Post by rob on Oct 7, 2023 18:05:46 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Time for me to go to work for another week
SO take your time in answering this post
This post took me 4 hours to write and edit
Dave" So – you deny that we are saved by GRACE
Are you making this up – or is this really an Ellen White teaching?
Rob" Really Dave, of course we are saved by grace, via faith.
I quote "Without faith, the sacrifice was just an empty ritual–in fact, it was an abomination to God"
Dave" If you stop to consider – do I need to atone (Yom Kippur)
Is not a judgment?
What force makes you think you need atonement?
ROb" You have little understanding of the sanctuary process and thus the salvation process. The SDA is unique in this regard, for all other religions have little understanding of the sanctuary in heaven, and the salvation process done to sinners. Hence many are confused.
Yom Kippur is a judgement process of sorts, yes. But when does this judgement occur? And if you read Lev 16, no prosecutor angel is required.
When a sinner wishes to begin the salvation process, his sins are not investigated by God, for God know all them already, they are immediately forgiven, and a divine pardon given in faith, and the sinner is declared righteous as if the sinner is sinless. And this is the beginning of the salvation process. The sanctuary with it's offerings and symbols unvailed the process gradually to mankind over many thousands of years because grand and awesome was the function of Jesus as our Sin-bearer and Saviour.
How would you define atonement? Verses please.
DAVE" www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/zechariah-4
Zec 3, the only vision in the Hebrew Bible in which a historical character appears, takes place in heaven, where a court is in session. The accused is the high priest Joshua and the prosecutor is the Satan (Heb. Ha-satan); a title, not yet a proper name). God rebukes the Satan: "Joshua is a brand saved out of fire" and is not to be harmed.
Court room setting - In heaven
Rob" Is this all your discussion you have, a mere passing comment made from a Jewish Virtual Library?
They assume the earlier bits of Zec 1,2 are visions, so Zec 3 must be a vision too...?
Dave" Yes – Joshua is alive
Rob" But before you said Joshua died. Flip flop?
Now you wish to add the "spirit of Joshua lives" I thought this theory of yours only comes out of the mortal bodies upon the bodies death?
Again I point out to you, Joshua is alive, functioning as a high priest.
Ezr 3:8 Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD.
The vision, assuming it was a vision, is about a real earthly high priest, representing Jesus, the reason for the vision, and how Jesus plucks firebrands for the fires of the Opposer's accusations during the salvation process.
It is true the Opposer tries to make those God saves into filfthy rags and sinning humans, but GOD does not listen to the Opposer and saves the sinner, without the need for any creature wishing to investigate the personal sin of the human seeking salvation. Nobody can oppose GOD when GOD wishs to respond to a supporter seeking His salvation.
Dave" now you deny that God can pardon you for living a life of sin
ROb" Why do you post so little and often confusing?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
The salvation process is limited by human free will, as seen here in this verse.
Dave" You whine because you are lazy - student
I direct you to Jewish thought - and you just deny it as heresy
Rob" Chabad.org has numerous Jewish stuff, but no Biblel studies to I see there. DOn't Jews make a Bible study, verse by verse, using the Science Hypothesis process?
No they just quote here and there and make up stuff, and do not quibble the traditions of men before them.
For example, is there a Jewish writer willing to explain why they mix ruwach and nephesh so easily?
Gordon Nememiah is the only Jew who wrote details about elohiym, yet he does not follow his convictions, of the 6 verses he does not like, he follows the thousands of other verses instead. He does not allow all verses to change his view of eloihiym. I got one email from him, bias over my polytheism, whatever that word means to a Jew.
Dave" explainingthebook.com/2019/01/27/zechariah-3-commentary-verses-1-5/
ROb" Nice, going through 3 visions.
Author: "Who showed Zechariah these things? It’s this communicating angel
Rob" Nice detail
Author" He’s the son of Jehozadak – and he’s the high priest during this period when Judah was trying to rebuild their temple and their walls and their nation. So, this Joshua the high priest is the third character in this vision.
ROb" Nice
Author" And any time you have a judge and a defendant you also would have a prosecutor. And that’s where our fifth and last character is introduced in this verse. And he’s identified as “Satan.” His activity is solely to “resist” or to “accuse” Joshua – true to his nature of being the “accuser of the brethren” as he’s called in the book of Revelation.
In fact, the Hebrew of verse 1 reads this way – “Satan was standing at his right hand to satan him.” The word “satan” is actually a Hebrew term – so, if you know that word, you know some Hebrew! And the meaning of that word is “adversary” or “accuser.” So, Satan was there to satan Joshua. The Accuser was there to accuse Joshua.
ROb" Nice recognition of Hebrew noun and verb.
"And any time you have a judge and a defendant you also would have a prosecutor. " False, an assumption.
How is this vision about a court room scene? It's not.
It's about a high priest scene, ie sanctuary process / salvation process.
Yes the Opposer is trying to oppose the salvation process.
This is NOT the same as a formal court room scene on earth, with judges and lawyers and the like.
Author" And there’s no human courtroom involved here. This is a heavenly visionary court
ROb" Prove to me this is a court room scene.
You can't. It's a sanctuary in heaven, just as the one on earth is going to be rebuilt.
Author" And amazingly, we discover in verse 2 that the Judge – the angel of the Lord – in my estimation, a manifestation of Jesus Christ – he steps into the role of defense attorney for Joshua.
ROb" Yes is a judge and defense attorney, maybe as well as prosecutor too, assuming this is a court room which it isn't.
In the holy of holies, sinning is atoned for using the high priest presenting confessed sins unto the Father. It is here an accuser is stopping this salvation process from happening, because the Opposer does not want sinning humans saved. The Opposer is opposing God's function to save humans from sin. God nothing to do with a court room or a judgement.
Author" And we understood there that this is a reference to a reality that we know happened in the New Testament – that God the Father sent God the Son. And when that happened and when it will yet happen again in the future when Jesus returns – it can truly be said that the Lord of Hosts sent the Lord of Hosts.
Rob" Is this supporting your view of the expression idea of a single strong authority? No indeed.
Author" But why the rebuke?
Because Satan is accusing the God-ordained head of Israel’s religious system at the time – the high priest, Joshua.
ROb" correct
Author" But God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. And so, he claims that he does that very thing concerning Israel’s religious system in this vision.
ROb" Yes but this is not some heavenly court scene
Auhtor" Now, remember that this is a courtroom scene. And when people go to court even in these days, most try to look their best.
But here we have Joshua and he’s not in nice-looking clothes. No – his clothing is filthy.
ROb" wrong / assumption.
Auhtor" The priests had defiled both themselves personally and their office. They had led the nation in worshipping idols and turning their backs on the Lord.
ROb" Hmm? no mention of SIN, filfthy clothing means the flesh is defiled by sin.
Auhtor" I think that between what we know of these beings in this verse and what we’ll see later, these who are standing before the angel of the Lord are probably angels. Angels, according to the book of Hebrews are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to them that shall be heirs of salvation. They serve. They do God’s will. And right here in Zechariah’s vision, God’s will is to remove the dirty clothing from Joshua the high priest
ROb" Hmm?
