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Post by Dave on Jun 14, 2015 17:50:45 GMT -5
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments
Luke 16:23
(KJV) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(ASV) And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(YLT) Luk 16:23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,
καὶ ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ, ὑπάρχων ἐν βασάνοις, ὁρᾷ ᾿Αβραὰμ ἀπὸ μακρόθεν καὶ Λάζαρον ἐν τοῖς κόλποις αὐτοῦ.
Strong's #G86 ᾅδῃ hadēs From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
Here is another Roman thing I pick at
What is the difference between English HELL and the Greek Hades?
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Post by Chandler Klebs on Jun 14, 2015 20:19:10 GMT -5
It looks like some of you are having a small war about whether or not there is war in heaven.
Also, since you guys appear to be Christian, you probably are not considering free will in the same way as the philosophers do. Are you familiar with the 3 major positions?
Libertarianism
A libertarian simply says that what they do is their choice. They don't really look further at the causes that led them to do it. Often they believe that humans make choices randomly. Often this means that people can do things for no reason whatsoever. This is something they must convince themselves because they want to feel that it is "up to them" what they do in their life. Those who become libertarian philosophers are almost always either extremely rich or extremely religious and believe that they deserve credit for using their god-given free will to choose better than other people did. This means they have little or no sympathy for the poor, sick, or mentally ill because they believe that anyone who is suffering must "deserve" it because they made bad choices.
Determinism
Determinism, briefly stated is that everything that happens is the effect of all the prior causes that led to it. This applies to the so called choices of humans and all other animals just as it does to billiard balls or falling dominoes. Basically if someone did something, there is a reason why they did it exactly as they did. The actions may be good or bad. The reasons behind them may be good or bad, but nonetheless, the people did what they did and there is no way they could have done differently at the time when the choice was made. So in a sense, the daily choices are not "up to" the individual but are a combination of nature/genetics(everything we are biologically), and nurture/conditioning(everything we are taught by every experience). This does not mean that all actions are equally moral or intelligent, but that it is at least theoretically possible to reduce the negative things we don't like if we search for the causes that lead to them and reform the education system.
Compatibilism
Compatibilists are those people who attempt to be both libertarians and determinists at the same time. They say that we are still free to choose what we want and that we still deserve credit or blame for our choices even though they are the effect of prior causes. This sounds like the height of insanity to me. The compatibilists I have talked to so far will say that you are free to choose if no one is holding a gun to your head. Their idea of freedom is a person doing what they want without any other human physically present at the time threatening them with punishment for doing something. In a certain sense, this is understandable, but what they are doing is ignoring the causal factors that lead to their will to do something. On a rainy day, they will say that they chose to carry an umbrella, but the rest of us know that they were caused to do this because it was raining and they didn't want to get wet. Compatibilism is the height of insanity.
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Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 15, 2015 9:51:26 GMT -5
I don't know where I am on the pre- /mid- /post- trib thing - but If, as you say, Rev 12 has not happened yet - then where is the Dragon and his 1/3 now? If I understand what you are trying to say - God is in heaven - but the Dragon and his 1/3 are in space, outer space, with planets and moons? The Dragon are roaming around in our physical universe , with his demons that have been cast out of the Highest Heaven where Gods presence is most intense only light no dark there. In Eden, Satan had already been banished from heaven, into the physical universe. At the time of Eden evil already existence. Name the 'Tree of knowledge of Good and evil When God created our physical material universe, he was in a place outside of time or space, this place is from where God created our universe and from where the story of our bible began. If God were within the physical universe at the moment of creation, he could not have been the Infinite Omni-All being that is/was the source of "All Existence" Existence includes much, much more than just our physical universe. You Dave have mentioned many other dimensions or heavens, and in that you are correct. I however, believe there are many more planes of reality than just 10 The theory of Branes suggests that there could be an infinite number of alternate universes. If our Lord God is Infinite, who not? Of course my believing what I believe does not mean it is correct or true!
