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Post by Dave on Dec 25, 2023 23:04:50 GMT -5
Dave" Exactly my teaching – how does his help you in any way ROB" The 2nd-century rabbi Shimon bar Yochai cursed everyone who explained the term sons of God as angels. They are not good-guy messengers (angels)- Agree 100% They are archon-messengers – demons / devils / satanas / BEAST of this world Thank you for validating Gnostic theology ----------------------------
Dave" Oops! – you just validated that the Book of Enoch predates Jesus Christ – by 300 years How do prophesies about the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ exist 300 years before Jesus was born? ROB" I am suggesting somebody wrote theology long ago and was picked up by Jews.... 300BC 1- it is called – the wisdom of out fathers – it is not considered erroneous 2- it is called prophesy -
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
ROBPP" ROB" I think I have found evidence of Jews supporting and establishing the idea of fallen angels sinning, written 2000 to 3000BC. Dave" Absolutely agree – Gen 6 – if you do not understand what happen in Gen 6 you cannot understand why God calls for a genocide of the Amorite That Robert denies ever happened
I am focusing on the Jews seeing sinning angels part You focus on Gen 6 messengers sinning, ie angels The archon-messengers of Gen 6 are the sinning angels spoke of in scripture They are locked away in chains – awaiting judgment -------------------------------------------------
I quote Crone: "The rabbis reacted to these developments by both rejecting the story of the fallen angels and belittling the angels as a class." Correct – angels cannot fall – because angels do not have free will
That is what she says. Absolutely agree – the archon-messengers of Gen are not good-guy angels of God --------------------------------
Listen to what I am saying...stop focusing on Gen 6 Dave thing. Focus on what Crone said. : "The rabbis reacted to these developments by both rejecting the story of the fallen angels and belittling the angels as a class." "To both Jews and Christians, eliminating Enoch's fallen angels was all the more desirable in that the idea of angels copulating with women had come to feel offensive".32
I agree. DO you also agree Dave, with her statement? This is a true statement – you would raher dismiss Gen 6 rather than admit it was a spiritual even involving archon (gad-guy messengers_
Crone" Angels were superior beings. Besides, they had no passions, and even if they did, they had no bodies. How could they desire the corporeal, let alone cause human reproduction? Dave" Yep – this is Robert’s argument ROB" I take it Dave , you disagree with Crone? Absolutely agree – angels have no passion (yester ra) lust / desire The BEAST live only by (yester ra)
OK where is your Scholar that says the angels can have sex with humans? It's a violation of kinds. You require a Creator to make this happen. A creature kind cannot mate with another creature kind. Torah – Gen 6:1-4 Enoch + King Solomon + Book of Jubilees + Book of giants
Dave" Do you have any idea what the Jewish logos theology is? ROB" why do you refuse to enlighten me? I will quote a Jewish author: Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Now explain how any of this validates that your satan rebels, hates, or opposes God’s right to rule the universe? ROB" If Jews entertain the idea that fallen angels can sin as far back as 300BC, long before the ROman edit, Yes you do – and in the OT times this = Gen 6:1-4
than I have my proof that Ezekiel 28 about angels that sin,
This is exactly why you are not serious You just proved that the fallen angels of Gen 6 are not good-guy angels of the Lord Good-guy angels cannot reproduce or have (yester ra) passion This is all about the biological serpent of Gen 3 – we call devils and satanas – the BEAST
is a possible view for Jews to behold. The fact they refused to see this in Ezekiel 28 is besides the point. They do not see aven theology either.
The fact that they do not see Ezk 28 as you do is EXACTLY the point
So my defense stands clear and confirmed by you. Nope – not even close = all you have done here is prove that the ‘fallen angels’ of Gen 6 cannot be good-guy angels of the Lord
It's just the Jews do NOT equate the sinning angels with Ezekiel 28. Nor do they equate sinning angels with shedim. Yes they do – King Solomon – shedim – Nephilim = archon Thank you for validating both Jewish and Gnostic theology =================
Dave" The Jews rejected Jesus because He does NOT fulfill Torah prophesy Be honest – did He? Enoch says - the Messiah will return as the ‘Lion of Judah’ – to war against the unrighteous and establish God Kingdom on earth Christians say this is the 2nd Coming of Christ
Do you deny the 2nd Coming Or do you deny NT Rev 5 "ROB" Off topic? Dodge the topic at hand. explain. WHy do you fail to explain your posts? Can't you stick to one topic at a time?
The prophesy of Enoch 300 years before Jesus said that the Messiah will come as the Lion of Judah. He will war against the unrighteous and cleans earth of the wicked. You demand that Enoch is not theology – so why do you rejects his prophesy? I have shown you that 64 of your NT verse are 100% Enoch – have you removed them from your Bible – if not why not?
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Post by rob on Dec 26, 2023 4:58:19 GMT -5
Greetings Dave Dave: The archon-messengers of Gen 6 are the sinning angels spoke of in scripture Correct – angels cannot fall – because angels do not have free will ROB" You are changing what Crone wrote.
You are saying Enoch and Jewish interpretation of Enoch is about archons rather than as the Jews write, about sinning angels. Your premise is wrong, because archons do not have free will either and do not sin either.
You are completely blind to what Crone is saying about the Jewish ideas in 300BC.
Dave" The fact that they do not see Ezk 28 as you do is EXACTLY the point
ROb: "NO it's not my point !!!! I was not looking for this evidence.
My point is Jews consider fallen angels as sinning angels is reason enough for me, and this is written 300BC, long before your Roman edit.
But you dodge my research and write over Jewish views, saying the Jews are writing about archons which do not sin. But clearly the Jews were writing about angels that sin.
