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Post by Dave on Jun 18, 2015 12:19:03 GMT -5
If you define god as the first cause, I know god doesn't exist. "The silliest question is who made God?" On the contrary, it's the best question to ask. If you just claim that there is no cause of god, then you might as well just believe anything else can happen without cause. That makes you an indeterminist, but it does not grant a free will. I define God as my first cause – is that the same as “The First Cause”? – I am too small to know Buying into a multidimensional reality – makes me even smaller – tiny even The Gold Fish swimming in the bowel on my table – HAS NO KNOWLEDGE of his mother ½ way around the globe swimming in a small pond in China – doesn’t mean she doesn’t exist – it is just a knowledge issue and for my Gold Fish to think it is all about him and his small corner of the world is just foolish arrogance on his part Knowing what is beyond my Creator:Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the wind, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child; even so thou knowest not the work of God who doeth all. Job 37:23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: He is excellent in power; And in justice and plenteous righteousness he will not afflict. From: Adam Clark Commentary, 1831 – causality "Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out - This is a very abrupt exclamation, and highly descriptive of the state of mind in which Elihu was at this time; full of solemnity, wonder, and astonishment, at his own contemplation of this “great First Cause, least understood.” The Almighty! we cannot find him out.
Excellent in power and in judgment - We must not pretend to comprehend his being, the mode of his existence, the wisdom of his counsels, nor the mysteries of his conduct.
He will not afflict - לא יענה la yeanneh, he will not Answer. He will give account of none of his matters to us. We cannot comprehend his motives, nor the ends he has in view."Except for - Psa 19:1 ... The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament showeth his handiwork. and as for -- I know god doesn't exist. --- I want to know – teach me – correct me – if I am spending my time foolishly wake me up You seem to have great insight – I agree with your paradigm But I say your paradigm all resides as a sub plot in a much larger reality that you seem to deny So it isn’t really an issue of your right and I’m wrong It is an issue of does God exist Again – I agree with you 100% - “… it's the best question to ask.”
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Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 18, 2015 14:04:56 GMT -5
If you define god as the first cause, I know god doesn't exist. "The silliest by earnsale"> question is who made God?" On the contrary, it's the best by earnsale"> question to ask. If you just claim that there is no cause of god, then you might as well just believe anything else can happen without cause. That makes you an indeterminist, but it does not grant a free will. You absolutely do not know that God does not exist!
We know that something exists don't we pinch yourself if you doubt your own existence!
The best question is "Why is there something and not nothing?"
We know without experiment that "Something Exists"
That something must have existed forever!
When did that Something Begin?
When will it that something end?
If something had no beginning and no end it must be eternal!
If that something is just energy, then where did that energy come from, because energy cannot be created or destroyed only change form?
What existed before the Big Bang?
Who or what pushed the button, that started the Big Band that led to the formation of our universe?
The universe is expanding and its expansion is accelerating towards infinite Entropy.
When the universe reaches state of infinite entropy it will be in a state of absolute zero with absolutely no matter or energy, within an infinitely large totally empty vacuum void.
If the above is true, then what we call existence and reality would have vanished, leading back to the impossibility of the absolute absence of everything.
How could a new universe come from absolute nothingness?
It simply cannot originate from absolute nothing!
With the concept of an eternal creator God, we are left with a question of infinite regression.
With God we are also left the Infinite Regression of the something we know is our reality.
Matter, energy time and space cannot create itself. Just like a stone in your garden cannot create itself or create anything else.
The only thing that simply has no infinite regression,is Almighty God, because whenever, whoever, whatever, God is always in the picture outside the framework of time or space.
The Hindu Scriptures have a creator that both creates and destroyer and I believe this is exactly the same with the real God of creation.
The only possible logic answer as to why we exist, is that an eternal being of infinite intelligence created the universe, directly from thought in his mind.
God is pure Spirit, has no physical form requiring his to exist in some cosmic body of material matter.
God is like a bird making its nest from the outside. His outside is that place we call heavencontians
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Post by Chandler Klebs on Jun 19, 2015 8:10:22 GMT -5
If you define god as the first cause, I know god doesn't exist. "The silliest question is who made God?" On the contrary, it's the best question to ask. If you just claim that there is no cause of god, then you might as well just believe anything else can happen without cause. That makes you an indeterminist, but it does not grant a free will. I define God as my first cause – is that the same as “The First Cause”? – I am too small to know Buying into a multidimensional reality – makes me even smaller – tiny even The Gold Fish swimming in the bowel on my table – HAS NO KNOWLEDGE of his mother ½ way around the globe swimming in a small pond in China – doesn’t mean she doesn’t exist – it is just a knowledge issue and for my Gold Fish to think it is all about him and his small corner of the world is just foolish arrogance on his part Knowing what is beyond my Creator:Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the wind, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child; even so thou knowest not the work of God who doeth all. Job 37:23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: He is excellent in power; And in justice and plenteous righteousness he will not afflict. From: Adam Clark Commentary, 1831 – causality "Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out - This is a very abrupt exclamation, and highly descriptive of the state of mind in which Elihu was at this time; full of solemnity, wonder, and astonishment, at his own contemplation of this “great First Cause, least understood.” The Almighty! we cannot find him out.
