Isaiah 14 records the choice before him.
Lucifer’s beauty, wisdom and might – all the good things created in him by God – led him to pride. His pride led to his rebellion and fall, but he never lost (and thus still retains) any of his power and traits. He is leading a cosmic revolt against his Creator to see who will be God.
Picture Lucifer being created and becoming conscious sometime in creation week, somewhere in the cosmos. All he knows is that now he exists and is self-aware, and there is also another Being who claims to have created him and all the cosmos. But how does Lucifer know that this claim is true? Perhaps, this alleged creator popped into existence in the cosmos just before Lucifer had popped into existence. And because this ‘creator’ arrived earlier on the scene, so to speak, he was (perhaps) more powerful and (perhaps) more knowledgeable than he was – but then again perhaps not. Could it be that both he and the alleged creator had both popped into existence? Lucifer could only accept God’s Word to him that He had created Him and that God himself was eternal and infinite. And in his pride he chose to believe the fantasy that he had birthed in his own mind.
Who – your satan
What – rebellion
When – creation week – in the beginning
Why – Ezk 28 and Isa PRIDE and ARROGANCE + Free willing angels
Note - their explanation of satan’s original sin is very GNOSTIC
Note - two different Baptist groups don’t even agree
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS / Mormon)
War in Heaven
This term arises out of Rev. 12:7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14:12–20; Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:4–13; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37; see also Rev. 12:9; Abr. 3:24–28).
The warfare is continued in mortality in the conflict between right and wrong, between the gospel and false principles, etc. The same contestants and the same issues are doing battle, and the same salvation is at stake.
Who – Lucifer of Isa 14 and Ezk 28
What – war broke out
When - in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God.
Why - because 1/3rd of the angels refused to accept Jesus Christ as savior for man
The National Council of the Churches of Christ
www.enterthebible.org/Controls/feature/tool_etb_resource_display/resourcebox.aspx?selected_rid=214&original_id=66
War breaks out in heaven, and Satan is thrown down by the archangel Michael and his allies. This great conflict occurs after the Messiah is taken up to God's throne. It was understood that Satan once was able to make accusations against people before God (Job 1:6-12), but after Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension, Satan has been barred from the heavenly throne room. Moreover, the vision shows that Satan lashes out on the earth because he is angry at having lost out in heaven. Satan is like a caged animal who tries to do as much damage as possible in the space he has available. Evil is present and active on earth, but it is not all-powerful.
According to some Christian traditions, Satan rebelled against God and was thrown out of heaven at the beginning of time. This is a way of explaining how evil came into the world that was created to be good. For some, it accounts for the presence of the serpent who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden. The story of Satan's fall at the beginning of time is not actually found in the Bible, although it is based in part on Isaiah 14:12-15, which compares an arrogant tyrant to a star falling from heaven.
Who – Isa 14 satan
What – war in heaven
When – after Christ was crucified
Why – after the resurrection the Bride is in heaven and satan is not allowed to oppose / accuse them in heaven
Note - Isaiah 14:12-15, which compares an arrogant tyrant to a star falling from heaven – and nothing to do with satan
Catholic answers forum – war in heaven
forums.catholic.com/t/war-in-heaven/55875
My understanding… and this could be wrong so take it with a grain of salt… is that the war in heaven took place very soon after god created the Angels.
Explanation I have heard goes something like this,
god creates the universe, and all the angels
God reveals to them his overall plan for man, the universe, and such
Since the angels are able to process these things much better and faster than man, almost immediately, there were angels that couldn’t fathom man being above them, especially if they are to be the sinful creatures they are, so the angels that couldn’t understand revolted…
Everything happened though very quickly…
From a separate post – same site
When God was asking the Angels if they would serve him, Satan said “I will not serve”.
Who - satan
What - revolt
when - very soon after god created the Angels.
Why - one angel could not understand why man gets to be above angels
Note - it happened very quickly
Note - satan said - I will not serve (no scripture reference provided - courious)
Answers in Genesis - What about Satan and the Origin of Evil?
answersingenesis.org/angels-and-demons/satan/what-about-satan-and-the-origin-of-evil
Was Satan Originally a Fallen Angel from Heaven?
