Ellen White vrs Incremental Creation

[Dave]

Mar 11, 2022 15:38:43 GMT -5 @robertt said:

D"Then move on to the next question – prove to us that Ellen White does not contradict scripture

R" OK, your insistence that "Fossils and coal both predate the Flood" cannot be proved by you, it seems, so it's a stale mate, and very difficult proving to you that natural death and decomposition was NOT a part of the Creation design for Adam's sinless and deathless Creation.

Incremental Creation – scripture validating science – science validation scripture


The order of creation is preserved in the fossil record

Day 3 begins with the – First Life
The oldest fossil form of earth = cyanobacteria – single cell prokaryotes – they feed by photosynthesis and excrete oxygen
There was no sun at this time – they fed on the Light of the cosmos – the true energy

(google) The Cambrian Period - pre-Cambrian explosion - marks an important point in the history of life on Earth; it is the time when most of the major groups of animals first appear in the fossil record. This event is sometimes called the "Cambrian Explosion," because of the relatively short time over which this diversity of forms appears.

No evolution over long periods of time – God said – at it was

Day 4 – Our Sun appears – photosynthesis goes crazy

Over time as levels rise – the oxygen actually becomes toxic to life
The Great Oxygenation Even
(google) The Great Oxidation Event (GOE), also called the Great Oxygenation Event, the Oxygen Catastrophe, and the Oxygen Crisis, was a time interval when the Earth's atmosphere and the shallow ocean first experienced a rise in the amount of oxygen.

Old Life forms passed away – accumulating to form the coal we dig today
Did the coal magically appear during the Pennsylvanian era – now but it is this layer that is formed coal by the time of the Flood of Noah

There is a shift in the variety / diversity of Life – Eukaryotes appeared
Newer Life – decayed – because now there were newer Eukaryotes to digest it – feed upon it

Notice this inert from image 1- nothing here – or anywhere – violates the order of creation


The Flood of Noah - + Incremental Creation
1- the geological record validates the order of creation as ordered in Genesis
Day 1 came before Day 2 which came before Day 3 – etc
2- The Flood of Noah – is the moment in history when the earth catastrophically changed
3- the once continuous crust – is separated into 7 continental plates

[Dave]

A mistake molders make is in the mating of the continental shore lines to form the ancient globe
It is actually they mating of the continental shelves that fit perfectly together


These continental plates additionally carry with them the rock strata that indicate the geological record of our past


More evidence for the Flood from the rock strata

Almost nowhere on planet earth is the rock strata laid out with conformity – rather unconformity is the standard
Up lifting forces from the center of the earth has pushed upwardly upon our crust – fracturing the rock strata
Some parts up lifted more than others – and always the mechanism for these uplifts are – pressures from the inside


If you ask a geologist about the complexity of the fractured and dislocated rock strata beneath out feet – the answer is always the same – created by uplifting forces – but the mainstream science model has no mechanism for this uplifting force

The Question remains what force and when
Answer the when = the Flood of Noah – when the 7 continental plates separated
Answer – what force – internal decompression – or expanding earth

Question – when were all the rock strata uplifted and moved about
Answer the when – the Flood of Noah– when the 7 continental plates separated
Answer – what force – internal decompression – or expanding earth

FYI – not only did the force of decompression fracture the rock strata and move them about
But the conditions of ‘Standard atm pressure and temperature” changed so catastrophically rapidly that it also folded the rock strata

Robert’s argument –
1- nothing ever died until Adam sinned
2- coal is from the trees buried by the Flood

And God conveniently placed all those trees at the bottom of the geological record than then sprinkle out the fossil record through the rock strata in the same order as indicated by scripture, the evidence and Incremental Creation

Then Robert needs more catastrophic upheavals after the Flkood of Noan - to fracture and move all that rock strata around

[Dave]

More evidence for the Flood from the rock strata
One of (WEDD) Dr. Herndon’s argument of evidence = secondary decompression cracks – as in the deep oceanic trenches that form the Ring of Fire
To that evidence I suggested the addition of the American Grand Canyon – as just another decompression crack
All geologist teach – the Colorado River cut the Grand Canyon into the ground as the ground rose in elevation

Look at this image of a cross section of Northern Arizona. As the uplifted rock strata is exposed – it forms the cliffs and bluffs found all over the American West – the Grand canyon is also one large decompression crack at the top of a mantel uplift from below


Robert’s argument –
1- nothing ever died until Adam sinned
2- coal is from the trees buried by the Flood

And God conveniently placed all those trees at the bottom of the geological record than then sprinkle out the fossil record through the rock strata in the same order as indicated by scripture, the evidence and Incremental Creation

Incremental Creation – validated by an endless supply of scientific inquiry
Incremental Creation – the order of God’s creation validated by scripture and science

Another look at Day 6 of scriptural creation
After God made man – creation was complete


Gen 2:7 and the story of mankind unfolds – ending in the Flood of Noah
A time when more than one species of man and archon lived side by side with the dinos
A time described in Gen 6:1-5 and the Book of Enoch

After the Flood – there is another gap in time in the human record before the age of Sumar and the Futile Crescent

Human pre-cultures displaced upstream because of rising sea levels post Ice Age

Off the coast – under the water – are evidence of a human per-culture before Sumar
To this list us added - - evidence off the West Coast of Cuba, Southern tip of Florida, Southern end of Japan, and the North Atlantic

Before Babel
Gen 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah according to their genealogies in their nations, and from these the nations were dispersed on the earth after the flood.

