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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2022 14:46:49 GMT -5
Is this how you read a person's post? You did not discuss my discussions not a single time, but completely spoke your view and presented your view the whole time. What you presented was Dave's view, a complete monologue, and never once did you discuss if what I wrote verse by verse was right or wrong.There is no point discussing anything with you, and this post proves this. I note you quote Adam Clarke, and I confirm this Verse 1. If our earthly house of this tabernacle] By earthly house, the apostle most evidently means the body in which the soul is represented as dwelling or sojourning for a time, and from which it is to be liberated at death; for as death dissolves the tabernacle, it can then be no habitation for the soul. The apostle also alludes here to the ancient Jewish tabernacle, which, on all removals of the congregation, was dissolved and taken in pieces; and the ark of the covenant, covered with its own curtains, was carried by itself; and when they came to the place of rest, then the dissolved parts of the tabernacle were put together as before. When we consider this simile in connection with the doctrine of the resurrection, which the apostle has treated so much at large in these epistles, and which he keeps constantly in view, then we shall see that he intends to convey the following meaning: that as the tabernacle was taken down in order to be again put together, so the body is to be dissolved, in order to be re-edified; that as the ark of the covenant subsisted by itself, while the tabernacle was down, so can the soul when separated from the body; that as the ark had then its own veil for its covering, Ex 40:21, so the soul is to have some vehicle in which it shall subsist till it receives its body at the resurrection. So Adam Clarke believes when the soul inside the body is alive, and does a mortal death, the body dies, but the " the soul is to have some vehicle in which it shall subsist till it receives its body at the resurrection", in other words the " soul lives on", this is a popular Christian belief, that the soul is either in heaven or in hell, being purified or condemned, after the loved one depart their bodies. Just because it's a popular myth does not make it true, and just because Clarke says so does not make it true either. It's not taught by Scripture at all. The soul dies is clearly taught in Scripture. Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, Ps 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: Ps 78:50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, Ps 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: Mt 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: I also notice you mocked my thinking this verse refers to humans being the temple of the HS. Also written by Paul 1Co 3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Peter says the same thing 1Pe 2:4 ¶ To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Obviously you have never heard of the lost covering. spiritualsprings.org/ss-1027.htmRead our sermon on the lost covering, it might help you. 2Ki 2:14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over. Here is a man who picked up the lost covering of Jesus, and with it came all the power of Elijah. Why is it we do not believe in the power of the lost covering? Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. What an amazing transformation. The filthy clothes we have is removed by the angels during baptism and we receive a change of raiment, the lost covering that only Jesus the King provides. One point Clarke makes, if you take down the ropes and the curtains, and pull up the pegs, and roll up the tent, The temple disappears, and vanishes. It does not live on. When you place the pegs and ropes and roll out the tent, suddenly the temple reappears again. This is a simile how the word "soul" works when the body parts are assembled and disassembled. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 6, 2022 19:45:34 GMT -5
Dave asks "Explain how you can absent from your body" ? referring to 2Cor 5:8?
Rob studies the whole passage" 2Co 5:1 ¶ For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
POINT – we are studying 2 Cor 5:1
R" Here our earthly body is the temple of the HS, but we also have a temple in Heaven where Jesus lives as out High Priest
R" Here our earthly body is the temple of the HS, If you were a Greek student – you would absolutely get a grade of F Nowhere does this verse indicate that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit ----------------------------
Is this how you read a person's post? You did not discuss my discussions not a single time, but completely spoke your view and presented your view the whole time.
You presented a false statement – everything you said that followed was all based on your false statement I simply pointed out to you that you cannot translate and your word games attempts to rewrite scripture is ERROR
POINT – we are studying 2 Cor 5:1- our earthly body is the temple of the HS, - has NOTHING to do with 2 Cor 5:1 -----------------------------------
What you presented was Dave's view, a complete monologue, and never once did you discuss if what I wrote verse by verse was right or wrong. OH – last month I was too brief
There is no point discussing anything with you, and this post proves this. Present an intelligent discussion – I would love it But all you want to do is play word games so scripture says what you want it to
POINT – we are studying 2 Cor 5:1- Nowhere does this verse indicate that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit
Also written by Paul 1Co 3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? YES – I agree – communion spirit to spirit
Peter says the same thing 1Pe 2: 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
HOW FUNNY – you deny the spirit and the spiritual
What an amazing transformation. The filthy clothes we have is removed by the angels during baptism and we receive a change of raiment, the lost covering that only Jesus the King provides.
Up until now you mocked the erthly clothing vrs heavenly clothing Jewish teaching YES – we change – quicken – not sure what it is – but we will be as He is ------------
I note you quote Adam Clarke, So Adam Clarke believes when the soul inside the body is alive, and does a mortal death, the body dies, but the "the soul is to have some vehicle in which it shall subsist till it receives its body at the resurrection", in other words the "soul lives on", this is a popular Christian belief, that the soul is either in heaven or in hell, being purified or condemned, after the loved one depart their bodies.