If archons had sex with human women, why did the Jews write about angels having sex with woman . Jews clearly write the sinning word, so your premise is all wrong. In fact it's dead wrong and you can't see that?
And I am not interested in whether the myth is true or not true, its just evidence against your Roman Edit thing that in 300BC Jews wrote angels sinned.
Dave" all you have done here is prove that the ‘fallen angels’ of Gen 6 cannot be good-guy angels of the Lord ROB" Gobbly gook speak
I have found evidence Jews wrote about angels sinning in 300BC long before Roman edit. SO you are wrong. Ezekiel 28 is about angels that sin. Jews will not admit publicly Angels SIN because that destroys their monotheism.
I found my pre-Roman evidence, and your challenge is over.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 26, 2023 8:04:32 GMT -5
Dave: The archon-messengers of Gen 6 are the sinning angels spoke of in scripture Correct – angels cannot fall – because angels do not have free will ROB" You are changing what Crone wrote.
Crone said Cannot be angels of the Lord because angels do not have free will Cannot be angels of the Lord because angels do not have passion - lust/desire (yester ra) Cannot be angels of the Lord because angels do not procreate Agree – the ‘fallen angels’ of Gen 6 = not angels of the Lord
You are saying Enoch and Jewish interpretation of Enoch is about archons rather than as the Jews write, about sinning angels. You know this to be true – the ‘fallen angels’ of Gen 6 and messengers of the BEAST – demons - archon
Your premise is wrong, because archons do not have free will either Correct – they do not have Free Will- they are driven by (yester ra) passion – lust/desire/want
Dave" The fact that they do not see Ezk 28 as you do is EXACTLY the point ROb: "NO it's not my point !!!! I was not looking for this evidence. You say Exk 28 is the only verse that proves your satan is a self-made god Now you say – there is no pre-/Roman source for your satan god Exactly the truth
My point is Jews consider fallen angels as sinning angels is reason enough for me, and this is written 300BC, long before your Roman edit. Agree – they are the archon of Gen 6 and they are held in chains awaiting judgment
But you dodge my research and write over Jewish views, saying the Jews are writing about archons which do not sin. But clearly the Jews were writing about angels that sin. Yep the archon of Gen 6 – reproduced out of their king – a violation of God’s commandants to the BEAST
If archons had sex with human women, why did the Jews write about angels having sex with woman . Jews clearly write the sinning word, so your premise is all wrong. In fact it's dead wrong and you can't see that? You missed an important point by Crone
What did they mean in 1400 BC when Moses wrote these words OR – what did they mean in 400 BC when the Torah was written Before Rome – ‘fallen angels’ = the archon of Gen 6 – NOT Ezk 28 self-made god of evil
Dave" all you have done here is prove that the ‘fallen angels’ of Gen 6 cannot be good-guy angels of the Lord I have found evidence Jews wrote about angels sinning in 300BC long before Roman edit. SO you are wrong. Ezekiel 28 is about angels that sin.
Your word game is error – zero consistency – zero understanding of culture and time drift
Luk 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. Did Jesus send human disciples – or angels?
Luk 7:24 And when the messengers of John were departed, … Did John send other men as messengers – or did John send angels?
2Co 8:23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, Is Titus an angel – or a man?
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, Are the spies for Joshua Israeli men – or angels
Demonstrate to us how the Robert Method proves that all these angels are angels of the Lord Since they are humans – are they sinning angels – all men sin? Are these human angels cherubs or seraphim?
Please prove to us that you are not playing a word game ---------------------------------------------------------- Jews will not admit publicly Angels SIN because that destroys their monotheism. Question Mr serious – how can monotheism be affected in any way by an angel? Angels are created beings – they are not Creators – they are NOT gods How can monotheism be affected in any way by an angel?
The only way your comment is valid – is if you promote your satan to godhood co-equal with the Creator Pagan Zorasterian 101 – two gods in heaven – a god of tov and a god of ra OR –Ellen White – Great Controversy – two gods (one tov and one ra) locked in a cosmic struggle over God’s right to rule the universe
I found my pre-Roman evidence, and your challenge is over. IT SURE IS
You have proven beyond a doubt that you use your Robert Method to bend scripture to fix your traditions! – You play word games.