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Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 15, 2015 16:53:48 GMT -5
Now wait a minute If you say YHWY is in absolute control - then how can God's will not be done on Earth? Every End Times Ministry today goes around yelling - Look another fulfilled prophesy Each fulfilled prophecy validate scripture and therefore its author each prophesy moving us closer and closer to the 'End of Days' each prophesy moving us closer to Revelations Who is the god of this world - the Serpent Is this God's will or a mistake? If you say YHWY is not in control - then what prevents humanity from changing the ending? What prevents the Serpent from changing the ending. In a lot of churches they preach that the Serpent is trying to change the ending, but he cannot because YHWY is in absolute control? Simply Larry, God gave a free-will to Adam and the rest of humanity all the way to the present time a free will (without any reservations) God could remove our free-will at the very next moment, but then he would have created robots who do not have the will to love him or reject him. God wants companions, that love him, not living robots that are forced to obey him!
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Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 15, 2015 17:06:46 GMT -5
Chandler,
Determinism says that every cause must have a prior cause. Scientist also mostly view this as a fundamental of how the universe works.
Almighty God on the other hand has no prior cause, he has no beginning and no end.
Indeed God is the only "UnCaused Cause"
This makes no sense to humans limited understanding and logic?
However just look at the Light Constant c it also makes no sense yet it has been proved correct by scientific experiments.
The quantum world is also completely baffling. Particles can exist in two places at the same moment.
Fundamental particle need an observer to to collapse into a state, it is almost as if they were intelligent and know when they are being observed?.
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Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 15, 2015 17:35:48 GMT -5
Now wait a minute If you say YHWY is in absolute control - then how can God's will not be done on Earth?
My comments in RED FONT (Alan)
Larry God is in complete control, however he suspends his control over events for his own profound reasons.
Example you have complete control over a small child of 2 years. You decide to allow her to walk in your garden, and not control every actions she performs on her own. You want her to learn, just in the way God does to humans during our lives on planet earth the Almighty wants us learn.
Every End Times Ministry today goes around yelling - Look another fulfilled prophesy Each fulfilled prophecy validate scripture and therefore its author each prophesy moving us closer and closer to the 'End of Days' each prophesy moving us closer to Revelations The only consistent thing about all these End of Days predictions or so-called prophets, prophesying, is that "They are consistently wrong
Who is the god of this world - the Serpent. At the moment YES!
Is this God's will or a mistake? In my opinion God does make mistakes, such a in the story of Noah. "God pained in his heart that he had made man.
If you say YHWY is not in control - then what prevents humanity from changing the ending? What prevents the Serpent from changing the ending. In a lot of churches they preach that the Serpent is trying to change the ending, but he cannot because YHWY is in absolute control? Going back to my example of the two your old child, you will intervene when you see she is getting into a a dangerous situation that has become passed her level of control over her life and safety situation.
In Gods case "He will intervene and in no uncertain way, take away mankind free-will, cast Satan and his demons into the bottomless pit etcThe future is not set in stone in my opinion the "End" will not come on any specific date, but when certain events converge
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Post by George Ortega on Jun 15, 2015 17:57:04 GMT -5
Free Will is completely impossible because of the causal/acausal dichotomy. This can be understood apart from belief in a god. It is true however than an all knowing god also is in conflict with humans making choices. - I am Chandler Klebs, Founder and Executive Producer of the Free Will, Science and Religion daily podcast. To join us as a guest or a host, visit our wordpress site - freewillscienceandreligion.wordpress.com/
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Post by George Ortega on Jun 15, 2015 17:59:49 GMT -5
Regarding "I disagree in the absolute I have a Free-Will, which I can use or abuse at at time." I would guess you value goodness, and try to be as good as you can. But you can't be perfectly good because you don't have a free will. Read Romans 9. God himself says that what happens is his will, and not ours.
