The Sophia of Jesus Christ (50-150 AD) Question (SOLVED)

[rakovsky]

Question: How would you interpret the underlined statement in the passage below from the Sophia of Jesus Christ?

The Sophia of Jesus Christ is the fourth book in Codex III of the Nag Hammadi Library. The following is from Douglas Parrot's translation:

Mary said to him: "Holy Lord, where did your disciples come from, and where are they going, and (what) should they do here?"

The Perfect Savior said to them: "I want you to know that Sophia, the Mother of the Universe and the consort, desired by herself to bring these to existence without her male (consort). But by the will of the Father of the Universe, that his unimaginable goodness might be revealed, he created that curtain between the immortals and those that came afterward, that the consequence might follow ... [BG 118:] ... every aeon and chaos - that the defect of the female might <appear>, and it might come about that Error would contend with her. And these became the curtain of spirit. From <the> aeons above the emanations of Light, as I have said already, a drop from Light and Spirit came down to the lower regions of Almighty in chaos, that their molded forms might appear from that drop, for it is a judgment on him, Arch-Begetter, who is called 'Yaldabaoth'. That drop revealed their molded forms through the breath, as a living soul. It was withered and it slumbered in the ignorance of the soul. When it became hot from the breath of the Great Light of the Male, and it took thought, (then) names were received by all who are in the world of chaos, and all things that are in it through that Immortal One, when the breath blew into him. But when this came about by the will of Mother Sophia - so that Immortal Man might piece together the garments there for a judgment on the robbers - <he> then welcomed the blowing of that breath; but since he was soul-like, he was not able to take that power for himself until the number of chaos should be complete, (that is,) when the time determined by the great angel is complete.

"Now I have taught you about Immortal Man and have loosed the bonds of the robbers from him. I have broken the gates of the pitiless ones in their presence. I have humiliated their malicious intent, and they all have been shamed and have risen from their ignorance. Because of this, then, I came here, that they might be joined with that Spirit and Breath, [NHC III continues:] and might from two become one, just as from the first, that you might yield much fruit and go up to Him Who Is from the Beginning, in ineffable joy and glory and honor and grace of the Father of the Universe.

Source: www.gnosis.org/naghamm/sjc.html

Clarence Wilson's translation goes:

But these, when they came to be in the will of the Mother, Sophia, so that Immortal Man might piece together the garments there, were condemned as robbers, and they welcomed the blowing from that breath. But since he is psychical, he was not able to receive that power for himself until the number of chaos is complete and when the time that is determined by the great angel is complete.

Source: One God One Word: The Truth about the Knowledge and Worship of God, by Clarence G. Wilson

My guess is that it refers to the End Times and means that the Savior wasn't able to take for himself the power to resurrect all the dead until the time of the great angel is complete. The blowing of the breath probably refers to the giving of life, like in God breathing life into man in Genesis. Piecing together the garments probably refers to assembling bodies for beings to live in, because "garments" in early Christian thought could refer to bodies. The great angel might refer to Satan or another leading hostile angel, since in the Bible (eg. in Isaiah and the Book of Revelation), God's victory over Satan is associated with God's resurrection of the dead. That is, in the End Times, God defeats Satan and then resurrects the dead into a new, purified realm.

What do you think?

[Dave]

the End Times - the end of this aeon anyway

the Savior wasn't able - Correct, with clarification - I fully understand your point - but the term 'wasn't able" is correct if meaning that the Savior withheld action for the purpose of forwarding God's will. Measured restraint awaiting the correct timing.

until the time of the great angel is complete - Parallel theme -- God gives the land to Abram's decendents but they would have to wait 400 years to take possession - why - Gen 15:16 (ASV) ... for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full.

The blowing of the breath - (Gen 2:7) the garments = bodies / the 3D form our souljorn reside in - pawns in the big game

The great angel might refer to Satan or another leading hostile angel,

My take on the difference -

Hostile angel - The Chief Archon and his created children - any Archon - Jinn - Catholic principalities
These guys supply the chaos - the deception - the misdirection

Satan - is a verb in Hebrew - it means to accuse - in noun form Satan is the accuser
In the story of Job - the 'accuser' could have been any elohiym God chose to do His dirty work - even an Archon

[rakovsky]

Part of what I am not sure about is what "that power" in the underlined statement is. I sense that it refers to the power to blow breath into people, which is like God blowing breath into Adam in the beginning of Genesis. The idea could be that the Immortal Man (Christ) doesn't have the power to give people "breath" (ie to resurrect them) until a certain apocalyptic, chaotic time is fulfilled.

[Dave]

It is fascinating that although Col 1:16 and John 1:1-4 that everything was created through Christ
Gen 2:7 makes the point that it was specifically Jehovah God that did the breathing

until a certain apocalyptic, chaotic time is fulfilled – YES! - Timing
Mat 24 Christ does not know when only the Father

[rakovsky]

Let me address the statement piece by piece:

Douglas Parrot's translation:
But when this came about by the will of Mother Sophia - so that Immortal Man might piece together the garments there for a judgment on the robbers - <he>[Immortal Man] then welcomed the blowing of that breath; but since he was soul-like, he was not able to take that power for himself until the number of chaos should be complete, (that is,) when the time determined by the great angel is complete.