You have proven that the Jews never saw Ezk 28 and you force it to support Catholic satan Correction You have proven that the Jews never saw Ezk 28 and you force it to prove your satan is a god You have proven you consider your satan god co-equal with the Creator
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Post by rob on Dec 26, 2023 15:21:37 GMT -5
Greetings Dave, I am planning to go offline for a while, do some research and think some. You need to help me, as your theory has an extreme lack of scholar support. Dave" Question Mr serious – how can monotheism be affected in any way by an angel?ROB" Yes I was bothered by that statement too when I read it? Why does having an opposing elohiym power disturb Jewish monotheism? But JEWS are difficult people to assess using the www. ROB quotes Gnostic writings " Whenever you are seized and you undergo death-pangs (mortal fear), a multitude of Archons may turn on you, thinking they can capture you. And in particular, three of them will seize you, those who pose as toll collectors. Not only do they demand toll, but they take away souls by theft." -- The (First) Apochrypha of James, Nag Hammadi texts * The entities they called Archons appear to be identical to the ET’s of modern Ufology. Both Grey and Reptilian types are explicitly described in the codices. I would estimate that up to one-fifth of the core material in the NHC concerns the Archons, their origin, methods and motives." -- John Lash, ancient gnostic text expert ** Dave agrees with the quote" This is a true statementROB" You agree? Taking humans souls by theft, is a SIN, a moral SIN, and your archons do not have free will to morally sin, or destroy humans directly? ROB quotes Gnostic writings " “Archon” is a Greek word for a civic ruler. It is derived from the root ἄρχω, “to rule”, from which words like “hierarchy”, “monarch”,
Archon” is used pretty liberally in Hellenic literature. Its usually a secular term, but you can find it on a few Platonic texts, mostly as a synonym for the gods. There is no evidence that it referred to any specific kind of being in these cosmologies, instead being more of a short-hand to a deity’s function.Dave agrees with the quote" Agree OT called them shedim - demons NT calls them archon Islam calls them Jinn Catholocism called them demons Modern man called them superstitionsROB" you agree, that the term archon is a function of deity, not a description of a creature being? I doubt you agree to this idea? You state often archons are creatures using Gnostic writings, born of some matter. This statement opposes this view, but you agree?? ROB quotes JEWISH writings " The 2nd-century rabbi Shimon bar Yochai cursed everyone who explained the term sons of God as angels. He stated sons of God were actually sons of judges or sons of nobles. Evil was no longer attributed to heavenly forces, now it was dealt as an "evil inclination" (yetzer hara) within humans.[31] ROB" So this JEW does not want Jews seeing sinning angels any more, but see the GEN 6 thing as sinning humans having sex with godly human women, same as Rob's view. ROB quotes CRONE writings " web.archive.org/web/20190923202013/https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Book_of_Watchers.pdf The Book of Watchers is the first of five or more separate works which together make up the Ethiopic Book of Enoch (known as 1 Enoch).4 It is based on the assumption that the Biblical "sons of God" are angels, the normal understanding of the term in antiquity,5 and it casts the angels as sinners.
ROB" Assuming Enoch is an influence upon Jews, as CRONE also agrees, than the JEWS wrote about the SONS of GOD, as sinning angels. Dave changes these words into archons, but you never agree the archon can be sinning archons. So you ignore the term "sinning" here and completely change the word meanings. CRONE states " the normal understanding of the term in antiquity" , not agreeing to Dave's word meaning game "archons who have not free will but do RA, not morally sin" ROB quotes CRONE writings " One reason why the Jews turned against the story is that angels, both pure and fallen, were getting out of control. There is a fair amount of evidence for veneration or actual worship of angels among the Jews of the first centuries CE,22 sometimes involving the angels in general and sometimes a principal angel cast as mediator between God and mankind; speculation about such an intermediary had probably contributed to the rise of Christianity, and devotion to angels and/or an angelic viceregent (notably in the form of Metatron) continued in Judaism after the first two centuries, too.23 Gnostics also operated with the notion of an intermediary, but they postulated that he was evil and filled the void between the all too distant God and mankind with demonic beings, convinced, like Pseudo-Enoch, that human beings were victim of superior forces of evil beyond their control. Gnostic myths abound in sexual union by seduction or rape between evil archons and primordial humans, now by direct retelling of the Watcher story,24 now by distant echo of it (or independently), and the result is sometimes called abortions (Hebr. nephalim, an alternative understanding of the nephilim of Gen. 6:1).2 ROB" Interesting how Jews change over time. The rabbis reacted to these developments by both rejecting the story of the fallen angels and belittling the angels as a class.28 28. Noted by Bamberger, Fallen Angels 92. ROB" Dave belittles my research and CRONE assessments of the idea of Jews who once wrote of "sinning angels" back in 300 BC. Dave" Yes – Jews do not have a satan god – they struggle with (yester ra) Exactly my teaching – how does his help you in any wayROB" The JEWS wrote the "angels sin" in 300BC, than change this to "SONS of GOD sin as humans" The fact is the Jews changed their religious beliefs over time. Like the yester ra thing, it is a Jewish invention over time, and is not found in the torah to begin with. Dave" the normal understanding of the term in antiquity, - OT bad guys were shedim – Thank you for your support
ROB" CRONE does not state the creatures were messenger-archons, you are forcing your views unto her writings She is saying the Jews changed beliefs from " angels that sin" to " humans that sin". My point is the earliest account we have of Jewish writings from 300BC is they wrote about " angels that sin". Now stop twisting and changing the word game into something else. The evidence is before you in English words.... accept it. Dave" Yes – the ‘angels’ (messengers) sinned in Gen 6 – and are locked away for their sinROB" Not what Jews say. They used to say "angels sin" now thanks to some Rabbi, they say the "humans sin" , they do not entertain the idea that messengers sin, like shedim, nor doe they speak of archons from Gen 6 either. You are wrong to assume this. ================ devotion to angels and/or an angelic viceregent (notably in the form of Metatron) continued in Judaism after the first two centuries, too.23 Dave" 1- Metatron is not Torah- is is a figure from the Levant Metatron, or Matatron, is an angel in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam mentioned three times in the Talmud, in a few brief passages in the Aggadah, and in mystical Kabbalistic texts within Rabbinic literature. 2- Metatron is believed to be one of only two angels who was first a mortal human being on earth before ascending to heaven and becoming an angel.ROB"SO you are happy like JEWS are happy to live outside of the torah, and invent traditions and precepts of men? Dave" Absolutely – Gen 6 You know I am a believer – thank you for validating Gnostic Christian theologyROB" DO you have any Jewish writings that speak of archons as creatures from Gen 6 , as you claim? I would like to see Jewish writings about this claim? u.osu.edu/vanzandt/2019/02/11/david-icke-love-and-lizard-peopleDavid Icke: Love and Lizard People | The Psychology of … www.encyclopedia.com/.../archonsarchons | Encyclopedia.com www.wikiwand.com/en/GnosticGnosticism - Wikiwand 10 Bizarre Early Christian Sects by Larry Jimenez listverse.com/2014/02/07/10-bizarre-early-christian-sects/In the first two centuries of the Christian era, the New Testament had not yet been finalized and the definitive orthodox statement of belief, the Nicene Creed, was still many years in the future. The Roman world was home to many sects labeled “Christian” that would seem odd and downright weird to us this side of the Council of Nicea. If you think that modern Christian sects are so variegated and confusing, read onROB" Weird Can't find anything written by Jews on the term "archons", all references seem to lean on Gnostic literature instead.
