A hello

[Deleted]

There doesn't seem to be an official area for introductions so I'll plunk one in here.

I'm hoping to converse with like-minded people here. What do I mean by "like-minded"?  People who consider the possible kernels of truth in global disciplines, faiths, religions, etc. People who are willing to listen as much as they're willing to speak. People who will respect another's path as dearly as they defend their own. People who will question in order to understand another's perspective not simply in order to challenge, refute, or argue.

I believe this is an immense challenge for most people because we humans seem to want to be right more than we're willing to learn. We also mean such different things when we use the same words. For example, the term "evil". My definition has become much broader over the years. I perceive evil on the whole to be anything an individual decides is distasteful to them. So when you consider on a global scale the distance between one persons' displeasure vs. another's displeasure there seems to be no common ground that exists between the two.

I hope to find common ground here, no matter the distance.

[Dave]

Welcome

Welcome

Looking forward to the discussion. Ever notice how we can see something so clearly, then some one new phrases it just a little differently, and suddenly it all looks different. Mix it up - spit it out. Everyone has a question and an opinion. We would love to explore both. Correct our errors, teach us something new, fellowship with us on the path, keep us on track. I am already poised to respond to your evil comments, but you get the first question.

Your demographics as to physical location is desired, but not required
Although it is interesting to correlate attitudes as to geographical location

Our demographics so far include Iran, Australia, Philippines, The US States of Washington, Colorado, Arizona, Indiana, and several unknowns.

[Deleted]

Thank you for the welcome.

Just to get my feet wet let me pursue this idea of "evil". When I hear someone say something is evil I interpret it to mean, they have an extreme feeling of displeasure regarding something. Yet, what one person regards as evil may be viewed as desireable to another. So, are there "things" that are inherently evil to all people, no matter the environmental and cultural influences in their lives? If so, what would those be?

[Dave]

I understand your point - however, theologically speaking, your perspective only considers the evil from the position of humanity. I know Hollywood and literature has us thinking that evil is something viscous, sinister, unbalanced behavior involving expediency, selfishness, ignorance, or neglect.

However, theological evil looks nothing like a devil with a pitch fork and a pointed tail. Theological evil looks more like the charismatic leader of a Baptist cult or Unitarian church.

A well known Rabbi and I had a conversation about this. In Hebrew, Good and Evil are the 'tov' and the 'ra.' My question was that the 'ra' often passes itself off as the 'tov' - so - can the 'tov' ever pass it self off as the 'ra.'

It was a long discussion - but from his expertise, he sees the 'tov' and 'ra' not as our vocabulary of Good and Evil, but rather by the definition of 'Function' versus 'Dysfunction.'

Function being moving toward God in spirit
Dysfunction being moving away from God in spirit.

[Richard]

Hello Atarah

Buena Vista Colorado here. Welcome!
I hold a chair at the Buena Vista Church of Friends. I am no expert, but love the Lord.

Other than your name being Hebrew - "crown"- She was a minor Old Testament character, the wife of Jerahmeel.
Does your name men something else to you?

I have known Dave since 2002 and over the years we have had many heated discussions.
I can't say that I agree with Dave many times, but I can't say that I disagree either.

You said that people should respect another's path. Hmmmmmm?

One thing that Dave and I do agree on is that many false religions are fathered by the dark side. False prophets with false messages.

Deu 18:22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovah Witness movement predicted the 2nd coming to be in 1914, then 1918(WWI drove many people to the JW), and finally he said the 2nd coming would be 1925. His replacement predicted that millions alive in 1925 would never die because the rapture is coming.

To date the score for the JW are 4 wrong and 0 correct - were their prophets from God?

Sorry, I do not respect the JW path and every time they come to my house I try my best to show them the error of their way.

But, that is just me.

[Richard]

After reading my post, let me say this about other paths.

Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Is it impossible - NO. Is it probable - NO. But scripture does leave an avenue for salvation outside of formal Christianity.

Enoch, Elisha, Isaiah, Moses, Noah, or Abraham were not Christian. YET!

