Jesus versus Paul

[Dave]

I have been uncomfortable in all of the many churches I have sat in over the past years. I tried to be a good 'Christian' boy - and found that to be humanly impossible. Just recently, I have uncovered my own issues - and they have to do with the conflicting words between Paul and Jesus.

The Gospel is 100% about Jesus - but the Roman NT Canon is 85% Paul.

Christian churches are so full of double speak - any study with them only leads to confusion.

Christians teach that Jesus was 'God Incarnate' - which is the Creator and the author of the Torah
Christians teach Jesus says - 'Keep my Commandments' - But Paul cancels the Torah and the Law of Moses

I struggle over the Greek translation of Mathew 5:17-19
Has Heaven and Earth passed away? NO!
Has one letter of the Law been abolished/ended - NO!

Why - does every 'Christian' church teach that they are all under a NEW COVENANT?
It is OK to deliberately and legislatively disregard the 4th Commandment
Catholic SUNday supersedes Torah

In Mathew 6, Jesus gave instruction on how to give charity - in secret
Every SUNdasy there is the social pressure to praise the Lord and pass the hat
In Mathew 6, Jesus gave instructions on how to pray - do not stand up front and babel on as the pagans
Every SUNday, 5 or 6 times deacons and elder try to outdo one another crowing from the front
In Mathew 6, Jesus gave instructions on what not to pray for - do ask for stuff you want- God knows what you need.
Every SUNday, there is a prayer request and a corporate prayer for all those little things

Jesus says - DON'T DO THIS STUFF - Paul says its OK - its Roman tradition -

Ezek 38 warns of the worship of Tammuz and Ishtar
Every 'Christian' church celebrates both in spades -

[Dave]

Mar 28, 2019 21:25:38 GMT -5 Dave said:

Jesus says - DON'T DO THIS STUFF - Paul says its OK - its Roman tradition -

On a different discussion board, I just wrote something relevant

The disciples asked Jesus how to pray in Math 6
One of the instructions from Jesus was - don't ask for stuff because God knows what you need
Instead - we are suppose to pray for God's will to be done on Earth

How many times have we all heard preachers praying for peace in the Middle East
In our churches - on TV - from congress and the White House - are prayers for peace in the Middle East

God's will for Earth is spelled out in His Word
Ezk 38 and Revelations both call for WAR!
God's plan for the Middle East is what - WAR!

First Question - should we actually be praying for war not peace?

Second Question - Christianity preaches that the devil already knows that he has lost - his only hope is to postpone the end as long as possible. Isn't each and every brokered peace in the Middle East actually serve the devil? Aren't we trying our best to postpone the inevitable?

Whose agent are we - agents for the good in trying to promote peace?
or agents of the devil trying to postpone the end?

[Dave]

Sept 18, 2019 3:51:13 GMT -5 @robertt said:

On the outside both are seen as torah followers.
One does the torah by humans baal master powers of self, as Paul calls works of the Law
and the other does them by supporting Jesus words,

Paul vrs Jesus

Paul was not part of the original 12
Paul's writes very legalistic - big words - long run on sentences
He is both challenging to translate, read in translation, and understand

Did Paul write the Book of Hebrews? Did he write all of it? Like Mark it seemed to be composed multiple authors.

Of all the known writings of Jesus and the Gospel by the original 12 - why do they only comprise 15% of the NT while the later Paul get 85% of the press?

The end result of Paul = 37 Scriptures That Prove Christians Are Not Under The Law
www.phildrysdale.com/2013/10/37-scriptures-that-prove-christians-are-not-under-the-law/

One scripture in Acts that say the Law is unbearable and 36 scriptures from Paul

Jesus said - He came to preach the Law fully - none of it will ever change
Paul says - we have a new covenant and the Law is for the unenlightened (non-Christian)

What law is he talking about? Because, in every church that tells me this – I ask – does this mean the 10 Commandment are out? I can Murder? Worship false gods? Make graven images?

The answer is always – No – Paul doesn’t mean that Law – well what does Paul mean?
All the disciples were practicing Jews, Paul took the vow of a Nazarite and made sacrifices in the Temple after meeting Jesus on the road.

