Post by Dave on Sept 1, 2022 11:51:35 GMT -5
R"Sure – the whole passage is about a man – King of Tyre
R" OK how do you recognize similes or poetry pictures in Ezekiel 28 Dave?
D"None of them rewrite the base text away from the King of Tyre
R" DIdn't say a SIMILE does that,
D"This is about man – every Jewish commentary talks of man’s SIN – Eve’s SIN
R" Yes that is ONE SIMILE picture, agreed
Correction – it is scripture
-------------------
JOURNAL ARTICLE
Questions about Eve's Iniquity, Beauty, and Fall: The "Primal Figure" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and "Genesis Rabbah" Traditions of Eve
Journal of Biblical Literature
Vol. 124, No. 4 (Winter, 2005), pp. 641-655 (15 pages)
Published By: The Society of Biblical Literature
-------------------------------------
weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/is-the-prince-of-tyre-satan/
Is the “Prince of Tyre” Satan?
By Dr. Nicholas J. Schaser -February 26, 20206797 46
Alongside Isaiah 14:12-15, a common locus for insight into Satan’s supposed backstory is Ezekiel 28:12-19. Traditionally, post-biblical readers have understood Ezekiel 28 to refer to Satan’s heavenly rebellion against God. Yet, while Ezekiel laments over someone whose wealth and sin are an affront to the Almighty, the prophet does not describe the devil. Instead, Ezekiel 28 refers to the king of Tyre, and “Satan” appears nowhere in the passage. Thus, if we ground our theological understanding on Scripture alone, then we have no reason to posit an angelic prehistory for Satan based on Ezekiel.
In Ezekiel 28, God addresses an individual, saying, “You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and of perfect beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God… You were an anointed guardian cherub” (28:12-14). Despite his high standing, the addressee exhibited “unrighteousness” (עול; evel) and “sinned” (חטא; hata); therefore, God says, “I banished you, guardian cherub…. Your heart was proud because of your beauty… [so] I cast you to the ground” (28:15-17). Many read this passage as a reference to the serpent “in Eden”—which tradition equates with Satan—and then link the satanic snake with an expelled angel. However, immediately before the above verses, God tells Ezekiel to “raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre (מלך צור; melekh tsor)” (28:12). The prophet addresses an earthly king, not a primordial rebel in heaven.
Those who see the figure of Ezekiel 28 as Satan might respond, “But when was the king of Tyre ever ‘in Eden, the garden God’? Doesn’t this show that the prophet is speaking about a spiritual being who rebelled in the primordial past?” Ezekiel’s mention of Eden does not denote a reference to Satan, since the prophet also associates other earthly kings with Eden later in the book. Soon after speaking of Tyre’s king being “in Eden” (בעדן; b’eden), Ezekiel asks the king of Egypt, “‘Whom are you like in glory and greatness among the trees of Eden? You shall be brought down with the trees of Eden… with those slain by the sword.’ This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord God” (Ezekiel 31:18). Of course, Pharaoh was never literally among the trees of Eden, nor were Eden’s trees cut down. Ezekiel places foreign kings “in Eden” metaphorically to ridicule their self-perceived glory; comparing these monarchs with entities in Eden is prophetic hyperbole that highlights the inadequacy of earthly rulers before God.
There are other linguistic and thematic problems with reading Ezekiel 28 as a story about Satan. For instance, the prophecy about Tyre begins at chapter 26, in which Ezekiel tells the people of Tyre that the Babylonians “will plunder your riches and loot your merchandise (רכלה; rekhullah)” (Ezek 26:12). Then, chapter 27 details all of Tyre’s “merchandising” (רכל; rachal) with other nations (27:3, 13-24). Ezekiel declares that in light of the nation’s mercantile wealth, “Tyre… has said, ‘I am of perfect beauty (כלילת יפי; kelilat yophi)’” (27:3). After these descriptions of Tyre in Ezekiel 26-27, the prophet describes its king in the exact same way: “You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and of perfect beauty (כליל יפי; kelil yophi)…. In the abundance of your merchandise (רכלה; rekhullah)… you sinned” (28:12, 16). Ezekiel is not referring to Satan’s “perfect beauty” or “merchandise,” but to that of Tyre—both people and king.
