(yester ra) - YEẒER HA-RA'

[Dave]

The Beast = 100% (yester ra) SELFISH SELF – lust – desire – greed – want
Lust – in itself is NOT a sin – go forth and reproduce is the commandment – survival of the species
Desire – greed – want – in themselves are not sin – it is the commandment to go forth and be successful

(yester ra) SELFISH SELF – lust – desire – greed – want is NOT a sin – it is the necessary driving force that causes man to grow – progress – build – achieve – learn technology – uses technology

The commandment to man = go forth be fruitful and multiple + dominate

(yester ra) – lust – desire – greed – and want → LEADS to sin

jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10194-lust
YEẒER HA-RA':
(Redirected from LUST.)

Rise of the Idea.
Evil inclination or impulse, popularly identified with the lusts of the flesh. The idea is derived from Gen. viii. 21: "the imagination of the heart of man is evil from his youth." Yet from the use of the two "yods" in Gen. ii. 7, the Rabbis deduced that there are in man two Yeẓarim: the good (Yeẓer Ṭob) and the evil (Ber. 61a).
Man = (yester tov) + (yester ra)

Cain defended himself before God for having slain Abel by arguing that God had implanted in him the Yeẓer ha-Ra'(Tan., Bereshit, 25 [ed. Buber, p. 10]). "It lies at the door of the heart like a fly" (Ber. 61a; comp. Beelzebub).

Anger inspired by jealousy - the desire to be alpha – the lust for recognition and praise
I would not have claimed Cain argued – BUT - YES – all (yester ra)

Yet in a way the Yeẓer ha-Ra', like all things which God made (Gen. i. 31), is good. Without it, for example, a man would never marry, beget, build a house, or trade (Gen. R. ix. 9). Therefore, man is enjoined to love God with both the Yeẓarim implied in "with all thy heart" of the Shema' (Sifre, Deut. 32 [ed. Friedmann, p. 73a]).

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The commandment = reproduce + dominate = (yester ra) the desire – lust – want – to achieve and build and dominate - (yester ra)

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

It would appear that the Yeẓer Ṭob comes with reflection, and at the age of bar miẓwah or confirmation, because it is said to be thirteen years younger than the Yeẓer ha-Ra', which is an inborn impulse (Eccl. R. ix. 14).

BINGO – THIS IS THE BIGGEST WITHIN CHRISTIANITY – THE ARIAN CONTROVERSY → TRINITY

(google) What is the heresy of the Arians?
Arianism is a fourth‐century heresy, which affirmed Christ to be divine, but not in the same full sense in which God the Father is divine. Traditional Trinitarianism, with its classical expression in the Nicene Creed, emerged out of controversy with Arianism and defined Christ as being of one substance with the Father.
Arain taught – Jesus was born a man – and did not become divine until John the Baptist baptized Him with the Holy Spirit
Everyone else taught – Jesus existed from the beginning – Jesus Christ was born divine – and is/was always divine
The controversy between 2 Egyptians – resulted in the Nicaean Creed = God and Christ = one substance → Trinity

IN JUDAISM – as with the Amish – as with the Mennonite – as with basic Presbyterianism
Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Children are not held accountable – until they stand up and prove they know and accept the LAW
For Jews – this = Bar Mitzvah
with basic Presbyterianism = you public declaration of baptism
2014 my girls were not allowed to take part in communion because they had not been baptized yet
With the Amish – it is marrage

If you are a Messianic Jew – you have no problem arguing that Jesus was Bar Mitzvah at age 12

Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
Luk 2:43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
Luk 2:44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
Luk 2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

My belief – basic Christian belief – basic Presbyterian
Christ existed from the very beginning because Christ = God = Trinity
Jesus = flesh = biology = vehicle – complete with (yester ra) – proven in the Garden when he asked for the cup to pass from him – (a moment of self-preservation – by the flesh)
BUT - Christ = God – and God’s Will be Done!
Jesus Christ = (Jesus / flesh / (yester ra) – Son of Man) + (Christ – God incarnate = (yester tov? –or- TOV)

God incarnate = the only begotten Son

The Yeẓer Ṭob delivers the citadel of the body from the Yeẓer ha-Ra' by means of temperance and good works (Ned. 32b). The "little city" of Eccl. ix. 14, 15 is interpreted by the Targum and Eccl. R. (ad loc.) as the kingdom of the heart, and the "great king" who comes against it as the Yeẓer ha-Ra'.

According to the Rabbis, the Yeẓer ha-Ra' has seven different epithets in the Bible: evil (Gen. viii. 21); uncircumcised (Deut. x. 16); unclean (Ps. li. 12); the enemy (Prov. xxv. 21); stumbling-block (Isa. lvii. 14); stone (Ezek. xxxvi. 26); and hidden (Joel ii. 20).

The greater the man the greater his Yeẓer ha-Ra';
Absolutely agree
Donald Trump fighting against the establishment
Elon Mush single handedly trying to change the world
Your idol Putin crushing free speech – free information – and crushing other nations against their will – causing the displacement of 2 million people and the whole sale murder and destruction of private property

Also - The greater the criminal the greater his Yeẓer ha-Ra';
Also - The greater the sinner the greater his Yeẓer ha-Ra';

Also - The greater the EVANGELIST the greater his Yeẓer ha-Ra';

and it is among the four things which God regretted to have created (Suk. 52a, b). It is identified with Satan and with the angel of death (B. B. 16a; comp. Maimonides, "Moreh," ii. 12, iii. 22). Against the Yeẓer ha-Ra' the Torah is the great antidote (Suk. 52b; Ḳid. 30b; Ab. R. N. 16). The Yeẓer ha-Ra' grows with a man, as is deduced from the parable in II Sam. xii. 4. At first it is a mere traveler; then it becomes a guest; and at last it is the man himself (Suk. 52b). Yet the heart of man contains both the Yeẓer ha-Ra' and the Yeẓer Ṭob, as is deduced by Midrash Tehillim from Ps. ix.

Identified with satan = focusing upon world – power – wealth – and fame - INSTEAD of God
(yester ra) grows – when our greed / lust / desire is satisfied – we just want more
How much is enough the poor ask the greedy
Absolute power = corrupts absolutley

Characteristics.
"Yeẓer ha-Ra'" does not refer exclusively to the body; this can be inferred from its close association with the Yeẓer Ṭob. It undoubtedly leads to sensual sins with great power; hence both Akiba and Meïr were saved from its influence only by heavenly intercession (Ḳid. 81a).

It was to avoid the temptations of the Yeẓer ha-Ra' that women were ordered to take separate seats in the galleries of synagogues (Suk. 51b).

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Gnostic - When the wanton women see a male sitting alone, they leap down on him and play with him and defile him. So also the lecherous men, when they see a beautiful woman sitting alone, they persuade her and compel her, wishing to defile her. But if they see the man and his wife sitting beside one another, the female cannot come into the man, nor can the male come into the woman. So if the image and the angel are united with one another, neither can any venture to go into the man or the woman.