DO you have any links to Jewish writings about archons Dave, say the Gen 6 account? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 26, 2023 16:41:39 GMT -5
Dave" Question Mr serious – how can monotheism be affected in any way by an angel? ROB" Yes I was bothered by that statement too when I read it? Why does having an opposing elohiym power disturb Jewish monotheism?
I do not believe you are as dull as you pretend Jewish Monotheism = one true God in heaven - ABSOLUTE Jewish Monotheism also is filled with other- gods on the ground that are nothing more than created beast – that hinder man and creation – that accuse and oppose man
You and Ellen White teach two co-equal gods facing off in heaven – it is blasphemy A cosmic struggle in heaven (a god of tov and a god of ra) contending for God’s throne – it is blasphemy ----------------------------------------------
ROB quotes Gnostic writings " Whenever you are seized and you undergo death-pangs (mortal fear), a multitude of Archons may turn on you, thinking they can capture you. And in particular, three of them will seize you, those who pose as toll collectors. Not only do they demand toll, but they take away souls by theft." -- The (First) Apochrypha of James, Nag Hammadi texts *
The entities they called Archons appear to be identical to the ET’s of modern Ufology. Both Grey and Reptilian types are explicitly described in the codices. I would estimate that up to one-fifth of the core material in the NHC concerns the Archons, their origin, methods and motives." -- John Lash, ancient gnostic text expert **
Dave agrees with the quote" This is a true statement
ROB" You agree? Taking humans souls by theft, is a SIN, a moral SIN, and your archons do not have free will to morally sin, or destroy humans directly? Nope – they just cause man to be sidetracked – man commits spiritual suicide If they had Free Will – they know their end why don’t they repent? Answer – not their programming – (yester ra) – no choice
ROB quotes Gnostic writings " “Archon” is a Greek word for a civic ruler Dave agrees with the quote" Agree OT called them shedim - demons NT calls them archon Islam calls them Jinn Catholicism called them demons Modern man called them superstitions
ROB" you agree, that the term archon is a function of deity, not a description of a creature being? I IT is both – the serpent in the garden was biological – it is a beast of the field – that God had made 100% creature – verified by King Solomon, Book of Jubilees, NT, and Nag Hammadi Library These creatures were/are the other gods of the OT IT is both
ROB quotes JEWISH writings " The 2nd-century rabbi Shimon bar Yochai cursed everyone who explained the term sons of God as angels. He stated sons of God were actually sons of judges or sons of nobles. Evil was no longer attributed to heavenly forces, now it was dealt as an "evil inclination" (yetzer hara) within humans.[31] ROB" So this JEW does not want Jews seeing sinning angels any more, but see the GEN 6 thing as sinning humans having sex with godly human women, same as Rob's view. Yep – it is the Sethian view – it is your teaching here – or was There have always been two types of Jews – spiritual Pharisees and non-spiritual Sadducees
Information from the Talmud does not sound like the Jewish kabbalah Your understanding of Judaism and its culture is missing
If I can find another Christian author saying Ellen White is a lier – will you believe
ROB quotes CRONE writings " The Book of Watchers casts the angels as sinners. ROB" Assuming Enoch is an influence upon Jews, as CRONE also agrees, than the JEWS wrote about the SONS of GOD, as sinning angels. Dave changes these words into archons, but you never agree the archon can be sinning archons. ABSOLUTE LIE MR SERIOUS -= and why I do not take your comment seriously
Enoch is all about Gen 6 – sons of God Enoch calls them ‘fallen angels’ Scripture calls them sinning angels
Enoch says they are locked away Jude says they are locked away -----------------------------------
My point is the earliest account we have of Jewish writings from 300BC is they wrote about "angels that sin". Dave" Yes – the ‘angels’ (messengers) sinned in Gen 6 – and are locked away for their sin ROB" Not what Jews say. They used to say "angels sin" now thanks to some Rabbi, they say the "humans sin" , Sorry Robert Gen 3 happened 7 generations before Gen 6
================
DO you have any links to Jewish writings about archons Dave, say the Gen 6 account? Its called the Book of Enoch – also discussed in the Book of Jubilees – and Book of Giants- don’t forget Jude and Peter as well as the Nag Hammadi
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Post by rob on Dec 31, 2023 16:27:13 GMT -5
Dave" Enoch is all about Gen 6 – sons of God Enoch calls them ‘fallen angels’ Scripture calls them sinning angels
Enoch says they are locked away Jude says they are locked away
ROB" If these word games mean the archons are messengers once sinning, and now locked away so they cannot make sinning processes upon human ever again, what are you saying Dave?
1) Since when does an archon having only yester ra, be chosen to be a messenger of the Lord? 2) Now you say the archons can sin? but this is not a moral sin, a natural yester ra wander from the Lord.... both different definitions of sin for Dave....not as the torah says... One definition 3) how come archons practice sinning processes on humans still? so not all locked away are they? 4) Prove to me "lock away" is true? I already discussed this before? Why do you still raise the same views over and over? How is a chain of darkness and same as a chain of steel? Not the same idea?
