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Post by Dave on Jan 21, 2020 14:56:49 GMT -5
Bible Study – satan
I will use the line by line – word for word approach to a word study of satan
Maybe there is some benefit to this approach
2Sa 24:1 (KJV)And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2Sa 24:1 (ASV) And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah.
Lord = Jehovah = Adonai = Strong’s H3068 = יְהֹוָה = yehôvâh
Using a Hebrew Bible – (TLV) – tree of life – very kabbalistic name
2Sa 24:1 Now the anger of Adonai again flared up against Israel, so He incited David against them saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
1Ch_21:1 Then satan stood up against Israel and incited David to count Israel.
Question? Does Strong’s H3068 = יְהֹוָה = yehôvâh – also = Strong’s H7854 = שָׂטָן = śâṭân?
Answer NO – Then is scripture wrong or incorrect? Or did God use satan to do his dirty work?
Job_1:6 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before Adonai, and the satan also came with them.
Satan presents himself to the Lord – Yes Sir –
Job_1:7 Adonai said to the satan, “Where have you come from?” The satan responded to Adonai and said, “From roaming the earth and from walking on it.”
In and on all creation including planet earth
Job_1:8 Adonai said to the satan, “Did you notice my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth—a blameless and upright man, who fears God and spurns evil.”
Did satan have any prior interest in Job - NO
Job_1:9 Then the satan responded to Adonai, saying, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
This is the question isn’t it – if you are a million dollar televangelist with 20 million followers – does this mean you know Christ personally – NO – It just means you are a good salesman
Job_1:12 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Everything he has is in your hand. Only do not extend your hand against him!” So the satan departed from the presence of Adonai.
God hands over Job to satan – here do your thing – with limits set by God
Job_2:1 Again the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Adonai, and the satan also arrived among them to present himself before Adonai.
Bane elohiym associated with satan and both standing before the Lord
Job_2:2 Adonai said to him, “Where are you coming from?” The satan answered Adonai, “From roaming the earth and from walking on it.”
Job_2:3 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Have you noticed My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and spurns evil. And he still holds firmly to his integrity, though you incited Me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
Job_2:4 The satan replied to Adonai saying, “Skin for skin! A man will give up all he has for his own life.
Job_2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!”
Satan is doing God’s will by testing Job – with limits
Job_2:7 So the satan departed from the presence of Adonai, and afflicted Job with painful boils, from the sole of his foot to the top of his head.
Satan obeyed God’s orders / commands and tested Job
Zec_3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the kohen gadol standing before the angel of Adonai and the satan, standing at his right hand to accuse him.
An angel of the Lord and satan together – not on opposite sides – but together
Satan job here is to accuse Joshua – look what Dave, Robert, Dillon, and everyone does alone in the dark
Zec_3:2 Adonai said to the satan, ‘Adonai rebukes you, the satan. Indeed Adonai, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebukes you. Is not this man a brand plucked out of the fire?’
Even tho satan has evidence to expose Joshua’s imperfections
God – tells satan to shut up – God has plucked Joshua out of the fire (Christ)
So far – satan is an obedient servant of the Lord – a good guy angel doing a bad job – for the Lord as instructed
This is the ahl and I completely agree with the Jewish view of satan being servant of the Lord
So let’s add the agl
Mat_4:10 Then Yeshua says to him, “Go away, satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship Adonai your God, and Him only shall you serve.’”
The Messianic Jews and Gnostic literature all say - THANK YOU SATAN for validating Christ before all mankind
Mat_12:26 If satan drives out satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
The agl suggest that satan is more than just one guy – and one is greater than the other
Mat_16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, satan! You are a stumbling block to Me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but the things of men.”
Mar_8:33 But turning around and looking at His disciples, He rebuked Peter. He said, “Get behind Me, satan! You are not setting your mind on the things of God, but the things of men.”
This is an important verse in understand Gnostic vocabulary
How can Peter be satan? Answer – Peter is doubting – Peter is hindering – and Peter is a man
If Peter can be Jesus’s satan – then I can be your satan – or you can be my satan – if we drag one another toward ra
Gnostic verse speak of no longer being a Christian, but becoming a Christ
Catholic have cow over this language!
But if you lead me to Jesus Christ are you not my savior?
Abraham, Joseph, King Cyrus are all images of Christ
It is just vocabulary that leaves out the role of the church
Mar_1:13 He was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by satan. And He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were taking care of Him.
Again – THANK YOU SATAN for validating Jesus as the one true Messiah
Mar_3:23 He called them and began speaking to them in parables: “How can satan drive out satan?
Mar_3:26 And if satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand but his end has come.
Luk_11:18 Now if satan is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say by beelzebul I drive out the demons.
Again – multiple levels of satan
Mar_4:15 These are the ones beside the road where the word is sown. Whenever they hear, satan comes quickly and takes away the word that has been sown in them.
Worldly temptation and doubt are pathways toward ra – suggested and promoted by the archon
Testing to see if you choose chata or mitzvah
Luk_10:18 And Yeshua said to them, “I was watching satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Rev 12:7
Luk_13:16 So this one, a daughter of Abraham incapacitated by satan for eighteen years, shouldn’t she be set free from this imprisonment on Yom Shabbat?”
Cruel hard world – the ‘sar’ of earth’s world – satan’s world – is a testing ground where the Contest plays out
Luk_22:3 Then satan entered into Judah, the one from Kriot, one of the twelve.
Luk_22:31 “Simon, Simon! Indeed, satan has demanded to sift you all like wheat.
Satan demand to test them all
Joh_13:27 And with that bit, satan entered into him. Then Yeshua tells him, “What you’re about to do, do quickly!”
Satan was a tool used to facilitate God’s plan of salvation for humanity – THANK YOU SATAN
Do you really think satan helped in the crucifixion to help his own defeat as in the resurrection
How does the resurrection help to defeat satan suggesting we choose chata?
Easy – the resurrection places satan in his place – the choice is obvious – there is an after life!
Act_5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Ruach ha-Kodesh and keep back part of the proceeds of the land?
The archon and satan suggest that you be greedy – worldly – not spiritual
Act_26:18 to open their eyes—so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of satan to God, that they may receive release from sins as well as a place among those who are made holy through trusting in Me.’
Open their eyes – education – truthful education
Rom_16:20 Now the God of shalom will soon crush satan under your feet. May the grace of our Lord Yeshua be with you.
The promise of Christ
1Co_5:5 you are to turn such a fellow over to satan for the destruction of his fleshly nature, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Yeshua.
Oops – proportional torment – satan and crew are in charge of the proportional torment – call it a period of cleansing – call it purgatory – whatever – proportional punishment with the hope od becoming purified
1Co_7:5 Do not deprive one another—except by mutual consent for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again, so that satan doesn’t tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Archons / satan temps / suggests – it is my self-control (which is altered once I realize I am standing right in front of GOD, Jesus Christ, and the HS an anyone else in the heaven that might me watching
2Co_2:11 so that we might not be outwitted by satan—for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
Be not ignorant of his schemes – how many Christians blow off all the alien and UFO community
My Pastor recommended a shirnk
2Co_11:14 And no wonder, for even satan masquerades as an angel of light.
Anything to deceive – like the Great Deciever bragged about ion the Koran - Allah
2Co_12:7 even in the extraordinary quality of the revelations. So that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me—a a messenger of satan to torment me, so I would not exalt myself.
A messenger of satan – satan has staff – there are multiple archons everywhere
1Th_2:18 For we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, more than once—but satan thwarted us.
Satan thwarted men
2Th_2:9 The coming of the lawless one is connected to the activity of satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
It is satan’s job to bring about Revelations – isn’t this the prophesy of the end times – doesn’t satan play an important role in creating the events – to facilitate God’s plan / God’s Will
1Ti_1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander—whom I have handed over to satan to be disciplined not to blaspheme.
Oops! – more proportional punishment ran by satan and satan and staff - archon
1Ti_5:15 For some have already gone astray after satan.
Drawn toward ra – movie actors / Hollywood / anyone trapped in this corporeal world – mammon over spirit – anything that is not God First (Seek ye First)
Rev_2:9 I know your tribulation and your poverty (yet you are rich), as well as the slander of those who say they are Jewish and are not, but are a synagogue of satan.
Rev_3:9 Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of satan—who say they are Jewish and are not, but lie—behold, I will cause them to come and bow down before your feet, so that they acknowledge that I have loved you!
I am not Jewish – maybe Jewish – sure feel more comfortable in a discussion / study with a Rabbi than your average preacher (how is just a religion salesman) My DNA = Jewish heritage (not dominate) – leading to investigate the correlation between Caucasians and the lost tribes of Israel – was Abraham or Isaac the first Caucasian?
