Robert's - denial of Judaism

[Deleted]

THIRD discussion of HYPOTHESIS: What does Peter mean in 1 Peter 3: 19 "spirits in prison" ?

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R2" Introduction: Some claim Jesus died and preaches to the lost in Hades in a spirit form while His body lies in Hades. This verse reinforces the claim the "spirit lives" after a body dies, and it capable of speaking or witnessing to other "spirits" captured by Hades, awaiting purification, a divine pardon or the sentence of eternal non-existence.


D2" Why do you say captured by hades? – word man

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Those that He preached to were – those that were alive at the time of Noah
How can Christ minister to dead bodies in a grave?
Christ ministered to the lost souls (spirits in prison) that were alive at the time of Noah


R3" Dave is saying that Jesus went to the wicked humans as they were alive at the time of Noah and preached the salvation process to them, as they were alive at the time of Noah?

Dave questions "How can Christ minister to dead bodies in a grave?" therefore Dave does not support the idea that Jesus cannot preach to "spirits who have left their bodies" and gone to Hades.

You question my word "capture", I thought you see "prison house" as a place were "spirits" go to after they die? you seem to have changed your mind?

So Dave, are you saying the wicked alive in Noah's time, were trapped in the "prison house" and so Jesus preached to them?

This "prison house" could mean the wicked were trapped in their own bodies corrupted by sin, by their own decisions to live in darkness, and by their own fears to avoid living for God, etc.

Please state clearly what you are supporting.



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R2" It is possible this phrase used by Peter is a Hebrew idiom, meaning something coined by the Hebrew cultures themselves. Consider the whole chapter of Isaiah 42.


D2" The New Testament is not error – it is not a fable – it is not a giant metaphor
Each and every word is true – either you believe the New Testament or you don’t
No such thing as believing in only parts of it = error
No such thing as picking and choosing your favorite verses to champion
Precept upon precept, line upon line


R3" Why do you have trouble reading words Dave, I said "idiom" not "metaphor"?

An idiom is a saying that has a cultural meaning known only to the language itself.
Many people forget the Bible was written in a culture of people called Hebrews, who spoke Hebrew and made words puns and idioms in Hebrew.

For examples of Hebrew idioms :-

1. "Pick up snakes" Mark 16:18 - "handle their enemies"
2. "Cut it off and pluck it out" Mark 9:43-47 - "if something is offending you, stop doing it".
3. "Eyes of your heart" Ephesians 1:18 - eyes of understanding.
4. "Of the household" Ephesians 2:19 - "the sons of the house of"
5. "Bowels of Jesus" Philippians 1:8, 2:1 / Colossians 3:12 / Philemon 7, 12, 20 / 1John 3:17 / 2Corinthians 6:12 - "the affections of Jesus"
6. "His face was set" Luke 9:53 "to make up one's mind" Amos 9:4 Jeremiah 3:12 Jeremiah 21:10 Jeremiah 42:15 Jeremiah 44:12
7. "Their phylacteries and borders" Matthew 23:5 - 'Tekhelet' is the correct Biblical term here, the name for the actual blue strand in the 'tzitzit', or fringes. See Numbers 15:38
8. Who shall "declare his generation"? Acts 8:33 - "his line was cut off"
9. "Pressed in the spirit " Acts 18:5 - impeded in discourses, or stopped from doing things.
10. "Son of its hour" Matthew 13:5 - "immediately"
11. "High mountain" Matthew 4:8 / Luke 4:5 - "figurative speech" Satan took Jesus on a high mountain. This means he took him to the summit of his highest human imagination, and he made all these offers to him, if Jesus would but fall down and worship him.
12. How your "breath should depart" Luke 12:11-12 (1) The Greek translators did not know what to do with the phrase "how your breath should depart", since this is a Hebrew idiom which means "how to compose your speech" (ie, "speak properly")

There are many Hebrew idioms in the Greek translations, proving the NT was originally written and understood in Hebrew culture, not Greek words using Greek culture.

For more on Hebrew Idioms, see Jeff Benner work

www.ancient-hebrew.org/language/ancient-hebrew-idioms.htm

Now a "metaphor" is a totally different idea, a phrase coined by Jewish to remove the simile aspects found in poetry. A different topic.


D"Each and every word is true – either you believe the New Testament or you don’t
R" I do, but a different topic

D"No such thing as believing in only parts of it = error
R" correct , but this is a different topic

D"No such thing as picking and choosing your favorite verses to champion
R" correct , but this is a different topic

D"Precept upon precept, line upon line
R" correct , but this is a different topic

Back to the word "spirits in prison" in 1 Peter 3:19, I understand this as a Hebrew idiom.

Do you agree with me Dave?

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R2" Isa 42:5 ¶ Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Note the same Hebrew words are mentioned again in the breath of life phrase, the "nashamah" and the "ruwach", allow the human to become a living soul.


D2" OK word man – call it whatever you like
man is spirit – preexist conception – comes to earth to souljourn – and returns to God for judgment


R3" You said "How can Christ minister to dead bodies in a grave?
Christ ministered to the lost souls (spirits in prison) that were alive at the time of Noah"

R3" You state the "spirit" leaves the dead body so Jesus is not preaching to a dead body?

But than you say Jesus preached to "spirits" alive at the time of Noah?

How is that possible? Did Jesus go back in time? Time travel?

When you say man is spirit? What words in Hebrew are you using RUWACH or Nashamah? or both?

Provide an example of nashamah pre-existing the body that allows nashamah to breathe?

As for ruwach, this term refers to a quality of elohiym, so is always timeless, and thus eternal.

God cannot give RUWACH to humans as their own little piece of God, this would imply GOD can break up God and give away bits of GOD to creatures. Where is your verses?

Only God is immortal Scripture says.

Dave writes "preexist conception – comes to earth to souljourn " OK where is your Bible texts for this idea, please explain.

the word for spirit pre-exist
The idea of before conception
The idea of coming to earth, suggesting it was formed in heaven
Bible texts please.


Ge 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

What does "all the host" mean?

Ge 2:4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day

How can you have generations of time in a single day?

So we focus on hard Scriptures do we? Is that it?

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ps 131:1 ...neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

Scripture says to begin with the easy stuff and forget the harder bits.

You don't agree with this principle do you Dave?

If the "spirits" pre-exist, where are the numerous texts, or related themes in Scritpure?

And what Hebrew word are you using for "spirit lives" ?


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R2" Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Here is the idiom Peter refers to, God comes to those in prison and in darkness to bring them out of the prison house. God also sees those in the prison house as blind.


D2" YEP – lost in the darkness (ignorance of God)


R3" Than you are agreeing with me that "spirits in prison" is a Hebrew idiom meaning the humans trapped in darkness, in sins and with bodies corrupted by sins?

Explain how darkness is ignorance of God?

Darkness is a simile of sinning ? Another topic so we will not go there, OK?



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R2" Isa 42:24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.
What causes us to be blind and held in a prison house, is our sins and our disobedience to His Law.


D2" YES – God did it – God does it – because it is all God’s Plan – all Gods; Will


R3" You agree with me that "spirits in prison" is an idiom meaning meaning the human is trapped in a body corrupted by sin, living in darkness caused by sins, and is fearful of God, also caused by our sinning?

Whether sinning is a designed part of God's will, is another topic.

R2" Ro 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


D2" This bondage is caused by our bodies having corruption.
So agree – flesh is flesh and flesh is WORLD


R3" so you agree the body is a simile of a "prison house" for the human soul?