Or/and After Babel
Gen 11:9 This is why it is named Babel, because Adonai confused the languages of the entire world there, and from there Adonai scattered them over the face of the entire world.

Incremental Creation – validated by an endless supply of scientific inquiry
Incremental Creation – the order of God’s creation validated by scripture and science

Robert’s argument –
1- nothing ever died until Adam sinned
2- coal is from the trees buried by the Flood
And God conveniently placed all those trees at the bottom of the geological record than then sprinkle out the fossil record through the rock strata in the same order as indicated by scripture, the evidence and Incremental Creation

Then Robert needs more catastrophic upheavals after the Flkood of Noan - to fracture and move all that rock strata around

Robert validated by – Ellen White alone and her 19th century science that does not stand the evidence

[Deleted]

Nice presentation, 

your theory seems OK / expanding earth idea during a flood.
You seem to present the idea during Creation??

D"Robert’s argument –
1- nothing ever died until Adam sinned
2- coal is from the trees buried by the Flood
And God conveniently placed all those trees at the bottom of the geological record than then sprinkle out the fossil record through the rock strata in the same order as indicated by scripture, the evidence and Incremental Creation

Then Robert needs more catastrophic upheavals after the Flkood of Noan - to fracture and move all that rock strata around

Robert validated by – Ellen White alone and her 19th century science that does not stand the evidence

R" correct nothing ever died or decomposed until SINNED came via Adam

correct coal got buried by the flood of Noah

The Great flood event has much actions,
(1) the washing in
(2) the expansion of earth breaking up deep, volcanoes and magma
(3) The waters washing off land

and later for 500+ years

(4) more upheaval, volcanoes, earthquakes etc.

So plenty of time for polystrate fossils you term term tree trunks.

Problem with Daves view

(1) God created natural death
(2) God waits for a billion years to move yom 3 into yom 4
(3) God is light, so why the plants couldn't photosynthesize?

God spoke granite rocks into existence with 3 milli seconds,
Robert Gantry's work on plutonium halos in zircon crystals of granite.

SHalom

[Dave]

D"Robert’s argument –
1- nothing ever died until Adam sinned
2- coal is from the trees buried by the Flood
And God conveniently placed all those trees at the bottom of the geological record than then sprinkle out the fossil record through the rock strata in the same order as indicated by scripture, the evidence and Incremental Creation

Then Robert needs more catastrophic upheavals after the Flkood of Noan - to fracture and move all that rock strata around

Robert validated by – Ellen White alone and her 19th century science that does not stand the evidence

R" correct nothing ever died or decomposed until SINNED came via Adam

So – on the one hand – I offer 300 years worth of scientific empirical evidence from thousands of scientist from hundreds of different specialties from all around the globe and scripture

And your most intelligent response = Ellen White said so
How disappointing you cannot back up you views with empirical evidence

Problem with Daves view
(1) God created natural death
YES – the natural cycle of LIFE = birth – growth – death - and rebirth
No matter where you look – or on what scale you look – all creation testifies to the One True Creator

Birth	Growth	Life		Death	Rebirth
Birth	Growth	Life		Death	Afterlife
Rosh Hashanah	Yom Kippur	Sukkot	Pirum	Pesach	Shavuot
From the beginning	Do I need to atone?	God tabernacles with man	Salvation is of the Lord	Passover Passover Passover	Pentecost
From God we came	Isa 54:13 Prov 1:8-9 Mat 19:14	Jer 1:5	John 3:16	Rom 6:23	Pentecost Communion
Birth	Growth	Life		Death	Rebirth/afterlife

Nature = birth – growth – death – and rebirth = the cycle of life – before man
All of nature – all of creation witnesses to the Glory of God and the truth of scripture

That lesson from nature – since birth you grow and come to understand from nature that eventually – you will die a mortal death. You can choose to worry about what comes after that – or not – your choice

(2) God waits for a billion years to move yom 3 into yom 4
Just because you keep misrepresenting me and science does not change the facts

Mar 8, 2022 10:21:54 GMT -5 Dave said:

Creationist demand you pick a side – their pseudo-science – or empirical evidence
Buy into the myth they present – and be ignorant of empirical evidence – doubt it
AND – the only argument they have is TIME