For reference, A. Moma's translation from Coptic into Russian (per my translation into English) goes:

But when all this occurred by the will of Mother Sophia - so that Immortal Man could gather together Garments for the condemnation of the robbers - then he summoned the Blowing of this Breath, but from the time that he became soul-like, he was not able to take to himself this Power until so long as the Number of Chaos will not be fulfilled, that is, as long as the time set out by the Great Angel will not be fulfilled.
apokrif.fullweb.ru/nag_hammadi/sophia_iisus.shtml

"This"/"All this" in "when this came about" refers to the preceding sentence's underlined event: "When it ['That drop'] became hot from the breath of the Great Light of the Male, and it took thought, (then) names were received by all who are in the world of chaos, and all things that are in it through that Immortal One, when the breath blew into him."

"Mother Sophia" is the divine Wisdom who the text says is "the Mother of the Universe and the consort" of Immortal Androgynous Man.

"Immortal Man" is the Savior, since earlier in the text, the Savior says,

"From now on, I am the Great Savior. For he is immortal and eternal... I want you to know that he who appeared before the universe in infinity, Self-grown, Self-constructed Father, being full of shining light and ineffable, in the beginning, when he decided to have his likeness become a great power, immediately the principle (or beginning) of that Light appeared as Immortal Androgynous Man, that through that Immortal Androgynous Man they might attain their salvation and awake from forgetfulness through the interpreter who was sent, who is with you until the end of the poverty of the robbers. And his consort is the Great Sophia..."

"Garments" are the flesh or body in which the soul is "clothed." So for instance in the Apocryphon of John, after Adam received breath/pneuma, Archons

brought him (Adam) into the shadow of death, in order that they might form (him) again from earth and water and fire and the spirit which originates in matter, which is the ignorance of darkness and desire, and their counterfeit spirit. This is the tomb of the newly-formed body with which the robbers had clothed the man, the bond of forgetfulness; and he became a mortal man.
Wisse's Translation, www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

ie., in the Apocryphon of John, the "robbers" "clothed" Adam with a newly-formed body when the Archons threw him into the "lowest region of all matter."

"There" in the phrase "piece together the garments there" refers to "the world of chaos." It is mentioned in the preceding sentence in the context of "names were received by all who are in the world of chaos, and all things that are in it through that Immortal One". Those in the "world of chaos" received names and "garments" (bodies).

"The robbers" are "powers that created or control the material realm", according to Philip Harland (https://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2005/10/13/sophias-mistake-the-sophia-of-jesus-christ-and-eugnostos-nt-apocrypha-16/). In The Reception of Luke and Acts in the Period Before Irenaeus, Andrew Gregory writes that the "robbers" "apparently" refers "to those who imprison the soul in its corporeal existence".
In the Apocryphon of John, the "robbers" are "the angels and demons" who made Adam's "natural body" and clothed him with a material, earthly body. In the Sophia of Jesus Christ, "the interpreter who was sent", through whom a multitude of self-begotten ones "might attain their salvation and awake from forgetfulness", "is with you until the end of the poverty of the robbers." Also, the Savior says, "I came from the places above by the will of the great Light, (I) who escaped from that bond; I have cut off the work of the robbers".

"That breath" refers to "the breath of the Great Light of the Male", the breath that made the drop from Light and Spirit hot. "That drop revealed their molded forms through the breath, as a living soul." "The breath blew into" the "Immortal One". "Breath" in this context refers to a life-giving power, as in the phrase "everything that has breath" (Psalm 150:6). Breath in Greek (psychos) also means "soul", and in Genesis, God "breathed" into Adam to make him a "living being" or a "living soul" ("Le-nephesh hayyah" in Hebrew). In Sophia of Jesus Christ, the Immortal One "welcomed the blowing of that breath", which blew into the Immortal One. George Macrae comments about the connection between Sophia and "breath" in Jewish and Gnostic thought in general:

Sophia is joined in intimate union with God: she is is breath, emanation, reflection, image (Wisdom of Solomon vii:25-26)... She is... a 'breath of the power of God,' for Sophia breathing power into creation is a favorite theme of the Gnostic cosmogonies. In "On the the Origin of the World", for example, the result of Sophia's abortive effort to emanate is a shapeless, lifeless mass 'with no pneuma [spirit] in it' until she breathes upon it to give it the form of the Demiurge; her breath binds him and expels him to the underworlds; and finally, she breathes life into Adam. ww3.haverford.edu/religion/courses/222a/sophiamyth.pdf

I feel like this doesn't add much to the use of "breath" in Sophia of Jesus Christ though beyond a plain reading, in which "breath" seems to be a power that gives life like in Genesis. A few sentences later in Sophia of Jesus Christ, "Spirit" is mentioned next to Breath:

Now I have taught you about Immortal Man and have loosed the bonds of the robbers from him. I have broken the gates of the pitiless ones in their presence. I have humiliated their malicious intent, and they all have been shamed and have risen from their ignorance. Because of this, then, I came here, that they might be joined with that Spirit and Breath...