He who comes out of the world, and so can no longer be detained on the grounds that he was in the world, evidently is above the desire of the [...] (flesh / body / world)  and fear. - Gospel of Phillip

Revenge and avarice are also given as the outcome of the Yeẓer ha-Ra' (Sifre, Deut. 33 [ed. Friedmann, p. 74a]);

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

and anger is another of its manifestations. Ps. lxxxi. 10 (A. V. 9) is interpreted as referring to the Yeẓer to whose influence one should not yield (Shab. 105b),

Jas 1:19 Know this, my dear brothers and sisters: let every person be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger—
Jas 1:20 for human anger doesn’t produce the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 So put away all moral filth and excess of evil and receive with humility the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

submission being, therefore, compared to idolatry (Yer. Ned. 41b). It is with reference to anger that he is called mighty who overcomes his Yeẓer ha-Ra' (Ab. iv. 2).

Joh 8:43 Why don’t you understand My speech? Because you’re not able to hear My word!
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks lies he is just being himself—for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Vanity is still another form in which the Yeẓer ha-Ra' displays itself. When the Yeẓer sees a conceited man it says: "He is mine" (Gen. R. xxii. 13).

(google) What kind of sin is vanity?
Pride = In Christian teachings, vanity is an example of pride, one of the seven deadly sins.

The Yeẓer ha-Ra' belongs only to this world, and does not exist in angels or other higher beings (Lev. R. xxvi.). It is for this reason that there is no eating or drinking, procreation or barter, envy or hatred, in the world to come (Ber. 17a; comp. Mark xii. 25, and synoptic parallels).

YES – it is inherent – it is a by-product of physical reality – it comes with flesh/biology
NO – it does not exist in angels – they were created to serve and praise – and that is what they do

In a discussion between Rabbi and the emperor Antoninus, the latter contends that the Yeẓer ha-Ra' comes to man at birth, and not before, and Rabbi agrees (Sanh. 91b).

YES – comes with birth of flesh/biology – because it is inherent to biology – because it is the commandment from God to all biology – Self-preservation and survival of the species + man is also to dominate

All the sportive deviltry of young children is attributed to the Yeẓer ha-Ra' (Eccl. R. iv. 13). The Yeẓer ha-Ra' was not due to man, but to God as the Creator of all;

YES – if it exist – God created it – God commanded it – go forth be fruitful and multiply and dominate

but man is responsible for yielding to its influence,

YES – man is the creature that can choose

since he, as has been seen above, is able to put it to a good use. Hence the Yeẓer ha-Ra' is placed on a level with the woman and the child: the left hand should reject it, while the right hand draws it near (Soṭah 47a; Sanh. 107b).

OH NO - NOT RIGHT HAND / LEFT HAND

Under the Second Temple the Yeẓer ha-Ra' continued to exist because needed in the world.

Needed to – go forth and multiple and dominate

The Rabbis interpret Neh. ix. 4 as referring to the call of the people: "Wo, wo, it is the Yeẓer ha-Ra'. He destroyed the sanctuary, killed the righteous, drove the Israelites out of their land, and still dances among us. Why was he given unto us? Only that we may receive reward for conquering him." The Israelites are then reported to have got rid of the Yeẓer of idolatry and of the grosser forms of unchastity, but found it necessary to preserve the Yeẓer ha-Ra' lest the world should come to an end (Yoma 69b; comp. Sanh. 64a). It has been conjectured by Taylor that the clause in the Lord's Prayer, "Deliver us from evil," is probably "Deliver us from the evil Yeẓer" ("Sayings of the Jewish Fathers," pp. 128-130, 186-192).

WHAT– the Jewish Encyclopedia using the agl/NT as validation

Personification.
There is a tendency to give personality and separate activity to the Yeẓer, as in the case of the angel of death and of Satan, with each of whom, indeed, it is identified (B. B. 16a). Objections to the Law which in Sifra 86a are attributed to the Yeẓer are in Yoma 67b attributed to Satan. According to R. Jonathan, the Yeẓer, like Satan, misleads man in this world, and testifies against him in the world to come (Suk. 52b).

YES – (yester ra) leads man to sin – and our guilt testifies of our sin
Satan – misleads – deceives – sidetracks mand to be focused upon the WORLD – NOT the Holy Spirit

Hence in the prayers one asks to be delivered "from evil man and from evil act, from evil Yeẓer, from evil companion, from evil neighbor, and from Satan" (Ber. 16b). Here, however, the Yeẓer is clearly distinguished from Satan.

YES – (yester ra) is an attitude NOT possession by satan who rules us

On other occasions it is made exactly parallel to sin. Thus, in Gen. R. xxii. 11 the parable of II Sam. xii. 4 is applied to sin, though elsewhere it is applied to the Yeẓer (see above). Similarly, Akiba interprets Isa. v. 18 asapplying to sin, while Rab Ashi applies it to the Yeẓer (Suk. 52a). "At the beginning they are like the thread of the spinning web, at the end like a cart rope." The connection of the Yeẓer with habit is exactly parallel to the growth of sin through habit. Man's Yeẓer overpowers him every day (Ḳid. 30b). At first it befools him; then it dwells in him (comp. Hos. iv. 12, v. 4). So too Ps. xxxvi. 2, "sin speaks to the wicked," is applied to the Yeẓer ha-Ra' (Ab. R. N. 32). In the same passage all men are divided into three classes: the righteous, under the rule of the Yeẓer Ṭob; the wicked, under the rule of the Yeẓer ha-Ra'; and the middle class, ruled now by one, now by the other. According to others, there are only two classes: the righteous with the good Yeẓer; and the wicked, who submit to the evil Yeẓer (Eccl. R. iv. 15, 16). The first part of Eccl. xi. 9 is said to relate to the joy of youth derived from the Yeẓer ha-Ra'; the latter part indicates that God will bring all transgressors under judgment to the Yeẓer Ṭob (Shab. 63a).