When you sin you become a prisoner to sin, captured by chains of darkness? Not locked away in some literal prison, as some authorities might do to you. Though this idea is also true, but was Paul who was locked away prevented from witnessing to others who came to see him? Come on Dave, discuss my discussions. Can you actually do this?
Same logic presented by the torah.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Dec 31, 2023 18:55:29 GMT -5
Dave" Enoch is all about Gen 6 – sons of God Enoch calls them ‘fallen angels’ Scripture calls them sinning angels
Enoch says they are locked away Jude says they are locked away
ROB" If these word games mean the archons are messengers once sinning, and now locked away so they cannot make sinning processes upon human ever again, what are you saying Dave?
It is not my invention – it is Jewish demonology in existence before Jesus Christ
1) Since when does an archon having only yester ra, Gen 3:1 the serpent is a beast of the field that God had made – beast = (yester ra)
1) Since when does an archon having only yester ra, be chosen to be a messenger of the Lord? There are several examples of God sending evil spirits – fiery serpents – lying spirits
2) Now you say the archons can sin? but this is not a moral sin, a natural yester ra Yep the desire to reproduce – in invisible form and in visible form = (yester ra) While do you think they call it bestiality
bestiality 1: sexual relations between a human being and an animal (beast) 2: the condition or status of a lower (see LOWER entry 3 sense 3) animal (beast) … the difference between bestiality and humanity … 3: display or gratification of bestial traits or impulses (yester ra)
3) how come archons practice sinning processes on humans still? so not all locked away are they?
Correct – the only archon locked away are the approx. 200 archon of Gen 6 and their Nephilim 1- only the archon on earth were destroyed by the flood 2- book od Jubilees says 10% well held back to continue plaguing man after the flood 3- the archon that were not involved with Gen are still very much alive and well
4) Prove to me "lock away" is true? I already discussed this before? Why do you still raise the same views over and over? How is a chain of darkness and same as a chain of steel? Not the same idea?
Jewish demonology says locked away awaiting judgment
2nd Book of Enoch – or Slavic Enoch 28:1 THE men took me on to the fifth heaven and placed me, and there I saw many and countless soldiers, called Grigori, of human appearance, and their size was greater than that of great giants and their faces withered, and the silence of their mouths perpetual, and there was no service on the fifth heaven, and I said to the men who were with me:
2 Wherefore are these very withered and their faces melancholy, and their mouths silent, and wherefore is there no service on this heaven?
3 And they said to me: These are the Grigori, who with their prince Satanail rejected the Lord of light, and after them are those who are held in great darkness on the second heaven, and three of them went down on to earth from the Lord's throne, to the place Ermon, and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill Ermon 1 and saw the daughters of men how good they are, and took to themselves wives, and befouled the earth with their deeds, who in all times of their age made lawlessness and mixing, and giants are born and marvellous big men and great enmity.
4 And therefore God judged them with great judgement, and they weep for their brethren and they will be punished on the Lord's great day.
5 And I said to the Grigori: 'I saw your brethren and their works, and their great torments, and I prayed for them, but the Lord has condemned them to be under earth till heaven and earth shall end for ever.'
Come on Dave, discuss my discussions. Can you actually do this?
The only theology I am interested in is the Theology / demonology of Jesus Christ, His Disciples, and His original followers of the Book of Acts It incudes King Solomon, Enoch, and the Jinn + other gods of the whole world
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Post by rob on Jan 1, 2024 1:01:11 GMT -5
Greetings Dave You said some nice things. There are several examples of God sending evil spirits – fiery serpents – lying spiritsFirst I would say GOD did not send them, God allowed them to come. You forget why the "evil spirits – fiery serpents – lying spirits" let's called them by their Hebrew word, OK "saraph" Nu 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Seems like GOD sent the saraph to kill his own saved Israel? That would make GOD guilty of murderer?Nu 21:4 ¶ And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. So what is happening here? Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. Israel is choosing another Saviour. Ho 13:5 ¶ I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought. Israel starts off great...but get's discouraged. Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me. Here is the reason here, Israel forgets their Saviour and chooses another elohiym power. Now for readers to fathom, there are several elohiym powers on earth apart from GOD. Humans are an elohiym power knowing good and evil. Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: Who else is an elohiym power? De 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not De 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. Israel had forgotten their Saviour and turned to another false elohiym power, the devils who are shedim, and also function as saraph. Nu 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. Notice here after Israel sins, they ask GOD to save them again and take away the saraph elohiym powers of death these creatures have. So why did GOD allow the Saraph creatures to come? Because Israel wanted another god. Secondly Dave posted " Jewish demonology says locked away awaiting judgmentROB replies" true, even Paul was locked away in chains of darkness, but Paul was still allowed to preach and teach those who came to see Paul. I think your bias is noticeable. Paul was awaiting judgement too. A chain of darkness does not imply the creatures cannot do things further things to human. You did not prove your view to your readers Dave. Mr 5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid. Here is a a thousand demons free to possess a human, not chained away in as you claim. SO your statement of chains of darkness does not mean total restriction. It means the demons were restricted to earth, not allowed to tempt other unfallen beings in other unfallen worlds, but only tempt humans living on earth, and even than GOD controls and limits their every move. What is interesting if the humans sin against GOD following demons, what actions do the demons do with God, and their relationship to God when Demons sin? DO demons sin like humans sin? John says yes 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. And Jesus said yes Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Murder and lying are sins. However Dave says lying is not a sin, and that demons do not morally sin because they have no free will to sin. But free will is the power to reason and choose. If the Bible says the demons sin, why should humans be led to believe they do not sin like humans sin? Jews also mention the human is born with yester ra, but the Scriptures do not mention this borning process, nor is the phrase yester ra even in the torah like this. Jews are inventing a tradition and a precept of men. An invention based on two Hebrew words in a sentence among other Hebrew words. The Hebrew word "aven" is a Hebrew word, and also a borning concept, referring to "epi-genetical potential within us. But Jews do not see these Hebrew word and so the use of some Hebrew word meanings is lost among Jews. ================= ROBPP" Come on Dave, discuss my discussions. Can you actually do this?Dave replied " The only theology I am interested in is the Theology / demonology of Jesus Christ, His Disciples, and His original followers of the Book of Acts It incudes King Solomon, Enoch, and the Jinn + other gods of the whole world" Answer NO, Dave did not discuss the "chains of darkness" idea. So what do you do with a discussion when the other party does not discuss? Dave could have answered this easily with 1) Jews quotes ""chains of darkness" meaning the one are locked away in steel chains 2) Discussing the "chains of darkness" using Bible verses But Dave does not do this. I note from previous Jews quotes that darkness is a symbol of sin SO sinning creatures are chained by their own sinning, makes sense to me. And even Jews. Sure the literal chains of steel are in the Bible, but NOT used here. Paul was literally chained in steel too, but allowed to witness. Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. How does GOD open the blind, to bring humans out of prison? Re 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: How can rich humans be blind? This can only mean the humans are blinded by sin, and thus darkness is also a symbol of sin. Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. QUestion: How many are sitting down on a throne here? One or two? Answer: two Not possible in Dave's view for the Father and the Father expression is the same Being, so onely ONE sits on the throne. Does not the verse say the SON sits down with the Father? And the SON opens your blind eyes and frees you from the chains of darkness.