DO you agree with me that the term "spirits in prison" is an idiom meaning meaning the human is trapped in a body corrupted by sin, living in darkness caused by sins, and is fearful of God, also caused by our sinning?



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Dave quotes "The Apocryphon (Secret Book) of James"

D2" Do you dare to spare the flesh, you for whom the Spirit is a surrounding wall?
R3" Is this your evidence that the spirit can be separated from its body and comes to earth to sojourn ?

R2" Now can the Scriptures support the idea that after the body dies, the "spirit lives"?
D2" Every scripture that promises eternal life
Every Jew has always believed in an eternal resurrection and life with the Father
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The Promise of eternal life
R3" How is this promised reward, proof the "spirit lives" within Dave?


D2" There is nothing eternal about things born on earth of biology over the centuries – one by one – only to stop existing – then to exist again – so they can die again


R3" Enoch walked right into heaven in his biology, the old biology restored back to no corruption by now? is many thousands of years old counting the years from His birth.
You do not understand what biology is, it is the presence of GOD coupled to the DNA code to replicate instructions over and over with perfect precision. The mechanical part of machines can be stopped and started at will, after all the machine is just a machine made out of proteins.

As for the presence of GOD partnered to the machine, this causes the nashamah/ruwach to empower within man, memories of divine encounters, faith developments that respond to love, a quality no machine can produce or fathom. Because such development of spirit is caused by relationship to God, it can be turned off and on at will also, can't it?


D2" Eternal life = created on Day 1 – will live eternally
R3" so if the eternal created on day 1 had a beginning, it's not eternal is it? you just goofed.

The word "ruwach" has a beginning and there is one verse where the ruwach is created,

(Ps 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth)

so the term is NOT eternal, but the SHADDAY that empowers ruwach is eternal, and a great uncaused cause. Job 33:3 has the RUWACH administrated by the SHADDAY on command, I see this as a functional need for a medium, because it's the only way to allow sinning to exist.

The word "nashamah" only exists when a body exists, so it is not eternal either.

D2"created to be eternal UNLESS I end up in the Lake of Fire – The Second Death
R3" How can something be eternal and end up non-existent in the Lake of Fire, its not eternal is it? You play word games.



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R2" Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
D2"YES - RUWACH EL – ruawach with an adjective modifier for identification – Spirit of God
YES – the female Holy Spirit – the womb of creation – Mother - Left Hand
and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. = Gen 2:7


R3" RUWACH EL is a hebrew construct, not a "adjective modifier for identification " than you write "Spirit of God" is how translators normal translate "Hebrew constructs"

Hebrew adjectives are rare. "royal torah" is one I know.

The thing here is the SHADDAY is eternal and uncaused.

The RUWACH is caused and created as a function, (medium) to allow sinning to exist, otherwise sin never exists in the presence of God as love and God as light and God as fire.

Hence the reason for the SHADDAY to create a MEDIUM and administrate this medium passively.


D2" Correct – Jesus died – Christ was poured out / released to preach to the lost in hades
R3" But you said Jesus did preach to dead bodies in the grave? But to those alive at the time of Noah?

Please explain?

R2" Man has no power over the RUWACH when we die
D2" Correct – only God does
R3" OK why do you use the term "ruwach" than, if only GOD controls the "ruwach" and not man?

So what word is the "spirit lives" refer to ? Can't be "ruwach" because that belongs to God and the ruwach returns to God after the soul dies. Can't be nashamah, as this functions only in partnership to the body.

SO when a body dies, the soul also dies, and the ruwach as the HS, returns to God. The human just sleeps, without talking, or thinking or being anywhere.

D2" YES – from God we came – and to God we will return - DUH
R3" Explain how humans came from God? and returns to God? Bible please?

Man is partnered to God yes, upon our living, but this does not mean man comes from a part of God. Gods love is developed in the living man, but this does not mean man can own that love and forever see that development as his own, we are stewards of His love, not owners of His love.

Your words are subtle and different to what Scripture teaches.

When Jesus is yoked to us and we are the cattle, the yoke is the LAW and the man 'commanding' us to plough is the Father, the process is one of partnership, training and three walking together. (independently but as ONE ploughing unit)

R2" Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
When the RUWACH leaves us, our thoughts perish, because our nashamah stops functioning.
D2" NOT TALKING about the brain / intellect / knowledge / biology – all perish
R3" The biology is the seat of our thinking and speaking and doing, is it not?

Are you suggesting the RUWACH speaks for us, thinks for us and does thing for us once the body dies, and thus the "spirit lives" is the ruwach speaking and doing and refining itself for us?

Do you understand what a partner is? Divine + human?

When the partnership ends, the living ends, so does the speaking and thinking of the human. The Divine can talk ,think yes, but never is the divine part, a part of the human, only partnered to the human, there is a difference here.

OK you turn to discuss within each discussion and try to write more and add your thinking.

And stay on topic.

Add bible verses that supply your evidence.

Shalom

[Dave]

1Pe 3:18  Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Those that He preached to were – those that were alive at the time of Noah
How can Christ minister to dead bodies in a grave?
Christ ministered to the lost souls (spirits in prison) that were alive at the time of Noah

R3" Dave is saying that Jesus went to the wicked humans as they were alive at the time of Noah and preached the salvation process to them, as they were alive at the time of Noah?
Why must you misrepresent me and others to validate your doctrine

Jesus died upon the cross – his body of flesh went into the tomb – dead biology
But the spirit (Christ) was released from the body – LIFE LIVES - Christ in spirit went into hades and preached to the spirit that were there – especially the spirits of those who died at the time of the flood.

Robert has taught – man has no spirit – only biology – Jesus dies and Robert denies that Christ could have preached in the spirit – because man has no spirit only body
Instead Robert teaches that Christ died in the Lake of Fire the Second death from which there is no return

Dave questions "How can Christ minister to dead bodies in a grave?"
Correct – Dave asked Robert – if there is no spirit life after death – only the grave
"How can Christ minister to dead bodies in a grave?"

You teach that Christ died – Lake of Fire – the Second Death
"How could Christ minister to dead bodies in a grave – if Christ was dead

This "prison house" could mean the wicked were trapped in their own bodies
Except you teach - they are dead – and their bodies are in the grave awaiting Resurrection


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R2" It is possible this phrase used by Peter is a Hebrew idiom, meaning something coined by the Hebrew cultures themselves.
D2" The New Testament is not error – it is not a fable – it is not a giant metaphor

R3" Why do you have trouble reading words Dave, I said "idiom" not "metaphor"?
Don’t care what word game you play – why are you trying to rewrite the New Testament?

D"Each and every word is true – either you believe the New Testament or you don’t
R" I do, but a different topic
Then why are you trying to rewrite the New Testament?


