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Post by Dave on Apr 19, 2021 7:00:46 GMT -5
D" Churches that preach Jesus Christ cannot be God – there is no such thing as spirit – it is all about biology – the only goal is the grave R Again you write cryptic words to mock.
Sorry if I was cryptic
LET ME BE VERY CLEAR! - I DENY ANY DOCTRINE that preaches 1- There is more than One True God 2- Jesus Christ cannot be God 3- there is no such thing as spirit – man has no soul – man is just biology with memories 4- the only goal is the grave – the promise of FIRST FRUITS is for others – not us 5- being Born Again is a Joke – to be filled with the Spirit is a laughing Joke to you You make fun of the examples I share – you scoff and deny that anyone can have these experiences
SDA theology as you present it is anti-Christian It opposes – all mainstream spiritual Judaism and/or Christianity And we all know who the opposer is - he is central to all of your doctrine
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2021 13:05:48 GMT -5
Oh I am sorry. This is the first time I have ever heard of Jesus Christ actually being the Father in a different expression of GOD. Also I do not make fun of your experiences you share. Sorry if you feel that way. I have tried to find a website that expresses your view www.findshepherd.com/is-jesus-gods-son.htmlThis one does , please read this and correct me, is this your view? Than there is this view, similar to mine. www.gotquestions.org/God-Jesus-same-person.htmlPlease read this and see the differences between us. Are you saying that modalism or Oneness theology is the only possibility of elohiym, and all other ideas are false? Ain't you being a little biased in your opinion? And now you refuse to discuss such things? These links are interesting and took me some time to find them. I did not find links that specifically come from SDA, I am trying to be fair with your view. To me the Hebrew word "imrah" means the WORD personified. That means a messenger personified the WORDS of the FATHER. Not an angel, not another being, but only one who is equally as divine and was eternal as the Father is from eternity could do this. But why must this be this way, like adding another god, as you claim. You do not understand the Hebrew words of love, are written as two love words, not one. Another idea is amanuah, the term means to support another being by using His words, not your own words. Notice the torah example where the word imrah is used in the OT: Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Here in this passage are the three functional descriptors of elohiym, the ben (son) the ruwach (HS) and the eloah (the Father) , all listed by name. And in this passage is also imrah (the Words of the Father personified) Or should we read this as , "every word of the Father is pure, the Father is a shield unto them that put their trust in the Father. So why does the verse before mention a ben, a Son of Elohiym? In the NT we find Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Imrah, and the Imrah was with Elohiym, and the Imrah was Elohiym. Question : Does the LXX treat eloah correctly in the Greek? or do we lose this Hebrew in Greek translations? What Greek word is eloah? I notice in the LXX, we lose the Hebrew word imrah, and we get logus, a word that is dabar. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 20, 2021 6:21:05 GMT -5
This is the first time I have ever heard of Jesus Christ actually being the Father in a different expression of GOD(google) The largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo and the Iglesia ni Cristo, though there are a number of other smaller groups, including Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Unitarian Christians, Unitarian Universalist ChristiansI guess we should add SDA to this list of Christian cultsI have tried to find a website that expresses your view(google) What is the Christian trinity About 51,000,000 results (0.61 seconds)www.findshepherd.com/is-jesus-gods-son.htmlThis one does , please read this and correct me, is this your view?“When the incarnate Lord Jesus came to do the work of redemption of mankind, God became the Son of man, appearing and doing work among men. He not only opened the Age of Grace, but also initiated a new age in which God came personally into the human world to live alongside man.” YES – this is the TRINTY every Christian I have ever met believes this except youThan there is this view, similar to mine. www.gotquestions.org/God-Jesus-same-person.htmlPlease read this and see the differences between us. First it says – “If this question means to ask “Is Jesus really God?” or “Is Jesus God in the flesh?” then the answer would be “Yes—Jesus is fully divine. He has all the attributes of God” (see Colossians 2:9). However, the question could be interpreted another way, which would require a different answer. Theologically speaking, Jesus and the Father are different Persons of the Trinity. They are one in nature and essence, but they are different in personhood.” Then it called the idea of modality errorThis is the deceptionThey are one in essence – but not modales·sence - the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character. Similar: quintessence, soul, spirit, ethos, life, lifeblood, core There is only one E – and man can experience that E as m (visible) or c2 (invisible) There is only one core – one spirit There is only One true God Can you call m as one mode of the E - sure - or one expression since it is a spoke word Can you call the c2 as one mode of the E - sure - or one expression since it is a spoken word Can you call the E as a mode of the m or the c2 - NO - and this is subordination The E is greater than either the m or the c2 But the m is 100% E - as well as the c2 is 100% E Ain't you being a little biased in your opinion? And now you refuse to discuss such things?Yes I am – There is only One true God –Not a family of 3 or more seperate gods working together I will never accept a pantheon of gods like some ancient pagan
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2021 13:51:58 GMT -5
Consider these website Dave answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2013/12/warning-modalist-heresy-of-itzhak.htmlWarning: The Modalist Heresy of Itzhak Shapira Itzhak Shapira is a Messianic Rabbi who runs Ahavat Ammi Ministries and is the author of the book "The Kosher Pig", a book panned by the Orthodox Community in Judaism.
