Trying to discredit scripture

[Dave]

Evolution myths: The theory is wrong because the Bible is 'inerrant'

New Scientist, 18:00 16 April 2008 by Michael Le Page
www.newscientist.com/article/dn13695-evolution-myths-the-theory-is-wrong-because-the-bible-is-inerrant.html

This argument is undermined by the hundreds of errors and inaccuracies and contradictions found in Bible. It is anything but "inerrant".

A few creationists are honest enough to admit that the evidence supporting the theory of evolution is irrelevant as far as they are concerned: as it contradicts the "Word of God", it simply has to be wrong.

Some Christians regard the text of the Bible as literally true or, to use their term, as "inerrant". If people reject evolution on this basis, it is only fair to ask whether this belief stands up.

Whichever translation of the Bible you look at it is not hard to find errors. The texts are full of internal contradictions as well as historical and scientific inaccuracies.

There are so many examples it is hard to know where to start. Take its cosmology: according to the Bible, the earth is flat and immovable, the moon emits its own light, the sky is solid and the stars can be shaken from the sky by earthquakes.

Its mathematics is also poor. How many sons do you count: "The sons of Shemaiah: Huttush, Igal, Bariah, Neriah, and Shaphat, six" (I Chronicles 3:22). Such errors are common. The value of pi is given as 3, even though many other cultures had already worked it out with greater precision.

Bible biology

Its biology is no better. The Bible claims that rabbits chew the cud, that the pattern of goats' coats can be changed by what their parents look at while copulating, that only dead seeds can germinate and that ostriches are careless parents.

Fundamentalists try to explain away some of these examples in the light of what we now know: pi is approximately three, they point out, while rabbits eat their own droppings, which is a bit like chewing the cud. But such explanations essentially admit that the Bible is not the ultimate source of of reliable truths about the world.

In other words, if you want to know anything from how rabbits digest their food or how to breed goats to the value of pi or whether the sun orbits the earth or vice versa, you have to turn to science and mathematics, not the Bible. If that's the case, then surely the same is true of how life on Earth came about?

So how reliable is the Bible chapter that relates to evolution? Let's leave aside the long-standing evidence that Earth is older than 6000 years and that there was no world-wide flood, and look at what else Genesis says.

Genesis 1 gives the order of creation as plants, animals, man and woman. Genesis 2 gives it as man, plants, animals and woman. Genesis 1:3-5 says light was created on the first day, Genesis 1:14-19 says the sun was created on the fourth. Genesis 7:2 says Noah took seven pairs of each beast, Genesis 7:8-15 says one pair.

The list goes on. The fruit of the tree of knowledge is said to kill within a day of being eaten, yet Adam and Eve don't die after eating it. Genesis says there were giants (Nephilim) before the flood and that the flood annihilated all creatures other than those on the ark, but Numbers says there were giants after the flood.

Sorting it out

Attempts to resolve these contradictions are almost as old as the Bible itself. Those who regard the Bible as inerrant tie themselves in knots trying to explain them away (hands up who believes that T. rex was once a peaceful vegetarian?), or even take it upon themselves to rewrite the Bible to expunge them.

However, there are far too many errors, inaccuracies and contradictions to dismiss them all. The only rational and reasonable conclusion is that the Bible is not inerrant.

Don't believe us? Good, that's the spirit. Question everything. Go look up all these examples for yourself and make up your own mind.

[Dave]

Response - Evolution myths: The theory is wrong because the Bible is 'inerrant'

New Scientist, 18:00, 16 April, 2008, by Michael Le Page
www.newscientist.com/article/dn13695-evolution-myths-the-theory-is-wrong-because-the-bible-is-inerrant.html



This argument is undermined by the hundreds of errors and inaccuracies and contradictions found in Bible. It is anything but "inerrant".

A few creationists are honest enough to admit that the evidence supporting the theory of evolution is irrelevant as far as they are concerned: as it contradicts the "Word of God", it simply has to be wrong.

Some Christians regard the text of the Bible as literally true or, to use their term, as "inerrant". If people reject evolution on this basis, it is only fair to ask whether this belief stands up.