[Deleted]

Jun 21, 2014 8:58:42 GMT -5 Dave said:

I understand your point - however, theologically speaking, your perspective only considers the evil from the position of humanity. I know Hollywood and literature has us thinking that evil is something viscous, sinister, unbalanced behavior involving expediency, selfishness, ignorance, or neglect.

However, theological evil looks nothing like a devil with a pitch fork and a pointed tail. Theological evil looks more like the charismatic leader of a Baptist cult or Unitarian church.

A well known Rabbi and I had a conversation about this. In Hebrew, Good and Evil are the 'tov' and the 'ra.' My question was that the 'ra' often passes itself off as the 'tov' - so - can the 'tov' ever pass it self off as the 'ra.'

It was a long discussion - but from his expertise, he sees the 'tov' and 'ra' not as our vocabulary of Good and Evil, but rather by the definition of 'Function' versus 'Dysfunction.'

Function being moving toward God in spirit
Dysfunction being moving away from God in spirit.

Indeed, my focus is to understand the perspections of who I'm listening to without interjecting my own views which may be very different. To perceive through my own eyes would only lead to confusion, so I suspend my perceptions in order to understand another more clearly for a bit.

Secular entertainment is just that and I have less than a little time for it. I haven't owned a tv in more than a decade and when I have the misfortune to view snippets at someone else's home I'm astonished at what seems to appeal to the masses. Even if you find an interesting program, you have to contend with the commercials.

What! No devil with a pitch fork? Guess I'll take down that figure I've been using as a dart board.

Interesting take on Good and Evil from your Rabbi friend.  Would you be willing to pass on his name so I may check out his views on other related concepts?

Perhaps I should also ask what your definition of "God" and "spirit" is? Just for clarity's sake. That seems to often differ also.

[Deleted]

Jun 21, 2014 15:21:34 GMT -5 Richard said:

Hello Atarah

Buena Vista Colorado here. Welcome!
I hold a chair at the Buena Vista Church of Friends. I am no expert, but love the Lord.

Other than your name being Hebrew - "crown"- She was a minor Old Testament character, the wife of Jerahmeel.
Does your name men something else to you?

I have known Dave since 2002 and over the years we have had many heated discussions.
I can't say that I agree with Dave many times, but I can't say that I disagree either.

You said that people should respect another's path. Hmmmmmm?

One thing that Dave and I do agree on is that many false religions are fathered by the dark side. False prophets with false messages.

Deu 18:22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovah Witness movement predicted the 2nd coming to be in 1914, then 1918(WWI drove many people to the JW), and finally he said the 2nd coming would be 1925. His replacement predicted that millions alive in 1925 would never die because the rapture is coming.

To date the score for the JW are 4 wrong and 0 correct - were their prophets from God?

Sorry, I do not respect the JW path and every time they come to my house I try my best to show them the error of their way.

But, that is just me.

Good morning sir,

Pacific Northwest, ruralville. Thank you for the welcome.   My name has come to mean many things to me but for starters it's simply the Hebrew rendering of my English name.

Could you share your definition of "Lord" so I may always be sensitive to your beliefs?

Actually, I didn't say people "should" respect another's path.  I said that was an example of someone who would be like-minded.  I do not presume to dictate to anyone their behavior or perceptions.  That is between them and their God. And my definition of my God will have to wait til another time because I have other things I must do at present.

Have a beautiful day.

[Dave]

Perhaps I should also ask what your definition of "God" and "spirit" is? Just for clarity's sake. That seems to often differ also.


Fair question - I really respect your attention to semantics.


God - (with a capital G)
That initial singularity that contained all the energy and consciousness that existed before Creation.
The E of the mc². Undescribable, undefinable, the Creator of the ALL.