Recently the Answering-Islam Facebook page had issued a warning that Shapira does not teach the Trinity, but an ancient heresy called Modalism.
Modalists deny the Trinity yet acknowledge Yeshua or Jesus as God. The problem is that the unity of the individual persons is taken to the extreme where Jesus is the same person as the Father or where they are merely different manifestations of God. On a side note although Oneness advocate Roger Perkins claimed he acknowledged that the Father and the Son as distinct persons, I am not sure what he means by that in light of his denial of the Trinity.
(However, I recently discovered that there are two types of Modalist, Synonymous and Successive. Successive means the Father, Son and Spirit exist at different points, whereas Synonymous means they exist at the same time but are not three distinct persons)
Back to Shapira, the "rabbi" had recently spent time in a video responding to Rabbi Yisroel Blumenthal on objections he raised with respect to the Trinity.
Although Shapira spends the majority of the video trying to demonstrate that YHWH or Ha Shem is a compound unity by quoting the Zohar, a Kabbalistic text, and quoting from the TANAKH.
However, 13 minutes roughly in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu4EWiw9Os4), Shapira says the following: "The Zohar explains that God is truly a compound unity, ok, and to argue that this is not is arguing against Judaism. That is why when a man approached Yeshua and asked him what is the greatest commandment, Yeshua replied in Mark 12:29 Shema Yisrael Adonai Eleheinu Adonai Echad. Christianity on the other hand misunderstood it's compound unity and understood that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all three different personas, well that is not true either. That is not the point in my book and that's not what I believe. I believe that God is a compound God, he is ONE and he is absolute, without beginning and end, but at the same time he can manifest himself in anyway he chooses for".
And it is ALL downhill from here.
As I have said before, The Trinity teaches that in the very being or essence of God, there exist Three Distinct persons, Not three beings in one being or three persons in one person (like Ahmed Deedat falsely claimed). There are not three seperate Gods, but one Eternal God which the TANAKH and the NT make very clear. This is clearly something denied by Shapira.------------------- trinities.org/blog/reader-question-about-modalism-dale/. Modalism is a friend to monotheism, because it reduces the status, as it were, of one or more of the persons.