Just because it's a popular myth does not make it true, and just because Clarke says so does not make it true either. YES – 5000 year old theology – mainstream in Judaism and all Christianity except you and the SDA
It's not taught by Scripture at all. You mean it is not taught by Ellen White -----------------
The soul dies is clearly taught in Scripture. Ps 33:19 To deliver their soul from death, - Second Dead at the Lake of Fire Ps 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: - Second Dead at the Lake of Fire Ps 78:50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, - Second Dead at the Lake of Fire Ps 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? - Second Dead at the Lake of Fire shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? – YES BY DIVINE PARDON = FIRST FRUITS Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: - YES – poured out / released / set free to preach to the souls in hades Mt 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: - YES - Second Dead at the Lake of Fire – repentance = realizing you do not deserve to be saved ---------------
I also notice you mocked my thinking this verse refers to humans being the temple of the HS. Everyone agrees that our body it the Temple of the Holy Spirit in communion – Spirit to spirit – DUH
What you present is a false correlation
Jews live in Israel therefore everyone who lives in Israel is Jewish Everyone with COVID coughs therefore everyone who coughs has COVID These are false correlations
1Co 3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God – so you conclude that the word temple = Temple of God Now you go back to 2 Cor 5:1 and insert your word game
2Co 5:1 ¶ For we know that if our earthly house of this (tabernacle of the Lord) were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
G3614 - οἰκία - properly residence (abstractly), but usually (concretely) an abode (literally or figuratively); by implication a family (especially domestics): - home, house
R" Here our earthly body is the temple of the HS, If you were a Greek student – you would absolutely get a grade of F Nowhere does this verse indicate that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit
2Co 5:1 (TLV) For we know that if the tent, our earthly home, is torn down, NIV - For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed NLT - For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down ESV - For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed
Our body is our home here on earth – the body is a vehicle for the our spirit A tent – residence – house – home - is the place you reside Once this tent is destroyed – our spirit/soul has another home / residence in heaven
YOUR attempt to use a word game rewrite scripture is REJECTED No other translator agree with your presentation ----------------
What you present is a false correlation - Rauwch
Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water. So you conclude that ruawch always mean Spirit of God
Man’s spirit – to you = the Holy Spirit – all men are just small fragments of the Holy Spirit But angelic spirits - you never answer if they are also God in disguise – or a small fraction of God But evil spirits – you never answer if they are also God in disguise – or a small fractions of God
You use your word games to rewrite scripture and present a false correlation I am more than willing to discuss scripture – but no one is interested in your word games that only mock the word of God
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2022 5:09:23 GMT -5
I shall quote Uriah Smith, while not inspired he is a good writer at times and follows my view, the SDA view, that there is no "spirit living" outside of it's body.
q. 2 Corinthians 5:8. “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” This is the only real expression in this chapter from which an argument for the conscious state can be drawn. But we hold it to be wrong to take an isolated expression, and build upon it a great doctrine, without taking into consideration the general tenor of the context with which it stands connected. And what is the intent of Paul’s discourse here? He is contrasting the temporal and eternal states. See previous chapter, verses 17, 18. “The things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.” “Our earthly house of this tabernacle,” and the “building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens,” of the first verse of chap. 5, bring to view the same things. “For in this [in this state] we groan earnestly,” says he, “desiring to be clothed upon with our house from Heaven.” And this being clothed upon is explained in verse 4, to be the swallowing up of mortality in life. The same scene is brought to view in Romans 8:22, 23: “For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves [almost the same expression], waiting for the adoption, to wit., the redemption of our body.” Such are the scenes brought to view in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10; but when they take place, or when it is that mortality is to be swallowed up of life, we are not there informed. Paul elsewhere, however, tells us [see chapter 15 of his first epistle to these same Corinthians]: “For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” Verse 53. When? “At the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” Verse 52. Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory” [or mortality is swallowed up of life]. Verse 54.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 7, 2022 9:32:37 GMT -5
Uriah Smith, while not inspired he … follows my view, the SDA view, that there is no "spirit living" outside of it's body.
Uriah Smith is 100% SDA and famous for it
q. 2 Corinthians 5:8. “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” This is the only real expression in this chapter from which an argument for the conscious state can be drawn. But we hold it to be wrong to take an isolated expression, and build upon it a great doctrine, without taking into consideration the general tenor of the context with which it stands connected.
The depth of your hypocrisy is astounding For 3 years you have been repeating cherub chata from Ezk 28 as the foundation of your religion
This is why precept upon precept, line upon line is the only way to study scripture – scripture does not contradict itself as to teaching and scripture validates itself
And what is the intent of Paul’s discourse here? He is contrasting the temporal and eternal states. ABSOLUTE AGREE
temporal relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs; secular. "the Church did not imitate the secular rulers who thought only of temporal gain" Similar: , Secular, nonspiritual, worldly, profane, material, mundane
eternal lasting or existing forever;
“For in this [in this state] we groan earnestly,” YES – we are to worship in spirit
Paul elsewhere, however, tells us [see chapter 15 of his first epistle to these same Corinthians]: “For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” YES – we will be changed – quickened – not sure what it will be – but we will be like Him
Verse 53. When? “At the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” We shall be changed
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2022 14:08:53 GMT -5
Greetings Dave:
The biggest proof AGAINST that the "spirit is not awake and feels a purification process outside of its body, during hell" is in a parable Jesus spoke, speaking against the Hellenized Jews of his day with their popular belief.
Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments,
Jesus tells the story that the "soul lives as a spirit in hell".
Lu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
Here Jesus tells that a "Great Gulf is fixed" that none can pass from one to the other.
From my Hebrew English translator
" In this parable Christ was meeting the people on their own ground. The doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ's words. The Saviour knew of their ideas, and He framed His parable so as to inculcate important truths through these preconceived opinions. He held up before His hearers a mirror wherein they might see themselves in their true relation to God. He used the prevailing opinion to convey the idea He wished to make prominent to all—that no man is valued for his possessions; for all he has belongs to him only as lent by the Lord. A misuse of these gifts will place him below the poorest and most afflicted man who loves God and trusts in Him. "
Another rebuke to your theory is the valley of dry bones
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live;
In this case we have the assembly of the components for living, body + Ruwach makes living soul.
The eternal spirit belonging to each man, does not come back to its allotted body, but instead the HS as the medium for the breath of life, flows into the body, and the body becomes a living soul.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 8, 2022 3:12:24 GMT -5
Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, Jesus tells the story that the "soul lives as a spirit in hell".YES ABSOLUTELY JESUS VALIDATES THAT LIFE LIVESLu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:YES JESUS TEACHES DIFFERENT LOCALITIES IN THE AFTERLIFEHere Jesus tells that a "Great Gulf is fixed" that none can pass from one to the other.AGREE – wherever you end up is up to you – but wherever God places you – there you areEcc 8:5 Whoever obeys his command will not experience harm, and a wise person’s heart discerns the proper time and procedure. Ecc 8:6 For there is a proper time and procedure for every matter, though a person’s trouble is heavy upon him. Ecc 8:7 Since no one knows what will be, who can tell when it will happen? Ecc 8:8 No one has authority over the wind to restrain it, nor authority over the day of death. As no one is discharged during a battle, so wickedness cannot rescue its master. Ecc 8:9 I have seen all this while applying my mind to everything done under the sun: sometimes one person dominates another person to his own harm. From my Hebrew English translator In this parable Christ was meeting the people on their own ground. The doctrine of a conscious state of existence between death and the resurrection was held by many of those who were listening to Christ's words. YES – CONTEXT of Jesus Christ – it is ythe only Context that matters------------------------ Another rebuke to your theory is the valley of dry bones Eze 37:4-6 - In this case we have the assembly of the components for living, body + Ruwach makes living soul. The eternal spirit belonging to each man, does not come back to its allotted body, but instead the HS as the medium for the breath of life, flows into the body, and the body becomes a living soul.Enough with your pagan teaching – the idea that man has no spirit of his own – but rather we are just animals driven around by the HS is pantheism – each time a new baby is born – God give a piece of Himself to explore the world – and in the end – all the pieces of God are reunited in heaven www.learnreligions.com/what-is-pantheism-700690Pantheism (pronounced PAN thee izm) is the belief that God consists of everyone and everything. For example, a tree is God, a mountain is God, the universe is God, all people are God. Pantheism is found in many "nature" religions and New Age religions. The belief is held by most Hindus and many Buddhists. It is also the worldview of Unity, Christian Science, and Scientology. YES – very Hindu YES – very Dianetics - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Dianetics Dianetics is a set of pseudoscientific ideas and practices regarding the metaphysical relationship between the mind and body created by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard → Christian Science, and Scientology → Tom CruiseWhy Christianity Refutes PantheismA fundamental teaching of absolute pantheism is that humans must master their ignorance and recognize that they are God. Christianity teaches that God alone is the Highest God: I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me. (Isaiah 45:5. ESV) Each and every cow is a unique independent individual Each and every angel is a unique independent individual Each and every archon is a unique independent individual Each and every MAN is a unique independent individual
Each man is judged uniquely – independently – individually
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2022 15:10:45 GMT -5
There are some aspects of your post I would like more discussion from you please.
D" Why Christianity Refutes Pantheism A fundamental teaching of absolute pantheism is that humans must master their ignorance and recognize that they are God"
R" Pardon my lack of reading your words, but you are saying I support pantheism and thus I support the idea that each person is a god, because the HS is driving each human to be human as a god?
So you are saying no human is a god, and that GOD gave us each a piece of God Himself as an individual independent quantum spark, the eternal spirit, that makes each human unique and function as their own human identity?
Questions for you:
1) Where and how did this quantum spark called the eternal spirit come from and where are you Bible texts for this creative affect, or are these spirits not created at all?
2) The eternal spirit cannot be created of GOD because than it would of matter origin, and since it can be removed by GOD at a will during the Lake of Fire, then the 'eternal spirit" is not "Eternal" is it, but conditional given to each human? Where does the "spirit" come from?
