What is Gnosticism

[Dave]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός gnostikos, "having knowledge", from γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge) is a modern name for a variety of ancient religious ideas and systems, originating in Hellenistic Judaism and the Jewish Christian milieux in the first and second century AD. Many of these systems believed that the material world is created by an emanation or 'works' of a lower god (demiurge), trapping the divine spark within the human body. This divine spark could be liberated by gnosis, spiritual knowledge acquired through direct experience. Gnosticism is not a single system, and the emphasis on direct experience allows for a wide variety of teachings, which may include but are not limited to the following:

All matter is evil, and the non-material, spirit-realm is good.
There is an unknowable God, who gave rise to many lesser spirit beings called Aeons.
The creator of the (material) universe is not the supreme god, but an inferior spirit (the Demiurge).
Gnosticism does not deal with "sin", only ignorance.
To achieve salvation, one needs gnosis(knowledge).

The Gnostic ideas and systems flourished in the Mediterranean world in the second century AD, in conjunction with and influenced by the early Christian movements and Middle Platonism. After the second century, a decline set in.

My Response

(1) All matter is evil, and the non-material, spirit-realm is good

The Treatise on the Resurrection

What, then, is the resurrection? It is always the disclosure of those who have risen. For if you remember reading in the Gospel that Elijah appeared and Moses with him, do not think the resurrection is an illusion. It is no illusion, but it is truth! Indeed, it is more fitting to say the world is an illusion, rather than the resurrection which has come into being through our Lord the Savior, Jesus Christ.

But what am I telling you now? Those who are living shall die. How do they live in an illusion? The rich have become poor, and the kings have been overthrown. Everything is prone to change. The world is an illusion! - lest, indeed, I rail at things to excess!

But the resurrection does not have this aforesaid character, for it is the truth which stands firm. It is the revelation of what is, and the transformation of things, and a transition into newness. For imperishability descends upon the perishable; the light flows down upon the darkness, swallowing it up; and the Pleroma fills up the deficiency. These are the symbols and the images of the resurrection. He it is who makes the good.

Pleroma (greek word for Elohiym + archon)

From God we came - into the Contest which is physical existence + Gen 3:15 - to God we return

(2) There is an unknowable God, who gave rise to many lesser spirit beings called Aeons.

OH - this is another subject all together - Aeons - Greek word for 'periods of time'
There is the Aeon - of creation when only the spirit realm existed
things happened then - the creation of the Cheif Archon
There is the Aeon - of creation when the Archon had full access to the Earth - before the Flood
There is the Aeon - when the archon are limited to only partial access - after the flood
There there is the Aeon - when Christ walked as a man

Lesser beings are called angels and Archon
Angels created by God -
Archons created by the Chief Archon, who was created by the Holy Spirit -
the Dragon of Rev 12 and his demons

(3) The creator of the (material) universe is not the supreme god, but an inferior spirit (the Demiurge).

Rome is in total denial of the us in let us - they can only conceive of it being Father - Son = Male - male

This is simply the end result of 2000 yrs of Roman Thought Policing

(4) Gnosticism does not deal with "sin", only ignorance.
I had not though of it in these term until now - Wiki is correct

Rome goes around tell you that everything is sin - make you guilt for breathing - I wear my sackcloth and whip myself Lord - maybe I'll pay the church a large penance

Gnosticism deals very directly with sin. Sin = death!
The point of Jesus's Gospel inst that we are all going to hell (if you believe in it)
The point is - there is a real and active afterlife - follow me to closeness with the Creator

Seeking the kingdom of heaven - is not a group effort - it is always a personal walk
Mathew 10:34-39

(5) To achieve salvation, one needs gnosis(knowledge).

Knowledge of the Creator and the path offered by the Messiah to salvation.

[Dave]

Proof of Roman manipulation

Demiurge (Wiki)
The word "demiurge" is an English word derived from demiurgus, a Latinised form of the Greek δημιουργός or dēmiourgos. It was originally a common noun meaning "craftsman" or "artisan", but gradually came to mean "producer", and eventually "creator". The philosophical usage and the proper noun derive from Plato's Timaeus, written c. 360 BC, where the demiurge is presented as the creator of the universe

A simple ancient word - craftsman / artisan
Changed into the creator by who - Plato in a secular book - not a religious text

Wonder what thought police entered Plato into Christian thinking - thereby debunking it.