The Law the Antidote.
Just as iron can be made into all sorts of vessels if cast into the fire, so one can make the Yeẓer ha-Ra' useful by words of the Law; for it is learned from Prov. xxv. 21 that "if thine enemy be hungry [that is, "when the Yeẓer ha-Ra' prompts thee"] give him bread to eat" (i.e., bread of the Law; Pesiḳ., ed. Buber, 80b). Both Yeẓarim are to be utilized; similarly a man having two oxen, one meant for plowing and the other not, puts the yoke upon both. The promise of Gen. iv. 7 is applied to the Yeẓer ha-Ra'(Ḳid. 30b). There is a contrast of strength between the two Yeẓarim; hence, "Blessed is he that considereth the poor" (Ps. xli. 2) is applied to him who makes the poor and weak Yeẓer Ṭob rule over the Yeẓer ha-Ra' (Lev. R. xxxiv.). Though the latter is seemingly so powerful, resistance easily overcomes it, as Abraham found after it had brought about the Flood and the dispersion of the nations (Gen. xxii. 12). If a man find that the Yeẓer ha-Ra' is too strong for him, he should go to a place where he is not known, and not profane the name of heaven openly (Ḥag. 16a). The Law is like a plaster to the wound made by the Yeẓer ha-Ra'; if the plaster is taken away, an evil ulcer will come forth (Ḳid. 30b). Or, again, the Law will wear away the Yeẓer as water wears away stone (Suk. 52b). As the Law is called a stone (Ex. xxiv. 12), and the Yeẓer ha-Ra' also is called a stone (ib. xxxvi. 26), let one stone guard the other stone (Cant. R. vi. 11). The stone of Gen. xxix. 2 is also compared to the Yeẓer ha-Ra': as the stone is rolled away from the mouth of the well, so the Yeẓer ha-Ra' departs when men go into the synagogue to drink of the Law (Gen. R. lxx. 8); hence, the night prayer said in connection with the "Shema'" includes the clause "let not the Yeẓer ha-Ra' rule in me" (Ber. 60b).

God will finally destroy the Yeẓer ha-Ra', as is promised in Ezek. xxxvi. 26. Yet to the righteous who have struggled against it, it will appear like a high mountain; but to the wicked, like a hair (Suk. 52a). It is because the Yeẓer ha-Ra' anticipates this final punishment that it brings man to destruction (Ab. R. N. 16). Meanwhile, like a stone (see above), it gradually crumbles away until it no longer forms a stumbling-block.

Rise of the Idea.
While the expression "yeẓer" is used both in Deut. xxxi. 21 and in Isa. xxvi. 3 for the disposition or mind, "heart" or "evil heart" usually takes its place in Biblical theology as the seat and power of temptation and sin in man. The first definitive passage in which the term occurs is in the lately recovered Hebrew text of Ecclus. (Sirach) xv. 14: "God created man from the beginning . . . and gave him into the hand of his Yeẓer." And in vi. 22 (Heb.) man is compared to the fruit of a tree, while his thoughts are according to his Yeẓer. So, too, the "wicked heart" referred to in Ezra iv. 18 is analogous to the Yeẓer ha-Ra' in being offset by the Law and in not having power to overcome the Law, and also because God will ultimately remove it. This is an approach to the dualism of Paul (Rom. vii. 7-24)

Conclusion
Man exist as a duality of nature = (yester ra) - inherent to physical creation - a by-product of biology – a commandment from God to all biology – to go forth be fruitful and multiply

Man is special – he is to – go forth be fruitful and multiply + dominate

(yester ra) is NOT a sin – but it leads to sin

God put you in the WORLD – and gave you survival skills – those same survival skills leads to sin

Man is also spirit from heaven – Gen 2:7 – gifted with the pre-knowledge of God and the Torah – (yester tov) – it serves as our conscious – the part of us that knows better –

Man = (yester tov – spirit) + (yester ra – biology)

This is why man is the only creature that can choose

[Dave]

Jul 10, 2022 5:08:58 GMT -5 @robertt said:

D" YEẒER HA-RA':
(Redirected from LUST.)
By: Executive Committee of the Editorial Board., Joseph Jacobs
Table of Contents
Characteristics.
Personification.
The Law the Antidote.
Rise of the Idea.
Evil inclination or impulse, popularly identified with the lusts of the flesh. The idea is derived from Gen. viii. 21: "the imagination of the heart of man is evil from his youth." Yet from the use of the two "yods" in Gen. ii. 7, the Rabbis deduced that there are in man two Yeẓarim: the good (Yeẓer Ṭob) and the evil (Ber. 61a). Cain defended himself before God for having slain Abel by arguing that God had implanted in him the Yeẓer ha-Ra'(Tan., Bereshit, 25 [ed. Buber, p. 10]). "It lies at the door of the heart like a fly" (Ber. 61a; comp. Beelzebub).

R" Talk about word games. and word letters, how does two yods suggest a doctrine?
Correct – your claim that the Jews do not know and understand their own language – scripture - theology - demonology – or culture

D. "It lies at the door of the heart like a fly" (Ber. 61a;
R" The torah does not say that.

1Pe 5:8 Stay alert! Watch out! Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, searching for someone to devour.

Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

R" Talk about word games.
Correct – your claim that the Jews do not know and understand their own language – scripture - theology - demonology – or culture
But – I don't understand why you deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ of the agl/NT

Total disregard for the Hebrew word chataah.
D"Hence in the prayers one asks to be delivered "from evil man and from evil act, from evil Yeẓer, from evil companion, from evil neighbor, and from Satan" (Ber. 16b). Here, however, the Yeẓer is clearly distinguished from Satan. On other occasions it is made exactly parallel to sin.
R" Personification and the mention of Satan as a parallel to yester RA, only adds more confusion to the Jewish theories.

Your link is not a detailed study, nor convincing, more like a jumbled pile of quotes thrown together.
Your probably right – we are attempting to discuss the depths of Jewish Theology
you are too intelligent to understand
----------------------

D"IF IT EXIST GOD MADE IT – as is – no changes
R" So SIN and SINNING Humans exist, they must have been created this way, no changes allowed, no changes in the human form either.
CORRECT – Eve was made with the ability to sin
CORRECT – Eve was made with the ability to choose
IF EVE did NOT have the ability to choose to disobey – how could she choose it?

So according to Dave SIN is something created by God, since sinning exists.
Correct – the option to sin was the gift of Free Will to man

You are denying Scripture, it says God is not mocked, a person reaps what he sows.
That implies the dysfunction one does is his own doing, not God, as you imply.
CORRECT – the sin one chooses to do is your choice – no one forces you to sin – no one rules your behavior / choices – except you
STOP TRYING TO BLAME satan for you sin = you chose it all by yourself

Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
You neglect and deny Scripture.

I am just amazed that you have never read or understood the Gospel of the agl/NT
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne, and the One seated on it. The earth and heaven fled from His presence, but no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne. The books were opened, and another book was opened—the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what was written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Sheol gave up the dead in them. Then they were each judged, each one of them, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Sheol were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You deny there is an opposing elohiym power against the Father.
Absolutely – Reject the idea of 2 equivalent gods face to face opposing one another in heaven
Absolutely – the archon are used by God in the Contest of Gen 3:13-20
Absolutely – they were made by Him for Him – Col 1:16

You deny this opposing power is a sinning power.
The archon tempt – lead you to sin – they cannot force you or rule you
The choice is always – yours and your alone
------------------------------------

I ran into a messanic Jew yesterday at Sabbath. First time I have ever met a Messanic Jew before even a SDA one at that.
She told me many things about the Jewish Kabbalah and why they do not follow the torah as much as they should, but don't.
DUH – if she is a messianic Jew she accepts the New Testament – The LAW of the Torah faids

She also understood yester ra and the problem Jews have doing away with sinning and the influence of the Hebrew opposer Hey-satan.
DUH – common knowledge for anyone who is truly interested

I also asked her about Amanuh, even the spelling of the word, (not emanuh) and why they insist the word only means to "trust". She says I go deep into the Hebrew, and notes how many Jews are influenced by other writings. We spoke of the 5 commentaries recorded by the midrash and we also talked about duality and the aspects of the ruwach, nashamah and the nephesh. She is a devoted SDA person, and nothing you have written about Jewish thought is correct

GOOD – now you have another SDA member to worship your satan god with you

Edit upon re-read
R" Personification and the mention of Satan as a parallel to yester RA, only adds more confusion to the Jewish theories.