The Immortal Man being "Soul-like"/"Psychical" could refer to his status of the breath of the Great Light of the Male having blown into him, as it says, "names were received by all who are in the world of chaos, and all things that are in it through that Immortal One, when the breath blew into him."

"That power" refers to the Immortal Man's power to piece together "garments" (bodies), for a few reasons:
(1) One of the Savior's main goals in such Christian Gnostic writings is to bring salvation whereby the people whom he saves achieve bodies of light and ascend to higher aeons. (See the entry for "Garments" in: "A Glossary of Gnostic Terms: G - L", www.gnosticq.com/az.text/glos.gl.html)
(2) The context of the sentence tends to point to it being the power to piece together "garments". To paraphrase: "when this came about... so that Immortal Man might piece together the garments there, he summoned/welcomed the blowing of that breath; but since he was soul-like, he was not able to take that power for himself until the number of chaos should be complete..." In other words, when the event occurred so that the Savior could piece together the garments, he summoned the blowing, but wasn't able to take that power for himself until the number of chaos was complete. The power that the Savior is openly intended to perform is piecing together garments.
(3) "Sophia of Jesus Christ" ends with the Savior declaring, "I have given you authority over all things as Sons of Light, that you might tread upon their power with your feet." Here the Savior refers to the "power" of the "Arch-Begetter's"/Demiurge's angels who created Adam's earthly material body. The Savior's declaration beings to mind the Patristic-era baptismal ritual of stepping on the initiate's clothes. It also recalls te Gospel of Thomas' Saying #37, which apparently refers to trampling one's "garments" (physical bodies) as part of salvation:

His disciples said, "When will you be shown forth to us and when shall we behold you?" Jesus said, "When you strip naked without being ashamed, and take your garments and put them under your feet like little children and tread upon them, then [you] will see the child of the living.

(4) While "That power" could grammatically refer to the power of blowing breath. But this would not really make sense in the context. First, some of the people whom the Savior seeks to save already have breath and souls. Second, the passage says that he "he was not able to take that power for himself" "since he was soul-like/psychical". The Greek word "psych-" here shares a root meaning with "breath", and so it doesn't make much sense that his being "psychical" would prevent him from taking the power of blowing breath.

"Chaos" refers to the created realm as distinct from Hades. This is because whereas the rabbis saw the world as created ex-nihilo, the Gnostics saw it as Chaos that a Deity formed. The Gnostic Gospel of the Egyptians/Book of the Great Invisible Spirit, pairs Chaos as distinct from Hades:

After five thousand years, the great light Eleleth spoke: "Let someone reign over the chaos and Hades." And there appeared a cloud whose name is hylic Sophia [...] She looked out on the parts of the chaos, her face being like [...] in her form [...] blood.

The "Number of Chaos" must refer to the time for which the Chaos is to last, or which the world is to last in a chaotic state. One reason is that the sentence explains that the number of Chaos means the "time" determined by the Great Angel. Another reason is that the Sophia of Jesus Christ refers to the limit for all who appear in Immortal Man to exercise their desire. ("Now Immortal Man revealed aeons and powers and kingdoms, and gave authority to all who appear in him, that they might exercise their desires until the last things that are above chaos.")

The Great Angel seemed perhaps to refer to the Savior for these reasons:
(1) The opening says that the resurrected Savior's "likeness resembles a great angel of light." Moma translates this as: "his Image recalled a/the Great Angel of Light." This is the only other time that the term "great angel" is used. He is also called the "Great Savior", and his consort is called "Great Sophia".
(2) Also in the beginning part, Immortal Man/the Savior gave authority to those who appear in him to exercise it for a limited time "until the things that are above chaos". This bears some resemblance to the role of the "Great Angel" who determines the time limit that serves as "the number of Chaos", since both figures set a time limit that is related to Chaos- either for the authority of the things above chaos or for the "number of Chaos."
(3) Immortal Man, as a heavenly, supernatural ruler has the power to set a time limit related to Chaos, whereas the Demiurge who created the Chaos is not in ultimate control or said to set a limit to the realm of Chaos over which he has authority.
(4) Even if either the Demiurge or Satan could be considered a Great Angel, they would not be the only one. The Gnostic Gospel of the Egyptians refers to "the great angel Gamaliel," the "great angel Sakla," and the "great angel Hormos."
(5) Saying that the Savior's likeness "resembles" a "great angel" does not necessarily imply that he was not a "great angel" for a Gnostic Christian audience. In a common Christian reading of the Book of Daniel, "One like unto a Son of Man" (Daniel 7:13) actually is the Messianic "Son of Man".
(6) In Christianity, Christ the Word of God is considered both God and an angel. The terms are not in conflict. For instance, in Genesis 16:10-13 and some other places in the Old Testament, the "Angel of the Lord" is also "the Lord." The Hebrew word for angel, malak, refers also to a messenger, and God could take the form of a heavenly, divine messenger.