3) And if GOD is able to pull a piece of Himself as Himself, as your expression idea claims, than your Father has a trillion "god like eternal sparks" within Himself, He gives one to each human to be a human spirit, you have introduced a mystic pantheistic Father who is multiple spirits in nature?
For you information:
I do not support Pantheism at all. Explaining the presence of the Father's Zero point energy at a fundamental level is not saying everything is the Father. Otherwise all things are made of sunlight, therefore the rocks and the trees are bits of the Sun. Makes no sense. If the Father was the tree and the rock, why doesn't the tree speak and walk as the Father? You are twisting concepts and bending peoples minds. I was taught GOD functions like light, and thus Energy is a personification of the Great Most High. Some things are mysteries best left alone.
Regarding the existence the soul, as a concept. Is this not the same as the coming into existence the tabernacle? Or the home? A home is not eternal as a concept, it is merely a house made from matter, and it is the family living in the house that makes it a home. When the sinew and muscles and body is assembled, and the presence of the HS enters this body, and allows the Father's presence to empower the body, the body becomes a living soul.
The word nephesh comes in two actions, the verb and the noun.
The verb means "energize" and the noun means "living energy".
Since "energy" is a concept from GOD alone, it makes sense when the presence of GOD comes into the body, the body is energized until it becomes "living energy", hence the word "soul". I see the word soul exists only in relationship to GOD.
Does this make each human unique and independent to develop our own characters of love? Absolutely it does.
I have written this all before, but do you read my posts?
Pr 16:9 ¶ A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
We respond to the partnership daily by choosing the pathway of many decisions. There are over 7000 faith requests available to us to pray, and each is unique as a response to our path, hence the Lord empowers your request, but each person is free to develop their own love response, as GOD does our providing, we humans do our responding. Thus we develop unique personalities of loving, different from other humans.
The Hebrew word for this "spirit" development is called the "nashamah", it is also not eternal, but exists within man, as long as the Divine Partner exists within us.
Now you have agreed with me that GOD at a subatomic level exists within us, so why the need for this eternal spirit idea? You have come to support a Hellenized myth, common in Jesus day, and Jesus told the parable to win over some of those trapped in their errors.
D"Each man is judged uniquely – independently – individually
R" Yes indeed, the only thing that is taken into heaven, humans develop is our character, the way we respond daily to the providing love of GOD. Everything else in our humanity is renewed and restored, but our character is not.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 9, 2022 2:15:14 GMT -5
D" Why Christianity Refutes Pantheism A fundamental teaching of absolute pantheism is that humans must master their ignorance and recognize that they are God"
R" Pardon my lack of reading your words, but you are saying I support pantheism Again and again – You teach - man have no spirit of his own You teach – the only spirit inside of man = the HS – which is the Spirit of God You teach – the only spirit inside of man = God
and thus I support the idea that each person is a god, because the HS is driving each human to be human as a god? Correct – you teach man has no spirit of his own – the only spirit inside of man = HS/God
So you are saying no human is a god, ABSOLUTELY NOT - man is not the Creator – the One True God - DUH
and that GOD gave us each a piece of God Himself as an individual independent quantum spark, the eternal spirit, that makes each human unique and function as their own human identity? This is your teaching that all men are just the HS/God
My teaching Each and every angel was CREATED unique – independent – individual Each and every angel was CREATED – for a purpose – to serve and praise
Each and every ARCHON was CREATED unique – independent – individual Each and every ARCHON was CREATED – for a purpose – to devour / consume (Entropy) Each and every MAN was CREATED unique – independent – individual Each and every MAN was CREATED – for a purpose – we are the creature that can choose Each and every MAN was CREATED – for a purpose – Jer 1:5
All of this was created by God for God on Day 1 = the host of heaven
Questions for you: 1) Where and how did this quantum spark called the eternal spirit come from and where are you Bible texts for this creative affect, or are these spirits not created at all? DUH – why do you make it so complicated? Created by God for God
2) The eternal spirit cannot be created of GOD because than it would of matter origin, ABSOLUTE ROBERT NONSENSE Stop thinking of God as something small and limited Omnipotence has no limits
3) And if GOD is able to pull a piece of Himself as Himself, as your expression idea claims Misrepresent away Robert – twist and misrepresent You are the one that teaches man has no spirit of his own – we are all just the HS/God
For you information: I do not support Pantheism at all. Explaining the presence of the Father's Zero point energy at a fundamental level is not saying everything is the Father. YES – the Holy Spirit is the base matrix / ether / medium that the ALL is built upon AT THE SUB-ATOMIC LEVEL
Otherwise all things are made of sunlight, therefore the rocks and the trees are bits of the Sun. Cool
2nd Book of Enoch 29:1 AND for all the heavenly troops I imaged the image and essence of fire, and my eye looked at the very hard, firm rock, and from the gleam of my eye the lightning received its wonderful nature, which is both fire in water and water in fire, and one does not put out the other, nor does the one dry up the other, therefore the lightning is brighter than the sun, softer than water and firmer than hard rock.
