Sorry Dave, the link did not work, but I have edited the post with the uploaded as an attachment.
My other introduction material is also not posted here.... bother
Dave - You scolded me – I should have all my references saved to may hard drive – you even told me it was labeled C:Investigating Nemeniah Gordon's word study on "elohim"
(1) Gordon"
Does the majestic plural form of Elohim implies that there is anything multiple about God? To help clarify this it is worth looking at the few instances where the majestic plural form of Elohim is used to refer to someone other than YHWH.
The clearest example of this is in Exodus 7:1. In this passage YHWH tells Moses that he will make him an Elohim to Pharaoh: "Behold I have made you an Elohim to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet" (Exodus 7:1).
Certainly this does not mean that YHWH made Moses into a god, but rather that he would speak to Pharaoh with authority through Aaron who would serve as his mouth-piece in the way that the prophets serve as the mouth-pieces of YHWH. In any event, there is clearly nothing multiple about Moses, even though he was made an Elohim to Pharaoh. (1) ROB's discussion of Gordons discussion:
Gordon" Does the majestic plural form of Elohim implies that there is anything multiple about God?(a) "
Certainly this does not mean that YHWH made Moses into a god"
Correct, the word elohiym does not mean "god" is the first place, however, the translators have assumed this. Jeff Benner's translation of "power" is closer to the mark. A better translation is "family-power", but this is
not the usual meaning of a human family. We see things darkly.
(b) "
but rather that he(Moses) would speak to Pharaoh with authority "
Correct, the word "elohiym" means "with strong authority".
(c) "
In any event, there is clearly nothing multiple about Moses"
Huh? Gordon is mocking his study, showing bias. What does Gordon mean by multiple?
Dave - if you do not understand what is said – how can you use this paper to prove a family of multiple gods?
How many Moses were there – only one – elohiym – one - DUH
Once you have "a divine el", "a mortal human supporter", "a brother of the human", you have a multiple, whatever that word means? multiple entities for power flow, a system for communicating messages from God, etc
I suggest Gordon define his terms first?
You should learn to read EnglishHe is mocking your view - God in heaven + God on earth = 2 gods = a multiple(1) ROB's Study : Gordon does not consider the Hebrew word "al" usually spelt as "el" for the reader, but assumes the readers understands the word meaning of "authority".
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1043.htm A study of "al"
The Hebrew word "el" means one of strong authority. The letters tell you this "a" means "strong" and "l" means "authority", so "AL" means "Strong Authority" in Ancient Hebrew script. Does Gordon support Ancient Hebrew script? I doubt this idea, it's recent research.
Ps 36:6 Thy righteousness is like the "El" "singular numerical ONE of Strong Authority" of the mountains;
God's righteous is like ONE mountain.
Ps 80:10 The hills were covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof were like the "El" "singular numerical ONE of Strong Authority" of cedars
The trees are like ONE forest of cedars.
De 4:24 For the LORD "Yahweh" thy God "Elohiym" is a consuming fire, even a jealous "El" "singular numerical ONE of Strong Authority".
Here the term YHWH and ELOHIM are "ONE" strong Authority. I read this as YHWH of ELOHIM is ONE strong authority. Note that the verses says elohim is ONE.
Is there a verse that says " elohim is el"? Not that I am aware of?
You know I cannot do Hebrew justice - but in the Greek - You just posted it
Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God
Deu 4:24 for Jehovah thy God
Deu 4:24 ὅτι κύριος ὁ θεός σου
literally - the king the God of you- the god King of you - the supreme god of you----------------------------------------------
Nu 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O "El" "singular numerical ONE of Strong Authority," the God "Elohiym" of the spirits "Holy Spirit - Ruwach" of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
Here we see "el""elohim""ruwach" written closely together. What would Gordon say of this verse arrangement? How is a reader studying Hebrew supposed to understand Hebrew, unless a Jew makes a commentary upon every verse in the tanak? This verse is difficult to fathom.