Re 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Good advice, start listening to the torah Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 1, 2024 2:19:57 GMT -5
There are several examples of God sending evil spirits – fiery serpents – lying spirits First I would say GOD did not send them, God allowed them to come. First – you need to be honest – nothing counts unless you are
Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit 1Sa 16:14 … an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. 1Sa 18:10 … the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, 1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people,
You forget why the "evil spirits – fiery serpents –" let's called them by their Hebrew word, OK "saraph" Rejected as hard as possible You are playing a word game to bend scripture The subject here = serpents that burn – NOT SERIPHIM ANGELS
Seems like GOD sent the saraph to kill his own saved Israel? That would make GOD guilty of murderer? God killed all the first born of Egypt – isn’t that murder God destroyed the Egyptian Army in the Red Sea - isn’t that murder God laid waste to Sodom and Gomorrah – isn’t that murder God commanded Israel to commit genocide more than once – isn’t that murder
Ho 13:6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me. Here is the reason here, Israel forgets their Saviour Entropy of memory – every time I suggest it you mock me -------------------------------------------
Now for readers to fathom, there are several elohiym powers on earth apart from GOD. Correct – on earth opposing man – not in heaven opposing God right to rule the universe
Humans are an elohiym power knowing good and evil. Correct – man on earth opposing other men – not in heaven opposing God right to rule the universe
Who else is an elohiym power? De 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. Yep – other gods of the Levant – demons – devils – shedim – archon – Jinn – satanas - beast
De 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not Yep – other gods of the Levant – demons – devils – shedim – archon – Jinn – satanas - beast
Nu 21:7 So why did GOD allow the Saraph creatures to come? Because Israel wanted another god. Not only did God allow it He sent the fiery serpents onto Israel But you are not honest with scripture
Secondly Dave posted "Jewish demonology says locked away awaiting judgment ROB replies" true, even Paul was locked away in chains of darkness, but Paul was still allowed to preach and teach those who came to see Paul. I think your bias is noticeable.
Dave posted "Jewish demonology says locked away awaiting judgment Dave replied "The only theology I am interested in is the Theology / demonology of Jesus Christ, His Disciples, and His original followers of the Book of Acts It includes King Solomon, Enoch, and the Jinn + other gods of the whole world"
Answer NO, Dave did not discuss the "chains of darkness" idea. Dave posted the Jewish view of the time of Jesus, His Disciples, and His original followers of the Book of Acts
So what do you do with a discussion when the other party does not discuss? You can discuss all you want – it does not change the facts Dave posted the Jewish view of the time of Jesus, His Disciples, and His original followers of the Book of Acts This is the only relevant fact that matters You can discuss all you want – it does not change history
Mr 5:15 Here is a a thousand demons free to possess a human, not chained away in as you claim. Correct – not all of the archon are held in chains – only those involved in Gen 6
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Post by rob on Jan 1, 2024 5:35:55 GMT -5
D" The subject here = serpents that burn – NOT SERIPHIM ANGELS R" Not quite correct Dave because Nu 21:8 And the LORD <Y@hovah> said <'amar> unto Moses <Mosheh>, Make <`asah> thee a fiery serpent <saraph>, and set <suwm> it upon a pole
The noun mentioned here is saraph. Nu 21:6 And the LORD <Y@hovah> sent <shalach> fiery <saraph> serpents <nachash>
GOD sent snakes with the adjective saraph, as you correctly say.
And Moses interpreted God's command as
Nu 21:9 And Moses <Mosheh> made <`asah> a serpent <nachash> of brass <n@chosheth>, and put <suwm> it upon a pole <nec>,
So what does all this mean?
D"The subject here = serpents that burn – NOT SERIPHIM ANGELS R" yes and no, both ideas are true, yes the adjective saraph meaning burning snakes did bite Israel
but GOD told Moses to make a noun called burning and place it upon a pole.
Question: what did Moses know what burning looked like? Answer: He didn't, he went back to the earthly literal not the heavenly literal.
Now Dave, discuss if you agree with my discussion of your discussion.
