Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2022 15:52:40 GMT -5
Greetings Dave
In your verses you supplied, you speak of a Divine Being giving us/granting us "eternal life" or as I translate "ongoing living".
This is NOT the same idea as defending your theme"
There is an ethereal eternal spirit (spark) within mankind we call our own.
These themes are totally unrelated.
In the theme of granting us ongoing living, GOD need only grant us access to the tree of life, to allow humans to experience ongoing living, this is the same process as the original creation, when God declared after Adam sinned, they could eat of the tree of life and still have ongoing living, despite being sinners, so God denied them access to the tree of life.
Than you present another totally different theme:
MY VIEW – Life Lives – Eternal Life – an ethereal creation on Day 1 – a full host of heaven
Rob has to read between to lines because your discussion is way too brief, and I cannot see your view hardly at all.
You present the idea that GOD created an "an ethereal creation on Day 1 – a full host of heaven"
This suggests to me that every living soul was granted an ethereal eternal spirit from day one, that sat around awaiting for its biological fetus body to show up before entering the body as the living soul. Can you care to explain this idea of yours, and especially provide Moses torah for this idea?
Questions: Why is it necessary to provide each biological body with an 'ethereal eternal spirit (spark) '?
------------------------------------------------------------
Rp 1) If humans have some eternal spark in us, we call our own,
why did Jesus have to die?
D" To atone for our sins – DUH
To open the door to the Divine Pardon – DUH
To prove to all that – Life Lives – because of His Resurrection
R" The sinning process cannot spoil the 'ethereal eternal spirit (spark) ' can it?
so this death of Jesus does not need to atone anything about the ethereal eternal spirit (spark) does it?
The biology body comes with inherent degrading RA in it already, so I do not understand any need for Jesus to restore this matter, as it is inherently degrading without any help from cognitive sinning?
DO you agree with my Gnostic assessment of your theory?
D" To open the door to the Divine Pardon – DUH
R" so the (spark) chooses to sin, is that it? OK so why can't the (spark) just repent, and all is well again? The (spark) is not permanently damaged when it sins is it? It does not lose it's ethereal eternal nature does it? So what is there to atone?
DO you agree with my Gnostic assessment of your theory?
D" To prove to all that – Life Lives – because of His Resurrection
If GOD knows the 'ethereal eternal spirit (spark) ' is eternal and thus lives forever, why prove "life lives" after moral death?
I do not see the reason for "mortal death" of the ethereal eternal spirit (spark) unless of course the (spark) refuses to repent.
One problem with your answers is they have no backing to the moral laws of GOD, ie judgements, so please provide a law that backs up your answers. I support the idea that GOD runs his worlds by natural and moral laws, that a eternal for all living things, including GOD to obey and follow.
-----------------------------------------
"R" Thank you for writing about what the ethereal eternal spirit (spark) is all, how it is created from before God started on creating our world from matter.
Now please show from Moses torah that another creation for the ethereal eternal spirit (spark) took place BEFORE the physical creation of our world using matter.
You seem to speak of two creations for earth, (1) ethereal eternal spirit (spark) creation, not using matter.
AND
(2) Creation of our world using matter.
Please discuss my Gnostic assessment of your theory?
RP" 2) This eternal spirit you claim is us, can it morally sin outside of the body?
D" Outside of the body we would be in the presence of God
R" Yes I gather that, but you didn't answer the question,
Outside of the body, in the presence of GOD can the (spark) morally sin?
RP " Can it talk outside of the body?
D" Moses and Elijah were conversing with Christ in the transfigurateion
R" Moses and Elijah spoke to Jesus, witnessed by humans, and the humans saw them in bodies? Is this true for you?
When Jesus was raised and appeared to the disciples, Jesus appeared in the original old body he died in, not as an ethereal spirit, and NOT with a brand new ethereal body either?
RP" 3) Why is this eternal spirit placed back into bodies in the second resurrection and judged and the body and the eternal spirit and it's body thrown into a Lake of Fire?
Why is this eternal spirit placed back into bodies?
D"1- It will not be as you are now
1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
2- No flesh in heaven – no biology in heaven
1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.