2 And from the rock I cut off a great fire, and from the fire I created the orders of the incorporeal ten troops of angels, and their weapons are fiery and their raiment a burning flame, and I commanded that each one should stand in his order.
Makes no sense. If the Father was the tree and the rock, why doesn't the tree speak and walk as the Father? You are twisting concepts and bending peoples minds. You deliberately mix the corporeal sub-atomic with the ethereal – just to be confused
I was taught GOD functions like light, and thus Energy is a personification of the Great Most High. Some things are mysteries best left alone.
God is the source = light is either a nothing wave – or a something particle God is the source – The Holy Spirit = the spirit of God at a distance – Christ = the image of God
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2022 15:16:09 GMT -5
There is one question from your post , your didn't answer.
Happy Sabbath Dave.
RP" 1) Where and how did this quantum spark called the eternal spirit come from and where are you Bible texts for this creative affect, or are these spirits not created at all?
D" DUH – why do you make it so complicated? Created by God for God
Dave a "eternal spirit, quantum spark" cannot be created, because all created things are created from matter, and your eternal spirit theory cannot be from matter? Am I correct? You just goofed?
And you do not show the verse from the origin of these "eternal spirits"
Some verses use other words apart from "bara" to show things "poured out" or "called forth" as a simile of how a baby is "called forth" from the womb...
Here"
Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
To me, this refers to the medium called forth, as GOD the Father required this function since sinning had began long before earth's Creation. Thus the "wisdom" imbedded in this function was "called forth" to deal with sinning, from the cherub that sinned.
So from your "eternal spirits" idea, I would have to see Hebrew words similar to these at least, without using "bara", as all "bara" words refer to "matter" and thus are not "eternal". This is the line upon line idea, for "pouring forth" some eternal spirit?
SO show me a verse of your idea? As I am aware, none exists?
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 10, 2022 8:28:11 GMT -5
There is one question from your post , your didn't answer. RP" 1) Where and how did this quantum spark called the eternal spirit come from and where are you Bible texts for this creative affect, or are these spirits not created at all? D" DUH – why do you make it so complicated? Created by God for God
Dave a "eternal spirit, quantum spark" cannot be created, because all created things are created from matter, and your eternal spirit theory cannot be from matter? Am I correct? You just goofed?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Why can’t your god create the heavens and all the unseen – non-physical dimensions of space and time? If your god did not created the heavens – which one of your gods did?
And you do not show the verse from the origin of these "eternal spirits" Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2022 16:18:01 GMT -5
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
That verse is simply saying God created all the things necessary for living to develop and grow in a physical world.
Explain to me why you see the word "host" as referring to trillions of end-products of living, when creating one couple could easily allow the develop of every human that ever lived.
Adam called his wife the mother of all living.... that this label is not true under your view, since every spirit has already been living, does not have to enter the womb of Eve at all?
Nor does the humans have to enter the womb of the HS the first time either, since GOD fashioned all humans before they entered the womb.... of either the HS or of the Eve. How silly are your absurd notions based on a word "host".
DO you have any other proof?
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jews only saw the borning process through the Eve's womb.
They did not see your silly notion of an eternal spirit coming into a material body later on.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Now Jesus speaks of the Spirit born under the womb of the HS, this is also not of your view, because your eternal spirit does not need to be born of the womb of the HS, your eternal spirit is already alive and living according to you?
So here I have already completed destroyed your absurd notions with Bible verses, and you supply me without a single verse, only the word "host".
How is this "spirit" born under the womb of the HS, Dave?
David answers this second birth...
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
It's a creative process, from the HS womb.
But this negates your eternal spirit coming down from who knows where into a material body, does not involved the womb of the HS, you have all these spirits already since day 1 of creation.
Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus to be born a second time, NOW in the present time. NOT from day 1, thousands of years before....
Create in me a right spirit, refers to PRESENT time, not thousands of years ago.
So your "eternal spirit" thing is absurd.
Now I ask you for Bible proof and you supply me with one verse based on one word.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Sept 11, 2022 7:27:29 GMT -5
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Explain to me why you see the word "host" as referring to trillions of end-products of living The Bride of Christ = the host of heaven The army of the Lord = the host of heaven
Adam called his wife the mother of all living.... that this label is not true under your view, since every spirit has already been living, does not have to enter the womb of Eve at all? So you teach that Eve was the mother of all the angels? So an angel fell – deceived Eve – then Eve gave birth to the angels WHAT ROBERT NONESENSE!
Nor does the humans have to enter the womb of the HS the first time either, since GOD fashioned all humans before they entered the womb.... of either the HS or of the Eve. How silly are your absurd notions based on a word "host". You just deny the Baptism of the Holy Spirit – because you deny the spirit
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
YES and Jesus answered Joh 3:9 How can these things happen?” Nicodemus said. Joh 3:10 Yeshua answered him, “You’re a teacher of Israel and you do not understand these things? -----------------------
Now Jesus speaks of the Spirit born under the womb of the HS, this is also not of your view, because your eternal spirit does not need to be born of the womb of the HS, your eternal spirit is already alive and living according to you? What nonsense is this?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him. Col 1:17 He exists before everything, and in Him all holds together.