Satan is mentioned in conjunction with angels (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 12:9) and the “sons of God” (Job 1:6, 2:1), which many believe to be angels. Although no Bible verse actually states that he was originally an angel, he is called a cherub in Ezekiel 28:16. The meaning of cherub is uncertain, though it is usually thought of as an angelic or heavenly being. (Ezekiel 28 is discussed in more detail later.)
In 2 Corinthians 11:14, we find that Satan masquerades as an angel of light—another allusion to his angel-like status:
And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Isaiah 14:12:
Satan sinned when pride overtook him and he fell from perfection (Ezekiel 28:15–17). When was this? The Bible doesn’t give an exact answer either, but deductions can again be made from (Isaiah 14:12).
When he sinned, he was cast from heaven (Isaiah 14:12). This must have been after day 6 of creation week because God pronounced everything very good (Genesis 1:31). Otherwise, God would have pronounced Satan’s rebellion very good; yet throughout Scripture, God is absolute that sin is detestable in His eyes.
Who - satan Ezk 28 and Isa 14
What - cast from heaven
When - after day 6 of creation
Why - Satan sinned when pride overtook him
I want to say something about Ken Ham - I didn’t know he was Australian
Ken Ham left a position as a public school science teacher in Queensland, Australia, in 1979
Sunnybank Baptist in Brisbane, the pastor and deacons laid hands on Ken and Mally to set them apart to the work of what Ken was to eventually call the “Creation Science Foundation” (cofounded by John Mackay).
In 1986, the Australian board of CSF believed that Mally and Ken had a calling from the Lord to move to the United States. Ken was loaned as a speaker to Dr. Henry Morris’s Institute for Creation Research (ICR) in California to help popularize ICR’s creation message around America
I have the $350 3 volume set from the ICR - what a waste of money
Ken Ham has done more to discredit the faith than most preachers
He went on national television to debate Bill Nye the Science Guy
Bill Nye had years of experience presenting views to a television audience
Bill Nye had years of experience speaking about science
Ken Ham has years of experience speaking to a closed - pro-Christian audience
Ken Ham uses Biblical vocabulary
Bill Nye made a fool of Ken Ham - Live on TV
The Creation Institutes Museum closed afterwards
Still trying to get it back open
Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham - The Short Version
youtu.be/HA3E8wpBO_I
Islam
Iblis was created an angel from smoke
Man was created from the earth
Allah - blesses man for obedience and man is raised higher than the angels
Who - Iblis = satan
What - rebellion
When - when Allah blessed man (back in the beginning)
Why - because of jealousy about man
Note - Allah created the Jinn from fire to serve Iblis - very Gnostic
Note - the righteous in Islam are promised 72 mansions once in heaven - curious Gnostics say the archon multiplies into 7 then 12 with 72 domains each
Gnostic take of Islam - Allah is satan - or at least a sar / prince / general in the archon force
The Koran itself declares that Allah is the great deceiver
And there is no God but Allah and God has no son
The very definition of the anti-Christ behaving just like the archon
Recap = Christian make no separation between satan and the devil / beast / dragon
Gnostics say - the dragon / beast / devil = the Chief Archon
Gnostic say - satan = any being serving in that function
My commentary – people pick and choose individual verses to support their differing views – everyone has a verse they can miss-apply anywhere they want
As a Gnostic – I reject any doctrine that is developed by man – after the 12 stopped writing
If it didn’t exist at the time of the First Christians – it doesn’t exist
I choose to look at the whole of information before me – and weight it according to source
If God said – it is solid
If Jesus said – it is also solid because Christ is the image of the unimaginable God
If the HS says it – same answer – HS = God at a distance / or through a distance
If it is within the Tanak – perfect
If it is within the Talmud – as long as it support the Tanak
If it is in the NT – not 100% perfect –
If it was written by someone who actually knew Jesus, walked with Jesus, saw the transfiguration or resurrection – who saw Jesus for the 50 days following Passover / Resurrection
The First Christians – yes – I value what they have to saw for several reasons – authorship is just one
Whatever Rome – then Calvin – then Daniel Webster – adds or subtracts after the fact is BUNK
Absolutely the biggest mistake is miss-identifying the players
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
What I choose to add to my own personal cosmology
Who - G1228 – διάβολος / diabolos / the devil
The dragon beast is also called the devil and a satan
Why call the beast, who is the devil, a satan – because satan is a verb / a function
They act as satans
Thanks to Robert – even God acted like a satan to Balaam
Gnostics say – I can be your satan – and you can ne my satan if we hinder one another
All theologians say, Abraham, Moses, Joseph, and even Cyrus were Christ figures of the OT
Gnostics also say – You can be my Christ – and I could be yours – if we facilitate salvation
God is the satan – or satan is a servant of the Lord?