Rev_2:13 I know where you live—where satan’s throne is. Yet you continue to hold firm to My name, and you did not deny your faith in Me even in the days of Antipas, My faithful witness, who was killed among you, where satan resides.
Where does satan reside – here – everywhere (Gnostic on Mar / Moon/ deep Space – other galaxies)
Rev_2:24 “But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold to this teaching and have not learned the so-called ‘deep things’ of satan—I place on you no other burden.
This is the KISS Clause – Hot Christians like us – vrs – Cold Christian who just attend church and believe
Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
How to read this verse – grammar
From the TLV – a Messianic Hebrew NT – I could make the argument that there is only one being discussed. The Great Dragon (Gnostic Chief Archon) – who is also called serpent, devil, and satan
In Greek – I would translate it as two beings – The dragon (Chief Archon ) and another being who is the serpent, devil, satan
Rev_20:2 He seized the dragon—the ancient serpent, who is the devil and satan—and bound him for a thousand years.
Here – there is only one being being seized the dragon – who is called serpent, devil, satan
Rev_20:7 When the thousand years has ended, satan shall be released from his prison,
Who is this being? – satan
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they shall be tortured day and night forever and ever.
Oops! Satan (by name) is missing from the final judgment
IMO – satan is an angel – an elohiym (heavenly being)
Satan is in the employ of God facilitating God’s plan / God’s Will on earth
It is a dirty job – but is released from prison in the end
This Gnostic view is consistent with this word study – and the Jewish view
All Catholics point to Isa 14 and Ezk 28 – making their satan a free willing anti-God opponent who is at war with God – some make their satan a creator god
Sorry – these two verses are not consistent with the bulk of the scriptural evidence
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 15:14:46 GMT -5
Nice to read a long study from you.
So your God approved of Job's losing his sons, etc, even though Satan, His good angel doing a bad job, actually makes GOD an accessory to murder, does it not?
If GOD and Satan are on he same side, and Satan is finally saved in the end, as you point out to me, than GOD doesn't mind doing ra personally, or appointing other angels to do His dirty work?
SO no longer is your GOD as God of love, He is also a God of hate too? Correct.
And your God actually orchestrates the Ra trials on others?
Please confirm my answers to your questions.
The first place you go wrong is changing the Hebrew word itself, from "opponent and oppose" to "friendly foe" and "divine contest".
My Bible says "opponent" "opposed" GOD causing "war" in heaven.
We have totally different meanings to the Hebrew word "satan".
Try doing you line on line thing with Baalim, and "satan"... its a story in Scripture or a reason. Was Baalim a evil prophet? Yes, why did God "satan" him?
To compel him to do as God says? Does He? yes, under duress. Does he return to his evil ways? yes. Does the NT call Baalim a good guy? no way.
If Satan was a "friendly" foe to Jesus on earth, why did Satan test Jesus so much?
Why was Satan interested in getting Jesus to sin?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 25, 2020 11:24:03 GMT -5
So your God approved of Job's losing his sons, etc, even though Satan, His good angel doing a bad job, actually makes GOD an accessory to murder, does it not? Absolutely – God orders the hit – satan is the hit man The Great White Throne Judgment where sinner are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death Your Ellen White says that all sinners have zero chance of proportional punishment – they are all going to die at the judgment - murder Exo 12:23 For Jehovah will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side-posts, Jehovah will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: God does not do it directly – He has a staff for that Proverbs 6:16 (KJV) These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. 1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from Jehovah troubled him. Deu 5:9 thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I, Jehovah, thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me; So – if my Great, great, great, great grandfather hated the Lord – the Lord still visiting iniquities upon me today – yes? or no? – is God lying here? is scripture wrong? or your catholic version of it? Quote me saying friendly or even foe satan is not God’s opponent he is man’s opponent / accusor I also never say ‘divine contest’ – it is the Great Contest being played out in corporeal reality ( a physical locality – 3D reality) – The Contest is between your choice of mitzvah or chataThese are the contestants – Christ and the HS representing a path of TOV This is their evidence – Creation, Rom 1:20, Psa 19:1 – The Exodus – the physical historical record of a nation called Israel – and the words of Jesus Christ – on the surface all of this evidence is simply subjective Man needs nothing more than this to rediscover his divine connection / relationship to his Creator Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, David, John the Baptist, and the man on the cross next to Jesus needed nothing more – The deception is objective physicality – feels good – public recognition – fame – wealth The archon do not make you sin, satan cannot make you sin – they just tempt you – the choice is yours – the contest is personal – and it is your contest – choose chata, which is easy – or- choose mitzvah which is often hard You ask and answer your own questionWas Baalim a bad –guy – you say YES – I say YES God “satan’ him – your choice of words, not satan sataned him – but God sataned him – God was the satan – God hindered him – God was Baalim’s hinderor – Gods was Baalim’s satan – Does He? yes, under duress – God is in control – absolutely Does he return to his evil ways? – you say yes – I say probably yes Does the NT call Baalim a good guy? no way – nor do I – do you? Why –did God satan (hinder/obstruct/ to prevent) Baalims action? To facilitate God’s plan for Israel – to facilitate God’s willHow do we answer the new Christian that askes – how do we know Jesus was perfect? Or – It was easier for Jesus to be considered perfect because He wasn’t temped as much as man? What is the answer – satan offered Jesus the entire planet and Jesus turned him flat THANY YOU SATAN FOR THE COMPLETE VAIDATION Even if I give you Ezk 28, Isa 14, and Rev 12 Those three verse do not fit with the 49 verses listed from the Hebrew preferred TLV Bible Its your turn – examine each verse and show me how satan hates God |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 16:10:53 GMT -5
It says in Scripture there was war in heaven.
Did this happen before man even existed?
So it's your problem to consider what war in heaven was? it says third of angels fell in this war?
49 verses listed from the Hebrew preferred TLV Bible
???Don't understand you???
I do not see "oppose" having anything to do with man, in this passage. War in heaven, over who ?
When you read Scripture, every verse matters. Don't be like Gordon Nehimiah and say the 3000 verses of Elohiym over rule the 3 verses he doesn't like.
Every verse has to make sense as a whole. However, if I add some of your Gnostic writings, nothing makes sense, the whole of Scripture collapses.
In that case something is wrong, for Scripture must be true.
It's got nothing to do with Catholic edition. In AD 55 the dead sea scrolls validate the Bible as we know it in the KJV, aside from a bigger collection of Hebrew.
Rev 12 shows us "oppose" does not just mean man, it also means against God.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 25, 2020 16:40:19 GMT -5
Even if I give you Ezk 28, Isa 14, and Rev 12 Those three verse do not fit with the 49 verses listed from the Hebrew preferred TLV Bible Its your turn – examine each verse and show me how satan hates God 49 verses listed from the Hebrew preferred TLV Bible???Don't understand you??? Bible Study – satanI will use the line by line – word for word approach to a word study of satan
Maybe there is some benefit to this approachUsing a Hebrew Bible – (TLV) – tree of life – very kabbalistic name 2Sa 24:1 Now the anger of Adonai again flared up against Israel, so He incited David against them saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” 1Ch_21:1 Then satan stood up against Israel and incited David to count Israel. Question? Does Strong’s H3068 = יְהֹוָה = yehôvâh – also = Strong’s H7854 = שָׂטָן = śâṭân?