On the other hand, The Gnostic Gospel of the Egyptians refers to the "Great Angel Sakla", and Pistis Sophia equates Sakla with Yaldabaoth/Yaltabaoth, the Demiurge:

And Zoe (Life), the daughter of Pistis Sophia, cried out and said to him, "You are mistaken, Sakla!" – for which the alternative name is Yaltabaoth. She breathed into his face, and her breath became a fiery angel for her; and that angel bound Yaldabaoth and cast him down into Tartaros below the abyss.

The term "sum of chaos" shows up in the Hypostasis of the Archons:

Now when Yaldabaoth saw him (Sabaoth) in this great splendor and at this height, he envied him; and the envy became an androgynous product, and this was the origin of envy. And envy engendered death; and death engendered his offspring and gave each of them charge of its heaven; and all the heavens of chaos became full of their multitudes. But it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being – after the pattern of all the things above – so that the sum of chaos might be attained.
(http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/archons.html)

Here, "the father of the entirety" willed that they all came into being to attain "the sum of chaos", and this is done after the pattern of things above. Matching the pattern of things done above would go along with how in Sophia of Jesus Christ, "Immortal Man revealed aeons and powers and kingdoms, and gave authority to all who appear in him, that they might exercise their desires until the last things that are above chaos." There, kingdoms were exercized until the last things done above chaos, whereas in Hypostasis of the Archons, things came into being after the pattern of things above to attain the "sum of chaos."

The "father of the entirety" refers to the Gnostic God, not to the demiurge, because earlier, the Demiurge Yaldabaoth said:

"It is I who am god of the entirety."

And Zoe (Life), the daughter of Pistis Sophia, cried out and said to him, "You are mistaken, Sakla!"

So when Hypostasis of the Archons says, "It was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being – after the pattern of all the things above – so that the sum of chaos might be attained", the Gnostic Father-God is willing that the things came into being to attain the "sum of chaos". Drawing an analogy to the "Sophia of Jesus Christ", the "Great Angel" would be the Gnostic Father-God.

But I think that most likely "the Great Angel" who determined the time is God or specifically God the Father, due to God the Father alone knowing the time for the world's end per Matthew 24 as you pointed out.

[rakovsky]

Jan 30, 2020 14:29:25 GMT -5 Dave said:

It is fascinating that although Col 1:16 and John 1:1-4 that everything was created through Christ
Gen 2:7 makes the point that it was specifically Jehovah God that did the breathing

until a certain apocalyptic, chaotic time is fulfilled – YES! - Timing
Mat 24 Christ does not know when only the Father

Dave,
Now I am thinking that the sentence refers to the Savior piecing together garments (bodies) of light for the faithful, not to the Savior breathing life into the believers. One reason is because some people could still be around and still breathing when the Savior returned in Christian Eschatology.

I also think that you are on the right track with Matthew 24, which gives timing for the end of the world and God imposing a divine order on the world, a time which God the Father and Designer of the World knows and has set, since as you noted, the Son does not know when that time will be.

In that case, the Great Angel might be God the Father.
I feel that I have a good handle on the sentence in question, except for the last part:

until the number of chaos should be complete, (that is,) when the time determined by the great angel is complete.

I guess that in this text, the Great Angel here is Immortal Man the Savior, not God the Father. And the "number of chaos" is like how the Gnostic text of Sophia of Jesus Christ says that there are a number of aeons that are above the chaos, and so by this implication, there is also a set number or time limit for the chaos.

[rakovsky]

So my answer is that I take the sentence

But when this came about by the will of Mother Sophia - so that Immortal Man might piece together the garments there for a judgment on the robbers - <he>[Immortal Man] then welcomed the blowing of that breath; but since he was soul-like, he was not able to take that power for himself until the number of chaos should be complete, (that is,) when the time determined by the great angel is complete.

to mean that: Mother Sophia successfully willed the breath of life to blow into the Savior/Immortal One and for everyone and everything in the Chaos/created world to receive names. She did this so that the Savior could make bodies of light for people as a judgment against the angels and demons who formed the created, material world and who put Adam into an earthly, physical body. When the breath of life blew into the Savior and everyone and everything received names, the Savior welcomed/summoned the breath's blowing. But since the Savior was soul-like/psychical, he couldn't get the power to make heavenly light bodies until the time limit for the end of the created world, ie. until the time that God/the Savior had set for the created world was fulfilled. 

I take it that "Sophia of Jesus Christ", by using different terms like the "Great Invisible Spirit", the "Great Angel", "the Savior", "Immortal Man", can be referring to different forms or aspects of the Savior. Something like this happens in Christianity. All things are in Christ, God's Word, and Christ is God, but He also experienced human limitations as a mortal being while in His earthly form. So in this passage, the Savior, as a human, material, mortal being with breath, didn't have the power to give people bodies of light until the end of the world. 

[Dave]

"Garments" are the flesh or body in which the soul is "clothed."