D" God killed all the first born of Egypt – isn’t that murder R" No ..it is God's strange work to terminate those living under probation
D" Correct – on earth opposing man – not in heaven opposing God right to rule the universe R" Hmm? The saraph as a noun, was once an saraph burning with love around the throne of God in heaven.
Now it's kicked out unto the earth. Why was it kicked out? Because it sinned and is now chained in darkness on the earth.
D" Not only did God allow it He sent the fiery serpents onto Israel But you are not honest with scripture R" I agree with your first but NOT your second statement is written to mean God created the serpents to tempt and trial humans at God's will. God would not use sinning angels to trial and tempt humans to sin.
If I am not honest with Scripture, how come I look up all the verses while you ignore Ezekiel 28, calling this word cherub a word meaning about man?
Here is a word meaning about a snake, yet the word also applies to heavenly beings too. The word cherub can have such applications too.
The word messenger also applies to humans and cherubs.
D" Correct – not all of the archon are held in chains – only those involved in Gen 6 R" what so you agree with me now, that sinning messengers called false elohym powers do exist in the Scripures? Are these beings called archons? maybe in the Greek times they might be, but in the Hebrew they were called shedim or princes. Now this leads to the final question, are these burning saraph creatures "opposing" God? Question: Does sin oppose God? Not as Dave claims " in heaven opposing God right to rule the universe" No creature can do they, so why even say this idea?
When a creature sins, the sinning means they are opposing powers from God wishing to flow into their life.
chata means to miss. Something missing is also the same as opposing. Why am I missing relationship to God? Because I am opposing God's love, or opposing God's grace? Or opposing God's truth. So when one does missing, the actions of wandering away from love become stronger. The person lies, cheats and lusts, commits abuse and makes strong desires to hurt people.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 1, 2024 7:18:18 GMT -5
D" The subject here = serpents that burn – NOT SERIPHIM ANGELS R" Not quite correct Dave because GOD sent snakes with the adjective saraph, as you correctly say. Correct – and the verse does not say anything more
Your attempt to force scripture here to mean seraphim angels is error Your attempt to rewrite scripture to fit Ellen White It is not honest - it is not respectful to the word of God
D" God killed all the first born of Egypt – isn’t that murder R" No ..it is God's strange work to terminate those living under probation Word game
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Post by rob on Jan 1, 2024 15:46:46 GMT -5
Dave" Your attempt to force scripture here to mean seraphim angels is error
Are you blind to my presentation Dave, as the second speaker now is that all you have , ignore my presentation?
Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses , Make thee a fiery serpent <saraph>, and set it upon a pole
The noun mentioned here is saraph.
Nu 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery <saraph> serpents <nachash>
GOD sent snakes with the adjective saraph, as you correctly say.
And Moses interpreted God's command as
Nu 21:9 And Moses made a serpent <nachash> of brass , and put it upon a pole,
So what does all this mean?
Dave refuses to discuss. that is what the verses mean. So if the second speaker refuses to discuss what the other second speaker presents, your debate Dave loses
Clearly GOD told Moses to do something Moses could not do
Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses , Make thee a fiery serpent <saraph>, and set it upon a pole
Today we would place a fire on the pole. However a fire cannot exist without something to burn, so this does not fit either.
Clearly the burning burns in a bush without consuming the bush.
So what does Moses do, he makes copper snake on a pole.
What did GOD want on the pole, a "burning".
Now if you look up what this word means and the contexts, it refers to burning cherubs around the throne of GOD, as well as burning poison inside of snakes. So poetry similes kick in.
But Dave ignores the verse and refuses to comment on the noun use of the Hebrew word
D" It is not honest - it is not respectful to the word of God
Rob" so out of respect to the Hebrew, we do not discuss what the Hebrew word means?
Does Scripture teach to read Hebrew words or does it say not to, because the word meanings are sealed?
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
SO the word meaning is sealed for Dave, because Dave prefers the traditions and precepts of men, rather than ask GOD what the word saraph means in the sacred torah.
Isa 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding,
But this happens only if you ask... And Dave says it is disrespectful to ask God.
Now was these saraph burning creatures opposing God? Well they were biting Israel and killing them, hence they died without being saved. God had to save Israel all over again especially the dying ones with a simple faithful look towards the burning on the pole.
So does that mean the saraph were opposing God by making the humans sin, so they would die while sinning? Is death opposing God?
God is living, death is not living. Surely the word opposing fits here? Dave would say otherwise.
God is sinless. Humans sin. Surely the word opposing fits here?
The saraph also sin because they murder humans here with their burning bite. Therefore the sarpah also oppose GOD, by associative logic.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 2, 2024 3:35:04 GMT -5
Dave" Your attempt to force scripture here to mean seraphim angels is error Are you blind to my presentation Dave, as the second speaker now is that all you have , ignore my presentation? Your presentation is absolute error – Robert Method nonsense
Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses , Make thee a fiery serpent <saraph>, and set it upon a pole The noun mentioned here is saraph. The direct object = serpent
GOD sent snakes with the adjective saraph, as you correctly say. Correct – that is all this scripture says
Nu 21:9 And Moses made a serpent <nachash> of brass , and put it upon a pole, So what does all this mean? Dave refuses to discuss. that is what the verses mean.
Let’s see – this must be really hard – it says – Moses made a serpent of brass and put it on a pole What do you think this verse says?