Finally, Ezekiel calls Tyre’s king a “cherub” (כרוב; keruv) in 28:14-16. If this “cherub” refers to either the deceptive serpent in Eden or to a pre-fall Satan in heaven, then it would be exceedingly odd for God to appoint “cherubim” (כרובים; keruvim) to guard the way to the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve are expelled (Gen 3:24). If a “cherub” had rebelled against God and become Satan, why on earth (or in heaven) would God entrust more cherubim with the security of Eden? The only way that Ezekiel’s lament makes linguistic, contextual, or theological sense is if it refers to the king of Tyre in the prophet’s present, not to Satan in the prehistoric past. Ezekiel 28 is not a story of Satan, but rather an example of God’s sovereignty over all the peoples of the earth.
----------------------
outorah.org/p/3720/
Ezekiel - Chapter 28
Rabbi Dr. Gidon Rothstein
Game Over for Tzor
Until now, Ezekiel prophesied about the land of Tzor (Tyre). Now, G-d told Ezekiel to speak about the king of Tzor. The king was arrogant and considered himself a god on Earth; he even had himself made a throne that represented him ruling over the Heavens and the seas. But he's not a god, he's just a man. Forget about being an omniscient god - he's not even as wise as Daniel, who understands profound secrets. He didn't amass his fortune through his own brilliance or skill. But he considered himself G-d's equal, which is why G-d will bring an invasion upon Tzor. The king of Tzor will "die many deaths" by drowning and protesting that he's divine will not save him.
G-d told Ezekiel to mourn over the king of Tzor. They were a land of skilled artisans, whose craftsmanship was instrumental in building the Temple. He considered himself like G-d in the Garden of Eden, rejoicing in his creations. The king's clothes were embedded with all sorts of precious gems. G-d allowed the king of Tzor to enjoy these honors, even though He had the foreknowledge that the man would ultimately become arrogant; he also had the capacity for humility, but he did not utilize it.
G-d compares the king of Tzor to a cherub with a large wingspan. (Remember, cherubim were rather impressive creatures, not the winged babies of Renaissance art. See chapter 10 of this Book for a fuller description.) The king metaphorically covered his people with his wings, protecting them. Tzor earned a special place through their work in building the Temple. The king of Tzor ranked right up there with the kings of Israel, until his huge ego proved his undoing.
The merchants of Tzor started acting unjustly in their business dealings, secure in the knowledge that they wouldn't lose customers, as there was no place else to go. G-d will reject them; they will no longer be renowned for their contributions to the Temple. Tzor became arrogant because of their riches and finery, which overpowered their wisdom. Therefore, G-d will bring them down. Kings of other nations will look down on them. Because of their sins, and the king considering himself a god, a fire will consume them, until they are nothing but a mound of ashes on the ground. People will be astonished by this turn of events, then that's it for Tzor, forever.
G-d spoke to Ezekiel and told him to prophesy about the nation of Tzidon. G-d is against Tzidon and He will be honored when He punishes them for their evil deeds. He will send plague and sword, and blood will run in the streets. The people will know they are doomed and consider themselves already slain.
After G-d has dealt with Amon, Moav, and all the other nations as described in the last few chapters, these nations will no longer be around to antagonize Israel. When G-d returns the Jews to the land of Israel, they will dwell securely. G-d will punish those who have oppressed Israel and everyone will see that this came from Him.
----------------------------
jbqnew.jewishbible.org/uncategorized/ezekiel-wordsmith-prophecies-tyre/
Ezekiel shifts his focus in 28:1-10 to the king of Tyre. The king is so prideful and arrogant that he imagines himself to be a god. Eventually, he will perish at the hands of uncircumcised strangers. Finally, Ezekiel 28:11-19 begins with a dirge over the King of Tyre and ends with the death knell for the port. All who knew you among the peoples are appalled at your doom. You have become a horror and have ceased to be, forever (Ezek. 28:19).