Yes – and more
Garment in Gnostic lore is also a covering of sin – or a covering upon which we wear our sin
A Rabbi once talked about our earthly garments become stained with sin – our earthy garment are soiled by sin –

Even Enoch – who was such a righteous guy that God called him into heaven for a tour and a chat – had to change his earth garments for heavenly ones

The Book of the Secrets of Enoch
22:7 And the Lord said to his servants tempting them: 'Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity,' and the glorious ones bowed down to the Lord, and said: 'Let Enoch go according to Thy word.' 8 And the Lord said to Michael: 'Go and take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of My glory.' 9 And Michael did thus, as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun's ray, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

"The robbers" are "powers that created or control the material realm", according to Philip Harland. In The Reception of Luke and Acts in the Period Before Irenaeus, Andrew Gregory writes that the "robbers" "apparently" refers "to those who imprison the soul in its corporeal existence".

Robbers – I used the colloquial terminology – archon to represent all – bad guys whether angelic or demonic

Authoritative Teaching
… wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, … (4 sentences) … We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the worlds

The Hypostasis of the Archons
Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.

In the Apocryphon of John, the "robbers" are "the angels and demons" who made Adam's "natural body" and clothed him with a material, earthly body. In the Sophia of Jesus Christ, "the interpreter who was sent", through whom a multitude of self-begotten ones "might attain their salvation and awake from forgetfulness",

The archon making Adam - Here I am slow to understand
1- Gen 1:1 God bara the heavens and earth
For me – heavens = invisible spiritual realm / earth = visible physical realm
IMO – HS = the electromagnetic spectrum that is OMNIPRESENT – the ether- the matrix of the all
Heaven in Gen 1:1 – invisible spiritual realm – as in Spirit of God = Holy Spirit
Robert refers to provider and sustainer – thus the HS sustains the all
Earth in Gen 1:1 = visible physical realm as in Christ = the 3D image of the Creator

2- The Gap Theory
A- In the Catholic Theory of the angelic FALL (which I do not support) – it had to happen before Gen 3 so the serpent could be the bad guy. When? Gen 1:2 when choshek (darkness) was introduced to the creation of Gen 1:2
B- If the Catholic angelic ‘Fall’ happened in the GAP between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 – then the “war” of Rev 12:7 happened long ago and the ‘dragon’ was relocated from ‘heavens to earth’
C- Jewish Gap of sorts – happened on Day 6 – Adam ran away with Lilith and fathered the ‘creatures of the night’
D- Gnostic – Catholics misrepresent ‘The Fall’ as some Free Will anti-God uprising by Lucifer (Ezk 28)
Gnostics say – one of the very first independent thoughts was the act of Sophia to create a being
That being – woke up alone and arrogantly claimed to be the ALL – the first God-is-not-absolute expression – this was the first Archon – therefore the Chief Archon – which the HS deliberately tried to hide in a cloud of darkness and fire – which become the home of chaos
E- Gnostic anion – a time period – a world – a dimension – a location
There was an entire Adam to Revelation type “Gnostic Contest” after Gen 1:1

It resulted in a disappointment – a fall – the Chief Archon that was sequestered and countered
Countered by Gen 1:3 The LIGHT – salvation – Christ – truth – God

3- ADAM of Gnostic literature and Adam + Lillith of Jewish literature =
Sometimes stories of the Gap in a different time – sometimes stories about our time
As in heaven so also on earth – the Contest playing out on multiple levels - mirror

In that case, the Great Angel might be God the Father.
I feel that I have a good handle on the sentence in question, except for the last part:
until the number of chaos should be complete, (that is,) when the time determined by the great angel is complete.

As in heaven so also on earth – the Contest playing out on multiple levels - mirror
Gen 15:16 Then in the fourth generation they will return here—for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

Mother Sophia successfully willed the breath of life to blow into the Savior/Immortal One and for everyone and everything in the Chaos/created world to receive names. She did this so that the Savior could make bodies of light for people as a judgment against the angels and demons who formed the created, material world and who put Adam into an earthly, physical body.

Chaos/created world - the angels and demons (archon) who formed the created, material world

IMO – I am aware that ancient Gnostic taught that this 3D reality is the corruption
We come into the corruption, made of the corruption, with the mission to return to God
Return is a key word – we have been there before because we are immortal beings having a physical souljourn.
The Jews say – from God we came – we existed in a place called the well of souls and then mated with our physical bodies at conception. We were once in full awareness of the Creator.
During our physical souljourn Mind-Body dominates and we ‘forget’ what we were once aware of
Our mission here is to awaken our souls – grow spiritually – Gnostics say – remember
The archons mission is to help us forget – anti-awakening forces

(Archons) put Adam into an earthly, physical body? – I am confused as to which Adam of which anionand which earth the one of Gen 1:1 or the one of Gen 1:9?

