Stella
Junior Member
Use me O Lord
Posts: 62
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Post by Stella on Sept 6, 2013 11:22:52 GMT -5
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Post by Dave on Sept 6, 2013 11:57:19 GMT -5
What a good pot Stella and thanks for re-posting it here.
From: Wki Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God. John Calvin interpreted biblical predestination to mean that God willed eternal damnation for some people and salvation for others. Explanations of predestination often seek to address the so-called "paradox of free will", whereby God's omniscience seems incompatible with human free will. In this usage, predestination can be regarded as a form of religious determinism; and usually predeterminism.
The paradox of free will.
As many of you know, I have been working all year on book #2. Months ago, as I started this project, I had a clear idea of exactly where I wanted it to go. But an interesting things has cropped up and your combined inputs on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Christendom teaches us that Lucifer was once an Angel of Light, who became arrogant and rose up against God in heaven. Now known as the Devil and Satan he becomes the leader of the opposition to humanity in a war that began in heaven.
BUT - Jesus said - This is how we should pray: Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee. (This prayer has been repeated aloud as a group in almost every church I have attended - curious?)
Matthew 6:7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Bla bla bla - man have I ever met these people!)
Matthew 6:8 Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. (Christendom really needs to read this verse)
But my point:
Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
Thy will be done, as in heaven,
Jesus tells us clearly - God's will is done in heaven!
Christendom also teaches us that Angels do not have free will - they only do the Father bidding:
Psalms 103:20 Bless Jehovah, ye his angels, That are mighty in strength, that fulfil his word, Hearkening unto the voice of his word. 21 Bless Jehovah, all ye his hosts, Ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.
So, if only God's will is done in heaven - and - the angels only do God's bidding. Then logic dictates that it was God's will for the Devil and 1/3 of the angels to revolt.
So, was this an example of a FREE WILL CHOICE - or - an example of predestination?
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Post by Richard on Sept 6, 2013 17:31:53 GMT -5
Predestination?
I guess I have always been taught that there is no predestination, but only free will. But scripture is full of people who were born for a specific purpose.
Isaac Jacob Joseph Moses David John the baptist To name a few.
Could have any of these men evaded their destiny, fate, predestined purpose. What an interesting question.
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Post by Dave on Sept 8, 2013 12:29:27 GMT -5
You know, sometimes I wonder if Judas doesn't get a bad wrap! Christendom teaches that Judas was a bad guy and he is most certainly in hell now! BUT - how could have prophesy been fulfilled, if Judas didn't do what he did? John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. 23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. 25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. Let's see - what are we told here? Jesus says, ... one of you shall betray me.Peter asked Jesus specifically - who is it? Jesus answered and said, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it.The very next thing Jesus did was ... he gave it to Judas Iscariot Then Jesus says to Judas, That thou doest, do quickly.BUT - no one had a clue it was Judas? The Contemporary English Version of the New Testament says, “Judas, go quickly and do what you have to do.” Do what you have to do, Others translate it as, do what you must do. Did Judas have a choice? Was Judas performing God's will on earth? Was not Judas' actions a required part of the story?
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Larry
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by Larry on Apr 26, 2014 11:30:42 GMT -5
I have reading different things here and at your parent webpage. There are some interesting ideas here, but in my Christian walk over the years I have two basic questions that are never answered to my satisfaction by Church.
If God only does good and only greates good things, then where did evil come from?
The Church is actually suggesting another creative event by another creator. After all, if evil exist (which I am sure we all agree that it does) God did not create it, then someone else did, or it created itself. Again, I say, 2 creative events by two different creators.
If Satan was a glorious angel before he choose to be evil then Satan must have had the FREE WILL to do so; but my Church teaches that angels don't have the FREE Will to choose.
I understand why you call the website pondering confusion, Ant thoughts?
