Jewish Commentary of Gen 2:7

[Dave]

Spirituality: Soul Birth - Rabbi Menachem Wolf
youtu.be/x4XTmC1ggAQ

1- because this Rabbi is speaking about spirit – we know he is a Hasidic Jew – and a Kabbalist
2- is he of Chabad like Rabbi Friedman of whom I have much respect – unknown
Sometimes he dies not agree with Chabad – but then again a Chabad student would not misunderstand him
3- So – remember – his audience are students of the Kabbalah

His reference material = the Tanya (never heard of it) Zohar and Kabbalah

00:00 - Blah bla blah about breath and breathing
06:40 finally gets to the point – Genesis 2:7 and the soul of man
14:20 – Jewish trinity – the creator = knows, the knowledge, and the known
33:40 – man is a little piece of infinity – trapped within infinity

Gen 1:26-27 God spoke man into existence – animal
Gen 2:7 God breathed into man his soul
Man = (god breathed man + God spoke man) = (spirit/soul + animal)

36:15 – God gave of Himself – as in we are all little pieces of God as dyonetics (Scientology ) teaches – we are all god- and Father God is a collective of us

No – remember his audience = Kabbalah students
God bara (fattened Himself) into all creation – Correct Agreed
Does this mean the angels are God – no they are a separate being – individual – and unique
Does this mean the cows are God – not they are a separate being – an animal – individual and unique
Does this mean the archon are God – or that man is God – no
Each an independent – separate being – individual – and unique
But it does mean that at the sub atomic level – the HS is the E that energizes / sustains / is the matric / ether of the ALL

38:00 – God consults with the souls
YES – Jewish Kabbalah – during the first age with everything was the invisible heavens
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens – earth (visible creation) came afterwards

39:10 – we are fragments of God –
Again – either his audience understand him differently – or Chabad Judaism would disagree

The Point – the Jewish Commentary of Gen 2:7
What makes man different that the animals that were spoken into existence
Answer – we were spoken into existence in Gen 1 – and in Gen 2:7 our souls were breathed into us – from the depths of God – that give us depth – and man became a living being – a spirit trapped within an animal man

Man = (soul from the breath of God + animal man spoke to existence by God)
Man = (spirit/soul + animal man)
Man = (soul/spirit + (Mind/Body))
Man = (the spiritual home of yester tov + the biological home of yester ra)
This is why man is the only creature that can choose

[Deleted]

Greetings Dave

33:40 – man is a little piece of infinity – trapped within infinity


36:15 – God gave of Himself – as in we are all little pieces of God as dyonetics (Scientology ) teaches – we are all god- and Father God is a collective of us

I listened from 33 to 40 minutes in.

This borders on the verge of pantheism. We are not a part of GOD, nor do we have "spirits" as if we are also little sparks of divinity. God cannot impart a "little spark of divinity" that each of us owns, as "our spirit".

If you look closely at the Hebrew word nepesh, comes in both verb and noun forms, and hence must have the same overall meaning.

Verb means to energize. The noun means energy. The actions are different.

SO GOD breaths living chay into the dust and the "adam" became "chay""nephesh",
man became living energy.

Rocks have energy, yes but they are no living.

Animals have energy, yes and also we are told have living energy. SO all animals think, and do and make decisions.

But one verse says:

Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Man has his medium go upward and animals downward, when man's living energy sleeps in death.

The medium is simple a conduit for the chay of GOD to flow into dust so the nephesh remains living energy. If the medium goes away, the flow stops and the energy is no longer living.

Your rabbi, goes into too much mystery, bringing in confusion.

SHalom

[Dave]

I listened from 33 to 40 minutes
Wow – Robert – there for a minute I didn't think you would take this seriously
Now you are completely verse in what this viseo presented we are able to discuss all of it in depth
Oh – Ooops – you only went to the section I already identified as not consistent with Chabad Judaism and my particular views – just so you could heap on your ridicule
The effort of a true student and scholar

This borders on the verge of pantheism.
You miss apply English terms - the concept that we are all God in a collective is Apotheosis

We are not a part of GOD,
Of course we are part of God E=mc2 – which part of the m or c2 has no E – how silly

nor do we have "spirits"
Scripture says - 1Th 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit, - so your satan church doctrine mandates that you deny scripture

God cannot impart a "little spark of divinity" that each of us owns, as "our spirit".
YES as always your defense is to limit God and His abilities –
you have no problem diminishing God

If you look closely at the Hebrew word nepesh, comes in both verb and noun forms, and hence must have the same overall meaning.
So of course – all you have to do is rewrite 5000 years of Jewish theology and 200 years of Christian theology and you will be correct
You are alone in your view

Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
According to you – this scripture is in error – man has no spirit

Your rabbi, goes into too much mystery, bringing in confusion.
How do you even know this – you didn’t even listen to the presentation
You have no clue to his point

[Deleted]

OK I listened again and made some notes for us.

direct quotes


Book Tannuah 200 yr ago 2.00

Everyone has its place.

When you have a little of infinity you have all of infinity. 30.00

Gives you a portal.

Within a portal to the infinite amount.

Small amount of infinite energy inside of me, spiritual energy

Umbilical cord between me and the Creator

Soul connects to me from outside, breathing connects outside with inside.

Until we discover things, they do not exist.

Soul is a little bit of infinite, infinite gave of itself so we can exist. 36.05

As I said, what he says is nice, but it also borders on pantheism.

Can the Infinity God impart us with a little of Infinity? Hmm? Don't know Dave.

Only God has infinity.

To me the dusty atoms have the medium (Umbilical cord between me and the Creator) and so we become living energy. Agree.

Does the rabbi speak of spirit bodies that talk and see God before they entered our dust, as you seem to think?

Where does our rabbi speak of this detail? I got as far as 36 minutes in??

Shalom

[Deleted]

Ha Shem consults with the soul, his mind is one, so not really independent our souls,

can't write his words, talks fast. One blows within Him, no process of simsum

It is core. Core infinity energy keeps us alive. 40.27

Hard to follow, perhaps you can help me out here.