Time is not Linear
The ahl/OT says it - Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night.
The agl/NT says it - 2Pe 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, loved ones, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day.
Science says it – time and gravity are measurable at different rates dependent upon the perspective of the viewer

Time – is a measure of order - Day 1 came before Day 2 which came before Day 3 - etc

(3) God is light, so why the plants couldn't photosynthesize?
Either you have a reading comprehension issue – or you just blow me off
Just because you keep misrepresenting me and science does not change the facts

Mar 12, 2022 19:41:12 GMT -5 Dave said:

The order of creation is preserved in the fossil record

Day 3 begins with the – First Life
The oldest fossil form of earth = cyanobacteria – single cell prokaryotes – they feed by photosynthesis and excrete oxygen
There was no sun at this time – they fed on the Light of the cosmos – the true energy

(google) The Cambrian Period - pre-Cambrian explosion - marks an important point in the history of life on Earth; it is the time when most of the major groups of animals first appear in the fossil record. This event is sometimes called the "Cambrian Explosion," because of the relatively short time over which this diversity of forms appears.

No evolution over long periods of time – God said – at it was

Day 4 – Our Sun appears – photosynthesis goes crazy

Over time as levels rise – the oxygen actually becomes toxic to life
The Great Oxygenation Even
(google) The Great Oxidation Event (GOE), also called the Great Oxygenation Event, the Oxygen Catastrophe, and the Oxygen Crisis, was a time interval when the Earth's atmosphere and the shallow ocean first experienced a rise in the amount of oxygen.

So – on the one hand – I offer 300 years worth of scientific empirical evidence from thousands of scientist from hundreds of different specialties from all around the globe and scripture
The reality = most scientist accept an Intelligent Design over evolution

Incremental Creation reflects their need to recognize the One True Creator

Incremental Creation reflects their ability to recognize the One True Creator

Incremental Creation reflects the OBVIOUSE - all creation witnesses to the One True Creator

Psa 19:2 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky shows His handiwork.

Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse—
Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, their thinking became futile, and their senseless hearts were made dark.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools.

All of the evidence – from every science – on any scale – from any time - validates the One True Creator
Jews and Christians and true science all support the Inteligent Designer

All of the evidence – from every science – on any scale – from any time - validates the One True Creator

Jews and Christians and true science all support the Inteligent Designer The One True God

Isn't it courious that Robert with his Ellen White and his creationist all want you to deny this revelation - They ask us to deny Psa 19:2 + Rom 1:18-20 + Isa 45:7 + Pro 16:4 + John 1:1-4 + Col 1:16 - Eph 6:12 + Gen 6:1-5 + Gen 2:1-4 + Gen 2:7 + Gen 1:1-4 + Gen 1:31 + Heb 4:1-11 + Ecc 3:1-11 - I tire of his endless list of scripture he must deny to support Ellen White and their satan god

And your most intelligent response = Ellen White said so
How disappointing you cannot back up you views with empirical evidence – or any evidence at all

[Deleted]

D"The oldest fossil form of earth = cyanobacteria – single cell prokaryotes – they feed by photosynthesis and excrete oxygen
There was no sun at this time – they fed on the Light of the cosmos – the true energy

R" how do you know this for certain? These fossils might have been living at deep seas on purpose and got buried in this position, during the great flood?

I am glad you admit the Light of the cosmos. How does this fit into your previous posts of science who say the lignin eating bacteria were not around than, so the plant material ended up as coal?


D"Time – is a measure of order - Day 1 came before Day 2 which came before Day 3 - etc
Time is not Linear

R" SO answer my question than

Is the Yom 3 an exact period of time as yom 4, which according to science is the revolution of the earth on it's axis, ie a local yom event.

My reference is local based time, not relative time when GOD looked at earth from heaven, the time would be different here, from God looking down on us on earth, ie older, because the time fame of reference is different. God's frame of reference is 5 million light years distant to our earth. As you say "Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night" This measure of time is on a different frame of reference. Do you even understand this frame of reference thing?

BUT, Local based time on earth, the revolution of time on earth turning on its axis....that time is called yom in Hebrew. On earth time is measured locally by the turning of the earth into the light. Yom is a local day of 24 hours.

D"How disappointing you cannot back up you views with empirical evidence – or any evidence at all

R" First I offer you Hebrew yom, meant according to Jews as local time, 24 hours of time, not long ages of time.

Second I offer you the next creation of earth has to be exactly the same as the first creation of earth, ie no SIN on earth, or SIN affects, eg RA.

You agree to this but argue GOD created earth with RA intentionally. I say no.
One of us is wrong.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not;

The next creation has to be exactly as the first creation of earth was, minus the SIN problem.

The salvation process thus has to be the same as first creation of man's body, minus the SIN spoiling of our flesh and body. You seem to think Jesus is in heaven in a spirit body, I say Jesus is in heaven in the same biological body we humans have on earth, but minus the SIN spoiling of our flesh and body. AND has intentionally a memorial of RA remaining on this biological body for eternity, the scars and wounds on our sinless Saviour, a terrible cost for sinners who choose RA.