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D2" OK word man – call it whatever you like
man is spirit – preexist conception – comes to earth to souljourn – and returns to God for judgment

R3" You said "How can Christ minister to dead bodies in a grave?
Christ ministered to the lost souls (spirits in prison) that were alive at the time of Noah"
Correct in the spirit – Christ preached to the spirits of the dead – their bodies in a grave somewhere

R3" You state the "spirit" leaves the dead body so Jesus is not preaching to a dead body?
Correct in the spirit – Christ preached to the spirits of the dead – their bodies in a grave somewhere

But than you say Jesus preached to "spirits" alive at the time of Noah?
Correct in the spirit – Christ preached to the spirits of the dead – their bodies in a grave somewhere

How is that possible? Did Jesus go back in time? Time travel?
Correct in the spirit – Christ preached to the spirits of the dead – their bodies in a grave somewhere


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R2" Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Here is the idiom Peter refers to, God comes to those in prison and in darkness to bring them out of the prison house. God also sees those in the prison house as blind.
D2" YEP – lost in the darkness (ignorance of God)

R3" Than you are agreeing with me that "spirits in prison" is a Hebrew idiom meaning the humans trapped in darkness, in sins and with bodies corrupted by sins?
NOPE – dead bodies in the grave and the spirit of those dead held in purgatory

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R2" Ro 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

D2" This bondage is caused by our bodies having corruption.
So agree – flesh is flesh and flesh is WORLD

R3" so you agree the body is a simile of a "prison house" for the human soul?
Man is the host for the soul – the vehicle of the soul – it is not a prison it is your body of flesh
Biology / flesh is the corrption - I agree - flesh is corruptable
Doesn't have anything to do with Christ preaching in the spirit the to the spirits of the dead

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D2"created to be eternal UNLESS I end up in the Lake of Fire – The Second Death
R3" How can something be eternal and end up non-existent in the Lake of Fire, its not eternal is it? You play word games.
So – now you deny the punishment for SIN


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D2" Correct – Jesus died – Christ was poured out / released to preach to the lost in hades
R3" But you said Jesus did preach to dead bodies in the grave? But to those alive at the time of Noah?

Please explain?
The explanation is that you deliberated misrepresent me – just to be an opposing ass for sport

[Deleted]

Fourth discussion "1 Peter 3:19 "spirits in prison" ?

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Dave you need to to stop writing contradictory stuff to entangle me, you know my view and I know your view.

I have never said man has no spirit - only biology.... can't you post it correctly?

A soul lives only when the biological body is partnered to the source of living - GOD.
A soul cannot exist without its body.
The nashamah spirit  functions when the soul is alive . 
The nashamah  spirit ceases to exist when the soul dies. (Rob's view)

D"Instead Robert teaches that Christ died in the Lake of Fire the Second death from which there is no return
R4" Jesus was allowed to return because he had done no sinning.
Why do you keep on posting things I do not say?

Now this discussion has considered that "spirits in prison" is a Hebrew idiom. The passage as a whole doesn't read very well, as to why Peter writes it.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

You are a Greek scholar, where is the full stop in this passage, what is the object of the sentence,
and next sentence and so forth? All I see is a translation mess.

1Pe 3:17 (YLT) for [it is] better doing good, if the will of God will it, to suffer, than doing evil; 1Pe 3:18 (YLT) because also Christ once for sin did suffer--righteous for unrighteous--that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 1Pe 3:19 (YLT) in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, 1Pe 3:20 (YLT) who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah--an ark being preparing--in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

Rob's attempt to translate... "It is better doing good if God wills this,, than to suffer doing evil because Jesus did once for sins suffer, straight for crookedness, that Jesus might lead us to God ; having been put to death in the flesh and not is made alive in the Spirit.

Jesus went to "the humans trapped in a body full of sin" {Hebrew idiom - "spirits in prison"} and preached to them. This preaching is compared to "the days of Noah" when God waited long to save many but few chose to be saved except eight, were saved through the water.

I would underline the words of the idiom so the translation words are an explanation of the idiom in the other language, plus as a foot note.

A translator has a problem when coming across a Hebrew idiom, one cannot just translate the idiom into word for word meanings because that does not translate the idiom into English correctly, so its a time to footnote and explain to readers what is going on.

I think what Peter is doing is making a metaphor comparison to the humans in His day were trapped in sins, is just like the days of Noah, people were trapped in sins, and they didn't know this.


Please discuss, do you agree with me so far?

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D3"Don’t care what word game you play – why are you trying to rewrite the New Testament?
R4" Who said anything about writing the entire NT, a translator just needs to alert the reader to the idiom, foot note the idiom and move on to Hebrew words that translate easily as single words.

Idioms are a group of words in a cultural language, that do not translate into another language correctly.

"gotta get some tucker" means what to Americans?

"where is my chips Mum"? Means what to Americans?

"don't play with petrol"? means what to Americans?

"pick up snakes" means what to Australians or Americans?

"stingy eye" means what to Australians or Americans?

A snippet of a poem I wrote aged 17

"Times were hard,
An' sweat marks the blows,"

What do you do with this, so Americans understand the Australian idiom here?

"true blue" means what to an American?


D" Then why are you trying to rewrite the New Testament?
R4" I am not, just presenting to you a problem with what to do with idioms?

I would appreciate your input to how you consider the idioms I posted above.

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D" Correct in the spirit – Christ preached to the spirits of the dead – their bodies in a grave somewhere


R4" How can that be so in your view, I thought a spirit is purified only so long, 12 months,
so did they need preaching to again, some 2000 years later.... does that mean you support purgatory?

When you speak of "spirit lives" what Hebrew word are you referring to?


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R2" Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Here is the idiom Peter refers to, God comes to those in prison and in darkness to bring them out of the prison house. God also sees those in the prison house as blind.
D2" YEP – lost in the darkness (ignorance of God)
R3" Than you are agreeing with me that "spirits in prison" is a Hebrew idiom meaning the humans trapped in darkness, in sins and with bodies corrupted by sins?
D3" NOPE – dead bodies in the grave and the spirit of those dead held in purgatory
R4" so you do not support that "spirits in prison" is an idiom?

You say it means the "living spirits of dead humans are trapped in the Hades prison"

The verse does not say that? no mention of hell or hades anywhere....

Line upon line remember? Where is your verses that the "spirit" lives after the body dies?

What Hebrew word are you using for this idea?

Please discuss why you do not consider this a Hebrew idiom?


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R2" Ro 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

R2" This bondage is caused by our bodies having corruption.
D2" So agree – flesh is flesh and flesh is WORLD

R3" so you agree the body is a simile of a "prison house" for the human soul?
D3" Man is the host for the soul – the vehicle of the soul – it is not a prison it is your body of flesh
Biology / flesh is the corrption - I agree - flesh is corruptable
Doesn't have anything to do with Christ preaching in the spirit the to the spirits of the dead


R4" Don't you see when the human sins, they become trapped in a prison house, their bodies are biologically wired to become impacted by the consequence of the sinning, the epi-genetics, the aven propensities all record the consequences of your sinning, so if you change your mind, the body does not change that easily, and your "spirit is prison" cannot be freed so easily anymore.

This is what I feel the passage is speaking about. Do you agree?

And please write a discussion, not the brief lines you do.

This verse is yet another example of the Hebrew idioms and poetry pictures played out in Scripture.

You are reading "spirits in prison" inventing a theme, not found in Scripture.

Please discuss using Rom 8:21


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D2"created to be eternal UNLESS I end up in the Lake of Fire – The Second Death
R3" How can something be eternal and end up non-existent in the Lake of Fire, its not eternal is it? You play word games.
D3" So – now you deny the punishment for SIN


R4" No Dave, answer the question - stop playing word games.
If something is eternal it comes from GOD.

It cannot be disposed of and thrown into a fire. It's eternal DUH.

I asked you what Hebrew word are you using for "spirit lives" the Rabbi never tell us.

I wonder why? Part to trip you up and deceive?

So this "eternal spirit" is not eternal is it? Do you agree with me?

In your view this "spirit" is merely a gift, and very conditional depending upon you. Do you agree with me?



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D2" Correct – Jesus died – Christ was poured out / released to preach to the lost in hades
R4"

no mention of hades in 1 Peter 3:18 to 20, you just goofed??

Explain to me how preaching to 2000 yr old plus spirits trapped somewhere is going to help them do what?

So the spirits here, listen, speak and think outside of the body can they?

