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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2022 5:25:48 GMT -5
Greetings
D" They are messengers – you just want to use the angel term so it fits your Roman doctrine
R" No Dave, the term messengers is a function, not a creature kind.
Humans can be messengers. Cherub can be messengers.
As a creature kind, the human is called "adam from adamuh"
Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
For the cherub, we find the creature kind is also created
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
So the cherub was created sinless, just as the human was created sinless.
Both creature kinds can be messengers.
You should address a creature by its creature kind name.
Do you understand what I am saying, and agree with me that, angels is the English term for cherub.
RP"The sinning angels are not allowed to obey and empower themselves. D" YET THIS IS YOUR ENTIRE TEACHING – satan empowered himself to change his entire role with creation – against God’s Will – then your satan is so empowered that he can alter God’s Plan against God’s Will – force God to change / adjust His Plan
R" correct, that is the fallen angels major sin. He empowers himself, to change functions and force God to change, not that God can be dictated to, God is more powerful than a creature, but the character of GOD is brought out into question by the sinning angel, and this is a problem not easily resolved by God.
Sin is really a bigger problem than you make it, with yester ra, etc. Sinning is a really big problem, especially if the sinner points back at you the sinless one. The opposer can lie and cheat and deceive. God can't do any of these things.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created things for humans. 1Jo 3:8 ...the devil sinneth from the beginning.
Look at these two verses. The devil-shedim-angel sinned before God created things for humans.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 20, 2022 7:40:56 GMT -5
D" They are messengers – you just want to use the angel term so it fits your Roman doctrine R" No Dave, the term messengers is a function, not a creature kind. - Agreed Humans can be messengers. - Agreed Cherub can be messengers. – Agreed (google) Christianity – types of angels Archangels Angels - can be messengers Seraphim - can be messengers Cherubim - can be messengers Thrones - can be messengers Dominions - can be messengers Virtues - can be messengers Powers- can be messengers Principalities (Paul and Luke) - can be messengers
Principalities = archon King Solomon called the shedim Some people call them demonic Some people call them the serpent race Islam calls them Jinn -------------------
For the cherub, we find the creature kind is also created Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
The Beast of Revelation was never perfect – or God’s friend The Beast of revelation appeared in a plurality Rev 12:3 The Beast of Revelation appeared ready to devour and consume Rev 12:4 The New Testament does NOT support your satan church doctrine
Do you understand what I am saying, and agree with me that, angels is the English term for cherub. YES cherub are one type of angel in the heavens – none of them are the Beast of Revelation
RP"The sinning angels are not allowed to obey and empower themselves. D" YET THIS IS YOUR ENTIRE TEACHING – satan empowered himself to change his entire role with creation – against God’s Will – then your satan is so empowered that he can alter God’s Plan against God’s Will – force God to change / adjust His Plan R" correct, that is the fallen angels major sin. He empowers himself, to change functions and force God to change,
DO YOU BELIEVE YOURSELF OR NOT? Why do you teach contradiction? Why don’t all your contradictions help you answer the question I ask of you?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2022 15:16:11 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
The Beast of Revelation was never perfect – or God’s friend
Rob" that is wrong Dave, easy to prove using only Rev 12 itself.
Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven
A War means that before the war there was peace. Hence the beast lived at peace with God, and afterwards began to war against God.
Re 12:8 ...neither was their place found any more in heaven.
To be ejected from heaven, implies the beast was not immediately or suddenly ejected, but became to be ejected, because of it's sinning.
Only you GNostic Writings speak of GOD creating a sinning creature immediately, but than you say GOD never creates sinning creatures. OK, so GOD created entropy with the creature and the entropy makes the creature not God's friend? But we humans are made also with matter with entropy, and yet we are and can be God's friend, or God's enemy. Really how silly your theories are Dave.
It's hard enough to get you to read the torah, but near impossible if you also read another so called inspired book outside of the torah, your so called Greek edit.
And you claim I follow a Roman edit? I don't think so.
The Beast of revelation appeared in a plurality Rev 12:3
Rob" Reading poetry similes is hard and open to different views, so what do you do in cases like this? You read other poetry where the language is similar to get ideas of what the poetry symbols are about. A beast power with 7 heads, means 7 hills upon which the power sits,, refers to Rome using Daniel to unlock Rev. The two books go together. I will not push any further confusion unto you, you have your own view, it seems.
The Beast of Revelation appeared ready to devour and consume Rev 12:4
Rob" Yes. Does this mean the beast was always a consuming power, or became a consuming power?