Auhtor" No, but rather I think that this act – which I would describe as symbolic – indicates once more what we’ve seen that God is doing here. He’s cleansing Israel’s religious system.
ROb" Is that it?
Not a single mention about removing the SIN from Joshua and the flesh begins a cleansing process from sins also, the aven propensities of sin.
Author" So, the angel of the Lord in this verse is claiming the right to forgive sins – Joshua’s sins in particular. And we’re left to ask ourselves – along with the religious leaders of Jesus’ day – “Who can forgive sin but God alone?!”
And yet, the angel of the Lord is forgiving Joshua’s sin. The conclusion I reach is that this angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ himself in this passage. God the Son is forgiving sins here.
ROb" correct
Author" So, the literal meaning behind the symbolic act of removing Joshua’s filthy clothing is that Jesus has forgiven the sin of this man.
ROb" FInally
Auhtor" Positively, sinners need a change of clothes – as it were. There is a taking off – but there is also replacing what has been taken off and then “putting on.”
ROb" Hmm?
Auhtor" Now, in Exodus 28:4 Moses is commanded to make the following clothing for the high priest: “a breastpiece,an ephod,a robe, a fittedtunic, a turban, and a sash.”
ROb" PUT ON functions for others to receive Jesus.
Author" And it’s at this point where I wonder if this passage is teaching us something about prayer. Why do I say that? Well, can you believe that a man can give a command – and heavenly helpers just swing into action?
Rob" Hmm?
Author" So, the angel of the Lord – who is the Judge and the Defense and, really, the Jury in this vision – whom we know to be the Lord Jesus Christ – he approves of this restoration of the religious leadership and system of his people.
ROb" Jesus is also your Saviour, and does not need any creature investigating the personal sins of the human wishing to be saved by Jesus. So this court room thing is just invented by humans who fail to understand the salvation process.
Rob" Question: Was this study written by a Jew?
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Dave" The vision opens with Satan, the angelic adversary, before the Lord in the Temple Courts15 standing ready to condemn Joshua, the High Priest, because of the filthiness16 of His clothing.
ROb" Where does the passage / vision refer to a court room scene?
A High priest never goes into a court room scene, the holy of holies is not a court room scene.
Dave" Mr Serious – why do you misrepresent others
Quote me saying that Hebrew satan is a prosecutor in the story of Job
ROb" Oh sorry, so if the STN is an opposer of JOb, not functioning as some prosecutor, what function does the Opposer function as, in JOB?
JOB is also about a sanctuary salvation process, and the princes of each world is allowed to come to meetings from their various kingdoms. The Opposer also comes.
Not to prosecutor humans of their sin, but to accuse humans of sinning,
"It's not fair, you save Job, but Job is not right with you"
The Opposer is opposing the salvation system, the right of GOD to reach down and save humans from sinning because they wish to be saved. But you don't get that.
Dave" You just invent stuff – so you can ague with yourself
Rob" Really Dave. Try writing more so I can write less, and understand you better.
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Previous posts
Dave" he opposes you for being a sinner
ROb" What a joke ! So an angel opposes the human because he is sinning? How does an angel even know the human is sinning? Sin begins in the mind, where no actions have NOT begun as yet.
Dave" Correct
ROb "Mocking aside, are you agreeing with me, that angels cannot read sins inside the human mind, so really cannot function as a creature investigating sins at all, only the sins that have actions?
And salvation is between your Saviour and you, why do you need some other entity?
No judgement, no investigation, just GOD reaches down and saves you because you ask. Do you agree with this?
In my view, Dave, angels are limited in abilities, only GOD is almighty.
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Did GOD really design the world to bring sin into the world intentionally? Is this your view? I hope not.
Does God really test sinless people. Does free will really need trying? Why do you wish for cherubims NOT to have free will? How can they love GOD? Why do you make such a weird arrangement as this?
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Dave" NOPE – perfectly on topic
Why does God test His chosen
Answer – to seek the truly faithful – the Prodigal Son
ROb" to seek the faithful? What is faith Dave?
Its a person asking for a power flow from God daily every day, forever and ever, even when we are sinless.
Why do you introduce the idea that a power flow can flow fakely from God, or be requested fakely from the asker?
fakely ( I word spelling I invent)
if the laws of faith are written in your heart, there is no need to test the power flow, it's already there and alive.
Dave" Why does God test His chosen
To separate the wheat form the chaff
ROb" YOu are saying what I am saying, the testing is about sorting out the free will to truly choose. Many of us use our free will as lukewarm, we switch our free wills on and off, daily, second by second, on again, off again. So God tests our free will. Do you wish to hop over to me or not.
Dave" Why can't God just forgive, and welcome them back freely,
Every Christian believes this to be true – why don’t you?
ROb" But Jesus had to die for our sins? Why? ANd come clad in a human body as well. WHy?
More to it than just forgiving the free will.
You neglect the Mischief maker did mischief to our bodies.
You suppose GOD created our bodies with mischief, ie ra in it purposefully. This idea is bogus. Our bodies came with mischief from a mischief maker when Adam and Eve sinned.
Rob PP" but the salvation process is much more complex than this.
Dave" NOPE – SIMPLE - believe in your heart and confess (Jer 1:5)
ROb" NO Dave, simple for humans yes, but not simple for GOD
1) He had to pay life for life for mischief
2) He has to offer His body for our body, ie remove mischief
3) He had to make retribution for all eternity, a very costly sacrifice for human sin
4) Only than could the human be fully restored as before
Dave" The cycle of Life – birth – grow to maturity – death (blood) = new life
ROb" NO Dave, you fail to understand the meaning of blood
even Deut 32 has poetry in it "blood grapes"
A literal meaning like you want makes no sense.
Living only comes from GOD, it's not a cycle. It's eternal based on faith, every going out from the Lord.
Dave" Written in nature for all to see
ROb "so natural decomposition is a part of GOD absolute design? No. God is living and plucking the flower from the tree in heaven still lives because God is living and all the process in the next renewed earth are living.
Only the Opposer opposes the God of living, bringing our separation from God, ie death.
Proof the Opposer opposes GOD directly.
Rob PP "A mischief maker made permanent changes of mischief to Eve as soon as she sinned,
Dave" Correct – you teach that your satan god is the second creator
ROb" since when is spoiling the DNA, also creating the DNA? Come one Dave, get real.
There is a whole religion on spoiling the DNA, it's called evolution. Evolution is never about creating. Never.
Dave" The penalty for this was life for life. ie: blood.
Just a moment ago – you said you didn’t understand this
Rob" How many religions out there understand why Jesus died in a human body with blood in it as a symbol of something greater?
None. Not even the SDA, but I did glean something from Ellen WHite about why Jesus died, written in the law.
But she does not explain. Because of our stiff necks cannot read Scripture that well and we too are biased with traditions of men. Much like Israel of old. Anf even of all the doctrine pillars we detailthe SDA does not define and detail the pillar of faith, it is left undefined and undiscussed. Why is that? I don't know. The most important pillar of salvation is totally undiscussed.