A traditional Jew would see your three expressions idea as polythesism. You are simply redefining trinity into a Jewish idea of modalism, so you can become monothesim. -------------------- www.academia.edu/6983399/The_Jewish_Nature_of_the_Doctrine_of_the_TrinityAN interesting read J esus-devotion represents an “astonishing” “mutation” within Jewish monotheism, such that Jesus was accorded worship and divine honor in a“binitarian,” yet still monotheistic, framework, and a completely unique framework at thatThis is what your three expressions idea of one being is doing, you are modifying Jewish monotheism. Some have gone on to have less andless to do the with the church as an institution which is allegedly full ofpagan corruptions from the “Jewish original,” and encourage non-JewishChristians to keep the Law of Moses and to live more and more like Jews.This has caused not a little trouble in congregations and even splits, and you may have met people like this. More often that not, for some reason Iencounter more of them in areas where there are few Jews, rural Arkansasor small towns in Iowa. If you have no idea what I am talking about, allthe better that you have not seen this in your own churchHmm? Some Jews regard Christianity’s claim to be a monotheistic religion with grave suspicion, both because of the doctrine of the trinity (how can three equal one?) and because of Christianity’s core belief that God took bodily form. Do Jews understand echad? Maimonides, known also in Judaism asthe Rambam, 10 used Aristotelian categories 11 to theologize about God.Maimonides came in for severe criticism in his own day, but his theology as articulated especially in his Thirteen Principles of Faith eventually became the bedrock of Orthodox Jewish theology.His Second and Third Principles concern us here. The Second Principle states that God is an absolute unity, unique compared to any other unity... So the precepts of men become fundamental to the Jew? not torah itself? A Danish Lutheran theologian once asked me, “Is there a separate messianic Jewish theology?” He meant to ask if I was implying that somehow there different truths for different groups. Of course the answer is no
How sad?? Richard Harvey notes that“Judaism presents an ‘outward face’ which rejects the possibility of the Trinity, whilst in internal debate allows for the plural unity of God to be expressed in at times controversial ways.” 26 Not only does study of the Jewish tradition show us how the Bible was understood by latergenerations, but it also allows us to step “inside” to hear relevant internal discussions that we would not otherwise hear.
Yes this does go on because the torah speaks... Just as we contrast the biblical triune God with the gods of idolatry, we would also proceed to contrast the Trinity with both Greco-Roman paganism and medieval Jewish views, the latter of which inform modern Judaism. We would need to underscore that the Trinity is not idolatrous, a continuing charge leveled by the Jewish community, and moreover that contemporary Jewish theology concerning the single, undivided,numerically one God is more indebted to Aristotelian philosophy than to the biblical background.
Yes, pagan gods are never echad, as elohiym is describing echad. There is plenty of debate in this sphere Dave, lots of pondering going on. Most Jews would see your view as polytheism, and modalism is not a trinity view, however you twist your definition, but I could be wrong. I have not read all the material on this theme. Most Christians leave the mystery alone, how can three become one? echad, a Hebrew term few understand. T he Second Principle states that God is an absolute unity, unique compared to any other unity... This Rabbi might be right, a sinless divine being using echad in ways our sinful world cannot understand. Could it be each family member is dependent upon the other as love requires a rational circuit? I will leave this ponder for you and others who like to read mysteries. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 20, 2021 14:23:04 GMT -5
Consider these website Dave
Stop seeking the approval of men and their doctrines
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being.
Joh 14:9 Yeshua said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time, and you haven’t come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2021 14:36:21 GMT -5
Rich Robinson <rich.robinson@jewsforjesus.org> To: Rob Thompson
Thu, 22 Apr at 2:49 am
Hi Rob,
I'd say rather that human families are metaphorically speaking, like God. But the trinity is based on a whole series of things in the NT and I believe it accurately reflects what the Scripture teaches about God. Of course there are books on that subject so I don't need to rehearse the reasons here.
And no, most Messianic Jews are not modalists, most are trinitarian.