Maybe the same group that gave us a Christian Dante's Infernal as hell?

I translate Greek

I have spent much time with Mathew
Mat 5:18 (KJV) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:18 ἀμὴν γὰρ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἕως ἂν παρέλθῃ ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ, ἰῶτα ἓν ἢ μία κεραία οὐ μὴ παρέλθῃ ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου ἕως ἂν πάντα γένηται.

κεραία
Feminine of a presumed derivative of the base of G2768; something horn like, that is, (specifically) the apex of a Hebrew letter (figuratively the least particle): - tittle.

What is a tittle - the smallest dot

ἰῶτα
Iota - the Greek letter i - becomes jot (why)

The first argument is that it was a Hebrew yod that became the iota
Why would any translator make a Hebrew letter into a Greek one?

There is a large debate in the texts -
⁾ is a rough breathing mark in Greek
Example - des means to see. Just like English you and an (a) to the front of the word and it negates the meaning. Example a-theos.
(a) +(des) = ades - not seen - no see
add a rough breathing mark to ades and you get = Hades

The argument is that the Greek rough breathing mark ⁾ - became i in repeated translations until someone clarified it by spelling "iota"

Outside of NT Greek - iota alone is never used
The earliest Greek lexicons are Roman - they defined it

The tern for ever and ever means eternity - only because a Roman lexicon says it does
anywhere else in Greek the expression an anion and an anion = for a time period + another time period

So for Math 5:18 - I translate it as not the smallest part of the Gospel or the Torah

Because the Torah is the Gospel

[Richard]

Agree

The Torah is the Gospel. Jesus came to teach it fully, completely, and to fulfill it; which is the Gospel

[Robert T]

In your wisdom on this text Dave, consider it from a Hebrew point of view. Why? Because all of the NT torah was originally written in Hebrew. And later was translated in Greek.

Prove of this?

Isaiah 28 and 29 are chapters dealing with how Scripture says to read Scripture.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

This is a Scripture prophecy that the original Hebrew tongue will go out translated into a new tongue. As a refreshing to new people.

I think the comments of Adam Clarke are fairly good explaining this text:


Verse 18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven] In the very commencement of his ministry, Jesus Christ teaches the instability of all visible things. "The heaven which you see, and which is so glorious, and the earth which you inhabit and love, shall pass away; for the things which are seen are temporal, proskaira, are for a time; but the things which are not seen are eternal aiwnia, ever-during," 2Co 4:18. And the WORD of the Lord endureth for ever.

One jot or one tittle] One yod, (y,) the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet. One tittle or point, keraia, either meaning those points which serve for vowels in this language, if they then existed; or the seraphs, or points of certain letters, such as r resh, or d daleth, h he, or x cheth (as the change of any of these into the other would make a most essential alteration in the sense, or, as the rabbins say, destroy the world.) Or our Lord may refer to the little ornaments which certain letters assume on their tops, which cause them to appear like small branches. The following letters only can assume coronal apices, U tsaddi-g gimel-z zain- n nun-j teth-e ayin-v shin. These, with the coronal apices, often appear in MSS.

That this saying, one jot or one tittle, is a proverbial mode of expression among the Jews, and that it expressed the meaning given to it above, is amply proved by the extracts in Lightfoot and Schoettgen. The reader will not be displeased to find a few of them here, if he can bear with the allegorical and strongly figurative language of the rabbins.

"The book of Deuteronomy came and prostrated itself before the Lord, and said: 'O Lord of the world, thou hast written in me thy law; but now, a Testament defective in some parts is defective in all. Behold, Solomon endeavours to root the letter yod out of me.' (In this text, De 17:5. Myvn hbry al lo yirbeh, nashim, he shall not multiply wives.) The holy blessed God answered, 'Solomon and a thousand such as he shall perish, but the least word shall not perish out of thee.'"

In Shir Hashirim Rabba, are these words: "Should all the inhabitants of the earth gather together, in order to whiten one feather of a crow, they could not succeed: so, if all the inhabitants of the earth should unite to abolish one y yod, which is the smallest letter in the whole law, they should not be able to effect it."

In Vayikra Rabba, s. 19, it is said: "Should any person in the words of De 6:4, Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is dxa achad, ONE Lord, change the d daleth into a r resh, he would ruin the world." [Because, in that case, the word rxa achar, would signify a strange or false God.]

