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Post by Dave on May 30, 2020 5:11:41 GMT -5
Rob replies: " I didn't say devil is a noun, I said devil is not a Being word, the word is a functional descriptor of a being. Which you correctly see acting like a verb.
So now you are saying there is no devil or beast - it is just satan+satan+satan
So King Tyre visited the Garden of Eden, walked among the fiery stones of GOD, and was perfect as GOD created Him, until iniquity was found in Him.
Do you know who the King of Tyre is? He built Solomon’s Temple He sent the architects and tradesmen along with the cedars The King of Tyre was Israel best friend - until he turn his back You should really read the chapter and not just the verse
Dave writes: "And then you invoke the Robert bias Of course 5000 years of Judaism is incorrect about what their own theology is
Scripture warns about following traditions and precepts of men, So this means all Judaism is wrong I suppose Ellen White’s words are more valuable than the Torah Because so far - you keep telling me that the Torah or Tanak means something different The Torah says - God test man - yet you doubt this
I appreciate your view though. Sorry I don't trust man and what man writes. Scripture says it was written as men were moved by the Holy Spirit, so this makes the words special, even rare cases like the one context of cherub chata. So why do you deny such a large section of it
Dave asks: "You answer – why did God send the serpent onto Eve? Rob replies: When this cherub sinned, and a war in heaven came into the universe, the chief fallen angel, claimed God the Father was unjust, a dictator. So you satan is master of the universe - and all creation is now living satan’s will for creation not God’s will
Now you answer mine: Why does GOD allow archons to come into being? just to allow the sum of chaos to come? This suggests GOD creates both good and bad? What kind of god is this?
One that made both the TOV and the RA - as scripture says One that test man - as scripture says But one that doesn't do the testing Himself - as scripture says Therefore one that has other beings do the testing for Him - as scripture says One that has a plan for the multi-verse that is far about anything man can ever understand
This is so easy
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 17:03:21 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
Dave writes: "Why - did God send the serpent unto Eve, if not to test her?
So we can expect archons again testing us in the new heavens and the new earth, right?
Rob writes: "Just robotic servants. angels are good. archons are bad. Dave writes: YES! - finally your starting to get it
Not much point talking to either good angels, or bad archons, if there don't have free will, their comments are totally programmed aren't they? in the new heavens and new earth....??
Rob writes: SO god is a dictator of robotic good and bad servants? Why give humans free will?
Dave writes: "Every Christian sermon I have heard about this says - God created us for our relationship angels praise God because that is their nature - it is what they were created as and for archon do not praise Gods - instead they test creation - it is what they were created as and for Man was created with the choice which makes the relationship between man and God special Man was created to love God with their hearts and souls - makes that love valuable - genuine
"Great, so in the new heavens and the new earth, I can look forward to talking to archons still, they continue to test us? why bother have them? The good angel continue with their one sided praise? why bother have them, they don't understand sinning. nor do archons understand. Only humans do, and Jesus.
Have you considered is the new heavens and new earth, different to the older one before Adam sinned? Or the same?
Your logic is flawed...
If a cherub really did sin, and other angels sinned with him, while other angels did not sin, we have much in common when we humans get there to freely talk about.
Jesus also know sin and not it's testing, but the fallen angels tempting, remember GOD does not tempt us with Ra, James says. A verse you brush aside, O a department does that? Who has authority over this department? God does. Your logic is flawed.
SO in the new heaven and new earth, what will be there? friction, darkness, cold, sin, archons and angels that only program praise? If you say the new heaven is different from the one we currently have, I would ask you, why change it? What's wrong with the old one?
I proclaim the one before Adam sinned is the same as the one we get after sin is over. The sinning of mankind caused the universe we now know to change, This does NOT require a second Creator, as you claim. Jesus create a universe that could change either way. Finely tuned science says.
Shalom my friend.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 31, 2020 9:04:38 GMT -5
Dear Robert The more desperate you become to defend the Catholic view the father from basic scripture you drift. WHAT? – I ask you to spell your first name and you answer that bird can’t swim underwater – WHAT? If you are referring to Rev 21 and 22 – The Beast, satan, and the false prophet have already been thrown into the Lake of Fire – which is the second death You tell me – why did God create angels? – to tend to creation / to serve God Do they understand sinning ? I have no Idea – it is not their nature to sin Do the archon understand? – I have no idea – it is not their nature to be compassionate Do humans understand – YES! – because we are the creatures that have the free will to choose This is why we will end up judging the angels This is why the angels are jealous of us Angels will never hang around the water cooler with you discussing the weather Angels deliver messages from the Lord – they impart information / instruction NOW – why in the world would any Christian even consider speaking to an archon?Angels and archon are not other guys from work Angels will never hang around the water cooler with you discussing the weather You have some imagination – does it help a serious study of scripture Hmmmm? Choshek, the Beast, satan, false prophets Rev 21 and 22 speak of a place DIFFERENT world than the that existed for Adam The world Adam lived in contained choshek, the Beast, satan, and a false prophet (Serpent) The world of Rev 21 and 22 does not I hang my hat on this verseGod test you – YES! 100% Torah God doesn’t do it Himself – YES! 100% agl - after all Jesus was 100% human for about 30 years Therefore – someone else does it for GOD – Gnostics call them archon Let’s test you logic The sinning of EVE (Female) happened in Gen 3 Choshek entered the heavens in Gen 2 The Tanak tells us that before man – God’s was angered and destroyed all the cities The serpent testing Eve existed Oops! – flawed logic You can call Him a dictator if you choose – personally it sounds disrespectful God the one true Creator is in absolute control of the creation He made for Him Omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient Why give Humans free Will – to see if they Love the Lord with all their heart and soul Those that do – get a place in the New Earth and Heavens of Rev 21 and 22 Those that don’t end in Rev 20 – at the second death – cease to continue
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 16:52:20 GMT -5
So if everything about this current universe ends in the second death, no longer exists, and we get a brand new universe without archons and sin.
SO we have listed
Rob's theory Dave theory
Universe A Universe B
Sin causes universe B God causes universe B
Universe B comes to end Universe B comes to an end
Universe A again Your universe becomes A for first time??
There are significant differences in our models. Your model does not have sin as an origin, nor a universe without dysfunction in it. Yet you admit the dysfunctional aspect of creation are finally removed. Why have them in the first place?
My model has a universe without dysfunction in it, some alluding to dysfunction, yes, because an angel had began to be sinning long before creation, taking other angels with him. So sin entered the universe for the first time.
Sin also enters man's universe, so GOD allows the universe to change (it was designed with such changes in mind, should sin come)
Finally sin is done away, and the original universe is restored.
In your model the FINAL universe HAS NO dysfunction in it, this is the first time such a universe exists??? And your reason for removing dysfunction is ?
You might say "Testing" is finite in time, limit to man choosing GOD, than the testing is over. OK, I get that, but why have testing in the first place? To develop free will choice. OK So Man is the only beings with free will choice. I guess that theory can work. The archons are designed simply to develop our free wills, so we choose GOD or not choose GOD. The opponent only opposes Man and his free will to choose. Sounds OK. A nice theory of faith.
In your model "Relationship" is created only for man. Archons and good angels have programmed relationships. Angels do good, archons do bad. Only man has free will relationships. Why limit love functions to one creature? Aren't angels creatures? Why not have angels created with free will relationships too?
Your model has the idea GOD wanted to create free will creatures for the first time ever, so love could be developed functionally.
SO the other created beings do not have this love function? Good angels are programmed to do only what they can do? Your introducing the idea that GOD is not always a GOD of love, but creates creatures for other purposes as well?
I don't see in your model a GOD of love all the time, with creating creatures? Take for instance earth creatures like trees and animals? do they have love functions? I would have to say yes, but you might say no.
Science is learning trees communicate if an axeman cuts one tree down, trees kilometres away also signal pain response. Plants are shown to have memory. Animals like Alex the parrot can talk with intelligence like a 4 yr old child. Are these not examples of creatures with love limited functions?
Another difference in our models, is you don't have a BEING making SIN over humans, there is no KING over humans to make them SIN so the kingdom of sin continues. You don't really have an origin of sin at all. Maybe a SIN-RULER is not required in your model. So when I miss daily, my missing is caused by my own propensities causing me to miss relationship with GOD, maybe also helped by archons speaking in my ear. Maybe the CHIEF-ARCHON is a KING of SIN? And the good angel doing a bad job of opposing you, helps you to get back to choosing GOD.
You have presented this theory for a long time, and the aspects of it, sound OK. I have explored all the possibilities over our months together.
One question: Why does GOD have to test relationships based on love? If GOD doesn't test you in the new universe, why did GOD allow testing in the older universe? A relationship is defined as LOVE or not LOVE. You don't have a being who does NOT_LOVE? Only a created archon by GOD for this testing purpose. Such a created design is not based on love, is it? It's a programmed creation to test love. But love is never meant to be tested?
You don't comment upon patting the dog and whacking the dog on the head? Try it some day. Will the dog continue to love you? Abuse is a being who loves than hates, who loves and than hates. It's confusion.
I don't see a need for testing creatures who love. You agree its not there in the new universe, so why create the need in the old universe?
You might say GOD intentionally created bad propensities in the DNA so humans naturally miss GOD? Isn't this an imperfect created creature?