[rakovsky]

Feb 13, 2020 23:51:09 GMT -5 Dave said:

The archon making Adam - Here I am slow to understand
1- Gen 1:1 God bara the heavens and earth

You can't rely on the Bible to necessarily explain Gnostic explanations of events like Creation. They have a different system. Even some Gnostic stories may differ from each other.
My reading of the Gnostic version in the texts that I quoted here was that angels and demons made a physical, material body for Adam. This is in the Apocryphon of John. First, it talks about the perfect mind's foreknowledge producing Adam:

"And from the foreknowledge of the perfect mind, through the revelation of the will of the invisible Spirit and the will of the Autogenes, <the> perfect Man (appeared), the first revelation, and the truth. It is he whom the virginal Spirit called Pigera-Adamas, and he placed him over the first aeon with the mighty one, the Autogenes, the Christ, by the first light Armozel; and with him are his powers. And the invisible one gave him a spiritual, invincible power.
...
"And a voice came forth from the exalted aeon-heaven: 'The Man exists and the son of Man.' And the chief archon, Yaltabaoth, heard (it) and thought that the voice had come from his mother. And he did not know from where it came. And he taught them, the holy and perfect Mother-Father, the complete foreknowledge, the image of the invisible one who is the Father of the all (and) through whom everything came into being, the first Man. For he revealed his likeness in a human form.

Next, the Demiurge Yaldabaoth and his authorities created Adam based on the image of the Adam that exists in the higher realm:

"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that his image may become a light for us.' And they created by means of their respective powers in correspondence with the characteristics which were given. And each authority supplied a characteristic in the form of the image which he had seen in its natural (form). He created a being according to the likeness of the first, perfect Man. And they said, 'Let us call him Adam, that his name may become a power of light for us.'



"And the powers began: the first one, goodness, created a bone-soul; and the second, foreknowledge, created a sinew-soul; the third, divinity, created a flesh-soul; and the fourth, the lordship, created a marrow-soul; the fifth, kingdom created a blood-soul; the sixth, envy, created a skin-soul; the seventh, understanding, created a hair-soul. And the multitude of the angels attended him and they received from the powers the seven substances of the natural (form) in order to create the proportions of the limbs and the proportion of the rump and the proper working together of each of the parts.

By comparison, in the Biblical story, God breathed (in Greek the word is a version of the Greek word "psyche") into Adam and then Adam became a living "soul"("psyche"). The two paragraphs above seem weird because they seem to imply that the Archon's angels created the Adam on earth, including his "soul", whereas it would seem like the Gnostic system would entail the first man's soul being something that had descended into the Archons' world and needed to be saved by the "Savior" and ascend back out of it, in agreement with what you said, "We come into the corruption, made of the corruption, with the mission to return to God. Return is a key word – we have been there before because we are immortal beings having a physical souljourn.
"
Here is where it talks about the angels and demons making a material body for Adam:

"And the man came forth because of the shadow of the light which is in him. And his thinking was superior to all those who had made him. When they looked up, they saw that his thinking was superior. And they took counsel with the whole array of archons and angels. They took fire and earth and water and mixed them together with the four fiery winds. And they wrought them together and caused a great disturbance. And they brought him (Adam) into the shadow of death, in order that they might form (him) again from earth and water and fire and the spirit which originates in matter, which is the ignorance of darkness and desire, and their counterfeit spirit. This is the tomb of the newly-formed body with which the robbers had clothed the man, the bond of forgetfulness; and he became a mortal man. This is the first one who came down, and the first separation. But the Epinoia of the light which was in him, she is the one who was to awaken his thinking.

You asked, "(Archons) put Adam into an earthly, physical body? – I am confused as to which Adam of which anionand which earth the one of Gen 1:1 or the one of Gen 1:9?
"
I am referring to the passage from the Apocryphon of John that I quoted above and put in bold. This is the Adam of the realm of the Archon Yaldabaoth's power, and the earth is the physical material earth out of which he was physically formed as it says. If you were going to match it with Biblical thinking, it would be the earth of both Genesis 1:1 and 1:9. I see them as the same earth in Genesis 1, only that in verse 9 God separated the water of the earth from the dry land. But of course the Gnostic cosmology differs from the Biblical one, so you can't rely on them always matching up.

[Dave]

You beat me to a response by 7 minutes

Feb 13, 2020 23:51:09 GMT -5 Dave said:

(Archons) put Adam into an earthly, physical body? – I am confused as to which Adam of which anionand which earth the one of Gen 1:1 or the one of Gen 1:9?

Jer 4:23-31 is usually studies as – Anguish over Judah's Desolation

Is there another layer of meaning here? Examine the date stamp

Jer 4:23 I looked at the earth and behold, it was deserted and desolate, and at the heavens and they had no light.

Is this a reference to a time before Gen 1:3?
If it is a reference to Gen 1:3 – then

Jer 4:31 For I heard a cry like one in labor, the anguish of one giving birth to her first child

May be a reference to the creation of the Chief Archon

IF this is a reference to Gen 1:2 – then

Jer 4:22 “For My people are foolish. They do not know Me. They are senseless children, and they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, but to do good they do not know.”