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Post by Dave on Jun 15, 2015 23:33:18 GMT -5
Welcome George - sign in - teach us more
You make a great point - but - this is my take
Man has free will on the small scale but not on the large scale The day to day - year by year existence as a mortal man may might feel like you have free will The day to day choices we make are our own God is in control - yes - but whether I stop at McD or BK is up to me
exception - divine intervention
with the assumption that Judeo- Christian theology is based on solid ground the the exception has to be made because God uses people to unfold His plan He chose Moses and hardened Pharaoh's heart He uses people on both sides of the paradigm for these few - terms like predestination might even apply - fate
Overall - on the large scale
I am trapped within God's plan - whatever that is I exercise my humanly free will - unless God taps me on the shoulder I exercise my humanly free will - unless prophesy takes precedence I exercise my humanly free will - until I meet my maker
My conclusion - the only humanly free will we have - is if we choose to seek our Creator or not- whatever that means.
Chandler Klebs - I fully accept the concept of causality. Everything you say about it is correct. But what about the counter argument that causality is actually a function of choice. I choose the things that cause the inevitable affect. This valid exception within the larger scale of - events choose me.
Just as being a part of God's plan - being a victim of a drive by shooting or an asteroid falling on my head are beyond my choice.
My conclusion said another way -
Predestination - is there any truth to it? Again the answer is sure by the rule of the exception of divine intervention. John the Baptist? Peter, Paul - Judas? Hitler? Obama? - Sir Isaac Newton, Giordano Bruno, Einstein
Also - you could say we are all predestined to become one with our maker and I do have the God given FREE WILL to chose how I respond to my own end will I be able to look Him in the eye and shake His hand and say, I have always sought you - or will I just be ashamed for who I am?
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Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 16, 2015 0:13:29 GMT -5
Regarding "I disagree in the absolute I have a Free-Will, which I can use or abuse at at time." I would guess you value goodness, and try to be as good as you can. But you can't be perfectly good because you don't have a free will. Read Romans 9. God himself says that what happens is his will, and not ours. I do have a free-will why do you persist in telling me that I do not have a free-will? Of course I do not have a free-will to defy the laws of nature, fly without wings etc. I can get a knife from my kitchen go outside and murder the first person I come across? Or I can get some good food and find a person in need and give it to him. Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21) If "free will" means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability choose, we also have there responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (Ruth and Rahab). - Some people over emphasize the sovereignty of God in humans lives, to the point that human beings are little more than robots simply doing what they have been sovereignty programmed to do. Others emphasize free will to the point of God not having complete control and/or knowledge of all things. Neither of these positions is biblical or correct. God makes up his mind as to what he has to do and leaves us a chose to do what we want to do. The truth is that God does not violate our wills by choosing us and redeeming us. Rather, He changes our hearts through "Jesus Christ" his only begotten son so that our eyes are opened and our wills concur with his will , and we freely chose to follow the in the will of God. . "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live". (Deut. 30:11–19)
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Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 16, 2015 0:18:12 GMT -5
Regarding "I disagree in the absolute I have a Free-Will, which I can use or abuse at at time." I would guess you value goodness, and try to be as good as you can. But you can't be perfectly good because you don't have a free will. Read Romans 9. God himself says that what happens is his will, and not ours. Of course we are sinful humans, and receiving Christ Jesus frees us from sin and damnation. Bible sates that "Our righteousness is like filthy rags to God"
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Post by Chandler Klebs on Jun 16, 2015 18:33:16 GMT -5
Chandler Klebs - I fully accept the concept of causality. Everything you say about it is correct. But what about the counter argument that causality is actually a function of choice. I choose the things that cause the inevitable affect. This valid exception within the larger scale of - events choose me. My position is that each choice is caused too. So choice is a function of causality rather than causaility being a function of choice. What you said at the end makes perfect sense. Events choose me rather than me choosing them.