Clearly GOD told Moses to do something Moses could not do Why couldn’t Moses make a brass serpent and put it on a pole? ---------------------------------------------
Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses , Make thee a fiery serpent <saraph>, and set it upon a pole Today we would place a fire on the pole. Absolute nonsense – today we would put a glowing serpent on a pole
What did GOD want on the pole, a "burning". Not only is this nonsense it is childishly stupid D" It is not honest - it is not respectful to the word of God
Rob" so out of respect to the Hebrew, we do not discuss what the Hebrew word means? You are attempting to rewrite scripture –
This discussion over – come back when you are serious and honest
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Post by rob on Jan 2, 2024 6:07:31 GMT -5
Jeff Benner Lexicon
V) 4V\ (4V\ S-RP) — Burn: [df: PrV] [freq. 118] (vf: Paal, Niphal, Pual, Piel, Participle) |kjv: burn, kindle, made| {str: 5635, 8313} Nm) 4V\ (4V\ S-RP) — Seraph: A venomous serpent from its burning venom. [df: PrV] [freq. 7] |kjv: fiery, serpent, seraphim| {str: 8314} Nf1) )TV\ ()TV\ SR-PH) — Burning: [df: hprV] [freq. 13] |kjv: burn, burning| {str: 8316} hf1) )TV\Q ()TV\Q MS-R-PH) — Burning: [df: hprVm] [freq. 2] |kjv: burning| {str: 4955}
Strong's
08314. Prs saraph, saw-rawf' Search for 08314 in KJV from 8313; burning, i.e. (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically, a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color):--fiery (serpent), seraph.
Dave's response "This discussion over – come back when you are serious and honest
ROB replies" I am serious and honest.... you need to apologize
Jeff Benner translates the word H8314 as seraph Strong's translates the word as burning, also a creature of some kind.
The verse I showed you says
Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses <Mosheh>, Make thee "saraph", and set it upon a pole
And the Hebrew Hub software says
Text Analysis
559 [e] וַיֹּ֨אמֶר way-yō-mer And said Conj-w | V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms 3068 [e] יְהוָ֜ה Yah-weh Yahweh N-proper-ms 413 [e] אֶל־ ’el- to Prep 4872 [e] מֹשֶׁ֗ה mō-šeh, Moses N-proper-ms 6213 [e] עֲשֵׂ֤ה ‘ă-śêh Make V-Qal-Imp-ms לְךָ֙ lə-ḵā to you Prep | 2ms 8314 [e] שָׂרָ֔ף śā-rāp̄, a fiery [serpent] N-ms
ROB" the [firey] is supplied, not in the text The word sarap is Noun-masculine-singular
Now how serious do I have to be? Find some scholars who speak of this Noun-masculine-singular creature upon the pole?
Adam Clarke Commentary "Verse 8. Make thee a fiery serpent] Literally, make thee a seraph.
ROB" I mean how serious do I have to get. You need to apologize.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers (8) Make thee a fiery serpent.—The single Hebrew word which is here employed is saraph (a seraph), or burning one, as in Numbers 21:6, where the word nehashim—serpents—occurs also. The meaning is explained in the following verse, in which it is said that Moses made “a serpent of brass.”
ROB" Now to Dave's defense, I cannot find any scholar, willing to take the saraph any further as a poetry simile or to investigate what this word means in Hebrew meanings across all the Bible torah. It seems I am the only one to investigate.
D"You are attempting to rewrite scripture –
ROB" What looking up what a simile means is rewriting Scripture is it?
Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Not a single Christian-Jew was lost as a result of reading Daniel and Matthew together. And this event happened during a Jewish feast.
Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
SO this is a real literal dragon with seven heads and ten horns is it Dave?
Dave says we are not allowed to rewrite Scripture symbols and find the similes?
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
Here the King James translates the serpent and dragon as the same Creature, satan.
But Dave rewrites Scripture saying this is a different creature called in Greek Satanas.
Yet you accuse me of not being honest and rewriting Scripture?
And yet you supply not a single scholar to agrees with your rewriting of Scripture, and this Greek word you dearly cling to.
All translations I read make Satan and Satanas the same word, even if they come from different origins.
You are not being serious and honest with me, you pick and choose your own rules and condemn me for following the torah and looking up what similes of poetry in the Bible mean.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 2, 2024 6:51:16 GMT -5
Dave's response "This discussion over – come back when you are serious and honest ROB replies" I am serious and honest.... you need to apologize BULL SHIT – you attempt to make Numbers 21 about angels called seraphim – is absolute bullshit
Adam Clarke Commentary "Verse 8. Make thee a fiery serpent] Literally, make thee a seraph. ROB" I mean how serious do I have to get. You need to apologize.
H8314 – שָׂרָף - śârâph From H8313; burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color): - fiery (serpent), seraph.
Does not make Numbers 21 about angels called seraphim Could be about poisonous snakes
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers The meaning is explained in the following verse, in which it is said that Moses made “a serpent of brass.” Of course – polished – shinning – reflecting – made of brass BECASUSE Exo 20:4 Do not make for yourself a graven image , or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above THEREFORE Cannot be heavenly angels called seraphim – but earthly creatures called serpents - DUH
ROB" Now to Dave's defense, I cannot find any scholar, willing to take the saraph any further as a poetry simile or to investigate what this word means in Hebrew meanings across all the Bible torah. It seems I am the only one to investigate.
BOOM – The Robert Method – you cannot tell the difference between a metaphor and reality ROB" What looking up what a simile means is rewriting Scripture is it? BOOM – The Robert Method – you cannot tell the difference between a simile and reality
sim·i·le a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g., You are as brave as a lion, You are crazy like a fox ). You claim that he lion and the fox come alive with their own identities and story Ezk 28 the King of Tyre is like a covering cherub – you claim the cherub comes alive with his own identity and story
You violate grammar with ease D"You are attempting to rewrite scripture –
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