Answer NO – Then is scripture wrong or incorrect? Or did God use satan to do his dirty work?How does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Job_1:6 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before Adonai, and the satan also came with them. Satan presents himself to the Lord – Yes Sir – How does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Job_1:7 Adonai said to the satan, “Where have you come from?” The satan responded to Adonai and said, “From roaming the earth and from walking on it.” In and on all creation including planet earthJob_1:8 Adonai said to the satan, “Did you notice my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth—a blameless and upright man, who fears God and spurns evil.” Did satan have any prior interest in Job - NOHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Job_1:9 Then the satan responded to Adonai, saying, “Does Job fear God for nothing? This is the question isn’t it – if you are a million dollar televangelist with 20 million followers – does this mean you know Christ personally – NO – It just means you are a good salesmanHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Job_1:12 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Everything he has is in your hand. Only do not extend your hand against him!” So the satan departed from the presence of Adonai. God hands over Job to satan – here do your thing – with limits set by GodHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Job_2:1 Again the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Adonai, and the satan also arrived among them to present himself before Adonai. Bane elohiym associated with satan and both standing before the LordHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Job_2:2 Adonai said to him, “Where are you coming from?” The satan answered Adonai, “From roaming the earth and from walking on it.” Job_2:3 Then Adonai said to the satan, “Have you noticed My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and spurns evil. And he still holds firmly to his integrity, though you incited Me against him to ruin him without any reason.” Job_2:4 The satan replied to Adonai saying, “Skin for skin! A man will give up all he has for his own life. Job_2:6 Adonai said to the satan, “Very well, he is in your hand—only spare his life!” Satan is doing God’s will by testing Job – with limitsHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Job_2:7 So the satan departed from the presence of Adonai, and afflicted Job with painful boils, from the sole of his foot to the top of his head. Satan obeyed God’s orders / commands and tested JobHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Zec_3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the kohen gadol standing before the angel of Adonai and the satan, standing at his right hand to accuse him. An angel of the Lord and satan together – not on opposite sides – but together
Satan job here is to accuse Joshua – look what Dave, Robert, Dillon, and everyone does alone in the darkHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Zec_3:2 Adonai said to the satan, ‘Adonai rebukes you, the satan. Indeed Adonai, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebukes you. Is not this man a brand plucked out of the fire?’ Even tho satan has evidence to expose Joshua’s imperfections
God – tells satan to shut up – God has plucked Joshua out of the fire (Christ)
So far – satan is an obedient servant of the Lord – a good guy angel doing a bad job – for the Lord as instructed
This is the ahl and I completely agree with the Jewish view of satan being servant of the LordSo let’s add the aglMat_4:10 Then Yeshua says to him, “Go away, satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship Adonai your God, and Him only shall you serve.’” The Messianic Jews and Gnostic literature all say - THANK YOU SATAN for validating Christ before all mankindHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Mat_12:26 If satan drives out satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? The agl suggest that satan is more than just one guy – and one is greater than the otherMat_16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, satan! You are a stumbling block to Me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but the things of men.” Mar_8:33 But turning around and looking at His disciples, He rebuked Peter. He said, “Get behind Me, satan! You are not setting your mind on the things of God, but the things of men.” This is an important verse in understand Gnostic vocabulary
How can Peter be satan? Answer – Peter is doubting – Peter is hindering – and Peter is a man
If Peter can be Jesus’s satan – then I can be your satan – or you can be my satan – if we drag one another toward ra
Gnostic verse speak of no longer being a Christian, but becoming a Christ
Catholic have cow over this language!
But if you lead me to Jesus Christ are you not my savior?
Abraham, Joseph, King Cyrus are all images of Christ
It is just vocabulary that leaves out the role of the churchHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Mar_1:13 He was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by satan. And He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were taking care of Him. Again – THANK YOU SATAN for validating Jesus as the one true Messiah How does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Mar_3:23 He called them and began speaking to them in parables: “How can satan drive out satan? Mar_3:26 And if satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand but his end has come. Luk_11:18 Now if satan is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say by beelzebul I drive out the demons. Again – multiple levels of satanHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Mar_4:15 These are the ones beside the road where the word is sown. Whenever they hear, satan comes quickly and takes away the word that has been sown in them. Worldly temptation and doubt are pathways toward ra – suggested and promoted by the archon
Testing to see if you choose chata or mitzvahHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Luk_10:18 And Yeshua said to them, “I was watching satan fall like lightning from heaven. Rev 12:7How does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Luk_13:16 So this one, a daughter of Abraham incapacitated by satan for eighteen years, shouldn’t she be set free from this imprisonment on Yom Shabbat?” Cruel hard world – the ‘sar’ of earth’s world – satan’s world – is a testing ground where the Contest plays outHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Luk_22:3 Then satan entered into Judah, the one from Kriot, one of the twelve. Luk_22:31 “Simon, Simon! Indeed, satan has demanded to sift you all like wheat. Satan demand to test them allHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Joh_13:27 And with that bit, satan entered into him. Then Yeshua tells him, “What you’re about to do, do quickly!” Satan was a tool used to facilitate God’s plan of salvation for humanity – THANK YOU SATAN
Do you really think satan helped in the crucifixion to help his own defeat as in the resurrection
How does the resurrection help to defeat satan suggesting we choose chata?
Easy – the resurrection places satan in his place – the choice is obvious – there is an after life!Act_5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Ruach ha-Kodesh and keep back part of the proceeds of the land? The archon and satan suggest that you be greedy – worldly – not spiritualHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Act_26:18 to open their eyes—so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of satan to God, that they may receive release from sins as well as a place among those who are made holy through trusting in Me.’ Open their eyes – education – truthful educationHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Rom_16:20 Now the God of shalom will soon crush satan under your feet. May the grace of our Lord Yeshua be with you. The promise of ChristHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?1Co_5:5 you are to turn such a fellow over to satan for the destruction of his fleshly nature, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Yeshua. Oops – proportional torment – satan and crew are in charge of the proportional torment – call it a period of cleansing – call it purgatory – whatever – proportional punishment with the hope of becoming purifiedHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?1Co_7:5 Do not deprive one another—except by mutual consent for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again, so that satan doesn’t tempt you because of your lack of self-control. Archons / satan temps / suggests – it is my self-control (which is altered once I realize I am standing right in front of GOD, Jesus Christ, and the HS an anyone else in the heaven that might me watchingHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?2Co_2:11 so that we might not be outwitted by satan—for we are not ignorant of his schemes. Be not ignorant of his schemes – how many Christians blow off all the alien and UFO community
My Pastor recommended a shirnk2Co_11:14 And no wonder, for even satan masquerades as an angel of light. Anything to deceive – like the Great Deciever bragged about ion the Koran - AllahHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?2Co_12:7 even in the extraordinary quality of the revelations. So that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me—a a messenger of satan to torment me, so I would not exalt myself. A messenger of satan – satan has staff – there are multiple archons everywhereHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?1Th_2:18 For we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, more than once—but satan thwarted us. Satan thwarted menHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?2Th_2:9 The coming of the lawless one is connected to the activity of satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, It is satan’s job to bring about Revelations – isn’t this the prophesy of the end times – doesn’t satan play an important role in creating the events – to facilitate God’s plan / God’s Will
How does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?1Ti_1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander—whom I have handed over to satan to be disciplined not to blaspheme. Oops! – more proportional punishment ran by satan and satan and staff - archonHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?1Ti_5:15 For some have already gone astray after satan. Drawn toward ra – movie actors / Hollywood / anyone trapped in this corporeal world – mammon over spirit – anything that is not God First (Seek ye First) How does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Rev_2:9 I know your tribulation and your poverty (yet you are rich), as well as the slander of those who say they are Jewish and are not, but are a synagogue of satan. Rev_3:9 Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of satan—who say they are Jewish and are not, but lie—behold, I will cause them to come and bow down before your feet, so that they acknowledge that I have loved you! I am not Jewish – maybe Jewish – sure feel more comfortable in a discussion / study with a Rabbi than your average preacher (how is just a religion salesman) My DNA = Jewish heritage (not dominate) – leading to investigate the correlation between Caucasians and the lost tribes of Israel – was Abraham or Isaac the first Caucasian?How does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Rev_2:13 I know where you live—where satan’s throne is. Yet you continue to hold firm to My name, and you did not deny your faith in Me even in the days of Antipas, My faithful witness, who was killed among you, where satan resides. Where does satan reside – here – everywhere (Gnostic on Mar / Moon/ deep Space – other galaxies)How does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Rev_2:24 “But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold to this teaching and have not learned the so-called ‘deep things’ of satan—I place on you no other burden. This is the KISS Clause – Hot Christians like us – vrs – Cold Christian who just attend church and believeHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. How to read this verse – grammar
From the TLV – a Messianic Hebrew NT – I could make the argument that there is only one being discussed. The Great Dragon (Gnostic Chief Archon) – who is also called serpent, devil, and satan
In Greek – I would translate it as two beings – The dragon (Chief Archon ) and another being who is the serpent, devil, satanHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Rev_20:2 He seized the dragon—the ancient serpent, who is the devil and satan—and bound him for a thousand years. Here – there is only one being being seized the dragon – who is called serpent, devil, satanHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Rev_20:7 When the thousand years has ended, satan shall be released from his prison, Who is this being? – satanHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they shall be tortured day and night forever and ever. Oops! Satan (by name) is missing from the final judgmentHow does this verse prove satan hates God and is God's opponent?IMO – satan is an angel – an elohiym (heavenly being)
Satan is in the employ of God facilitating God’s plan / God’s Will on earth
It is a dirty job – but is released from prison in the end
This Gnostic view is consistent with this word study – and the Jewish view
All Catholics point to Isa 14 and Ezk 28 – making their satan a free willing anti-God opponent who is at war with God – some make their satan a creator god
Sorry – these two verses are not consistent with the bulk of the scriptural evidence |
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Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2020 12:31:37 GMT -5
So it's your problem to consider what war in heaven was? it says third of angels fell in this war? A 1/3rd of all angels in heaven – created by God to serve and praise chose as your satan did to exersize their imajinary free will and follow in satan’s foot steps Why are not 1/3rd of all angels cast into the Lake of Fire? They are equal with satan – exercised their imaginary free will and choose to follow satan equally in his crime –
Why are not 1/3rd of the angels thrown into the lake of fire equal to satan?Where did they go? What happened to them? Are they simply forgotten to make catholic doctrine valid? Yes - It happened Yes -This happened before man ever existed. It happened between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 – during the GAP Rev_12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library(The Chief Archon is created by the HS) - Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter (Gen 1:3); and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.