[Dave]

Hard to follow, perhaps you can help me out here.
If you did not understand his point then:
1- You didn’t really listen or pay attention
2- You did hear what he said – but it is so contrary to your doctrine that you choose not to listen and started finding fault with his first sentence and the rest of the video passed by as you struggled over words
3- you did hear his words – and just resist because he is a Rabbi and all Judaisn is to be scorned – Canon 29 of the Council of Lydeocea demands it
4- or you have a learning disability

God created everything with the spoken word
God said – let there be – and there it was
Gen 1 – God spoke the plants and animals into existence
Adam is a Hebrew word meaning man / mankind / all humanity
Gen 1:27 God spoke humanoid animal man into existence

Gen 2:7 is about the creation of the man named Adam
Everything else in all of creation was created by the spoken word
Only Adam (homo sapiens) us – our species – was created by the (unspoken) breath
Only Adam was created with something more – something different – that all the rest of creation
Only Adam was a DEEPER creation – not from the mouth – but of the heart

OK I listened again and made some notes for us.
Gives you a portal.
Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Within a portal to the infinite amount.
Umbilical cord between me and the Creator
Communion with the infinite – praying in the spirt vrs praying to a spirit
Your doctrine denies this is even possible – you deny the spirit

Small amount of infinite energy inside of me, spiritual energy
Soul is a little bit of infinite, infinite gave of itself so we can exist
YES – The true form of man is spirit – the body is just a shell / a vehicle
Only God has infinity.
Clarification – infinity = no beginning as well as no end
Man’s Spirit is eternal = it had a beginning and lives with no end = eternal life (life lives)

Christians are usually taught that eternal life is a gif we receive at the end
Sorry – please read you scripture – at the Final Judgment – no one receives a gift
Just the opposite
Those who do not pass the test – failed the Contest – will not repent are terminated / killed / put to death in the Lake of Fire
We are created as spirit and spirit is eternal
Adam and Eve (man) were created Perfect – until unrighteous was found within him
And the punishment for that – the reward for that = death and the second death in the future
This is what God told Adam
The serpent quoted God word for word – but added a negation / a negative
The serpent said – NOT death and the second death in the future

You insist that the serpent lied – but the entire point of scripture validates the fact

Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous—no, not one.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Interesting word PERISH - G622 - ἀπόλλυμι - From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

G575 - ἀπό - In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.
G3639 - ὄλεθρος - a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death,

John 3:16 – does not say – if we believe we will not have a mortal death – a temporary thing
John 3:16 says – if you believe you will not experience a completely ceasing death of complete separation - in the future at the Final Judgment

You insist that the serpent lied

Until we discover things, they do not exist.
Please tell me this is not a confusing statement for you

POINT – please consider how you look at information
You take all the information and force into one- dimensional-ism

Of course electricity, quantum computing, and nuclear resonance existed from the beginning
But man’s view is/was so limited that we couldn’t even – RECOGNISE WHAT WAS IN OUR SIGHT all the time

As I said, what he says is nice, but it also borders on pantheism.
Word man
Pantheism = multiple gods above us
Apotheosis = the concept that we are all God in a collective

Does the rabbi speak of spirit bodies that talk and see God before they entered our dust, as you seem to think?
Hmmm? - Until we discover things, they do not exist
He also said nothing about North America – does this mean I do not exist
The point of his commentary was specific – his audience is also of his same religion / culture
He is not explaining it to a room full of doubting a skeptical Christians - DUH

POINT - You take all the information and force into one- dimensional-ism

Can the Infinity God impart us with a little of Infinity? Hmm? Don't know
You have been taught differently by your doctrine – only
Your Judeo-Christian Culture all see it differently

To me the dusty atoms have the medium (Umbilical cord between me and the Creator) and so we become living energy. Agree.

POINT - You take all the information and force into one- dimensional-ism

YES – the HS – the Spirit of God – the c2 of the E=mc2 is the matrix / ether / substrate / sustainer of the ALL (all creation – all 10Ds of it and everything in them = the Gnostic ALL)
This is the very concept of dimensionality
The First dimension singularity – the point that contains all data, all power
Expanded into the 2nd dimensional planar reality that is the matrix / ether at the very base of creation
The Spirit of God went out from God – reached our from God - expanded – fattened (bara)
And through this (womb) all things we created
Man stops at – and all 3D things were created
But the truth is a 10D reality

So YES – at the base – the HS sustains all things – at a level even lower than the sub-atomic

POINT - You take all the information and force into one- dimensional-ism

This has nothing to do with the level of biological consciousness – an entirely different level of reality
Biological consciousness was spoken into creation by God – just like all animals

And the spirit of man was breathed into our biological bodies (with its consciousness) at Gen 2:7
Man / Adam is the only creature created by god speaking him into existence + God breathing him into existence
Man = (spirit + animal) = (spirit + (Mind/Body))

POINT - You take all the information and force into one- dimensional-ism

At the time of Adam (man) named Adam
There were up to 8 different types of hominids co-existing on planet earth
I know who Cain married - the daughters of men (man / humanoid)

Only homo sapiens survived the flood

The fossil record – science – evolutional theory (which is actually Incremental Creation) (every creature created / reproduces after its own kind / and dies out) and a whole bunch more evidence

evidence that you must deny – all looks 100% scriptural to me

Things only happened one way – God’s way – and all evidence must support the One True creator

[Deleted]

I listened to the rabbi again from 30 minutes in.

Below are my notes, direct quotes from his words:

And I quote"

Portal to the infinity
I don't live because I am plugged into infinity, spiritual energy is different
soul connects to what is outside, breathing connects outside to inside.
In and out are one.
I assume my inside doesn't exist because I can't see it?
It we don't discover things, they don't exist.
Spirituality: Soul Birth - Rabbi Menachem Wolf
Infinite gave of itself, to allow us to exist.
Before creation, we existed. Thought process.
Can't put thoughts on paper.
Dreams happen and we can't put our dreams on paper.
Gets a part of Himself and places it into the body of the person.
Blows within him comes from the very core.
Keep us alive is core infinite energy.
Human believes it is independent of a Creator.
We are the only apes in this world where we came from.
Creation is a theory, impossible to fathom.
God still allows the energy to keep flowing.
Parents say my bedroom, kids say my space... or you pay rent. I will give you time...
God gives us time.
Discover this creative breathing process. Appreciate, where breath come from.
Soul leaves us when we stop breathing. " End of Utube.

D"If you did not understand his point then:
1- You didn’t really listen or pay attention
2- You did hear what he said – but it is so contrary to your doctrine that you choose not to listen and started finding fault with his first sentence and the rest of the video passed by as you struggled over words
3- you did hear his words – and just resist because he is a Rabbi and all Judaisn is to be scorned – Canon 29 of the Council of Lydeocea demands it
4- or you have a learning disability

R" I was listening Dave. I write things down, when I listen. So above is a record of my listening. Check to see if what I wrote agrees with what he said?

