Post by rob on Jun 16, 2023 4:50:10 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
I really liked reading how you understand Scripture, the torah writings.
The problem I have with your method, is is not authorized by God, ie how God says His Bible should be read? Should not God have written down somewhere how to read the torah?
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1094.htm
I would like you to read my understanding of how the Bible says the Bible should be studied.
1) Do you agree with my 7 findings? as shown here
(1) Measure truth from big and little marks
(2) Build truth from the standard of Jesus
(3) Plumb the truth against other marks
(4) Plough until straight and humble
(5) Beware of false human traditions..
(6) The miracle of meekness from study
(7) Listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit
In the Discussion, I go into details regarding the reading of the torah, as the torah itself reads according to my cultural understanding.
I agree Jews have different levels of reading, but my question should the torah be like this?
After all God wrote the messages and the Jews penned it into the words using ink. So surely the message is inspired, therefore all should be in harmony?
In reading my discussion, I write to laypeople using child like language and methods.
Why do I do this?
Ps 131:1 ¶ LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
2 Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.
3 Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever.
Because the writings say so, to read Scriptures as a child, and leave the hard bits alone.
-------------------
DAVE: " You miss the meaning – or pervert the meaning by playing your word games
Rob: I see. Since God does not include a dictionary in his torah, how do we understand the meaning of His words than? Do we understand words like you do, reading Strong's definitions? Or get secular meaning from sources outside of the Bible, such as traditions of men, and say the meanings of words are the same as secular men associate them? What does Scripture say about using these methods?
Why can't the Bible be it's own source of authority? Please answer this question.
Dave proves to Rob, one of his word games:
Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Here the word ruwach is again mentioned, but is a broken HS... what does this mean?
Dave replies: "No such thing as a broken Holy Spirit
The broken spirit within David = David’s spirit in repentance
Rob counter replies : "When I asked what does this mean Dave, I am not saying there is such a thing as a broken HS? So why can't you read my sentences? I agree with you, "The broken spirit within David = David’s spirit in repentance" And in my view this means the relationship connection of GOD to David is broken because of some sin David did, and thus this missing needs to be corrected.
The language of Hebrew is just as quirky as my own sentences. All languages have cultural idioms in them, so do not mock or try to say you understand. Let's learn from each other.
In my view we have the HS already living within us, so a broken HS refers to a broken relationship, and taken to its full sense would spell the end of our living, ie we would die without God's presence. I have read of Jews smoking making bad health but sincere with the YHWH, so the Lord overrides the problem with continued living. How much love God has for us all, especially the ignorant.
So in this example you provide, I agree "the Broken HS passage of words", refers to a broken relationship with the HS, but it is written this way because GOD is the author of all living in David, and David's death, and so God is the father of all things. Yet David has to repent his sins, otherwise God's relationship to David, though broken will finally break, if no repenting is done. Does my rambling make sense to you?
DAVE: "Your question is all about you – how do you obtain – what SIGN would satisfy you
Rob: " It's never about me, surely God can answer the big questions of life?
Surely God who gave us the torah, also gives us instructions in how to read torah?
Dave asks "What sign would satisfy me"?
Rob replies, "Why do I seek a sign? Surely God would tell you how to read His won inspired words?
Surely God defines the process of saving you as a child of God?
Dave" The Methodist teach the method – basically it is the more time you spend with God – the more you do for God – the more time you spend the more you do – the more God is with you.
To this I say – OK - whatever works – the Jewish Parade lived on for 1000 years – repeating the message – over and over – precept upon precept.
Rob" Hmm? We are repeating NOT what Scripture says, instead promoting the use of human traditions and precepts of men. Surely God Himself tells you how to read the torah and how we are saved by God?
Dave" Do you not understand scripture – or do you doubt scripture - trust is a full part of faith
Rob "I asked you to define what faith means to you, I did not ask you to mock and debate my understanding or low IQ as others suggest. I can read the torah as much as you can, I can read Greek and Hebrew as well to a basic level, so the problem is not my reading ability.
I asked you what does faith mean to you and give me a practical example of faith working in your life. I have done this for you, now you do this for me.
By the way, in my understanding of AMANHEY (spelt my way in the Hebrew) the understanding of trust is a nebulus term. Not a hebrew concept, a Greek concept perhaps, fitting the idea of faith as some mental assent. Faith is a concrete functional doing word, and has little to do with trust. Just my two pennies on faith (Since you asked for my view) Now you tell me your view of faith.
Dave: "I thought you were a seeker of the truth ?
Rob" I am a seeker of truth. How can one seek truth if people get upset because I ask too many questions? It seems to me nobody has Hebrew ujnderstanding of faith (except Jeff Benner and maybe Ellen White), so why don't we define faith correctly first and play this word game seriously.