You present a different creation first and a perfect creation next.
You present a biological body for Adam with RA, and a perfect unknown body next without RA.

"How disappointing you cannot back up your views with Biblical  evidence " Your evidence is only Gnostic: the Gnostic said so. I can read Rev 22 and I see what the original creation for Adam was like, before Adam sinned and spoiled creation. God's curse of creation spoken in Gen 3, something you also ignore.

Shalom

[Dave]

D"The oldest fossil form of earth = cyanobacteria – single cell prokaryotes – they feed by photosynthesis and excrete oxygen
There was no sun at this time – they fed on the Light of the cosmos – the true energy
R" how do you know this for certain?
1- total agreement with genesis
2- total agreement with the empirical evidence

These fossils might have been living at deep seas on purpose and got buried in this position, during the great flood?
Would-a / should-a / could-a – invent anything you want
But all the empirical evidence supports Genesis – plants before the sun

I am glad you admit the Light of the cosmos. How does this fit into your previous posts of science who say the lignin eating bacteria were not around than, so the plant material ended up as coal?
I fail to see what one has to do with the other

On day 4
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Did not exist yet

On Day 3
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Did not exist yet

On Day 2
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Did not exit yet

I am glad you admit the Light of the cosmos. How does this fit into your previous posts of science who say the lignin eating bacteria were not around than, so the plant material ended up as coal?
I fail to see what one has to do with the other

Plants existed for an entire creation Day before the Sun
the lignin eating bacteria were not around then

D"How disappointing you cannot back up you views with empirical evidence – or any evidence at all
R" First I offer you Hebrew yom, meant according to Jews as local time, 24 hours of time, not long ages of time.
YET - it was the Jews who first discovered - the 10 dimensions of our scientific reality -Kabbalah - excell in quantum physics - dominate the field today - deisagree with
Second I offer you the next creation of earth has to be exactly the same as the first creation of earth, ie no SIN on earth, or SIN affects, eg RA.
1- WOW - I didn't realize your proof was so extensive
2- You violate dispensation – the future New Heaven and Earth – is a promise / a reward
Where we are now = the present – which is just a continuation of the past - it contains ra and thanks to Eve, sin.

[Deleted]

D"Plants existed for an entire creation Day before the Sun
the lignin eating bacteria were not around then
R" Is that all you write? You post heaps of scripture that says ...??

How do you know the lignin eating bacteria were not around then ?

How do you know God allowed for decomposition of plant's material thus natural death?

Why do you have two meanings of muwth, natural muwth and moral muwth?
Scripture does not do this?

D" You violate dispensation – the future New Heaven and Earth – is a promise / a reward
Where we are now = the present – which is just a continuation of the past - it contains ra and thanks to Eve, sin.
R" You violate Scripture

Re 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Is this a brand new earth, or a renewed earth?

I say renewed, hence the present is linked to the future, it is restored as it was before....

Not brand new different without RA this time as you claim.

The first creation did not have RA, now it does have ra, thanks to Adam who allowed God's curse to come over His creation.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Same idea here same word, we are not made brand new upon baptism, but renewed, restored.

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Same idea here, renewed covenant, not a brand new covenant. Jesus did not abolished all the laws for sin-offering and make a brand new system of dealing with sin-offering. However many religions claim this idea.

I quote"

In the Testimony of Yeshua, there are two Greek words for new: neos and kainos, and each one has a different connotation. Neos more often means “brand new or numerically new,” while kainos means “renewed, refreshed or repaired or qualitatively new.”

SO Dave you are wrong, the next creation is not brand new, but a renewed creation of our older creation,

Hence natural death was never in it in the beginning.

1Co 5:7 ¶ Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth

Here are some verses with neos, the idea of brand new.

D"Where we are now = the present – which is just a continuation of the past - it contains ra and thanks to Eve, sin
R" NO, the present is completely different to the past, which was without a trace of RA or sin

The future is a restoration of the past, affected by SIN and also RA, the consequences of sin.

Shalom

[Dave]

D"Plants existed for an entire creation Day before the Sun
the lignin eating bacteria were not around then
R" Is that all you write? You post heaps of scripture that says ...??