What clues are there in the poetry of Rev 12?
Re 12:1 ... upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Did the woman have 12 stars immediately, or did the 12 stars come over time, was her status immediate or gradual?
Re 12:2 ... travailing in birth,
Here we see the borning process is gradual, over time, not immediate. So all the poetry is a gradual development over time?
Notice the poetry parallels to the opposing beast power
Re 12:3 .... seven crowns upon his heads.
Did the beast power get his 7 heads immediately or gradually over time.
Because this is a parallel, the answer has to be similar to the way the 12 stars came to be.
Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven...
How can a beast power take away a third of stars immediately? so this is gradually over time
Re 12:9 ...which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
Was the beast power a deceiver immediately, or gradually? Did he take his angels with him, immediately or gradually?
We see the deceiver deceiving Eve in the garden to sin, but twisting the truth and confusing her. Did this process happen immediately or gradually?
It seems to me the whole poetry passage is the gradual development of the beast, gradually getting more deceiving and gradually getting more at war with God, until God ejected the deceiver from heaven to earth, and He now lives on earth with his angels.
Re 12:10 .... for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,
Notice what Rev 12 calls this beast power, an accuser of humans, not some power tempting humans to sin.
Re 12:12 ..for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
The devil is a devouring beast because he knows his time is short, running out.
Re 12:13 ... he persecuted the woman ...
The devil persecutes humans....
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
At the end of Rev 12 we catch a reason why the beast power was ejected from heaven in the first place,
It refused to guard the ten commandments of the Father, and uphold the testimonies of Jesus, the Father's Son.
Now, notice I do not need to go anywhere else to prove the beast power is a sinning power and was required to uphold the ten commandments of the Father, but refused to do so.
This passage is a poetry parallel, and while the passage is about humans and GOD, it is also about cherubs and GOD.
Both parallel each other, and thus we see why the sinning took place and why the human have a role to end the sinning process and witness to GOD about the sin problem.
D"DO YOU BELIEVE YOURSELF OR NOT? Why do you teach contradiction?
R" I fail to understand your answer, Dave. Sinning is a process of using self. In order to empower self, you have to be sinning.
Scripture says our powers come to us by faith in God. Our female rabbi speaking on Emanuah in her video, does not seem to understand this role of faith. She uses the term trust. If we trust in God than we allow His powers to empower us. I did not hear her speak in regard to this idea.
The New Testament does NOT support your satan church doctrine
Rob" Well the REV 12 does, I just showed you, it's the same poetry parallel as Ezekiel 28
humans and sin
cherubs and sin
humans in Eden
Cherub in Eden
Poetry parallels, Ezekiel you ignore, so are you also going to ignore Rev 12 parallels as well?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 21, 2022 4:17:39 GMT -5
The Beast of Revelation was never perfect – or God’s friend Rob" that is wrong Dave, easy to prove using only Rev 12 itself. Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven A War means that before the war there was peace. Hence the beast lived at peace with God, and afterwards began to war against God.
So your god wars against his friends
The Beast of revelation appeared in a plurality Rev 12:3 Rob" Reading poetry similes is hard and open to different views You are just trying to deny scripture to defend your satan god
The Beast of Revelation appeared ready to devour and consume Rev 12:4 Rob" Yes. Does this mean the beast was always a consuming power, or became a consuming power? You are just trying to deny scripture to defend your satan god
Re 12:10 .... for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, Notice what Rev 12 calls this beast power, an accuser of humans, not some power tempting humans to sin. Why doesn’t the New Testament say your saatan opposes god Why doesn’t the New Testament support your doctrine
Re 12:13 ... he persecuted the woman ... The devil persecutes humans.... Why doesn’t the New Testament say your satan opposes god Why doesn’t the New Testament support your doctrine
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Why doesn’t the New Testament say your satan opposes god Why doesn’t the New Testament support your doctrine ----------------------------
D"DO YOU BELIEVE YOURSELF OR NOT? Why do you teach contradiction? R" I fail to understand your answer Pretend ignorance - you teach a platform then say you don't understand your own teachng
The only thing that you have PROVEN is that you will bend scripture anyway you want it to go to defend your satan god - such respect for the word of God. All you have to do is change it all into a metaphore and it all means something other that what is says. The other revelation is that you really do not like the New Testament or its teaching - but you say you are a Christian
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2022 12:00:46 GMT -5
D"So your god wars against his friends R" a creature is only a friend of God if that creature never sins Dave.