D"and started finding fault with his first sentence and the rest of the video passed by as you struggled over words
R Maybe. He speaks fast, and often uses Hebrew words.

Rob"Gives you a portal.
Dave" Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit
Rob" You misquote this verse. This verse is speaking of a second birth,

The rabbi is speaking of our first birth. Nothing wrong with our first birth, so no need for a second birth. The second birth is to restore what we lost from our first birth, since Adam sinned. When Adam sinned we lost something.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This verse say when Adam sinned, death came in. For all through Adam inherit a dying DNA.

D" Adam and Eve (man) were created Perfect – until unrighteous was found within him
And the punishment for that – the reward for that = death and the second death in the future
This is what God told Adam
The serpent quoted God word for word – but added a negation / a negative
The serpent said – NOT death and the second death in the future

You insist that the serpent lied –


D" Answer this than
(1) How does a wicked person's "little infinite energy part of GOD" die the second death, when the spirit given to this wicked man, is eternal and cannot die?

D" The serpent quoted God word for word

R" The serpent did not quote GOD word for word

Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Ge 2:17 for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

D" The serpent quoted God word for word – but added a negation / a negative
R Boy you read things strange.

God said, eat this fruit and you will dying die. (Muwth written twice)

Devil says NOT dying die. (Muwth written twice). And than adds

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

It is necessary to know good and evil, or be like God knowing good and evil? This is also a lie.

-----
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You say Adam and Eve experience natural death of things before they sinned yet you also say "Adam and Eve (man) were created Perfect – until unrighteous was found within him"


Well natural dying is the same as Romans 5:12.

And any chaos, friction, or entropy is a product of sin too, otherwise the world is not perfect.

These things, chaos, friction, or entropy is a product of sin too, is what DEATH means.

Death is caused by chaos, friction, or entropy is a product of sin.

------------------------

Back to our rabbi

Rabbi "Gets a part of Himself "thing" and places it "process" into the body of the person.
Blows within him "process" comes from the very core.


Rob" Is our soul, a thing or a process?

Notice Scripture"

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God "thing" formed man "process" of the dust of the ground "thing", and breathed "process" into his nostrils "thing" the breath "medium" "a thing which allows for a process" of life "process"; and man "thing" became a living "process" soul "thing".

God "thing" did not impart "process" man "thing" with a part "thing" of Himself "thing" so our "soul" thing" lives"process".

Our rabbi at the end says"
Soul leaves us when we stop breathing.
He doesn't elaborate.

Our other rabbi says our soul lives, after mortal death.

Some Scripture on the topic of soul "nephesh". Unlike our rabbi who never quoted scripture once.

Ps 7:2 Lest he tear <taraph> my soul <nephesh> like a lion <'ariy>, rending it in pieces <paraq>, while there is none to deliver <natsal>.


How can a soul be torn into pieces, if it is a spirit ?

Ps 11:1 how say <'amar> ye to my soul <nephesh>, Flee <nuwd> as a bird <tsippowr> to your mountain <har>?

Here in poetry simile, our soul is compared to a bird to fly the God as a simile of a mountain.

The HS is a simile of the bird also.


Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave <`azab> my soul <nephesh> in hell <sh@'owl>; neither wilt thou suffer <nathan> thine Holy One <chaciyd> to see <ra'ah> corruption <shachath>.

When Jesus died, his soul stay in hell, as Jesus went there 3 days and 3 nights.

When humans die:

Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Did the breath? Here the HS, leave Jesus when He died ?

Ps 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Yes

Mr 15:37 And <de> Jesus <Iesous> cried <aphiemi> with a loud <megas> voice <phone>, and gave up the ghost <ekpneo>.

SO Jesus stopped breathing.

Notice the soul, also went to hell with the body, when Jesus died.

Pr 6:32 But whoso committeth adultery <na'aph> with a woman <'ishshah> lacketh <chacer> understanding <leb>: he that doeth <`asah> it destroyeth <shachath> his own soul <nephesh>.

Why is adultery bad for the soul? Because the HS is a simile of a woman, and you spoil the divine medium that empowers your living energy, if you "break marriage" with this relationship.

Pr 8:36 But he that sinneth <chata'> against me wrongeth <chamac> his own soul <nephesh>: all they that hate <sane'> me love <'ahab> death <maveth>.

Soul death is related to sin, and it is sin that causes the soul to die.

Pr 21:10 ¶ The soul <nephesh> of the wicked <rasha`> desireth <'avah> evil <ra`>:

THis opposes the verse that says God creates RA. God allows CHAY in souls normally, but if the wicked person seeks RA, GOD has to create that which GOD would not normally wish.

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat <nakah> him with the rod <shebet>, and shalt deliver <natsal> his soul <nephesh> from hell <sh@'owl>.

ANother verse that says our souls eventually go to hell, if we do not seek salvation.

Isa 55:3 Incline <natah> your ear <'ozen>, and come <yalak> unto me: hear <shama`>, and your soul <nephesh> shall live <chayah>;

As this verse says using "chayah" not "chay"
.
D"You insist that the serpent lied
R Yes.

The very second Adam ate of the fruit from the tree of tov and RA, the RA came flooding into Adam for the first time, and all of creation as well. Where did this RA come from? From GOD creating the RA. Not something GOD would normally do, but Adam chose sin, so GOD creates a world allowing sin to exist. Without GOD nothing would exist, not even a world that GOD does not like, but hates. Cannot exist unless GOD allows a world of sin to exist.
You mean the medium that allows the living energy to allow souls living immediately changed it's flow of energy into Adam and Eve? Yes, immediately a change. They became naked. There are 7 Hebrew words all meaning naked.

See my study on the lost covering. spiritualsprings.org/ss-1027.htm

Some think when you die, your chemistry ends immediately. No, death is a term to describe the missing of GOD within you, the first death is called a sleep, the second death is when God truly leaves you forever, and you cease to exist, because without GOD nothing exists. Death is about separation from GOD. 