You want someone to hold your hand and write a long commentary on every verse of scripture so you can understand?
Num 16:22 καὶ ἔπεσαν ἐπὶ πρόσωπον αὐτῶν καὶ εἶπαν Θεὸς θεὸς τῶν πνευμάτων καὶ πάσης σαρκός, εἰ ἄνθρωπος εἷς ἥμαρτεν, ἐπὶ πᾶσαν τὴν συναγωγὴν ὀργὴ κυρίου;
καὶ ἔπεσαν ἐπὶ πρόσωπον αὐτῶν - and they fell upom the image THEM
καὶ εἶπαν Θεὸς θεὸς τῶν πνευμάτων - and they spoke by the breath/spirit God God
καὶ πάσης σαρκός, - of the spirits of all flesh
εἰ ἄνθρωπος εἷς ἥμαρτεν - if one man sin
ἐπὶ πᾶσαν τὴν συναγωγὴν ὀργὴ κυρίου; - the punishement/anger comes to all the congregation of the king
Θεὸς θεὸς - Greek - is not dependent upon word order
Sometimes - words are grouped together to make them stand out -
or their euphonics sound better - example - a apple - become a red apple
they spoke by the breath/spirit + God God + and the spitis of all flesh
(1) they spoke by the spirit to God + (2) God of the spitits of all flesh
They spoke through the spirit to "GOD!" of the spirits of all flesh(KJV) they ... and said, O God, - the God of the spirits
(YLT) they ... say, 'God, - God of the spirits
(TLV) they ...
cried out, “O God, God of the spirits
Note in the Greek - "O" of 'O God' is not written - but Θεὸς θεὸς - comes out as O GOD! + God of the spirits------------------------------------------
Nu 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O "El" "singular numerical ONE of Strong Authority," the God "Elohiym" of the spirits "Holy Spirit - Ruwach" of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?1- Why do you add words to the sentence - said, O "El" -
'O' is not written in the Hebrew
2- they said (through the spirit) EL + ELOHIYM =
El Elohiym I looked for Hebrew grammar - if this is a phrase - but didn't find any answer not sure where to look
3- Why do you add words to the sentence
Holy Spirit - not written in the Hebrew
of the
spirits "Holy Spirit - Ruwach" of all flesh
In the hebrew -
el = male, singular +
Ruwach = feminine, plural, absolute +
all flesh = plural
You want to mix a singlar + a plural together to make the Spitit of God (Holy Spirit)That is not what is written in the Hebrew
El = singular - stand alone ---
spirits plural belong to all flesh pluralGen 1:2 The spirit (singular) of God
How to say HOLY SPIRIT in hebrew - I only found one example Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put
his holy Spirit within him?
In Hebrew - it is translated as - the spirit that is sacredEvery other Hebrew example - "Spirit (singular) of God" -172 times within the hebrew of the OTMY POINT - Greek - they spoke THROUGH the spirit
in Greek or hebrew - God is the God of the (spirits of all flesh)I know you don't like it -because you deny the spirit - but it is what the scripture says------------------------------------
Ge 19:24 Then the LORD "Yahweh" rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD "Yahweh" out of heaven;
Here we can say there are TWO YHWH in the heavenly power. Both YHWH are in two different locations at the same time, one in heaven and one on earth. Here we have already the idea of multiple in the word meaning of elohiym. I see this verse as "Then the Jesus-Yahweh rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Father-Yahweh out of heaven"
YHWH is a title, with two divine beings in the title as the letters "hey" mean, "Behold the divine being!".
As much as I would like to agree with you saying - see God is a duality
But the truth - you are not even close - only one God
Gen 19:24 (TLV) and Adonai rained sulfur and fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah from Adonai out of the sky.