CORRECTION - it proves that Judaism is more Christian then you are willing to admit
This is our inner struggel between (yester ra) and (yester tov)
It is the flesh - that gets on our way - desires, lust, wants, of the flesh

Rom 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Torah. For I would not have known about coveting if the Torah had not said, “You shall not covet.” 
Rom 7:8  But sin, taking an opportunity, worked in me through the commandment all kinds of coveting. For apart from the Torah, sin is dead. 
Rom 7:9  Once I was alive apart from the Torah; but when the commandment came, sin came to life 
Rom 7:10  and I died. The commandment meant for life was found to cause death. 
Rom 7:11  Sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 
Rom 7:12  So then, the Torah is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 
Rom 7:13  Therefore did that which is good become death to me? May it never be! Rather it was sin working death in me—through that which is good—so that sin might be shown to be sin, and that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 
Rom 7:14  For we know that the Torah is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold to sin. 
Rom 7:15  For I do not understand what I am doing—for what I do not want, this I practice; but what I hate, this I do. 
Rom 7:16  But if I do what I do not want to do, then I agree with the Torah—that it is good. 
Rom 7:17  So now it is no longer I doing it, but sin dwelling in me. 
Rom 7:18  For I know that nothing good dwells in me—that is, in my flesh. For to will is present in me, but to do the good is not. 
Rom 7:19  For the good that I want, I do not do; but the evil that I do not want, this I practice. 
Rom 7:20  But if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I doing it, but sin that dwells in me. 
Rom 7:21  So I find the principle—that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the Torah of God with respect to the inner man, 
Rom 7:23  but I see a different law in my body parts, battling against the law of my mind and bringing me into bondage under the law of sin which is in my body parts. 
Rom 7:24  Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 
Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God—it is through Messiah Yeshua our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself serve the Torah of God; but with my flesh, I serve the law of sin. 

This is our inner struggel between (yester ra) and (yester tov)
Our biggest enemy is ourselves - our own greed - desire - lust - want - selfishness

The Gospel of Thomas
(68) Jesus said, "Blessed are you when you are hated and persecuted. Wherever you have been persecuted they will find no place."

(69) Jesus said, "Blessed are they who have been persecuted within themselves. It is they who have truly come to know the father. Blessed are the hungry, for the belly of him who desires will be filled."

(70) Jesus said, "That which you have will save you if you bring it forth from yourselves. That which you do not have within you will kill you if you do not have it within you."

[Deleted]

D" Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my body parts, battling against the law of my mind and bringing me into bondage under the law of sin which is in my body parts

This is our inner struggel between (yester ra) and (yester tov).


R" It is possible we are explaining things using different words.
What is yester ra) and (yester tov) ? Scripture please?


In this verse above, the law of sin, is the Hebrew word "torah of chataah"
This notion of sin-offering you do not understand.

So let's begin with you explaining yester ra) and (yester tov) ? Scripture please?
Shalom

[Dave]

D" Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my body parts, battling against the law of my mind and bringing me into bondage under the law of sin which is in my body parts
This is our inner struggle between (yester ra) and (yester tov).

R" It is possible we are explaining things using different words.
What is (yester ra) and (yester tov) ? Scripture please?

Animal (yester ra) = go forth be fruitful and multiply = instinctive self-preservation and the survival of the species

You say dogs are capable of love – agreed – it is a positive reinforcement psychology
Feed them – care for them – pet them – love them – they love to back because you are fulfilling their wants, desires, lusts, and cravings – you are providing them with WORLD
Kick them – whack hem with a stick – starve them – they will hate you – it is a negative reinforcement

Yet – two starving dogs and one dog bone is always a fight for survival = (yester ra) self-preservation

Man’s (yester ra) = go forth be fruitful and multiply = instinctive self-preservation and the survival of the species + dominate

Two hungry men with hungry children + 1 dog bone = a fight for survival – guarantee
When mans is pushed to his limit – his animal nature emerges
I served in the Military – I admit it – I was a US Marine – in battel this animal nature is mandatory

In business – In politics – In scientific research – in everything man-made = the desire to dominate = the desire to be the master = the desire to be the alpha male – it FUELS PROGRESS

Man’s (yester ra) = desire – lust – want – greed – selfishness – self-preservation + the desire to dominate – be the alpha – be the top dog

It takes great (yester ra) to be a great man – to be the PM – or President
It takes great (yestr ra) to be a movie star – a football hero – the winner of the Medal of Honor

NOTHING ABOUT (yester ra) is a sin

SEX – between a man and a women is God’s commandment – go forth and multiply – survival of the species
For an 18 yr old boy to have an rejection IS NOT A SIN – only proof we are still animal
To be attracted to your mate – to marry – to reproduce – IS NOT A SIN

SEX – sure leads to a lot of sin – WORLD / physical / animal / biology

1Co 7:8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them to remain as I am.
1Co 7:9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with desire.

Mat 5:29 And if your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away! It is better for you that one part of your body should be destroyed, than that your whole body be thrown into Gehenna.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away! It is better for you that one part of your body should be destroyed, than that your whole body go into Gehenna.

The Practice and Prohibition of Self-Castration in Early ... - JStorhttps://www.jstor.org › stable
by DF Caner · 1997 · Cited by 73 — In his Apology Justin Martyr tells how a young man in Alexandria pet tioned the Roman prefect for permission to be castrated.' Permission was.

Psychiatric Evaluation of a “Monk” Requesting Castrationhttps://ajp.psychiatryonline.org › doi › pdf › ajp.155.3.415
by LW Roberts · 1998 · Cited by 12 — He de- nied mania, panic attacks, auditory, visual, and olfactory hallucinations, paranoia, self- mutilation, obsessions, and compulsions. He denied having ...

Skoptsy - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Skoptsy
The Skoptsy were a sect within the larger Spiritual Christianity movement in the Russian Empire, best known for practicing castration of men and the ...

'One Stroak of His Razour': Tales of Self-Gelding in Early ...https://academic.oup.com › shm › article
by A Skuse · 2020 · Cited by 3 — Physical castration represented both the mutilation of God's creation, and an attempt to short-cut one's way to moral fortitude by removing the ...

THE PRACTICE AND PROHIBITION OF SELF-CASTRATION ...https://brill.com › downloadpdf › journals › article-p396_4
self-castration as an expression of Christian chastity. ... "did not hesitate to mutilate their bodies" (History of Asceticism in the Syrian Orient I [CSCO.