-------------------------------
D"Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord
Baal is a shedim – an archon – from the Beast of Revelation
You just mix them together to make it a confusing mess
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
SO this verse of labels is a lie is it Dave?NOPE – all labels for the BEAST of Revelation
dragon=serpent=devil=shedim=saraph=angel=opposer=father of lies
Seems like you deny Scripture labels?
NOPE – all labels for the BEAST of Revelation
R4" SO you agree that SHedim can bring down fire from heaven?
D4" Sure – King Solomon told us the shedim can manipulate nature – wind/rain/ fertility
R5" But you do not agree the Opposer good angel doing a bad job is not the shedim, devil, Satan?
NO Robert – Hebrew satan IS NOT the Beast of Revelation
NO Robert – Hebrew satan is an angle of the lord in service to the Lord
NO Robert – Jewish satan has always been – beelzebul and the shedim
NO Robert – Jewish demons have always been – the 33 other gods of the Levant = beelzebul and the shedim
NO Robert - the 33 other gods of the Levant have always been = beelzebul and the shedim
NO Robert - the 33 other gods of the Levant – are still the other gods of the Levant
NO Robert – Allah and the Jinn = beelzebul and the shedim – NOT FROM ISRAEL BUT FROM THE LEVANT
NO Robert – James, John, Luke, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas all wrote of the Archon
You split the words satan and satanas as two different creatures, all over a suffix in Greek?
I don’t split the words – scripture does
Hebrew satan only appears once in the agl/New Testament
2Co 12:7 even in the extraordinary quality of the revelations. So that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me—a a messenger of satan to torment me, so I would not exalt myself.
Hebrew satan only appears once in the agl/New Testament
A reminder from the persecutor to stay on the narrow path
satanas - a devil of Chaldean origin appears 36 times in 33 verses
G4567 - Σατανᾶς – Satanas - of Chaldee origin
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
SO this verse of labels is a lie is it Dave?
dragon=serpent=devil=shedim=saraph=angel=opposer=father of lies
Seems like you deny Scripture labels?
The verse is NOT wrong you are
dragon=serpent=devil=shedim=saraph (serpent race - biological) =angel (never – always just the Beast) =opposer=father of lies
R" OK how do you recognize similes or poetry pictures in Ezekiel 28 Dave?
D"None of them rewrite the base text away from the King of Tyre
R" DIdn't say a SIMILE does that,
D"This is about man – every Jewish commentary talks of man’s SIN – Eve’s SIN
R" Yes that is ONE SIMILE picture, agreed
Correction – it is scripture
-------------------
Before Rome invented it – no one ever saw Ezk 28
as a reference to satan or Fallen Angels
JOURNAL ARTICLE
Questions about Eve's Iniquity, Beauty, and Fall: The "Primal Figure" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and "Genesis Rabbah" Traditions of Eve
Journal of Biblical Literature
Vol. 124, No. 4 (Winter, 2005), pp. 641-655 (15 pages)
Published By: The Society of Biblical Literature
-------------------------------------
weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/is-the-prince-of-tyre-satan/
Is the “Prince of Tyre” Satan?
By Dr. Nicholas J. Schaser -February 26, 20206797 46
Alongside Isaiah 14:12-15, a common locus for insight into Satan’s supposed backstory is Ezekiel 28:12-19. Traditionally, post-biblical readers have understood Ezekiel 28 to refer to Satan’s heavenly rebellion against God. Yet, while Ezekiel laments over someone whose wealth and sin are an affront to the Almighty, the prophet does not describe the devil. Instead, Ezekiel 28 refers to the king of Tyre, and “Satan” appears nowhere in the passage. Thus, if we ground our theological understanding on Scripture alone, then we have no reason to posit an angelic prehistory for Satan based on Ezekiel.
In Ezekiel 28, God addresses an individual, saying, “You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and of perfect beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God… You were an anointed guardian cherub” (28:12-14). Despite his high standing, the addressee exhibited “unrighteousness” (עול; evel) and “sinned” (חטא; hata); therefore, God says, “I banished you, guardian cherub…. Your heart was proud because of your beauty… [so] I cast you to the ground” (28:15-17). Many read this passage as a reference to the serpent “in Eden”—which tradition equates with Satan—and then link the satanic snake with an expelled angel. However, immediately before the above verses, God tells Ezekiel to “raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre (מלך צור; melekh tsor)” (28:12). The prophet addresses an earthly king, not a primordial rebel in heaven.