Just because somebody invented a meaning for faith hundreds of years ago, does not mean all churches should follow blindly that meaning. I have questioned it. I ask you to investigate my studies and prove me right or wrong.
Dave: "only you make the claim that man’s spirit is a part of God – No Jew every thought as you do
Rob: " Oh? So is the "spirit" in the man, created by God and gifted from God to the man? Or is the spirit inside the man, not created by God, but actually a part of God gifted by God to man? Which idea do you support Dave?
You answer these questions in the next lines
"Dave " God created man – spirit beings – each independent
Rob: " SO if the spirit beings in each man is created, than it is made of matter? And thus dependent upon God for its continual existence?
Your theory is no more weird than mine is.
You have a created spirit I have a created spirit
Your spirit can talk outside the body My spirit talks only when connected to the body
Your spirit is created on day 1 and later again the body on day 6. Two creation processes.
I have one process on day 6, for both the body and the spirit.
Dave: "I have always said this – if man is just the HS – then why does the HS sin?
Rob: " Because the HS is a word that means "medium" and thus the "medium" takes a passive functional role in your living, not an active role. When you choose to sin, the medium allows your spirit to sin freely, the medium moans you have sinned and maybe talks to you during the sin and maybe before you sin, but allows you sin because you desire to sin freely. God respects free will and does not treat us as robots.
Secondly man is not just the HS, (as you think I claim) --- > man is the HS + his own spirit + his own body. In Hebrew these words are ruwach, namashah and basar.
------------
Dave" Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
When was man created?
Answer – Day 1
Rob" Now who is playing a word game? What does "host" mean?
This statement is declared after the first week, 7 days ?
How many pelicans were on the earth than? Only 2
How many cows ? Only 2
How many sheep? Only 2
How many humans? Only 2
THus the heavens and the earth were finished and all the "beings created" of them.
The statement does not mean a billon pelicans were in the earth in the first 7 days,
nor does it mean that for humans either.
How do you get the idea man was created on day 1? Bible text please.
---------------------
You did not discuss your view of faith
1) Aaron and Hur were do "faith" on Moses arms?
2) The soldiers were doing "faith" for the centurion general?
3) The nail was doing "faith" to the picture painting hanging off the nail.
4) The food is doing "faith" to those who eat the food
Explain to me how these 4 examples show faith as a belief concept? Or a trust concept?
The word meaning for "Faith" has to fit all contexts including these 4 also.
However the word meaning "support" fits all contexts.
SHalom
I really liked reading how you understand Scripture, the torah writings.
The problem I have with your method, is is not authorized by God, ie how God says His Bible should be read? Should not God have written down somewhere how to read the torah?
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1094.htm
I would like you to read my understanding of how the Bible says the Bible should be studied.
1) Do you agree with my 7 findings? as shown here
(1) Measure truth from big and little marks
(2) Build truth from the standard of Jesus
(3) Plumb the truth against other marks
(4) Plough until straight and humble
(5) Beware of false human traditions..
(6) The miracle of meekness from study
(7) Listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit
In the Discussion, I go into details regarding the reading of the torah, as the torah itself reads according to my cultural understanding.
I agree Jews have different levels of reading, but my question should the torah be like this?
After all God wrote the messages and the Jews penned it into the words using ink. So surely the message is inspired, therefore all should be in harmony?
In reading my discussion, I write to laypeople using child like language and methods.
Why do I do this?
Ps 131:1 ¶ LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
2 Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.
3 Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and for ever.
Because the writings say so, to read Scriptures as a child, and leave the hard bits alone.
-------------------
DAVE: " You miss the meaning – or pervert the meaning by playing your word games
Rob: I see. Since God does not include a dictionary in his torah, how do we understand the meaning of His words than? Do we understand words like you do, reading Strong's definitions? Or get secular meaning from sources outside of the Bible, such as traditions of men, and say the meanings of words are the same as secular men associate them? What does Scripture say about using these methods?
Why can't the Bible be it's own source of authority? Please answer this question.
Dave proves to Rob, one of his word games:
Ps 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Here the word ruwach is again mentioned, but is a broken HS... what does this mean?
Dave replies: "No such thing as a broken Holy Spirit
The broken spirit within David = David’s spirit in repentance
Rob counter replies : "When I asked what does this mean Dave, I am not saying there is such a thing as a broken HS? So why can't you read my sentences? I agree with you, "The broken spirit within David = David’s spirit in repentance" And in my view this means the relationship connection of GOD to David is broken because of some sin David did, and thus this missing needs to be corrected.
The language of Hebrew is just as quirky as my own sentences. All languages have cultural idioms in them, so do not mock or try to say you understand. Let's learn from each other.
In my view we have the HS already living within us, so a broken HS refers to a broken relationship, and taken to its full sense would spell the end of our living, ie we would die without God's presence. I have read of Jews smoking making bad health but sincere with the YHWH, so the Lord overrides the problem with continued living. How much love God has for us all, especially the ignorant.