This ruler, by being androgynous, made himself a vast realm, an extent without limit. And he contemplated creating offspring for himself, and created for himself seven offspring, androgynous just like their parent. And he said to his offspring, "It is I who am god of the entirety."
And Zoe (Life), the daughter of Pistis Sophia, cried out and said to him, "You are mistaken, Sakla!" – for which the alternative name is Yaltabaoth. She breathed into his face, and her breath became a fiery angel for her (Michael) ; and that angel bound Yaldabaoth and cast him down into Tartaros below the abyss.Your all-important war is over – it happened long ago Rev 12:8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. 1- this is a cosmic event – it is relevant to the entire cosmos – not just planet earth earth here is the earth of Gen 1:1 – corporeal reality = physical reality 2- That war (bustle, conflict, wrestle, battle) was over by Gen 1:4 3- Now it is the Great Contest being played out for humanity in corporeal reality Over the first expression that ‘God-is-not-absolute’ – the first expression of arrogance Yet – you insist that two words of one verse in Ezk over-ride all of scripture Curious |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 15:47:20 GMT -5
"Yet – you insist that two words of one verse in Ezk over-ride all of scripture
Curious
How do they override the others? please explain?
"Your all-important war is over – it happened long ago"
The first and only war in heaven you agree started, then you say ended? really?
Have the Gnostic writings led you astray here?
Do you understand what the war was about? and who did the waring? Do you understand a war is a sin before GOD?
Why are not 1/3rd of all angels cast into the Lake of Fire? They are equal with satan – exercised their imaginary free will and choose to follow satan equally in his crime –
This tells me you don't understand even now. Did the angels have free will or not?
Isn't cherub the only "angel" word we have in Hebrew?
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub,
Metaphor aside, this verse has "cherub" and "chata" in it. What does this mean?
Angels sinned.
"I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God" where does Scripture further say the same thing?
Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
...he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him...
Why was He cast out by GOD?
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
This sinning cherub wanted to be as high as the Father in heaven.
So does this religious theme also exist on earth?
Hab 1:11 Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god "eloah" "father-god".
Babylonian religion is about worshipping a "father-god" on earth.
Was this religious power in Paul's day?
2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
Some say Simon Magnus was the first pope of Rome, he was familiar with Babylonian ways, Greek ways and Christianity. And which creature is behind all this religion? The first cherub who first sinned before the Father.
nothing to do with imaginary free will...as you claim...
Hebrew word "satan" means to oppose... not man per se'... oppose the Father.
Now you show me where the Hebrew word "satan" doesn't mean oppose or opponent?
"Over the first expression that ‘God-is-not-absolute’ – the first expression of arrogance
What's arrogance go to do with this? It's arrogant not to follow Hebrew scripture?
All Catholics point to Isa 14 and Ezk 28 – making their satan a free willing anti-God opponent who is at war with God – some make their satan a creator god
Sorry – these two verses are not consistent with the bulk of the scriptural evidence
Jews make the same mistakes in other Scripture words too.
"Malak of YHWH"
since when does malak mean angel?
Malak means messenger for all contexts, some malaks can be cherubs. Some malaks can be humans, Some malaks can be members within elohiym. Jews would not consider this.
Your saying we accept the Hebrew we like and ignore the Hebrew we don't like.
A little wine for the sick stomach, so it's OK to drink alcohol? Easy huh?
Sorry – these two verses are not consistent with the bulk of the scriptural evidence
How are they not consistent? Where is your Bible texts?
Did the opponent oppose GOD?
Baalim ? no, under duress
Job ? no, under duress
What about Jesus? yes
Father gave opponent all powers to oppose His Son.
What would have happened if the Son had sinned?
The Son was fully GOD and fully MAN. Wow imagine the opponent getting this Being, all creature and all immortal, to sin, with the opponent who is all creature but not immortal.
A single sin would prove love is not absolute.
A single sin would prove the father is not absolute.
However did this GOD-MAN do a single sin? no
This is the only example we have of oppose and opponent in its fullest picture, yet you ignore this over others examples.
You say opponent was helping Jesus validate his claim to save others? really is that what opponent means "friendly foe" ?
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Is this statement agreeing with you? Opponents oppose. They are not friendly foes.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2020 20:53:28 GMT -5
"Yet – you insist that two words of one verse in Ezk over-ride all of scripture
Curious
How do they override the others? please explain?
There are 49 verses from a Hebrew preferred TLV Bible I asked you to show me how your two words over-ride the 49 verses that do not support your view I asked you to look at them –but you keep saying you don’t understand Absolutely not – Jews have 9 and Christians have 10 This is your doctrine – two verses Absolutely NOT! There are 49 verses from a Hebrew preferred TLV Bible I asked you to show me how your two words over-ride the 49 verses that do not support your view I asked you to look at them –but you keep saying you don’t understand War - G4171 - πόλεμος - From πέλομαι pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series): - battle, fight, war. Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars G4171 and rumours of wars: G4171 see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longMar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars G4171 and rumours of wars, G4171 be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longLuk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war G4171 against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longLuk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars G4171 and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Do these wars last forever – thousands of years long1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? G4171 Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longHeb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, G4171 turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longJas 4:1 From whence come wars G4171 and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longRev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; G4171 and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longRev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. G4171 Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longRev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war G4171 against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longRev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle G4171 of that great day of God Almighty. Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longRev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war G4171 against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longRev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: G4171 the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Do these wars last forever – thousands of years longRev 12:7 And there was war G4171 in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, SO – why do you insist this war last forever Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Is this statement agreeing with you? Yes it does - The Chief Archon is the father of lies because he was the first to arrogantly suggest that God-is-not-absolute |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 13:18:07 GMT -5
Rev 12:7 And there was war G4171 in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Dave: "SO – why do you insist this war last foreverRob: "Who said this war last forever? I didn't? God has given this war a finite time only. First it began in heaven, now it continues on earth, One day this war will end, as you have shown me. But look at what you have done to this war in heaven? Rob: "Did the angels have free will or not?
Dave: "Absolutely NOT! Explain than how you can have a war with angels in the first place? Rob: "Isn't cherub the only "angel" word we have in Hebrew?