Shalom

[Dave]

Rob"Gives you a portal.
Dave" Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit
Rob" You misquote this verse. This verse is speaking of a second birth,
YEP – the awaking of our spirit – so that we can commune with God spirit to spirit

The rabbi is speaking of our first birth.
Nothing wrong with our first birth, so no need for a second birth. The second birth is to restore what we lost from our first birth, since Adam sinned. When Adam sinned we lost something.
See what you have said - so no need for a second birth
There you go - denying the spirit - and denying the very words of Jesus

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
YEP – Adam and Eve both proved it – all men do and will yield to their yester ra
YEP – all men are sinners - correct

This verse say when Adam sinned, death came in. For all through Adam inherit a dying DNA.
Yep – all the offspring from Eve are also mortal – correct
And this verse is just speak to man about man – does not say that because Adam sinned lions were finally able to eat and sharked stopped being vegetarian
YEP – because of Adam and Eve4 – all mankind suffers a mortal death

D" Adam and Eve (man) were created Perfect – until unrighteous was found within him
And the punishment for that – the reward for that = death and the second death in the future
This is what God told Adam
The serpent quoted God word for word – but added a negation / a negative
The serpent said – NOT death and the second death in the future

You insist that the serpent lied –

D" Answer this than
(1) How does a wicked person's "little infinite energy part of GOD" die the second death, when the spirit given to this wicked man, is eternal and cannot die?

Scripture never says that our eternal life cannot not be extinguished by God
We are all born eternal – it is totally up to man to commit spiritual suicide by failing to repent

D" The serpent quoted God word for word
R" The serpent did not quote GOD word for word
D" The serpent quoted God word for word – but added a negation / a negative
R Boy you read things strange.

Ge 2:17 for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 2:17 מות תמות׃
Gen 2:17 θανατω αποθανεισθε

Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Gen 3:4 ויאמר הנחשׁ אל האשׁה לא מות תמתון׃
Gen 3:4 ου θανατω αποθανεισθε

God said, eat this fruit and you will dying die. (Muwth written twice)
Devil says NOT dying die. (Muwth written twice).
Yep! – word for word – read your scripture

And than adds

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
YEP – now Eve then Adam both gnosis – knew – knew better – and they were ashamed

-----
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You say Adam and Eve experience natural death of things before they sinned yet you also say "Adam and Eve (man) were created Perfect – until unrighteous was found within him"
YES Robert – the archon had possession of this domain long before Adam and Eve (man)
YES Robert – nature was in full swing in it delicate balance that indicates Intelligent Design

Well natural dying is the same as Romans 5:12.
You just made an assumption
Do you know hoew we teach our kids to spell assume
It make an ASS of U and ME

And any chaos, friction, or entropy is a product of sin too, otherwise the world is not perfect.
Sorry Robert – There is nothing made that was not made by God
Shall I quote the same verse over and over

Death is caused by chaos, friction, or entropy is a product of sin.
Mortal death was caused by Adam and Eve – now we are mortal like all the other animals
The Second Death – is only caused by you refusing to repent – you are the master of your own fate
The choices are your – only you - alone with God

[Dave]

Rob" Is our soul, a thing or a process?
God "thing" did not impart "process" man "thing" with a part "thing" of Himself "thing" so our "soul" thing" lives"process".
Correct – our soul is not a piece of God – our soul is us – individual – independent - and unique

Our rabbi at the end says"
Soul leaves us when we stop breathing.
He doesn't elaborate.
DUH - Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth?

Our other rabbi says our soul lives, after mortal death.
DUH - Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth?

Some Scripture on the topic of soul "nephesh". Unlike our rabbi who never quoted scripture once.

Ps 7:2 Lest he tear <taraph> my soul <nephesh> like a lion <'ariy>, rending it in pieces <paraq>, while there is none to deliver <natsal>.
How can a soul be torn into pieces, if it is a spirit ?
WOW – everything in scripture is a metaphor – except the metaphor - amazing

Ps 11:1 how say <'amar> ye to my soul <nephesh>, Flee <nuwd> as a bird <tsippowr> to your mountain <har>?
Here in poetry simile, our soul is compared to a bird to fly the God as a simile of a mountain.
YEP! – the spirit of man – in communion upward – with the spirit of God
Spirit to spirit

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave <`azab> my soul <nephesh> in hell <sh@'owl>; neither wilt thou suffer <nathan> thine Holy One <chaciyd> to see <ra'ah> corruption <shachath>.
When Jesus died, his soul stay in hell, as Jesus went there 3 days and 3 nights.
Correct – only the animal Jesus died upon the cross – life lives – and Christ continued

When humans die:
Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Did the breath? Here the HS, leave Jesus when He died ?
OK WORD MAN – breath as in breathing air vrs the breath of God

When the animal dies – everything flesh dies – biological brain with its mind and consciousness
Everything we know about being a plumber or working IT falls away – no longer even relevant

Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth?
only the animal Jesus died upon the cross – life lives – and Christ continued
we are made in the image of God – upon mortasl death of the animal – spirit lives on – life lives
Our spirit / soul is released back into the spirit world – the invisible heavens

Ps 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Yes
Jesus Christ walked in spiritual communion with the Father 24/7
But – the Father or the HS could not / did not experience the physical death
For the first time in the life of Jesus – that spiritual communion was broken
Then
Mr 15:37 And <de> Jesus <Iesous> cried <aphiemi> with a loud <megas> voice <phone>, and gave up the ghost <ekpneo>.
Christ – gave up His Spirit – voluntarily – no one took it
And the animal man - Jesus stopped breathing.

Notice the soul, also went to hell with the body, when Jesus died.
I believe that the body was in the Tomb – no need for a 3D physical body in the heavens
Notice – life lives – the spirit of Christ kept on working on His mission

Pr 6:32 But whoso committeth adultery <na'aph> with a woman <'ishshah> lacketh <chacer> understanding <leb>: he that doeth <`asah> it destroyeth <shachath> his own soul <nephesh>.
Why is adultery bad for the soul?
While committing adultery – mental or physical – you are not choosing to Seek God – you are not choosing to mitzvah – and the only other choice = chata

Pr 8:36 But he that sinneth <chata'> against me wrongeth <chamac> his own soul <nephesh>: all they that hate <sane'> me love <'ahab> death <maveth>.

Pro 8:35 For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from Adonai.
Pro 8:36 But whoever fails to find me harms his life—all who hate me love death.”