Gen 19:24 (YLT) and Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens;
Jehovah hath rained upon Sodom and Gommorah + Jehovah rained (verb implied) fire from the heavens
English example - (verb implied)
Bill painted the house + Bill the barn (in the same phrase)
Bill painted the house and Bill painted the barn
English - Bill painted the house and the barn
Either way - who - Bill / what - painted
Why is it repeated - Hebrew had no small or capital letters or punctionation
It is repeated for EMPHASES - in this sentecnce there is NO DOUBT - GOD DID IT
I cannot teach Hebrew - BUT - I have read the discussions about:
Jos 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth,
Why is the phrase repeated - error?
or to make a point loud and clear!
a liitle bit like Θεὸς θεὸς or El Elohiym
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Gordon asks what is
multiple about elohiym?
If we wish to consider elohiym as a word meaning, we have to investigate clues in the creation process by GOD. Since Gordon is a Messanic Jew, he can read from the NT torah this verse:-
Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Things we human can understand about "elohiym" are made clearly seen by the things that are made in Creation, so that nobody is without excuse.
So rather than
get bogged down in modern grammar rules imposed upon Ancient Hebrew grammar, which may or may not be the same as for modern Hebrew, we have to use Creation to aid us in understanding elohiym.
Why doesn't Gordon do this, as Romans 1:20 says to?
I am not sure what you mean - but grammar and context is absoutley important in translation
I spent a lot of time with the two verse above - grammar and context are absolutely important
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Ge 2:18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
When Adam named the animals he saw a problem, the animals had help mates with each kind, but Adam had no help mate with his human kind, so he felt lonely. Even though Adam had GOD for friend, Adam still felt lonely.
So God made Adam sleep and God built a woman, not make her or create her, but built her from pre-existing material inside Adam.
If the animals were created gender male and gender female, why make Adam wait for his help mate? God was teaching something important about " elohiym power" to the human.
When you consider a bull and a cow, what is multiple about them? Nothing. Same DNA for both, same genetic kind, identical in every way, except the personalities of love is different.
When you look at the Hebrew word for love, you find two words for love not ONE as the English translators assume there is. When you study Ahab you find this love is generally demonstrated by gender male, and Ahabuh is generally demonstrated by gender female.
The gender male carries an XY sex gene and with it the expression of Ahab love.
The gender female carries an XX sex gene and with that gene, expresses Ahabuh love.
I ask Gordon, what is multiple about the bull and the cow? They are the same Bovine kind. They are ONE being, but with two personalities of love. Nothing is multiple abour the bovine kind, each kind of animal is still of the Bovine kind, so there is nothing multlple about them.
When you look at Leviticus 18 :8
Spiritually I can agree - but you deny the spirit and only talk biology - in biology there are many differences between male and femaleLe 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
you discover in an ideal world that is sinless and perfect, both genders are considered by Hebrew as one flesh, not two as we assume today in a world of inperfection and sin. Therefore there is nothing multlple about them.
Spiritually I can agree - but you deny the spirit and only talk biology - in biology there are many differences between male and femaleGe 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
The torah says clearly the woman is the same flesh as Adam, the same bone as Adam, and that she was built from material that was Adam. We might call Eve a near clone of Adam, but she wasn't an identical clone, as her personality of love was different. That doubling of the XX sex gene makes all the difference.
Spiritually I can agree - but you deny the spirit and only talk biology - in biology there are many differences between male and femaleGe 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they (the two) shall be one flesh.
Again in a perfect sinless world, the two personalities of love become one spring of love, or one family power.
There is nothing multiple about this arrangement, it is a picture of a system,
Is a false anology - Adam is still Adam - Eve is still Eve = 2 people - ot one person
Together they can act as one - agree
where the two couples give up their independence and seek compound unity out of this union. Only is love fully completed by this union, of one providing love and one responding to that love, for a single flow of love to come out of a spring functionally.
Spiritully - what you say has a point - but Adam and Eve do not surrender their bilogies to merge into one person Typically humans mock this system, having become biased with sin and an imperfect world to label God's arrange as a pagan independent arrangement of two couples, doing what each other pleases in their own selfishness.
In our world of sin, we humans have become biased. Our bias is not supposed to change God's view of his own divine power in the word elohim.