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Post by Alan McDougall on Jun 17, 2015 11:55:04 GMT -5
Chandler Klebs - I fully accept the concept of causality. Everything you say about it is correct. But what about the counter argument that causality is actually a function of choice. I choose the things that cause the inevitable affect. This valid exception within the larger scale of - events choose me. My position is that each choice is caused too. So choice is a function of causality rather than causaility being a function of choice. What you said at the end makes perfect sense. Events choose me rather than me choosing them. With the "One" exception Almighty God has absolutely no prior Cause. God is the only "Uncaused -Cause"The silliest question is who made God?. It makes me think of the story of an old lady that insisted that the earth was held up be a colossal turtle. When the skeptic asked her, " What then holds up the turtle that holds up the earth?" She replied "young man" ! "It is turtles all the way down" You simply cannot put an Eternal Infinite Being, in some sort of a human made scientific box or theory.For Gods Sake Someone Admit!! that there are somethings that is simply beyond the capacity of any human to comprehendWe tiny minute finite beings should understand where we actually fit in the "Grand Order of all Existence, Creation and Total Reality. There exist an intelligence o f such infinite knowledge and understanding, control and power, that in comparison, we might be like a group of cockroaches trying to fathom and fully understand the minds of Albert Einstein or Isaac Newton and then argue among each other, as to the exact meaning of their great theories, from the relative, idiotic standpoint of a cockroach that only has a life span of a few weeks. Then each year a cockroach is selected from his peers, for proving that Einstein or Newton got is completely wrong, Receiving the cockroach medal for their great efforts in advancing the understanding of Einsteinic cosmic physics. Dismissing the obvious fact that their greatest achievements are scrunching around in the dark of a human kitchen, looking for decaying food to eat from the droppings of higher forms of life that themselves In fact God is the "Primordial Scientist, Originator of all Mathematical Constants and Equations................................adifinitum ∞.........∞All we puny mere mortal do if find out what already exists. (Mere Mortal Mankind) God has in fact done all the real creation, the best we do if find out what he has already done!
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Post by Chandler Klebs on Jun 17, 2015 14:24:08 GMT -5
If you define god as the first cause, I know god doesn't exist.
"The silliest question is who made God?"
On the contrary, it's the best question to ask. If you just claim that there is no cause of god, then you might as well just believe anything else can happen without cause. That makes you an indeterminist, but it does not grant a free will.
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Post by Dave on Jun 18, 2015 12:13:34 GMT -5
If you define god as the first cause, I know god doesn't exist. "The silliest question is who made God?" On the contrary, it's the best question to ask. If you just claim that there is no cause of god, then you might as well just believe anything else can happen without cause. That makes you an indeterminist, but it does not grant a free will. It is a difference of perspectiveFrom the bottom of the well – the only view is up From the top of the well – the view is 3 dimensional Here is the problem with your argument – you are an one-dimensionalist Everything you say is absolutely true – if we all live in a closed environment that is only physical But you are speaking with people at this forum that are all – multidimensionalist People are on this forum because we all “believe” that our reality is more than just one dimensional Ghosts, shadow people, clairvoyance, or belief in a spirit realm and a Creator – to us – are all evidence to more than just a one-dimensional physical only reality You have a great answer for my “function of choice” counter argument You say - "My position is that each choice is caused too."You did not choose to be born – that wasn’t your choice – it was your mother’s This event chose you – I agree We agree that our ‘first cause’ was out of our control – we are its result So one-dimensionally we are in agreement But I/we are multidimensional thinkers – we entertain concepts of heaven, hades, limbo, purgatory, which equate to a spiritual realm – as for this particular mutltidimensionalist, I see 10Ds and we only occupy 3/10th of it. – For the simplest of theological beliefs – we have our 3D + heaven of reward + a hell for no reward = 5 dimensions to the simplest believer. On the surface – this multidimensional concept might seem to even support your claim that: “So choice is a function of causality rather than causaility being a function of choice.”Because if our 3D reality is influenced by these ‘higher/other’ dimensions – this supports your paradigm I say – man has the illusion of free will – isn’t this the point you want to make yourself? But – as a multidimensionalist – there is one exercise of God given free will I do have Because I am a multidimensionalist – I also believe that I am a spirit having a physical experience Your causality will force me to meet my maker one day – you are absolutely correct in this My only free will choice – will I be prepared? – What does that mean? If I was heading for the tropics I really don’t need to worry about my Alaskan Parka – duh What if I know I am going on an extended trip to a place I know nothing about? Oh sure – people have the public presentation of that knowledge memorized like some cartoon or movie they saw – knowledge is power – too bad the Jews didn’t realize where the German’s were taking them
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