Not meaning to upset you Dave. Sorry if I have. But I do explore all stones of ponder, as we ponder this confusion together. Shalom
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Post by Dave on May 31, 2020 20:26:05 GMT -5
My model has a universe without dysfunction in it, some alluding to dysfunction, yes, because an angel had began to be sinning long before creation, taking other angels with him. So sin entered the universe for the first time.Gen 1:1 creation – Gen 1:2 choshek Correction – you view has choshek in it from the very second verse Finally sin is done away, and the original universe is restored.Where do you get the “restored” idea – do you have a verse? In your model the FINAL universe HAS NO dysfunction in it, And your reason for removing dysfunction is ?I’ll play – the dysfunction is removed because those responsible for promoting the dysfunction at in the Lake of Fire – Beast, satan, and false prophet So Man is the only beings with free will choice.100% Jewish and Gnostic In your model "Relationship" is created only for man. Archons and good angels have programmed relationships. Angels do good, archons do bad. Only man has free will relationships. Why limit love functions to one creature? Ask God why I create the TOV and the RA, I do all these things I create the wicked even for the end of days Ask God why he dose these things – I cannot tell you the mind of God All I can do is study the evidence He makes available to us Aren't angels creatures? Why not have angels created with free will relationships too?Again - I cannot tell you the mind of God Why did God make a spot right between your shoulder blades that itches, but you cannot reach it with either hand – arrrg! – I was always using the corners of block walls to scratch my back I heard this in a sermon (in person or on a video – I don’t remember) It is not my personal view – but it fits here God created the angels to serve and praise After a while – God found the heaves to be boring and monotonous So – God decided to spice things up – enter choshek Gen 1:2 Now God has two groups – one praises and doesn’t After a while – God found the heaves to be boring and monotonous So – God created man with choice Your model has the idea GOD wanted to create free will creatures for the first time ever, so love could be developed functionally.So love could be developed functionally – I like itSO the other created beings do not have this love function? Good angels are programmed to do only what they can do? Your introducing the idea that GOD is not always a GOD of love, but creates creatures for other purposes as well?Enoch tells us that there are many different heavenly beings with specific functions each Some tend the furnaces of the stars Some guide orbits with orbits Some guard the throne of God Some fight God’s battels – Michael There is a fun Bible Study if a cherub is a being or a vehicle that God rides upon Some deliver sensitive news about the birth of a savior – Gab-briel Some deliver messages and instruction to man Catholics has an angel named satan Jews and Gnostics have a function named satan – that is filled in many ways To have a group of beings dedicated to testing creation is not a giant leap Take for instance earth creatures like trees and animals? do they have love functions? Hmmmm? Creatures like trees, insects, slime molds, and creatures of the deep that we haven’t even seen yet – all serve a function YES! What world would we have without all these creatures fulfilling different “function” within creation Do any of these creatures have free will as man does? – NO! Do any of these creatures care if you turn to God or not? – NO! Can any of these creatures change their role / shape / allegiance to their Creator – NO! Why would an angel created for a purpose / function be any difference? Therefore an angel created for the function satan – the opponent / accuser / the tester / tempter Would be doing exactly what he was created to do – no choice – it is his function Like ants at a picnic getting into everything everywhere – doing their function – without free will to change You don't comment upon patting the dog and whacking the dog on the headI don’t comment because it is like saying the trees have emotion – men are not dogs – neither are angels YOU ANTROPHOMORPHISE THE HEAVENSAngels and archon are not men – why must you insists they act just like man does Question #1 – in your experience – would you say man is honorable and/or trustworthy? Is that your concept of – human nature / the human experience? Question #2 – do you have the same level of respect for angels? Are they a bunch of cheating bastards that would sell their own mother out for wealth and fame I don't see a need for testing creatures who love. How do you know they love you? also the meauser is - all your heart and soul Question - So all you have to do is say – “I love you Lord” - and you are done Or do you have to prove it – the Jews through obedience to the Torah – Christians through obedience to the HS Love one another as Jesus loved us – and – seek ye first the Kingdom Sounds really easy – is it easy – why isn’t it easy? Just because we love the Lord – does not mean the Contest goes away In fact – the closer to TOV we move – the Contest gets even harder satan never gave Job a thought - until God pointed him out as pious I say I love the Lord! If Islam wants to behead me – I pray I would remain composed in prayer But - I have two beautiful daughters – could I give them up as Lot did? Does my own doubt mean I am not saved or that I do not love the Lord? Another difference in our models, is you don't have a BEING making SIN over humans, there is no KING over humans to make them SIN so the kingdom of sin continues. You don't really have an origin of sin at all. Chief Archon, sar of earth, sar of Persian, other gods, powers and principalities Deny them if you choose You have presented this theory for a long time, and the aspects of it, sound OK. I have explored all the possibilities over our months together. One question: Why does GOD have to test relationships based on love?So love could be developed functionally – I like itThe parable of the prodigal son Isn’t this a common theme in literature? If you Love a thing – let it go If it returns to you – you know it was their choice If GOD doesn't test you in the new universe, why did GOD allow testing in the older universe? A relationship is defined as LOVE or not LOVE. You don't have a being who does NOT_LOVE? Only a created archon by GOD for this testing purpose. Such a created design is not based on love, is it? It's a programmed creation to test love. But love is never meant to be tested?LOVE – and Feel Good ChristianityHonestly – I don’t know how to respond to a love comment – because YOU ANTROPHOMORPHISE THE HEAVENS as do all Catholics Hanging out at the water cooler discussing the weather with angels and archon Man has free will so the angels and archon mush also be the same God’s love is like your favorite doggy Then others in the Bible Study always say If God is love than why must every Amorite die? Men, women, babies, pets, and livestock If God is love then why must so many people go to hell for eternal damnation If God is love – then why did He create both TOV and RA This is you – God can only do tov – you wouldn’t even accept that God created the ra ahl and agl truth – God created everything – nothing was made that was made by Him for Him ahl truth – God test man (actually all creation) 100% Jewish agl truth – God doesn’t do the testing Himself 100% Jewish and Christian ahl truth from Job – God uses a function called satan to do the testing for HIim and because this function even exist – choshek enters creation You might say GOD intentionally created bad propensities in the DNA so humans naturally miss GOD? Isn't this an imperfect created creature?Were are only aware of a very small percentage of our own reality and we are biologically challenged to understand it.The Psychology of Understanding – Pondering Confusion.com No matter what knowledge we accumulate through life, we are still that animal our genetic material encoded. Where does instinct come form? How about the desire to reproduce and survive? Are they not evidence of a genetic memory? Does not our genome encode these trait to us? Look at the some of the many conclusions reached by the Minnesota Twin Family Study, 'Co-twins seem to have about as good a chance of being similar to their co-twin, in terms of personality, interest and attitudes, regardless if they were raised together or apart. This leads us to believe that the similarities between twins are due to genetic relationship, not environment' (www.psych.umn.edu/psylabs/mtfs/special.htm.)
Doesn't this indicate that we, as a species, are a programmable commodity and our DNA is the program. Whether it is the end result of natural selection, or direct intervention, could there be a genetic imprint that prevents us from seeing the obvious? Call it what ever you want, it does seem that we are biologically challenged to see things as they really are.
Ponder this ancient text, dated from around 250 B.C. and written by unknown Egyptians: "Then Adam wept and said, 'O God, when we dwelt in the garden, and our hearts were lifted up, we saw the angels that sang praises in heaven, but now we do not see as we were used to do; nay, when we entered the cave, all creation became hidden from us.' Then the Lord said unto Adam, 'When thou was under subjection to Me, thou hadst a bright nature within thee, and for that reason couldst thou see things afar off. But after thy transgression thy bright nature was withdrawn from thee; and it was not left to thee to see things afar off, but only near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish.'" (Unknown author, The forgotten books of eden - the first Book of Adam and Eve, 1980, p 9, Gramercy Books, New York.)
Just recently, scientist have claimed to have mapped the human genome, yet they call 96% of our DNA structure as useless Junk DNA. Sounds a little Arrogant to me, but correlates well with the revelation that we are only aware of 4% of our own reality. I Ponder if these are the same scientist, that have told us all from early childhood that we only use 10% of our brain anyway. Not meaning to upset you Dave. Sorry if I have. No upset here – I love discussing the Lord and scripture And this forum is a God send – in person you and I would have to posture – however, on-line and 12,000 miles apart – no worries
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 14:06:52 GMT -5
Your write good answers Dave, with some good experiences too.
I will have to leave our two models there, and we will have to agree to disagree. There is not much evidence in favour of my model, in fact only two verses:
Ezekiel says cherub sinned. And Rev 12:8 says Serpent fought against Michel and his angels, a war in heaven.
You ask the question how does GOD know you love HIM?
Well you don't need to be tested, like you claim. The reason the closer we get to GOD the more we seem to be sinning, is because the Opposers hate anyone seeking relationship with GOD.
You say Job wasn't picked on by the Opposer until GOD pointed it out? I would disagree. The Opposer hates anybody seeking GOD in relationship, but if humans do seek GOD, than God begins to hedge them and protect them from the Opposer.