Those who see the figure of Ezekiel 28 as Satan might respond, “But when was the king of Tyre ever ‘in Eden, the garden God’? Doesn’t this show that the prophet is speaking about a spiritual being who rebelled in the primordial past?” Ezekiel’s mention of Eden does not denote a reference to Satan, since the prophet also associates other earthly kings with Eden later in the book. Soon after speaking of Tyre’s king being “in Eden” (בעדן; b’eden), Ezekiel asks the king of Egypt, “‘Whom are you like in glory and greatness among the trees of Eden? You shall be brought down with the trees of Eden… with those slain by the sword.’ This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord God” (Ezekiel 31:18). Of course, Pharaoh was never literally among the trees of Eden, nor were Eden’s trees cut down. Ezekiel places foreign kings “in Eden” metaphorically to ridicule their self-perceived glory; comparing these monarchs with entities in Eden is prophetic hyperbole that highlights the inadequacy of earthly rulers before God.
There are other linguistic and thematic problems with reading Ezekiel 28 as a story about Satan. For instance, the prophecy about Tyre begins at chapter 26, in which Ezekiel tells the people of Tyre that the Babylonians “will plunder your riches and loot your merchandise (רכלה; rekhullah)” (Ezek 26:12). Then, chapter 27 details all of Tyre’s “merchandising” (רכל; rachal) with other nations (27:3, 13-24). Ezekiel declares that in light of the nation’s mercantile wealth, “Tyre… has said, ‘I am of perfect beauty (כלילת יפי; kelilat yophi)’” (27:3). After these descriptions of Tyre in Ezekiel 26-27, the prophet describes its king in the exact same way: “You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and of perfect beauty (כליל יפי; kelil yophi)…. In the abundance of your merchandise (רכלה; rekhullah)… you sinned” (28:12, 16). Ezekiel is not referring to Satan’s “perfect beauty” or “merchandise,” but to that of Tyre—both people and king.
Finally, Ezekiel calls Tyre’s king a “cherub” (כרוב; keruv) in 28:14-16. If this “cherub” refers to either the deceptive serpent in Eden or to a pre-fall Satan in heaven, then it would be exceedingly odd for God to appoint “cherubim” (כרובים; keruvim) to guard the way to the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve are expelled (Gen 3:24). If a “cherub” had rebelled against God and become Satan, why on earth (or in heaven) would God entrust more cherubim with the security of Eden? The only way that Ezekiel’s lament makes linguistic, contextual, or theological sense is if it refers to the king of Tyre in the prophet’s present, not to Satan in the prehistoric past. Ezekiel 28 is not a story of Satan, but rather an example of God’s sovereignty over all the peoples of the earth.
----------------------
outorah.org/p/3720/
Ezekiel - Chapter 28
Rabbi Dr. Gidon Rothstein
Game Over for Tzor
Until now, Ezekiel prophesied about the land of Tzor (Tyre). Now, G-d told Ezekiel to speak about the king of Tzor. The king was arrogant and considered himself a god on Earth; he even had himself made a throne that represented him ruling over the Heavens and the seas. But he's not a god, he's just a man. Forget about being an omniscient god - he's not even as wise as Daniel, who understands profound secrets. He didn't amass his fortune through his own brilliance or skill. But he considered himself G-d's equal, which is why G-d will bring an invasion upon Tzor. The king of Tzor will "die many deaths" by drowning and protesting that he's divine will not save him.
G-d told Ezekiel to mourn over the king of Tzor. They were a land of skilled artisans, whose craftsmanship was instrumental in building the Temple. He considered himself like G-d in the Garden of Eden, rejoicing in his creations. The king's clothes were embedded with all sorts of precious gems. G-d allowed the king of Tzor to enjoy these honors, even though He had the foreknowledge that the man would ultimately become arrogant; he also had the capacity for humility, but he did not utilize it.
