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Post by Dave on Sept 29, 2019 2:22:35 GMT -5
There is absolutely no doubt that The disobedience of one man caused many to be permanently ordained as sinners
OK so does this mean because of Adam's first sin, do we born through his DNA genetic inheritance, do we become sinners or are we born sinners? What is this verse saying exactly?
I understand Rabbi Friedman's comment about simple answers vers simplistic answers Hebrew is literal and/or figurative -
1- if Adam and Eve is a figurative parable about the first humans - then it is all figurative 2- if Adam and Eve were two individuals then our 'DNA genetic inheritance' would express itself as instinct
When dose this happen - at birth or later we become sinners 1- it will happen - it is inevitable 2- Rabbi Friedman says- God is with us in the Womb. After birth, we remember him and He is still in communion with us as babies. This is why babies are so happy. But around the 3rd month - 90 days - the Mind begins to desire - carnal desire - it is inevitable - cannot avoid it
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2019 12:58:30 GMT -5
I have to smile Dave, your right, sometimes we get bogged down in the details.
But your understanding of kathestemi in the context is flawed, because your word meaning does not fit every other context. Your method only works for the one sentence the word is found in. You believe from your method in polysemy.
Quote: " There is absolutely no doubt that The disobedience of one man caused many to be permanently ordained as sinners
There are two kathestemi words in the sentence, and you render them only "once" in this sentence. Can you have another more consistent go at translating this very important verse for me?
Ro 5:19 wsper gar dia thV parakohV tou enoV anqrwpou amartwloi katestaqhsan oi polloi outwV kai dia thV upakohV tou enoV dikaioi katastaqhsontai oi polloi (TR)
Notice "katastaqh" and its prefix is repeated twice. Can you translate the whole sentence for me, verse 19, as a complete sentence?
QUote: " But around the 3rd month - 90 days - the Mind begins to desire - carnal desire - it is inevitable - cannot avoid it
The answer and thoughts of our Rabbi, are good, and suggest something profound from Scripture, but I want Scripture to say that... I agree we have a fallen DNA code damaged with potential epi-genetics, but "katastaqh" says more, and your method is not picking this up.
Please do your method for Romans 5:19, again for the full sentence.
When you do so, the English you write must be repeated twice, as "katastaqh" is repeated twice. No adjectives unless the Greek does this. Shalom
MAYBE you might write this? " There is absolutely no doubt that The disobedience of one man caused many to be permanently ordained as sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many ordained as righteous?"
Do you see "katastaqh" as "ordained" or "permanently ordained" or both?
dikaioi katastaqhsontai oi polloi (TR)
"straight" "katastaqh" "oi" "many" (TR)
Notice the word order of Textus Receptus.
anqrwpou amartwloi katestaqhsan oi polloi outwV kai dia thV upakohV
"man's" "amartwloi" "katastaqh" "oi" "many" "so" "and" "by" "one" "sinner"
Notice the word order of Textus Receptus, I have tried to render each word with it's English word, not sure if it words for every Greek word context. Some Greek I leave as Greek, because I don't know the meaning in English.
This is what Jeff Benner calls a mechanical translation.
However your method is not like this, I think, I would love to see the translation for the complete sentence of Romans 5:19, especially how you treat "katastaqh".
Shalom
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 14:05:57 GMT -5
I am glad you take the time to discuss your method with me. If I was face to face with you, I would love to learn this method, and add it to my own. Why? Because I find it doesn't lead one off the track, its just a different way for finding the meaning of words. And as we ponder confusion, getting a different angle from somebody else is invaluable. SO thanks for the sharing. Pity no Pastors feed us. In the Acts a Pastor or Feeder was your elder, not some paid professional who just feeds off your tithe ad doesn't do helping others. Our churches today lack nurture, or feeders who feed us.
So thank you for your sharing. I really enjoy discussing things beyond us all, in fact pondering confusion can be fun. Even though at time difficult to do.
God bless your journey. I must be off to work now.
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Post by Dave on Sept 30, 2019 17:06:43 GMT -5
Translation
This isn't rally my method - it is what I was taught
I was taught this in Greek (4 yrs) and i was taught this in Latin (2 years) All text books are the same -
Now you know why I said I play with is a brain teaser, a crossword puzzle, a math problem
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 12:11:04 GMT -5
Your signature verse has special meaning to you:
Pr 25:2 ¶ It is the glory of God to conceal a thing:
A comment by Adam Clarke
Verse 2. It is the glory of God to conceal a thing] This has been understood as referring to the revelation of God's will in his word, where there are many things concealed in parables, allegories, metaphors, similitudes, &c. And it is becoming the majesty of God so to publish his will, that it must be seriously studied to be understood, in order that the truth may be more prized when it is discovered. And if it be God's glory thus partially to conceal his purposes, it is the glory of a king to search and examine this word, that he may understand how by Him kings reign and princes decree judgment. Prophecies are partially concealed; and we cannot fully know their meaning till their accomplishment; and then the glory of God's wisdom and providence will be more particularly evident, when we see the event correspond so particularly and exactly with the prediction. I know not, however, that there are not matters in the Book of God that will not be fully opened till mortality is swallowed up of life. For here we see through a glass darkly; but there, face to face: here we know in part; but there we shall know as we also are known. On this subject I cannot withhold an extract of a letter sent to myself, by a royal and learned personage.* * His Royal Highness the Duke of Sussex. "As far as I have presumed to dive into and occupy myself with the sacred volumes, I feel satisfied of their Divine origin and truth. And I am satisfied, likewise, that they contain more matter than any one, and myself in particular, can ever aspire fully to understand. This belief, however, ought in nowise to slacken our diligence, or damp our ardour, in attempting a constant pursuit after the attainment of knowledge and truth; as we may flatter ourselves, although unable to reach the gate, we are still approaching nearer to its portals, which of itself is a great blessing." This sentiment will be approved by every pious and enlightened mind.
Shalom
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