Whichever translation of the Bible you look at it is not hard to find errors. The texts are full of internal contradictions as well as historical and scientific inaccuracies.

There are so many examples it is hard to know where to start. Take its cosmology: according to the Bible, the earth is flat and immovable, the moon emits its own light, the sky is solid and the stars can be shaken from the sky by earthquakes.

I have looked and looked - please will someone show me a scripture that promotes a "Flat Earth"!!

the moon emits its own light, the sky is solid and the stars can be shaken from the sky by earthquakes. - Like ‘sunrise’ and ‘sunset’, ‘moonlight’ is an idiom which has survived into contemporary usage; this is editorial nit-picking. Does he also protest outside concert halls if they are playing Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata or Debussy’ Clair de Lune, on the grounds that it’s giving credence to a biblical error?

The metaphoric and symbolic words used n rev 6:13 should have been the author’s first clue this was part of an obvious vision, unless they also want to assert the Lamb was an actual lamb with a fuzzy coat running around on four legs, crying ‘baaaa’.

Its mathematics is also poor. How many sons do you count: "The sons of Shemaiah: Huttush, Igal, Bariah, Neriah, and Shaphat, six" (I Chronicles 3:22). Such errors are common. The value of pi is given as 3, even though many other cultures had already worked it out with greater precision.

1 Chronicles 3:22 (NIV) - The descendants of Shekaniah: Shemaiah and his sons: Hattush, Igal, Bariah, Neariah and Shaphat—six in all. - if you are going to quote scripture is reallt is an obvious attempt to miss-lead when you don't quote the entire verse

Several Ph.D.s in mathematicians at the "mathematics forum" - mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/52573.html - rebuked a misotheist for claiming that the Bible was mistaken here:
‘Whenever we work with pi we are rounding it to some number of digits, so all such calculations are incorrect. The only issue is how much accuracy we need for a particular application.

‘The Bible does not state that pi = 3.0. It states that a particular object (the circular basin in front of the Jerusalem Temple) had a diameter of 10 cubits and a circumference of 30 cubits. So the correct question is not, “Is it proper to round pi to 3.0?"


Bible biology

Its biology is no better. The Bible claims that rabbits chew the cud, that the pattern of goats' coats can be changed by what their parents look at while copulating, that only dead seeds can germinate and that ostriches are careless parents.

rabbits chew the cud - The Hebrew phrase for ‘chew the cud’ simply means ‘raising up what has been swallowed’. It is not an error of Scripture that ‘chewing the cud’ now has a more restrictive meaning than it did in Moses’ day.

the pattern of goats' coats can be changed by what their parents look at while copulating, - Genesis 30 (NIV) 25 After Rachel gave birth to Joseph, Jacob said to Laban, “Send me on my way so I can go back to my own homeland. 26 Give me my wives and children, for whom I have served you, and I will be on my way. You know how much work I’ve done for you.” 27 But Laban said to him, “If I have found favor in your eyes, please stay. I have learned by divination that the Lord has blessed me because of you.” 28 He added, “Name your wages, and I will pay them.” 29 Jacob said to him, “You know how I have worked for you and how your livestock has fared under my care. 30 The little you had before I came has increased greatly, and the Lord has blessed you wherever I have been. But now, when may I do something for my own household? ” 31 “What shall I give you?” he asked. “Don’t give me anything,” Jacob replied. “But if you will do this one thing for me, I will go on tending your flocks and watching over them: 32 Let me go through all your flocks today and remove from them every speckled or spotted sheep, every dark-colored lamb and every spotted or speckled goat. They will be my wages. 33 And my honesty will testify for me in the future, whenever you check on the wages you have paid me. Any goat in my possession that is not speckled or spotted, or any lamb that is not dark-colored, will be considered stolen. ” 34 “Agreed,” said Laban. “Let it be as you have said.” 35 That same day he removed all the male goats that were streaked or spotted, and all the speckled or spotted female goats (all that had white on them) and all the dark-colored lambs, and he placed them in the care of his sons. 36 Then he put a three-day journey between himself and Jacob, while Jacob continued to tend the rest of Laban’s flocks. 37 Jacob, however, took fresh-cut branches from poplar, almond and plane trees and made white stripes on them by peeling the bark and exposing the white inner wood of the branches. 38 Then he placed the peeled branches in all the watering troughs, so that they would be directly in front of the flocks when they came to drink. When the flocks were in heat and came to drink, 39 they mated in front of the branches. And they bore young that were streaked or speckled or spotted. 40 Jacob set apart the young of the flock by themselves, but made the rest face the streaked and dark-colored animals that belonged to Laban. Thus he made separate flocks for himself and did not put them with Laban’s animals. 41 Whenever the stronger females were in heat, Jacob would place the branches in the troughs in front of the animals so they would mate near the branches, 42 but if the animals were weak, he would not place them there. So the weak animals went to Laban and the strong ones to Jacob.