So I asked God why did Jesus have to die in a human body as elohiym power of divinity? And the only judgement in the moral law, is for mischief, life for life.
Nothing else mentioned in the applications of moral law.
Dave" More of Robert’s consistency
and why this conversation goes nowhere Mr Flip Flop
ROb" Dave I write and write, YOu don;t much.
If you wrote more, I would understand you better.
Dave" Grace (God's kindness) overlooks the sins of the sinner and saves them as sinless.
Just a moment ago you said
“the Old Testament believers were saved by grace (God’s unearned favour) - Summary: the answer is NO.”
Which is it Robert?
ROb" Typical confusion Dave. I did not say these things like this?
Humans are saved by faith in the gracious kindness of Jesus willing to save humans from sinning, and this process does not involve some angel investigating the personal seen and unseen sins of the sinner, NO.
The process is just between you and your Saviour, and He saves you regardless of how little or how much sinning you did, you are saved by His grace, and by your faith, that allows Jesus to reach you and commune to you, with his grace. Faith is a communication tool, an active function in which you ask to receive. Jesus than responds.
Faith is not some mental assent, where you "daath". Faith is an action process where you "yada". These two hebrew words can be translated as "to know", but they are different than knowing.
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ROb PP" Why does the Opposer oppose humans than Dave?
D" Because he was created to devour / consume
R" NO, the Opposer is a sinning power, elohiym power that promotes TOV and RA
The other elohiym power promotes TOV.
There is a difference when free will is exercised.
RA is a spoiling , a dysfunction aspect. A fruit from missing GOD functioning in your life.
When you exercise free will to dsyfunction, your functional flow of God's power is broken.
GOD would never create a creature with spoiling, devouring and as an agent of RA. Terrible thing to consider. You are wrong to consider this idea.
Because you deny Ezekiel 28, you never understand why the Opposer opposes in the first place.
D" Because this is world is the kingdom of the BEAST – yet God gave man dominion it
Because that is how God made him/them
R" COnfused. When Adam sinned a court room declaration was announced in heaven.
Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation,
Two words here about court room scene
"judgement and condemnation"
When Adam sinned, he lost his crown as prince of earth and the crown moved to the Opposer, who is now prince of earth. Or was, until Jesus did and took back the crown, so the Opposer lost his crown and Jesus is prince of the earth, and can have whomever He wishes to live forver on his earth and in his kingdom. The subjects are those who wish to be freed from prison. The mind can choose Jesus, but the body is condemned by mischief. so Jesus has to atone for both mind and body.
D" Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
By Him for Him
R" SO SIN was inevitable as a consequence of this agent of RA doing bad things to human? Wrong.
Why the temptation of Eve than, if the agent of RA was already in the Eden garden and outside the garden with coal forming from natural death (and already in Eve's body - yester ra) . Really Dave.
When you have elohiym powers, you have a tree with fruit, and is a symbol of that power. There were TWO such trees in the middle Eden, showing TWO elohiym powers were already there. But you reject that idea.
The RA was never already there in Eve as yester ra, it was placed in a different tree outside of Eve, but inside the garden home as a choice for free will.
God did not create SIN, or the Opposer's SIN.
The free will is allowed to exercise without God control. But when the free will is chosen to do, GOD has to create the RA from the free will, because such RA normally does not exist under GOD, EVER, God is always TOV.
And the only way to allow SIN to exist, God has to move away, so a MEDIUM is established for this purpose. Medium carry powers passively and thus GOD can put up with SIN for a probation time, to allow free will to show itself. But you don't understad the Opposer has free will.
D" Rev 4:11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, For You created all things, and because of Your will they existed and were created!”
R" Yes the cherubims were created with free will.
But one exercised free will to sin. A verse you deny to read.
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Dave" NO – do the archon "CARE" if you sin – who knows?
ROb" OH so the Opposer did not care about Job being declared TOM? sinless before GOD?
Really Dave, try again to discuss my discussion?
Of course the Opposer cares about sin, humans that sin is his only ticket for allowing his kingdom to continue.
The Opposer wanted to make Jesus break faith, but couldn't, so his kingdom is doomed.
Dave" For one moment – the WORLD took his attention off of obedience to God
Did your satan force Moses to sin?
No – it was the consistent NOISE coming from the people – the world
ROb" correct, the Opposer cannot force, nor does GOD. Because GOD does not allow force.
If God removes his control, than the Opposer will use force, and this force is coming soon, once the great reset happens and the world supports the worship of the day of the Sun, the God of RA, the symbol of the Opposer, the elohiym power of RA.
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Previous posts
Dave" The only way for man to enter heaven is with the Divine Pardon
ROb" Does this happen while alive, or after you die?
Dave" Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment,
Why do you deny the NT?
ROb" God pardons you when you are alive, and ask, ye receive. Your name is written in the Lamb's book of life, there is no judgement, no investigation of your past sins, you are hidden in your Saviour and Him alone.
Heb 9:27 is written for the unsupporter, the one who does not ask for salvation, after he dies, he faces judgement and punishment for his sins.
Not all humans are judged with sinnings done Dave, the righteous are saved by Jesus and the Day of Atonment on YOM Kippur, the sins are finally buried and some from the Opposer transferred unto him. See Lev 16
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PP" After all, it was the Serpent that called God a liar
Dave" God said if you eat of it you will die – guaranteed – is this true?
The serpent said – if you eat of it – it is NOT guaranteed that you will die without any hope of redemption
Who told Eve the truth?
God said the truth – just not the whole truth
and the serpent told the truth
It was a deception
ROb" You are opposing the authors words
"After all, it was the Serpent that called God a liar"
I agree, the serpent lied.
Dave" He promotes confusion, by quoting confusion from other sources.
He is an academic working on his PhD
ROb" exactly. Not a bible study even.
A collection of human studies.
Dave" He is an academic looking at the material without bias
ROb" bias? really? A nonbeliever comes with bias? You cannot read the torah unless you are a believer, otherwise you read with bias?
RobPP" Question: Does the Shad, or dragon, link to a saraph being?
Dave" No – the shedim are not heavenly seraphim angels
ROb" Want me to prove this to you?
De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils "SHAD", not to God; to gods "ELOIHYM" whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not
De 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,
SHAD blood is the vine of Sodom, depravity and sinning.
De 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons,
Hence SHAD = tanniyn. "dragon"
Ex 7:9 God uses this power before Pharoah, but His power eats up Pharoah power, because GOD is stronger than the false elohiym power. Ex 7:12
Ps 44:19 tanniyn is associated with shadow of death'
Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day <yowm> the LORD <Y@hovah> with his sore <qasheh> and great <gadowl> and strong <chazaq> sword <chereb> shall punish <paqad>
leviathan <livyathan> (general term)
(1) the piercing <bariyach> serpent <nachash>,
(2) ..that crooked <`aqallathown> serpent <nachash>;
(3) and he shall slay <harag> the dragon <tanniyn>
The powers of false elohiym come in three forms, as listed here.