And since Job was already seeking GOD so much He became faultless in His Daily seeking of GOD, that GOD speaks proudly of Job's support of God to the Opposer. The Opposer fights back, and says you hedge Him, so I can't reach him anymore. Very well GOD says, I remove my love from Him a little, but not all my protection. And the Opposer begins the work the Opposer only knows, killing and destroying. But the Job, the human, does not lose His support on GOD, despite this.
What support does Job claim? Notice this is NOT testing.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Notice this aspect of salvation:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The BAD relationships are CREATED aspects from GOD.
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
The GOOD relationships are CREATED aspects from GOD.
Jesus spoke to Nicodemus He had to be daily reborn from the compassion -centre of the Holy Spirit. This process is CREATED.
How were things CREATED by Jesus our Redeemer, during CREATION?
Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth
The WORD (Father) personified by Jesus (imrah), our Redeemer spoke the WORD and the Holy Spirit empowered those words into being.
So you support HIs Words, they come into being, through His powers.
Ho 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him,
Here in the salvational steps to our Redeemer, it says take with you words, and repent daily to Jesus our Redeemer.
This process has been translated "Faith" by translators, but actually means we "support" our Redeemer, using His words, so His powers flow, when we need His support. That is how Jesus knows when we love him. When we support His words, and seek His power flowing from those words.
Notice salvation has nothing to do with testing.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
However verses like these make similes of earthly father and our heavenly Father, disciplining us. I see this more as training, the way a child should go. The torah means teachings. A Rabbi Jesus is our Teacher. He trains you as a child the way to go. Since we have fallen bodies and propensities inherited from our sinning parents before us, there is some pruning, painful processes, to endure.
You ask some hard questions, Dave.
Dave writes:"If God is love than why must every Amorite die? Men, women, babies, pets, and livestock If God is love then why must so many people go to hell for eternal damnation If God is love – then why did He create both TOV and RA
The Amorites were given 400 hundred years to develop their relationships, and all relationships were dead. Eventually no living branches come from dead branches, so one can remove them.
Love allows relationships to develop. If you choose a dead relationship with GOD, all your living probation years, with GOD, why would GOD seek to maintain a dead branch remaining connected to Him?
The BAD relationships are CREATED aspects from GOD. The GOOD relationships are CREATED aspects from GOD.
However does GOD personally do BAD relationships with you? no In the shadow experiment, bad relationships arise when you walk away from GOD who is connected still to you. This is the Creative part. The Father's light flows around the Holy Spirit, and the medium power flows over you, but you make two shadows from your relationship with GOD, one shadow the "umbra shadow" is a shadow unto eternal death, because you won't let GOD cover that shadow with His light.
In our walk closer to GOD or away from GOD, there are rulers who influence us in our daily walk. These rulers are also sinning Beings, who influence us to walk away from GOD, as they also walk away from GOD. Any being who walks away from GOD, by definition is opposing God. This peer group pressure is quite strong for some of us, we follow the crowd of sinning Beings. Broad is the road to destruction and many flow along it.
When you get closer and closer to GOD, I don't find any testing at all. Training, yes. Supporting GOD daily, yes.
When you begin your relationship journey with GOD, some trying in the fire to refine your character is necessary, so GOD does not cut and polish worthless stones.
Fall on the ROCK and be broken. Scripture weathers our pride to soil, that is where soil comes from, powdered rock. We become more humble, and seek to care for our brothers, than for self. All this takes time. Reading GOD's words takes time.
Daily we are killed of our propensities, and daily we seek the Father of lights, via our Redeem Jesus, who we support daily using His words. This is how Jesus knows we love Him, when we support His words.
James says this so well:
Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath "support", and have not works? can "support" save him?
If you speak words of power, but power does not work through you, your support is not working.
Support must have a flow of power. Otherwise it's not support. If the support, causing a flow of power, does not work, immediately, it may be because you ask too great a support (some require fasting and fervent prayer) or you ask presumption, with pride and not humility. Or maybe GOD holds off sometimes for His own reasons?
Jas 2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Not fully written correctly
Jas 2:8 ¶ If ye complete the royal ten commandment according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as GOD loves you, ye do well:
Dave says GOD has a department for this, is twisting Scripture I feel
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
GOD does not do RA, nor cause RA upon any man.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Every good gift comes from the Father, not RA, no RA shadows from the Father. If you move closer to the light source, all shadows vanish. Simple experiment.
Shalom my friend. Off to work now. The virus thing is relaxing. USA has a distraction to remove focus off virus, paid protesters??, since virus thing was nothing...
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Post by Dave on Jun 1, 2020 21:25:14 GMT -5
(My Greek says you only have one verse – but you can have it )
You have more than that – you have been raised in a Catholic culture and have been indoctrinated into a Protestant offshoot – before you ever read scripture you were told what was there – so when you got around to reading it for yourself – sure enough you found what you expected to find
This is called cognitive closure The best example is seeing a shape in the clouds Ask others to tell you what they see and you get various answers – some even say the see nothing at all Tell them you see a bunny – and over time they will all see your bunny
Another example – a speeding car turns the corner and comes racing at you What do you see – you see a car Why don’t you see a collection of chrome parts and metal parts with glass and rubber – you do see all those things, but your mind quickly closes on a car
You have always been taught that satan is powerful and in control You have always been told that Ezk 28 is proof Now that you seek these things your self – you see what you have always been told was there
I didn’t wake up until I began studying with the Rabbi
So you have two verses and a cultural heritage – and then start denying large sections of scripture that don’t fit your model
You were willing to overlook the entire Book of Job and all the 49 + 23 verses that illuminate satans behavior with the tanak
Here is my example of just how powerful and dangerous pulling verses out of context and building doctrine around them
Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring shalom on the earth; I did not come to bring shalom, but a sword.
Luk 19:27 But these mine enemies, that would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Kill the infidel – this is exactly what Islam says One cultural attitude + 2 verses The only good indian is a dead indian so they cannot reproduce more pagan babies
And you will say – this is silly because these two verse taken out of context do not a doctrine make because they simple do not fit with the bulk of scripture But cherub chata – that’s different
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
God cannot be tempted / accused / opposed – yet you claim that your Catholic satan is exactly that God does not temp man directly – he test man indirectly by sending the temptation in the form of an archon
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 14:12:57 GMT -5
Greetings Dave: It is relatively easy to find Jews believing is some concept of Satan... 2 websites www.myjewishlearning.com/article/satan-the-adversary/
Do Jews Believe in Satan? In Jewish texts, the devil is sometimes an adversary and sometimes an embodiment of evil. By MJL and MJL Admin Satan occupies a prominent place in Christianity, which generally regards him as a rebellious angel and the source of evil who will meet his ultimate demise in battle at the End of Days. Jewish sources on the whole don’t dwell as much on the satanic, but the concept is nonetheless explored in numerous texts.
Satan appears in the Bible, was discussed by the rabbis of the Talmud and is explored in detail in Jewish mysticism, or Kabbalah. In Hebrew, the term Satan is usually translated as “opponent” or “adversary,” and he is often understood to represent the sinful impulse (in Hebrew, yetzer hara) or, more generally, the forces that prevents human beings from submitting to divine will. He is also sometimes regarded as a heavenly prosecutor or accuser, a view given expression in the Book of Job, where Satan encourages God to test his servant. Kabbalistic sources expand the view of Satan considerably, offering a rich and detailed portrayal of the demonic realm and the forces of evil in the world, which are to be warded off in some cases with various forms of magic, from amulets to exorcisms.
Satan in the Bible
The Bible contains multiple references to Satan. The word appears just twice in the Torah , both times in the story of Balaam, the seer who is asked by the Moabite king Balak to curse the Jews. When Balaam goes with Balak’s emissaries, God places an angel in his path “l’satan lo” — as an adversary for him. The term appears in multiple other instances in the Prophets, often in a similar context — referring not to a specific figure as the Satan, but rather as a descriptor for individuals who act as a satan, i.e. as adversaries.
Only twice in the Hebrew Bible does Satan appear as a specific figure, as HaSatan — the Satan. One is a brief reference in the Book of Zecharia, where the high priest is described as standing before a divine angel while Satan stands at his right to accuse him. The other is in the Book of Job, where Satan has a central role in the story as an angel in the divine court. According to the biblical narrative, Satan — here too commonly translated as the Adversary — seems to urge God to create hardship for his righteous servant Job, arguing that Job is faithful only on account of his wealth and good fortune. Take those away, Satan claims, and Job will blaspheme. God permits Satan to take away Job’s wealth, kill his family and afflict him physically, none of which induces Job to rebel against God.
The Book of Job is sometimes cited to support the claim that the Jewish view of Satan as an agent of God is different from the Christian view, which sees Satan as an autonomous force opposed to God. In the story, Satan inflicts suffering on a human being and seeks to induce him to sin — but only with God’s permission.
Satan in the Talmud
Satan makes many appearances in the Talmud. A lengthy passage in the tractate Sanhedrin accords Satan a central role in the biblical story of the binding of Isaac. According to Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, it was Satan that caused the Jewish people to despair of Moses returning from Mount Sinai by showing them an image of the prophet on his deathbed. A passage in the tractate Megillah says that Satan dancing at the party of the Persian King Ahasuerus is what led to the killing of Queen Vashti in the Purim story.