Dave: "Absolutely not – Jews have 9 and Christians have 10Again you do not show any Hebrew verses with Hebrew words. So you don't answer my study on "satan" ? 23 verses using noun form Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's <'elohiym> anger <'aph> was kindled <charah> because he went <halak>: and the angel <mal'ak> of the LORD <Y@hovah> stood <yatsab> in the way <derek> for an adversary <satan> against him. Now he was riding <rakab> upon his ass <'athown>, and his two <sh@nayim> servants <na`ar> were with him. God was an opponent to Baalim. Nu 22:32 And the angel <mal'ak> of the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten <nakah> thine ass <'athown> these three <shalowsh> times <regel>? behold, I went out <yatsa'> to withstand <satan> thee, because thy way <derek> is perverse <yarat> before me: God was an opponent to Baalim. 1Sa 29:4 And the princes <sar> of the Philistines <P@lishtiy> were wroth <qatsaph> with him; and the princes <sar> of the Philistines <P@lishtiy> said <'amar> unto him, Make <shuwb> this fellow <'iysh> return <shuwb>, that he may go again <shuwb> to his place <maqowm> which thou hast appointed <paqad> him, and let him not go down <yarad> with us to battle <milchamah>, lest in the battle <milchamah> he be an adversary <satan> to us: for wherewith should he reconcile <ratsah> himself unto his master <'adown>? should it not be with the heads <ro'sh> of these men <'enowsh>? opponent or enemy as in a war 2Sa 19:22 And David <David> said <'amar>, What have I to do with you, ye sons <ben> of Zeruiah <Ts@ruwyah>, that ye should this day <yowm> be adversaries <satan> unto me? shall there any man <'iysh> be put to death <muwth> this day <yowm> in Israel <Yisra'el>? for do not I know <yada`> that I am this day <yowm> king <melek> over Israel <Yisra'el>? opponent or enemy 1Ki 5:4 But now the LORD <Y@hovah> my God <'elohiym> hath given me rest <nuwach> on every side <cabiyb>, so that there is neither adversary <satan> nor evil <ra`> occurrent <pega`>. opponent contrasted with ra 1Ki 11:14 ¶ And the LORD <Y@hovah> stirred up <quwm> an adversary <satan> unto Solomon <Sh@lomoh>, Hadad <Hadad> the Edomite <'Edomiy>: he was of the king's <melek> seed <zera`> in Edom <'Edom>. God stirs an opponent to Solomon 1Ki 11:23 And God <'elohiym> stirred him up <quwm> another adversary <satan>, Rezon <R@zown> the son <ben> of Eliadah <'Elyada`>, which fled <barach> from his lord <'adown> Hadadezer <Hadad`ezer> king <melek> of Zobah <Tsowba'>: God stirs an opponent 1Ki 11:25 And he was an adversary <satan> to Israel <Yisra'el> all the days <yowm> of Solomon <Sh@lomoh>, beside the mischief <ra`> that Hadad <Hadad> did: and he abhorred <quwts> Israel <Yisra'el>, and reigned <malak> over Syria <'Aram>. opponent 1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan <satan> stood up <`amad> against Israel <Yisra'el>, and provoked <cuwth> David <David> to number <manah> Israel <Yisra'el>. Unusual verse where opponent is not named Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day <yowm> when the sons <ben> of God <'elohiym> came <bow'> to present <yatsab> themselves before the LORD <Y@hovah>, and Satan <satan> came <bow'> also among <tavek> them. Unusual verse where opponent is not named, but appeared with GOD Job 1:7 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Whence <'aiyn> comest <bow'> thou? Then Satan <satan> answered <`anah> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and said <'amar>, From going to and fro <shuwt> in the earth <'erets>, and from walking up and down <halak> in it. Opponent walks up and down earth.... why? Job 1:8 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Hast thou considered <suwm> <leb> my servant <`ebed> Job <'Iyowb>, that there is none like him in the earth <'erets>, a perfect <tam> and an upright <yashar> man <'iysh>, one that feareth <yare'> God <'elohiym>, and escheweth <cuwr> evil <ra`>? In previous verse opponent contrasts with ra, here opponent also challenged with Job who avoids ra. Job 1:9 Then Satan <satan> answered <`anah> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and said <'amar>, Doth Job <'Iyowb> fear <yare'> God <'elohiym> for nought <chinnam>? Job 1:12 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power <yad>; only upon himself put not forth <shalach> thine hand <yad>. So Satan <satan> went forth <yatsa'> from the presence <paniym> of the LORD <Y@hovah>. Why is opponent called forth over ra, if opponent is not related to ra? (1) Either opponent is not opponent, thus nothing to oppose GOD (Dave's idea) (2) Or opponent opposes GOD over ra, thus GOD is NOT ra, but opponent is all about ra, the opposite of GOD. How is this option possible if GOD engineers ra? In the shadow experiment, God makes ra defined, but does not enter ra personally. And who moves towards or away from GOD? you do. And who else influences you to move? the opponent does. The word opponent, has to be opposing something about GOD. What is it, according to these verses? it has to be ra? This implies GOD is tov. Job 2:1 ¶ Again there was a day <yowm> when the sons <ben> of God <'elohiym> came <bow'> to present <yatsab> themselves before the LORD <Y@hovah>, and Satan <satan> came <bow'> also among <tavek> them to present <yatsab> himself before the LORD <Y@hovah>. Job 2:2 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, From whence <'ay> comest <bow'> thou? And Satan <satan> answered <`anah> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and said <'amar>, From going to and fro <shuwt> in the earth <'erets>, and from walking up and down <halak> in it. Job 2:3 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Hast thou <suwm> considered <leb> my servant <`ebed> Job <'Iyowb>, that there is none like him in the earth <'erets>, a perfect <tam> and an upright <yashar> man <'iysh>, one that feareth <yare'> God <'elohiym>, and escheweth <cuwr> evil <ra`>? and still he holdeth fast <chazaq> his integrity <tummah>, although thou movedst <cuwth> me against him, to destroy <bala`> him without cause <chinnam>. Notice ra is with opponent, opposing GOD who is with tov. Job 2:4 And Satan <satan> answered <`anah> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and said <'amar>, Skin <`owr> for skin <`owr>, yea, all that a man <'iysh> hath will he give <nathan> for his life <nephesh>. Job 2:6 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Behold, he is in thine hand <yad>; but save <shamar> his life <nephesh>. Why does GOD limit opponent with life? Because ra is about death. The opponent would have killed Job, as ra is all about death. Ra only has some living still in it because GOD limits the opponent. DO wars have rules or common respectful standards? Sometimes they do. Where do these limits or rules come from? From GOD who limits the opponent. Does this make the opponent a friend? no Job 2:7 ¶ So went <yatsa'> Satan <satan> forth <yatsa'> from the presence <paniym> of the LORD <Y@hovah>, and smote <nakah> Job <'Iyowb> with sore <ra`> boils <sh@chiyn> from the sole <kaph> of his foot <regel> unto his crown <qodqod>. opponent tortures Job, not allowed to kill Job, as ra demands. Ps 109:6 ¶ Set <paqad> thou a wicked man <rasha`> over him: and let Satan <satan> stand <`amad> at his right hand <yamiyn>. opponent is the right hand of wickedness Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed <ra'ah> me Joshua <Y@howshuwa`> the high <gadowl> priest <kohen> standing <`amad> before <paniym> the angel <mal'ak> of the LORD <Y@hovah>, and Satan <satan> standing <`amad> at his right hand <yamiyn> to resist <satan> him. opponent resists GOD, opposing GOD's right to save people Zec 3:2 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, The LORD <Y@hovah> rebuke <ga`ar> thee, O Satan <satan>; even the LORD <Y@hovah> that hath chosen <bachar> Jerusalem <Y@ruwshalaim> rebuke <ga`ar> thee: is not this a brand <'uwd> plucked <natsal> out of the fire <'esh>? (KJV) opponent resists GOD, opposing GOD's right to save people Now I could also go through the NT contexts on satan-noun form, meaning opponent. In summary the word opponent is associated with ra, pasha and therefore all things evil. In order to make the word work, such as Being must oppose GOD and his character in some way. Therefore GOD cannot be ra or pasha or evil in anyway. Dave your stand as a " Friendly Foe" rests on one verse, God creates ra. Such light defines ra, ie creates ra, but you cannot assume GOD personally directly or indirectly does ra. If you do this GOD is a god of love and hate,
of life and death, of follow commandments as well as not follow commandments. You also do not tell us why war started in heaven? Who was involved in this war? not angels because angels have no free will to disobey? You also have nothing to contrast GOD with... so there cannot be a testing of humans to choose tov and disdain ra... why would humans do this, if both tov and ra are both designed by GOD? makes no sense... you have nothing as an opponent, nothing to oppose, except your archons who test us to do ra? Why do ra? for what purpose? to see if we do tov? again for what purpose? If GOD is both ra and tov, than why do I have to move from ra to tov? You do not answer this question? However if GOD is always all tov, and the opponent is always all ra, than we have a divided war going on, for a finite time, began in heaven, continues on earth, but soon will end forever. I like to see love was once challenged by hate. This caused a war. The war is allowed to continue with limits until love wins and hate loses. Than love will only exist in heaven and on earth. Some how your ideas of love/hate being on the same side makes no sense. If you do the shadow experiment you find light does not enter umbra shadows, light only enter pre-umbra shadows. This natural thing is significant. It means GOD never does ra personally.
Than how does GOD do his strange act? Simple. Living is caused by the presence of divinity in relationship to matter, if divinity leaves the matter, the matter falls into dust. The text says "no wounding". if the wicked were left in heaven in all tov, this would by definition, be wounding them, hence they would feel guilt in the intense heat of GOD's presence, and they would automatically cease to exist. Create some umbra shadows, than switch on a flood light near the umbra shadow. What happens? the shadow ceases to exist, the person ceases to exist. The command "no murder" is "no wounding", no premeditating murder. God doesn't think anything, its the natural consequence of light. What about all those times GOD allowed children, women etc to die? Some things are hard to explain. Why are we as parents told to discipline children living under ra and tov? Because discipline prevents ra from growing. Love especially hard love in a world of ra, has to do some hard things. This is why the plough breaks up our pride. We are stiff necks so we need stiff neck loving at times. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 27, 2020 17:17:51 GMT -5
Talmud, Shabbat 88b-89a; As Moses retorted in his winning argument to the angels during his epic debate in heaven over who should receive the Torah. "It is written in the Torah 'Thou shall not murder,' 'Thou shall not commit adultery,' 'Thou shall not steal.'" Moses said. "Is there jealousy among you!? Do you have an evil inclination!? Obviously the Torah is not meant for you." But I suppose – the written words of Moses mean less to you than a woman associated with failed prophesies - or perhaps you will argue that Moses didn't understand his own Hebrew I don’t know how to have a war with large armies of angels on both side of the battle However First there was Gen 1:1
In in the GAP between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 … Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.
Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.
And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.Then there was Gen 1:4I have answered this question several times – I have posted three different Jewish Videos speaking directly to your question – but you fail to even acknowledge that I have answered your question You say - again I failed to show you what evidence I have - My response is again you failed to look Again you complete evade my 49 verses from the Hebrew preferred Bible TLV Instead you ask me 23 I am not threated – I will play Nu 22:22 - God was an opponent to Baalim. God was Baalim’s satan – correct (verb = function not personage)
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?Nu 22:32 - God was an opponent to Baalim. God was Baalim’s satan – correct (verb = function not personage)
How does this prove that satan is God sworn enemy?1Sa 29:4 he be an adversary <satan> to us opponent or enemy as in a war – OK - (verb = function not personage)
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?2Sa 19:22 And David <David> said <'amar>, What have I to do with you, ye sons <ben> of Zeruiah <Ts@ruwyah>, that ye should this day <yowm> be adversaries <satan> unto me? opponent or enemy to David – not God
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?1Ki 5:4 there is neither adversary <satan> nor evil <ra`> occurrent <pega`>. opponent contrasted with ra – Sure – a place of no temptation
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?1Ki 11:14 ¶ And the LORD <Y@hovah> stirred up <quwm> an adversary <satan> unto Solomon God stirs an opponent to Solomon Yes – God commands satan (noun = personage) to satan (verb = function) Soloman –
anit-Solomon NOT anti-God – rather completely obedient to God
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?1Ki 11:23 And God <'elohiym> stirred him up <quwm> another adversary <satan>, God stirs an opponent – Yes – God commands and satan (noun = personage) obeys
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?
1Ki 11:25 And he was an adversary <satan> to Israel opponent to Israel not God
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?1Ch 21:1 ¶ And Satan <satan> stood up <`amad> against Israel <Yisra'el>, and provoked <cuwth> David Unusual verse where opponent is not named – Regardless satan (noun = personage) was against Isread and David – NOT God
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?Job 1:6 ¶ Now there was a day <yowm> when the sons <ben> of God <'elohiym> came <bow'> to present <yatsab> themselves before the LORD <Y@hovah>, and Satan <satan> came <bow'> also among <tavek> them. Yes – satan (noun = personage) obeyed - he came when summoned
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?
Job 1:7 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Whence <'aiyn> comest <bow'> thou? Then Satan <satan> answered <`anah> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and said <'amar>, From going to and fro <shuwt> in the earth <'erets>, and from walking up and down <halak> in it. Uncle Billy was a the store yesterday – does theis make Uncle Billy anyone enemy?
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?Job 1:8 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Hast thou considered <suwm> <leb> my servant <`ebed> Job <'Iyowb God asked sastan (noun = personage) a question
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?Job 1:9 Then Satan <satan> answered <`anah> the LORD <Y@hovah>, and said <'amar>, Doth Job <'Iyowb> fear <yare'> God <'elohiym> for nought <chinnam>? Now satan (noun = personage) asked God a valid question
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?
Job 1:12 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power <yad>; only upon himself put not forth <shalach> thine hand <yad>. So Satan <satan> went forth <yatsa'> from the presence <paniym> of the LORD <Y@hovah>. God ordered the Hit – satan (noun = personage) obeyed
God gave satan (noun = personage) limites – God is in command
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?
Why is opponent called forth over ra, if opponent is not related to ra? To test man – by tempting man with ra – it is called the Great ContestJob 2:1, Job 2:2, Job 2:3, Job 2:7 ¶ So went <yatsa'> Satan <satan> forth <yatsa'> from the presence <paniym> of the LORD <Y@hovah>, and smote <nakah> Job opponent tortures Job, not allowed to kill Job, as ra demands. You are correct – satan (noun = personage) completely obeys God commands
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?Ps 109:6 ¶ Set <paqad> thou a wicked man <rasha`> over him: and let Satan <satan> stand <`amad> at his right hand <yamiyn>. opponent is the right hand of wickedness I have addressed this before – Jewish Kabbalah places the Right Hand as a position of importance
If you follow the Lord – Christ stands at your right
If you are a wicked man – who else is on your right -the position of importance – satan (noun = personage) is the wicked man has place him there because of who he worships – anything not the CreatorZec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed <ra'ah> me Joshua <Y@howshuwa`> the high <gadowl> priest <kohen> standing <`amad> before <paniym> the angel <mal'ak> of the LORD <Y@hovah>, and Satan <satan> standing <`amad> at his right hand <yamiyn> to resist <satan> him. opposing GOD's right to save people – this is satan’s function – to expose our weaknesses
In the trial of Joshua – the DA (accuser) – Joshua’s opponent – satan (noun = personage) job is to expose all of Joshua’s sin – as he exposes all our sins, each of us
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?
Zec 3:2 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Satan <satan>, The LORD <Y@hovah> rebuke <ga`ar> thee, O Satan <satan>; even the LORD <Y@hovah> that hath chosen <bachar> Jerusalem <Y@ruwshalaim> rebuke <ga`ar> thee: is not this a brand <'uwd> plucked <natsal> out of the fire <'esh>? I sure wish you understood this verse as a Christian
Even tho the DA in Joshua’s trial does his job well
The Judge (God) – plucked Joshua out of the fire of judgment – because God choose Joshua (Christ / salvation)
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2020 13:20:26 GMT -5
Shabbat 88a-b: Are We Obligated to Keep the Torah?
In the course of discussing how the Children of Israel received the Torah on Har Sinaiהר סיני - Mount Sinai, where Moses received the Ten Commandments in the desert of Egypt."Mount Sinai, the Gemara cites additional homiletic interpretations on the topic of the revelation at Sinai.
The Torah says, “And Mosesמֹשֶׁה - Moshe, chosen to lead the Jews out of slavery and Egypt. He received the 10 Commandments from God at Mt Sinai in the desert and gave the Torah to the Jewish people. He is considered to be the greatest of the prophets and the greatest of the Jewish leaders."Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the lowermost part of the mount” (Shemot 19:17). Rabbi Avdimi bar Ḥama bar Ḥasa said: the Jewish people actually stood beneath the mountain, and the verse teaches that the Holy One, Blessed be He, overturned the mountain above the Jews like a tub, and said to them: If you accept the Torah, excellent, and if not, there will be your burial. Rav Aha bar Ya’akov said: From here there is a substantial caveat to the obligation to fulfill the Torah. The Jewish people can claim that they were coerced into accepting the Torah, and it is therefore not binding. Rava said: Even so, they again accepted it willingly in the time of Ahasuerus, as it is written: “The Jews ordained, and took upon them, and upon their seed, and upon all such as joined themselves unto them” (Esterאֶסְתֵּר - Queen Esther, consort of Ahasuerus (Xerxes I) of Persia. Chosen to replace the truculent Queen Vashti, Hadassah of the Tribe of Benjamin became Esther, and inducted into the king's harem. Through a series of plots and twists, she becomes a voice and savior of the oppressed Jews in the kingdom - a story chronicled in the Book of Esther, in the Bible, One of the five Megillot, the Book of Esther and her story are read on the fast of Ta'anit Ester, during the holiday of Purim.Read more at Wikipedia."Esther 9:27), and he taught: The Jews ordained what they had already taken upon themselves through coercion at Sinai.
The RashbaRabbi Shlomo ben Aderet, also known as Solomon ben Abraham or RaSHBa (b. 1235, d. 1310). Spanish Talmudic commentator at Barcelona in the 13th century, referred to as "The Rabbi of Spain". A student of the Ramban and Rabbeinu Yonah, Rashba oversaw the translation of Rambam's commentaries on the Mishna into Hebrew.Read more in the Jewish Encyclopedia."Rashba challenged Rav Aha bar Ya’akov’s argument that the Jewish people can argue that they were forced to accept the Torah against their will. If this is the case, why were the Jewish people punished and exiled from their land for having violated the Torah? He explains that certainly the Jews’ continued existence in Eretz Yisrael is contingent on their fulfillment of the Torah’s commandments. In other words, it is explained that holding the uprooted mountain like a tub over their heads alludes to the abundance of love that God bestowed upon the Jewish people during the Exodus, in giving them the manna, etc. In response, the people said: “We will do, and we will hear.” Still, in their hearts the people did not accept the Torah on behalf of later generations, for whom life would proceed naturally, without the revelation of constant miracles.
