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Post by Dave on Jan 25, 2022 17:27:11 GMT -5
gnosis.org/lectures.html Gnostic Society – Los Angeles, California: Audio and Video Lectures OnlineThis is not a Christian centered organization – when they speak they include all ancient gnostic literature of many unknown (forgotten) authors I am a Gnostic Christian – a Christian (Messianic Jew want-a-be) My theology = Jewish Theology + Jesus Christ as the Messiah- and the Gospel of the agl James, John, Paul, and Peter are authors of the agl/NT James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, Thomas, and Mary are authors of the agl/ Nag Hammadi Of 48 books in the library – 20-23 are pro-Valentinus / pro- New Testament Gospel Of those 20-23 books only 11 are directly connected to James, John, Paul, Peter, Phillip, Thomas, Several of the text are very pro-Sethian Valentinus – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – Gen 6 were angelic Sethian – no spirit – no hope – only grave – Gen 6 were sons of Seth Gnostic Society – Los Angeles, California: Audio and Video Lectures OnlineI have never seen any of their stuff – but I am unafraid of information ------------- gnosis.org/lectures.html The Greatest Treasures of Nag Hammadi"Thomas and Philip: Gospels of the Gnostic Christ" is a free, full-length presentation introducing the ten part set of lectures on the most popular and valued writings from the Nag Hammadi Library, the Gnostic writings found in Egypt in 1945. Running Time 79:52. Stephan A. Hoeller – (Istvan Hoeller)1- Grew up in Hungary under Soviet Occupation (thick accent – English as a second language = a slow talker)2- Catholic Priest 1958 3- Not sure of his education but- Professor emeritus of comparative religion at the College of Oriental Studies in Los Angeles, California 4- Is a Jungian Psychologist (google) What is Carl Jung's theory? Q: What is Carl Jung's theory? Carl Jung's theory is the collective unconscious. He believed that human beings are connected to each other and their ancestors through a shared set of experiences. We use this collective consciousness to give meaning to the world. Jung often represented the self as a circle, square, or mandala. Creating the self occurs through a process known as individuation, in which the various aspects of personality are integrated. Jung believed that disharmony between the unconscious and the conscious mind could lead to psychological problems. We are all connected to one body – one spirit The human condition is bothered with SELF disharmony between the unconscious and the conscious sub-conscious vrs conscious (yester tov) vrs (yester ra) Spirit vrs world5- Ordained as a Gnostic Priest 1967 Two of his books The Gnostic Jung and the Seven Sermons to the Dead (1982), Jung and the Lost Gospels (1989) ---------------- Robert – I Have never heard this before now – without even hearing it I told you I would review it with you – sentence by sentence – word for word I have listened to this once now – I am on fire to share it with you Does he say exactly what you want to hear - NO Does he say exactly what I would say – NO When he speaks differently than me – I understand the difference and the difference is not that much This is a dull academic lecture – it is not an inspirational uplifting church sermon This lecture is not about the entire Nag Hammadi Library – it is only focused upon the four books called GospelsGospel of the Egyptians, - validates the Trinity in the first part – then goes into an initiation ritual Gospel of Phillip, - sacramental theology – the mysteries of the sacraments – the mystery of the Bride Chamber Gospel of Thomas, - just a list of sayings by Jesus Christ Gospel of Truth, - a meditation – a commentary – I am least familiar If we are going to discuss this – we are going to do is slowly – only point at a timebcrecordings.net/freenonmem/100700.mp3Discussion #1 – the difference between Gnosticism and Mainstream Christendom’s obsession with sin – original sin Robert says – God only made Perfection – then Exk 28 proves that one angel turned against God in a rebellion and that changed all creation away from God’s Will Robert – this is not the spot for your defense – the only question you are to answer = Does he misrepresent? Sticking to the facts – no attitude! While Gnosticism simple says – something went wrong with creation in the beginning – something that had nothing to do with sin Sin is defined by the gnostic as – a missing of the markDave – what went wrong was Entropy – the Beast of Revelation – a by-product / inherent to creation17:00 – the Gnostic position – that when matter appeared from the invisible realm – multiple things went wrong that when life appeared from the invisible realm – multiple things went wrong Now – we are caught in this wrongfulness Life here in this 3D physical world is alike being in a prison house 18:00 – we wake to realize we need to escape his realm AND WE CANNOT DO IT BY OURSELVES18:20 – we are to wake up and RECOGNISE