Excellent in power and in judgment - We must not pretend to comprehend his being, the mode of his existence, the wisdom of his counsels, nor the mysteries of his conduct.
He will not afflict - לא יענה la yeanneh, he will not Answer. He will give account of none of his matters to us. We cannot comprehend his motives, nor the ends he has in view."Except for - Psa 19:1 ... The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament showeth his handiwork. and as for -- I know god doesn't exist. --- I want to know – teach me – correct me – if I am spending my time foolishly wake me up You seem to have great insight – I agree with your paradigm But I say your paradigm all resides as a sub plot in a much larger reality that you seem to deny So it isn’t really an issue of your right and I’m wrong It is an issue of does God exist Again – I agree with you 100% - “… it's the best question to ask.”There is indeed a huge difference between "my first cause" and "The First Cause". For example, I would say that my first cause would be the sperm and egg joining that resulted in the zygote that grew into what I am now. But I am strictly atheist because I don't believe in The First Cause. This would violate the very principle of cause and effect also known as determinism or causality. So in a way determinism implies atheism, though many other atheists would disagree with me because some of them are indeterminists.
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Larry
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Post by Larry on Jun 19, 2015 10:30:52 GMT -5
There is indeed a huge difference between "my first cause" and "The First Cause". For example, I would say that my first cause would be the sperm and egg joining that resulted in the zygote that grew into what I am now.
If your first cause is your parents, then their first cause is their parents, and so on and so on until you get to Adam. Now your statement has a problem, unless you think that first cause was a mistake.
You are an atheist because you do not believe in the first cause, but argue causality. You are funny.
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Post by Chandler Klebs on Jun 19, 2015 18:19:51 GMT -5
There is indeed a huge difference between "my first cause" and "The First Cause". For example, I would say that my first cause would be the sperm and egg joining that resulted in the zygote that grew into what I am now.
If your first cause is your parents, then their first cause is their parents, and so on and so on until you get to Adam. Now your statement has a problem, unless you think that first cause was a mistake.
You are an atheist because you do not believe in the first cause, but argue causality. You are funny.
My point exactly. The infinite regress can't be escaped. It goes back to Adam and Eve if we assume they existed. But if God created them, then where are God's parents? The point is that even if gods existed, there would be no THE GOD. There would be an infinite series of gods.
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Post by Dave on Jun 20, 2015 9:28:20 GMT -5
OK - I see what you are saying
The infinite regress can't be escaped.
Your entire argument is built upon this premise - it is an incorrect premise Science thought the exact same was true of matter - it is not
cut an object in 1/2 - cut one piece if it 1/2 again - cut one piece if it 1/2 again - cut one piece if it 1/2 again
Each piece gets infinitely smaller correct? - NO it doesn't because at about 1.0x10-33cm sub atomic particles loose locality
So, matter gets smaller and smaller until it looses locality and then become everywhere at once! The current theory of 'quantum entangelment' states that every individual photon knows exactly what all the other photons are doing - not because of proximity - but because the lose of locality invites this quantum entangelment
Therefore there is a universal limit to your infinite regression -
Just as scripture says
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Post by Dave on Jun 20, 2015 10:16:55 GMT -5
P.S.
In Gnostic cosmology
There is a unique singularity that I call Creator - YHWY - God (big G) as a multidimensionalist - the Trinity is next
under them are many - repeat many - gods (small g) under them are many non-corporeal beings - angels, demons, shades, Djinn, Archon, satans
Then us
Our physicial reality - all dimensions - all localities all find their dimensional definition from that which is the foundation to everything - that first dimensional singularity that can never be located and which is omnipotent (E=mc2) - and if you add consciousness to that it become omniscient - and then if you just want to stick with the science the first thing this omnipotent + omniscient singularity did was become omnipresent (expansion if you are a big banger - intersection of two branes if you are a M-Theorist)
Infinite regression leads to this non-locatable, non-measurable singularity
Which is the first cause - for this reality
Was their something more before Gen 1? Was there something before the 'without form and void' Scripture says - YES - it was this the first dimensional singularity that give definition for everything that followed.
Now you said that you know this first singularity does not exist
What is your argument to support your premise? Just to say - I believe or I think - is not enough - need data
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Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 20, 2015 10:38:13 GMT -5
There is indeed a huge difference between "my first cause" and "The First Cause". For example, I would say that my first cause would be the sperm and egg by earnsale"> joining that resulted in the zygote that grew into what I am now.