"Should any one, in the words of Ex 34:14, Thou shalt worship no OTHER, rxa achar, God, change r resh into d daleth, he would ruin the world." [Because the command would then run, Thou shalt not worship the ONLY or true God.]

"Should any one in the words of Le 22:32, Neither shall ye PROFANE wllxt techelelu, my holy name, change x cheth into h he, he would ruin the world." [Because the sense of the commandment would then be, Neither shall ye PRAISE my holy name.]

"Should any one, in the words of Ps 150:6, Let every thing that hath breath PRAISE, llht tehalel, the Lord, change h he into x cheth, he would ruin the world." [Because the command would then run, Let every thing that hath breath PROFANE the Lord.]

"Should any one, in the words of Jer 5:10, They lied AGAINST the Lord, hwhyb beihovah, change b beth into k caph, he would ruin the world." [For then the words would run, They lied LIKE the Lord.]

"Should any one, in the words of Hosea, Ho 5:7, They have dealt treacherously, hwhyb beihovah, AGAINST the Lord, change b beth into k caph, he would ruin the world." [For then the words would run, They have dealt treacherously LIKE the Lord.]

"Should any one, in the words of 1Sa 2:2, There is none holy AS the Lord, change k caph into b beth, he would ruin the world." [For then the words would mean, There is no holiness IN the Lord.]

These examples fully prove that the mia keraia of our Lord, refers to the apices, points, or corners, that distinguish b beth from k caph; x cheth from h he; and r resh from d daleth. For the reader will at once perceive, how easily a k caph may be turned into a b beth; a h he into a x cheth; and a r resh into a d daleth: and he will also see of what infinite consequence it is to write and print such letters correctly.

Till all be fulfilled.] Or, accomplished. Though all earth and hell should join together to hinder the accomplishment of the great designs of the Most High, yet it shall all be in vain-even the sense of a single letter shall not be lost. The words of God, which point out his designs, are as unchangeable as his nature itself. Every sinner, who perseveres in his iniquity, shall surely be punished with separation from God and the glory of his power; and every soul that turns to God, through Christ, shall as surely be saved, as that Jesus himself hath died.

Hope this helps. Shalom my friend.

[Dave]

Sept 12, 2019 12:55:27 GMT -5 Robert T said:

(1) Dave, consider it from a Hebrew point of view. Why? Because all of the NT torah was originally written in Hebrew. And later was translated in Greek.
(2) Adam Clarke - Verse 18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven]

(3) One jot or one tittle] One yod, (y,) the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet.
That this saying, one jot or one tittle, is a proverbial mode of expression among the Jews,

(4) Till all be fulfilled.] Or, accomplished.

2- Adam Clark - love this guy - very last century

Heavens passing away - at the end of time Isa 34:4 51:6 - that hasn't happened

3- If jot and tittle are both Hebrew - what does it say of the agl - Coptic texts

4- Till all be fulfilled

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and he entered, as his custom was, into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, To-day hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

Jesus did not read the complete scripture - He stopped at the comma
Because all of Isa 61:1 and 2 have not been fulfilled

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

1- What do you mean by the NT Torah? Mathew was written in Hebrew - Luke was not!
Not even the Hebrew ahl was all originally written in Hebrew (Daniel)
I am not a linguist - these are discussions for AHR

Why do I say the Torah = the Gospel

The Law of Moses calls Israel to stand apart - dress differently - and witness to the world
How did they witness? -- Ask any uninformed foreigner to describe America - they will say Superbowl, Thanksgiving Parade, and Fireworks at the 4th of July

What did the ancient world passively know about Israel

For 500 years - 5 times a year Israel had full dress parades and spectacles

Rosh Hashanah - from the very beginning
Yom Kippur - You need to stop and reflect an atonement
Sukkot - God tabernacled twice with man - two celebrations
Pesach - Passover - 3 celebrations and start counting the Omer
Shavout - Pentecost - when the Torah came down the mountain to man

Then Ester added Purim to the middle of the story - and another 500 years the pageant was

Rosh Hashanah - from the beginning
Yom Kippur - I need to atone
Sukkot - God did and does tabernacle with man
Purim - the story of salvation
Passover
Pentecost

Then - after the ahl ended and before Christ came

Hanukkah was added to the calendar because the temple was rededicated

Isn't this the NT Gospel spoke by Jesus?
Since my birth - I needed to stop and Ponder atonement - God came for us as a spirit and as a man - He was the Passover Lamb - in the grave 3 days - after the Resurrection - Pentecost - when the Torah / Gospel is written into the hearts of man

Followed by a rededicating of your temple

[Robert T]

Nice words Dave, and kindly written.