In Tractate Bava Batra, Reish Lakish says that Satan, the yetzer hara and the Angel of Death are all one. Maimonides, the medieval Jewish philosopher, endorses this position in his Guide for the Perplexed. The word Satan, Maimonides writes, derives from the Hebrew root for “turn away.” Like the evil inclination, Satan’s function is to divert human beings from the path of truth and righteousness. Maimonides seems not to believe Satan actually exists, but rather that he is a symbol of the inclination to sin. The entire Book of Job, he writes, is fictional, intended merely to elucidate certain truths about divine providence. And even if it is true, Maimonides continues, certainly the portion in which God and Satan speak with each other is merely a parable.
Satan in Kabbalah and Hasidism
The Jewish mystical tradition has much to say about Satan. Indeed, kabbalistic texts offer a rich description not merely of Satan, but of an entire realm of evil populated by demons and spirits that exists in parallel to the realm of the holy. Satan is known in Kabbalah as Sama’el (rendered in some sources as the Great Demon), and the demonic realm generally as the Sitra Achra — literally “the other side.” The consort of Sama’el (who is mentioned in pre-kabbalistic Jewish literature as well) is Lilith, a mythic figure in Jewish tradition more commonly known as the rebellious first wife of Adam. The kabbalistic sources portray the demonic as a separate and oppositional realm in conflict with God. Kabbalah even offers explanations of the origins of the demonic realm, the most common of which is that this realm emerges when the attribute of God associated with femininity and judgment, is dissociated from the attribute of God associated with grace and masculinity, and becomes unconstrained. Evil, in this reading, results from an excess of judgment.
Many of these ideas would later find expression in Jewish folk beliefs and in the works of the Hasidic masters. Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Poloniye, one of the chief disciples of Hasidism’s founder, the Baal Shem Tov, wrote in his Toldos Yaakov Yosef that God would eventually slaughter the angel of death during the messianic age — a belief that clearly echoes the Christian view of a final showdown between God and Satan at the End of Days. Hasidic folk tales are replete with descriptions of demonic forces, among them a famous story in which the Baal Shem Tov defends a group of children from a werewolf. Even today some Hasidic Jews will seek out protections from such forces in the form of amulets or incantations. Some Jewish communities, particularly in the Sephardic world, also prize amulets as protection from evil spirits and maintain a number of customs and rituals aimed at keeping those spirits at bay. Jewish sources dating back to biblical times including formulas for exorcisms to free the possessed of an evil spirit, known as a dybbuk.
Jewish vs. Christian Conceptions of Satan
On the whole, Satan occupies a far more prominent place in Christian theology than in traditional rabbinic sources. The Book of Revelation, in the New Testament, references an “ancient serpent” — commonly understood as the snake that tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden — “who is the Devil and Satan.” It describes a reg dragon with seven heads and 10 horns that stands opposite a pregnant woman about to give birth in order to devour the child — that is, Jesus. Revelation further describes a war in heaven in which Satan is hurled to earth, where he proceeds to lead the world astray. (In the New Testament’s Book of Luke, Jesus says he saw Satan “fall like lightning from heaven.”) According to Christian prophecy, Satan will be bound by a chain for 1,000 years after the return of Jesus. Some of these Christian ideas are echoed in Jewish tradition, but some also point to fundamental differences — most notably perhaps the idea that, in the Hebrew Bible at least, Satan is ultimately subordinate to God, carrying out his purpose on earth. Or that he isn’t real at all, but is merely a metaphor for sinful impulses.
The kabbalistic and Hasidic literature complicate this view, offering a closer parallel to Christian eschatology. Both the kabbalistic/Hasidic and Christian traditions describe the forces of the holy and the demonic as locked in a struggle that will culminate in God’s eventual victory. According to some scholars, this is born of the considerable cross-pollination between Christian and Jewish thinking in the so-called “golden age” of Jewish culture in Spain during the Middle Ages, from whence many of the early kabbalistic texts, including the Zohar, emerged.
Another Jewish source, with some Biblical errors:
www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-do-jews-believe-in-the-devil-1.6588731 by Elon Gilad Haaretz Contributor Oct 2018
Do Jews Believe in the Devil? Satan didn’t arise from Hell fully formed. The concept of an ultimate Evil One was apparently borrowed from the Persians and continued to evolve throughout antiquity When Jews believed in multiple gods, there was no difficulty in explaining why bad things happen to good men. A vast array of spirits, demons, evil gods and things that go bump in the night could be blamed for their misfortune. But once God was elevated to supreme and then the only god, the problem became vexing: Was God unfair? With help from the Persians, Jews came up with an answer: Satan.
First Temple Period (700-586 B.C.E.): Satan the lawyer
In the early books of the Bible, which were written roughly in the First Temple period, there is no Prince of Darkness, just demons called se’irim. Some had names, such as Belial and Azazel, but none reigned supreme.
We do find the word satan in these early biblical books, but they do not refer to a demon. Rather, "satan" is just a proper noun denoting an adversary in a martial or judicial setting. For example, a foreign king opposing the king of Israel was said to be a satan: "And the Lord stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite" (1 Kings 11:14). Clearly, the Bible does not have the Prince of Darkness in mind here, but rather a man of flesh and bone.
It is true that the Bible also refers to supernatural beings as being satans. For instance, in the story of Balaam in the Book of Numbers, God becomes angry and sends an "angel of the Lord" to stand "in the way for an adversary against him [Balaam]" (Numbers 22:22). In this case too, we are not talking about Satan with a capital S, rather just an unnamed messenger of God doing the Lord’s bidding, as an adversary.
Early Second Temple Period (530-450 B.C.E.): Devil the Bob
By the time the Book of Job was conceived, apparently in the early Second Temple period around 2,500 years ago, we can see a slight movement towards the development of Satan as an evil being. But he still isn't Satan with a capital S. The book itself is an essay on the problem of evil, probably written in response to the destruction of Judah and the Temple. Job, we are told, is “perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil,” yet he faces terrible calamities. Why?
Job’s troubles are attributed to the work of ha-satan, that is, "the adversary," and not, as the English translations insist, Satan with capital S. The word satan in Job could not be a name: in the Hebrew original it is always preceded by "ha," which is equivalent to the English word "the" (this would be equivalent to saying “the Bob”). Thus satan in Job is "adversary," just as it was in the earlier books of the Bible.
(Rob comments: The prefix "hey" in ancient Hebrew is "Behold the Being", not "the". It is saying Behold the Being who is an Opponent)
Yet the Book of Job does not refer to just any adversary but to "the adversary.”
(Rob comments: correct)
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and the satan came also among them" (Job 1:6). "The adversary" is a member of God’s heavenly council, who says he had just returned "from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
(Rob comments: Why is "the Opposer" a member of the council?)
God asks him what he thinks of Job, but being a kind of prosecutor, the satan says that Job is only being good because he is being rewarded for it. He convinces God to test Job's piety with a deluge of disasters. A similar image of ha-satan, the satan as heavenly prosecutor, can be found in the Book of Zechariah (3:1-10), which is also believed to date from the early Second Temple period. In it, where Joshua the high priest is put on trial and accused by "the adversary." The Lord acting as judge rebukes him and sides with the "Angel of the Lord" who acts as the priest’s defense attorney.
(Rob comments: correct, The Opposer is opposed by GOD. )
Late Second Temple Period (450 B.C.E.-70 C.E.): My name isn't Legion, it's Mastema The one and only time we find Satan used as a proper name in the Bible is in the Book of Chronicles. He appears in revisions of the books of Samuel and Kings, the Book of Chronicles, probably dating to the late 4th or early 3rd centuries B.C.E. When rewriting the story of King David calling a census in 2 Samuel 24:1, where it says "“And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah," the Chronicler switches out the Lord for Satan: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (1 Chronicles 21:1). He is no longer ha-satan, the adversary, but Satan. This is roughly the point at which the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek, and the noun satan was translated into the Greek word diábolos, which means “one who slanders, accuses.” The Greek word eventually made its way into English as "devil".
(Rob comments: incorrect. The Greek word "Satan" is carried from the Hebrew word "Satan" into the NT. The Greek word diabolos, comes from elsewhere??)
This is also roughly the same period that the Book of the Watchers and the Book of Enoch were written. While these books were not incorporated into the Hebrew Bible, they were popular at the time – over 2,000 years ago, and reflect the views of at least some Jews in the late Second Temple period, including those living in Qumran who painstakingly made many copies of these books. These deuterocanonical books contain a horde of evil demons and they have a leader, the chief evil spirit, but he is not called Satan. In the Book of the Watchers, he is called Mastema. That name is almost certainly etymologically related to the noun satan.
But in the Book of Enoch, this figure is called Samyaza, which might mean "(he) saw my name." In addition, Hebrew literature from this period also refers to demonic figures named Belial and Samael. All these names refer to the same basic idea, a chief demon, who opposes God and heads a group of fallen angels who spread evil throughout the world.