THAT SAYS THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE CREATOR THAT CREATED EVERYTHING
AND EVERYTHING WAS CREATED FOR A PURPOSE
As in – God is ABSOLUTE – it is the message from scripture – only you and Ellen White deny it

How do you know the lignin eating bacteria were not around then ?
It is called emperical evidence
The scientific literature discusses the fact that none are found as fossil forms within the coal
Dillon provided you with a short - lymans terms - video
and links to 20 scientific papers - but you said you could find the links
If you cannot copy and paste aomething into your address bar to find it - I doubt you would understand the big words they use to expalin their findins

How do you know God allowed for decomposition of plant's material thus natural death?
It is what the empirical evidence indicates
Real world evidence supports God’s creation
Why does this revelation upset you do much - why do you work so hard to deny

I can offer you 1000s of scientific document by 100s of scientist from several centuries that all validate the order of creation -

Science proves beyound any doubt - Day 1 came before Day 2 - then Day 3 - then day 4, 5, 6, and now 7

Science proves beyound any doubt - Intelligent Design - therefore a Designer

You - creationist - and Ellen White - war against the evidence - need to deny it all
Pick a word and hate it - they said evolve - or they said a million years
Just play word games - so thet the evidence must not support scripture - be at odds with one another - take sides - accept the dogman or the evidence - accept the myth or the evidence - accept religion or the evidence - so you just force the educated out of the flock

The church has deliberately failed to keep pace with education
You make people choose - religion - or the evidence
AND THE PEOPLE HAVE CHOSEN - the churches are more empty every day
'People are throwing away the baby with the bath water'

They all accept the Intelligent Designer - but are tired of being rejected by you - your church - your religion - and your god

Incremental Creation allows the believer to also be intelligent
Scientist do not have to deny any evidence to accept the Intelligent Desiger
Thay all already believe in AN intelligent designer -
Increment Creation validates that it is the One True God of the Judeo-Christian scripture

Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 + John 1:4 + Col 1:16

Evedently you reject - the idea of bringing your fellow man to God - showing God to your fellow man in the very creation we exist - showing God to your fellow man even through grief and hardship

It is what the empirical evidence indicates
Real world evidence supports God’s creation
Why does this revelation upset you do much - why do you work so hard to deny

Why do you have two meanings of muwth, natural muwth and moral muwth?
Scripture does not do this?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Death is cast into the second death
You are entirely too comfortable misrepresenting scripture - Christian
But it is your misson here to misrepresent scripture to others and mock the word of God
You simply oppose – it is the teaching of the opposer – just oppose – oppose the word of God – oppose other Christians – and oppose and mock those who have experienced the gift of the Holy Spirit

Your opposer has trained you well and must be so proud of you
You oppose long enough – you just oppose yourself

I know who you are

[Dave]

ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/bacteriafr.html
It may seem surprising that bacteria can leave fossils at all. However, one particular group of bacteria, the cyanobacteria or "blue-green algae," have left a fossil record that extends far back into the Precambrian - the oldest cyanobacteria-like fossils known are nearly 3.5 billion years old, among the oldest fossils currently known. Cyanobacteria are larger than most bacteria, and may secrete a thick cell wall. More importantly, cyanobacteria may form large layered structures, called stromatolites (if more or less dome-shaped) or oncolites (if round). These structures form as a mat of cyanobacteria grows in an aquatic environment, trapping sediment and sometimes secreting calcium carbonate.

These structures form as a mat of cyanobacteria grows in an aquatic environment,
This is why people call it blue-green algae
It forms a floating mat of goo that clings together – so it looks like a larger growth – but is just a large colony of bacteria - pond scum

www.encyclopedia.com/earth-and-environment/geology-and-oceanography/geology-and-oceanography/fossilization-bacteria
Fossilization of bacteria
Studies of fossilization of bacteria provide an indication of the age of ancient bacteria and of the rate of geological and geochemical processes on ancient Earth. Fossils of cyanobacteria or "blue-green algae" have been recovered from rocks that are nearly 3.5 million years old. ….

In the late 1990s a meteorite from the planet Mars was shown to contain bodies that appeared very similar to bacterial fossils that have been found in rocks on Earth.

YES – Gnostic Christianity support life on other planets – bacterial life + plant life + animal life
It is just religious Catholic arrogance to think we are the center of the universe – or that Rome is the center of the world

The fossil record validates creation
There are no fossils from Day 2
The only fossils found from Day 3 = coal + non-ligan eating bacteria
Fossils from Days 3 or 4 do not contain the record of Day 5
Fossils from Day 6 do not contain the record of Day 7
Fossils from Day 7 – are the youngest (still contain flesh and DNA) man and dinos before the flood

The gullible fall for the visual imagery suggested by evolutionist


Real science – honest science – records that –
1- Individual species simply appeared fully formed
2- Sometimes many appeared all at once – without any precursor (Pre-Cambrian explosion – Day 3)
3- The fossil record does not support Evolution
The fossil record indicated – species appeared – reproduced after their own kind – and died


Real science – honest science – records that – The fossil record does not support Evolution
The fossil record indicated – species appeared – reproduced after their own kind – and died

Additionally the fossil record proves beyond any doubt – the ORDER of creation =
Day 1 – then Day 2 followed by Day , 4, 5, 6, 7 – Just as Moses wrote it into scripture

Incremental Creation – validates scripture by recognizing real and honest science
Real and honest science points to an Intelligent Designer

Why do you – the SDA – and Ellen White preach against this revelation?
Why do you – the SDA – and all creationist push people away from the church and the truth of the Intelligent Designer

Why do you – the SDA – and Ellen White force people to choose sides
There is only one side – God’s side
Things only happened one way – God’s way


This is my message to the world - and I will stand by it until I die

[Deleted]

Greetings, what you have presented seems OK to a point,

You indicate bacteria on a fossil rock 3.5 millions ago, how did they calculate this age of rock?