My saying the torah is Hebrew is about reading the Greek or Daniel or whatever back to Hebrew, to align the old landmarks with the new landmarks. So when reading Luke, whether originally Hebrew or Greek, it doesn't matter, read the words and the meanings back to Hebrew first, line up the saying with the former torah (OT Hebrew) and than go forwards with the latter rain (NT Greek version of Luke) for example.

The admonition to read Scripture says :

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Reading Luke for example, or other Coptic writings, apart from Hebrew OT, we are to line up, words against words.... how is that done if the words are in different tongues? Translate them all to Hebrew first...

Why Hebrew? Because Hebrew is the former rains, than line up the lines upon lines, and read the Greek or Coptic writings after we line up everything... this way we avoid confusion... and each writing supports the other writings...hope this makes sense?

SO this text Jesus spoke about :

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy my teachings, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to complete.
18 For with support, I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, not one yod from the Hebrew letters, or one horn of power (from my teachings) shall in no wise pass from my teachings, till all be completed.

Some Christians say Jesus completed everything on the Cross. Hence the moral laws and sacrifice laws were abolished on the Cross?

I thought laws are eternal, as DNA is inherited and also eternal. SO how can Jesus abolish laws that we also inherit inside of us?

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

I would love to read this in Hebrew, it's hard in Greek. What is Paul saying here? I get the impression everytime we sin, the DNA and the epigenetics record the missing in written codes, a law against us, and that only circumcision of the flesh (ie cutting our the DNA code made in our flesh) can we hope to be fully saved and restored to be like Jesus, without sin. So how is this circumcision of the DNA flesh achieved? Not by cutting skin away...that was a symbol... the Scripture speak of circumcision of the heart...what does this mean?

Obviously Jesus removed the curse of the DNA epigenetic laws against us that war against our flesh, by dying on the cross, and allowing his life, "life for life" Scripture says, this living means He cuts out the DNA parts of our flesh and gives us a better chance of living daily in Jesus without sinning. This is how I tend to see what Paul is saying... Maybe Coptic writings may help with this?

Shalom my friend

[Richard]

Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 

The Quickening

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Once you are changed, by the indwelling of the spirit, sins of the flesh are forgiven

[Deleted]

Nice thought Richard. Well composed

Quote: Once you are changed, by the indwelling of the spirit, sins of the flesh are forgiven

This reminds me of a text:

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

What does this mean? As Science people you might like to consider

this theme "light, shadows, sin-offering, not unto death"

Rather than type or copy it over again, we have a website explaining this:

Sin-offering NOT unto death


The link falls over

Try typing http://

Copy and Paste  spiritualsprings.org/ss-759.htm 

How do you get links to work on Proboards? silly BBCode... what happened to plain HTML code?

You get confusion "about://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_156865911097612&key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&libId=k0mr3vut0102ylrr000DA1qcoj1rrdmpi9&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fponderingconfusion.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F382%2Fgnosticism%3Fpage%3D1%26scrollTo%3D2475&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fspiritualsprings.org%2Fss-759.htm&title=What%20is%20Gnosticism%20%7C%20Ponder%20a%20Discussion&txt=spiritualsprings.org%2Fss-759.htm"

No wonder I have come to love the term "pondering confusion" why can't website designers make simple code. Do I "view code" on Spiritual Springs.org and notice the simple code, no CSS, no spaghetti, keep it simple. Shalom my friends.

Shalom

[Dave]

church is selfish - it only teaches a small fraction of the whole story - of the whole cosmology



Stepping back away from Christendom -
the bigger picture yields a more complete cosmology



Ponder this

The 1% - Israel	The 99% - everyone else
Introduced to the Creator	Not introduced, but knew there was a Creator god
God introduces Himself to Moses, and Israel at Sinai	In the vacuum of God - 'other gods' Archon step up and desire to be worshiped
Israel sacrificed animals	'other gods' wanted human sacrifices, especially children
Israel chased these 'other gods' out of Canaan	'other gods' and human sacrifices appear in South America
Before Christ - Israel was surrounded by enemies that worshiped 'other gods'	Before Christ - Israel was surrounded by enemies that worshiped 'other gods'
Before Christ - God gave the land to Israe	Before Christ - Israel occupied Canaan
After Christ - Israel is dispersed, Christianity grows, Rome usurps the faith, Protestants fracture the faith	After Christ - Israel is gone, Gabriel give a different message to Mohammad, Mohammad gathers all the 'other gods' into one shrine and declares Allah as their ruler
Israel returns to the Promisd Land	Israel occupies Canaan / Palestine again
Israel is surrounded by enemies that all worship Allah	Israel is surrounded by enemies that all worship Allah, who rules over all the 'other gods'