SEX – sure leads to a lot of sin – SPIRITUAL

Mat 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
Mat 5:28 But I tell you that everyone who looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
----------------

Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my body parts, battling against the law of my mind and bringing me into bondage under the law of sin which is in my body parts.

In this verse above, the law of sin, is the Hebrew word "torah of chataah"
This notion of sin-offering you do not understand.
Stop trying to rewrite scripture in your own image

Rom 7:23 βλέπω δὲ ἕτερον νόμον ἐν τοῖς μέλεσί μου ἀντιστρατευόμενον τῷ νόμῳ τοῦ νοός μου καὶ αἰχμαλωτίζοντά με ἐν τῷ νόμῳ τῆς ἁμαρτίας τῷ ὄντι ἐν τοῖς μέλεσί μου.

G266 - ἁμαρτία – hamartia - From G264; sin (properly abstract): - offence, sin (-ful).
----------------

So let's begin with you explaining (yester ra) - Scripture please?

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

So let's begin with you explaining (yester tov) ? Scripture please?

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[Deleted]

Your teachings are interesting. A marine hey? did you have to kill any other human as an act of war? I could not do that, not allowed to kill humans. I would have been a medic.

D" So let's begin with you explaining (yester ra) - Scripture please?

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

So let's begin with you explaining (yester tov) ? Scripture please?

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

You present passages for an idea?

Where is the verse with RA and TOV in it for your idea?

Your rabbi teach they see two yuds and make things up from letters in the word.

SO let's get this yester ra on a firm foundation? Where is the words in a verse?

SHalom

[Dave]

A marine hey? did you have to kill any other human as an act of war?
Unknown – if your tank or amtrack breaks down – bring it over and I’ll fix it

I could not do that, not allowed to kill humans. I would have been a medic.
You be surprise what you are capable of – is someone else is trying to kill you
The Amish in America are all classified 4F = medics only

D" So let's begin with you explaining (yester ra) - Scripture please?
Gen 1:28
So let's begin with you explaining (yester tov) ? Scripture please?
Jer 1:5 +Gen 2:7
You present passages for an idea?
Correct – precept upon precept, line upon line – the teaching become evident

Man = (flesh) + (soul)
Man = (biology) + (spirit)
Man = (yester ra) + (yester tov)
Man = a duality of nature = man is the only creature that can choose

Where is the verse with RA and TOV in it for your idea?
REFUSE TO PLAY YOUR WORD GAME
You want to pass over the meaning so you can argue words

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin-offering:
All sin and evil doings by man are a sacrifice to the Lord
I am sure your satan god want you to believe this too

REFUSE TO PLAY YOUR WORD GAME
You want to corrupt scripture - to change the meaning - so your doctrine is correct
---------------

Your rabbi teach they see two yuds and make things up from letters in the word.
AND you insist – the Jews do not know their own language – theology – demonology – or culture

[Deleted]

www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803125333955

The good inclination and the evil inclination.’ In the typical Rabbinic doctrine, with far-reaching consequences in Jewish religious thought, every human being has two inclinations or instincts, one pulling upwards, the other downwards. These are the ‘good inclination’—yetzer ha-tov—and the ‘evil inclination’—yetzer ha-ra. The ‘evil inclination’ is frequently identified in the Rabbinic literature and elsewhere with the sex instinct but the term also denotes physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition.

R" No verses

Although it is called the ‘evil inclination’, because it can easily lead to wrongdoing, it really denotes more the propensity towards evil rather than something evil in itself. Indeed, in the Rabbinic scheme, the ‘evil inclination’ provides human life with its driving power and as such is essential to human life. As a well-known Midrash (Genesis Rabbah 9: 7) puts it, were it not for the ‘evil inclination’ no one would build a house or have children or engage in commerce. This is why, according to the Midrash, Scripture says: ‘And God saw everything that he had made and behold, it was very good’ (Genesis 1: 31). ‘Good’ refers to the ‘good inclination’, ‘very good’ to the ‘evil inclination’.

R" totally bunkum, rubbish

It is not too far-fetched to read into this homily the idea that life without the driving force of the ‘evil inclination’ would no doubt still be good but it would be a colourless, uncreative, pallid kind of good. That which makes life ‘very good’ is the human capacity to struggle against the environment and this is impossible without egotistic as well as altruistic, aggressive as well as peaceful, instincts.

The Rabbinic view is, then, realistic. Human beings are engaged in a constant struggle against their propensity for evil but if they so desire they can keep it under control.

R" What propensity, I have a Hebrew word for this "aven", the Jews invent "yester ra", a phrase pulled from two verses out of many words... 

"the term "yester ra" does not even exist in Hebrew verses.

The means of control are provided by the Torah and the precepts. One of the most remarkable Rabbinic passages in this connection states that the Torah is the antidote to the poison of the ‘evil inclination’ (Kiddushin 30b). The meaning appears to be that when the Torah is studied and when there is submission to its discipline, morbid guilt-feelings are banished and life is no longer clouded by the fear that the ‘evil inclination’ will bring about one's ruination. The parable told in this passage is of a king who struck his son, later urging the son to keep a plaster on the wound. While the plaster remains on the wound the prince may eat and drink whatever he desires without coming to harm. Only if the plaster is removed will the wound fester when the prince indulges his appetites. God has ‘wounded’ man by creating him with the ‘evil inclination’. But the Torah is the plaster on the wound, which prevents it from festering and enables him to embrace life without fear.

R" totally bunkum, rubbish

It follows that for the Rabbis the struggle against the ‘evil inclination’ is never-ending in this life. Nowhere in the Rabbinic literature is there the faintest suggestion that it is possible for humans permanently to destroy the ‘evil inclination’ in this life. (Eschatological references to the total destruction of the ‘evil inclination’, and its transformation into a ‘good angel’, are irrelevant. The World to Come is not the world in which humans struggle in the here and now.) For the Rabbis, the true hero is, as stated in Ethics of the Fathers (4. 1), one who ‘subdues’ his ‘evil inclination’, one who exercises severe self-control, refusing to yield to temptation. It is not given to anyone actually to slay the ‘evil inclination’. Nor are there references in the Rabbinic literature to the idea, prevalent in the Jewish mystical and moralistic literatures, of ‘breaking the evil inclination’.


R" Where the term is invented

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination (yester) of the thoughts of his heart was only evil  (ra) continually.

Ge 6:5 And GOD <Y@hovah> saw <ra'ah> that the wickedness <ra`> of man <'adam> was great <rab> in the earth <'erets>, and that every imagination <yetser> of the thoughts <machashabah> of his heart <leb> was only <raq> evil <ra`> continually <yowm>.

Ge 8:21 ....I will not again <yacaph> curse <qalal> the ground <'adamah> any more for man's <'adam> sake <`abuwr>; for the imagination <yetser> of man's <'adam> heart <leb> is evil <ra`> from his youth <na`uwr>;


As I said, the term "yester ra" does NOT exist in Hebrew verses like this.