So, Jacob did think he had done some magic here - but did he? - Genesis 31 (NIV) 4 So Jacob sent word to Rachel and Leah to come out to the fields where his flocks were. 5 He said to them, “I see that your father’s attitude toward me is not what it was before, but the God of my father has been with me. 6 You know that I’ve worked for your father with all my strength, 7 yet your father has cheated me by changing my wages ten times. However, God has not allowed him to harm me. 8 If he said, ‘The speckled ones will be your wages,’ then all the flocks gave birth to speckled young; and if he said, ‘The streaked ones will be your wages,’ then all the flocks bore streaked young. 9 So God has taken away your father’s livestock and has given them to me. 10 “In breeding season I once had a dream in which I looked up and saw that the male goats mating with the flock were streaked, speckled or spotted. 11 The angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob.’ I answered, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he said, ‘Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land. ’”

Oh - Jacob didn't do anything - it was God

that only dead seeds can germinate - Without Scriptural reference, we can only assume the intended reference in this instance is John 12:24-26 - the word used for "die" (apothnesko) carries both a literal and a figurative meaning, usually with reference to death in sin (Rom. 5:15).

ostriches are careless parents - Cramp's Handbook of the Birds of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa as a source, notes:
Under certain environmental conditions...the family group may break up when chicks are a few weeks old, the adults renewing sexual activity and becoming highly aggressive towards all juveniles. Chicks fledged in small numbers outside the breeding season are frequently treated as outcasts and live solitarily.

Fundamentalists try to explain away some of these examples in the light of what we now know: pi is approximately three, they point out, while rabbits eat their own droppings, which is a bit like chewing the cud. But such explanations essentially admit that the Bible is not the ultimate source of of reliable truths about the world. Absolutely Correct! The Bible is not the ultimate source of reliable truths about the world! Isn't this the same arrogant reasoning as the vatican telling Compernicus that there can not be moon around Jupiter because they are not mentioned in the Bible?

In other words, if you want to know anything from how rabbits digest their food or how to breed goats to the value of pi or whether the sun orbits the earth or vice versa, you have to turn to science and mathematics, not the Bible. If that's the case, then surely the same is true of how life on Earth came about?

So how reliable is the Bible chapter that relates to evolution? Let's leave aside the long-standing evidence that Earth is older than 6000 years and that there was no world-wide flood, and look at what else Genesis says. I argue and argue that time is relative and varible - it is not linear - so any discussion of earth being only 6000 yrs old only represents one extreme view held by the most orthodox and fundamentalist. No world flood? The Fluid Dynamics of Whole Earth Decompression says otherwise!

Genesis 1 gives the order of creation as plants, animals, man and woman. Genesis 2 gives it as man, plants, animals and woman. Genesis 1:3-5 says light was created on the first day, Genesis 1:14-19 says the sun was created on the fourth. Genesis 7:2 says Noah took seven pairs of each beast, Genesis 7:8-15 says one pair.

As for light and the sun - the assumption made by the science is that you can not have light without the sun. But, yeilding to the limitations imposed by OMNIPOTENCE - God could have had light long before the Sun was formed - are we limiting it to only our sun? What about starlight - Christ is the light of the world - how many more example of other possible assumptions shall I make?

As for the difference between Gen 1 and 2 - only a complete moron (even if he does have a PhD) reads Gen 2 as man is created first.

This is a misleading objection because Genesis 7:2 actually states: You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female.