Nachash is one of those powers
Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent <nachash> was <hayah> more subtil <`aruwm>
Nu 21:6 And the LORD <Y@hovah> sent <shalach> fiery <saraph> serpents <nachash> among the people
When Israel sinned, God allows the opposing elohiym power to come and empower Israel to sin more, and many die, a power from the false elohiym power, separating Israel from GOD, so the people die.
Saraph, is a function that means to burn.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims "saraph": each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Clearly the saraph are cherubim creatures or angels that surround GOD and His throne with free will to love Him freely.
Notice so hidden the poetry similes are, so no false scribe would intentionally remove the holy messages of GOD and thus the truth is preserved in the torah.
No need for Ezekiel 28, but it adds support to the verses I show.
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Dave" So you claim Ellen White and her teaching is superior to Martin Luther
ROb" Light is light, is a flood light more superior and a candle light? Light is light, why is more light better than less light? Your reasoning is flawed.
Dave" If satan did it 1 Chr 21:1 - you say it is a sin - or contradict yourself
If God did it 2 Sam 24:1 - you must contradict yourself - or call God a sinner
But accuse me of teaching confusion
ROb" Point taken.
I see David wanting to sin and number Israel armies, and so God allows the sin to grow, inviting a change over David's mind from God to the Opposer.
This switching process is common. In 1 Kings 22 we see the same idea, a lying medium is called to help the king sin some more.
If the stiff necks want to fight over humans and kill them, God allows their own human strength to achieve this, but is this really God's will for His saved? Or God bowing down to their powers of Self. God does not force Himself upon free will. What you are seeing the the strange act of GOD and the love of God for respect to human free will.
Does not the torah offer clues to how the weeds of the land were going to be removed?
Ex 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
No mention of humans cutting them off
Ex 23:27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come,
No mention of humans destroying the inhabitants
Ex 23:28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.
Did things happen this way as God said? No
Why not?
Dave" When the angel of Death took the lives of all the first born
You teach God forced this angel to commit sin
ROb" DId not God offer Egypt time to seek salvation thus God did not "ratsach" / wound Egypt. After that failed to respond, (many Egyptians did though and painted blood over thier door posts), is not GOD allowed to "hareg" them? Remove God's power of living from them?
Dave" I pity such mockery. All money collected is to help the poor, not the rich.
ROb" I agree
Dave" The base salary for Pastor in companies like Seventh Day Adventist range from $87,473 to $120,625 with the average base salary of $106,435.
ROb" I am disgusted to here this Dave, they shoudl get the same as me, 54,000 , only 28 dollars an hour.
Dave" The Seventh-Day Adventist Church Salary for President is estimated to be approximately $726447 per year
ROb" I am disgusted. NO wonder we get the wrong presidents.
Dave" Yep – and the SDA are no exception
Tell me again how - All money collected is to help the poor, not the rich.
ROB" I agree, disgusting.
RObPP" Eze 34:3 Ye eat the fat, ...but ye feed not the flock.
Selfish pastors....
Dave" Yep – that is exactly what I said
ROb Ditto
Dave" Now you contradict yourself
The SDA church is the 4th richest church in the WORLD..
Jan 12, 2023 — Half of surveyed Adventist pastors anticipated retiring as millionaires and the average was 1.5 million. * Anticipated net worth varied ..
I am disgusted, they should get 50,000 per year, just above the minium wage, and really less than that. Maybe they should get nothing and work for their own living, do the work as a hobby, not as a career?
Dave" Tell me again how – Ellen White and the SDA are different
ROb" Dave , six years when the SDA was formed in 1863, Mr White said to Mrs White, "come on Ellen, we are not wanted here", in reference to the General conference wanting to function without a prophets help.
So the rest of her life God's messages flowed through her to a backsliding stiff necked church.
Does not make the assembly not of GOD, but it shows how easily side tracked the Opposer can take those who do not support God, but support self.
Dave" Tell me again how – Ellen White and the SDA are different
ROb" The messages from GOD are true, the people who walked in self establishing buldings , etc living like fat man, are false.
DO you think the Opposer would want a true loving people of GOD on earth?
How long did Israel last? 40 days after the Exodus. The Opposer opposed God within 40 days.
The Opposer opposed the SDA within 6 years.
Same idea, the Opposer does not want humans to be saved and less, a whole assembly supporting God. This is why the pillar about faith is missing from the SDA church.
Dave" You are not academic – because you refuse to look at the facts without your bias
Rob" Dave I do not attend my local SDA church currently because of elders who rejects me and my unwelcome presence. Many of the assemblies are backsliden in terrible sins. I do not support them with my tithes anymore, yet I consider the SDA as present truth for me in the last days of time. The fact that people fail does not make truth they claim to follow fail. Truth is truth and never fails. The sola scriptoria is supreme, and does not need people to make it true.
How many true supporters entered the promised land? Only 2 out of 3 million Israel walkers.
Dave" Ellen White teaches you that you are without sin
ROb" WHy the mock. Ellen never teaches the saved are without sin? QUote her writings if you can. Stop making up stuff.
Dave" Your SDA church is a money laundry
ROb" Wrong. Just because corruption existed in the Jews in Jesus time did not stop Jesus from going to the corrupt church and as his custom from reading their and paying tithe to the corrupt church.
Dave" EXACTLY WHY – I do not claim allegiance with any of it
ROb" so what assembly do you attend than Dave?
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
We are to attend our assemblies... not forsake them...
My forsaken the assemblies is temporary for now...
Heb 10:25 ...so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
When are to assembly more when the end of time approaches... not less.
Dave" I am none of those – because they all come with CORPORATE baggage
ROb" the torah say to not to forsake the assmebly.
Dave" Passover begins on the night of a full moon after the northern vernal equinox.
Rob" Correct Ellen WHite explained Jesus was in Gethsemane on a full moon.
Your assumptions of her are false.
Dave" Rush Sharf – was a missionary pastor in our area – filled in for our pastor sometimes – he worked for “Prison Ministries” and services the prison.
Once a year we dedicated a Sunday to him – to tell us of his ministry and to ask for support – because he collects NO PAY CHECK
ROb" wow, corruption from your Pastor and n pay check from a real supporter of GOD.
Dave" So do NOT give me any crap about the SDA being any different – or even special – just another man-made cult – following an individual person instead of the Word of God - I HOPE I HAVE MADE MYSELF CLEAR!
ROb" WHo said anything about being a SDA? I follow the torah and the torah how ir reads? In the end of time the remnant is left. Who are these? Not from any particular church, but those who follow torah.
Dave" Belonging to a club is NOT the same as the CHURCH
and no on has the authority to rewrite scripture - not even Ellen White
Rob" True, Ellen White did not rewrite Scripture. Proof that she did? Many go to church as a club. True.
Does that mean we should not go? No
It means we should be God's witness regardless.
Your topic is off the thread. Truth is truth, go nothing to do with people who are corrupt.
DO you have a better assembly for the end of time?
Take your time with the thread on an Opposer opposing God.
Back to work...