R" These answers do not answer my question,
1 Cor 15:50 refers to the degraded body we currently have, cannot enter into heaven?
Why? Because it has RA that's why. Not perfect, that's why? corrupted DNA that's why.
But in your Gnostic view you have GOD creating a material body for Adam with RA already in it, naturally decaying DNA? You are now opposing your own theory?
If God cannot tolerate RA in a biological body, why did He create such bodies with RA naturally in them, in the first place?
I see your Gnostic theory is shot to pieces again?
Please explain.
You have assumed no biology is allowed in heaven, but Jesus is in heaven with the same body he died in, and He ate bread and fish in front of the disciples, so here is one proof of a biological body in heaven, but this body, though with scars, has no traces of corrupted DNA in it, hence is a perfect, though scarred body. It was scarred by SIN, but has no affects of SIN inside the body/
D" Rising from Proportional Punishment to the First Resurrection has nothing to do with the body of flesh
R" I see you wrote this, but its a word salad, please explain more.
Proportional Punishment requires the spirit spark to feel punishment outside of the body, but you did not allude to that question before? and to speak outside of the body???
D"All of this happens in heaven – no flesh in heaven – changed – different – no longer corporeal but ethereal
R" There are biological bodies in heaven, Jesus is one fully written about in the torah. Please re-examine the tenant claims of your Gnostic theory?
RP" You do have spirits extinguished don't you? How can it be eternal than?
D" Because they committed suicide – by choosing world over God and – world passes away
R" so why is the spark placed back into the same biological body, and BOTH disposed on in the Lake of Fire, when the spark could have repented as a voice to GOD and receive a pardon? I do not see why the wicked unrepenting spark has to enter the body before it is finally disposed of?
D"You can call it Gnostic if you you want – but all this is 100% scripture
R" If it is scripture, than is should be fully capable of examined without falling apart.
D"All of this is basic Judaism - All of this is the Christianiity I have always grown up within - it is Presbyterian - it is mainsteam Christianity
R" Hmm?
Summary:
I have not attacked your view, and I ask you answer the questions I raised properly, because the view you raise has holes in it.
SHalom
In your verses you supplied, you speak of a Divine Being giving us/granting us "eternal life" or as I translate "ongoing living".
This is NOT the same idea as defending your theme"
There is an ethereal eternal spirit (spark) within mankind we call our own.
These themes are totally unrelated.
In the theme of granting us ongoing living, GOD need only grant us access to the tree of life, to allow humans to experience ongoing living, this is the same process as the original creation, when God declared after Adam sinned, they could eat of the tree of life and still have ongoing living, despite being sinners, so God denied them access to the tree of life.
Than you present another totally different theme:
MY VIEW – Life Lives – Eternal Life – an ethereal creation on Day 1 – a full host of heaven
Rob has to read between to lines because your discussion is way too brief, and I cannot see your view hardly at all.
You present the idea that GOD created an "an ethereal creation on Day 1 – a full host of heaven"
This suggests to me that every living soul was granted an ethereal eternal spirit from day one, that sat around awaiting for its biological fetus body to show up before entering the body as the living soul. Can you care to explain this idea of yours, and especially provide Moses torah for this idea?
Questions: Why is it necessary to provide each biological body with an 'ethereal eternal spirit (spark) '?
------------------------------------------------------------
Rp 1) If humans have some eternal spark in us, we call our own,
why did Jesus have to die?
D" To atone for our sins – DUH
To open the door to the Divine Pardon – DUH
To prove to all that – Life Lives – because of His Resurrection
R" The sinning process cannot spoil the 'ethereal eternal spirit (spark) ' can it?
so this death of Jesus does not need to atone anything about the ethereal eternal spirit (spark) does it?
The biology body comes with inherent degrading RA in it already, so I do not understand any need for Jesus to restore this matter, as it is inherently degrading without any help from cognitive sinning?
DO you agree with my Gnostic assessment of your theory?
D" To open the door to the Divine Pardon – DUH
R" so the (spark) chooses to sin, is that it? OK so why can't the (spark) just repent, and all is well again? The (spark) is not permanently damaged when it sins is it? It does not lose it's ethereal eternal nature does it? So what is there to atone?