Is this the same spirits a medium gets to speak to those who request this? Like Samuel for instance? Is this proof your spirit theory is true?

Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

So this verse is proof your spirit theory is true, that the spirit can speak while in hell?

Lu 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Why does Jesus add this than, a "great gulf is fixed" ?

Lu 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

So the spirits go to a place of torment? And this is true, further proof your spirit theory is true?

Lu 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Why does Jesus finish with the rising from the dead, if the spirit lives?

Your theory is not true, Jesus was picking in a common theory the Jews had, and picked holes in their theory, just as I do to your theory now. This passage proves that Jesus had to contend with Hellenized Jews who no longer followed the Hebrew torah correctly.

Scriptures teach us not to have anything to do with mediums, talking to so called spirits of the dead people.... its a myth Dave. 


---------Dave wrote 16 sentences
--------Rob writes 60+ sentences

Learn to write discussions Dave, it helps in your thinking process. It helps me communicate to you better,

Others will benefit from your posting, not just me, the forum is public and open to all readers for the time the electronic is open into the future.

Shalom

[Dave]

D" I use a dictionary – so that I am on the same page as the rest of the intelligent world
R" Hmm? I like to learn my own definitions, the world can fit into me, not me into the world.

R” A SDA considers the poetry as figurative, not real, -
D” so does everyone else on the planet
R” whereas Rob considers the poetry simile as literal and true,
Why – why would you – why would anyone?
Robert is as dumb as a box of rocks – simile - Are you the box or the rocks?
Robert is as dull as a worn out knife – simile – what type of knife are you?
You avoid answering questions – tying to be as slippery as a snake in the grass – are you the serpent?
Often you are as disrespectful as a child – simile – are you a child?
Constantly you are as stubborn as a mule – simile – what is your donkey name – jack ass?

This may be my last post to you – I have been patient with you – I have been tolerant toward you – I have been honest with you – I have called you out for your level of seriousness – I have begged you to up your game.
But you just like to oppose mainstream Christianity for sport
Your satan god must be so proud

If you post here again – it better be serious or I will just delete your anti-Christian crap
--------------------

I have never said man has no spirit - only biology.... can't you post it correctly?
STOP LYING Mr HONEST – you teach that man is NOT a spirit – you teach man is only biology empowered by the Holy Spirit

A soul lives only when the biological body is partnered to the source of living - GOD.
CORRECT – you deny that man is a unique and independent individual
You teach that each man is just a small piece of the Holy Spirit

D"Instead Robert teaches that Christ died in the Lake of Fire the Second death from which there is no return
R4" Jesus was allowed to return because he had done no sinning.
Why do you keep on posting things I do not say?
Why would Christ preach to the lost souls within the Second Death
Answer – you deny the New Testament and you have a man-made doctrine
--------------------

Now this discussion has considered that "spirits in prison" is a Hebrew idiom.
This discussion = man is spirit – in or out of the body
The discussion = Christ in spirit (while His body was in the tomb) preached to the lost souls/spirits (and their bodies were in a grave somewhere)

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

-------2---------
D3"Don’t care what word game you play – why are you trying to rewrite the New Testament?
R4" Who said anything about writing the entire NT,
Childish game play - for sport

[Deleted]

Greetings Dave

So all this discussion I tried to set up with you, detailed and itemized as I made it was just "Childish game play - for sport"

So serious a person you are Dave, can't you defend your faith?
Apparently you can't.

Than you post a comment from your last post across into this post, attempting to shut the whole discussion now. Since you no longer wish to discuss, than I have won the discussion with my comments, because you cannot reply to them satisfactorily.

D"STOP LYING Mr HONEST – you teach that man is NOT a spirit – you teach man is only biology empowered by the Holy Spirit

R" Correct, I do not have some "eternal spark" gifted to a human body, that was created on day 1 of Creation, waiting around as a "spirit" to enter a "body" when God says to enter "the body" prepared for this "spirit". You have no Bible verses for this theory, it's completely invented by Hellenized Jews, and does not come from the Hebrew Torah. And you have not given me a single Bible proof of evidence, yet you are happy to exclaim you and your Hellenized Jews are correct !!!!!

Shalom

[Dave]

Since you no longer wish to discuss, than I have won the discussion with my comments, because you cannot reply to them satisfactorily.
WIN – the other children on the playground must be so proud of you

You believe your own metaphor instead of scripture
NO ONE is interested in discussing your fantasies
Discuss scripture with reverence – or shut up
------------------

I have never said man has no spirit - only biology.... can't you post it correctly?
D"STOP LYING Mr HONEST – you teach that man is NOT a spirit – you teach man is only biology empowered by the Holy Spirit

R" Correct, I do not have some "eternal spark" gifted to a human body, that was created on day 1 of Creation, waiting around as a "spirit" to enter a "body"

It is hard to have an honest discussion with someone dishonest

[Deleted]

If it is so easy to justify your eternal spirit story that show me the Bible texts Dave.

SO every human that ever lived,... all existed as sinless spirits on day 1 of Creation, yet GOD writes down this royal law that includes Sabbath laws on it, and thus the laws refer to SINNING before the sinless spirits have entered entered their chosen bodies to even understanding what sinning could be?

And this laws are weird for a sinless spirit.... what is sinning?

Have no other Elohiym power before GOD? What other elohiym powers?

The angels don't know,

the sinless spirits don't know,

so why write laws about things that doesn't exist ?,

and terms a spirit cannot do unless inside the body with inherent entropy and RA in it, causing the spirit to struggle, thus developing their free will to choose GOD better.

And if there is no such thing as a god, neither by humans nor by Shedim, than either Dave is bigger than the Scriptures or you deny the Scriptures,

because the Scriptures speak of false elohiym powers all the time.

D"It is hard to have an honest discussion with someone dishonest
R" Dave just expects everybody to follow your view, well some of us don't.

I do not know Gnostic Hellenized Jewish things, nor care to know. Such editing is outside the Hebrew Scripture. I am not into Roman edit or Greek edit. You follow a Greek Hellenized edit of the Scriptures. 

So if the humans cannot be false elohiym powers, and shedim cannot be false elohiym powers, than WHOM is the royal torah referring to ?

Shalom

[Dave]

SO every human that ever lived,... all existed as sinless spirits on day 1 of Creation,
YES – we are the Bride of Christ – the army of the Lord – the host of heaven

yet GOD writes down this royal law that includes Sabbath laws on it, and thus the laws refer to SINNING before the sinless spirits have entered entered their chosen bodies to even understanding what sinning could be?
And this laws are weird for a sinless spirit.... what is sinning?
I am not sure I even understand your nonsense

There was an age of no law
Rom 5:13 For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law.

Then the first commandment was given to man
Gen 2:16 Then Adonai Elohim commanded the man saying, “From all the trees of the garden you are most welcome to eat.
Gen 2:17 But of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you must not eat. For when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die!”

Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned.

what is sinning? – disobeying God or transgressing His commandments

Have no other Elohiym power before GOD? What other elohiym powers?
The angels don't know,
the sinless spirits don't know,
so why write laws about things that doesn't exist ?,

Correct – in heaven there is no need for the Law – because God is the only choice
In the WORLD – the Law was given – then broken – and sin and death entered the WORLD

and terms a spirit cannot do unless inside the body with inherent entropy and RA in it, causing the spirit to struggle, thus developing their free will to choose GOD better.
I am not sure I even understand your nonsense

No SIN in heaven (yester tov) – the only choice
only SIN in the WORLD – because the WORLD comes with (yester ra) and choice between tov and ra

And if there is no such thing as a god,
WHAT – THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD – ONE TRUE CREATOR
Your blasphemy accumulates
---------------

neither by humans nor by Shedim, than either Dave is bigger than the Scriptures or you deny the Scriptures,
because the Scriptures speak of false elohiym powers all the time.
DUH – DUH and double DUH – they are FALSE gods – they are not God
They are men or beast that think they have power – they are not God – they are imposters
Man or Beast - are created creatures – NOT GOD

They are NOT fasle gods in heaven at war with the Creator
They are created man or BEAST of this WORLD - in this WORLD

Numbers 21 – how to you overcome ‘fiery serpents’ – evil spirits (demons / shedim)
Answer – EXPOSE THEM – run them up on a pole for all to see
i.e they lose power over you – and it becomes a healing event

agl/NT – how do you overcome the ‘sar’ of this WORLD
Answer – EXPOSE THE SAVIOUR – run Him up on a pole for all to see

Eph 6:10-20 – recognize who THEY are – expose them for who they are – fight them with the truth – fight them with scripture – fight them with you steadfast belief / faith – fight them with TRUST

Even if Hitler is throwing you into an oven – TRUST – that it is all God’s Wil and God’s Plan

Why did God test Job – Job has been witnessing to all the nations of the world for 4000 years
What will be your legacy?
-------------------

D"It is hard to have an honest discussion with someone dishonest
R" Dave just expects everybody to follow your view, well some of us don't.
Who cares about the minor details – you stand against Christianity in its entirety
You deny the ONE TRUE GOD – you have a family of multiple gods
You include an angel as the god of evil
You deny the spirit and the spiritual
You deny proportional punishment – Hitler and your neighbor reap the same punishment
You absolutely deny that LIFE LIVES
You teach that GOD died
You deny that the cross was enough for salvation – you must do things as faith practice to maintain your salvation
You teach ‘eternal life’ as a reward for doing well
Christianity teaches – ‘forgiveness of sins through Christ’ is a reprieve from the Second Death so that our lives continue

Who cares about the minor details – you stand against Christianity in its entirety
Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 validate the Intelligent Design – validate a CREATOR
Why would a Christian argue against this revelation and offer vegetarian sharks as a replacement doctrine
ONLY satan wants people to deny the Intelligent Designer
We all wonder which side you are on

The only thing about your theology we know as a consistent fact is your believe in your satan god
And you will not hesitate to repeat Ezk 28 over and over and over and over as proof
--------------------------------

So if the humans cannot be false elohiym powers, and shedim cannot be false elohiym powers, than WHOM is the royal torah referring to ?
ABSOLUTE ROBERT NONSENSE – what a valuable in depth discussion

[Deleted]

D"There was an age of no law
Rom 5:13 For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law.
R" No wonder you get confused, you never read Hebrew, so reading Greek you get stammering idea.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue in Greek, will God speak to this people.

If you want more truth, convert the Greek back to Hebrew, and make the NT align with the OT.

Rom 5:13 For up until the Ceremonial Torah, for sin-offering was in the world; but sin-offering does not count as sin-offering when there is no ceremonial-law.

The royal torah is different to the ceremonial torah, one was placed under the seat of the FATHERS throne, and other placed along side of the Father's throne. Jews never consider them separate, because they do not read James in the NT.

Only when man sinned did Jesus volunteer to die for the mischief makers mischief and rescue humans from corrupted biological flesh.

I notice Rabbi Apple in his article

In Jewish thinking there is no normative doctrine of Original Sin, deriving from the Genesis narrative of Adam’s transgression interpreted as causing his descendants to be morally tainted. There are odd folkloristic suggestions of this kind in Jewish literature, and resentment against Adam for what he did, [19] 19. George Foot Moore, Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian but no doctrinal significance is attached thereto. The Bible does not refer to Adam’s lapse anywhere else, and the rabbinic tradition does not teach that man’s moral constitution was changed by reason of Adam’s actions. Indeed, Genesis itself emphasises that man is a free moral agent. God says to Adam’s son Cain: “If you do well, you will be exalted; but if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door: its desire is for you, but you can master it!” [20] 20. Gen. 4:7.

So if Jews do not consider any mischief maker did mischief to Adam and Eve, requiring the life for life penalty, the Jew also has no need for a Saviour for die for their sins either. Hence they see only yester ra as the inclination to sin as a necessary inclusion to the overall process of making yester tov choices for God.

Correspondingly, there is no notion that the original constitution of Adam underwent any change in consequence of the fall, so that he transmitted to his descendants a vitiated nature in which the appetites and passions necessarily prevail over reason and virtue, while the will to good is enfeebled or wholly impotent.” [21] 21. Moore, op.cit., p.479.

So Rabbi Apple sees no real rescue plan for sin.

Judaism has thus no doctrine that man after Adam’s time is innately predisposed to evil, nor does it believe that Adam himself – as the prototype of mankind – had an inherently evil nature.

So Rabbi Apple also suggests

Men do sin, and sin is too much a reality to be brushed aside. However, there is a fundamentally optimistic streak in Judaism which proclaims that because man is a rational being he knows that following the good inclination is better for him than it is to succumb to the yetzer hara; and because he recognises that God created him he has a greater yearning towards the Creator than away from Him.

The naturalness of doing good is reinforced by the apparently paradoxical fact that when a person chooses to do evil, he does so not because it is evil but because he perceives it as good. We might question his judgment, regard him as having a warped view of what is good, and reject his probably subjective criteria of goodness – but what he believes is nonetheless that what he is doing is good in some sense.


Rob" So Rabbi Apple teach that man does what he does using his own powers of SELF. Man is naturally doing good, if the man listens to the inclination to do good under human power.
This is a salvation system based on good works, not based on faith in Jesus at all. One can feel sorry for Jews here because they have no messiah and thus cling to the only understanding they have.

On the other hand Messanic Jews have a better view of the former and latter torah, OT and NT.
-------------


D"Then the first commandment was given to man
Gen 2:16 Then Adonai Elohim commanded the man saying, “From all the trees of the garden you are most welcome to eat.
R" That cannot be because the next day after there creation they kept the Sabbath law, written in the royal torah.

Not eating from one tree referring to the oposing elohiym power, came later.

D"Correct – in heaven there is no need for the Law – because God is the only choice
R" Not so Dave

“We can obtain some glimmer of understanding concerning why God allows man to do evil, for only by being free to choose evil can he be free to choose good. If, for example, every time a man tried to stab his fellow the knife became blunt; every time he fired a revolver to harm another the weapon misfired; every time he put his hand into his neighbour’s pocket to steal he could not withdraw it; every time he endeavoured to be cruel to others his designs were miraculously frustrated; then the sheer impossibility of committing evil actions would inevitably propel men in the direction of the good and there would be little or no merit in doing good… Conceivably, God could have created men without freedom of choice but, in the religious view, it is this freedom which is man’s pride and glory, without which he cannot be God-like. God, evidently, does not wish to be served by automata but by freely responding creatures who can reach out for His goodness by the free action of their wills.” [11] 11. Louis Jacobs, We Have Reason to Believe, 1957, pp.49-50.

Rob" So Rabbi Apple teaches that automata is not something God wants from His creatures.


That includes angels, men and higher life forms too.


D"No SIN in heaven (yester tov) – the only choice
R" False Dave, Jews write that for choice to occur both yester ra and tester tov must co-exist. SO both must exist in every creature in heaven, IF you are supporting Jewish views.

D"They are NOT fasle gods in heaven at war with the Creator
R" in another post you said the shedim are gods Dave. The shedim were once in heaven, correct?

