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Post by Dave on Apr 12, 2015 13:09:07 GMT -5
Author John Noe has written extensively on the premise: "If you ask an average Israeli on the street what is meant by the term Heaven and Earth, the answer would be The Temple." From his book, "In his book, The Antiquities of the Jews, he (Josephus) describes how the Jews of Jesus' time looked upon their Temple as 'Heaven and Earth.' They believe their Temple was at the very center of the earth, and saw it as the place where heaven and earth came together, and where God met man. Josephus calls its outer tabernacle 'an imitation of the system of the world' and 'sea and land, on which men live.' He terms the inner, Most Holy Place 'a heaven peculiar to God.'" I am asking the expert here - is this a valid assumption? Especially in the light of Matthew 5:17-18 Read more: ancient-hebrew.proboards.com/thread/3390/heaven-earth?page=1#ixzz3X7TyY6WB
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Larry
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Posts: 56
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Post by Larry on Apr 12, 2015 13:39:40 GMT -5
Sometimes in scripture the Heavens and the Earth mean, the Heavens and the Earth, literally.
Sometimes in scripture the term is used spiritually, ie. a higher level meaning, as in Heaven=ruling powers...earth= the subjects on the earth. This can be of the nation of Israel, or other ruling powers. For an example, Rev 12:1 speaks of a woman clothed with the sun(She is in power), with the moon under her feet(Subjects under her control), with a crown of stars.... symbols of the initial ruling power of the Christian Church under Constantine (~332AD). The church was supposed to be chaste(virgin) but she spiritually fornicated with the nations around and thus became pregnant with a man-child(Constantine), who was responsible for marrying together paganism with Christianity(which is why we have so much confusion nowadays!)...etc....
A good example of this heaven/Earth symbolism being used for Israel is in Jer 4:23:
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
The context that is establish in the first verse and throughout is speaking about Israel as a nation. Thu the prophet here is declaring the spiritual state of Israel, which was formless, void(without understanding).
The way to this understanding is through the Christ. The tabernacle/temple was a method of teaching the nation how to approach YHWH who dwells between the cherubim. This process is shown with starting in the outer court with Brass, a metal represent scriptural the flesh nature of man, which is opposite than the nature of YHWH himself.....Man learns he need to have this nature purified(purged), and as he approaches the Most Holy, the metals increase in importance of meaning...silver for redemption, Gold for refined, tried faith.
The mercy-seat is representative of the Christ. I believe also so do the other objects in the tabernacle have an element pointing toward the Christ, such as the veil separating the Holy from the Most Holy. Scripture teaches this veil represented the Flesh nature of the Christ. At his crucifixion, that Flesh nature was rent from top to bottom (Mark 15:38), which we are told opened the way for mankind to enter the Most Holy, through the same example as the Christ(Heb 10:20; 6:19 -20; 9:3 ), that is by self-sacrifice of our fleshly instincts(inclinations).
Scripturally, there is much evidence to support the view that the the Most Holy place represented the heavens(where YHWH dwells in complete perfection), and the outside of the Most Holy initially represented a divide(earth)...but now the WAY of proper approach(access) has been clearly demonstrated in the life, death and resurrection of the Christ.
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Post by Richard on Apr 15, 2015 21:39:46 GMT -5
David,
I see a relationship between Bara of heaven and earth in Genesis 1:1, the Berit (covenant) between YHWH and human being since the Garden of Eden and the temple(s)
When the veil of the temple was rent in twain Matthew 27:51, it was a sign that the kingdom of God (heaven and earth) was taken from the unbelievers Matthew 21:43 and was given to those who would take the new Berit seriously.
in my two cents that's the relationship between the temple, the heaven and earth and the covenant.
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Post by Dave on Apr 18, 2015 8:02:26 GMT -5
Thank for all the input - I have been playing with this for a while now. It is true that expression “Heaven and Earth” has at least 3 different meanings Physical Earth and Spiritual Heaven The old empire of Babylon Isa 13:13, 19:22 The Temple Mount John Noe’s argument is this: When Christ spoke the words of Mat 5:18, 24:35; and Luke 16:17, 21:33; Christ was not speaking about the physical earth because He would be contradicting Scripture Isaiah 45:17 …world without end Ephesians 3:21… world without end Psalms 104:5… the earth, that it should not be removed forever. Psalms 119:90 … the earth endures forever Christ could not be referring to the old Babylonian Empire because it had already passed away Which only leaves – Heaven and Earth - the Old Covenant, the Temple, Isa 1:2, 51:13-16, Deut. 32:1-43 John Noe then tries his hardest to make the point that Jesus was standing on the Mount of Olives when he spoke the words of Mat 5:18, 24:35; and Luke 16:17, 21:33, which is just a short distance across the Kidron Valley from the Temple Mount. The Temple would have been in full view of the crowd. Everyone in the crowd would have understood the Phrase “Heaven and Earth” to be the Temple (especially if Jesus gestured in that direction) and “… it is an historical fact that everything from the old covenant passed away/disappeared – the Temple, animal sacrifices, the priesthood, and the genealogies … except the Word of God.” John Noe, Unraveling the End, pg 168 Just something to Ponder Read more: ancient-hebrew.proboards.com/thread/3390/heaven-earth#ixzz3XfK8aTrB
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Stella
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Post by Stella on Apr 26, 2015 11:34:55 GMT -5
Acts 21:26. Slaughterings WERE still considered to be kept.