Where did Jews of this period get the idea that there is a chief demon responsible for all that is evil? At one level, inventing a chief demon was a logical evolution of the conception of God that took shape in this period. If God is all-powerful and utterly good, how could bad things happen? He couldn’t be responsible, so some other being must be to blame, a kind of anti-God perhaps. But Jews apparently didn’t come up with this idea on their own. They seem to have picked it up from their Persian overloads, who ruled over the entire Middle East from 539 to 330 B.C.E. The Persian religion Zoroastrianism envisioned the universe as a battle ground between to opposing supreme gods Ahura Mazda, the "wise lord," and Angra Mainyu, the destructive spirit." After the Temple (After 70 C.E.): Evil Superman
In the year 70 C.E., Roman soldiers commanded by Vespasian destroyed Jerusalem and the Second Temple, to punish the Jews for (unsuccessfully) rebelling. The period after the destruction of the Temple was a critical one in the formation of both Christianity and rabbinic Judaism. The books of the Christian Bible abound with references to Satan, as he was imagined in Judaism in the late Second Temple period. For example the Gospel of Mark says of Jesus: "And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him" (1:13).
Within Christianity, Satan evolved into the Antichrist, God’s antithesis, who is behind all that is evil. He is the master of Hell, as everyone knows from popular culture. Not so in rabbinic Judaism, at least not at first. Rabbinic literature of the Tannaic period (70-250 C.E.), namely the Mishnah and the Tosefta, hardly ever refers to Satan. It seems as if the rabbis rejected the full-blown image of the devil as he appears in the Book of the Watchers and the Book of Enoch, books they did not admit into the canon.
But this retreat in the Evil One's status was temporary. Come the Amoraic period (250-450 C.E.) Satan reemerged in Jewish literature - the Talmud, and more prominently in the Midrashic literature, where he is blamed for pretty much every nastiness that took place in the Bible, from David sinning with the married Bathsheba to the Binding of Isaac (i.e., for sacrifice). In the Jewish literature of the rabbis, Satan is portrayed as a singular being who lures men into sin, and as prosecutor in the divine tribunal, trying to convince God to mete out harsh penalties. He is said to been a powerful angel, able to fly and assume the shape of men, women and animals. This devil was often called Ashmedai or Asmodeus, a name deriving from a Zoroastrian evil demon, or Samael, a demonic entity also mentioned in the gnostic literature found in Nag Hammadi (a collection of early Christian and gnostic texts discovered near the Egyptian town of the same name in 1945.) In the Talmud he is conflated with the Angel of Death and the Evil Inclination.
Still, despite Satan appearing quite frequently in the Talmud and Midrashic literature, mainstream medieval rabbis did not dwell on him, or discuss methods of combating his malevolence. This would become the domain of Kabbalistic literature, especially the Zohar, written in 13th century Spain. The Zohar expands on the character of Satan, which it calls Samael. It provides him with a wife, the evil spirit Lilith, and a set of demons which do his bidding.
Obviously, this worldview required different methods of fighting Satan, Lilith and their minions. This was achieved chiefly by reciting spells and sporting amulets. The view of Satan and his demons as actual beings was criticized by more rationalist streams of Judaism and most prominently by Maimonides, the sage who lived in the 12th century. Over time, as Judaism advanced to the modern period, this rationalist view prevailed and Satan and his minions were interpreted, at least in mainstream Judaism, in more metaphoric ways: they emblemize the evil inclinations which man carries within him, and cause him to stray from the path set for him by God.
There is enough evidence here Dave, that Jews do consider Satan, as an Opposer.
You seem to make the Opposer (which you agree with me means opposer, oppose or opponent), in some contexts such as Job, where GOD does not see the Opposer as an Opposer? Why do you change your view, just because it suits your purpose? You say Opposer opposes man, but Opposer does not oppose GOD. That's funny, that's a violation of the meaning of the word.
For example in a court room there are two lawyers:
And I quote: "A similar image of ha-satan, the satan as heavenly prosecutor, can be found in the Book of Zechariah (3:1-10), which is also believed to date from the early Second Temple period. In it, where Joshua the high priest is put on trial and accused by "the adversary." The Lord acting as judge rebukes him and sides with the "Angel of the Lord" who acts as the priest’s defense attorney."
One is the Opposer, the heavenly prosecutor, the other the Priests defense attorney.
I guess you say the Opposer is here to oppose Man, not God. Fair comment. When Jesus called the devil who tempted him to worship him, rather than His Father, and Jesus said get away from me Opposer, is just another example of the Opposer opposing the humanity of Jesus, and NOT the divinity of Jesus?
There are 66 verses which have "cherub" in them, funny Jews do not read these cases of angelic cherubs terms as beings. Rather they focus on the 10 orders of angelic functions. Most common reference is "malak" the messenger from heaven. "Malak" can refer to human, angel, or a member of GOD.
Ps 99:1 ¶ The LORD sitteth between the cherubims "k@ruwb" Ps 18:10 And GOD rode upon a cherub and did fly : yea, he did fly upon the wings of the Holy Spirit. Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub <k@ruwb>.... Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
66 verses refer to cherub angels, one angel was anointed next to GOD of the highest order of angels, chose to sin.
I follow the Hebrew verses Dave, just as they read. I don't need the NT, which builds upon these 66 verses about cherubs.
Dave writes: "God cannot be tempted / accused / opposed
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face
. Is this not an Opposer tempting GOD? Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Is this not an Opposer accusing GOD of lying?
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Is this not an Opposer opposing God?
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto the Opposer, have you considered Job, who loves me. There is none like Job.
A blameless man who loves me.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. This answer opposes GOD's question, does not affirm God as a servant would. Clearly the Opposer is opposing GOD, but works within limits.
Dave writes: God cannot be tempted" but "God does not tempt man directly " so God does tempt man, just not directly?? confusion for you
Dave writes: "Luk 19:27 But these mine enemies, that would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Was the Bible written by GOD directly, or by MAN moved by GOD, thus via their cultural understanding? I see this as GOD writing to the cultural sinning mindset of the people, as they are.
God deals with you as you are and leads you to a higher more holy understanding. The Bible contains all these messages.
Dave writes:"You have always been taught that satan is powerful and in control You have always been told that Ezk 28 is proof
Satan fell from heaven like lightning, the Opposer is weaker than GOD. The Hebrew Bible explains things if you read. You don't need other people's opinions.
Shalom my friend
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Post by Dave on Jun 3, 2020 6:18:40 GMT -5
Greetings Dave: It is relatively easy to find Jews believing is some concept of Satan... 2 websites (AGREE - if you bother to look it is very easy to find out a lot of things today)
Do Jews Believe in Satan? In Jewish texts, the devil is sometimes an adversary and sometimes an embodiment of evil. (AGREE) Satan occupies a prominent place in Christianity, (AGREE)
In Hebrew, the term Satan is usually translated as “opponent” or “adversary,” and he is often understood to represent the sinful impulse (in Hebrew, yetzer hara) or, more generally, the forces that prevents human beings from submitting to divine will. (AGREE - opposes man)
He is also sometimes regarded as a heavenly prosecutor or accuser (AGREE of man never of God)
Kabbalistic sources expand the view of Satan considerably, offering a rich and detailed portrayal of the demonic realm and the forces of evil in the world, which are to be warded off in some cases with various forms of magic, from amulets to exorcisms. (AGREE - the realm of the archon)
The term appears in multiple other instances in the Prophets, often in a similar context — referring not to a specific figure as the Satan, but rather as a descriptor for individuals who act as a satan, i.e. as adversaries. (AGREE - any being use for this function - Gnostic = I can be your satan Peter was satan to Jesus)
Only twice in the Hebrew Bible does Satan appear as a specific figure, as HaSatan — the Satan. One is a brief reference in the Book of Zecharia, where the high priest is described as standing before a divine angel while Satan stands at his right to accuse him. (AGREE - accusing Joshua not God)
The Book of Job is sometimes cited to support the claim that the Jewish view of Satan as an agent of God is different from the Christian view, which sees Satan as an autonomous force opposed to God. In the story, Satan inflicts suffering on a human being and seeks to induce him to sin — but only with God’s permission. (AGREE - opposes human and under God’s control)
Satan makes many appearances in the Talmud. A lengthy passage in the tractate Sanhedrin accords Satan a central role in the biblical story of the binding of Isaac. According to Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, it was Satan that caused the Jewish people to despair of Moses returning from Mount Sinai by showing them an image of the prophet on his deathbed. A passage in the tractate Megillah says that Satan dancing at the party of the Persian King Ahasuerus is what led to the killing of Queen Vashti in the Purim story. (So - big deal )
In Tractate Bava Batra, Reish Lakish says that Satan, the yetzer hara and the Angel of Death are all one. (Possibly - the angel of death was a ra tool used by God - was certianally an anchon)Maimonides, the medieval Jewish philosopher, endorses this position in his Guide for the Perplexed. The word Satan, Maimonides writes, derives from the Hebrew root for “turn away.” Like the evil inclination, Satan’s function is to divert human beings from the path of truth and righteousness. (AGREE - opposes humans - not God) Maimonides seems not to believe Satan actually exists, but rather that he is a symbol of the inclination to sin. (AGREE - there are many archon - real beings YES!) The entire Book of Job, he writes, is fictional, intended merely to elucidate certain truths about divine providence. And even if it is true, Maimonides continues, certainly the portion in which God and Satan speak with each other is merely a parable.(It is the word of God - do you seek to discredit it? Andf are you suggesting that parables within scripture have no relevance? - Just what is your point here?)