D"You are just trying to deny scripture to defend your satan god R" No Dave, I am just trying to help you see that sinning angels, is the same as the sinning shedim.
But you make them separate for some weird reason.
D"Why doesn’t the New Testament say your satan opposes god R" It does. How plain do you wish this?
1Jo 3:8 ...the devil sinneth ....
Any creature that sinneth opposes God, by definition.
Sin is breaking relationship with God, thus you the sinner oppose GOD and use SELF as your power, rather than GOD as your power. This is the basic definition of "sin".
Sin is not something you are born with, though inherited epi-genetic propensities do influence your reasoning processes, but sinning is always a relationship term with GOD.
1Jo 3:8 Jesus destroys the works of the devil.
Jesus came to destroy the sinning of the devil.
1Jo 3:10 ..children of the devil: (do NOT) love his brother.
A child of the devil loves sinning, because the devil loves sinning.
1Jo 3:17 ..how dwelleth the love of God in him?
A child of the devil cannot love God, because of the sinning problem, ie pride, the worst sin.
1Jo 5:18 If we are born of God, we sinneth not;
God wants humans to become sinless, which is achievable through faith in Jesus.
1Jo 5:18 The wicked one toucheth him not.
The sinning influences of the devil cannot break your faith in Jesus, if you choose to speak God's words of faith.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Joh 8:43 ..because ye cannot hear my word.
Some of us cannot hear Jesus talking in Scripture...
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, Joh 8:44 The devil was a murderer from the beginning, Joh 8:44 The devil is a liar, no truth in him.
The devil is a sinning sin-agent. We cannot use the devil as an excuse for our own sins, because GOD is stronger than the devils sinning's, hence speaking faithfully God's word empowers you with might stronger than the devil, but you must choose to speak His words. Often we seek self and continue sinning with the Devil's sinning's.
Lu 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
This false elohiym power claims that following God is false and that SELF is a better way to love yourself and respect your fellow man. God wishes to counter this claim, that love from GOD is the only true power there is for living for eternity.
Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Jesus saw the devil in war a long time ago, fall from heaven.
Lu 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Jesus came to loose the bondage of Satan, thus the Devil opposes God, because He enslaves humans with disease in this case.
Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Judas opposes Jesus by sending Him to a cruel torture on a stake, not the voluntary olah offering Jesus wished for. The request was suggested by Satan, the opposer who opposes Jesus. The Devil wanted Jesus to stop His olah offering process, and hope that a cruel death on a cross, 98 lashes for example would stop Jesus going there. The devil was wrong, Jesus went there and died the Devil's way. The Father planned in prophecy to Abram for the Son to lay down His life as an OLAH offering. This is a voluntary sacrifice, how much do we know of the Olah offering?
Ac 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Obviously Ananias was influenced by an opposer opposing God, making greed into a pleasant "sin".
Ro 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. Our mission is to trample on sinning and the sin-agent.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Here we see that the shedim is indeed an angel.
1Th 2:18 ..but Satan hindered us.
The opposes stops Paul's gospel work, thus opposes God saving others.
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The false elohiym power does miracles and signs and wonders, all the time, deceiving the very elect.
1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
If you follow Satan, you are not following God.
Re 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is:
Whole churches follow Satan. and have their powers from Satan.
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The Devil and His angels are on the earth, sinning and helping humans to love more sinning. Such actions oppose God.
D"The only thing that you have PROVEN is that you will bend scripture anyway you want it to go R" Go through all the Scriptures above and tell me how these verses are not evidence of a Devil opposing God?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 22, 2022 3:25:31 GMT -5
D"So your god wars against his friends R" a creature is only a friend of God if that creature never sins Dave. WOW – now you teach that God is NOT man’s friend - wars against man Sounds satanic to me
D"You are just trying to deny scripture to defend your satan god R" No Dave, I am just trying to help you see that sinning angels, is the same as the sinning shedim. YES agreed – the bane elohiym ARE sinning messengers from the Beast
But you make them separate for some weird reason. Angelos = messenger – no more no less God has messengers The Beast has messengers Man has messengers – (Luke 7:18-34) or did John command angels of the Lord Man is a messenger (Mark 1:2. Luke 7:27, Ph 2:25) ---------------------------
D"Why doesn’t the New Testament say your satan opposes god R" It does. How plain do you wish this? 1Jo 3:8 ...the devil sinneth .... Try answering the question I asked you about “A” – you posted “A” as an absolute But you respond with “B”
1Jo 3:8 Jesus destroys the works of the devil. Jesus came to destroy the sinning of the devil. “WORKS OF THE DEVIL” = WORLD
1Jo 3:10 ..children of the devil: (do NOT) love his brother. A child of the devil loves sinning, because the devil loves sinning. WORLD – selfish desire / greed /lust / for WORLD
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desire. Jas 1:15 Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is full grown, it brings forth death.
Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Jesus saw the devil in war a long time ago, fall from heaven. DUH - G4567 - Σατανᾶς – Satanas - Of Chaldee origin - the accuser, that is, the devil: - Satanas.
Lu 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Jesus came to loose the bondage of Satan, thus the Devil opposes God, because He enslaves humans with disease in this case. Jesus comes to loose the bondage of the WORLD
Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Judas opposes Jesus by sending Him to a cruel torture on a stake, And Jesus approves – always part of the Plan – God’s Plan to redeem the Gentiles – John 3:16 --------------------------
The Father planned in prophecy to Abram for the Son to lay down His life as an OLAH offering. This is a voluntary sacrifice, how much do we know of the Olah offering?
Ac 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Obviously Ananias was influenced by an opposer opposing God, making greed into a pleasant "sin". YEP – greed / lust / wealth / selfishness – (yester ra) - WORLD
Ro 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. Our mission is to trample on sinning and the sin-agent. DUH - G4567 - Σατανᾶς – Satanas - Of Chaldee origin - the accuser, that is, the devil: - Satanas. AND TODAY - CHALDEAN SATANAS HAS ISRAEL COMPLETELY SURROUNDED AND OUT NUMBERED
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Here we see that the shedim is indeed an angel. YES AGREE – the shedim / archon are MESSENGERS of the BEAST
G32 - ἄγγελος – aggelos - From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger. MESSENGER – A PASTOR – AN ANGEL OF THE LORD ---------------------------
1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. If you follow Satan, you are not following God. Re 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: Whole churches follow Satan. and have their powers from Satan.
ABSOLUTELY – Rome immediately stamped out Spirit led Pentecostal First Century Messianic Judaism – the original Christianity – and replaced it with your Fallen Angels and dependency upon the church and man. Absolutely – I know this guy that claims allegiance to Ellen White – and he can speak of nothing else
The Apocalypse of Peter "For many will accept our teaching in the beginning. And they will turn from them again by the will of the Father of their error, because they have done what he wanted. And he will reveal them in his judgment, i.e., the servants of the Word. But those who became mingled with these shall become their prisoners, since they are without perception. And the guileless, good, pure one they push to the worker of death, and to the kingdom of those who praise Christ in a restoration. And they praise the men of the propagation of falsehood, those who will come after you. And they will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law."
"For some of them will blaspheme the truth and proclaim evil teaching. And they will say evil things against each other. Some will be named: (those) who stand in (the) strength of the archons, of a man and a naked woman who is manifold and subject to much suffering. …
"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."
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Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The Devil and His angels are on the earth, sinning and helping humans to love more sinning. Such actions oppose God.
The Devil and His angels are on the earth, YES – ABSOLUTELY – the BEAST who we call the devil is the ‘sar’ prince of this WORLD THIS WORLD = the Kingdom of the Archon – their domain
The Devil and His angels are on the earth, sinning WHY DO YOU DENY THE NEW TESTAMENT
2Pe 2:4 For God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into Sheol. He put them in chains of gloomy darkness, to be held until the judgment.
Jud 1:6 And the angels—who did not keep their own position of authority but deserted their proper place—He has kept in everlasting shackles under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great Day.
The Devil and His angels are on the earth, sinning Scripture says the sinning archon (the bane elohiym of Gen 6) are locked away WHY DO YOU DENY THE NEW TESTAMENT -------------------------
D"The only thing that you have PROVEN is that you will bend scripture anyway you want it to go R" Go through all the Scriptures above and tell me how these verses are not evidence of a Devil opposing God?
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
The Beast of Revelation = the serpent race – we call them devils and satanas Scripture says the Beast OPPOSES MAN – deceives man
REPEAT - D"Why doesn’t the New Testament say your satan opposes god R" It does. How plain do you wish this? 1Jo 3:8 ...the devil sinneth .... Try answering the question I asked you about “A” – you posted “A” as an absolute But you respond with “B”
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2022 15:43:51 GMT -5
D"I asked you about “A” – you posted “A” as an absolute But you respond with “B”
R" You know what Dave, one cannot reason with you.
Explain to me why sinning is not an action that opposes GOD directly?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 23, 2022 18:51:59 GMT -5
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