DO you agree with my Gnostic assessment of your theory?
D" To prove to all that – Life Lives – because of His Resurrection
If GOD knows the 'ethereal eternal spirit (spark) ' is eternal and thus lives forever, why prove "life lives" after moral death?
I do not see the reason for "mortal death" of the ethereal eternal spirit (spark) unless of course the (spark) refuses to repent.
One problem with your answers is they have no backing to the moral laws of GOD, ie judgements, so please provide a law that backs up your answers. I support the idea that GOD runs his worlds by natural and moral laws, that a eternal for all living things, including GOD to obey and follow.
-----------------------------------------
"R" Thank you for writing about what the ethereal eternal spirit (spark) is all, how it is created from before God started on creating our world from matter.
Now please show from Moses torah that another creation for the ethereal eternal spirit (spark) took place BEFORE the physical creation of our world using matter.
You seem to speak of two creations for earth, (1) ethereal eternal spirit (spark) creation, not using matter.
AND
(2) Creation of our world using matter.
Please discuss my Gnostic assessment of your theory?
RP" 2) This eternal spirit you claim is us, can it morally sin outside of the body?
D" Outside of the body we would be in the presence of God
R" Yes I gather that, but you didn't answer the question,
Outside of the body, in the presence of GOD can the (spark) morally sin?
RP " Can it talk outside of the body?
D" Moses and Elijah were conversing with Christ in the transfigurateion
R" Moses and Elijah spoke to Jesus, witnessed by humans, and the humans saw them in bodies? Is this true for you?
When Jesus was raised and appeared to the disciples, Jesus appeared in the original old body he died in, not as an ethereal spirit, and NOT with a brand new ethereal body either?
RP" 3) Why is this eternal spirit placed back into bodies in the second resurrection and judged and the body and the eternal spirit and it's body thrown into a Lake of Fire?
Why is this eternal spirit placed back into bodies?
D"1- It will not be as you are now
1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
2- No flesh in heaven – no biology in heaven
1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.
R" These answers do not answer my question,
1 Cor 15:50 refers to the degraded body we currently have, cannot enter into heaven?
Why? Because it has RA that's why. Not perfect, that's why? corrupted DNA that's why.
But in your Gnostic view you have GOD creating a material body for Adam with RA already in it, naturally decaying DNA? You are now opposing your own theory?
If God cannot tolerate RA in a biological body, why did He create such bodies with RA naturally in them, in the first place?
I see your Gnostic theory is shot to pieces again?
Please explain.
You have assumed no biology is allowed in heaven, but Jesus is in heaven with the same body he died in, and He ate bread and fish in front of the disciples, so here is one proof of a biological body in heaven, but this body, though with scars, has no traces of corrupted DNA in it, hence is a perfect, though scarred body. It was scarred by SIN, but has no affects of SIN inside the body/
D" Rising from Proportional Punishment to the First Resurrection has nothing to do with the body of flesh
R" I see you wrote this, but its a word salad, please explain more.
Proportional Punishment requires the spirit spark to feel punishment outside of the body, but you did not allude to that question before? and to speak outside of the body???
D"All of this happens in heaven – no flesh in heaven – changed – different – no longer corporeal but ethereal
R" There are biological bodies in heaven, Jesus is one fully written about in the torah. Please re-examine the tenant claims of your Gnostic theory?
RP" You do have spirits extinguished don't you? How can it be eternal than?
D" Because they committed suicide – by choosing world over God and – world passes away
R" so why is the spark placed back into the same biological body, and BOTH disposed on in the Lake of Fire, when the spark could have repented as a voice to GOD and receive a pardon? I do not see why the wicked unrepenting spark has to enter the body before it is finally disposed of?
D"You can call it Gnostic if you you want – but all this is 100% scripture
R" If it is scripture, than is should be fully capable of examined without falling apart.
D"All of this is basic Judaism - All of this is the Christianiity I have always grown up within - it is Presbyterian - it is mainsteam Christianity
R" Hmm?
Summary:
I have not attacked your view, and I ask you answer the questions I raised properly, because the view you raise has holes in it.
SHalom