You make claims Dave but you not make details of them, leaving me confused even more?
This is one Rabbi against another Rabbi? whom is correct? Why do you place a Rabbi as a Prophet or inspired person? yet your quick to condemn Mrs White? I would rather we read Hebrew only, not person's ideas.
Rob: "Explain than how you can have a war with angels in the first place?
Dave: "I don’t know how to have a war with large armies of angels on both side of the battle
Rob: No need to write further...you cannot answer an important question. Your theories fall down.
However First there was Gen 1:1
In in the GAP between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 … Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing.
Pistis, Sophia I read the whole book on her, you did not like this remember? How can Holy Spirit create something, alone without her other members being around? Do you have any Hebrew backing up this?
It is my understanding the worlds were created by Jesus, via the Holy Spirit channeling the Father's power as the Son spoke.
The Holy Spirit never created anything on it's own.
Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (holy Spirit) of his mouth. (KJV)
SO this Gnostic text is false and misleading my friend.
"and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow,"
How can shadows make Beings? Science show this? no, not possible. Yet this is saying the Holy Spirit is creating an opponent from the shadow....
"Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety."
So your saying the Holy Spirit created Satan, an opponent using her own powers?
"And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter;
Since when does the Holy Spirit create on her own? This violates Scripture:
Ps 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (holy Spirit) of his mouth. (KJV)
The Holy Spirit only does as Jesus-YHWH spoke for what to be done.
Dave: "You say - again I failed to show you what evidence I have -
My response is again you failed to look
I did look Dave, these other "words" are functions, not Being classes...
As the Holy One blessed be He created four winds (directions) and four banners (for Israel's army), so also did He make four angels to surround His Throne—Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael. Michael is on its right, corresponding to the tribe of Reuben; Uriel on its left, corresponding to the tribe of Dan, which was located in the north; Gabriel in front, corresponding to the tribe of Judah as well as Moses and Aaron who were in the east; and Raphael in the rear, corresponding to the tribe of Ephraim which was in the west.[16]
The Jews have weird understandings of messenger, as angels, do not see "malak YHWH" as another messenger of GOD within the GODHEAD, but as an angel, and write things like above...
Maimonides, in his Mishneh Torah, counted ten ranks of angels in the Jewish angelic hierarchy, beginning from the highest:[17][18][19][20]
Rank Angelic Class Notes
1 Chayot Ha Kodesh[21] See Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 10
2 Ophanim See Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 10
3 Erelim See Isaiah 33:7
4 Hashmallim See Ezekiel 1:4
5 Seraphim See Isaiah 6
6 Malakim Messengers, angels
7 Elohim "Godly beings"
8 Bene Elohim "Sons of Godly beings"
9 Cherubim See Hagigah 13b
10 Ishim "manlike beings", see Genesis 18:2 Daniel 10:5
So Dave I have looked, only don't agree. Maybe 10 functionally classes of cherub, but cherub is the only Hebrew word for angel. "
seraphim" means "burning" a function, not a Being per se'.
Well well, we got the same info... when you make functions into descriptions, it's Greek thinking. Hebrew see things are functions. The only Being in Hebrew is "cherub" all the other words are functions.
Eg "bane elohiym" is functional, "ben" is a Being. "elohiym" is functional too.
"seriphim" is functional, ie burning.
Isa 33:7 functional, ambassadors.
etc, etc
I sure wish you understood this verse as a Christian
Even tho the DA in Joshua’s trial does his job well
The Judge (God) – plucked Joshua out of the fire of judgment – because God choose Joshua (Christ / salvation)
How does this prove that satan (noun = personage) is God sworn enemy?
OK I get your point, let's try another approach:
"So the Holy Spirit creates an opponent from darkness to test humans so they move from darkness towards light". This is your theory of faith?
So WHY does the Holy Spirit create opponent in the first place?
WHY is there darkness at all?
God is light, there is no darkness about Him. Hence nothing but tov. No ra. So please explain where darkness ra came from? And why Holy Spirit creates a Satan opponent from the ra?
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Post by Dave on Jan 29, 2020 7:37:45 GMT -5
You make claims Dave but you not make details of them, leaving me confused even more? This is one Rabbi against another Rabbi? whom is correct? Why do you place a Rabbi as a Prophet or inspired person? yet your quick to condemn Mrs White? I would rather we read Hebrew only, not person's ideas. I am more attracted to – give more weight to – MOSES whose words have affected billions of people for 3500 years – versus an American pioneer woman followed a very small fraction of Christianity that overlooks her failed prophesies Joh 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. You are absolutely correct – there is only one Creator – finally we agree
God made all the TOV and God made all the RA – absolutelyHowever – James, the mortal brother of Jesus, one of the 12, and author in the agl says Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man: God dose it through the HS – correct Shadow = spirit – are you saying you do not accept the creation of our reality by spirit? I thought you just made the point that the HS created everything, by the will of the Father You sure seem to unable to think only one-dimensionally Why isn’t Jesus Christ a stick (branch) or fruit? Is Israel a fig tree? You use metaphors when you choose – but no one else can use them AND – I am not arrogant enough to tell the spirit realm what it is allowed to do NO! – again you choose to misrepresent my wordsThe HS made the Chief Archon – who is the first archon – who is the first to express the independent thought that – ‘God-is-not-absolute’ This is the choshek of Gen 1:2 – and it spread throughout creation – it multiplied – it grew Satan = a function – any being used to oppose / accuse / hinder / retard your/our awakening / our rememberingGod was Baalim’s satan – you keep making that example – God sataned BaalimHow do you know that each and every occurrence in any text about satan – it only mean one specific individual What if two women come onto you tempting you to sin – which one is satan? What if 25 demons urge you to sin – which one is the satan If I talk you into sinning – who is the satan Any being serving the lord as the accuser or opponent = a satan Is the Chief Archon the one and only satan – no Can he be a satan – sure – so can you Is satan the overseer placed to rule over the chaos in hades – I don’t know – maybe / maybe not HS using Her own powers – Her powers created everything – you just made that point Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi LibraryAnd envy engendered death; and death engendered his offspring and gave each of them charge of its heaven; and all the heavens of chaos became full of their multitudes. But it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being – after the pattern of all the things above – so that the sum of chaos might be attained.
Agreed - TrinityCol 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; We were once souls in heaven in full awareness of the Lord Upon conception our soul was placed within animal Mind-Body While in the womb and as an infant we were in communion with the Lord As we become carnal – we forgot this – because Mind-Body becomes dominate over soul Our mission as a soul – is to remember and help other souljourners to remember To become awakened to the truth – to renew our spiritual connection / relationship / communion Tell me Robert – in your world – how do we find God? If you are rich and happy – living in paradise – you are famous and admired by all your fellow man – how do you find God? Why can’t you just pass out Bibles – have people read it – and then they all automatically convert Your family all went to church – now some don’t – why? Wasn’t the religion message accurate? The Exegesis on the Soul- The Nag Hammadi LibraryI t is therefore fitting to pray to the father and to call on him with all our soul - not externally with the lips, but with the spirit, which is inward, which came forth from the depth - sighing; repenting for the life we lived; confessing our sins; perceiving the empty deception we were in, and the empty zeal; weeping over how we were in darkness and in the wave; mourning for ourselves, that he might have pity on us; hating ourselves for how we are now.
Again the savior said (cf Mt 5:4, Lk 6:12): "Blessed are those who mourn, for it is they who will be pitied; blessed, those who are hungry, for it is they who will be filled."
Again he said (cf. Lk 14:26), "If one does not hate his soul he cannot follow me." For the beginning of salvation is repentance. Therefore (cf. Acts 13:24), "Before Christ`s appearance came John, preaching the baptism of repentance."
And repentance takes place in distress and grief. But the father is good and loves humanity, and he hears the soul that calls upon him and sends it the light of salvation. Therefore he said through the spirit to the prophet (cf. 1 Cl 8:3), "Say to the children of my people, 'If your sins extend from earth to heaven, and if they become red like scarlet and blacker than sackcloth, and if you return to me with all your soul and say to me 'my Father!', I will heed you as a holy people.'"