1- Christ = the image of God 2- Christ is the CREATOR (GOD) – and all thing were created by Christ The unseen – and the seen – angels, archon, and man
How is this "spirit" born under the womb of the HS, Dave? God said and it appeared - DUH
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
It's a creative process, from the HS womb.
But this negates your eternal spirit coming down from who knows where into a material body, does not involved the womb of the HS, you have all these spirits already since day 1 of creation.
You just deny the Baptism of the Holy Spirit – you do not need or yearn for it, because you claim already to be the Holy Spirit
Man is a spirit having a physical souljourn When the Holy Spirit touches you heart – you are Born Again – refreshed – reminded of the truth The comforter will come inside you and commune with you Spirit to spirit – Holy Spirit to your spirit It is a life changing event It is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit It will allow the Spirit of God to flow through you to another = healing / the laying on of hands It will allow the Spirit of God to flow through you to another = speaking in tongues
Create in me a right spirit, refers to PRESENT time, not thousands of years ago. YES NOW – present tense – beg for it – knock on that door – pray for it
So your "eternal spirit" thing is absurd. One of us only teach the world – biology – grave – then more biology
1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruptibility , and this mortal must put on immortality. 1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible will have put on incorruptibility and this mortal will have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1Co 15:55 “Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?”
DEATH HAS NO STING – because – LIFE LIVES
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2022 14:02:24 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
So if you have an eternal spirit spoken into existence by God from day 1, that enters the body of humanity prepared for it, as that body comes into being for it to enter, why is there any need for communion with the Holy Spirit upon baptism, when that eternal spirit can freely commune to God already?
Are you saying the eternal spirit loses it's communion with GOD once it enters it's prescribed human body? Do you have any Scripture for this idea?
why should the yester tov function be lost, it's fully alive allowing free will choice over the yester ra and the yester tov, so the spirit should be fully capable of choosing yester tov all the time, why than do humans fail and choose yester ra instead? Why is there a need for the baptism of the HS at all, if the yester tov is fully functional before the baptism? Please explain Dave?
D"You just deny the Baptism of the Holy Spirit – you do not need or yearn for it, because you claim already to be the Holy Spirit
R" The presence of the HS functioning as a medium, allows the Father's breath of life to empower the body with living. It does not come from the Holy Spirit at all, so once again you fail to understand anything about my view, nor do you understand what a medium is or how a medium functions.
D"When the Holy Spirit touches you heart – you are Born Again – refreshed – reminded of the truth
R" That is your view, not my view. The Holy Spirit, meaning the Shadday speaks to human via their conscience yes, and convicts them of sin, and points them to the Father and or the Son for redemption. D"The comforter will come inside you and commune with you Spirit to spirit – Holy Spirit to your spirit
R" That is your view. What you are saying is the Father's expression comes into you and communes with you, the Father to the Father-spark, the Father gave to you.
I ask how is it possible for the Father to make a medium out of the Father, allowing the Father expression to enter the Father medium and commune to a sinning human without destroying the human with the Father's presence? To me this is entirely impossible.
The comforter functions as a medium, is already present within you, allowing humans to remain living. When the human seeks salvation, this medium allows the flow of Jesus to be carried personally into you, while Jesus is our High Priest in heaven, clad in humanity, the Holy Spirit functions as "another comforter" because this time the "breathing of salvation" flows via the medium into the sinner declared straight, and living by faith in Jesus.
D"It is a life changing event
R" It is a life changing event and a life changing process. Jesus is both a presence and a present. He comes as both a seed and a seedling of power that grows daily in you.
D"It is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
R" The redemption process is done by baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Salvation is a community process of the Godhead powers of Elohiym.
You are implying the baptism is just of the HS by the HS to commune with you.
D"It will allow the Spirit of God to flow through you to another = healing / the laying on of hands It will allow the Spirit of God to flow through you to another = speaking in tongues
R" Have you tried this? Healing people publicly by touching them, or anointing with oil? Or speaking to a Muslim, asking GOD to translate your words into a language the Muslim will understand?
D"1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruptibility , and this mortal must put on immortality.
R" You post verses that you cannot use even in your view?
If the "eternal spirit" already lives, why must the dead be raised up? It is already raised up?
Why must the spirit enter the dead body again, and be raised up in a raised body, if the spirit lives? Why does it need the dead body again? I thought it gets a spirit body?
And if the eternal spirit is already living and thus has immortality, why must it again put on immortality?
Why do you post verses that mean nothing to me trying to understand your view, when you never discuss your view?
D"The comforter will come inside you and commune with you Spirit to spirit – Holy Spirit to your spirit R" So you don't have Jesus coming inside you to commune with you, Jesus to your spirit? You have the HS coming inside of you and the HS communing to the eternal spirit inside of you? Is this correct?
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D"So you teach that Eve was the mother of all the angels? So an angel fell – deceived Eve – then Eve gave birth to the angels WHAT ROBERT NONESENSE! R" Dave and his twisting weird brevity and mocking.