Best, Rich
Seems to me most Messanic Jews are trinity supporters, not modalists. Rich is a professor from Jews for Jesus. org
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 21, 2021 15:13:41 GMT -5
Absolutely agree - TRINITY - There is only one God man experiences Him in two ways - invisible and visible The Jews have always had only One True God – the Creator The Jews have always had a duality - Male God on His throne and the female expression of God as the Spirit shekinah that moves among the people The agl simple add the fact that it is Christ who is the Creator and sends the Comforter among the people Therefore God = Christ / shekinah = Comforter = Spirit Absolutely agree - TRINITY - There is only one God man experiences Him in two ways - invisible and visible Judaism + the Messiah = Messianic Jewish Trinity Absolutely agree – TRINITYYour attempt to play vocabulary games is an insult to the faith Your attempt to tear down and cast doubt – is obvious 99% of Christians believe in / accept the Trinity – except for a small group of Christian cults (google) The largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo and the Iglesia ni Cristo, though there are a number of other smaller groups, including Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Unitarian Christians, Unitarian Universalist Christians and And Robert
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Post by Dave on Apr 24, 2021 13:26:11 GMT -5
You also claim to be a trinity supporter. This is false too. Modalism is not the same as the idea of trinity. I showed you the historical debate over this idea centuries ago, and so the early churches banished Gnostic supporters from their ideas. You twist modalism into a kind of trinity idea so you can accept trinity as well. Absolutely agree - TRINITY - There is only one God man experiences Him in two ways - invisible and visible The Jews have always had only One True God – the Creator The Jews have always had a duality - Male God on His throne and the female expression of God as the Spirit shekinah that moves among the people The agl simple add the fact that it is Christ who is the Creator and sends the Comforter among the people Therefore God = Christ / shekinah = Comforter = Spirit Absolutely agree - TRINITY - There is only one God man experiences Him in two ways - invisible and visible Judaism + the Messiah = Messianic Jewish Trinity Absolutely agree – TRINITYYour attempt to play vocabulary games is an insult to the faith Your attempt to tear down and cast doubt – is obvious 99% of Christians believe in / accept the Trinity – except for a small group of Christian cults (google) The largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo and the Iglesia ni Cristo, though there are a number of other smaller groups, including Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Unitarian Christians, Unitarian Universalist Christians and And Robert
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2021 16:14:08 GMT -5
Show me any Jewish website that would accept your view of GOD in this way? Modalism is part of monotheism, which is Jewish. Trinity is not Jewish, and seen by Jews as polytheism. Christians say trinity exists in the torah, but Jews say it doesn't. It depends upon how you read certain Hebrew words, like echad My understanding is you follow modalism, which you admit you do. I follow trinity to give it a name, but really my idea is more like a family expressing love than the Catholic idea of trinity. You try to blend modalism into trinity, which you cannot do. www.sdanet.org/2. Trinity: There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)I quote straight from our public creed the 28 fundamentals we are baptized with .... So stop saying the SDA are nontrinitarian. I would say you are not following trinity, as modalism is not anything like the traditional view of trinity. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 25, 2021 22:03:18 GMT -5
Show me any Jewish website that would accept your view of GOD in this way? Modalism is part of monotheism, which is Jewish. So you wan me to show you a “Jewish Soutce” stating a “Christian Position”Trinity is not Jewish, and seen by Jews as polytheism.Jews ate dualist – The male Father, who is the Creator, and the female shekinah that goes out among the people It is the agl that teaches us that Christ is the Creator Robert – you even make the point of (YHWY-YESUAH) within the ahl Christians say trinity exists in the torah, but Jews say it doesn't.The Jews who argue this do not accept Jesus as the Christ – DUHI follow trinity Then why have you been arguing against the word all this time How is your argument against your own view support Christianity in any way?You have been attacking the concept of the Trinity all this time Instead – you have been arguing 3 gods in a family so they can love one another You admit that everyone you share your views with – says you have a pantheon So stop saying the SDA are nontrinitarian.IF YOU WISH TO TAKE ISSUE WITH MY WORDS - PLEASE QUOTE ME ACCURATELY 99% of Christians believe in / accept the Trinity – except for a small group of Christian cults This is the first time I have ever heard of Jesus Christ actually being the Father in a different expression of GOD(google) The largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo and the Iglesia ni Cristo, though there are a number of other smaller groups, including Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Unitarian Christians, Unitarian Universalist Christians And RobertThe only thing I know about the SDA is what you have taught me All this time you have been trying to sell your family of three gods Now you say you defend the Trinity So confusingI donlt think you understand what you believe
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 13:51:27 GMT -5
The SDA church as an organization is back sliding to become more worldly and more like Catholic, hence they now have this term trinity. A term that is not a Hebrew word.
The Jews will also back slide and become more Catholic too. In fact if you follow Walter Veith, the Catholics have two sides of their religion, the public side for cattle and the private side for the true followers. Thus they seem to support Islam??