Genesis 7:8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground,

Genesis 7:15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Pairs = one pair - or only 2 ? No wonder they find scripture so hard to understand!

The list goes on. The fruit of the tree of knowledge is said to kill within a day of being eaten, yet Adam and Eve don't die after eating it. Genesis says there were giants (Nephilim) before the flood and that the flood annihilated all creatures other than those on the ark, but Numbers says there were giants after the flood. Die within a day? Where does scripture say that? You notice New Scientist doesn't provide a scripture reference. What the Bible does say is that once Adam & Eve ate of the fruit they became mortal and began to die that very day - just as you and I - are one day closer to death each and every day. In the end, both Adam and Eve died!

Nephilium before the flood - sure I agree - Nephilium after the flood are the Annunaki of Sumar, Sirus of Egypt, and the Vemas of India

Sorting it out

Attempts to resolve these contradictions are almost as old as the Bible itself. Those who regard the Bible as inerrant tie themselves in knots trying to explain them away (did I ?) (hands up who believes that T. rex was once a peaceful vegetarian?), or even take it upon themselves to rewrite the Bible to expunge them. (it doesn't really matter how it is rewritten - if you don't understand it - and go around misrepresenting it)

However, there are far too many errors, inaccuracies and contradictions to dismiss them all. The only rational and reasonable conclusion is that the Bible is not inerrant. People talk themselves to all kinds of rational to justify their dis-belief!

Don't believe us? Good, that's the spirit. Question everything. Go look up all these examples for yourself and make up your own mind. - Funny thing - I say exactly the same thing!

[Stella]

I don't know if i agree totally with you Dave, but you basic premis is correct.

It is all in how you present the information that makes it appear correct or doubtful.

[Elflord]

True, Stella.

For example, the statement that says Gen 7 contradicts is inaccurate. First God says take 7 pairs of CLEAN and 1 pair of UNCLEAN, and 7 pairs of birds...in verse it says pairs of clean and unclean, not one pair.

While I generally agree with science more than religion I find it curious that both sides typically misquote or misrepresent the other leading me to the conclusion that neither are fully correct.

Truth is somewhere in between. Statements like, "and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made." just after commanding that some of the creation be saved is contradictory to me. It would make sense to say "the remaining" or something more factual. A little nit-picky, I know, but a good example of the kinds of things that bug me most.

[Dave]

I have been waiting a long time for this conversation - thanks.

I have been reading Genesis 7 over and over. What exactly is your nit pick point? Let's pick it!

[Deleted]

Ge 7:11 ¶ In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

A great universal flood spells the end of evolutionary theory. The cretaceous layer, also KT layer, is a chalk layer found all over the earth. On every continent, on the top of every mountain. Chalk is the chemical remain of sea dwelling sea shells. You every find sea shell chalk in coal, what are seashells doing in a forest of trees?

This chalk also forms today, but only in shallow oceans, not deeper oceans, the tops of the mid Atlantic Ridge is covered with white chalk, like the Alps underwater. So a universal flood is obvious all over the world. How come evolution ignores the fact? They speak of a food of sorts 65 million years ago ... they show iridium a rare metal loving iron all over this layer as well, might actually be the foundations of the mantle broken up, where lots of core iron and nickel are along with water, and iridium, not from a meteorite but from a deeper source inside the mantle of the earth. The earth also was broken, into tectonic plates, rapid movement, lots of underwater volcanism, scary times for Noah.

Actually if you read Scripture carefully the Science is amazing...

Ge 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the "day one".

Not translation renders echad yom correctly here. Why? the translators are biased. If day one is correct, this is time being created, as Gerald Schroeder a Science Jew explains. Again a small example of Scripture details being spot on.

Ge 2:4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

How can generations of time be made in a single day of time? This alludes to creativity, an Einstein problem, already in Scripture year ago.

Just a little taste of Christian Science people looking at Hebrew Scripture more carefully. Fascinating stuff.

Shalom

[Dave]

May 6, 2020 13:29:21 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Ge 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the "day one".

Not translation renders echad yom correctly here. Why? the translators are biased. If day one is correct, this is time being created, as Gerald Schroeder a Science Jew explains. Again a small example of Scripture details being spot on.