Yet – the church uses Paul to justify man-made religion
God says Sabbath = Friday Night –Sat morning
Because of the “authority of the church” – given to them by Grace under Paul’s New Covenant
Man change the Sabbath to Sun Day

Jesus say – bluntly – do not stand up front and babel on
Jesus says – bluntly – do not ask for stuff
Every Christian service I have ever been too
– includes standing and praying by someone
Usually they do it 5 or 6 times in an hour
- Include a corporate prayer – where the congregation gets to ask for stuff
This is all OK – New Covenant

Christians mock the Law of Moses – Christians are trained to mock it – every Sun day

The Law

I have already said that the Law told Israel to dress differently and stand out for the Lord
The Law told Israel to act out the Gospel in parade form for the whole world to see
The Law gave us the 10 Commandments – and our current perception of justice / fairness

Talk of the Mock

If you touch the skin of a pig – chop off your hand

Christians do not know the history of the pig and therefore do not understand the Law

First -
Ezk 8/9 – Tammuz was being worship in the Temple – and everyone was involved – except Ezekiel
Tammuz was born on the winter equinox – Dec 25 – a part of Christendom today
This is the ABOMINATION
The sacrificial animal to Tammuz was the pig
The Mother and wife of Tammuz was Ishtar –
Ishtar was reincarnated and fell to earth on the Spring Equinox in an egg
To prove her divinity she changed a bird into an egg laying Rabbit
And today – all Christians celebrate the resurrection with – Easter eggs and Ham

During the Maccabee era – pigs were being sacrificed in the temple
This is why the temple was rededicated before Christ came

ABOMINATION – DESOLATION

One day the Temple will be rebuilt
And to dedicate it to the whole world
The Pope will hold a Christ-mass in the Temple on Dec 25th

Secondly –
Pigs are a forbidden animal – look at all of the forbidden animals
In the sea, air, or land – they are all scavengers / carrion eaters
Today – with the bio-accumulation and bio-concentration of NHPs and other pollutants – scavengers are not in my diet

How the Law has changed me

When I was 16, I reluctantly drove the speed limit because I had too. I could not afford the cost – of the ticket – or my father’s wrath.

Almost 50 years later, I drive around less than the posted speed limit because I have my kids in the car with me. I have worked in medicine for 28 years – I have seen what stupid driving looks like up close. I cannot afford the cost / penalty .

No one makes me drive more cautious – it just seems the intelligent thing to do
What I did once out of obedience – I now do out of respect for the same law.

If I am a Jew – and try to keep the written Law over and over
Eventually they are supposed to wake up as to its message
Which begins their personal quest

If I am a Christian – I am begging for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Does Christendom tell me how to do this? – YES IT DOES (my church experience)
First they tell you Romans 8:28
No matter what you cares are – give to the Lord and all will be better
The they tell you about John 3:16 and end with Acts 16:31
Believe and you are saved
This is the FEEL GOOD MESSAGE of Christendom – it is an empty message

People come to church because they are looking for help
Grandma is sick – the house is being repo-ed – little Jimmy has cancer

They come looking for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit –
that divine thing that will change them and make sense of it all.
BUT – Grandma and little Jimmy both die and the house is gone

Dig deeper in the church looking for - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit –
that divine thing that will change them and make sense of it all.
The only answer Christianity has for them is –
Pray harder – accept the mystery – be more sincere – more focused
Upon deeper study – instead of finding the Spirit –
I just find layer and layer of man-made religion that is obvious bunk

My wife grew up on the Island of Mindanao
She also grew up praying to the Pope

But why do we continue to church if it fits our schedule and mood?
Why do I continually drag friends and family along ?
Eventually they are supposed to wake up as to its message
Which begins their personal quest

[Deleted]

I read your link Dave, and the person presents a few good sentences, only at the end:

You see the biggest hinderance to us doing good is our knowledge of good and evil! If we were willing to put aside our desire to do good and avoid evil, and instead just follow God’s voice, we would see the most incredible changes in our lives.

What might happen if we trusted that Christ in us is good at His job and that the Holy Spirit, actually produces the fruit of the Spirit and not us?

He shows us a powerful verse:

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The link talks about many things against torah. He even says law, including moral law is the same as ceremonial law. Funny James calls the moral law, royal torah, making it a very different distinction.

OK so what's Paul talking about here? The second birth process by the Holy Spirit, thanks to Jesus who satisfied law.

If salvation was based on grace, why have law at all? The fact Jesus died proves law cannot be changed before or after the cross? How do I know this so easily? Because when man sinned via Adam, the laws are reflected in our DNA that records your sinning epi-genetically. Law remains inside our DNA before the cross or after the cross. So please let's not discuss Jesus completed law. Law was completed from eternity.

What Jesus completed was a different method to be saved apart from law.

Why did Jesus have to die? Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

When Satan attacked the Holy Spirit, who is the administrator of living, causing Adam and Eve to sin, the future children - fruit- the law says "life for life".

How can one get our DNA potential to obey living correctly back again.