A study of yester....

1Ch 28:9 ...for the LORD <Y@hovah> searcheth <darash> all hearts <lebab>, and understandeth <biyn> all the imaginations <yetser> of the thoughts <machashabah>:

Ps 103:14 For he knoweth <yada`> our frame <yetser>; he remembereth <zakar> that we are dust <`aphar>.

Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep <natsar> him in perfect <shalowm> peace <shalowm>, whose mind <yetser> is stayed <camak> on thee: because he trusteth <batach> in thee.
Isa 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down <hophek> shall be esteemed <chashab> as the potter's <yatsar> clay <chomer>: for shall the work <ma`aseh> say <'amar> of him that made <`asah> it, He made <`asah> me not? or shall the thing framed <yetser> say <'amar> of him that framed <yatsar> it, He had no understanding <biyn>?

all thy work <m@la'kah>:

Hab 2:18 What profiteth <ya`al> the graven image <pecel> that the maker <yatsar> thereof hath graven <pacal> it; the molten image <maccekah>, and a teacher <yarah> of lies <sheqer>, that the maker <yatsar> of his work <yetser> trusteth <batach> therein, to make <`asah> dumb <'illem> idols <'eliyl>?

Jeff Benner 3335, 3336, 3334, verb press / noun thoughts.


The word yester has verb and noun forms, both must have the same basic meaning

verb "press" noun "pressed-thoughts" 

This is Jeff's idea, modified by me to make sense in Hebrew.

So our minds press and squeeze ideas and in a completed action become pressed-thoughts.

I fail to see what this has got to do with RA, could become bad pressed-thoughts. but doesn't have to be.

My view on aven is better.

Ps 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity {aven} (propensities of vanity), and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth (born) falsehood.

Dozens of verses on "aven", a concept we are born into. epi-genetics

Shalom

[Dave]

www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803125333955
The good inclination and the evil inclination.’ In the typical Rabbinic doctrine, with far-reaching consequences in Jewish religious thought, every human being has two inclinations or instincts, one pulling upwards, the other downwards. These are the ‘good inclination’—yetzer ha-tov—and the ‘evil inclination’—yetzer ha-ra. The ‘evil inclination’ is frequently identified in the Rabbinic literature and elsewhere with the sex instinct but the term also denotes physical appetites in general, aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition.

R" No verses

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

H7287 – רָדָה - râdâh - A primitive root; to tread down, that is, subjugate; specifically to crumble off: - (come to, make to) have dominion, prevail against, reign, (bear, make to) rule, (-r, over), take.

Although it is called the ‘evil inclination’, because it can easily lead to wrongdoing, it really denotes more the propensity towards evil rather than something evil in itself.
YES – in itself – it is NOT a sin
But it leads to sin

and have dominion over – fish, fowl, all the animals – is NOT a sin – it is the commandment of God
and have dominion over – other men = conflict between men

Indeed, in the Rabbinic scheme, the ‘evil inclination’ provides human life with its driving power and as such is essential to human life. As a well-known Midrash (Genesis Rabbah 9: 7) puts it, were it not for the ‘evil inclination’ no one would build a house or have children or engage in commerce. This is why, according to the Midrash, Scripture says: ‘And God saw everything that he had made and behold, it was very good’ (Genesis 1: 31). ‘Good’ refers to the ‘good inclination’, ‘very good’ to the ‘evil inclination’.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over = sexual instinct - physical appetites - aggressive emotions, and unbridled ambition
--------------

The Rabbinic view is, then, realistic.
OH NO - can’t be realistic – Robert doesn’t have a word in Hebrew for that

[Deleted]

D" OH NO - can’t be realistic – Robert doesn’t have a word in Hebrew for that

R" Very funny, so I can't have a serious discussion on this theme with you?

Why can't Jews understand "aven" , it is a Hebrew word, with plenty of verses and deals with epigenetic propensities, and is a biological function that causes RA thinking.

Instead they invent a term based on two verses, pulling words out here and there.

It's not even a word game, its a pull the verse apart and make up an idea method.

Have you ever considered "aven" as a Hebrew concept?

Shalom

[Dave]

D" OH NO - can’t be realistic – Robert doesn’t have a word in Hebrew for that
R" Very funny, so I can't have a serious discussion on this theme with you?
Why can't Jews understand "aven"
Have you ever considered "aven" as a Hebrew concept?

Strong's #205: 'aven (pronounced aw-ven')
from an unused root perhaps meaning properly, to pant (hence, to exert oneself, usually in vain; to come to naught); strictly nothingness; also trouble. vanity, wickedness; specifically an idol:--affliction, evil, false, idol, iniquity, mischief, mourners(-ing), naught, sorrow, unjust, unrighteous, vain ,vanity, wicked(-ness). Compare 369.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon: 'âven
1) trouble, wickedness, sorrow
1a) trouble, sorrow
1b) idolatry
1c) trouble of iniquity, wickedness

You teach that it is wickedness and idolatry – to build a Temple to the Lord
You teach that it is wickedness and idolatry – to grow and achieve
You teach that it is wickedness and idolatry – to desire to marry and reproduce
You teach that it is wickedness and idolatry – to want and desire to witness for the Lord
You teach that it is wickedness and idolatry – to lead the people as a king or commander

Your satan sure has you taught well – you have the desire and want to corrupt scripture
And you teach the want and desire to witness for the Lord is wickedness and idolatry

SEE (yester ra) leads to sin

[Deleted]

Is that all you can do with aven?

At least this Hebrew word has meaning, and concepts if you study it.

Unlike yester ra, which is pulled out of two verses and a invented concept all the way.

Ps 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity "aven", and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth "yalad" falsehood.

Aven can be born within us, a epi-genetic potential

Jeff Benner translates these two forms as action words, vigor and vanity (its opposite).

So Aven has the meaning of genetic potential for vigor, or it's opposite meaning the genetic potential for dysfunction.

The Bible has two meanings for the "strong fixed seed" Hebrew "Aven" :-

(1) The power within the gene pool for functional work or
(2) The power within the gene pool for dysfunctional work.

Isa 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth "talad" (born) iniquity "aven" "genetic propensities".

5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

Notice the affects of "aven"

Isa 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

SOunds like to me epi-genetic potential to do ra, running into more depravity and wicked sinning.

Job 15:35 They conceive mischief, and bring forth "yalad" (born) vanity (propensities of vanity), and their belly prepareth deceit.(KJV)

The first biological link to epi-genetic potential for RA is the stomach and the vagus nerve which links the stomach to the mind, thus APPETITE
is the first tool used to fuel epi-genetic potential for RA.

(I can't get any solid Bible studies using yester ra, but I can using "Aven", and it is consistent throughout every verse and context)

Ps 10:7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and iniquity(propensities of vanity).

Zones of influence (foul language, and immoral acts) impact upon our epi-genetics, thus we pass on our propensities for vanity, to our children through the conception process.