The Jewish mystical tradition has much to say about Satan. Indeed, kabbalistic texts offer a rich description not merely of Satan, but of an entire realm of evil populated by demons and spirits that exists in parallel to the realm of the holy. (AGREE - the realm of the archon - within the chosek)
Satan is known in Kabbalah as Sama’el (rendered in some sources as the Great Demon), and the demonic realm generally as the Sitra Achra — literally “the other side.” The consort of Sama’el (who is mentioned in pre-kabbalistic Jewish literature as well) is Lilith, a mythic figure in Jewish tradition more commonly known as the rebellious first wife of Adam. (AGREE - have tried to educate you all about these) The kabbalistic sources portray the demonic as a separate and oppositional realm in conflict with God. Kabbalah even offers explanations of the origins of the demonic realm, the most common of which is that this realm emerges when the attribute of God associated with femininity and judgment, is dissociated from the attribute of God associated with grace and masculinity (AGREE see how very Jewish Gnostic Literature is)
Many of these ideas would later find expression in Jewish folk beliefs and in the works of the Hasidic masters. Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Poloniye, one of the chief disciples of Hasidism’s founder, the Baal Shem Tov, wrote in his Toldos Yaakov Yosef that God would eventually slaughter the angel of death during the messianic age — a belief that clearly echoes the Christian view of a final showdown between God and Satan at the End of Days. Hasidic folk tales are replete with descriptions of demonic forces, among them a famous story in which the Baal Shem Tov defends a group of children from a werewolf. Even today some Hasidic Jews will seek out protections from such forces in the form of amulets or incantations. Some Jewish communities, particularly in the Sephardic world, also prize amulets as protection from evil spirits and maintain a number of customs and rituals aimed at keeping those spirits at bay. Jewish sources dating back to biblical times including formulas for exorcisms to free the possessed of an evil spirit, known as a dybbuk. (all from King Solomon)
On the whole, Satan occupies a far more prominent place in Christian theology than in traditional rabbinic sources. (You understand that not all Christians hold to this Catholic view - what is being discussed here is Roman Christendom)
The kabbalistic and Hasidic literature complicate this view, offering a closer parallel to Christian eschatology. Both the kabbalistic/Hasidic and Christian traditions describe the forces of the holy and the demonic as locked in a struggle that will culminate in God’s eventual victory DUH - Jews and Christians both await the coming Kingdom
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and the satan came also among them" (Job 1:6). "The adversary" is a member of God’s heavenly council, who says he had just returned "from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." (Rob comments: Why is "the Opposer" a member of the council?) DUH - the bane elohiym are archon and satan is also an archon
(Rob comments: incorrect. The Greek word "Satan" is carried from the Hebrew word "Satan" into the NT. The Greek word diabolos, comes from elsewhere??) The Greek word means the diabolical one - used in a lot of ancient Greek that has nothing to do the scripture, Hebrew, or Israel
This is also roughly the same period that the Book of the Watchers and the Book of Enoch were written. While these books were not incorporated into the Hebrew Bible, they were popular at the time – over 2,000 years ago, and reflect the views of at least some Jews in the late Second Temple period, including those living in Qumran who painstakingly made many copies of these books. YES! - Enoch was considered scripture by the Jews at the time of Christ. Remember the Jews never had -a Bible - they had a collection of writings - Enoch included
In the Book of the Watchers, he is called Mastema. That name is almost certainly etymologically related to the noun satan. (Book of the Watchers is not the same text as the Book of Enoch)
But in the Book of Enoch, this figure is called Samyaza, which might mean "(he) saw my name." In addition, Hebrew literature from this period also refers to demonic figures named Belial and Samael. All these names refer to the same basic idea, a chief demon, who opposes God and heads a group of fallen angels who spread evil throughout the world. (AGREE = Chief Archon + his offspring the bane elohiym)
But Jews apparently didn’t come up with this idea on their own. They seem to have picked it up from their Persian overloads, who ruled over the entire Middle East from 539 to 330 B.C.E. The Persian religion Zoroastrianism envisioned the universe as a battle ground between to opposing supreme gods Ahura Mazda, the "wise lord," and Angra Mainyu, the destructive spirit." After the Temple (After 70 C.E.): Evil Superman (Wait is this the Jewish view? The Jews see satan as God’s servant - it is Roman Christendom that has two opposing gods The Creator vrs satan)
Within Christianity, Satan evolved into the Antichrist, God’s antithesis, who is behind all that is evil. He is the master of Hell, as everyone knows from popular culture. (AGREE - fueled by popular culture) Not so in rabbinic Judaism, at least not at first. Rabbinic literature of the Tannaic period (70-250 C.E.), namely the Mishnah and the Tosefta, hardly ever refers to Satan. It seems as if the rabbis rejected the full-blown image of the devil as he appears in the Book of the Watchers and the Book of Enoch, books they did not admit into the canon. The Jews DO NOT HAVE A CANON ROME DOES!
But this retreat in the Evil One's status was temporary. Come the Amoraic period (250-450 C.E.) Satan reemerged in Jewish literature - the Talmud, and more prominently in the Midrashic literature, where he is blamed for pretty much every nastiness that took place in the Bible, from David sinning with the married Bathsheba to the Binding of Isaac (i.e., for sacrifice). (AGREE - archon are the ‘other gods’ desiring sacrifice)
In the Jewish literature of the rabbis, Satan is portrayed as a singular being who lures men into sin, and as prosecutor in the divine tribunal, trying to convince God to mete out harsh penalties. (AGREE) He is said to been a powerful angel, able to fly and assume the shape of men, women and animals. (AGREE- all archon can shape shift - make you see what they want you to see ) This devil was often called Ashmedai or Asmodeus, a name deriving from a Zoroastrian evil demon, or Samael, a demonic entity also mentioned in the gnostic literature found in Nag Hammadi (a collection of early Christian and gnostic texts discovered near the Egyptian town of the same name in 1945.) I LIKE IT
There is enough evidence here Dave, that Jews do consider Satan, as an Opposer. (AGREE oppose of man - that is the function of the archon)
66 verses refer to cherub angels, one angel was anointed next to GOD of the highest order of angels, chose to sin. One verse theology inconsistent with the rest of scripture
Dave writes: "God cannot be tempted / accused / opposed Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face Is this not an Opposer tempting GOD? So a question about Job ability to withstand he contest = satan opposes God Have you children ever asked you a question - does that automatically mean they hate and oppose you I ask you questions - it doesn’t mean I oppose God or you - just your catholic satan view It is the function of the procacuter to ask doubting questions - don't you get it
Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Is this not an Opposer accusing GOD of lying? Just proves that the serpent is a liar
Dave writes: God cannot be tempted" but "God does not tempt man directly " so God does tempt man, just not directly?? confusion for you You deny all of scripture - Duet tells us more than once that were are proven / tested I have given you Duet 8:2 and 13:3
Jer 17:10 I, Jehovah, search the mind, I try the heart, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.
Psa 11:5 Jehovah trieth the righteous; But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psa 7:9 O let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, but establish thou the righteous: For the righteous God trieth the minds and hearts.
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.
Psa 66:10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: Thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.
Pro 17:3 The refining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold; But Jehovah trieth the hearts.
Isa 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not as silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
Eze 21:13 For there is a trial; and what if even the rod that contemneth shall be no more? saith the Lord Jehovah.
1Co 3:13 each man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man's work of what sort it is.
Jas 1:3 Knowing that the proving of your faith worketh patience.
Jer 20:12 But, O Jehovah of hosts, that triest the righteous, that seest the heart and the mind, let me see thy vengeance on them; for unto thee have I revealed my cause.
Point - God test His people - but if He doesn’t do it directly who does? There is a function for that called satan - who is the personification of the Chief Archon and his archon army
God deals with you as you are and leads you to a higher more holy understanding. The Bible contains all these messages. (AGREE - and the archon, who oppose man, try their best to get in the way)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2020 14:01:27 GMT -5
So in summary you, along with most Jews, see the Opposer opposing only man, and not GOD.
And "One verse theology inconsistent with the rest of scripture", so you reject this idea, and invent other Jewish pictures of the Opposer, such as Lilith being a rebellious wife of Adam, which is not found in Scripture anyway (the word is perhaps alluded to at best)
Gordon does this too, with "elohiym" ignoring the 3 verses of context he does not like, in favour of the thousands of context he does like. Does the Hebrew Scriptures work in this way? We pick only the verses that fit our theology? And ignore the minor verses that differ? We are supposed to study all the lines upon lines. All must have harmony.
Just suppose the great Most High, did make a universe full of free will creatures so His love could be demonstrated for trillions of years. And for trillions of years, the love is demonstrated in all those creatures, loving and supporting GOD, and GOD loving and support them. One creature must be allowed to seat next to GOD, just as GOD is a family and has members of divinity also sit. One day over the course of years this commanding creature decides to explore the free will inside him. After all he has the ability to explore this. He reads among the fires of stones there are laws of obedience for love, and terrible consequences for disobedience. He is not sure what these words mean. After all nobody has experienced this. And GOD in fairness to being a GOD of law and order, has to write down the laws associated with free will. The Father warns the high creature about his thoughts and the dark words associated with that side of the free will. This only makes the creature want to explore this side of free will even more. The more the Father speaks personally about this dark side, the more resistant the high creature becomes. We have the beginning of pride, which by definition is the opposing of relationship.