G-d compares the king of Tzor to a cherub with a large wingspan. (Remember, cherubim were rather impressive creatures, not the winged babies of Renaissance art. See chapter 10 of this Book for a fuller description.) The king metaphorically covered his people with his wings, protecting them. Tzor earned a special place through their work in building the Temple. The king of Tzor ranked right up there with the kings of Israel, until his huge ego proved his undoing.
The merchants of Tzor started acting unjustly in their business dealings, secure in the knowledge that they wouldn't lose customers, as there was no place else to go. G-d will reject them; they will no longer be renowned for their contributions to the Temple. Tzor became arrogant because of their riches and finery, which overpowered their wisdom. Therefore, G-d will bring them down. Kings of other nations will look down on them. Because of their sins, and the king considering himself a god, a fire will consume them, until they are nothing but a mound of ashes on the ground. People will be astonished by this turn of events, then that's it for Tzor, forever.
G-d spoke to Ezekiel and told him to prophesy about the nation of Tzidon. G-d is against Tzidon and He will be honored when He punishes them for their evil deeds. He will send plague and sword, and blood will run in the streets. The people will know they are doomed and consider themselves already slain.
After G-d has dealt with Amon, Moav, and all the other nations as described in the last few chapters, these nations will no longer be around to antagonize Israel. When G-d returns the Jews to the land of Israel, they will dwell securely. G-d will punish those who have oppressed Israel and everyone will see that this came from Him.
----------------------------
jbqnew.jewishbible.org/uncategorized/ezekiel-wordsmith-prophecies-tyre/
Ezekiel shifts his focus in 28:1-10 to the king of Tyre. The king is so prideful and arrogant that he imagines himself to be a god. Eventually, he will perish at the hands of uncircumcised strangers. Finally, Ezekiel 28:11-19 begins with a dirge over the King of Tyre and ends with the death knell for the port. All who knew you among the peoples are appalled at your doom. You have become a horror and have ceased to be, forever (Ezek. 28:19).
-------------------------------
Aug 31, 2022 16:45:56 GMT -5 @robertt said:
D"Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord
Baal is a shedim – an archon – from the Beast of Revelation
You just mix them together to make it a confusing mess
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
SO this verse of labels is a lie is it Dave?
dragon=serpent=devil=shedim=
Seems like you deny Scripture labels?
NOPE – all labels for the BEAST of Revelation
R4" SO you agree that SHedim can bring down fire from heaven?
D4" Sure – King Solomon told us the shedim can manipulate nature – wind/rain/ fertility
R5" But you do not agree the Opposer good angel doing a bad job is not the shedim, devil, Satan?
NO Robert – Hebrew satan IS NOT the Beast of Revelation
NO Robert – Hebrew satan is an angle of the lord in service to the Lord
NO Robert – Jewish satan has always been – beelzebul and the shedim
NO Robert – Jewish demons have always been – the 33 other gods of the Levant = beelzebul and the shedim
NO Robert - the 33 other gods of the Levant have always been = beelzebul and the shedim
NO Robert - the 33 other gods of the Levant – are still the other gods of the Levant
NO Robert – Allah and the Jinn = beelzebul and the shedim – NOT FROM ISRAEL BUT FROM THE LEVANT
NO Robert – James, John, Luke, Paul, Peter, Phillip, and Thomas all wrote of the Archon
You split the words satan and satanas as two different creatures, all over a suffix in Greek?
I don’t split the words – scripture does
Hebrew satan only appears once in the agl/New Testament
2Co 12:7 even in the extraordinary quality of the revelations. So that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me—a a messenger of satan to torment me, so I would not exalt myself.
Hebrew satan only appears once in the agl/New Testament
A reminder from the persecutor to stay on the narrow path
satanas - a devil of Chaldean origin appears 36 times in 33 verses
G4567 - Σατανᾶς – Satanas - of Chaldee origin
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
SO this verse of labels is a lie is it Dave?
dragon=serpent=devil=shedim=saraph=angel=opposer=father of lies
Seems like you deny Scripture labels?
The verse is NOT wrong you are
dragon=serpent=devil=shedim=