Shalom
Time for me to go to work for another week
SO take your time in answering this post
This post took me 4 hours to write and edit
Dave" So – you deny that we are saved by GRACE
Are you making this up – or is this really an Ellen White teaching?
Rob" Really Dave, of course we are saved by grace, via faith.
I quote "Without faith, the sacrifice was just an empty ritual–in fact, it was an abomination to God"
Dave" If you stop to consider – do I need to atone (Yom Kippur)
Is not a judgment?
What force makes you think you need atonement?
ROb" You have little understanding of the sanctuary process and thus the salvation process. The SDA is unique in this regard, for all other religions have little understanding of the sanctuary in heaven, and the salvation process done to sinners. Hence many are confused.
Yom Kippur is a judgement process of sorts, yes. But when does this judgement occur? And if you read Lev 16, no prosecutor angel is required.
When a sinner wishes to begin the salvation process, his sins are not investigated by God, for God know all them already, they are immediately forgiven, and a divine pardon given in faith, and the sinner is declared righteous as if the sinner is sinless. And this is the beginning of the salvation process. The sanctuary with it's offerings and symbols unvailed the process gradually to mankind over many thousands of years because grand and awesome was the function of Jesus as our Sin-bearer and Saviour.
How would you define atonement? Verses please.
DAVE" www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/zechariah-4
Zec 3, the only vision in the Hebrew Bible in which a historical character appears, takes place in heaven, where a court is in session. The accused is the high priest Joshua and the prosecutor is the Satan (Heb. Ha-satan); a title, not yet a proper name). God rebukes the Satan: "Joshua is a brand saved out of fire" and is not to be harmed.
Court room setting - In heaven
Rob" Is this all your discussion you have, a mere passing comment made from a Jewish Virtual Library?
They assume the earlier bits of Zec 1,2 are visions, so Zec 3 must be a vision too...?
Dave" Yes – Joshua is alive
Rob" But before you said Joshua died. Flip flop?
Now you wish to add the "spirit of Joshua lives" I thought this theory of yours only comes out of the mortal bodies upon the bodies death?
Again I point out to you, Joshua is alive, functioning as a high priest.
Ezr 3:8 Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD.
The vision, assuming it was a vision, is about a real earthly high priest, representing Jesus, the reason for the vision, and how Jesus plucks firebrands for the fires of the Opposer's accusations during the salvation process.
It is true the Opposer tries to make those God saves into filfthy rags and sinning humans, but GOD does not listen to the Opposer and saves the sinner, without the need for any creature wishing to investigate the personal sin of the human seeking salvation. Nobody can oppose GOD when GOD wishs to respond to a supporter seeking His salvation.
Dave" now you deny that God can pardon you for living a life of sin
ROb" Why do you post so little and often confusing?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
The salvation process is limited by human free will, as seen here in this verse.
Dave" You whine because you are lazy - student
I direct you to Jewish thought - and you just deny it as heresy
Rob" Chabad.org has numerous Jewish stuff, but no Biblel studies to I see there. DOn't Jews make a Bible study, verse by verse, using the Science Hypothesis process?
No they just quote here and there and make up stuff, and do not quibble the traditions of men before them.
For example, is there a Jewish writer willing to explain why they mix ruwach and nephesh so easily?
Gordon Nememiah is the only Jew who wrote details about elohiym, yet he does not follow his convictions, of the 6 verses he does not like, he follows the thousands of other verses instead. He does not allow all verses to change his view of eloihiym. I got one email from him, bias over my polytheism, whatever that word means to a Jew.
Dave" explainingthebook.com/2019/01/27/zechariah-3-commentary-verses-1-5/
ROb" Nice, going through 3 visions.
Author: "Who showed Zechariah these things? It’s this communicating angel
Rob" Nice detail
Author" He’s the son of Jehozadak – and he’s the high priest during this period when Judah was trying to rebuild their temple and their walls and their nation. So, this Joshua the high priest is the third character in this vision.
ROb" Nice
Author" And any time you have a judge and a defendant you also would have a prosecutor. And that’s where our fifth and last character is introduced in this verse. And he’s identified as “Satan.” His activity is solely to “resist” or to “accuse” Joshua – true to his nature of being the “accuser of the brethren” as he’s called in the book of Revelation.
In fact, the Hebrew of verse 1 reads this way – “Satan was standing at his right hand to satan him.” The word “satan” is actually a Hebrew term – so, if you know that word, you know some Hebrew! And the meaning of that word is “adversary” or “accuser.” So, Satan was there to satan Joshua. The Accuser was there to accuse Joshua.
ROb" Nice recognition of Hebrew noun and verb.
"And any time you have a judge and a defendant you also would have a prosecutor. " False, an assumption.
How is this vision about a court room scene? It's not.
It's about a high priest scene, ie sanctuary process / salvation process.
Yes the Opposer is trying to oppose the salvation process.
This is NOT the same as a formal court room scene on earth, with judges and lawyers and the like.
Author" And there’s no human courtroom involved here. This is a heavenly visionary court
ROb" Prove to me this is a court room scene.
You can't. It's a sanctuary in heaven, just as the one on earth is going to be rebuilt.
Author" And amazingly, we discover in verse 2 that the Judge – the angel of the Lord – in my estimation, a manifestation of Jesus Christ – he steps into the role of defense attorney for Joshua.
ROb" Yes is a judge and defense attorney, maybe as well as prosecutor too, assuming this is a court room which it isn't.
In the holy of holies, sinning is atoned for using the high priest presenting confessed sins unto the Father. It is here an accuser is stopping this salvation process from happening, because the Opposer does not want sinning humans saved. The Opposer is opposing God's function to save humans from sin. God nothing to do with a court room or a judgement.
Author" And we understood there that this is a reference to a reality that we know happened in the New Testament – that God the Father sent God the Son. And when that happened and when it will yet happen again in the future when Jesus returns – it can truly be said that the Lord of Hosts sent the Lord of Hosts.
Rob" Is this supporting your view of the expression idea of a single strong authority? No indeed.
Author" But why the rebuke?
Because Satan is accusing the God-ordained head of Israel’s religious system at the time – the high priest, Joshua.
ROb" correct
Author" But God is in the business of snatching people from the fire. And so, he claims that he does that very thing concerning Israel’s religious system in this vision.
ROb" Yes
but this is not some heavenly court sceneAuhtor" Now, remember that this is a courtroom scene. And when people go to court even in these days, most try to look their best.
But here we have Joshua and he’s not in nice-looking clothes. No – his clothing is filthy.
ROb" wrong / assumption.
Auhtor" The priests had defiled both themselves personally and their office. They had led the nation in worshipping idols and turning their backs on the Lord.
ROb" Hmm? no mention of SIN, filfthy clothing means the flesh is defiled by sin.
Auhtor" I think that between what we know of these beings in this verse and what we’ll see later, these who are standing before the angel of the Lord are probably angels. Angels, according to the book of Hebrews are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to them that shall be heirs of salvation. They serve. They do God’s will. And right here in Zechariah’s vision, God’s will is to remove the dirty clothing from Joshua the high priest
ROb" Hmm?