You write, someone who answers a question differently is opposing you. Yes he is. Human opposes exist all the time. How would one recognize an Opposer opposing GOD Himself in Scripture? You cannot answer that question because you have GOD creating creatures deliberately bad, and this act violates the Hebrew word "oppose" already. Hence why we battled with you. Once you create "bad" creatures, the "oppose" word cannot function at all, so you get around this by twisting the meaning of the word to suit only creatures who are human.
But this would only work if humans are born "good", and become "bad" thus they begin "opposing" God. However if humans are born "bad", they are already opposing GOD and hence the word "oppose" cannot function.
You use the function of an "oppose" to test humans to return to GOD. Would this work in a world of good and evil? If GOD was both "good and evil" and the Opposer is sent to test you, so you return to a god of good and evil, would you want to return? For me personally, no. That is known in my world as abuse. Not love. Love cannot love, than hate, than love, than test me with hate, than love me with grace again. That is abuse.
And if this creature finally sinned and spoiled GOD's universe for the first time, what would GOD do? How could you write Job for instance any differently?
Once this angel causes the King of earth (once was Adam) to fall, the oppose is automatically the king of earth, and allowed to visit GOD in heaven, since He is king of earth. That's why GOD has to treat the oppose with respect, and also why the oppose has to treat the great most high with some respect too. But they oppose each other. How do I know this? Because they fight over human salvation.
If you remove the fact the Opposer is a king of earth, I might agree with you, the Opposer is not opposing GOD, but you have never considered why the Opposer is a "prince/sar/king".
A "prince/sar/king" would fight to defend his kingdom, hence the opposing king fights against any attacks to his kingdom. Who attacks His kingdom? Jesus does, who in Daniel the Ancient of Days sets his Son as KING of the earth, even though earth has fallen into the King Opposer. They fight over humans. This is what salvation is for, getting fallen humans from one King to another King.
Why didn't the Father fight to get back his angels that sinned. He did try, but many were lost because of their pride and stubbornness. The oppose would laugh and say to his followers, look at that slobbering crying Most High, be strong like me. We don't need laws to live, we can live by ourselves.
Does living come naturally inside matter? No But the Opposer thinks it does, hence evolution is really naturalism, the process of living without GOD. If you think this idea is not opposing GOD, you are mistaken.
The concept of death, is an idea that opposes GOD, because GOD is living, not dying.
You cannot ignore the word "oppose" to make it only fit with Humans. The world, indeed the whole of creation, was not just for humans, the bigger picture you speak about must also be considered. God is on trial. Sin is a broken relationship.
In Job 1:6 what is the council meeting for? Kings who own kingdoms come together for a chat.
Is there any evidence for this idea?
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
The King of all Kingdoms, will lay this King before other Kings, that these other kings may behold your demise.
Does earth get another king, to fight over humans who now belong to this King Opposer?
Yes
Da 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
The Great Most High, gives this fallen kingdom to His Son. One problem, the Son isn't not King yet until he buys back the Kingdom lost, How does GOD's laws deal with kingdoms lost because of mischief?
Ex 21:22 ¶ If Opposer strive, and hurt a Holy Spirit with man children, so that her fruit depart from her, 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give eternal life for eternal life,
SO the divinity in the Son has to die, and a swapping of eternal powers for eternal dying, in order to meet this law, in the ten commandments which simply says "no wounding". This is an infinite sacrifice on behalf of Jesus our prince.
Does Jesus speak of the Opposer as a King? Yes
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (KJV)
The King Opposer lost His kingdom when King Rescue died on His cross. This is why King Rescue can say: He saw King Opposer fall from heaven like lightning.
Why did Jesus our Creator set up testing in the Garden of Eden? Because the Opposer was already in the universe opposing GOD. And this is also why the universe was designed to fall into dysfunction should Adam, the King fall.
Did the Kingdom fall? yes
Ro 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
That word "condemnation" is a judicial term, found in the heavenly court room. A heavenly court ruled a change took place.
Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
Death is also an opposing force to living, and death reigns in humans. Does death also impact GOD? Yes. Jesus died to bring salvation, so even death-opposed GOD.
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
You and I fought over this one theological verse too. Why? it's important. Kathestemi means "ruler" one who ruler over another. But you disagree?
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many "ruled" sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be "ruled" righteous.
Either you are ruled by the King Opposer, or your ruled by King Rescue. NOW you have a choice, whereas before Jesus died, you had no choice. Free will choice is restored.
Why didn't GOD die for his angels that sinned? Because they were already trillions of years with GOD, saw GOD and knew both sides of free will, and lived in both sides of free will, they chose to hop over, while free will exists.
Humans born into condemnation, do not have free will to choose. We only have the King Opposer of Death, and we live on probation. So King Rescue died to make free will choice possible again, so we can choose which KING rules over us.
Your theology Dave does not make sense. One has to fit all the verses of Scripture, all the themes of Scripture into harmony. If you consider this theory of faith on mine does not fit, attack it using Hebrew Scripture....
While I respect your Gnostic Writings you select, some quotes are wrong.
You cannot have a creature created doing bad. That negates the word "oppose". Why would GOD create an opposer as a creature? That also violates free will relationship based on love. Now you have relationships based on good and bad, hate and love, death and living.
You also violate the term "War in heaven", lasting 6 seconds. wow Not my idea of war and daily battles over the King Opposer who hates me, choosing King Rescue over my soul.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jun 4, 2020 7:05:29 GMT -5
So in summary you, along with most Jews, see the Opposer opposing only man, and not GOD. I have asked you to show me any Jew that believes as a Catholic does - you haven’t So - it is all Jews
And "One verse theology inconsistent with the rest of scripture", so you reject this idea, YES! - I reject one verse theologies
and invent other Jewish pictures of the Opposer, such as Lilith being a rebellious wife of Adam, which is not found in Scripture anyway (the word is perhaps alluded to at best) Lillith is found in the whole of Jewish scripture - but the whole of Jewish scripture is larger than your Catholic OT
Gordon does this too, with "elohiym" ignoring the 3 verses of context he does not like, in favour of the thousands of context he does like. Does the Hebrew Scriptures work in this way? We pick only the verses that fit our theology? And ignore the minor verses that differ? We are supposed to study all the lines upon lines. All must have harmony. This is exactly what you do with Ezk 28 To hell with the rest of scripture - you have your one verse
Just suppose - pretend anything you want
You write, someone who answers a question differently is opposing you. Yes he is. Human opposes exist all the time. How would one recognize an Opposer opposing GOD Himself in Scripture? James 1:13 - impossible - God cannot be tempted / tested again - you have to deny to much scripture to force your one verse theology
But this would only work if humans are born "good", and become "bad" thus they begin "opposing" God. YES! - from the womb we remember - then forget as carnal desire over take our minds
However if humans are born "bad", they are already opposing GOD and hence the word "oppose" cannot function. Good - this is not the case - humans are born with Free Will and can choose
You use the function of an "oppose" to test humans to return to GOD. I doubt the archon care if you return to God or not - they just test
If GOD was both "good and evil" and the Opposer is sent to test you, so you return to a god of good and evil, would you want to return? God is not Good abd Evil - He simply created both the tov and the ra
And if this creature finally sinned and spoiled GOD's universe for the first time, what would GOD do? How could you write Job for instance any differently? Again you insist that your satan is powerful enough to SPOIL God’s plan - Strong satan / weak God
If you remove the fact the Opposer is a king of earth, I might agree with you, the Opposer is not opposing GOD, but you have never considered why the Opposer is a "prince/sar/king". You are the one who told me that scriptural ‘sar’ = archon Of course the prince of this world is a sar - because it is an archon
This is what salvation is for, getting fallen humans from one King to another King. satan might be you KING - but he is not the King of the Jews God is - there is only one King
You cannot ignore the word "oppose" to make it only fit with Humans. The world, indeed the whole of creation, was not just for humans, the bigger picture you speak about must also be considered. God is on trial. Sin is a broken relationship. God is NOT on trial - again you weaken Gods and embolden your satan god
Why didn't GOD die for his angels that sinned? Show me a verse that says Jesus died upon the cross to save the angels
You cannot have a creature created doing bad. That negates the word "oppose". Why would GOD create an opposer as a creature? To test man to see if they Love the Lord with all their heart and soul
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Post by Dave on Jun 4, 2020 8:33:46 GMT -5
You continue to speak in circles – answer some questions
1- Question – does God test man? You seem to deny this scripture – answer this question with a firm answer YES or NO I have offered – or can offer over 40 verses saying directly that God proveth /test man heart and soul My answer - I firmly say – YES – God test man Your answer – so far you deny this scripture
2- Question – Does God temp man directly? My answer – James says NO Your answer – you claim to agree
3- If God tempt man – but doesn’t do the temping Himself – then who does the tempting? My answer – archon - that is their function Your answer so far – is that man tempts himself – and there is no need for devils or demons
4- Question – can God be tempted / tested? My answer – NO way – James says it is impossible You claim that is exactly what satan does – opposes / tempts / test God and spoils all God’s plans Again – you deny scripture
5- Question – who is in control of the universe My answer – God Your answer – satan
6- Does satan obey God My answer – absolutely yes Your answer – only in the Book of Job, but that is FICTICTOUS word of God Again you deny scripture and cast doubt upon God’s word to prove your point
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 14:08:18 GMT -5
1- Question – does God test man?