D" Why do you – the SDA – and Ellen White preach against this revelation?
Why do you – the SDA – and all creationist push people away from the church and the truth of the Intelligent Designer

Why do you – the SDA – and Ellen White force people to choose sides

R" First we do not preach against evidence, only against evolution.
Nor do we force people to take sides, you do not like evolution either remember?

I have hundreds of videos on my computer, Walter Veith speaks of Creation, very differently to your view.
Hard to find the exact video I want, he speaks too long but it always interesting.

Point is, we do have different views. Same evidence.

How about you explain how God created natural muwth for his creation from day 3 and day 4. You are asking me to accept the trees died and decomposed and end up as coal?

I will come over to your view, if you can convince me that natural muwth existed and that this muwth is different to the moral muwth, that speaks of mortal death for humans.

We call your view a "flawed creation" that somehow the creation naturally dies and decays and decomposes.

Absolutely not.

Have a look ar Rev 22, which by the way is a renewed creation, not a brand new creation, so the Rev account add more details to the Gen account. But you ignore this idea....How much scripture you twist and ignore...

Kainos means renewed and neos means brand new.

SHalom

[Dave]

You indicate bacteria on a fossil rock 3.5 millions ago, how did they calculate this age of rock?

www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/1485-relative-dating
Relative dating
is used to arrange geological events, and the rocks they leave behind, in a sequence. The method of reading the order is called stratigraphy (layers of rock are called strata). Relative dating does not provide actual numerical dates for the rocks.

hraf.yale.edu/teach-ehraf/relative-and-absolute-dating-methods-in-archaeology/
What is relative dating method?
Relative dating methods estimate whether an object is younger or older than other things found at the site. Relative dating does not offer specific dates, it simply allows to determine if one artifact, fossil, or stratigraphic layer is older than another.

how did they calculate this age of rock?
Answer – no one knows the age of the rock – all we know is the order of events
Geological Time is not a measure of the clock – it is an indicator of order

In the beginning God created – Big Bang
The next step in creation = expansion (John 1:1 God spoke the word – Isa the heaven expanded)

Void - The earth was without form – chaos
Immanuel Kant 1753 – Nebular Theory

God separated the waters from the land firmaments above and below
Standard Planet Formation Theory – Stanford 1962

Our earth formed – under different temperatures and pressures – Max Plank 1902
Our earth formed as a Jupiter Sized Gas Giant Proto-planet – Otto Hardenberg 1933
Our earth formed as a Jupiter Sized Gas Giant Proto-planet – Wasanike (sp) Germany 1934
Our earth formed – under different temperatures and pressures – NASA 1969
Our earth formed – differently than our moon – NASA 1972
Our earth formed as a Jupiter Sized Gas Giant Proto-planet – J. Marvin Herndon WEDD – 2005

WEDD validates all of it – planetary science – astrophysics – our solar system – AND SCRIPTURE
FD-WEDT validates all of it – scripture and the science

The rock strata proves beyond any doubt – the ORDER of creation
The fossil record proves beyond any doubt – the ORDER of creation =
Day 1 – then Day 2 followed by Day , 4, 5, 6, 7 – Just as Moses wrote it into scripture

Incremental Creation – validates scripture by recognizing real and honest science
Real and honest science points to an Intelligent Designer

D" Why do you – the SDA – and Ellen White preach against this revelation?
Why do you – the SDA – and Ellen White force people to choose sides

R" First we do not preach against evidence, only against evolution.
ABSOLUTE BULL SHIT – you argue time at every chance –
you argue that the evidence must be wrong if it indicates that animals ate and died before Adam
you argue that the evidence must be wrong if it indicates that a tree fell over before Adam
you argue that the evidence must be wrong if it indicates that weeds and thistles grew before Adam
you argue that the evidence must be wrong if it indicates that there were other men in the world at the time of Adam

Every statement Don Patton make begins with a misrepresentation of the real science
Your Walter Veith is guilty of the same
Ken Hamm is an insult to a 5th graders intelligence

Nor do we force people to take sides, you do not like evolution either remember?
ABSOLUTE BULL SHIT – your entire argument here has been – you and Ellen White are the only correct voice – all science – all the other opinions are all false – history – science – fossils - TIME

I have hundreds of videos on my computer, Walter Veith speaks of Creation, very differently to your view.
Bring it on!

We call your view a "flawed creation" that somehow the creation naturally dies and decays and decomposes.
You are asking me to accept the trees died and decomposed and end up as coal?
Absolutely not.
How about you explain how God created natural muwth for his creation from day 3 and day 4.
You are asking me to accept the trees died and decomposed and end up as coal?