Is each reference to satan throughout scripture referring to the very same angel?
What about God and Balaam?
Perhaps any servant of the Lord being the VERB can be called the NOUN
Gnostic –
Who – The Chief Archon = the Beast / The Dragon
What -– choshek crept into creation – Gen 1:2
When - Sometime in the aion / age of the Genesis Gap / the First aion / age
Therefore - Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light
Why / How – God created everything,
However James 3:13 tells us that God doesn’t do the ra Himself
So – to complete the will of God – the Chief Archon was created by the HS
Thus the expression – the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing
The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library
When this First Archon opened his eyes – he thought himself alone and said :
Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
God responded with the light of Gen 1:3
The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library - continued
And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.
Note - The Chief ASrchon sinned with his very first though - a liar from the beginning Jn 8:44
This is the origin of the choshek, the Chief Archon (the devil)
Christian vocabulary the devil angel
elohiym = angel – therefore the devil elohiym
This Chief Archon (devil elohiym) then formed offspring within the darkness = archon
In fact he fathered 7 that fathered 12 that have 72 domains / realms – each with its own ruler / archon
Offspring of the devil elohiym = bane elohiym = archon – offspring of the devil / Chief Archon
Book of Jubilees 10 states – that at the Flood – satan begged for 10% of the Nephilim to remain to assist satan in his task – God allows 10% to remain
First this remaining 10% fathered the Rephiem of Canaan – but once they died their spirits are trapped on/in earth as evil spirits
All archon function as satan
not all satans are archon – example God / Peter
Jewish - Jewish Encyclopedia - SATAN:
www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13219-satan
By: Rabbi Joseph Jacobs, and Rabbi Ludwig Blau
Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied
(1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4);
(2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]).
(3) The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known.
Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God
(4) Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser.
(5) Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He cannot be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity;
Jewish – war in heaven
Jer 4:22 For my people are foolish, they know me not; they are sottish children, and they have no understanding; they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was waste and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved to and fro. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful field was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of Jehovah, and before his fierce anger. 27 For thus saith Jehovah, The whole land shall be a desolation; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and I have not repented, neither will I turn back from it.
Before light – (had to be before Gen 1:3) before man all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of Jehovah, and before his fierce anger.
Formation of choshek – Gen 1:2
Jer4:27 For thus saith Jehovah, The whole land shall be a desolation; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and I have not repented, neither will I turn back from it.
As for satan – Jewish = Gnostic
Queen Street Baptist Church
Canadian babtist of Onterio and Qubec
www.stephenjbedard.com/2017/02/23/when-was-the-war-in-heaven/
What is happening is fairly clear. But where in the timeline of history does this appear? Here are the three main options:
1- Beginning of time (the original fall of Satan)
2- Crucifixion of Jesus.
3- End times (just before Jesus returns).
When I teach on Revelation and ask my students, the majority usually choose the first option. They see this as a description of Satan’s fall, his original rebellion with God. This is often because this story is connected with a passage in Isaiah 14. Many see this as describing Satan’s (Lucifer) rebellion from God. However, I’m not convinced that Isaiah 14 has anything to do with Satan. See my post: Is Lucifer the Proper Name for the Devil?
What we need to remember is that as late as the time of Job, Satan still had access to heaven. There is no reason to believe his casting out of heaven had to happen at the very beginning.
With the victory in heaven, we read this: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah.” (Revelation 12:10) When did that happen? That doesn’t seem to describe events before the Garden of Eden.
John also describes for us what happened after the dragon was cast down: “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.” (Revelation 12:17) The ones that the dragon declares war on are the followers of Jesus.
I have come to the conclusion that the war of heaven actually took place when Jesus was on the cross.
Who - satan
What - war in heaven / rebellion
When - actually took place when Jesus was on the cross.