[Richard]

In regards to your picture, I stand firmly on the left, with the one-way Church. As a Church, we are only interested in placing people on that straight and narrow path. There is no greater mission. During my tenure, many have come and gone through our congregation. If I help just one, even a little bit, then it was all worth wile.

We have had discussion about the Sunday Law and the Sabbath. To alter anything with a long held view would make the Church appear to admit to a mistake of some type. Sunday or everyday, any day that brings people together in fellowship is a good day.

As we enter the end times and the evil forces return to earth, more people are going to ask what is happening. Isaiah 14 is the only scapegoat the Church has. To reinvent the theology now would only hurt the overall credibility of the Church.

As a lay Pastor, sent out as a sheep among the wolves, I can only play the hand that I am dealt. The Church probably doesn't know everything, but it is designed to help people on that straight and narrow path to Christ and salvation.

This is my calling, I have known you a while, I see your calling. We simply speak to a different audience.

[Richard]

Islam

I understand what your saying, but Church will not make the same caparison. We do not recommend Walid Shoebat. We do not teach this because, 'love they neighbor' will be replaced with ' your the other guys.' We should love them not see them as an enemy. I say this knowing that my Church is a long way from harm. Isn't it enough to just understand that they hate us because we are Christian. This should be enough evidence alone to make us put on our Armour.

[Deleted]

We have had discussion about the Sunday Law and the Sabbath. To alter anything with a long held view would make the Church appear to admit to a mistake of some type. Sunday or everyday, any day that brings people together in fellowship is a good day.

Richard can you elaborate more on this please?



Did our Pioneer Protestants` understand the Sabbath / Sunday debate?

Here is a direct quote from the Augsburg Confession as recorded by a Roman Catholic scribe, from article 28, Saturday June 25 1530 AD at 3:00pm.

"Moreover, it is disputed whether bishops or pastors have the right to introduce ceremonies in the Church and to make laws concerning foods, festivals and degrees, that is, orders of ministers, etc. They who claim this right for bishops refer to this passage [John 16:12–13]: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth.” They also refer to the example of the Apostles who commanded to abstain from blood and things strangled in Acts 15:29. They refer to the Sabbath Day as having been changed to Sunday; seemingly contrary to the Ten Commandments. Indeed, there is no other example they make more of than the one concerning the Sabbath Day. Great, they say, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments! " source link quoted as is.

Shalom

[Richard]

Sept 28, 2019 17:34:40 GMT -5 @robertt said:

We have had discussion about the Sunday Law and the Sabbath. To alter anything with a long held view would make the Church appear to admit to a mistake of some type. Sunday or everyday, any day that brings people together in fellowship is a good day.

Richard can you elaborate more on this please?
Shalom

I am just a Christian. We are all called to teach. I have attended the same fellowship for more than 30 years. I take my turn with responsibilities. I just want to praise God and share Jesus Christ. This is what I am called to do. There are a lot of academic debates that interest me, but in my role as a Christian, all I care about is sharing my savior with my neighbors and friends. If someone comes to us, we welcome them any day of the week, but they usually come on Sunday; therefore we are open on Sunday.

I have known Dave since my wife worked with him back in (2002?). We met over a UFO sighting at Twin Lakes Colorado. A woman that I have the most respect for saw something. She reported it to all the authorities. I have never known a more credible witness. She was shaken. Her faith was shaken. Our Church did not know what to say or how to help. It was hard to tell what her biggest burden might have been. The smirks of her friends, or the self-doubt it generated.

I will admit, none of us were prepared for her experience. My wife invited Dave over for coffee for a multitude of reasons and we became close friends. His support and his willingness to listen was a God send to our entire family. For him to make the connection to Ephesians 6:12 quashed her doubts and has in powered her faith with new energy.

I support David’s witness and trust his witness. Over the years, Dave has been helpful with some difficult know-it-alls, and it has been a pleasure interacting with his friends.