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Post by Dave on Apr 27, 2014 11:44:45 GMT -5
OMG - I just wrote almost the very same question in a receint email
Here's the thing:
In Judaism: The predominate Rabbinic view is called The Primacy of God Meaning - that God does it all Isaiah 45:8 I create the light and the dark, I create the good and the evil, I am God who does all things God made the angels without FREE WILL and they do only the jobs God assigns them Sometimes God picks an angel to act as 'The Accuser' (Satan) Isaiah 14 says nothing about Satan, but is talking about a star (probably the planet Venus) God sent the Satan onto Job God sent the evil spirits to Saul It was God that hardened Pharoh's heart Why does God sent the accuser to tempt and test the people Duet. 13:1-3 God test His people to see if they truely love God with all their heart
In Islam: God created it all and does a lot of mischeif himself God created the angels without FREE WILL and they do only as God instructs However - In islam, God created the Djinn out of smoke and fire The Djinn have free will and roam the earth in any form they choose (shape shifters) The Djinn plague man by offering him an alternative to God Wish fulfillment - genie in the bottle stuff - allow us to corrupt ourselves The Djinn cause sickness and start wars
In the Gnostic belief: God created the angels without FREE WILL Sometimes God sends one of His angels in the role of 'The Accuser'(Satan) However, the Holy Spirit created life without Gods approval - it was ugly and corrupt The Holy Spirit hide The Chief Archon in smoke and fire The Chief Archon, unaware of how he was created, assumed that he was the first in creation and declared that he was God The Chief Archon, reproduced himself into an army of Archon The Archon have FREE WILL and do whatever they choose God asked for a volunteer from the angels to babysit the Chief Archon Satan (could be any angel) is in charge of Hades, the domain of the Chief Archon (The Devil) It was the Archon that came to earth in Gen 6:4 and fathered the Nephilim Ejected from earth by the flood - the Archon inhabit the 7 visible planets of our own solar system However, the Archon and Nephilim return to visit and plague man The Archon's mission is to keep humanity quagmired in this corporeal world - so we forget who we really are To prevent us from growing and maturing spiritually After the flood these Archon plague man as evil spirits and lesser gods seeking worship of their own Baal, Moloch, Ra, Marduck, evil spirits, demons, (Djinn), and devils are all Archon God uses these Archon just as He uses Satan - to accuse and plague man This is all a part of what the Gnostic call the Great Contest
(My opinion) The Archon often present themselves to Christian leaders posing as angels from God. This is how the Archon usurped the Christian faith. Offering a pseudo-christian mythology we know as Roman Christendom.
In Christendom (which I call Western Tradition, Roman Catholic, Catholic, and Protestant.): God created the angels without FREE WILL - but a 1/3 of them exercised their free will to rebel The Lord's prayer tells us that God's will is done in heaven - except for those rebellious 1/3 God only created the good - in spite of what Isaiah 45:8 says - contrary to Judaism God did not create evil - He simply allowed it to happen - (here is your second creator and creative event) Isaiah 14 tells the story of how Satan rose up against God - contrary to Judaism At the end of the story - Rev 12 tells us that the Devil and his 1/3 are banished from heaven and cast down to earth But, at the beginning of the story, these now FALLEN angels appear in Gen 6 - never understood the time management here Yet, there isn't a connection between these Fallen guys and evil spirits and/or demons
Catholics believe in evil spirits and possession Many Protestant groups do not believe this The Pastor of my local Church of Christ told me there is no such thing as evil spirits or active possession after Christ The wife of that same Pastor stood in church in rebuttal to my comments saying, God loves her and God would NEVER allow any harm to come to her In direct contrast to each and every person within the Bible - Peter, Paul, James, Steven, etc, etc, etc (I wonder if she would feel forsaken by God if someone fed her to the lions)
My current position: I am more inline with the Gnostic persuasion God did not make the Chief Archon himself - but he did allow it to happen The Church of Christ gang clings to James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; GOD DOES NOT TEMP ANYONE! - and they are correct - but God uses the Chief Archon and his Djinn, as well as, Satan to do that for Him FREE WILL - angels NO, they only do what they are told -- However, the Archon are a completely different group of beings that do have FREE WILL
In Gnosticism, the Great Contest is brought about between 3 different factions 1. Spiritual Man having a physical experience, animal, in this 3D reality we call corporeal 2. The Archon / Djinn / Nephilim / and Satan all using this corporeal world against us. To keep us from developing spiritually 3. God, heaven, and the hope of peace once we return to that spiritual existence
This is why we are told over and over that we are not to be of this world (overcome the corporeal) and aspire to the next (spiritual)
James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
And the whole purpose of the Great Contest?
Duet. 13:1-3 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,".
James 1:12 (NIV) Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
James 1:12 (KJV) Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
King David begged the Lord - Psalms 26:2 (NIV) Test me, LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my mind;
Interestingly this seems to be in agreement with the role of the Western Tradition Christian Religion - Christendom The local church serves a great function. If people have a question, they need a structured place to begin their study. My problem with this is that t is a trap. People check in, buy the paraphernalia, attend the meeting, say the prayers; but 30 years later they are still sitting in the same pew stuck in entry level Christendom. People need to think for themselves instead of letting some long dead Catholic priest instruct them on what to think. This is the trap set by the Archon. As the song goes - "You can check in, but you can never leave." Just look at how far Christendom has polluted and diluted the truth. Be a Jehovah Witness if you want. A Mormon maybe. Or even a Unitarian that doesn't believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection!
Archons 1 - Man 0
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