Adam called his wife the mother of all living for humans only, DUH.
Must I speak it out all the details in case Dave got off on a tangent?
Cherubs are a different kind, DUH, and cannot be procreated by humans, nor can cherubs have sex with humans, not possible. Your idea of procreating demi gods, archon with humans is impossible.
I suppose in your view such possession of the biological body is possible, after all the spirit (not of biology) possessing and evades the biological body and possesses it. Such a process could be achieved by another spirit. But than again your archons are biological are they not, or spirits? So Dave does not have humans at all, more like a spirit possessing a biological body, which we term as human? More mystical stuff. So I suppose since the eternal spirit, called forth from Day 1, these spirits did not come from Eve's womb, did they Dave?
Therefore, humanity is not something biological at all, a human is a spirit being, and is not formed under a womb of Eve at all?
All Eve does is make a biological fetus for the spirit being to enter the body, from the womb of biology. So the spirit comes down from heaven to enter the body inside the womb of the human forming the human baby.
Is this correct?
Where is the need for the HS in this second birth?
I do not see the need for fetal development or for a womb of function at all, for the HS can simply come down from heaven upon baptism and enter the body with spirit, so commune with the spirit? But don't you have GOD already inside the body at a subatomic level? SO now you have GOD again coming down at baptism? And the eternal spirit is already a GOD-spark, so you have three forms of GOD with the human, upon it's baptism under GOD? Is all this really necessary? It's Dave's view?
So I do not see a need for growing here, no need for redevelopment, no need for daily growth in GOD? No need for a womb, since a womb requires development over many months, this communion process of yours can take seconds and thus is all over, you have your gnosis with the HS, so why the need for a second borning process?
Something is wrong with your theory Dave.
Try to explain with a detail discussion Dave.
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Post by Dave on Sept 12, 2022 5:27:02 GMT -5
Are you saying the eternal spirit loses it's communion with GOD once it enters it's prescribed human body? God is with us in the womb and after we are born But once man begins to express (yester ra) – that communion is broken
why should the yester tov function be lost, Not lost – your conscious is still with you
it's fully alive allowing free will choice over the yester ra and the yester tov, so the spirit should be fully capable of choosing yester tov all the time, why than do humans fail and choose yester ra instead? Because man is an animal and WORLD is tangible
Why is there a need for the baptism of the HS at all, if the yester tov is fully functional before the baptism? Elisha’s servant – believer – but unable to spiritually discern Elisha – could spiritually discern The difference is night and day Which type of relationship with the Father do you desire?
D"You just deny the Baptism of the Holy Spirit – you do not need or yearn for it, because you claim already to be the Holy Spirit R" The presence of the HS functioning as a medium, allows the Father's breath of life to empower the body with living. It does not come from the Holy Spirit at all, so once again you fail to understand anything about my view, nor do you understand what a medium is or how a medium functions.
YES – the Holy Spirit is the base matrix / ether / medium that the ALL is built upon But – we are discussing the soul – the spirit – and the spiritual
R" That is your view, not my view. The Holy Spirit, meaning the Shadday speaks to human via their conscience yes, and convicts them of sin, and points them to the Father and or the Son for redemption. YES – deep inside – (yester tov) we know right from wrong YES – The Holy Spirit – reminds us of our guilty conscious
D"The comforter will come inside you and commune with you Spirit to spirit – Holy Spirit to your spirit R" That is your view.
NOT my view – but New Testament Scripture – the Red Letter words of Jesus Christ Joh 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. Joh 14:16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper so He may be with you forever— Joh 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him. You know Him, because He abides with you and will be in you. Joh 14:18 I will not abandon you as orphans; I will come to you. Joh 14:19 In a little while, the world will no longer behold Me, but you will behold Me. Because I live, you also will live! Joh 14:20 “In that day, you will know that I am in My Father, you are in Me, and I am in you.
Joh 14:25 These things I have spoken to you while dwelling with you. Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Ruach ha-Kodesh whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you everything and remind you of everything that I said to you.
Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away! For if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Joh 15:26 “When the Helper comes—whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—He will testify about Me. Joh 15:27 And you also testify, because you have been with Me from the beginning.”
Jesus is not talking about something every man has always experienced Jesus is talking about an experience that is promised to believers / disciples the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father He will testify about Me.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (He), and the Word (He) was with God, and the Word was God (He). He is God – His Spirit is God – His image is God
What you are saying is the Father's expression comes into you and communes with you, I am NOT saying it – the New Testament Gospel is saying it – Jesus Christ is saying it Why do you deny the New Testament?
I ask how is it possible for the Father to make a medium out of the Father, and the Word (He) was with God God at distance Remember – the Shekinah (Holy Spirit) is the Female aspect of God that comes among the congregation – to tend the children
allowing the Father expression to enter the Father medium and commune to a sinning human without destroying the human with the Father's presence? To me this is entirely impossible. The promise was NOT made to the sinners The promise was made to the believers
The comforter functions as a medium, is already present within you, Then why did Jesus Christ promise us MORE?