the situation we find ourselves 19:00 – gnosis vrs belief19:20 - Most Christendom teaches that believing / faith is all that is required – Roberts view – faith is more than belief it means to support Jesus 19:40 – Gnostics say – “true enough” believe is all that is required for salvation in the end But believing in the intangible is not the same as gnosis of the tangible fact20:00 – multiple salvation figures in the past – Jesus is the last Before Robert gets all excited – this is a true statement Abraham - Moses – Joshua – King Cyrus – within scripture Horus, Mithras, Zoroaster – outside of scripture The WORLD was primed and ready for a Messiah to come 20:50 – WE HAVE NEVER BEEN LEFT WITHOUT HELP 21:00 – salvation = takes two – you reaching up – and God reaching down And when the two touch – salvation occurs Dave – belief = the reaching up part – YES Good – do for it – do not stop John 3:16 – belief is all that is required for salvation in the end And when the two touch = the help from the promised Comforter And when the two touch – and you are filled by the HS – Baptized by the HS - you become First Fruits22:20 – Christianity is not a do-it-yourself project 23:00 – We cannot do it by ourselves 24:00 – Babies cry – not here again (reference to reincarnation) YES – Jewish theology has the option for a do-over – because God is fair and we all receive an equal opportunity to find the Lord I will stop here for now – do not post pages of your defense for your satan – discuss his words not your doctrineCatholics require sin – original sin – and an original sinner other than man to justify their doctrine – so they invent Catholic satan – this is Roberts doctrine But Robert also admits that without his satan – man would have sinned anyway Robert claims that original sinner was an angelJude tells us that the sinning angels are locked away in chains Therefore Robert is left with no satan left on earth – or the scripture of Jude is wrong Jews – Gnostics – God created and here it is – tov and ra in a balance – everything created by Him for Him – including the archon – including the Beast of Revelation – the serpent race we call devils and satanas Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities (archon) , or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Jews – Gnostics – God created and here it is – tov and ra in a balance – everything created by Him for Him – easily rediscovered by any serious seeker Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Psa 19:2 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky shows His handiwork. Intelligent Design – in nature – supported by all scientific empirical evidenceTotally contradictory to your everything was TOV until it was all changed/spoiled by your satan
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Post by Dave on Feb 2, 2022 8:22:13 GMT -5
D" Jesus died for our sins so that we do not Have toR" You are avoiding my thrust Question Did Adam kill the sheep on his own accord, as the Gnostic torah teachings imply? Or did Jesus ask Adam to do the sacrifice first, as the Moses torah teachings imply? RP" A mischief maker must die for making mischief. You do not have such a being. I pity your misunderstanding of Scripture. Jesus did not cause the mischief, neither did God, but one opposing GOD did.The serpent lied and deceived Eve with lying, saying nobody will surely die when they sin. But they did and they will, including the mischief maker. D" You simply deny God and His words
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.R" You just goofed, posting a verse that is a response to Adam, a response to Adam's sinning. A response because of the verse I gave you, you ignore. Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, John 3:16 is a response to the mischief maker, making mischief to the womb of the HS, containing the living given force of both Adam and Eve, and all future children through them. Your John 3 :16 also has "FAITH" in the solution. In order to be saved by Jesus, you have to by faith allow His spirit to rule inside you. Seriously – are you being serious? I have read this section over and over – and I have to ask – are you serious?One statement at a timeQuestion Did Adam kill the sheep on his own accord, as the Gnostic torah teachings imply? Or did Jesus ask Adam to do the sacrifice first, as the Moses torah teachings imply? Word game Gnostic Torah - it is obvious you have an ass and you love to show it Did Adam kill the sheep on his own accord, as the Gnostic teachings imply?Are you just making up information? Are you deliberately misrepresenting the facts? Please quote your source – Where could you have gotten this idea? The sacrifice made by Adam was his mortal life – DUHRP" A mischief maker must die for making mischief. You do not have such a being. .Please stop misrepresenting me and scripture Adan sinned by disobeying God’s commandment - Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. R" You just goofed, posting a verse that is a response to Adam, a response to Adam's sinning. A response because of the verse I gave you, you ignore. Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, I am sorry Robert – I don’t understand you www.christianity.com/wiki/god/what-does-god-mean-by-my-grace-is-sufficient-for-you.html“… read 2 Corinthians 12:9 once again to be reminded that God’s grace alone is sufficient for us. There is nothing or no one else that can do what God can do.” 2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. What is God’s Grace?Answer – God’s love is UNREQUITED Answer – God loves us – even tho we are sinners Answer – God loves even the wicked Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, You take this passage out of context - but you don’t care Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; YES – Adam became mortal – man will die a mortal death – correctGen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it—dying thou dost die.' God said - Die (present tense) + surely will die (future perfect tense)Serpent said – NOT Die (present tense) + surely will die (future perfect tense)Rom 6:23 For sin’s payment is death, but God’s gracious gift is eternal life in Messiah Yeshua our Lord. Hmmmm? Who lied? – Only the serpent agrees with scripture – precept upon precept, line upon lineJohn 3:16 is a response to the mischief maker, making mischief to the womb of the HS, containing the living given force of both Adam and Eve, and all future children through them. Your John 3 :16 also has "FAITH" in the solution. In order to be saved by Jesus, you have to by faith allow His spirit to rule inside you. Hmmmmm? You also agree with the serpent!Seriously – are you being serious? I have read this section over and over – and I have to ask – are you serious?---------- Original SinDiscussion #1 – the difference between Gnosticism and Mainstream Christendom’s obsession with sin – original sin Catholics require sin – original sin – and an original sinner other than man to justify their doctrine – so they invent Catholic satan – this is Roberts doctrine Robert says – God only made Perfection – then Ezk 28 proves that one angel turned against God in a rebellion and that changed all creation away from God’s Will But Robert also admits that without his satan – man would have sinned anyway Basically – the Roman Christendom view = satan is to blame for everything – satan sinned first – it his satan’s fault – then satan tricked Even into sinning – but it wasn’t her fault – satan made her do it Basically – the Roman Christendom view = man has an excuse satan made me do it The Jewish view – God made everything – the good and the bad = the tov and the raMan is in the image of God – who came down to witness here – then returned to heaven From God we came – we are here to Jer 1:5 – and upon mortal death we return to God for judgment www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/judaism-s-rejection-of-original-sinIssues in Jewish Ethics: Judaism’s Rejection of Original SinCategory - Issues in Jewish Ethics Reference- Jewish Ethics Saint Augustine (354-430) was the first theologian to teach that man is born into this world in a state of sin. … The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful. the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and why isn’t man a perfect being – because we have bodies of biology that had SELF-preservation needswww.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13761-sinSIN: By: Joseph Jacobs, Judah David Eisenstein Under the Jewish theocracy, wilful disregard of the positive, or wilful infraction of the negative, commands of God as proclaimed by Moses and interpreted by the Rabbis; it thus includes crimes against God and crimes against society or an individual member thereof. Original Sin.Man is responsible for sin because he is endowed with free will ("beḥirah"); yet he is by nature frail, and the tendency of the mind is to evil: "For the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Gen. viii. 21; Yoma 20a; Sanh. 105a). Dave’s paraphrase - Man is responsible for sin because he is endowed with free – man’s individual and personal choice he is by nature frail – man is nature (biology) therefore frail For the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth – SELF – desire, lust, greedTherefore God in His mercy allowed man to repent and be forgiven. Jewish theologians are divided in regard to the cause of this so-called "original sin"; some teach that it was due to Adam's yielding to temptation in eating of the forbidden fruit and has been inherited by his descendants; … Rom 5:12 + Rom 5:19 – the idea of Adam’s decedents inheriting the sin condition = it is Adam’s fault Add Roberts satan and it was satan’s fault that Eve sinned and Eve’s fault that Adam sinned and it is Adam’s fault that we all sin – IS A BLAME GAMEthe majority, however, do not hold Adam responsible for the sins of mankind. The Zohar pictures Adam as receiving all the departed souls at his resting-place in the cave of Machpelah and inquiring of each soul