D"You deny the ONE TRUE GOD – you have a family of multiple gods
R" How many heart cells do you have Dave? multiple or one? Answer one, at some time in fetal development the trillions of independent hearts willingly forgo their independence and wired themselves as ONE organ made from ONE heart cell. We called this compound unity, the Hebrew word "echad" is correct. One heart cell runs your heart, not multiple at all. Multiple heart cells is called cancer Dave.

D"You include an angel as the god of evil
R" The prince angel sinned. Yet you do not believe Scripture true, but happen to believe fire comes from God, because a human wrote this in Scripture?
I suppose no war in heaven either.

And Jesus never saw the Satanas fall from heaven like lightning?

D"You deny the spirit
R" You can't prove there is a spirit from Scritpure....no even the Father or HS is a spirit.... try proving that to me.

The word "ruwach" means "medium" not a real substance, though is made of media, yes.

D" You deny proportional punishment – Hitler and your neighbor reap the same punishment
R" No they get punishment as they are judged and finally cease to exist. not proportional punishment to some spirit form in hell.

D"You absolutely deny that LIFE LIVES
R" Only elohiym lives, and GOD cannot grant a part of His nature to you to own as stewards. God can gift powers to you to develop as a spirit of your own. A subtle difference.

D"You teach that GOD died
R" For 3 days and 3 nights only, to satisfy laws for sin-offering

D" You deny that the cross was enough for salvation – you must do things as faith practice to maintain your salvation
R" Jesus is a SEED. You have to take the SEED and allow it to grow in you before you are saved. Without fruits, no person is saved, thus you require some faith in Jesus.

You made blanket statements to mock me for what? To elevate yourself? I thought we were discussing Scripture, but you refused to answer the discussing didn't you?

[Dave]

D"There was an age of no law
Rom 5:13 For up until the Torah, sin was in the world; but sin does not count as sin when there is no law.
R" No wonder you get confused, you never read Hebrew, so reading Greek you get stammering idea.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue in Greek, will God speak to this people.

If you want more truth, convert the Greek back to Hebrew, and make the NT align with the OT.

Rom 5:13 For up until the Ceremonial Torah, for sin-offering was in the world; but sin-offering does not count as sin-offering when there is no ceremonial-law.

ABSOLUTE ROBERT NONSENSE – Eve taking a bite – was a SIN – a disobedience – a transgression
Your teaching that sin and death entered the WORLD because Eve did a sacrifice to the Lord – IS ABSOLUTE ERROR

STOP TRYING TO REWRITE SCRIPTURE to fit your doctrine

[Dave]

The royal torah is different to the ceremonial torah, one was placed under the seat of the FATHERS throne, and other placed along side of the Father's throne. Jews never consider them separate, because they do not read James in the NT.

I have been a student of scripture for years – I have asked you to print our your god’s royal law
Why do you refuse?
The commandment NOT to eat of the tree was given in Gen 2
The 10 Commandments were given at Sini

God’s Royal Law that the Jews do not understand – NEED DOCUMENTATION

I notice Rabbi Apple in his article
In Jewish thinking there is no normative doctrine of Original Sin, deriving from the Genesis narrative of Adam’s transgression interpreted as causing his descendants to be morally tainted. There are odd folkloristic suggestions of this kind in Jewish literature, and resentment against Adam for what he did, [19] 19. George Foot Moore, Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian but no doctrinal significance is attached thereto. The Bible does not refer to Adam’s lapse anywhere else, and the rabbinic tradition does not teach that man’s moral constitution was changed by reason of Adam’s actions. Indeed, Genesis itself emphasises that man is a free moral agent. God says to Adam’s son Cain: “If you do well, you will be exalted; but if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door: its desire is for you, but you can master it!” [20] 20. Gen. 4:7.

So if Jews do not consider any mischief maker did mischief to Adam and Eve,
CORRECT – the Jews do not have someone else to blame their sin upon
Eve / Adam / man / mankind / every man / any man – all alike – all the same – all men are sinners

requiring the life for life penalty,
Mortal Death is the penalty - DUH

the Jew also has no need for a Saviour for die for their sins either.
Correct – they are God’s chosen people

(google) What were the 3 parts of God's promise to Abraham?
The covenant between Abraham and God consisted of three separate parts: the promised land. the promise of the descendants. the promise of blessing and redemption.

Correct – All Jews have the promise of salvation
All are saved – by a Divine Pardon – or by purification in proportional punishment – and some get a ‘do over’

Hence they see only yester ra as the inclination to sin as a necessary inclusion to the overall process of - making yester tov choices for God.
(yester ra) is necessary – a commandment even - go forth, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, subdue it – conquer it, have dominion over it

This COMMANDMENT was hard wired into Eve – into Eve’s biology – INSTINCT
Gen 2:17 COMMANDMENT – don’t eat of it = the choice
Eve is hardwired to want it – to desire it – but told don’t eat it

Gen 3:6 Now the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (yester ra)
and that it was a thing of lust for the eyes, (yester ra)
nd that the tree was desirable for imparting wisdom. (yester ra)
So she took of its fruit and she ate. – CHOSE (yester ra) / WORLD – over obedience = SIN
--------------------

Correspondingly, there is no notion that the original constitution of Adam underwent any change in consequence of the fall, …
CORRECT – only 2 things happened
1- LOCATION – Adam and Eve changed location – from paradise / Eden → the WORLD
2- Without the Tree of Life antidote – Adam and Eve grew old and died – just like all biology

Correspondingly, there is no notion that the original constitution of Adam underwent any change in consequence of the fall, so that he transmitted to his descendants a vitiated nature in which the appetites and passions necessarily prevail over reason and virtue, while the will to good is enfeebled or wholly impotent.” [21] 21. Moore, op.cit., p.479.
Correct – Adam and Eve were just like you and me – we all are sinners
NOTHING CHANGED
-----------------------

So Rabbi Apple sees no real rescue plan for sin.
Judaism has thus no doctrine that man after Adam’s time is innately predisposed to evil, nor does it believe that Adam himself – as the prototype of mankind – had an inherently evil nature.

innately predisposed to evil – NO
innately predisposed to (yester ra) selfishness → greedy lust and desire → leads to sin
Correct – Adam and Eve were just like you and me – we all are sinners

So Rabbi Apple also suggests
Men do sin, and sin is too much a reality to be brushed aside. However, there is a fundamentally optimistic streak in Judaism which proclaims that because man is a rational being he knows that following the good inclination is better for him than it is to succumb to the yetzer hara; and because he recognises that God created him he has a greater yearning towards the Creator than away from Him.
YES – Jews are optimistic – because they know – in the end – they will be reunited with God in God’s Kingdom – with the Messiah – the Promise to Abraham

The naturalness of doing good is reinforced by the apparently paradoxical fact that when a person chooses to do evil, he does so not because it is evil but because he perceives it as good. We might question his judgment, regard him as having a warped view of what is good, and reject his probably subjective criteria of goodness – but what he believes is nonetheless that what he is doing is good in some sense.

he does so not because it is evil but because he perceives it as good.
WOW – LOVE IT – what a deep thought
In the WORLD – the generation of wealth = good
In the WORLD – fame and power = good
Eve – thought the fruit would be good

Rob" So Rabbi Apple teach that man does what he does using his own powers of SELF. Man is naturally doing good, if the man listens to the inclination to do good under human power.
This is a salvation system based on good works, not based on faith in Jesus at all.
Correct – Judaism is based on Deeds, works, and Fruit – LAW
Correct – the Jewish after life = a score board – Mitzvah vrs Chata
Correct – every Jew will pay (proportionally) for all his chata
Correct – every Jew will reap the reward (proportionally) for all his Mitzvah
Correct – every Jew is promised a place in the New Heaven and Earth
Correct – every Jew is promised to BE RESTORED to EDEN

This is NOT based on faith in Jesus at all.
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT – all of this is the CONTEXT that Jesus Christ was born into

One can feel sorry for Jews - Agreed
All they have gone through – endured – to bring Jesus Christ to the WORLD

One can feel sorry for Jews here because they have no messiah and thus cling to the only understanding they have.
Why do you deny the New Testament? – yet call yourself a Christian

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Isa 37:31 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:
Isa 37:32 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this.
Isa 37:33 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shields, nor cast a bank against it.