Again another place (Is 30:15), "Thus says the lord, the holy one of Israel: "If you return and sigh, then you will be saved and will know where you were when you trusted in what is empty."
Again he said in another place (Is 30:19-20), "Jerusalem wept much, saying, 'Have pity on me.' He will have pity on the sound of your weeping. And when he saw, he heeded you. And the lord will give you bread of affliction and water of oppression. From now on, those who deceive will not approach you again. Your eyes will see those who are deceiving you."
Therefore it is fitting to pray to God night and day, spreading out our hands towards him as do people sailing in the middle of the sea: they pray to God with all their heart without hypocrisy. For those who pray hypocritically deceive only themselves. Indeed, it is in order that he might know who is worthy of salvation that God examines the inward parts and searches the bottom of the heart. For no one is worthy of salvation who still loves the place of deception.DUH – angels are named for their function Satan is not one single guy – it is any guy functioning as satan You say God only has generals in his army – no captains – no majors – no sergeants or privates The demons from hell and evil spirits are cherubs – every being in the heavens are only cherubs Very one dimensional – a very small spirit realm indeed This thread was started to explore who does satan oppose / accuseI have dealt with my 49 verses I have answered you 23 verses Why do you refuse to go through each line and explain to me how each line represents a satan that is anti-God or opposes God – or even disobeys God You don’t because you Can’t – because satan is not God’s opponent in a war Satan is God’s obedient servant helping God facilitate God’s plan Please prove to me that satan is God’s opponet – here are the versesEven if I give you Ezk 28, Isa 14, and Rev 12 Those three verse do not fit with the 49 verses listed from the Hebrew preferred TLV Bible Its your turn – examine each verse and show me how satan hates God 49 verses listed from the Hebrew preferred TLV Bible???Don't understand you??? Bible Study – satanI will use the line by line – word for word approach to a word study of satan
Maybe there is some benefit to this approachUsing a Hebrew Bible – (TLV) – tree of life – very kabbalistic name "Yet – you insist that two words of one verse in Ezk over-ride all of scripture
Curious
How do they override the others? please explain?
There are 49 verses from a Hebrew preferred TLV Bible I asked you to show me how your two words over-ride the 49 verses that do not support your view I asked you to look at them –but you keep saying you don’t understand Again you complete evade my 49 verses from the Hebrew preferred Bible TLV Instead you ask me 23 I am not threated – I will play |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 13:46:18 GMT -5
I am more attracted to – give more weight to – MOSES whose words have affected billions of people for 3500 years – versus an American pioneer woman followed a very small fraction of Christianity that overlooks her failed prophesies
If you did give weight to Moses, you would quote Moses Hebrew back to me, but you don't. You give me Gnostic stuff instead.
If you want to test EGW on a so called failed prophecy, pick one and let's discuss it, rather than mock, without studying the prophecy. Don't take people's word for it.
Rob: "So your saying the Holy Spirit created Satan, an opponent using her own powers?
Dave: "NO! – again you choose to misrepresent my words
The HS made the Chief Archon – who is the first archon – who is the first to express the independent thought that – ‘God-is-not-absolute’
Now your confusing the issue. Hebrew word "Satan" means "oppose or opponent"
so you give it a new Greek name "chief Archon". You have just changed the Hebrew into Greek.
"The HS made the Chief Archon – who is the first archon – who is the first to express" if that isn't an opponent, I don't know what is. I am calling this thing (Greek chief archon) by it's Hebrew word, "satan".
Your Gnostic literature does not answer the question WHY did the Holy Spirit create this "CA" (chief archon)? It was a half page of quotes... nothing there to WHY?
Is the Chief Archon the one and only satan – no
Can he be a satan – sure – so can you
Is satan the overseer placed to rule over the chaos in hades – I don’t know – maybe / maybe not
HS using Her own powers – Her powers created everything – you just made that point
While there is only ONE CA, there are many other archons. Hence many satans according to you. Yes fallen angels fell with Satan, the first cherub who sinned. But you don't have cherub sinning. You can't explain a war in heaven.
You create a brand new Being arising from ra, called the CA, and the CA becomes the source of RA, created by the Holy Spirit.
I never said the Holy Spirit creates. I said Jesus YHWH spoke the words, and the Holy Spirit functioning as a medium became a conduit for those words, using the power of the Father, did as those words spoken wanted. It's a community effort all the time, every time.
Think of a battery, can the + create on its own? no. Can the - create on it's own? no. only when the Son of GOD connects a wire between the two, the two energize each other, and love sparks do as the Son of GOD directed. That is how I see love from GOD working, more like a divine battery.
SO no member of GOD on their own can create without other members of the Godhead being involved, its a community thing all the time.
SO when you say from Gnostic writings, the Holy Spirit alone created the CA from darkness... its wrong. IMO
WHY does the HS create the CA in the first place? WHY create RA in the first place? You don't answer these questions.
All your "hoo har" over 49 verses verses 23, doesn't matter, I need only one verse, apart from Ezek and Isa, I have Rev 12. There was war in heaven?
So perhaps I answer this for you. The HS created the war in heaven when she created the CA for the first time, making RA for the first time?
You say GOD is all TOV but the HS created the RA? Doesn't this mean GOD is both TOV and RA?
I thought light banished darkness? SO what is darkness to you?
There should be no darkness in light, yet for you there is?
What a strange GOD you serve?
How about quoting Moses Hebrew to me, rather than Greek Gnostic writings from Simon Magnus, its confusing? Hebrew has to make sense.
SO this war in heaven, before man ever existed, where did this war come from?
And saying I don't know, doesn't cut it... it affects your argument's... they fall like a pack of cards...
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 29, 2020 16:23:50 GMT -5
I did straight from the Talmund I have asked you several times – if Israel’s return and the rebuilding if Jerusalem is prophetic or not Still awaiting your answer All I can report is what Jesus told his disciples after his resurrection The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library… ; and all the heavens of chaos became full of their multitudes. But it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being … so that the sum of chaos might be attained.Authoritative Teaching - The Nag Hammadi LibraryHe, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists. All I can report is what Jesus told his disciples after his resurrection The war – the choshek came from the ‘first expression that God-is-not-absolute’ This was the original sin – the original lie – spoken by a by-product of creation The First Archon – therefore the Chief Archon And it multiplied / spread from there So the opponent is only an opponent to Job, in Job's story? Fair enough
So where would you go looking to see if "opponent" actually "opposes" GOD?
Line upon line, here and there, remember, how to read Scripture? The word satan is not even used in Ezk or Isa verses Ezk is about the King of tyer Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations! … Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall gaze at thee, they shall consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, Isa 14 is about the MAN - Cyrus Rev 12 – proves that the war is over in heaven – it was over long ago – now it is a Contest for man |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 3:06:41 GMT -5
You write well Dave. It's your theory of faith, and you stick to it.
Personally I cannot accept it.
I do use line upon line, yet you say
The word satan is not even used in Ezk or Isa verses
Ezk is about the King of tyer
You know this isn't true. King Tyre isn't a cherub is he?
How much thinking do you have to do? Obviously cherub sinned, because the Hebrew says so. Saying it's a metaphor doesn't change the Hebrew words here, only the human would won't accept the text.
And your logic is truly illogical to say the least:
"by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being … so that the sum of chaos might be attained"
So the Father wanted the Holy Spirit to create darkness, ra and the chief archon, who among many other archons become satans for mankind to test us.
And these Beings are a brand new creature, unlike cherubs, who don't sin and don't have free will?
Problem is; no OT text naming archon in Hebrew exists, as a Being, from Creation? No text at all. It's a Greek word you use, the Hebrew is "sar" meaning "prince" or "first"...
If the Father created RA as well as TOV, why ask man to move from RA to TOV?
Can you answer that?
If the Father kills and murders, why can't I?
If the Father hates as well as loves, why can't I do the same?
Your logic makes no sense. Not even close. I am surprised Jews follow this too.
How can you be saved even? Saved from what? RA? hang on, God created RA, so how can I be saved from RA, if I didn't ask to be born into RA?
A lot of wicked people with RA are going to question GOD saying if you created RA, why do you expect me to move away from RA?
Salvation is a Hebrew word that means "rescue", but I have to ask you, rescued from what? You cannot answer RA or TOV, because these qualities are created by GOD. SO there is no rescue in your GOD, no need for salvation.
This testing thing makes no sense if GOD is both RA and TOV. It only makes sense if GOD is only all TOV, and the opponent is all only RA. Otherwise there is no need of rescue.
You have been deceived my friend, Satan would love these Gnostic writings because it makes no angel ever sinning, and makes RA all GOD's fault.
Shalom
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