Why - no comment
Note - Isa 14 has nothing to do with satan
The Literature Ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church - War in Heaven
publishing.adventist.org/mission-365/glow-tracts/war-in-heaven/
Did you know that the very first war ever fought is recorded to have taken place in the unlikeliest place? The Bible tells us that “there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.” Revelation 12:7-8. How did this war begin and what was it over? The answer to these questions reveals the reason behind the unrest plaguing planet earth, as well as the human heart.
The prophet Ezekiel gives us insight into this first war and Satan’s rebellion against God. Lucifer, described as “the anointed cherub that covers”, was “perfect” when he was created until “iniquity was found” in him. Ezekiel 28:14-15. This position of covering cherub (or angel) reveals much about Lucifer’s rebellion.
Grace Memorial Baptist Church
Fredericton, NB, Canada.
considerthegospel.org/2012/09/23/why-did-god-create-a-devil/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjubZ-d_U6QIV2vvjBx0f2wdhEAAYBCAAEgKPWfD_BwE
In fact the Bible records that God actually created a powerful, intelligent, and beautiful angelic being (the chief among all angels) called Lucifer (meaning ‘Shining One’) – and that he was very good. But Lucifer also had a will with which he could freely choose. A passage in Isaiah 14 records the choice before him.
Lucifer’s beauty, wisdom and might – all the good things created in him by God – led him to pride. His pride led to his rebellion and fall, but he never lost (and thus still retains) any of his power and traits. He is leading a cosmic revolt against his Creator to see who will be God.
Picture Lucifer being created and becoming conscious sometime in creation week, somewhere in the cosmos. All he knows is that now he exists and is self-aware, and there is also another Being who claims to have created him and all the cosmos. But how does Lucifer know that this claim is true? Perhaps, this alleged creator popped into existence in the cosmos just before Lucifer had popped into existence. And because this ‘creator’ arrived earlier on the scene, so to speak, he was (perhaps) more powerful and (perhaps) more knowledgeable than he was – but then again perhaps not. Could it be that both he and the alleged creator had both popped into existence? Lucifer could only accept God’s Word to him that He had created Him and that God himself was eternal and infinite. And in his pride he chose to believe the fantasy that he had birthed in his own mind.
Who – your satan
What – rebellion
When – creation week – in the beginning
Why – Ezk 28 and Isa PRIDE and ARROGANCE + Free willing angels
Note - their explanation of satan’s original sin is very GNOSTIC
Note - two different Baptist groups don’t even agree
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS / Mormon)
War in Heaven
This term arises out of Rev. 12:7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14:12–20; Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:4–13; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37; see also Rev. 12:9; Abr. 3:24–28).
The warfare is continued in mortality in the conflict between right and wrong, between the gospel and false principles, etc. The same contestants and the same issues are doing battle, and the same salvation is at stake.
Who – Lucifer of Isa 14 and Ezk 28
What – war broke out
When - in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God.
Why - because 1/3rd of the angels refused to accept Jesus Christ as savior for man
The National Council of the Churches of Christ
www.enterthebible.org/Controls/feature/tool_etb_resource_display/resourcebox.aspx?selected_rid=214&original_id=66
War breaks out in heaven, and Satan is thrown down by the archangel Michael and his allies. This great conflict occurs after the Messiah is taken up to God's throne. It was understood that Satan once was able to make accusations against people before God (Job 1:6-12), but after Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension, Satan has been barred from the heavenly throne room. Moreover, the vision shows that Satan lashes out on the earth because he is angry at having lost out in heaven. Satan is like a caged animal who tries to do as much damage as possible in the space he has available. Evil is present and active on earth, but it is not all-powerful.
According to some Christian traditions, Satan rebelled against God and was thrown out of heaven at the beginning of time. This is a way of explaining how evil came into the world that was created to be good. For some, it accounts for the presence of the serpent who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden. The story of Satan's fall at the beginning of time is not actually found in the Bible, although it is based in part on Isaiah 14:12-15, which compares an arrogant tyrant to a star falling from heaven.
Who – Isa 14 satan
What – war in heaven
When – after Christ was crucified
Why – after the resurrection the Bride is in heaven and satan is not allowed to oppose / accuse them in heaven
Note - Isaiah 14:12-15, which compares an arrogant tyrant to a star falling from heaven – and nothing to do with satan
Catholic answers forum – war in heaven
forums.catholic.com/t/war-in-heaven/55875
My understanding… and this could be wrong so take it with a grain of salt… is that the war in heaven took place very soon after god created the Angels.