Correct – this is what God told Adam – anyone failing to find God (repent) – will experience the death of spirit/soul – sounds like harm to me

Pr 21:10 ¶ The soul <nephesh> of the wicked <rasha`> desireth <'avah> evil <ra`>:
THis opposes the verse that says God creates RA.
Scripture is not contradictory
WHAT – you make things up – this verse says nothing about who the creator of ra is
It only speaks to those that desire it

God allows CHAY in souls normally, but if the wicked person seeks RA, GOD has to create that which GOD would not normally wish.
WHAT – so God has to go out and create it against His Will - rediculas

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat <nakah> him with the rod <shebet>, and shalt deliver <natsal> his soul <nephesh> from hell <sh@'owl>.
ANother verse that says our souls eventually go to hell, if we do not seek salvation.
DUH

Isa 55:3 Incline <natah> your ear <'ozen>, and come <yalak> unto me: hear <shama`>, and your soul <nephesh> shall live <chayah>;
John 3:16 - agreed

The very second Adam ate of the fruit from the tree of tov and RA, the RA came flooding into Adam for the first time,
You have tried this argument before and it is so ridicules – your ideas make no sense in any language

God gave Adam the Free Will to choose between yester tov and nothing – your Adam has only one choice
But then AFTER Adam chooses yester ra – yester ra came flooding into him

The very second Adam ate of the fruit from the tree of tov and RA, the RA came flooding into Adam for the first time, and all of creation as well
Sorry Robert – scripture says only to man – by one man all men are sinners – no more

Where did this RA come from? From GOD creating the RA. Not something GOD would normally do, but Adam chose sin, so GOD creates a world allowing sin to exist.
OH Now your God has to create ra because Adam sinned –
NO ONE FORCES GOD TO DO ANYTHING - MAN OR YOUR SATAN
My God does not play defense – because your satan forces Him to
Blasphemy

Without GOD nothing would exist, not even a world that GOD does not like, but hates.
So now your God hates His own creation – what ever happened to Fell Goodism

[Deleted]

You write really well Dave, we have so much in agreement,

except for one thing at the end

I get the impression you think God sees sinning as a part of His will, even His absolute will.
Another aspect of this is, you think GOD can naturally deal with RA as a natural thing under His will.

Whereas I see it differently

I see missing God by definition a choice that opposes God, and for this choice to even exist, God must sadly create the RA and the world of RA, so the sinner and his sinning can safely exist in this world of RA. I say safely, because normally since GOD cannot tolerate any ra or sin affects of ra, such things would immediately cease to exist. And for a sinner to even be allowed to exist, God's mercy is shown, something never seen before, because normally RA and sin doesn't exist. Everything is perfect.

You say

NO ONE FORCES GOD TO DO ANYTHING - MAN OR YOUR SATAN

What you are saying GOD cannot have creatures OPPOSING GOD.

Think about what you have written. So SIN cannot OPPOSE GOD, just as HATE cannot oppose GOD,
and murder cannot OPPOSE GOD, because GOD in my eyes is all about living, not dying.

You imagine darkness is a natural part of GOD, there are several Hebrew words for dark, and the choshek kind of darkness only exists because of sin. Some sinner had sinned long before earth was created.

But you say this choshek is just a natural negative aspect of GOD. God cannot have positive and negative aspects to God, GOD can only be absolutely perfect and flawless and all things in His character is always only positive.

When God created creation around the earth, there was sinning already on earth, hence it was choshek and void, and full of sinning angels already sent there.

Before we can even begin discussing stuff about GOD, we need to agree what kind of GOD do we have?

My GOD is totally perfect, totally sinless morally, and without RA. You cannot have GOD dealing with friction inside HIM, or resistance, or inductance, or entropy. These things are the result of sin, and came from Adam missing God in His life.

How else do you explain the process of dying and death and the second death, unless you talk of RA.
The Hebrew mentions muwth muwth twice, there are two deaths in Scripture. The first death is a sleep, as a result of the decay processes that eventually make your medium leave you. The second death is eternally the permanent separation of you from GOD, so then you would cease to exist.

The first death comes from the RA accumulating in you, until your machinery with the medium, eventually reaches a natural law of collapse, and you stop breathing. The medium leaves you and returns to God, and you fall into the sleep of mortal death. This affect is caused by RA, the fruit of sin.

You cannot explain the first death in no other way, it is simply all the negative aspects of natural law, mutations, damaged DNA code, radiation, friction and thermodynamics all take there toll on you.

Many think sin is only moral, but it also physical in its affects. Basically when Adam sinned He lost His perfection, and immediately things changed.

So if a person decides to sin, how does GOD deal with this?

Another question so simple to do, can a umbra shadow ever exist under a world of super floodlight brightness? The answer is no.

You cannot make a umbra shadow under super bright light, only preumbra shadows.

So when a person decides to sin, what does GOD do? God makes His light less bright. You can switch to a less bright light, and suddenly the same person makes two shadows. A simple experiment you can do. When does the umbra shadow come from? From God? no, from you? no, from the relationship? yes.

I would say GOD engineers the RA, so your sinning is observable. And if you move towards the light of of God the umbra shadow goes away. Simply saved by changing your relationship to God. Move away from GOD and your umbra shadows return.

So somethings GOD does, GOD is not very happy to do, but He loves sinners, and hates the sinning, so we have a complex God full of love and mercy.

But you simply say NO SINNER FORCES GOD to do ANYTHING.

Really?

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
(KJV)

If the new heaven and new earth is seven fold brighter than our earth is getting now, explain the sevenfold less brightness of GOD than, now our earth is full of some sinning?

The simple shadow experiment explains this easily. And also shows sinners how sins are removed easily.
And how Scripture speaks of GOD as light. See 1 John. spiritualsprings.org/ss-759.htm

This study speaks of a sin-offering NOT unto death.

Will God always be merciful to sin a second time? NO
Should a sinner ever think to do missing again, He would simply cease to exist. No more mercy.
Sort of does away with free will to choose doesn't it? Hmm? We ponder hard questions.

Imagine a world without friction, no heat losses, no disorder, no dust wandering around. No moral sins.

Where metals are perfectly crystal, and shine like diamonds.

Before you mock the view I have, consider it as a possibility. Is GOD able to do all things perfectly or not? If this is yes, why do we have dysfunction?

The tree of life was not called dysfunction. It was only every functional.

Only the other tree had two opposing descriptions.

Therefore the utopia of perfection, as living implies, that everything was perfect. Is this idea even possible? Why not?

But your Gnostic writings speak of GOD creating a flawed world for Adam, even though darkness was upon earth already from sinning angels. Not sure how this would work, but obviously GOD can create anything He wants, and a utopia world of perfection, despite some dimension already in sin, ra and darkness.

"the other tree had two opposing descriptions." so must be wrought into being by some Being who became the father of sinning. Which the Hebrew terms "hey-satan" the opposer.