So in this example you provide, I agree "the Broken HS passage of words", refers to a broken relationship with the HS, but it is written this way because GOD is the author of all living in David, and David's death, and so God is the father of all things. Yet David has to repent his sins, otherwise God's relationship to David, though broken will finally break, if no repenting is done. Does my rambling make sense to you?
DAVE: "Your question is all about you – how do you obtain – what SIGN would satisfy you
Rob: " It's never about me, surely God can answer the big questions of life?
Surely God who gave us the torah, also gives us instructions in how to read torah?
Dave asks "What sign would satisfy me"?
Rob replies, "Why do I seek a sign? Surely God would tell you how to read His won inspired words?
Surely God defines the process of saving you as a child of God?
Dave" The Methodist teach the method – basically it is the more time you spend with God – the more you do for God – the more time you spend the more you do – the more God is with you.
To this I say – OK - whatever works – the Jewish Parade lived on for 1000 years – repeating the message – over and over – precept upon precept.
Rob" Hmm? We are repeating NOT what Scripture says, instead promoting the use of human traditions and precepts of men. Surely God Himself tells you how to read the torah and how we are saved by God?
Dave" Do you not understand scripture – or do you doubt scripture - trust is a full part of faith
Rob "I asked you to define what faith means to you, I did not ask you to mock and debate my understanding or low IQ as others suggest. I can read the torah as much as you can, I can read Greek and Hebrew as well to a basic level, so the problem is not my reading ability.
I asked you what does faith mean to you and give me a practical example of faith working in your life. I have done this for you, now you do this for me.
By the way, in my understanding of AMANHEY (spelt my way in the Hebrew) the understanding of trust is a nebulus term. Not a hebrew concept, a Greek concept perhaps, fitting the idea of faith as some mental assent. Faith is a concrete functional doing word, and has little to do with trust. Just my two pennies on faith (Since you asked for my view) Now you tell me your view of faith.
Dave: "I thought you were a seeker of the truth ?
Rob" I am a seeker of truth. How can one seek truth if people get upset because I ask too many questions? It seems to me nobody has Hebrew ujnderstanding of faith (except Jeff Benner and maybe Ellen White), so why don't we define faith correctly first and play this word game seriously.
Just because somebody invented a meaning for faith hundreds of years ago, does not mean all churches should follow blindly that meaning. I have questioned it. I ask you to investigate my studies and prove me right or wrong.
Dave: "only you make the claim that man’s spirit is a part of God – No Jew every thought as you do
Rob: " Oh? So is the "spirit" in the man, created by God and gifted from God to the man? Or is the spirit inside the man, not created by God, but actually a part of God gifted by God to man? Which idea do you support Dave?
You answer these questions in the next lines
"Dave " God created man – spirit beings – each independent
Rob: " SO if the spirit beings in each man is created, than it is made of matter? And thus dependent upon God for its continual existence?
Your theory is no more weird than mine is.
You have a created spirit I have a created spirit
Your spirit can talk outside the body My spirit talks only when connected to the body
Your spirit is created on day 1 and later again the body on day 6. Two creation processes.
I have one process on day 6, for both the body and the spirit.
Dave: "I have always said this – if man is just the HS – then why does the HS sin?
Rob: " Because the HS is a word that means "medium" and thus the "medium" takes a passive functional role in your living, not an active role. When you choose to sin, the medium allows your spirit to sin freely, the medium moans you have sinned and maybe talks to you during the sin and maybe before you sin, but allows you sin because you desire to sin freely. God respects free will and does not treat us as robots.
Secondly man is not just the HS, (as you think I claim) --- > man is the HS + his own spirit + his own body. In Hebrew these words are ruwach, namashah and basar.
------------
Dave" Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
When was man created?
Answer – Day 1
Rob" Now who is playing a word game? What does "host" mean?
This statement is declared after the first week, 7 days ?
How many pelicans were on the earth than? Only 2
How many cows ? Only 2
How many sheep? Only 2
How many humans? Only 2
THus the heavens and the earth were finished and all the "beings created" of them.
The statement does not mean a billon pelicans were in the earth in the first 7 days,
nor does it mean that for humans either.
How do you get the idea man was created on day 1? Bible text please.
---------------------
You did not discuss your view of faith
1) Aaron and Hur were do "faith" on Moses arms?
2) The soldiers were doing "faith" for the centurion general?
3) The nail was doing "faith" to the picture painting hanging off the nail.
4) The food is doing "faith" to those who eat the food
Explain to me how these 4 examples show faith as a belief concept? Or a trust concept?
The word meaning for "Faith" has to fit all contexts including these 4 also.
However the word meaning "support" fits all contexts.
SHalom