Explanation I have heard goes something like this,
god creates the universe, and all the angels
God reveals to them his overall plan for man, the universe, and such
Since the angels are able to process these things much better and faster than man, almost immediately, there were angels that couldn’t fathom man being above them, especially if they are to be the sinful creatures they are, so the angels that couldn’t understand revolted…
Everything happened though very quickly…
From a separate post – same site
When God was asking the Angels if they would serve him, Satan said “I will not serve”.
Who - satan
What - revolt
when - very soon after god created the Angels.
Why - one angel could not understand why man gets to be above angels
Note - it happened very quickly
Note - satan said - I will not serve (no scripture reference provided - courious)
Answers in Genesis - What about Satan and the Origin of Evil?
answersingenesis.org/angels-and-demons/satan/what-about-satan-and-the-origin-of-evil
Was Satan Originally a Fallen Angel from Heaven?
Satan is mentioned in conjunction with angels (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 12:9) and the “sons of God” (Job 1:6, 2:1), which many believe to be angels. Although no Bible verse actually states that he was originally an angel, he is called a cherub in Ezekiel 28:16. The meaning of cherub is uncertain, though it is usually thought of as an angelic or heavenly being. (Ezekiel 28 is discussed in more detail later.)
In 2 Corinthians 11:14, we find that Satan masquerades as an angel of light—another allusion to his angel-like status:
And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Isaiah 14:12:
Satan sinned when pride overtook him and he fell from perfection (Ezekiel 28:15–17). When was this? The Bible doesn’t give an exact answer either, but deductions can again be made from (Isaiah 14:12).
When he sinned, he was cast from heaven (Isaiah 14:12). This must have been after day 6 of creation week because God pronounced everything very good (Genesis 1:31). Otherwise, God would have pronounced Satan’s rebellion very good; yet throughout Scripture, God is absolute that sin is detestable in His eyes.
Who - satan Ezk 28 and Isa 14
What - cast from heaven
When - after day 6 of creation
Why - Satan sinned when pride overtook him
I want to say something about Ken Ham - I didn’t know he was Australian
Ken Ham left a position as a public school science teacher in Queensland, Australia, in 1979
Sunnybank Baptist in Brisbane, the pastor and deacons laid hands on Ken and Mally to set them apart to the work of what Ken was to eventually call the “Creation Science Foundation” (cofounded by John Mackay).
In 1986, the Australian board of CSF believed that Mally and Ken had a calling from the Lord to move to the United States. Ken was loaned as a speaker to Dr. Henry Morris’s Institute for Creation Research (ICR) in California to help popularize ICR’s creation message around America
I have the $350 3 volume set from the ICR - what a waste of money
Ken Ham has done more to discredit the faith than most preachers
He went on national television to debate Bill Nye the Science Guy
Bill Nye had years of experience presenting views to a television audience
Bill Nye had years of experience speaking about science
Ken Ham has years of experience speaking to a closed - pro-Christian audience
Ken Ham uses Biblical vocabulary
Bill Nye made a fool of Ken Ham - Live on TV
The Creation Institutes Museum closed afterwards
Still trying to get it back open
Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham - The Short Version
youtu.be/HA3E8wpBO_I
Islam
Iblis was created an angel from smoke
Man was created from the earth
Allah - blesses man for obedience and man is raised higher than the angels
Who - Iblis = satan
What - rebellion
When - when Allah blessed man (back in the beginning)
Why - because of jealousy about man
Note - Allah created the Jinn from fire to serve Iblis - very Gnostic
Note - the righteous in Islam are promised 72 mansions once in heaven - curious Gnostics say the archon multiplies into 7 then 12 with 72 domains each
Gnostic take of Islam - Allah is satan - or at least a sar / prince / general in the archon force
The Koran itself declares that Allah is the great deceiver
And there is no God but Allah and God has no son
The very definition of the anti-Christ behaving just like the archon
Recap = Christian make no separation between satan and the devil / beast / dragon
Gnostics say - the dragon / beast / devil = the Chief Archon
Gnostic say - satan = any being serving in that function