SHalom

[Dave]

I get the impression you think God sees sinning as a part of His will, even His absolute will.
Hmmmm?
God loves man so much that he gave man the free Will to leave God
Does God want man to leave God and sin in this world of sin?
The story of the Prodigal Son
Not all sons leave the father – but those who do – leave God in heaven and enter this 3D physical world – are all trapped by the yestrer ra of physical life – self – self-preservation instinct that come with the animal side of man
If God gave man Free Will – God allows man to leave and enter this world
Those who return to God as the Prodigal Son are rewarded more than the Son that stayed home

The Jewish question is why is he loved rewarded more
2 – Answers
The First is the simple answer – because man chose God by his own Free Will
The Prodigal Son does not love father because he has to – but realizes the Fathers’s love for him and returns that love back to God
The complex answer is that man came into this world on a mission to witness God’s Glory
Does the spirit of man volunteers for this assignment because he wants to – or is it assigned and we are sent because he has to

Another aspect of this is, you think GOD can naturally deal with RA as a natural thing under His will.
YES! In nature ra is a natural thing – and a full part of the birth/growth/ reproduce after your own kind/ and death cycle of life – that demonstrates to all men who look – Intelligent Design

You say
NO ONE FORCES GOD TO DO ANYTHING - MAN OR YOUR SATAN
What you are saying GOD cannot have creatures OPPOSING GOD.
No other creature in all of God’s creation can force a change to the Will of God – Correct

Job 23:13 He is unchangeable, and who can change Him? Whatever His soul desires, He does.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Job either declares His unique sovereignty or His unchangeable purpose
No other creature in all of God’s creation can force a change to the Will of God – Correct

Think about what you have written.
So SIN cannot OPPOSE GOD,
Is God harmed by you sin – no – only you are
just as HATE cannot oppose GOD,
You can hate God all you want – will it cause God to change in anyway
and murder cannot OPPOSE GOD,
Murder – indicate an element of premeditation – and is a violation of the 10 Commandment given to man
Nowhere does God ever tell man it is a sin to kill – as in being in Israel’s army

You imagine darkness is a natural part of GOD,
there are several Hebrew words for dark, and the choshek kind of darkness only exists because of sin.
– the darkness was created to house the archon – to sequester them into a different realm than the throne of God – as a result of them being selfish and arrogant
Some sinner had sinned long before earth was created.
YET you claim that death entered the world after Adam sinned – how could youtr cherib chata sin before sin entered the world – it is your doctrine

But you say this choshek is just a natural negative aspect of GOD. God cannot have positive and negative aspects to God, GOD can only be absolutely perfect and flawless and all things in His character is always only positive.
So you continue to deny scripture saying that ra was created by God
You God only does positive things – no ra
Except condemning all mankind to mortal death – except for killing and entire planet of people – except killing two large cities of men – or sending out a fire to consume 250 men because they were rude
You invoke Feel Good Christianity – but it is a flawed perception of reality

When God created creation around the earth, there was sinning already on earth, hence it was choshek and void, and full of sinning angels already sent there.
Yet is is the sin from Adam that allowed them to exist
Because of Adam creation fell and vegetarian sharks could finally do their assigned role
Now you have another origin of you sin – long before Adam
Please make up your mind – you go back and forth – like it doesn’t really matter

Before we can even begin discussing stuff about GOD, we need to agree what kind of GOD do we have?
My GOD is totally perfect, totally sinless morally, and without RA. You cannot have GOD dealing with friction inside HIM, or resistance, or inductance, or entropy. These things are the result of sin, and came from Adam missing God in His life.

There you see – you God only created ½ of creation and everything else is the results of Adams sin
But you just argued that the your sinning angels sinned long before Adam
Please make up your mind – you go back and forth – like it doesn’t really matter

The first death comes from the RA accumulating in you, until your machinery with the medium, eventually reaches a natural law of collapse, and you stop breathing. The medium leaves you and returns to God, and you fall into the sleep of mortal death. This affect is caused by RA, the fruit of sin.

So in your creation all life forms are sinners – birds – dogs – cows that are all sinners and the accumulation of their sin causes their physical death

You cannot explain the first death in no other way,
Or
Job 14:5 Since his days are determined, the number of his months is with You, You have set his limits, which he cannot exceed.
Everything comes with a preset life span
No matter how much or how less sin a man has – he will never live beyond 120 years

But your Gnostic writings speak of GOD creating a flawed world for Adam, even though darkness was upon earth already from sinning angels.
I have no idea what you are trying to mean
The world Adam and Eve entered was the domain of the archon – and had been for a long time
So in you view – a world full of archon – (or your sinning angels) is perfect
But when Adam and Eve enter it – suddenly you think I say it is a flawed world
Please explain to me how your world full of sinning angels is a perfect world for Adam to enter

The only way it can be perfect in God’s view – is if God wanted it that way
The archon were given the domain of physical creation in gen 1:2
And God said it was tov six times after that

[Deleted]

Happy Sabbath Dave

D" No other creature in all of God’s creation can force a change to the Will of God – Correct
R I can agree with this, but does GOD have creatures that can oppose Him?

Is not a creature sinning, opposing GOD?

I agree the sinning does not cause God to change His will, but nevertheless the sinner has chosen to disobey God, and so the sinner is now opposing God.
We have a Hebrew word for this kind of relationship, the verb satan means to oppose.
Do you agree with these statements?

We you go into a tennis match, both players are opposing each other, and hence both are termed opposers, as they battle out the match, they are adversaries to each other.

Hence God was termed an opposer to Baalim, because Baalim was a prophet who sins, rather than a true prophet who walks with God without sinning.

Later Baalim told others how to get Israel to fall from grace to wickedness and so opposed Israel getting them to sin. This is how the Hebrew word satan-verb works. I agree with you the term Catholic edit, has given a new meaning to the hey-satan-noun, which is not really correct. The noun form refers to a complete opposer, a creature who now longer seeks GOD, and has their conscience seared, so they are sinning creatures always.

In all you discourse with me, the most alarming is that GOD created Yaboath the Beast, the first Archon as a sinning creature. This is NOT how sinning works. The term means to be found missing God is a relationship, the creature chooses to sin against God, disobey God, a choice to disobey. You cannot use the term to create a creature robotically doing ra. Such a term violates the meaning of sin for humans, placing a different meaning for archons, and a different meaning for humans. This violates the Biblical meaning of words, and suggests words have different meanings for different creatures.


D" So you continue to deny scripture saying that ra was created by God
You God only does positive things – no ra
R God only creates RA because of the sin problem. Show me a verse creating RA during normal creation? You have assumed this. No such text.