Auhtor" No, but rather I think that this act – which I would describe as symbolic – indicates once more what we’ve seen that God is doing here. He’s cleansing Israel’s religious system.
ROb" Is that it?
Not a single mention about removing the SIN from Joshua and the flesh begins a cleansing process from sins also, the aven propensities of sin.
Author" So, the angel of the Lord in this verse is claiming the right to forgive sins – Joshua’s sins in particular. And we’re left to ask ourselves – along with the religious leaders of Jesus’ day – “Who can forgive sin but God alone?!”
And yet, the angel of the Lord is forgiving Joshua’s sin. The conclusion I reach is that this angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ himself in this passage. God the Son is forgiving sins here.
ROb" correct
Author" So, the literal meaning behind the symbolic act of removing Joshua’s filthy clothing is that Jesus has forgiven the sin of this man.
ROb" FInally
Auhtor" Positively, sinners need a change of clothes – as it were. There is a taking off – but there is also replacing what has been taken off and then “putting on.”
ROb" Hmm?
Auhtor" Now, in Exodus 28:4 Moses is commanded to make the following clothing for the high priest: “a breastpiece,an ephod,a robe, a fittedtunic, a turban, and a sash.”
ROb" PUT ON functions for others to receive Jesus.
Author" And it’s at this point where I wonder if this passage is teaching us something about prayer. Why do I say that? Well, can you believe that a man can give a command – and heavenly helpers just swing into action?
Rob" Hmm?
Author" So, the angel of the Lord – who is the Judge and the Defense and, really, the Jury in this vision – whom we know to be the Lord Jesus Christ – he approves of this restoration of the religious leadership and system of his people.
ROb" Jesus is also your Saviour, and does not need any creature investigating the personal sins of the human wishing to be saved by Jesus. So this court room thing is just invented by humans who fail to understand the salvation process.
Rob" Question: Was this study written by a Jew?
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Dave" The vision opens with Satan, the angelic adversary, before the Lord in the Temple Courts15 standing ready to condemn Joshua, the High Priest, because of the filthiness16 of His clothing.
ROb" Where does the passage / vision refer to a court room scene?
A High priest never goes into a court room scene, the holy of holies is not a court room scene.
Dave" Mr Serious – why do you misrepresent others
Quote me saying that Hebrew satan is a prosecutor in the story of Job
ROb" Oh sorry, so if the STN is an opposer of JOb, not functioning as some prosecutor, what function does the Opposer function as, in JOB?
JOB is also about a sanctuary salvation process, and the princes of each world is allowed to come to meetings from their various kingdoms. The Opposer also comes.
Not to prosecutor humans of their sin, but to accuse humans of sinning,
"It's not fair, you save Job, but Job is not right with you"
The Opposer is opposing the salvation system, the right of GOD to reach down and save humans from sinning because they wish to be saved. But you don't get that.
Dave" You just invent stuff – so you can ague with yourself
Rob" Really Dave. Try writing more so I can write less, and understand you better.
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Previous posts
Dave" he opposes you for being a sinner
ROb" What a joke ! So an angel opposes the human because he is sinning? How does an angel even know the human is sinning? Sin begins in the mind, where no actions have NOT begun as yet.
Dave" Correct
ROb "Mocking aside, are you agreeing with me, that angels cannot read sins inside the human mind, so really cannot function as a creature investigating sins at all, only the sins that have actions?
And salvation is between your Saviour and you, why do you need some other entity?
No judgement, no investigation, just GOD reaches down and saves you because you ask. Do you agree with this?
In my view, Dave, angels are limited in abilities, only GOD is almighty.
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Did GOD really design the world to bring sin into the world intentionally? Is this your view? I hope not.
Does God really test sinless people. Does free will really need trying? Why do you wish for cherubims NOT to have free will? How can they love GOD? Why do you make such a weird arrangement as this?
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Dave" NOPE – perfectly on topic
Why does God test His chosen
Answer – to seek the truly faithful – the Prodigal Son
ROb" to seek the faithful? What is faith Dave?
Its a person asking for a power flow from God daily every day, forever and ever, even when we are sinless.
Why do you introduce the idea that a power flow can flow fakely from God, or be requested fakely from the asker?
fakely ( I word spelling I invent)
if the laws of faith are written in your heart, there is no need to test the power flow, it's already there and alive.
Dave" Why does God test His chosen
To separate the wheat form the chaff
ROb" YOu are saying what I am saying, the testing is about sorting out the free will to truly choose. Many of us use our free will as lukewarm, we switch our free wills on and off, daily, second by second, on again, off again. So God tests our free will. Do you wish to hop over to me or not.
Dave" Why can't God just forgive, and welcome them back freely,
Every Christian believes this to be true – why don’t you?
ROb" But Jesus had to die for our sins? Why? ANd come clad in a human body as well. WHy?
More to it than just forgiving the free will.
You neglect the Mischief maker did mischief to our bodies.
You suppose GOD created our bodies with mischief, ie ra in it purposefully. This idea is bogus. Our bodies came with mischief from a mischief maker when Adam and Eve sinned.
Rob PP" but the salvation process is much more complex than this.
Dave" NOPE – SIMPLE - believe in your heart and confess (Jer 1:5)
ROb" NO Dave, simple for humans yes, but not simple for GOD
1) He had to pay life for life for mischief
2) He has to offer His body for our body, ie remove mischief
3) He had to make retribution for all eternity, a very costly sacrifice for human sin
4) Only than could the human be fully restored as before
Dave" The cycle of Life – birth – grow to maturity – death (blood) = new life
ROb" NO Dave, you fail to understand the meaning of blood
even Deut 32 has poetry in it "blood grapes"
A literal meaning like you want makes no sense.
Living only comes from GOD, it's not a cycle. It's eternal based on faith, every going out from the Lord.
Dave" Written in nature for all to see
ROb "so natural decomposition is a part of GOD absolute design? No. God is living and plucking the flower from the tree in heaven still lives because God is living and all the process in the next renewed earth are living.
Only the Opposer opposes the God of living, bringing our separation from God, ie death.
Proof the Opposer opposes GOD directly.
Rob PP "A mischief maker made permanent changes of mischief to Eve as soon as she sinned,
Dave" Correct – you teach that your satan god is the second creator
ROb" since when is spoiling the DNA, also creating the DNA? Come one Dave, get real.
There is a whole religion on spoiling the DNA, it's called evolution. Evolution is never about creating. Never.
Dave" The penalty for this was life for life. ie: blood.
Just a moment ago – you said you didn’t understand this
Rob" How many religions out there understand why Jesus died in a human body with blood in it as a symbol of something greater?
None. Not even the SDA, but I did glean something from Ellen WHite about why Jesus died, written in the law.
But she does not explain. Because of our stiff necks cannot read Scripture that well and we too are biased with traditions of men. Much like Israel of old. Anf even of all the doctrine pillars we detailthe SDA does not define and detail the pillar of faith, it is left undefined and undiscussed. Why is that? I don't know. The most important pillar of salvation is totally undiscussed.