IF a remnant of Jews were not set aside – please explain how the end times unfold without Israel being a nation of Jews in the Holy Lands

One can feel sorry for Jews - Agreed
All they have gone through – endured – to bring Jesus Christ to the WORLD
Have gone through since – and will go through agaian as the focal point of the last great battle

YOUR TURN - WHY DO YOU DENY THE NEW TESTAMENT GOSPEL -  and call yourself a Christian

[Dave]

D"No SIN in heaven (yester tov) – the only choice
R" False Dave, Jews write that for choice to occur both yester ra and tester tov must co-exist.
Correct – and man is the creature that can choose

D"They are NOT fasle gods in heaven at war with the Creator
R" in another post you said the shedim are gods Dave. The shedim were once in heaven, correct?
As soon as the First Archon opened his eyes – and uttered his first thought – he was ejected from heaven into creation
The Beast – is a thing of biology – because he is the serpent

D"You deny the ONE TRUE GOD – you have a family of multiple gods
R" How many heart cells do you have Dave?
Sure – all you have to do is redefine the term – MONO-THIESTIC

D"You include an angel as the god of evil
R" The prince angel sinned. Yet you do not believe Scripture true, but happen to believe fire comes from God, because a human wrote this in Scripture?
Correct – I do not believe in your Ezk 28 two standalone word Roman doctrine
The Beast appeared – and was ejected into physical creation = Entropy
There is only ONE GOD - there is NO OTHER

I suppose no war in heaven either.
So serious – your assumptions is more real than the truth
So serious – your metaphors rewrite scripture to mean some else
So serious – you argue that the New Testament is Gnostic and should not be trusted

And Jesus never saw the Satanas fall from heaven like lightning?
Yes Robert – everyone realizes that the BEAST was ejected from heaven
You say metaphors are more real than scripture- quote them as fact
Then you deny metaphors when you don’t like them
So serious – it is hard to tell what you really mean – because you contradict yourself

D"You deny the spirit
R" You can't prove there is a spirit from Scritpure....no even the Father or HS is a spirit.... try proving that to me.
ENOUGH SAID – keep you faith in biology – maybe the WORLD will save you
Christ – preached in the spirit to the spirts of the dead for 3 days
Why do you deny the New Testament and call yourself a Christian?

D" You deny proportional punishment – Hitler and your neighbor reap the same punishment
R" No they get punishment as they are judged and finally cease to exist. not proportional punishment to some spirit form in hell.
Correct – you teach Hitler receives the same punishment as your neighbor – peaceful restful sleep – to be resurrected then put to death
WHY DO YOU DENY THE NEW TESTAMENT AND TEACH OTHER TO IGNORE IT

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 

Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 

Mat 5:19  Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever keeps and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

2Pe 2:21  For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after learning about it, to turn back from the holy commandment passed on to them.
-----------------

D"You absolutely deny that LIFE LIVES
R" Only elohiym lives, and GOD cannot grant a part of His nature to you to own as stewards.
Now you teach against the promise of eternal life - Christian

D"You teach that GOD died
R" For 3 days and 3 nights only, to satisfy laws for sin-offering
Then how did he preach in the spirit to the spirits of the dead for those 3 days
Explain why you deny the New testament and call yourself a Christian

D" You deny that the cross was enough for salvation – you must do things as faith practice to maintain your salvation
R" Jesus is a SEED. You have to take the SEED and allow it to grow in you before you are saved.
You deny John 3:16 – you just denied that the cross is enough – and you call yourself a Christian

You made blanket statements to mock me for what?
TO EXPOSDE YOU AS THE GAME PLAYER YOU ARE TOYING WITH THE WORD OF GOD FOR SPORT

[Deleted]

RP" Rom 5:13 For up until the Ceremonial Torah, for sin-offering was in the world; but sin-offering does not count as sin-offering when there is no ceremonial-law.

D" ABSOLUTE ROBERT NONSENSE – Eve taking a bite – was a SIN – a disobedience – a transgression
Your teaching that sin and death entered the WORLD because Eve did a sacrifice to the Lord – IS ABSOLUTE ERROR
R" Dave what's the difference between the LAW and the JUDEMENTS of the LAW?

I have been to court and experienced this personally myself, representing my self and answering the affidavits before me. There is a huge difference.

The LAW is public, universal and uphold by the Australian court.

The judgements are secret, inner circle of court, must get paid access and these are the actual cases from which judges judge you.

They are previous cases from which judges follow, unless the case before them is completely brand new, they interpret the LAW.

Consider the judgements

These come from the ROYAL LAW, after humans existed, so the JUDGEMENTS existed.

The royal law is universal and eternal, and the judgements follow from that.

Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

This is a judgement from

Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.


The royal law existed when Sabbath existed, before Man existed, from long before day 6 of Creation.

The judgements can only exist after the ROYAL laws are broken by sinning creatures.

If there is no mischief, there is no need to do the life for life thing the royal law demands.

Hence the ceremonial laws never existed until after SINNING came and thus the royal law was added to with the judgements.

Does this make sense to you?

This is how courts in Australia work.
Simile to how heavenly process work.

--------------------------------next post of Dave-----------------



D"I have been a student of scripture for years – I have asked you to print our your god’s royal law
Why do you refuse?

R"

Jas 2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

James defines his terms "royal torah" nicely above. Don't bag me. Bag the Scriptures if you can.



Rp" So if Jews do not consider any mischief maker did mischief to Adam and Eve,
D" CORRECT – the Jews do not have someone else to blame their sin upon
R" Again Dave you are a poor reader of words, I said "mischief maker did mischief to Adam and Eve," I did not say lay "blame their sin upon some other being".

Cling to what I said, follow what I say, not add tangents to your view.

Jews never consider when Adam sinned there was a "mischief maker who did mischief to Adam and Eve" they do not see this, nor does any religion out on the WWW, only I do.


RP " Correspondingly, there is no notion that the original constitution of Adam underwent any change in consequence of the fall, …
D" CORRECT – only 2 things happened
R" I am glad we agree, I understand the Jewish ways, I just do not go along with it or their theories.


RP" he does so not because it is evil but because he perceives it as good.
D" WOW – LOVE IT – what a deep thought
R" I am glad we agree, , I understand the Jewish ways, I just do not go along their theories.

RP" One can feel sorry for Jews -
D" Agreed

This is NOT based on faith in Jesus at all.

R" Yes they miss so much, I hope the Messanic Jews understand things better?


D"YOUR TURN - WHY DO YOU DENY THE NEW TESTAMENT GOSPEL - and call yourself a Christian
R" I don't deny the NT Dave, I just move the messages back to the OT Hebrew. and read them in the Hebrew light.


--------------------------another post from Dave-----------------


D"As soon as the First Archon opened his eyes – and uttered his first thought – he was ejected from heaven into creation
R" How strange you support writings out side the torah but the torah you do not support.