Ge 1:4 And God <'elohiym> saw <ra'ah> <'eth> the light <'owr>, that <kiy> it was good <towb>: and God <'elohiym> divided <badal> <beyn> the light <'owr> from <beyn> the darkness <choshek>.

The light was declared good, but not the darkness? Darkness is an element of RA? I tend to see Creation of Man, was done to deal with the universal SIN problem, hence the inclusion of sinning angels and their RA, with our Creation.


To me, God is perfect, flawless. Creating friction would be a massive headache to GOD, dealing with massive losses of His own powers every day. Much easier to change the laws and constants of the universe to some other 120 decimal value and have no friction forces. Can't GOD do this? Must you limit God with your ideas of a flawed nature?

D" Except condemning all mankind to mortal death – except for killing and entire planet of people – except killing two large cities of men – or sending out a fire to consume 250 men because they were rude
R So I do not pose to understand all things. Have you got a better answer? No better than mine. God does a strange act the KJV says. Paul say do you have a different GOD to follow?

I leave such matters alone Dave. What is pure and holy think of these things, torah says.

As I said before, if God is the source of living, than ending living is not really violating the command no murder. If you sin too much you reach your own ending of life. God just obeys your will, and switches off your breath of His powers. That is fair I find.

D" Please make up your mind – you go back and forth – like it doesn’t really matter
R Dave, sin originally originated long before Adam sinned, when a bright angel sinned, causing other angels to sin with him, the war in heaven idea, you also do not like.

Man was created in the midst of this sinning angels conflict, for a reason, to resolve the sin problem. However the sinning angels got Adam to sin with them. This however did not stop GOD's plans to solve the sin problem, as you say God knows all things, and plans all things, so no sinning creature can outsmart God or God's will. However we are in a war dealing with a sin problem.

D' There you see – you God only created ½ of creation and everything else is the results of Adams sin

Actually GOD has a beautiful world planned even during sin and chaos. Really beautiful.
Friction, and entropy and encompasses and viruses really do work in helping the rapid spoiling of SIN, and the fruit of RA from that SIN. I find GOD clever to create a world of sin, that He never wanted to come into being, but He allowed in its design clever design features to allow a sinful world to run, with beauty and grace. Now that is a loving GOD.

Snow for example is a prime example. Not random chaos. But beauty, in the design seen only in a sinning world. Rain drops another example, designed only for a sinning world. Many examples of good design by GOD despite the RA coming in from Adam's sin.

Nothing like you said Dave. God designed a 120 decimal constant with both perfection and ra in mind, should Adam decide which universe he wanted. Clever design, on God's part.



D' So in your creation all life forms are sinners – birds – dogs – cows that are all sinners and the accumulation of their sin causes their physical death
R Hmm? A hard question Dave. Adam was a Prince of our Creation. That means He was in charge of all living things, even the atoms how their quantum responds to God.

Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

These verses suggest Adam was a Prince over Creation, but now Jesus is our Prince over sinners and creation, Jesus got back the crown over ruling of earth, from the opposing ruler of earth.

Hence why Jesus is called a second Adam.



D" Please explain to me how your world full of sinning angels is a perfect world for Adam to enter
R Hmm? A another hard question Dave.

I agree, the Bible does not write things to easy, and leaving us in confusion.

If the Creation was declared very good, why was darkness in it, and sinning angels in it, these are NOT very good, but RA elements. I agree Dave, my view has problems too.

Why does the torah hide the origin of SIN and GOD's dealing with SIN?

Or do we adopt your view and say GOD designed RA and sinning archons intentionally?

Mt 13:10 Why is the Torah speaking thou unto them in parables?

Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mt 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Where does this come from?

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Isa 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.(KJV)

And how is the parables of the torah unravelled?

Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

How does the word speak to us?

Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Isa 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD,

If you fix your attention more on Jesus, His words will speak to you,

Gnostic words are not words I feel penned by Jesus, but the torah teachings were. The torah says so:

Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law (torah), or no.

Shalom

[Dave]

First you say - D" No other creature in all of God’s creation can force a change to the Will of God – Correct
Then you say – D" So you continue to deny scripture saying that ra was created by God
Your God only does positive things – no ra
R God only creates RA because of the sin problem. Show me a verse creating RA during normal creation? You have assumed this. No such text.
According to you – no one can change God – but God must change His Will and Plan in reaction to an angel or man sinning
Double speak – conflicting – not consistent al all

R … does GOD have creatures that can oppose Him?
Scripture says – NO
Isa 14:24 Adonai Tzva’ot has sworn, saying: “Surely, as I thought it, so it will be. As I have purposed, so it will stand.
Isa 14:27 For Adonai-Tzva’ot has purposed, so who will annul it? Since His hand is stretched out, who will turn it back?

H6565 – פָּרַר - that is, to violate, frustrate, disannul, disappoint, dissolve, divide, make of none effect, fail, frustrate, bring (come) to nought, X utterly, make void.

H7725 – שׁוּב - A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) generally to retreat; averse, bring convert, requite, reverse, slide back, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.

No Robert not only can no one oppose God – thy can’t even frustrate God
WHY – because everything is purposed by God
Satan job is the prosecutor – that is his function – his job is to identify those who fail the contest – identify those who do not belong in heaven – identify those who are not the Prodigal Son – identify those who do not love God with all their heart, mind, and soul

Is not a creature sinning, opposing GOD? – no impossible
Your satan is an employee of God doing an assigned function
Only you believe it a sin to obey God
Because you confuse sin as something bad – as something ra – I do not
Sin is only the choice not to seek God – not to recognize God

I agree the sinning does not cause God to change His will, but nevertheless the sinner has chosen to disobey God, and so the sinner is now opposing God.
If you say so – but again – your doctrine must be superior to scripture in your mind
I say – if a sinner chooses not to follow God – He is only opposing himself – he is harming himself – the man making that sin choice is only hurting himself - not God

We have a Hebrew word for this kind of relationship, the verb satan means to oppose.
Do you agree with these statements?
Actually – every other Hebrew Commentary says that sata is the prosecutor and accuser
Because his job is to accuse / prosecute man’s worthiness for salvation
By definition – Jewish Encyclopedia / Catholic Encyclopedia / Gnostic word use

You are the only guy I know that demand the opposer title and then go around claiming that satan opposes everything of God

We you go into a tennis match, both players are opposing each other, and hence both are termed opposers, as they battle out the match, they are adversaries to each other.
Correct – and according to you they both oppose God because that is your definition of the opposer