So I asked God why did Jesus have to die in a human body as elohiym power of divinity? And the only judgement in the moral law, is for mischief, life for life.
Nothing else mentioned in the applications of moral law.
Dave" More of Robert’s consistency
and why this conversation goes nowhere Mr Flip Flop
ROb" Dave I write and write, YOu don;t much.
If you wrote more, I would understand you better.
Dave" Grace (God's kindness) overlooks the sins of the sinner and saves them as sinless.
Just a moment ago you said
“the Old Testament believers were saved by grace (God’s unearned favour) - Summary: the answer is NO.”
Which is it Robert?
ROb" Typical confusion Dave. I did not say these things like this?
Humans are saved by faith in the gracious kindness of Jesus willing to save humans from sinning, and this process does not involve some angel investigating the personal seen and unseen sins of the sinner, NO.
The process is just between you and your Saviour, and He saves you regardless of how little or how much sinning you did, you are saved by His grace, and by your faith, that allows Jesus to reach you and commune to you, with his grace. Faith is a communication tool, an active function in which you ask to receive. Jesus than responds.
Faith is not some mental assent, where you "daath". Faith is an action process where you "yada". These two hebrew words can be translated as "to know", but they are different than knowing.
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ROb PP" Why does the Opposer oppose humans than Dave?
D" Because he was created to devour / consume
R" NO, the Opposer is a sinning power, elohiym power that promotes TOV and RA
The other elohiym power promotes TOV.
There is a difference when free will is exercised.
RA is a spoiling , a dysfunction aspect. A fruit from missing GOD functioning in your life.
When you exercise free will to dsyfunction, your functional flow of God's power is broken.
GOD would never create a creature with spoiling, devouring and as an agent of RA. Terrible thing to consider. You are wrong to consider this idea.
Because you deny Ezekiel 28, you never understand why the Opposer opposes in the first place.
D" Because this is world is the kingdom of the BEAST – yet God gave man dominion it
Because that is how God made him/them
R" COnfused. When Adam sinned a court room declaration was announced in heaven.
Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation,
Two words here about court room scene
"judgement and condemnation"
When Adam sinned, he lost his crown as prince of earth and the crown moved to the Opposer, who is now prince of earth. Or was, until Jesus did and took back the crown, so the Opposer lost his crown and Jesus is prince of the earth, and can have whomever He wishes to live forver on his earth and in his kingdom. The subjects are those who wish to be freed from prison. The mind can choose Jesus, but the body is condemned by mischief. so Jesus has to atone for both mind and body.
D" Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
By Him for Him
R" SO SIN was inevitable as a consequence of this agent of RA doing bad things to human? Wrong.
Why the temptation of Eve than, if the agent of RA was already in the Eden garden and outside the garden with coal forming from natural death (and already in Eve's body - yester ra) . Really Dave.
When you have elohiym powers, you have a tree with fruit, and is a symbol of that power. There were TWO such trees in the middle Eden, showing TWO elohiym powers were already there. But you reject that idea.
The RA was never already there in Eve as yester ra, it was placed in a different tree outside of Eve, but inside the garden home as a choice for free will.
God did not create SIN, or the Opposer's SIN.
The free will is allowed to exercise without God control. But when the free will is chosen to do, GOD has to create the RA from the free will, because such RA normally does not exist under GOD, EVER, God is always TOV.
And the only way to allow SIN to exist, God has to move away, so a MEDIUM is established for this purpose. Medium carry powers passively and thus GOD can put up with SIN for a probation time, to allow free will to show itself. But you don't understad the Opposer has free will.
D" Rev 4:11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, For You created all things, and because of Your will they existed and were created!”
R" Yes the cherubims were created with free will.
But one exercised free will to sin. A verse you deny to read.
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Dave" NO – do the archon "CARE" if you sin – who knows?
ROb" OH so the Opposer did not care about Job being declared TOM? sinless before GOD?
Really Dave, try again to discuss my discussion?
Of course the Opposer cares about sin, humans that sin is his only ticket for allowing his kingdom to continue.
The Opposer wanted to make Jesus break faith, but couldn't, so his kingdom is doomed.
Dave" For one moment – the WORLD took his attention off of obedience to God
Did your satan force Moses to sin?
No – it was the consistent NOISE coming from the people – the world
ROb" correct, the Opposer cannot force, nor does GOD. Because GOD does not allow force.
If God removes his control, than the Opposer will use force, and this force is coming soon, once the great reset happens and the world supports the worship of the day of the Sun, the God of RA, the symbol of the Opposer, the elohiym power of RA.
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Previous posts
Dave" The only way for man to enter heaven is with the Divine Pardon
ROb" Does this happen while alive, or after you die?
Dave" Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this judgment,
Why do you deny the NT?
ROb" God pardons you when you are alive, and ask, ye receive. Your name is written in the Lamb's book of life, there is no judgement, no investigation of your past sins, you are hidden in your Saviour and Him alone.
Heb 9:27 is written for the unsupporter, the one who does not ask for salvation, after he dies, he faces judgement and punishment for his sins.
Not all humans are judged with sinnings done Dave, the righteous are saved by Jesus and the Day of Atonment on YOM Kippur, the sins are finally buried and some from the Opposer transferred unto him. See Lev 16
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PP" After all, it was the Serpent that called God a liar
Dave" God said if you eat of it you will die – guaranteed – is this true?
The serpent said – if you eat of it – it is NOT guaranteed that you will die without any hope of redemption
Who told Eve the truth?
God said the truth – just not the whole truth
and the serpent told the truth
It was a deception
ROb" You are opposing the authors words
"After all, it was the Serpent that called God a liar"
I agree, the serpent lied.
Dave" He promotes confusion, by quoting confusion from other sources.
He is an academic working on his PhD
ROb" exactly. Not a bible study even.
A collection of human studies.
Dave" He is an academic looking at the material without bias
ROb" bias? really? A nonbeliever comes with bias? You cannot read the torah unless you are a believer, otherwise you read with bias?
RobPP" Question: Does the Shad, or dragon, link to a saraph being?
Dave" No – the shedim are not heavenly seraphim angels
ROb" Want me to prove this to you?
De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils "SHAD", not to God; to gods "ELOIHYM" whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not
De 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom,
SHAD blood is the vine of Sodom, depravity and sinning.
De 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons,
Hence SHAD = tanniyn. "dragon"
Ex 7:9 God uses this power before Pharoah, but His power eats up Pharoah power, because GOD is stronger than the false elohiym power. Ex 7:12
Ps 44:19 tanniyn is associated with shadow of death'
Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day <yowm> the LORD <Y@hovah> with his sore <qasheh> and great <gadowl> and strong <chazaq> sword <chereb> shall punish <paqad>
leviathan <livyathan> (general term)
(1) the piercing <bariyach> serpent <nachash>,
(2) ..that crooked <`aqallathown> serpent <nachash>;
(3) and he shall slay <harag> the dragon <tanniyn>
The powers of false elohiym come in three forms, as listed here.