Is their a Hebrew word for this concept? yes

Ps 36:12 There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise. (KJV)

The Hebrew word is "aven" best translated as "genetic propensity"

Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

Your DNA propensities influence you to become wicked.

Isa 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

This passage gives a clue how to avoid your genetic propensities, when you "support Jesus". The Hebrew word here is "amanuah" wrongly translated as "truth or faith" but actually means "support".

So what is Paul talking about? He is talking about law followers doing good using their Baal Master powers of self. Such goodness means nothing to GOD.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

They establish their straightness.

OK how do you get God's straightness?

Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Poorly translated for Hebrew words such as amanuah and it's related roots.

Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word-personified is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of support, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and support in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Simple? How do we support Jesus, so He supports us back?

An example is easy to picture

I am walking into the restaurant and see a chocolate muffin and other pastry bits, loaded with manufactured temptations. If I do not say in my mind "Lord lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from things dysfunctional" I will do what my genetic propensity will do and choose to eat the man made manufactured madness, and this is a lack of support, or a form of missing, or sin. But if I sow this Power-Promise in my mind, Jesus power's is unpacked immediately in me, so that I choose to eat the apples instead. When I support His WORD, His powers in that WORD support me back. This is what support means. It's a relationship concept.

This is what Paul means by the Holy Spirit of the Law, rather than the Letters of the Law. Baal masters powers of human self, obey the letters using human powers. Supporting the promises of power, the relationship of humanity with divinity causes one to follow the laws because you choose to do so. Why do you choose to do so? Because when we experience the love of Jesus, we love to love Him back. Either you are in relationship supporting Him, or your not.

Notice this process is similar to the law, except it has Jesus doing all the work for you and in you. But your mind has to know the torah, which seed solutions to sow, and each person will sow seeds differently to others.

The link, which says the law is for unbelievers only, he does not understand what "support/faith" means.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

What commandments do I keep? Jesus commandments? Father's commandments? Are they separate? Yes. Jesus uses grace. The Father uses law.
Jesus can make up your shortfall of obedience, as long as you support Him correctly. Hence you obey Father's law. As you come closer to Jesus your missing seems greater and greater. But many transgressions do go away. Fight to support Jesus, not the shadows of missing His powers. Actually both Jesus and Father's laws are essentially the same, only that the Son gave his life for you, he gracefully did this.

If you look carefully at Paul, he was NOT anti-torah. He was against legalism, the process of humans obeying torah using human strength alone.
Salvation is based on obedience to law, but sinners have an inherited genetic propensity problem. Hence we need Jesus, and we need to support Him. He promises to engineer our propensities and remove them, so we become sinless and able to support Jesus fully. Shalom

[Dave]

This is a catch 22 - you can tell me what Paul really meant! But it does NOT change the legacy of Paul to the faith.

Ten Commandments No Longer ‘Applies to Us,’ Says Popular Megachurch Pastor
www.christianheadlines.com/contributors/michael-foust/ten-commandments-no-longer-applies-to-us-says-popular-megachurch-pastor.html

Quoting from the article
"Stanley quoted John 13:34: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
(there is a big gap here because the LGBT Christian advertisement didn't copy and paste)

He called it the “one commandment”"

2000 yrs of Roman Paul influence on the church =
Sun day Sabbath, idols and rituals, women preach (but don't understand why they can), its Ok if I forsake fellowship, transgender females can lead churches.

This tolerance of - its Ok God will forgive - Grace after all = a polluting and diluting of the church
This new found 'lack of orthodoxy = over 2000 registered 'christian' denominations in America = cultural doubt as to the real truth

[Deleted]

I see, perhaps Dave this is why we ponder confusion. Love your logo.
It's true though. God has a Bible of confusion for a reason, so people who LOVE  to wander, wander. and people who see true, remain true. Study the confusion is the key...

Most confused by Paul, only study Paul. Scripture does not like that. Isaiah 28 says how to study scripture...not all in one place...not all by Paul

Shalom

[Dave]

Sept 19, 2019 14:01:32 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Most confused by Paul, only study Paul. Scripture does not like that. Isaiah 28 says how to study scripture...not all in one place...not all by Paul

Shalom

YES! - They are carried away with the "New Covenant" and how it cancels the Law - which means the Godly way of doing things. New Covenant = God is tolerant - its all OK

WAR is OK - if your fighting for the church

Persecution and intolerant rejection of non-believers is OK

Sin - is pretty much OK - as long as you ask for forgiveness

Ali said - Rape, pillage, and plunder all day; say our prayers before we sleep - so we can sleep with a clean conscious - just to wake up and sin some more

[Deleted]

Well said brother !