The Great Contest – playing out in an anion before ours – in an age before ours –
The American Anasi Indian say we are in the third age of man – soon to be the 4th
Adam to Noah – the first age of man – Noah to 1st coming the second age – Jesus to the 2nd coming the third age – soon the 4th age
Gnostic call then anions – periods of time – or possibly other dimensions
The first recorded Contest happen in the GAP between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2

Jer 4:24 I looked at the mountains—behold, they were shaking and all the hills swaying to and fro.
Jer 4:25 I looked and behold, no people! All the birds of the sky had fled.
Jer 4:26 I looked and behold, the fruitful field was a wilderness and all of its cities were in ruins before Adonai, before His fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus says Adonai, “The whole land will be wasteland, yet I will not totally destroy it.
Jer 4:28 Therefore, the earth will mourn and the heavens above grow black. For I have spoken, I have purposed, nor will I relent, nor turn from it.

How similar is this to
Gen 6:5 Then Adonai saw that the wickedness of humankind was great on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their heart was only evil all the time.
Gen 6:6 So Adonai regretted that He made humankind on the earth, and His heart was deeply pained.
Gen 6:7 So Adonai said, “I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the ground, from humankind to livestock, crawling things and the flying creatures of the sky, because I regret that I made them.”
Gen 6:8 But Noah found favor in Adonai’s eyes.
Spoken just before a Contest reset – with the flood

Jer 4:29 At the sound of horsemen and archers the whole city flees. They go into the thickets and climb up on the rocks. The whole city is deserted—no one dwells in it.
Jer 4:30 And you, O desolate one, what will you do? Though you dress in scarlet, though you adorn yourself with gold ornaments though you enlarge your eyes with paint—in vain you make yourself beautiful—your lovers despise you, they seek your life.

If this is speaking of whatever happened in the GAP – then it was a very large scale thing

Just as Gnostic literature expands this event to include – the Chief Archon reproducing himself into the 12 Archon that have POWERS (I think of them as Generals) that give rise to the 72 Archon that have domains (I call them lieutenants) – Powers and Principalities (Eph 6)

I also find it so interesting that this 72 idea is also carried into Islam as their version of paradise – the place promised to them by Allah – making Allah a ‘sar’ / a prince of this world (domain) like the ‘sar’ / prince of Persian Dan 10

The ‘WAR’
Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought,
Rev 12:8 but they were not strong enough, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

This took place in the GAP – thrown to the earth was the earth of Gen 1:1 NOT Gen 1:9

In the First anion / age – the Contest unfolded in the creation of Gen 1:1
It could have been a complete Adam to revelation Contest resulting in Gen 1:3
Contest reset and the rules change

In the second anion / age – the Contest (and contestants) are on the earth of Gen 1:9
Adam to Noah – beginning with a female transgression and ending a ‘perfect’ male savior Noah
Contest reset and the rules change

After the flood another age / anion Noah to Nimrod / Bable
Man was taking the Contest back to the Archon now ejected from earth to space
Today we are again on our way to the Moon and Mars
Contest reset and the rules change

Abraham to Egypt – Moses to Canaan – Israel to Babylon Exile – Judah’s return to Maccabees
Jesus to today – each a contest rest and a change of rules

2nd coming - - Contest rest

And each age a mirror of what came before

Ecc 1:9 What has been is what will be, and what has been done will be done again. There is nothing new under the sun.

Ecc 3:15 Whatever exists, has already been and whatever will be, has already been, but God recalls what has passed.

Mat 6:10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Each age mirrors the age before

So – in a discussion of Adam + Lillith / or the Archon forming Adam from earth
I am uncertain of which Adam – which earth – and which age / anion

[rakovsky]

Feb 14, 2020 12:08:01 GMT -5 Dave said:

You beat me to a response by 7 minutes

Feb 13, 2020 23:51:09 GMT -5 Dave said:

Jer 4:23-31 is usually studies as – Anguish over Judah's Desolation

Is there another layer of meaning here? Examine the date stamp

Jer 4:23 I looked at the earth and behold, it was deserted and desolate, and at the heavens and they had no light.

Is this a reference to a time before Gen 1:3?

So – in a discussion of Adam + Lillith / or the Archon forming Adam from earth
I am uncertain of which Adam – which earth – and which age / anion

Jeremiah 4 sounds apocalyptic:  "Jer 4:28 Therefore, the earth will mourn and the heavens above grow black. For I have spoken, I have purposed, nor will I relent, nor turn from it.
" This is because it is in the future tense.
Sure you can draw a parallel to the Great Flood story of Genesis 6 because God makes the earth desolate in both cases.
You ask, "Is there another layer of meaning here?" There could be because prophecies can be interpreted different ways. Like someone could say that it means spiritual desolation in Jeremiah 4, and an allegorical Great Flood in Genesis 6. It could be an allegory of Jerusalem's desolation by the Babylonians in Jeremiah 4 and also a prediction about a future apocalypse of the world. I don't know. Such prophecies may require alot of study.
Anyway, you can't define the Gnostic stories like about Adam's creation necessarily based on Biblical ones.