Nachash is one of those powers
Ge 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent <nachash> was <hayah> more subtil <`aruwm>
Nu 21:6 And the LORD <Y@hovah> sent <shalach> fiery <saraph> serpents <nachash> among the people
When Israel sinned, God allows the opposing elohiym power to come and empower Israel to sin more, and many die, a power from the false elohiym power, separating Israel from GOD, so the people die.
Saraph, is a function that means to burn.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims "saraph": each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Clearly the saraph are cherubim creatures or angels that surround GOD and His throne with free will to love Him freely.
Notice so hidden the poetry similes are, so no false scribe would intentionally remove the holy messages of GOD and thus the truth is preserved in the torah.
No need for Ezekiel 28, but it adds support to the verses I show.
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Dave" So you claim Ellen White and her teaching is superior to Martin Luther
ROb" Light is light, is a flood light more superior and a candle light? Light is light, why is more light better than less light? Your reasoning is flawed.
Dave" If satan did it 1 Chr 21:1 - you say it is a sin - or contradict yourself
If God did it 2 Sam 24:1 - you must contradict yourself - or call God a sinner
But accuse me of teaching confusion
ROb" Point taken.
I see David wanting to sin and number Israel armies, and so God allows the sin to grow, inviting a change over David's mind from God to the Opposer.
This switching process is common. In 1 Kings 22 we see the same idea, a lying medium is called to help the king sin some more.
If the stiff necks want to fight over humans and kill them, God allows their own human strength to achieve this, but is this really God's will for His saved? Or God bowing down to their powers of Self. God does not force Himself upon free will. What you are seeing the the strange act of GOD and the love of God for respect to human free will.
Does not the torah offer clues to how the weeds of the land were going to be removed?
Ex 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
No mention of humans cutting them off
Ex 23:27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come,
No mention of humans destroying the inhabitants
Ex 23:28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.
Did things happen this way as God said? No
Why not?
Dave" When the angel of Death took the lives of all the first born
You teach God forced this angel to commit sin
ROb" DId not God offer Egypt time to seek salvation thus God did not "ratsach" / wound Egypt. After that failed to respond, (many Egyptians did though and painted blood over thier door posts), is not GOD allowed to "hareg" them? Remove God's power of living from them?
Dave" I pity such mockery. All money collected is to help the poor, not the rich.
ROb" I agree
Dave" The base salary for Pastor in companies like Seventh Day Adventist range from $87,473 to $120,625 with the average base salary of $106,435.
ROb" I am disgusted to here this Dave, they shoudl get the same as me, 54,000 , only 28 dollars an hour.
Dave" The Seventh-Day Adventist Church Salary for President is estimated to be approximately $726447 per year
ROb" I am disgusted. NO wonder we get the wrong presidents.
Dave" Yep – and the SDA are no exception
Tell me again how - All money collected is to help the poor, not the rich.
ROB" I agree, disgusting.
RObPP" Eze 34:3 Ye eat the fat, ...but ye feed not the flock.
Selfish pastors....
Dave" Yep – that is exactly what I said
ROb Ditto
Dave" Now you contradict yourself
The SDA church is the 4th richest church in the WORLD..
Jan 12, 2023 — Half of surveyed Adventist pastors anticipated retiring as millionaires and the average was 1.5 million. * Anticipated net worth varied ..
I am disgusted, they should get 50,000 per year, just above the minium wage, and really less than that. Maybe they should get nothing and work for their own living, do the work as a hobby, not as a career?
Dave" Tell me again how – Ellen White and the SDA are different
ROb" Dave , six years when the SDA was formed in 1863, Mr White said to Mrs White, "come on Ellen, we are not wanted here", in reference to the General conference wanting to function without a prophets help.
So the rest of her life God's messages flowed through her to a backsliding stiff necked church.
Does not make the assembly not of GOD, but it shows how easily side tracked the Opposer can take those who do not support God, but support self.
Dave" Tell me again how – Ellen White and the SDA are different
ROb" The messages from GOD are true, the people who walked in self establishing buldings , etc living like fat man, are false.
DO you think the Opposer would want a true loving people of GOD on earth?
How long did Israel last? 40 days after the Exodus. The Opposer opposed God within 40 days.
The Opposer opposed the SDA within 6 years.
Same idea, the Opposer does not want humans to be saved and less, a whole assembly supporting God. This is why the pillar about faith is missing from the SDA church.
Dave" You are not academic – because you refuse to look at the facts without your bias
Rob" Dave I do not attend my local SDA church currently because of elders who rejects me and my unwelcome presence. Many of the assemblies are backsliden in terrible sins. I do not support them with my tithes anymore, yet I consider the SDA as present truth for me in the last days of time. The fact that people fail does not make truth they claim to follow fail. Truth is truth and never fails. The sola scriptoria is supreme, and does not need people to make it true.
How many true supporters entered the promised land? Only 2 out of 3 million Israel walkers.
Dave" Ellen White teaches you that you are without sin
ROb" WHy the mock. Ellen never teaches the saved are without sin? QUote her writings if you can. Stop making up stuff.
Dave" Your SDA church is a money laundry
ROb" Wrong. Just because corruption existed in the Jews in Jesus time did not stop Jesus from going to the corrupt church and as his custom from reading their and paying tithe to the corrupt church.
Dave" EXACTLY WHY – I do not claim allegiance with any of it
ROb" so what assembly do you attend than Dave?
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
We are to attend our assemblies... not forsake them...
My forsaken the assemblies is temporary for now...
Heb 10:25 ...so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
When are to assembly more when the end of time approaches... not less.
Dave" I am none of those – because they all come with CORPORATE baggage
ROb" the torah say to not to forsake the assmebly.
Dave" Passover begins on the night of a full moon after the northern vernal equinox.
Rob" Correct Ellen WHite explained Jesus was in Gethsemane on a full moon.
Your assumptions of her are false.
Dave" Rush Sharf – was a missionary pastor in our area – filled in for our pastor sometimes – he worked for “Prison Ministries” and services the prison.
Once a year we dedicated a Sunday to him – to tell us of his ministry and to ask for support – because he collects NO PAY CHECK
ROb" wow, corruption from your Pastor and n pay check from a real supporter of GOD.
Dave" So do NOT give me any crap about the SDA being any different – or even special – just another man-made cult – following an individual person instead of the Word of God - I HOPE I HAVE MADE MYSELF CLEAR!
ROb" WHo said anything about being a SDA? I follow the torah and the torah how ir reads? In the end of time the remnant is left. Who are these? Not from any particular church, but those who follow torah.
Dave" Belonging to a club is NOT the same as the CHURCH
and no on has the authority to rewrite scripture - not even Ellen White
Rob" True, Ellen White did not rewrite Scripture. Proof that she did? Many go to church as a club. True.
Does that mean we should not go? No
It means we should be God's witness regardless.
Your topic is off the thread. Truth is truth, go nothing to do with people who are corrupt.
DO you have a better assembly for the end of time?
Take your time with the thread on an Opposer opposing God.
Back to work...
Shalom