Ge 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
This was written before Adam and Eve sinned, so what does "naked" mean? It means they had no clothes on, for they were clothed with solid colours of light, as the heavenly beings have.
Ps 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment
In our world of sin, we humans have become biased, and mock the nakedness of Adam and Eve, in movies, you would see nothing by strong bright colours over their bodies.
I read this over several times - I do not find a point here anywhere
Just a bunch of religious speach
What are you trying to say?
Yes Adam and Eve act as a married unit - unified as one - they are still two different people
What does any of this have to do with elohiym meaning a family of gods?
Adam and Eve make a family unit - they are still two different individuals!
You speak in spiritual terms - yet - deny the spirit----------
Now we need to consider
what the word "ab" means in Hebrew, we assume wrongly the term means "Father" hence Gordon might consider the Most High as a divine Father.
I thought you posted this to study the word elohiym - now we are off to another word Song 6:1 I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits "ab" of the valley,
Ge 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father "ab" and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.Here are two verses with "Ab" in them. One could always assume "AB" has multiple meanings like Father/ Fruit, but while this might be OK, it is also wrong.
One simple thing to do is make the word "AB" mean "PROVIDER" instead.
Song 6:1 I went down into the garden of nuts to see the providers of the valley,
Ge 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his Provider and his Responder , and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
If we go with these word meanings, that fit every context, the gender male and gender female personalities of love are two functions of love, provider love and responder love.
Can these kinds of love function independently? No, they can't, in a imperfect sinful world, we would term this idea as selfish love, and is an abomination to the Lord God.
In Gen 2:24 the two functions of love must "cleave" together. What does "
cleave" mean?
Job 41:23 The flakes of his flesh are joined "cleaved" together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.This is a picture of the scales on a crocodile, cleaved are the scales, as one covering of skin.
So there is nothing multiple about the crocodiles skin
, it is simply ONE covering.
Now we begin to picture "elohiym" as something arising from God's creation, so that the power of the godhead, nobody is without excuse (Rom 1:20)
When the provider love and responder love and collector love function as one, the love flows from one spring.
(1) Gordon makes this statement: "
Certainly this does not mean that YHWH made Moses into a god, but rather that he would speak to Pharaoh with authority through Aaron who would serve as his mouth-piece in the way that the prophets serve as the mouth-pieces of YHWH. In any event, there is clearly nothing multiple about Moses, even though he was made an Elohim to Pharaoh. (1) Rob makes this statement: YHWH made Moses into an elohiym power. That means Moses would be a provider with brother Aaron as another provider (as a prophet) and Miriam, Moses sister as a responder ( as a prophetess). The "family arrangement" allows for a single flow of power to move from each family member to Moses and finally to the Pharoah in Egypt.
NO - just means that Moses has supreme power over Pharoh
Just means Moses is greater than Pharoah (1)
We can assume from this "family-power" model, that the divine Most High also is a simile of this arrangement, as He is the ultimate example of love, and that love in different functions. We also see things darkly, so this picture is only a dark image of the "elohiym-power".
What faimly power model? Mose is greater than Pharoah
Of course Moses had relitaives - many - a lot more than 3 - possiblly hundreds
What does that have to do with the word elohiym?
Are you going to argue now thater are 100s of Gods in your pantheonEvery person with COVID had a cough - therefore - anyone with a cough has COVID
Is a false anology
Moses had a family and God made him greater than Pharoah so this proves elohiym is a family?
If this is your point - you are presenting a false anology===============
(2) Gordon states " So the first thing we must check about Elohim is whether it gets a plural adjective and plural verb, because this will tell us whether or not it is a numerical plural denoting multiplicity. In the very first verse of the Torah we read אָרָבּ יםִהֹלֱא meaning "Elohim (he) created". Were Elohim a numerical plural, the verse would have to say אוְּרָבּ יםִהֹלֱא" Elohim (they) created"
Consider the first verse of Genesis, with the Ancient Hebrew script over the modern Hebrew, and the reading of each letter, tells you the meaning of the verse.