D"Sure – all you have to do is redefine the term – MONO-THIESTIC
R" no Dave I define the term "ECHAD" correctly.

Why was a Roman Phalanx success in war? Because each member fighting agrees to give up his independence of free will and they fight as one unit, not 16 soldiers, but one soldier with 16 brains.

If you take a heart cell from the organ, it dies, not independent anymore

When you come to Jesus you have to agree to give up free will and independence and become totally following your living using faith in Jesus. Your SELF dies never to return, and this means your old eternal spirit also dies in the baptism, never to be used again as well, assuming the term exists, which in my view doesn't. You cannot take anything of human into heaven, so why / how can you say the "spirit of humans live" is a myth. And your "eternal spirit" has to die in the grave of baptism.


D"Correct – you teach Hitler receives the same punishment as your neighbor – peaceful restful sleep – to be resurrected then put to death
R" This is consistent with a loving God is it not, the punishing happens after the die again the second and final time.


D"Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
R" so I am to read your discussion for you? So this says if your sins are much, you get more punishments? Does Luke really say that?

Lu 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

(the translators add the word "stripes" Dave to the text)


D"TO EXPOSDE YOU AS THE GAME PLAYER YOU ARE TOYING WITH THE WORD OF GOD FOR SPORT
R" Really? Who stopped the detailed discussions, a few posts back? you did , not me.

[Dave]

RP" Rom 5:13 For up until the Ceremonial Torah, for sin-offering was in the world; but sin-offering does not count as sin-offering when there is no ceremonial-law.

D" ABSOLUTE ROBERT NONSENSE – Eve taking a bite – was a SIN – a disobedience – a transgression
Your teaching that sin and death entered the WORLD because Eve did a sacrifice to the Lord – IS ABSOLUTE ERROR
R" Dave what's the difference between the LAW and the JUDEMENTS of the LAW?

ABSOLUTE ROBERT NONSENSE – Eve taking a bite – was a SIN – a disobedience – a transgression
Your teaching that sin and death entered the WORLD because Eve did a sacrifice to the Lord – IS ABSOLUTE ERROR

The royal law existed when Sabbath existed, before Man existed, from long before day 6 of Creation.
Print it out – let’s see it - let’s see the scripture that you say exist

--------------------------------next post of Dave-----------------

D"I have been a student of scripture for years – I have asked you to print our your god’s royal law
Why do you refuse?

R" Jas 2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

James defines his terms "royal torah" nicely above. Don't bag me. Bag the Scriptures if you can.
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself,
------------------------------

Rp" So if Jews do not consider any mischief maker did mischief to Adam and Eve,
D" CORRECT – the Jews do not have someone else to blame their sin upon
R" Again Dave you are a poor reader of words, I said "mischief maker did mischief to Adam and Eve," I did not say lay "blame their sin upon some other being".

Cling to what I said, follow what I say, not add tangents to your view.

Jews never consider when Adam sinned there was a "mischief maker who did mischief to Adam and Eve" they do not see this, nor does any religion out on the WWW, only I do.

So you admit – you are not consistent with mainstream Judaism or Christianity
So you admit – you rewrite scripture to fit your doctrine
Where does your authority come from – who has given you the power to misrepresent scripture?

RP " Correspondingly, there is no notion that the original constitution of Adam underwent any change in consequence of the fall, …
D" CORRECT – only 2 things happened
R" I am glad we agree, I understand the Jewish ways, I just do not go along with it or their theories.

WHY DO YOU FIGHT AGAINST SCRIPTURE

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass.
Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever keeps and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

WHY DO YOU DENY THE WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST – and call yourself a Christian

--------------------------another post from Dave-----------------
D"As soon as the First Archon opened his eyes – and uttered his first thought – he was ejected from heaven into creation
R" How strange you support writings out side the torah but the torah you do not support.

YES – I absolutely depend on scripture outside of the Torah

Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.

Why do you deny the NEW TESTAMENT and teach it should be ignored – and teach others to disregard it

D"Sure – all you have to do is redefine the term – MONO-THIESTIC
R" no Dave I define the term "ECHAD" correctly.

Isa 45:5 I am Adonai—there is no other. Besides Me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not known Me,
Isa 45:6 so they may know, from the rising to the setting of the sun, that there is no one besides Me. I am Adonai—there is no other.
Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.

Why do you deny scripture in favor of Roman doctrine?

34 Bible verses about No Other Is God
bible.knowing-jesus.com › topics › No-Other-Is-...
------------------

D"Correct – you teach Hitler receives the same punishment as your neighbor – peaceful restful sleep – to be resurrected then put to death
R" This is consistent with a loving God is it not,
But not consistent with scripture – precept upon precept, line upon line
------------------------------

D"Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
(the translators add the word "stripes" Dave to the text)

Luk 12:48 ὁ δὲ μὴ γνούς, ποιήσας δὲ ἄξια πληγῶν (G4127), δαρήσεται ὀλίγας. παντὶ δὲ ᾧ ἐδόθη πολύ, πολὺ ζητηθήσεται παρ᾿ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ᾧ παρέθεντο πολύ, περισσότερον αἰτήσουσιν αὐτόν.

G4127 – πληγή - From G4141; a stroke; by implication a wound; figuratively a calamity: - plague, stripe, wound (-ed).

(the translators add the word "stripes" Dave to the text)
NOW you resort to lying to defend your doctrine
GAME PLAYER YOU ARE TOYING WITH THE WORD OF GOD FOR SPORT

[Deleted]

D"ABSOLUTE ROBERT NONSENSE – Eve taking a bite – was a SIN – a disobedience – a transgression
Your teaching that sin and death entered the WORLD because Eve did a sacrifice to the Lord – IS ABSOLUTE ERROR
R" I didn't say that :

When Eve sinned, the opposer did mischief to her womb, and the penalty for mischief is life for life.

There are two sins here, the sinning of Eve, and the sinning of the serpent.

D"Print it out – let’s see it - let’s see the scripture that you say exist
R" Not sure we have the eternal royal law in the original wording of heaven Dave, only a version for mankind after their rescue from Egypt.

Ex 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

The versions is spoken to suit the context of those rescued. "ie Egypt".

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.


I suspect the anointed cherub closest prince angel to God's throne walked up and down among the "stones of fire" is a reference to the eternal LAWS of GOD.

Jos 7:25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

Same poetry similes used here regarding the sins of Achan, they stoned him with stones of fire.

So what is written on these stones of fire, is something like the ten words that was written twice by the finger of God for Moses.


D"YES – I absolutely depend on scripture outside of the Torah
R" YES – I absolutely depend on scripture inside of the Torah

We have two differences of authority . No wonder we have different world views.


D"Why do you deny the NEW TESTAMENT and teach it should be ignored – and teach others to disregard it
R" You make up stuff again.


D"NOW you resort to lying to defend your doctrine
GAME PLAYER YOU ARE TOYING WITH THE WORD OF GOD FOR SPORT
R"
Lu 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few {stripes}. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (KJV)

48 o de mh gnouV poihsaV de axia plhgwn (G4127)darhsetai oligaV panti de w edoqh polu polu zhthqhsetai par autou kai w pareqento polu perissoteron aithsousin auton (TR)

Dave you even admit the word plhgwn (G4127) is written once , but I said the word "stripes" in the KJV is ADDED to twice.

These passage is hard to fathom, and you are adding and twisting a hard text to suit your point of view. I generally leave hard texts alone and focus on the more easier ones.

Shalom