First Answer – it is what the fossil record indicates
Fossils that are ‘relatively dated’ to Day 3 – are missing from the rock strata ‘repetitively dated’ to day 5
Where did they go? – they died out and became part of the sediment of earth

Second Answer – God created the world exactly as He wanted – and it was good
Why was is it good?
You get all hung up on sin and satan changed everything because of sin and evil – how is that tov?
Why was is it good – because every fraction of it no matter the scale of the universe or the scale of man and nature – or on the microscopic scale – or on the sub-atomic scale
IS SO INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED it can only point to the Intelligent DESIGNER

Psa 19:2 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky shows His handiwork.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. In unrighteousness they suppress the truth,
Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them—for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 His invisible attributes—His eternal power and His divine nature—have been clearly seen ever since the creation of the world, being understood through the things that have been made. So people are without excuse—
Rom 1:21 for even though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. Instead, their thinking became futile, and their senseless hearts were made dark.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools.
Rom 1:23 They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image in the form of mortal man and birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the evil desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies with one another.
Rom 1:25 They traded the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to shameful passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for what is against nature.
Rom 1:27 Likewise the men abandoned natural relations with women and were burning with passion toward one another—men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Who published Evolution to the world – Post WWII America (The West)
Who leads the world in the LYGBT movement - Post WWII America (The West)
Even my gay Governor of Colorado and His Husband testifies to the truth of scripture!

You are asking me to accept the trees died and decomposed and end up as coal?
The science says - trees died before and did not decompose - that is why it ended up as coal

that natural muwth existed and that this muwth is different to the moral muwth, that speaks of mortal death for humans.

Moral death? Unclear vocabulary

First death = mortal death – death of biology – just like all animals – just like all creatures formed of the dust
POINT #1 – Adam and Eve passing on sin as a heredity trait – a change in their biology (DNA)
Too narrow an interpretation – is only a worldly interpretation
POINT #2 – Judaism and Gnostic Christianity teach (yester ra) programmed self-preservation is inherent to biology – it is the commandment to man and all the animals of Gen 1

Adam and Eve – could have the first 2 homo sapiens as in 1 man and 1 woman
OR – ADAM = all mankind – humanity – Adam and Eve are just representative of humanity
Does not have to be Adam or Eve it could be any man or any woman
BECAUSE ALL MEN ARE SINNERS

Just as ra – entropy is inherent / by-product of physical creation
(yester ra) is inherent / by-product of biological creation

(yester ra) Gen 3:6 Now the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a thing of lust for the eyes, and that the tree was desirable for imparting wisdom.
YUMMY – LUST – DESIRE

(yester tov) Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.”

Man’s choice – Free Will choice (yester ra) WORLD or (yester tov) GOD

POINT #3 - Remember the Rabbi - Eve knew she could not Jer 1:5 without bing in the world

POINT #4
Ecc 3:18 I also said in my heart, “As for the sons of man, God tests them so that they may see that they are but animals.”
Ecc 3:19 For the destiny of humankind and the destiny of animals are one and the same. As one dies, so dies the other. Both have the same breath—a human has no advantage over an animal—both are fleeting.
Ecc 3:20 Both go to one place. Both were taken from the dust, and both return to the dust.
Ecc 3:21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of man ascends upward and the animal’s spirit descends into the earth?

For the destiny of humankind and the destiny of animals are one and the same. As one dies, so dies the other

The lesson of nature – we will all die – then what?
Written in the heavens – we will all die – then what?
Written in the microscope – we will all die – then what?
Written in the sub-atomic realm – we will all die – then what?

Birth	Growth	Life		Death	Rebirth
Birth	Growth	Life		Death	Afterlife
Rosh Hashanah	Yom Kippur	Sukkot	Pirum	Pesach	Shavuot
From the beginning	Do I need to atone?	God tabernacles with man	Salvation is of the Lord	Passover Passover Passover	Pentecost
From God we came	Isa 54:13 Prov 1:8-9 Mat 19:14	Jer 1:5	John 3:16	Rom 6:23	Pentecost Communion
Birth	Growth	Life		Death	Rebirth/afterlife

Nature = birth – growth – death – and rebirth = the cycle of life – before man
All of nature – all of creation witnesses to the Glory of God and the truth of scripture

That lesson from nature – since birth you grow and come to understand from nature that eventually – you will die a mortal death. You can choose to worry about what comes after that – or not – your choice

[Deleted]

D" What is relative dating method?
Relative dating methods estimate whether an object is younger or older than other things found at the site. Relative dating does not offer specific dates, it simply allows to determine if one artifact, fossil, or stratigraphic layer is older than another.

how did they calculate this age of rock?
Answer – no one knows the age of the rock – all we know is the order of events
Geological Time is not a measure of the clock – it is an indicator of order
R" You don't believe this assumptive detective reasoning do you?