You write, "I am uncertain of which Adam – which earth – and which age / anion". Apparently in the Apocryphon of John, the angels were creating an Adam man being in the realm over which Yaldabaoth had control, and making him out of the physical material earth there that Yaldabaoth had control over.

[Dave]

Feb 14, 2020 13:25:54 GMT -5 rakovsky said:

You write, "I am uncertain of which Adam – which earth – and which age / anion". Apparently in the Apocryphon of John, the angels were creating an Adam man being in the realm over which Yaldabaoth had control, and making him out of the physical material earth there that Yaldabaoth had control over.

Correct – I do not an issue with saying the archon made Adam from the earth
He commands – and then a collaboration occurs – us

My point is that Adam is also a Kabbalistic view of Gen 1:1 earth
Adam and Lillith fathered the ‘night creatures’ = another view of Sophia and the Chief Archon
Therefore in Gnostic text – which are Jewish based – for me, it is hard to distinguish which earth, which Adam, and which age / anion.

Jeremiah 4 sounds apocalyptic: "Jer 4:28 Therefore, the earth will mourn and the heavens above grow black. For I have spoken, I have purposed, nor will I relent, nor turn from it.
" This is because it is in the future tense.

I am not a Hebrew translator – I am a Strong’s Number looker upper
I am a Greek translator – as a layman – not expert, but I have taught others to translate Greek

Jer 4:28 (TLV) Therefore, the earth will mourn… על זאת תאבל הארץ
אָבַל – Strong’s H56 - to bewail: - lament, mourn. – what can you tell me of this verb?

Jer 4:28 (LXX) επι τουτοις πενθειτω
Πενθέω – Strong’s G3996 - From G3997; to grieve (the feeling or the act): - mourn, (be-) wail.
Πενθειτω of the LXX = verb, present tense, active voice, declarative mood, 3rd person singular
Proper translation of the LXX = grieving actively now and continually grieving – always present and always active

The other interesting difference = the Hebrew word earth
אֶרֶץ – Strong’s H776 'erets - From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): - X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.

The LXX uses τουτοις – Strong’s G3778 - a Greek pronoun that means almost anything and everything

I read this as אֶרֶץ – 'erets – earth of Gen 1:1
And τουτοις – everything corporeal – all physical creation – earth of Gen 1:1

[rakovsky]

Feb 15, 2020 11:38:30 GMT -5 Dave said:

Feb 14, 2020 13:25:54 GMT -5 rakovsky said:

You write, "I am uncertain of which Adam – which earth – and which age / anion". Apparently in the Apocryphon of John, the angels were creating an Adam man being in the realm over which Yaldabaoth had control, and making him out of the physical material earth there that Yaldabaoth had control over.

Correct – I do not an issue with saying the archon made Adam from the earth
He commands – and then a collaboration occurs – us

My point is that Adam is also a Kabbalistic view of Gen 1:1 earth
Adam and Lillith fathered the ‘night creatures’ = another view of Sophia and the Chief Archon
Therefore in Gnostic text – which are Jewish based – for me, it is hard to distinguish which earth, which Adam, and which age / anion.

Jeremiah 4 sounds apocalyptic: "Jer 4:28 Therefore, the earth will mourn and the heavens above grow black. For I have spoken, I have purposed, nor will I relent, nor turn from it.
" This is because it is in the future tense.

I am not a Hebrew translator – I am a Strong’s Number looker upper
I am a Greek translator – as a layman – not expert, but I have taught others to translate Greek

Jer 4:28 (TLV) Therefore, the earth will mourn… על זאת תאבל הארץ
אָבַל – Strong’s H56 - to bewail: - lament, mourn. – what can you tell me of this verb?

Jer 4:28 (LXX) επι τουτοις πενθειτω
Πενθέω – Strong’s G3996 - From G3997; to grieve (the feeling or the act): - mourn, (be-) wail.
Πενθειτω of the LXX = verb, present tense, active voice, declarative mood, 3rd person singular
Proper translation of the LXX = grieving actively now and continually grieving – always present and always active

The other interesting difference = the Hebrew word earth
אֶרֶץ – Strong’s H776 'erets - From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): - X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.

The LXX uses τουτοις – Strong’s G3778 - a Greek pronoun that means almost anything and everything

I read this as אֶרֶץ – 'erets – earth of Gen 1:1
And τουτοις – everything corporeal – all physical creation – earth of Gen 1:1

I can probably do about as good a job learning and explaining Jer. 4's term for "bewail" in Hebrew as you can, and maybe not as good, since I am not very familiar with Hebrew. I never studied it and rely on sources like Strong's for Biblical Hebrew words.

FYI, Gen. 1:1 refers to "gi" in Greek for the inhabitable earth. It must be related to the term "Gaia". Genesis 1:1 goes in Greek:

ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν
The ending goes literally word for word: God the heavens and the earth (gin, from gi, pronounced "gay"):
www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1093&t=LXX

arable land

the ground, the earth as a standing place

the main land as opposed to the sea or water

the earth as a whole

the earth as opposed to the heavens

the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals

a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region