Post by Dave on Jul 29, 2013 13:07:43 GMT -5
In a different discussion, I felt as though I came across as an anti-feminist. But I am not sure that I am. Let’s discuss it again. I’ll state my position and you guys can correct me if I am in error.
We exist as duality – spirit and animal. We live in a duality – spiritual and secular. Both sides of our nature and lives are as different as night and day. In the secular realm, women can do and be anything they wish. Absolutely 100% equality! However, if we cast off the things of this world, if we cast off secularism, and only focus on seeking the kingdom of God then Biblically the rules change.
My story,
I grew up in an area with many strongly convicted fundamentalist. My x-wife came from a family with many Pentecostals we jokingly referred to as Holy Rollers. My sister married an x-Amish man and I spent many tears working in a factory that had a stable in the parking lot for the Amish employees. My parents were born in 1908 and 1912. My grandparents possibly never saw one another naked. I remember my grandmother changing her clothes in the bathroom without the light on. I often wonder how the Puritan Pilgrims would have reacted if they landed on Miami Beach today? They would have had to all poke their eyes out and America would have never formed.
When I became divorced, many of my friends and family considered me lost. It was even worse when I remarried. Ostracized, I spent years running from the Lord; but thankfully he pulled me back. In the process, I began to look at some of those fundamental “Christian” social stamps and not quite scripturally based.
Jesus tells us that if we even look at another person we are committing adultery – boy is that a hard one in this day and age. Yet, Jacob fathered the twelve tribes if Israel by five different women. He was married to 3 and 2 were slaves. King David is famous for his personal transgressions. King Solomon had how many wives and concubines? In fact, I am instructed that if my brother dies I am to take his wife as my own.
But Christendom says these are all OT laws and today we live under the NT and there is a new attitude.
OK – In that other discussion I made the comment that, the NT specifically says that I, as a man, am responsible for the spiritual welfare of my family. Is there a verse that says this? NO. But what it does say is:
1Co 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.
Paul goes on to say, that this just isn’t his opinion, a commandment of the Lord:
1Co 14:37 If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.
But today, Christendom says that these verses are dated and no longer relevant – in essence Christendom as authorized these selected verses to be overlooked and ignored. Well, if these verses can be redacted from NT scripture, then we also have to redact:
1Ti 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
Well – now that we have the authority to redact verses – just where do we stop? Certainly no one except the Amish and Mennonite follow:
1Ti 2:9 In like manner, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefastness and sobriety; not with braided hair, and gold or pearls or costly raiment; 10 but (which becometh women professing godliness) through good works.
Speaking only in reference to scripture and to the spiritual side of our nature – if we can, in good conscious, completely disregard these verses within he NT then several questions come to mind:
1. What other verses can we disregard? Who has the authority to pick and choose which scripture is relevant or not?
2. If we as Christians endorse the redacting of these passages, what are we saying about the validity of all of scripture? If we disregard these verses as not relevant, then who is to say that the verses about the virgin birth are relevant? Or perhaps the resurrection? Both of these concepts are harder to understand today than spirituality being patriarchal.
3. I have been reading in the book of Amos lately The Samarians were a matriarchal society. The NIV is the most unkind in its word usage:
Amos 4:1 Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, "Bring us some drinks!"
The passage goes on to speak of mansions and gardens. And as I read this I think of the VANITY referred to in 1 Tim 2:9. Vanity is a sin we are told and vanity is usually the prominence of women (not always).
Here are my two questions that I would like to hear answers to.
1. Is keeping the verses of 1st Cor 14 and 1st Tim an insult to secular feminism?
2. In all the talk of how the world would be better off if women ruled the world, just how much of the Samarian problem was due to it being ruled by women?
We exist as duality – spirit and animal. We live in a duality – spiritual and secular. Both sides of our nature and lives are as different as night and day. In the secular realm, women can do and be anything they wish. Absolutely 100% equality! However, if we cast off the things of this world, if we cast off secularism, and only focus on seeking the kingdom of God then Biblically the rules change.
My story,
I grew up in an area with many strongly convicted fundamentalist. My x-wife came from a family with many Pentecostals we jokingly referred to as Holy Rollers. My sister married an x-Amish man and I spent many tears working in a factory that had a stable in the parking lot for the Amish employees. My parents were born in 1908 and 1912. My grandparents possibly never saw one another naked. I remember my grandmother changing her clothes in the bathroom without the light on. I often wonder how the Puritan Pilgrims would have reacted if they landed on Miami Beach today? They would have had to all poke their eyes out and America would have never formed.
When I became divorced, many of my friends and family considered me lost. It was even worse when I remarried. Ostracized, I spent years running from the Lord; but thankfully he pulled me back. In the process, I began to look at some of those fundamental “Christian” social stamps and not quite scripturally based.
Jesus tells us that if we even look at another person we are committing adultery – boy is that a hard one in this day and age. Yet, Jacob fathered the twelve tribes if Israel by five different women. He was married to 3 and 2 were slaves. King David is famous for his personal transgressions. King Solomon had how many wives and concubines? In fact, I am instructed that if my brother dies I am to take his wife as my own.
But Christendom says these are all OT laws and today we live under the NT and there is a new attitude.
OK – In that other discussion I made the comment that, the NT specifically says that I, as a man, am responsible for the spiritual welfare of my family. Is there a verse that says this? NO. But what it does say is:
1Co 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.
Paul goes on to say, that this just isn’t his opinion, a commandment of the Lord:
1Co 14:37 If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.
But today, Christendom says that these verses are dated and no longer relevant – in essence Christendom as authorized these selected verses to be overlooked and ignored. Well, if these verses can be redacted from NT scripture, then we also have to redact:
1Ti 2:12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
Well – now that we have the authority to redact verses – just where do we stop? Certainly no one except the Amish and Mennonite follow:
1Ti 2:9 In like manner, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefastness and sobriety; not with braided hair, and gold or pearls or costly raiment; 10 but (which becometh women professing godliness) through good works.
Speaking only in reference to scripture and to the spiritual side of our nature – if we can, in good conscious, completely disregard these verses within he NT then several questions come to mind:
1. What other verses can we disregard? Who has the authority to pick and choose which scripture is relevant or not?
2. If we as Christians endorse the redacting of these passages, what are we saying about the validity of all of scripture? If we disregard these verses as not relevant, then who is to say that the verses about the virgin birth are relevant? Or perhaps the resurrection? Both of these concepts are harder to understand today than spirituality being patriarchal.
3. I have been reading in the book of Amos lately The Samarians were a matriarchal society. The NIV is the most unkind in its word usage:
Amos 4:1 Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, "Bring us some drinks!"
The passage goes on to speak of mansions and gardens. And as I read this I think of the VANITY referred to in 1 Tim 2:9. Vanity is a sin we are told and vanity is usually the prominence of women (not always).
Here are my two questions that I would like to hear answers to.
1. Is keeping the verses of 1st Cor 14 and 1st Tim an insult to secular feminism?
2. In all the talk of how the world would be better off if women ruled the world, just how much of the Samarian problem was due to it being ruled by women?