The Catholic trinity has changed over the years, since the 1600. As for myself, I see elohiym as a family of divine personalities expressing love that function as one family and one source of love, that flows. This is not polytheism because each member is dependent upon the other, just as the echad principle shows the foot is dependent upon the hand. Examples of sinless families is rare in humans, can't think of any. Maybe Isaac and Rebekah are only perfect examples?
Modalism is the idea that GOD has three expressions of the same being, hence the Father can be portrayed as the HS as feminine or as the SON as masculine.
Trinity as I understand is the idea that GOD is three persons who function as one person, and is defined to be a mystery so people leave the idea alone.
Family is the idea that GOD has different love personalities for each member of the Godhead, showing masculine love and feminine love, but not as engendered matter.
Of the three theories, only the family model is found in the torah, with the most verses are associated with this idea, hence I support this theory.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 27, 2021 12:16:02 GMT -5
LET ME BE VERY CLEAR! - I DENY ANY DOCTRINE that preaches 1- There is more than One True God 2- Jesus Christ cannot be God
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Post by Dave on Apr 28, 2021 7:25:09 GMT -5
I beg to differ. This idea is modalism, and very few Churches support this idea, who also support trinity
Argue vocabulary – it is your specialty – twist words You just come across as eristic and cantankerous – is it an effective witness style?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2021 14:24:01 GMT -5
Amazing how the devil caused this link to die, when I posted it. Here it is again: wikidiff.com/modalism/trinityAs a proper noun trinity is (christianity) in christian belief, the three persons (personae) of the godhead: father, son and holy spirit. As a noun modalism is (christianity) the doctrine that the trinity is composed of three modes or aspects of divine self-revelation, rather than three parts of god. www.zeolla.org/christian/trinity/article/modalism/part_one.htmI should have taken more time in responding to her first email to document that she was in fact expressing the doctrine of “Modalism” which is not the same as the doctrine of the Trinity. www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/a63.htmTrinitarians and modalists who attempt to discuss their differences often experience frustration. One of the reasons for this is that they are starting with different assumptions. Modalists assume that the word 'God' has the meaning of 'One Divine Person.' Trinitarians do not assume this; to the trinitarian, the word 'God' can denote any or all of the Divine Persons, depending on the context. www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-modalism.htmModalism is an ancient heresy on the nature of God dating back to the 3rd century. Today, the United Pentecostal Church (UPC) is the sole proponent of this heresy. The United Pentecostal Church has a reputation of forcing its members into blindly towing the "party line" under the threat of disfellowship, do not allow their members the freedom of independent thinking. Two of the most heretical aspects of Modalism is first, that Jesus Christ had no pre-existence before his incarnation. They take the identical "logos-theology" view that the Christadelphians teach! www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b9gHuuHc_gThis guy introduces three views. Modalism is no good he says, trinity is no good he says God is viewed as three parts that come together. Dave there are alot of websites refuting modalism. I am not twisting anything, just reading websites by dozens of others. You have the problem, not me. Modalism is NOT trinity. Our views are different, you do not support trinity view at all.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Apr 29, 2021 7:53:45 GMT -5
TrinityExo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee… Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, ... God – the father – the Creator That no man can see or comprehend The 1st dimensional singularity that is omnipotent and omniscientExo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: Joh 1:1 … and the Word was with God… The Spirit of God – which is the only Spirit that is Holy The shekinah – the female aspect of God that moves upon the people The 2nd dimensional omnipresent medium /matrix /ether of the ALLthat sustains all thingsExo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. Joh 1:1 … and the Word was God. Christ – the form of God that man can Precieve God as form = God / God in the form of a man is God Christ = God incarnate The 3 dimensional form of GodAnytime man sees God in the form of a man – it is ChristGen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; You can change the vocabulary to argue against God You can change the vocabulary to argue against Christianity You can change the language – so you have more words – to argueBut – the more you do – the more respect to looseI beg to differ. This idea is modalism, and very few Churches support this idea, who also support trinityArgue vocabulary – it is your specialty – twist wordsYou just come across as eristic and cantankerous – is it an effective witness style? There is no such thing as a family of oneAs soon as you revert to your family view – more than one god is requiredTHERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD- my response will never be any different
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