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
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Post by Richard on Jun 20, 2015 15:55:22 GMT -5
Acts 21:26. Slaughterings WERE still considered to be kept. Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. This is confusing. Per John Knoe's argument, the law did not pass away until heaven and earth did. That was 70 AD Paul is pre 70 AD and for those who have always lived under the Old Covenant is still under the Law until then. Although, Paul was a Hebrew, but there is no record of him sacrificing other than this verse.
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Stella
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Posts: 62
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Post by Stella on Jun 28, 2015 10:19:15 GMT -5
"Although slaughter for sacrifice contradicts a basic belief of Christianity, it is practiced by local Catholics, Greek Orthodox and other Christians at the ruined Byzantine church of Saint George in the village of Taybeh, 20 miles from Jerusalem. "Around 70 to 80 lambs are sacrificed here each year," said the Roman Catholic priest, Father Raed. Similar sacrifices are also made in the towns of Lodd, Jaffa, al-Khadar and elsewhere in the Holy Land." I got his from www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/dec/15/no-role-animal-sacrifice-christianityWhy would these Christians continue to sacrifice? Paul continued to sacrifice in the Book of Acts.
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Post by Dave on Jun 28, 2015 15:00:39 GMT -5
Personally, I believe it is because these people do not have a personal relationship with the Father. Therefore they try to be as compliant as possible. Many Eastern Orthodox Christians keep Jewish feasts in order to be compliant with the demand of scripture.
They do what their mind thinks is correct - not what their heart says is correct.
From your article it says: "The Catholic priest in Taybeh assured me that he himself did not take part in the sacrificial rituals, but neither did he condemn them. "The meat is distributed to the poor and to our old people's home. It is a tradition," he added."
Holding onto tradition is his best answer - then he sounds like a Rabbi - "The meat is distributed to the poor and to our old people's home."
I say he sounds like a Rabbi because at a Hebrew discussion board I am told over and over that we Christians do not understand the Torah's requirement for sacrifice. Many there use the term BBQ. A sacrifice at the Jerusalem Temple was a BBQ for the priest. This is why they demanded the best meat. Perhaps they take this view to mitigate the Crucifixion.
I try and argue the point with them, but do not know ancient Hebrew customs like they do and they consider themselves linguist and study ancient Canaanite languages. I lack the expertise there to root out personal beliefs, only the standard Hebrew party line.
For me - I hang my hat on Psalms 51 - the true sacrifice to the Lord is a broken and contrite heart!
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Post by Richard on Jun 28, 2015 17:42:21 GMT -5
It happen more than we know Back in 2006 the State of Texas passed legislation that permits animal sacrifices to be performed as part of an African / Hatian vodu cult. Talk about Christians standing by and allowing the unthinkable to happen in our own back yard. I also just found these stories on the web: THE SUPREME COURT: Animal Sacrifice; Court, Citing Religious Freedom, Voids a Ban on Animal SacrificesBy LINDA GREENHOUSE, Published: June 12, 1993 WASHINGTON, June 11— The Supreme Court ruled today that a Florida city's ban on ritual animal sacrifice violated the religious freedom of the followers of an Afro-Cuban religion in which the sacrifice of animals plays a central role. Jewish Animal Sacrifice in America’s Streets Protected by GovernmentOCTOBER 02, 2014, AFP, By Dave Gahary While AMERICAN FREE PRESS reported in December, 2011 on how Orthodox Jewish ritual practiced on the eve of a major Jewish holiday is shining a bright light on how political influence can trump even the vilest of religious practices. Kapparot, or kaporos, where an Orthodox Jew, or frum, swings a live chicken over their head three times and then slaughters them, is occurring in the streets of Hasidic neighborhoods across America this week in preparation for the holiest day of the year for Jews, the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur. americanfreepress.net/?p=19941#sthash.fDYyNYdA.dpuf
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