Jeff Benner says : Grk#:3985 / pi-rad-zo (verb): Tempt Freq:&39 Heb#:5254 נסה / na-sah (verb): Test—A critical examination, observation, or evaluation; trial. Greek tempt In James 1:26 is same as tempt in Gen 22:1, when God tempted Abraham to sacrifice his Son.
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
There appears a direct contradiction in Scripture:
God tempted Abraham to sacrifice His Son on Mt Moriah.
James says GOD does not tempt man. Any testing or tempting James says comes from our lust, or sinning condition.
Strongs 5254 Nachah, in Ancient Hebrew, the letters read" "Over the Nations, the prickles of sin: Behold the Person"
This word is about humans, with lust or sinning condition.
Notice Strong's 7854 - Satan, in Ancient Hebrew, the letters read" The prickles of sin, cover, the nations" This word is also about sinning, but about how sin covers mankind. Notice the Ancient Hebrew meanings associated with tsinnah Strong's 6793.
The thorn bush "The prickles of sin, over the nations: Behold the Person"
Test "The letters read" "Over the Nations, the prickles of sin: Behold the Person"
Hate "The prickles of sin, over the nations, STRONG".
Thorn "Prickles of sin, over the nations".
But in Genesis 22:1 it says:
Ge 22:1 God did tempt Abraham, to sacrifice His Son on Mt Moriah. Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Here GOD tests His love response, whether the people love His teachings or not.
--------------------------------------- 1- Question – does God test man? You seem to deny this scripture – answer this question with a firm answer YES or NO I have offered – or can offer over 40 verses saying directly that God proveth /test man heart and soul My answer - I firmly say – YES – God test man
I would have to say YES - God test man
2- Question – Does God temp man directly? My answer – James says NO
God does not tempt us to SIN or do RA. Note my answer is different slightly to yours Dave.
3- If God tempt man – but doesn’t do the temping Himself – then who does the tempting? My answer – archon - that is their function
I would say SATAN tempts us to do RA. Since Satan has no omnipresence of His own, His fallen angels also tempt each human all over the world to do RA.
4- Question – can God be tempted / tested? My answer – NO way – James says it is impossible You claim that is exactly what satan does – opposes / tempts / test God and spoils all God’s plans Again – you deny scripture
GOD is not tempted to do RA. Satan does not tempt GOD to do RA. Only Satan does RA, and only within limits, especially if the person is under God's protection of love, such as Job was.
Not sure how you see an Opposer able to tempt GOD to do RA? Remember devil also called Satan tried to get the SON of GOD to do one RA, and Satan failed to do this. GOD doesn't do RA.
But you have GOD creating RA, byproducts of matter that become archons of RA. Somehow these RA things don't affect GOD, only MAN for whom they were created for?
5- Question – who is in control of the universe My answer – God Your answer – satan
My answer is GOD is. A creature cannot overtake a Creator. Yet you deny a creature being disobedient of GOD. What is disobedience? Something that does not exist in your theology? Where does disobedience come from?
6- Does satan obey God My answer – absolutely yes Your answer – only in the Book of Job, but that is FICTICTOUS word of God Again you deny scripture and cast doubt upon God’s word to prove your point
Absolutely NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!! Satan does not obey a single of the ten commandments of love. Satan has himself as the Most High Strong Authority Satan is his own idol. Satan is his own source of power Satan rests in his own time Satan hates family Satan hates life Satan hates sharing Satan hates sex Satan loves to be a liar Satan loves to covet self
Yes the Book of JOB is a real story, but no where does Satan obey GOD there because Satan loves GOD. Satan at best is only respectful. In court rooms two enemies can come together and at least talk in a respectful manner. Does not mean they are friendly...
Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Satan came to council because He was a king. You say Jews have only one King, that is GOD. Really? There are two kings on earth, King Opposer and King Rescue.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
All he has is in your power....only you cannot kill JOB.
Question: Did GOD ask Satan to kill Job's sons and daughters?
If you say yes, that makes GOD a murderer... If you say no, than your agreeing with me, that Satan hates GOD, and never obeys GOD at all, only at best relunctantly. Satan murdered the children, because Satan is a murderer from the beginning, Jesus says, and thus hates GOD.
Did not Baalim also relunctantly bless Israel too, ? Baalim hated God too. Look at the story, it's there with "satan" word for a reason.
Shalom
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Post by Richard on Jun 4, 2020 15:04:28 GMT -5
Answers: By Billy Graham billygraham.org/answer/does-god-sometimes-test-our-faith-by-letting-hard-times-happen-to-us-if-so-why-does-he-do-it-doesnt-he-already-know-whether-or-not-our-faith-is-genuine/Q:Does God sometimes test our faith by letting hard times happen to us? If so, why does He do it? Doesn't He already know whether or not our faith is genuine? A:Sometimes God does test our faith, just as He tested the faith of the ancient Israelites by allowing them to go through hard times in the wilderness, “in order to know what was in your heart” (Deuteronomy 8:2). Remember: If our faith is weak, it may not be obvious when life is going smoothly and we aren’t challenged in any way. But when hard times come, a weak faith will be revealed for what it really is: shallow and unable to help us through life’s difficulties. It may be anything: an unexpected illness, the death of a loved one, the loss of our job, or even a friend who turns against us. But when hard times happen, the true nature of our faith will be revealed. But God doesn’t test us because He doesn’t know how strong we are. Instead, He tests us because we don’t know how strong we are — and we’ll only realize it when times of testing come. The psalmist prayed, “Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts” (Psalm 139:23). None of us likes to go through hard times (and God isn’t necessarily behind them, even if He does allow them). But God can use them to show us our weaknesses. And when that happens, we need to ask God to help our faith grow. Testing should make us spiritually stronger — and it will as we turn it over to God. The Bible says, “Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials … so that you may be mature and complete” (James 1:2, 4).
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Post by Dave on Jun 4, 2020 16:42:25 GMT -5
Jas 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
There appears a direct contradiction in Scripture: God tempted Abraham to sacrifice His Son on Mt Moriah. The contradiction is only in your Catholic doctrine– Jews and Gnostics are fine with it and see no contradiction
James says GOD does not tempt man. Any testing or tempting James says comes from our lust, or sinning condition.
So now your saying that Abraham is the father of sin – Abraham tested himself Or God temps Abraham by means of a proxy – that would be an archon Or scripture is contradictory - more Catholic doctrine
Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Here GOD tests His love response, whether the people love His teachings or not. YES! – every day – but God doesn’t do the testing Himself – He has a staff for that
--------------------------------------- 1- Question – does God test man? I would have to say YES - God test man
2- Question – Does God temp man directly? My answer – James says NO
God does not tempt us to SIN or do RA. Note my answer is different slightly to yours Dave. So – if you do not Love the Lord with all your heart and soul – your not sinning or moving toward RA?
3- If God tempt man – but doesn’t do the temping Himself – then who does the tempting? My answer – archon - that is their function I would say SATAN tempts us to do RA. Since Satan has no omnipresence of His own, His fallen angels also tempt each human all over the world to do RA. YES! – archon – a whole army of them – and each one of them could be called a satan
4- Question – can God be tempted / tested? My answer – NO way – James says it is impossible You claim that is exactly what satan does – opposes / tempts / test God and spoils all God’s plans Again – you deny scripture
GOD is not tempted to do RA. Satan does not tempt GOD to do RA. Word game – God can’t be tempted – just accused / opposed / hated / and disobeyed So the story of satan and Jesus in the wilderness is more fiction Or Jesus is not God Or this is another factious portion of scripture we can ignore Or is this just another Catholic doctrine error
5- Question – who is in control of the universe My answer is GOD is. Then satan is doing exactly what God will him to do – correct Yet – you keep telling me that satan has his own will to disobey God – even hates God – oppose and accuser Yet – you insist that satan has changed God plan for the universe God intended TOV – the univers was perfect like God wanted but your satan insisted on making it RA and corrupt like satan wanted – satan’s will So – your satan is more powerful than God – can alter God’s Will and universe Satan powerful – God weak
6- Does satan obey God Absolutely NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!
So – when God told satan to accuse Job – satan refused? So – when God set limits for satan – satan didn’t obey those boundaries So – when God sent satan upon Israel – satan refused to go
Satan came to council because He was a king. You say Jews have only one King, that is GOD. Really? There are two kings on earth, King Opposer and King Rescue.
See – you have two Kings and two gods One Creator, who is King, and an angelic being doing God’s dirty work that you call a ‘sar’ prince One King and many princes
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. And according to you – satan refuse to obey In fact you say - absolutly diobey
Question: Did GOD ask Satan to kill Job's sons and daughters? NO – innocent bystanders of the contest Why does little Jimmy have to die – it is the hardship of the contest Perhaps little Jimmy had to die to teach another a lesson by God – a testing by God Just as Job’s children were Job’s test – not the children’s
Did not Baalim also relunctantly bless Israel too, ? Baalim hated God too. Look at the story, it's there with "satan" word for a reason. YES – God used a satan to advance His Will Satan is God’s tool And in the end who did Balaam obey – God Will always
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