Ge 2:4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

How can generations of time be made in a single day of time? This alludes to creativity, an Einstein problem, already in Scripture year ago.

If day one is correct, this is time being created, as Gerald Schroeder a Science Jew explains.
I am familiar with his writings – please explain

Time began in Gen 1:1 as soon as God spoke the Word
The very First step in Creation, Big Bang, or Gnostic Theology = expansion
Expansion = distance / and distance = time

God created the heavens and earth
God fattened / expanded the invisible and the visible

Einstein said, God (E) fattened / expanded into visible (m) and invisible (c2)
Time is the measurement of how long it takes to translate from point A to point B = distance

Question - OK - tell us what does echad yom correctly mean in Gen 1:5

Answer - yôm – Strongs H3117 - From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age,

1- to be hot – bathed in the electromagnetic spectrum that forms the matrix of our multi-verse
As soon as anything of creation experienced the “hot” – the electromagnetic spectrum that sustains the multi-verse – time began

Mat 20:12 (ASV) saying, These last have spent but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.

Mat 20:12 (KJV) Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

The burden of the scorching heat of the day

2- an age – Both the Greek Septuagint and the Greek NT use a form of the word ἡμέρα for Gen 1:5 and Mat 20:12

ἡμέρα - G2250 - hēmera - Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age,

the whole 24 hours
which trips up al 6 days of Creation for immature Christians

the time space between dawn and dark,
I went to the store the other day (figuratively a period of time)

several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); (figuratively a period of time) = (always defined more or less clearly by the context)

age, - an age (figuratively a period of time)
Back in my father’s day things were different / circa 1940 / the age of Aquarius / back in Roman times / the age of the dinosaur

First Century Gnostic Christian’s preferred the term αἰών (ah-own) in their writings – because it tells a bigger story – in which arguments over yom and ἡμέρα can occure

αἰών –Strongs G165 - From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

αἰών - Thayer Definition: -
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

ἀεί – Strong’s G104 - ah-eye' - From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

Ge 2:4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

How can generations of time be made in a single day of time?

100% Gnostic Christian cosmology = Christian Gap Theory

There was an entire Adam and Eve to Revelation theology played out during the first day of creation
Chosek is introduced into creation – The creation of the Chief Archon and his arrogant selfish thought that God-is-not-absolute

Gen 2:4 generations of the heavens implies offspring / reproduction / children
Generations would have been multiple layers of offspring - in heaven
Who reproduced? – the only evidence we have = Gnostic archon which cloned and spread throughout creation

The First αἰών of creation – played out within the invisible / heavens / other dimensions
The Second αἰών – begins with Adam and ends with Noah
The Third αἰών – begins after Noah and ends with Christ
Now we are in the αἰών of Christ – age of Christ – the age of the Gentiles – the time of the Gentiles
And we await the next αἰών promised to come

[Deleted]

Complex writing Dave, but an interesting read.

Gerald Schroeder a Science Jew U tube videos are good to listen to.

You ask "please explain"

The Hebrew word for "first" (ri'shown) is used to compare one thing to another. The Hebrew word (echad) does not mean first, but means unity , the joining together as one the many parts. Translators change the order of Hebrew words to say, evening and morning was the first day. The Hebrew reads evening and morning was day one. Strange statement. But the day one of Creation had no other day to compare time or days to. Day one was the beginning of time. Thus this Hebrew word order, tells us that Creation had a beginning.


Gerald Schroeder tells us "Creation had a beginning". That's a big deal, Science now agrees with.

Shalom

[Dave]

May 6, 2020 13:29:21 GMT -5 @robertt said:

A great universal flood spells the end of evolutionary theory.
So a universal flood is obvious all over the world. How come evolution ignores the fact?

Actually – all geneticist hold to the genetic bottleneck that must have happened sometime in our distant past

Some catastrophic event caused a bottlenecking effect to the human genome

[Deleted]

Yes and isn't it interesting that science tells us the mitochondria DNA in females is only in 3 strands, making a bottleneck indeed, Noah's wife did not have any children, only the three wives of Noah's sons, I believe?

Can't find the Jonathon Sarfetti FLV video link? I have too many files on my computer these days...He is a great speaker...

Shalom