If your first cause is your parents, then their first cause is their parents, and so on and so on until you get to Adam. Now your statement has a problem, unless you think that first cause was a mistake.
You are an atheist because you do not believe in the first cause, but argue causality. You are funny.
Yes Larry his first cause that leads to another cause and so on and so on is called "infinite Regression" Which is a scientific impossibility! Science insist that the function of "Causality "is fundamental basic that sustains the universe.
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Post by Richard on Jun 20, 2015 14:42:32 GMT -5
All my Christian life I have heard about a war in heaven. Rev 12 comes at the end of the story and scripture tells me that Christ, the Dragon, and all of their separate armies were all in the same heaven.
Revelation 12:7 - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Notice a commander and army on both sides
was that war in heaven/ the spirit world: YES was that war in outer-space like a Star Trex episode: YES was the war here on Earth: YES
and it is still going on daily
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Post by Dave on Jun 21, 2015 9:37:29 GMT -5
and it is still going on daily
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Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 23, 2015 10:23:23 GMT -5
All my Christian life I have heard about a war in heaven. Rev 12 comes at the end of the story and scripture by earnsale"> tells me that Christ, the Dragon, and all of their separate armies were all in the same heaven. Revelation 12:7 - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Notice a by earnsale"> commander and army on both sides was that war in heaven/ the by earnsale"> spirit world: YES was that war in outer-space like a Star Trex episode: YES was the war here on Earth: YES and it is still going on daily Agreed except there was never a war in-heaven where Almighty God dwells. You simply cannot wage war with a being of Infinite Might/Power. It would be over before it began. If what you suggest that there was/is a war in heaven, then you have to demote God into a demigod of limited finite powers.
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Post by Dave on Jun 25, 2015 22:32:24 GMT -5
Never demoting God - but demonstrating that the Roman imagery of "Heaven" is incomplete
Our has been one of locality - if there is only here and there - then the cosmology is cumbersome and incomplete - This is the importance of multidimensality to Gnostic cosmology.
Even here and there is 2 different localities There is no denial - we are 3D in a 3D reality Simple Christendom has heaven and hell -- 3D + 2D more = 5D Catholics add Purgatory - 6D We can split hairs over the difference between Hades and Tartarus or Sheol and Gehenna - 7D?
In the reading of Enoch or Paul, both reported 10 heavens Science says 10 D
In Gnostic cosmology there are 7 heavens + this 3D
There is a lot of room for a lot of "activity" by "others" - "elsewhere"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 23:26:14 GMT -5
Alan, you raise an interesting question,
Alan: "Agreed except there was never a war in-heaven where Almighty God dwells. You simply cannot wage war with a being of Infinite Might/Power. It would be over before it began.
If what you suggest that there was/is a war in heaven, then you have to demote God into a demigod of limited finite powers
End quote:
Why can't you have a war in heaven?
Suppose two parents create 4 boys, but one becomes bad by age 8. What can you do as parents? Is this not a war at home? Not physical war? no body dies at home? more a war over words, clash of pride.
What can the parents do with their son? banish him? put up with him? when does his evil become too bad, that it affects the other children?
Of course if some parents had four male parrots in the home, than a bad parrot, can only mouth off. This kind war is easier to deal with because the parrots are not the same KIND as the parents are.
Doesn't the Ephesians 3:15-16, describe GOD as a family? Father, Son and Mother? This may be a simile of earthly parents, so it helps us to ponder the question, was there not a war in the heavenly home?
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Post by Dave on Nov 17, 2019 10:51:16 GMT -5
Alan, you raise an interesting question, Alan: "Agreed except there was never a war in-heaven where Almighty God dwells. You simply cannot wage war with a being of Infinite Might/Power. It would be over before it began. If what you suggest that there was/is a war in heaven, then you have to demote God into a demigod of limited finite powers End quote: Why can't you have a war in heaven? The Contest is taking place in the multiverses as well - or has already occured Just as the Contest is taking place here in our reality As in heaven - so as on earth But it is not a war of Wills - God's will vrs satan will It is the struggle between negentropy and entropy / tov and ra / light and darkness Satan is not its creator - he is just a particapant
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 13:45:17 GMT -5
Dave: "As in heaven - so as on earth But it is not a war of Wills - God's will vrs satan will
It is the struggle between negentropy and entropy / tov and ra / light and darkness Satan is not its creator - he is just a particapant
I get your view, read the Jewish account, but disagree.
Why can't angels have free will? Why make them robots? Why do you ignore Hebrew books like Ezekiel? And Genesis? And Pauls account in the Corinthians?
Why don't we study choshek?
Its not a natural consequence of light, negentropy and entropy,
its a term based on relationship, faith, choice and Beings, especially Beings who sin?
Why don't we study choshek? its all over the Hebrew books. both OT and NT, ready for you to discover?
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