As a multidimensionalist, when God 'bara' (Hebrew word meaning 'to fatten'- and sloppily translated as created)our universe, He just didn't make 3 dimensions, He made (most likely) 10 dimensions - a multiverse. Therefore, the Trinity fits perfectly within the paradigm of a multiverse. 1st dimension singularity that contains all data, all information, all energy, which would be both omnipotent and omniscient. Which spread to form the Omnipresent matrix or either of that multiverse. Our 3rd dimension is just the 1st expressed through the 2nd for give form to the 3rd.

god - (with a small g)
Literally - Anyone of a number of created beings acting as posers. Baal, Moloch, Zeus, etc, etc
Arrogant beings that desire to be worshiped. The Archon. And one of the biggest differences between Gnostic Christianity and Romanology.
Figuratively - anything that consumes your focus. Money, fame, etc.

Lord -
Anyone that is your master - human or spiritual.

Spirit -
Hmmm? This is the hardest one. Basically, I do not know. The energy of an entity's essence? Thought? The thing that occupies my mind's eye? The ancient Gnostic term is 'our inner novis.' That part of me that will continue after my physicality perishes? Our biology dictates instinct - greed, lust, desire, etc - while spirit dictates Love, compassion, and the ability to understand the abstract. That breath that was breathed into us in Gen 2:7 that made us a living soul and different from the animals.

I am sorry if I gave you the impression that Jeff Brenner and I were friends. Although, we have interacted several times and I have several of his books in my library. If you are looking for a Jewish perspective you should check out his web-site. I highly recommend it.

www.ancient-hebrew.org/

What little (very little) Hebrew that I do know was learned at that web-site and I return there time and time again with my Hebrew language questions.

[Dave]

Pacific Northwest, ruralville

Within the last 4 years, my family and I have spend 1 yr and 9 months of it at the Coleville Indian Reservation. Wedged between, Coulee Dam, Omak, and Republic Washington. (about 90 miles northwest of Spokane)We spent 1 yr at the Coulee House Inn right at the face of the dam and another 9 months in Omak.

We loved your area, but I refused to take my kids back there again because of Fukashima.

I have so many notes from my time there. It was so refreshing to speak to people that will discuss spirits like most people discuss football.

[Dillon]

Alternative paths to salvation?

Hebrews 9:27

Optimum chance - death - 2nd chance (but unable to obtain same reward as Optimum chance) - Judgment Day - 3rd and last chance

Salvation has to be available after death, because it was made available to everyone who died before Christ. This also fits the pattern of "for all will be saved." Won't people believe once they wake up on the other side?

To be face to face with the truth and turn away, now that would be hell.

[Richard]

I am sorry guys, I think I have run off our new member.
If I was out of line - I apologize.

[Dave]

Everyone like to talk, if everyone agrees with them.

But to stand and defend their opinions and beliefs - is that to much to ask, or expect?


No Worries

(call me)

[Dillon]

Way to go Rich!

Maybe she was a JW?

[Dave]

I wouldn't worry about it guys.

Religion / faith is a touchy subject for many. If your easily offended, if you are not willing to support and defend you own opinions and beliefs, then why would anyone ever engage in the conversation?

As far as the JW go - Richard got his anti-JW rant from me.

(ONE)I first establish that they accept the Bible is God's Word
Once we are all in agreement, I bring up those verses about recognizing a prophet as from God.
The result is always predictable

Some younger members don't even know who Charles Taze Russell was - and they certainly never studied these 2 verses - if they are polite, they back away, excuse themselves, going to their Elders for more training and guidance and promise to return better equipped to answer my question. They never return, The conversation stops and they leave.

Some are trained to say that my verses are Old Law and Jesus is a superseding Law. So, I make the point that according to them OT is not relevant, or should be takes so literary and serious. I therefore agree to listen, but not to any OT references. Opps - now they have much to say. The conversation stops and they leave.

Some try to evade the scripture, which always brings me back to (ONE)- The conversation stops and they leave.

Some, just turn and run - The conversation stops and they leave.

I am so disappointed - The conversation stops and they leave.

You guys known me by now - I love to sit and discuss these topics. I can go on for days if left unchecked. Yet, the conversation stops and they leave. I don't really get it.

If you are secure in what you "believe" - then how could we, or any one and anything, offend or insult you?

If you are not sure what you "believe" - then how could an esoteric conversation offend or insult?