Why did Jesus Christ tell His decuples to wait for the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Act 1:4 Now while staying with them, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father promised—which, He said, “you heard from Me. Act 1:5 For John immersed with water, but you will be immersed in the Ruach ha-Kodesh not many days from now.”
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Act 19:1 … Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
THE REAL QUESTION IS – WHY DO YOU DENY THE NEW TESTAMENT?
D"It is a life changing event R" It is a life changing event and a life changing process. Jesus is both a presence and a present. He comes as both a seed and a seedling of power that grows daily in you. Paul denied Jesus Christ – BOOM – taken into heaven in or out of the body Rom 12 Paul returned from that experience to write 85% of the New Testament
Some scholars says – there could have been as many as 250 different languages spoken on the DAY OF PENTECOST – The crowd gathered were Jews – BOOM – they all left as Pentecostal Messianic Jews ------------------------------
D"It will allow the Spirit of God to flow through you to another = healing / the laying on of hands It will allow the Spirit of God to flow through you to another = speaking in tongues R" Have you tried this? Healing people publicly by touching them, Sure – haven’t you? Men have prayed over me with their hands upon me I have prayed with others with my hands upon them I have been in a hospital room with everyone’s hands upon the patient
I have been in a circle huddle – all holding hands in a circle – group hug - with an ER Dr leading a prayer waiting for the trauma to arrive
or anointing with oil? Dispensation – I was in the thick of it from 1992-2018 As a New Testament Pentecostal Christian – who denies the addition of Roman Fallen Angels anointing with oil – become more of a spiritual anointing
While I was stationed at the Indian Reservation – I was able to speak to many spirit believers – and to the Catholic priest that ran the religious services department of “Indiana Affairs” – He had performed exorcisms – I actually know one “patient” of his and mine – over time I met the family – THEY ALL BELIEVE IN A HEALING – patient medical history = long term chronic patient that stopped complaining
I “INTERVIEWED” all of them – long discussions with Father (CRS) – religious discussions, I was already published
SOMETHING POSITIVE HAPPENED – some might call it a Christian miracle
To the Priest I asked – was it an exorcism of a demon / evil spirit – or NOT He said – healing always comes from God from within Then he says – who was healed? Mary – or Mary’s hypochondriac mother and aunts who run the ladies circle – and the family that made Mary crazy – or was it the community
To the Priest I asked – was it an exorcism of a demon / evil spirit – or NOT He answered – he played his role – If he says YES – he would only validate the evil spirits to the community If he says NO – then he becomes a denier whatever happened was from God
28 years of hospital life – people pray and people get better – was it the prayer?
Or speaking to a Muslim, asking GOD to translate your words into a language the Muslim will understand? Not my personal gift – but YES – I do feel blessed - I have felt the spirit in my life ----------------------
D"1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruptibility , and this mortal must put on immortality. YEP – just not 3D biology like you and I – CHANGED / DIFFERENT / LIKE HIM
R" You post verses that you cannot use even in your view? If the "eternal spirit" already lives, why must the dead be raised up? It is already raised up?
It is already raised up – IF you have received the Divine Pardon ad become the First Fruits serving around the throne of God – Rev 20:4
why must the dead be raised up – Released from Proportional Punishment – The First Resurrection – Rev 20:5
BUT / HOWEVER / ALTHOUGH – we also know some remain in Proportional Punishment right up until the end – Rev 20:13
Why must the spirit enter the dead body again, Not 3D biology like you and I – CHANGED / DIFFERENT / LIKE HIM
And if the eternal spirit is already living and thus has immortality, why must it again put on immortality? Mortal = biology – no biology in heaven – immortal = NOT MORTAL = NOT biology = SPIRITUAL -----------------
D"The comforter will come inside you and commune with you Spirit to spirit – Holy Spirit to your spirit R" So you don't have Jesus coming inside you NO – Jesus is/was 3D biology – Jesus is not a parasite like a bug, worm, bacteria, virus
You have the HS coming inside of you (HS = Spirit of God = Christ - COMFORTER) and the HS (Spirit of God – Christ - COMFORTER) communing to the eternal spirit (the real you – the inner man – the soul) inside of you? Is this correct? – ABSOLUTELY
NOW – let’s talk about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit THE REAL QUESTION IS – WHY DO YOU DENY THE NEW TESTAMENT?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2022 15:06:23 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
"D" I do feel blessed - I have felt the spirit in my life
R" That is indeed wonderful news, and I shall not take away the joy you feel in God.
D"NOW – let’s talk about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
R" OK, I remember my baptism way back in 1980, clear to this day. A wonderful experience of complete peace for a full day.
So what do you wish to write about ?
D"THE REAL QUESTION IS – WHY DO YOU DENY THE NEW TESTAMENT?
R" I don't. In the days of John the baptist, many were baptised before Jesus had died for their sins,, and later after the resurrection, many were baptised after Jesus went to heaven, fully empowered.
So there were different phases of Jesus power promised to those receiving baptism. Now anybody baptized receives Jesus fully. Ask anything in my Name Jesus says, and Jesus will do it.
SHalom
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