Ps 59:2 Deliver me from the workers of iniquity(propensities of vanity), and save me from bloody men.

Violence is the ultimate climax of Satanic propensities unleashed.

Ps 66:18 If I regard iniquity(propensities of vanity) in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.

This verse explains why so many so called Christians are powerless with Jesus, because they are not overcoming all known and ig norant propensities in their lives.

This is not a reference to sinning even, wilful or ignorant. This is a reference to the epi-genetic potential in your to sinning, you must pray for the Holy Spirit to remove.

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

This verse is written correctly with power. If we are not overcoming every propensity in our lives, we are powerless before Jesus, and He does not hear us. Pray, fast and meditate in Him, ask Jesus to cut your away your flesh and give you His flesh, the creative task of quickening which only the Holy Spirit can do in you, to Jesus glory. Be clean, and be found with no guile in your mouth.

Pr 6:18 An heart that deviseth vain (wicked)(propensities of vanity) imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

Propensities begin in the mind with our thoughts and imaginations. These thoughts awaken certain gene expressions, causing a cognitive habit of the mind leading to some dysfunctional sin.

Pr 12:21 � There shall no evil(propensities of vanity)happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief.

The righteous do not evil propensities, only the wicked do.

Pr 22:8 � He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity:(propensities of vanity) and the rod of his anger shall fail.

We reap what we sow. If our minds think dysfunctional thoughts we will awaken genes to produce evil propensities. If we produce children these propensities are inherited by our children in their epi-genetics.

Here is a OT word link to the NT Greek

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from propensities [which] lust, [and] war against the soul;

Lu 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of propensity .

Ro 1:29 Being filled with all propensities, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Ro 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there propensities with God? God forbid.

2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of propensities ;

Balaam had to be opposed by God since Balaam naturally opposes God. Why ? Because he sins, from the reserve of propensities stored within him.

Now this is a sample from the Hebrew word and verses I showed you, much more to see than your verses of yester ra, which do not exist, not even a single verse.


So what do you think of the Hebrew word "Aven" and it's meaning, propensities? or epi-genetic-propensities?

One could use iniquities, but this word does not allude to much...

aven is linked to born process, and so is inherited in us...from what sinnings our parents do... epi-genetics...

This is spelled out in a ten commandment law

Ex 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Here we see avon, guilt.

But I feel aven, epi-genetic-propensities are also long and difficult to remove, 3 or 4 generations they impact the children's children.

There are also similes and other verses to draw on, a big subject.

Shalom

[Dave]

Jul 13, 2022 4:53:45 GMT -5 @robertt said:

D" OH NO - can’t be realistic – Robert doesn’t have a word in Hebrew for that

R" Very funny, so I can't have a serious discussion on this theme with you?

EVIDENTLY WE CANNOT HAVE A SERIOUS DISCUSSION

I am speaking about God’s commandment to man
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
The desire to reproduce – build – succeed – grow – mature – progress – want – desire – ambition

Your response – Ellen White's SDA satanic evil

Jul 13, 2022 4:53:45 GMT -5 @robertt said:

Why can't Jews understand "aven" , it is a Hebrew word, with plenty of verses and deals with epigenetic propensities, and is a biological function that causes RA thinking.

Strong's #205: 'aven (pronounced aw-ven')
from an unused root perhaps meaning properly, to pant (hence, to exert oneself, usually in vain; to come to naught); strictly nothingness; also trouble. vanity, wickedness; specifically an idol:--affliction, evil, false, idol, iniquity, mischief, mourners(-ing), naught, sorrow, unjust, unrighteous, vain ,vanity, wicked(-ness). Compare 369.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon: 'âven
1) trouble, wickedness, sorrow
1a) trouble, sorrow
1b) idolatry
1c) trouble of iniquity, wickedness

[Deleted]

Greetings Dave

First of all not a single SDA supports the word "Aven" except me, I alone, with the Lord's wisdom helped me uncover this Hebrew word, unknown to the SDA, except for the prophetess Ellen White. This bothers you? Not me. After all if she is a messenger from the LORD, than one will expect her messages to be in Hebrew and of deep value.

She of course never knew Hebrew, or wrote Hebrew, she only did what she was told to do and wrote what she was told to write. So what is the chance of a little old American lady knowing the meaning of "Aven"? My answer is zero, as a human.

D" Your response – Ellen White's SDA satanic evil

R" You didn't even read my study.... so much for a serious discussion. You are rude and disrespectful. 

Instead you want me to ponder your one verse?

D" Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
The desire to reproduce – build – succeed – grow – mature – progress – want – desire – ambition

"fruitful and multiply" what does this tell us? Not much, its just one verse,

We could look up all the verses behind the Hebrew words here?

"replenish" something Walter Veith alludes to, but out of your league

"subdue" "chadesh" A Hebrew word I love, does it mean here it's positive meaning, the idea to "surrender" or its negative meaning "subdue" / "walk over" and "control"
- not sure of the context.

But than we have not even agreed that Hebrew words have positive and negative meanings have we, depending upon context?

I notice when you are confronted with a Hebrew word, you uses Strong's.
How pathetic and poor a scholar are you, after all you have said to me, where is your line upon line, method you speak of?

I did this study, but you refuse to look at it?

Not a single SDA person knows about this study, it is unique only to me.
It just so happens that ELLEN WHITE agrees with me on the linking of her term "propensity" to "aven". Again something she never wrote either, so stop assuming as you do, and stop mocking as you do, really how much patience I show to you....

Now regarding your passage, it says nothing about "pressed-thoughts" or your term "yester", which by the way comes in two forms, verb and noun, we have not agreed to this idea either.

Your Jewish concept of yester-ha-ra is invented in the minds of men. Not based on a single Hebrew verse, only pulled apart from two verses at best.

My concept comes from over 2 dozen verses, if you study "Aven" yourself, across all the Scripture, line upon line.

Be fruitful <parah>, and multiply <rabah>

Are you wanting a study of these two Hebrew words?

How do they help you anyway?

Ps 128:3 Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table.

From this the term parah means to increase in number, bear fruit, a simile for procreation actives.

Isa 45:8 ...and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

Salvation is a simile of the process of bearing fruit, and is a creative process inside the humans. This agrees with Ps 51:10, the creative fruit bearing process with the compassion-centre (womb) of the HS.

Ex 16:17 And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less.

Rabah means to increase in number

Le 11:42 ... or whatsoever hath more feet

Rabah means to increase in number

Here I did a little study of the words, do you have any contexts that relate these words to "ra" or "RA" themes, so as to build something along your view? That would have your view.