D"In the beginning God created – Big Bang
R" You support stella evolution, but not biological evolution, you astound me sometimes Dave.

D"Our earth formed as a Jupiter Sized Gas Giant Proto-planet – Otto Hardenberg 1933
R" A theory, one cannot prove, but its OK as theories about the past are all OK.

D"The rock strata proves beyond any doubt – the ORDER of creation
R" Rock strata may show preferred sites where certain animal lived before dying in that position, a great flood.


D"First Answer – it is what the fossil record indicates
R" How can you be certain? Science cannot prove the past with evidence...not possible...

SO I prefer to look at Scripture evidence, in the present, and my Bible says the Rev account of creation is a RENEWAL of the older creation before Adam sinned. NOT as you claim


You claim Rev 22 is a neos in Greek, no it is a kainos, a renewed creation.

D"The science says - trees died before and did not decompose - that is why it ended up as coal
R" Scripture says the trees did not die, nothing ever died, just went forth and multiplied.

All bacteria was free living, in a way I cannot understand.



D" That lesson from nature – since birth you grow and come to understand from nature that eventually – you will die a mortal death.
R" No Scripture does not teach God created things to die in a sinless perfect world.

Re 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: renewed creation hence as as old creation.
Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Again renewed, not brand new. No more death. renewed creation hence as as old creation.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God wipes out the SIN problem. The SIN problem caused the RA and curse of RA upon the earth, not GOD.

Re 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon,

Plants grow quite well even though there is no physical sun.

My evidence is present, in the torah and easy to read and fathom. You look for fossils of the past. Science cannot describe the past except they first make assumptions

that rock is old because the fossil
The fossil is old because of the rock it lies in.

Circular reasoning.

Assumptions like that.

No complete geologic column ever exists, only parts all over the world.

Shalom

[Dave]

D"In the beginning God created – Big Bang
R" You support stella evolution, but not biological evolution, you astound me sometimes Dave.
Mix water and limestone together you make cement – is that evolution
Melt rocks to the point they melt and mix together – is that evolution
Make some mud – add sand to it – let it dry out – now you have sand stone – is that evolution
The wind wears on the rocks until they end up as sand at the other end of the valley – is that evolution
The land clumps together and there is a separation between the waters and the land – is that evolution

What do you consider evolution – word man – define your terms - you astound me sometimes

D"Our earth formed as a Jupiter Sized Gas Giant Proto-planet – Otto Hardenberg 1933
R" A theory, one cannot prove, but its OK as theories about the past are all OK.
Theories stand as they are challenged – find the error and the theory fails
It is the predominance of the evidence that speaks the truth
WEDD and FD-WEDT satisfy both science and scripture - sorry if that offends you

D"First Answer – it is what the fossil record indicates
R" How can you be certain? Science cannot prove the past with evidence...not possible...
Prove to me that the fossil record does not validate the order of the scriptural record - men have been trying to do that since Darwin – they have all failed - as the more fossil evidence emerges – more and more it denies evolution and supports the Scriptural record – Incremental Creation

D"The science says - trees died before and did not decompose - that is why it ended up as coal
R" Scripture says the trees did not die, nothing ever died, just went forth and multiplied.
Quote me your scripture = and Ellen White does not count

[Dave]

Science cannot describe the past except they first make assumptions
that rock is old because the fossil
The fossil is old because of the rock it lies in.
Circular reasoning.

Here is why scientific time validate scripture – I will explain it to you
You will not understand – it is too complex for you – but I am excited that all science validate WEDD and FD-WEDT – I love it

Time is not linear – it is a variable
E=mc² – c² = (the speed of light)²
And the speed of light is not a constant – it slows down in water and it bends around stars
any graph of an exponent is always a curve

Young earth people who count days and years to reach 5387 overlook that
God caused time to stand still for Joshua
God caused time to run backwards for Hezekiah
Time is not linear – it is a variable
So any attempt to force linear time onto scripture – the past – or reality in general always fails

Scientific time – radiometric time – proves WEDD and FD-WEDT and scripture

Radiometric time is based on the following assumption – earth has always been the same
So the assumption is – the amount of C14 today is the same as the past
And the math is
The past amount of C14 (assumed same as today)x rate of decay = age (passage of time)

However – to look back father in time – science need isotopes with longer half-lives
There are several isotopes used – example Strontium 90
And the math is
The past amount of St90 (assumed same as today)x rate of decay = age (passage of time)

But what happens if the amount in the past is greater = more decay product today
And the math says
Amount of decay today = age

WEDD and FD-WEDT both say that the earth began as a gas giant sized protoplanet
There was a lot more of everything in the past
The more product of decay today does not represent time or age –
it represent that there was more on the past

Radiometric time dating validate that the earth was larger in the past – not older
Both radiometric time dating and relative geological time dating both agree as to the order of creation