The Home-Head is the divine member, ie Jesus-YHWH. strongly presses actively towards and impoortant mark. Meaning something important is about to be done.
Jesus strongs. This idea is the speaking of the words of the Provider and allowing the Responder to do what those words say, during the Creator intentions, as a single strong Authority here. (with the help of) "elohiym" or in Ancient Hebrew spelling "ALELM" " Strong Authority - Behold the Being whose active power flows".
Many even in my own denomination who are Hebrew scholars mock my humble attempt to fathom Ancient Hebrew script. Sure it does not work for all verses in the OT torah, as the Ancient Hebrew script was forgotten quickly by Israel.
My point for showing this is to show that prefix and suffix letters
are assumed to follow Modern Grammar rules for Hebrew, but this may not be the case.
What is your point - God=Christ and a dulaity created
Or God is the Creator - then a second god Christ becomes the demurigue?
=======post 1========
Now this is initial discussion, awaiting your discussion of my discussion.
DO not go off tangent, or talk about anything else except the topic and the word study as Gordon does. I will allow you to quote other Jewish quotes if you have any.
Such a word study is a pivot climate to Jewish understanding.
The word "elohiym" does not mean "god", is a terrible translation, by translators. Jeff Benner translates the word as "power" which is a better attempt. -
OKThe term for "god" is the Hebrew word "al", meaning "strong Authority" but this is not a good translation either, as "al' can refer to mountains and trees.
OKSO we are left with "elohiym", so using this term, we had better understand what the Hebrew word really means.
My Telsta plan, is costly. The last 2 days have cost me nearly 70 dollars. I need to go on a plan. Too expensive. Yesterday on my first pre paid, I used 700MB to post a reply to you.
Something is wrong with Telstra.
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I go over the 50gb usually - then it still works - just slows downTake your time reading and answering my discussion. Being a simple detailed person, I do not offer Grammar as Gordon does, I use Rom 1:20 as my way to investigate elohiym.
I am not sure what you mean - but grammar and context is absoutley important in translationWhere is your family of gods in all of this?
All I read out of this is there is ONE GOD
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I have tolerated your acting out
I have gone over every word of this post - spent a lot of time with it and you
I fail to see anything here about your Elohiym family of gods - so that must mean you have more of him to post
If you post more of this - I will look at it closely - line by lineYour turn Listen to Elain Pagels lecture -
(video) - 1hr
Elaine Pagels - What do "secret gospels" suggest about Jesus and his teaching? ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/614/paul-vrs-james?page=1&scrollTo=9437It is long - but I took many notes - and you can just fast forward to specific parts
I always include a time stamp
You always ask for scholars that agree with me - I sure agree with herThe Nag hammadi present 4 themes
1- Baptism of the Holy Spirit - spiritual Christianity as taught by Paul
These text even quote Paul many times
2- Trinity - I am the Father, The Mother, and the Son
3- a warning about organised religion
4- the archon
She will explain #1, #2, and #3 - doesn't touch # 4 the archon
How she discribs the origin of Gnostic Christianity - is perfect
How she discribes the Roma Edit - Constantine is perfect
How she describes why these text are not in the canon - is perfect
How she discribes the teaching as public and private - is absoutely perfect
Your idea - Adam and Eve are one in marriage is coverd in a way you will enjoyPlease spend time with it - if you want to continue here.
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Ill tell you right now - she does not acknowledge your satan or my archon She sees the satan as a way man describes his enemy
satan was Joshua's enemy
satan was Job's enemy
The Amorite were a satan
Rome was a satan
Egypt was a satan - Pharoah was a satan
Russia calls Ukraine satan
Ukraine calls Russia satan
To her satan is not a person or a thing -
its a negative attitude
its the voice inside telling us we can't
For her - the serpent in the garden was just Eve's conscious
I do not dissagree - yet the Beast is still the master of entropy within nature itself