SHalom

[Dave]

First of all not a single SDA supports the word "Aven" except me, I alone,
I believe you – you stand alone in your made up doctrine
Wait a minute – You present yourself as a 100% Ellen White disciple – you filter all scripture through her view – You said – “she has taught you how to read scripture”

with the Lord's wisdom helped me uncover this Hebrew word, unknown to the SDA, except for the prophetess Ellen White
So you do present the Ellen White view
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R" You didn't even read my study.... so much for a serious discussion
Yes I read over your attempt to change the subject – it is not on point

Instead you want me to ponder your one verse?
D" Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
The desire to reproduce – build – succeed – grow – mature – progress – want – desire – ambition
Correct – this is a commandment by God to man – it is not evil or wicked idolatry as you try to suggest

"fruitful and multiply" what does this tell us? Not much, its just one verse,
DUH – this is the commandment to all biology – and repeated to man because man is also biology
Instinctive SELF-PRESERVATION and the SURVIVAL OF THE SPECIES
You try to make this into “aven” – wickedness and idolatry –
You try to make it into something dirty and full of evil RA and dysfunction

DUH – way to miss the point

We could look up all the verses behind the Hebrew words here?
YES Robert – you want to play a word game trying to make God’s commandment into something evil and dysfunctional

I did this study, but you refuse to look at it?
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Ps 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity "aven", and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth "yalad" falsehood.

Aven can be born within us, a epi-genetic potential

Why do you teach that the commandment to man – to go forth be fruitful and multiply – subdue/conquer and dominate – an iniquity "aven",

(I can't get any solid Bible studies using yester ra, but I can using "Aven", and it is consistent throughout every verse and context)
What and excuse – so serious

[BOOK] Demonic Desires:" Yetzer Hara" and the Problem of Evil in Late Antiquity
I Rosen-Zvi - 2011 - books.google.com
… the set phrase “yetzer hara” for the first time. It claims that rabbinic yetzer is a product of a
process of internalizing “real” demonic figures, and that the rise of the yetzer in early rabbinic …
Save Cite Cited by 149 Related articles All 6 versions

M Breton - The Iowa Review, 1988 - pubs.lib.uiowa.edu
Yetzer Har? freckles dispersed in improbable places 0 YES I LOOK and my intentions are
evil of kisses … Yetzer Har? …
Save Cite All 3 versions

Ishay Rosen-Zvi. Demonic Desires: Yetzer Hara and the Problem of Evil in Late Antiquity. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2011. 264 pp.
M Hirschman - AJS review, 2013 - cambridge.org

… Demonic Desires: Yetzer Hara and the Problem of Evil in Late … He makes good critical
usage of the extensive previous bibliography on the yetzer, two monographs, and many …
Save Cite Cited by 1 Related articles All 5 versions
[PDF] utoronto.ca

The Rabbis, Gender, and the Yetzer Hara: The Origins and Development of the Evil Inclination
S Towers - Women in Judaism: A Multidisciplinary e …, 2018 - wjudaism.library.utoronto.ca
… , yetzer hara will be translated as the evil inclination. In rabbinic texts, the yetzer hara becomes
… This paper seeks to further understanding of the relation between yetzer hara and gender …
Save Cite All 2 versions

" Were it not for the yetzer hara": eating, knowledge, and the physical in Jonathan Rosen's Eve's Apple
A Sol - Shofar: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Jewish Studies, 2004 - muse.jhu.edu
… yetzer hara, a man would not build a house, take a wife, beget children, or engage in commerce.”
In this sense the yetzer hara … than deny the desires of the yetzer hara in order to live a …
Save Cite Related articles All 4 versions

Demonic Desires:" Yetzer Hara" and the Problem of Evil in Late Antiquity
D Desires - JSTOR
InDemonic Desires, Ishay Rosen-Zvi examines the concept ofyetzer hara, or evil inclination,
and its evolution in biblical and rabbinic literature. Contrary to existing scholarship, which …
Save Cite All 2 versions
[PDF] researchgate.net

Lechem hara (bad bread), lechem tov (good bread): Survival and sacrifice during the holocaust
J Rawicki, C Ellis - Qualitative Inquiry, 2011 - journals.sagepub.com
… as existing on a spectrum between yetzer hara (evil inclination) and yetzer tov (good inclination).
Jews struggle to suppress the yetzer hara and exercise the yetzer tov. Based on an oral …
Save Cite Cited by 23 Related articles All 6 versions
Thanatos, Id and the Evil Impulse

MHL Spero - Tradition: A Journal of Orthodox Jewish Thought, 1975 - JSTOR
… in scholastic pursuit of a tenable description of the yetzer hara. For this purpose alone, we
… by attempt ing to establish similarities between the yetzer hara, the id or Thanatos on very …
Save Cite Cited by 5 Related articles All 2 versions

Jewish Perspectives on Campus Unrest
J Grunblatt - Tradition: A Journal of Orthodox Jewish Thought, 1970 - JSTOR
… yetzer hara energy can be diverted towards yetzer tov goals, yetzer tov energies could be
routed to further yetzer hara … That is, yetzer tov energy can be used to transform the bio-…
Save Cite Cited by 1 Related articles

Instincts
A Solomon - Tradition: A Journal of Orthodox Jewish Thought, 1975 - JSTOR
… over both conscious and un conscious components of the yetzer hara. Similarly, I must
question Mr. Soero's statement that the yetzer hara is not available to sublimation. Andy Solomon …
Save Cite Related articles

Ps 59:2 Deliver me from the workers of iniquity(propensities of vanity), and save me from bloody men.

Why do you pray to be delivered from the Commandment to - go forth be fruitful and multiply – subdue/conquer and dominate

Violence is the ultimate climax of Satanic propensities unleashed.
What does this have to so with – God Commandment to man to - go forth be fruitful and multiply – subdue/conquer and dominate


No one denies that (yester ra) leads to sin
No one denies that (yester ra) leads to aven

The only thing you have proven here is that you fail to understand - and your desire to twist the Commandment of the Lord into domething dusfuctional - wicked - and idolitress 

[Deleted]

D"You try to make this into “aven” – wickedness and idolatry –
You try to make it into something dirty and full of evil RA and dysfunction

R" First of all "aven" is NOT wickedness or idolatry.... prove me wrong.
Stop making up stuff and twisting as you do

Second the word

Aven" does not mean something dirty nor does it mean full of evil , RA and dysfunction.

I showed you from Jeff Benner what the word means.

It comes in both a positive and negative sense,

meaning one's "genetic potential"..

It just so happen when a person sins, the sinning potential is inherited via our epi-genetics.

Do you agree with this idea?

That is what "Aven" means, changing our "genetic potential"

Do you agree with this idea?

D"No one denies that (yester ra) leads to aven

R" That's why I show you a better Hebrew study than your Jewish invented one, which by the way does not have a single Hebrew verse to the idea.

If there are any verses on "yester ha ra" I would love to see them, but as I understand NONE exist.

Not so with "Aven" the term means "genetic potential" in which dozens of verses exist and they speak of something very similar to the Jewish idea of yester ra.

And you just agreed with me on this.

I would rather study Hebrew words, not Jewish inventions of phrases that do not come from Hebrew words, but from the precepts of men.

Shalom