Hence God was termed an opposer to Baalim, because Baalim was a prophet who sins, rather than a true prophet who walks with God without sinning.
Correct – in this case GOD HIMSELF is the satan
Is God your cherub chata – Does God oppose God - and according to you satan is always a sinner - you insult God if you think so

In all you discourse with me, the most alarming is that GOD created Yaboath the Beast, the first Archon as a sinning creature.
This is your doctrine – not mine
God made the Archon by the left hand (HS) – it was a different creation than the angels
Because some matter was used – when that archon woke up – his first thought was of self
It says nothing about choosing – it says he woke up and his thoughts were of self

Just like a cow – or an ant – or a slug – or a worm – or a single cell organism
100% self

This is NOT how sinning works. The term means to be found missing God is a relationship, the creature chooses to sin against God, disobey God, a choice to disobey.
Please provide scripture that the archon disobeyed God
God said – let there be archon – and there was archon
God said let there be cows – and there were cows
Do cows choose to be only self – I say they were made that way
Again – it is God’s design – God’s Plan – no one can change God’s Plan / Will

D" Please make up your mind – you go back and forth – like it doesn’t really matter
R Dave, sin originally originated long before Adam sinned, when a bright angel sinned, causing other angels to sin with him, the war in heaven idea, you also do not like.

YOUR WAR – so sick of hearing about your war that God is unable to win
Your satan is so strong and your God is so weak that a created angels can hold God at bay with a war
So in Rev 20 – when satan / Beast/ Devil/ and the false prophets are thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second death
Please give me some idea of how long the Beast and your satan can hold out against God?
How long has it been since Gen 1:2 - 6000 years or 16 Billion – still you have a war raging in heaven
If you opened the doors of heaven and looked in all you and the SDA would see is conflict / Controversy
This is the next most stupid thing you say

When you pray - Mat 6:10 ... Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 
You want a war on earth because there is a war in heaven - sick
I pray - let God's Plan play out just as He Willed it
In heaven Gen 1:1 - there was dome darkness upon God's creation - Gen 1:2 - and God Fixed everything by the introduction of the LIGHT / salvation - and it is TOV

The bustle in Rev 20 – takes my God one word – one command – God said it – and it was done
Therefore the bustle that took place in Gen 1:2 only took one word – one command – and it was over
In my reality – God is absolute and created beings are next to nothing in His presence
You diminish God while empowering your satan god to a position of strong authority
Your satan must be so proud of you for thinking this – his influence upon the Roman Edit is so obvious

The TRUTH - God made it all - and purposed everything - some of what God purposed looks like a mystery to man - Paul / agl says clearily Co 1:16 God made the (the multiple opposing forces of Eph 6:12) by Him for Him

How do the Jews explain it to themselves - since there is only one string authority (God) the Good stuff is by the Right Hand of God - and the mystery is by the Left Hand of God - and all by His purpose - His Will - His Plan

You explain it as a Great Controversy between two strong authorities - one a strong authority of Love only (Feel Good - tov) and an opposing strong authority named satan that is only evil (ra) - satan who changes God creation - alters God's Plan - and can stand against God's Will - including dividing God's Kingdom against itself
Without the contamination by the Roman Edit - no Torah reader / believer / Jew / Messianic Jew / or Nag Hammadi Gnostic would ever accept your docrtine as anything other than an insult upon the One True Strong Authority

Man was created in the midst of this sinning angels conflict, for a reason, to resolve the sin problem. However the sinning angels got Adam to sin with them. This however did not stop GOD's plans to solve the sin problem, as you say God knows all things, and plans all things, so no sinning creature can outsmart God or God's will. However we are in a war dealing with a sin problem.
For so long you argue that Feel Good God cannot make sinning creatures that is against God's royal rules - creatures changed afterward by surprise and God had to change His design
So now you say God creates sinning creatures by design
God knew what Adam and Eve would do and He made them anyway
God knew the archon would be selfish and He made them anyway (by the left hand)
God knew you would sin – and He made your spirit anyway
So your God makes sinning creatures

However we are in a war dealing with a sin problem.
YES! – it is between man and himself – (yester tov vrs yester ra) an inner struggel
Between man and the world of the archon – Gen 3:15 = The world's appeal to your own yester ra
It has nothing to do with satan (noun) being a loyal servant of God
The truth is - each and every being - God - angels from the Right or the Left (archon) - or man (Peter) is a satan (verb) when they are perfoming the function / purpose of satan

Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(TLV) …. Adam, who is a pattern of the One to come.
Why is Adam the pattern / figure of Christ
Is it because Christ came from God – then sinned and died a mortal death and is in the grave awaiting resurrection – NO
It is because Christ came from God – souljourned here and witnessed God’s Glory - then He returned to God – only to be resurrected proving that LIFE LIVES – proving that spirit is not biological that rots in the grave – rather spirit is life and it continues on in the service of the Lord

God made man in the image of God/Christ/HS not animals

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All men die – correct a mortal death – but Christ is the Divine Pardon
Eternal life is not a gift you receive at the end
We are created with eternal life – because were are not mortal we are spirit
After mortal death – our eternal spirit continues, but with a death sentence it earned wile mortal
Christ – is the DIVINE PARDON from our own self-imposes death sentence
So that our eternal life can continue
Eternal life is not the Gift /Reward – the Divine Pardon is the true gift / Reward

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

YES! – Adam is a living soul – and The Promise of Christ is the (quickening of the spirit – very old term)
The quickening is to be caught up in the spirit
Christ promises – to all who belive in Him that He will send the Comforter to teach our spirt from the inside – spirit to spirit

Joh 3:3 Yeshua answered him, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Joh 3:5 Yeshua answered, “Amen, amen I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
How does the word speak to us?
DUH – by the right hand of instruction and salvation
And by the left hand of mystery
But you deny this right and left hand thing – the SDA do not teach it – so scripture here can be overlooked and ignored – or just denied

Gnostic words are not words I feel penned by Jesus,
DUH – once again let me say – the authors of the Nag Hammadi are the same men that authored the agl
John, James, Peter, Phillip, Thomas, and Paul – all disciples that knew Jesus Christ personally – who were taught by Jesus Christ personally – both before and after the Resurrection

These men are obvious liars according to you and everything they write must be trash
Gospel of John letters of Paul, James, and John – even revelation was penned by John who is a Nag Hammadi heritic

I do not agree with you at all
Commentary by these authors mean more to me that the Commentaries of Arthur Clark – Joseph Smith, or Ellen White – all so far removed from the source