the reason of its presence, whereupon the soul laments: "Wo unto me! thou art the cause of my departure from the world." Adam answers: "Verily, I have transgressed one precept and was punished; but see how many precepts and commandments of the Lord thou hast transgressed!" R. Jose said that every soul, before departing, visits Adam, and is convinced that it must blame its own wickedness, for there is no death without sin (Zohar, Bereshit, 57b). R. Ḥanina b. Dosa said: "It is not the wild ass that kills; it is sin that causes death" (Ber. 33a). I have never read this before – but YES – agree 100%Adam answers: "Verily, I have transgressed one precept and was punished; but see how many precepts and commandments of the Lord thou hast transgressed!" Each and every man is a unique independent individual – a human BEING Each and every man is responsible for his own fate – barring divine intervention Rom 5:12 + Rom 5:19 – Adam is the Hebrew word for man – mankind – humanity What is true of Adam = IS TRUE of all humanity = we are all AdamWhat about Hebrew satan?100% real – an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord 1- very few references within the ahl/OT – Job - 2 Sam24+1Chr21 / Zec 3 2- every reference = an angel of the Lord in service to the Lord – Heaven’s Prosecutor What about Jewish devil – Jewish evil spirits – Jewish ra forces100% real and in your face 1- the inner struggle – (yester ra) vrs (yester tov) 2- The Serpent in the garden 3- Gen 3:15 – man vrs world 4- Gen 3:15 – man vrs satan’s seed 5- King Solomon – Beelzebub and the shedim – a biological race 6- Lilith 7- ‘other gods’ = 33 of them named within scripture (Freemasonry 33rd level) 8- chimeras – satyrs 9- Giants – Goliath – Jericho Nephilim (Rephiem) the Sons of Anak – 7 tribes of Amorite 10- evil spirits – ghosts Jesus Christ walks upon the earthMat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. The agl/NT offers definition to the theology – it does not replace or rewrite anythingWhat about Jewish devil – Jewish evil spirits – Jewish ra forces 100% real and in your face #1-#10the great dragon … that old serpent, called the Devil, and satanas, which deceiveth the whole world:Jews – Gnostics – God created and here it is – tov and ra in a balance – everything created by Him for Him – including the archon – including the Beast of Revelation – the serpent race we call devils and satanas Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. (tov – because it was exactly as God designed it – engineered it – intelligent design)Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities (archon) , or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Jews – Gnostics – God created and here it is – tov and ra in a balance – everything created by Him for Him – easily rediscovered by any serious seeker Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Psa 19:2 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky shows His handiwork. Intelligent Design – in nature – supported by all scientific empirical evidence
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2022 15:57:46 GMT -5
Jews "Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful."
R" Nice.
Rob believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. (this includes without inherent RA too).Like some Jewish teachers, we see death as a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin. Man sins because man chooses to sin, since we are not longer a perfect being, we have become fallen due to Adam's original sin.
I do not agree with the last statement, man is NOT ' he is inherently sinful'.
Man is not born sinning, we become sinners because we sin, and often many of us sin from even inside the womb, from senses we process, we learn to sin from choosing to sin. Unless you are protected from birth by the Nazarene Vow, without the HS ruling over you from birth, we will as babies choose to sin because of our inherited propensities within us. However if you do not have this influence, you will become a baby born sinning into the world.
Dave you do not see that a prosecuting attorney has a conflict of interest if that attorney helps the victim to sin, and than prosecutes the victim for that sin. I would not call this being a prosecuting attorney?
Have you considered this, in the book of Job?
Second, another conflict of interest is, the attorney destroys your property so the attorney can prosecute you because of your depressed condition. Since when are attorneys allowed to be involved in your private affairs, to the extent of destroying your property and personal affects?
You have twisted very much indeed the functional role of a prosecuting attorney?
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 3, 2022 3:57:10 GMT -5
Did you listen to the preentation? Or just criticise what you did not hear?
Rob believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent Make up your mind – man has no spirit of his own – or man does
(this includes without inherent RA too). (yester ra) comes from our biology – a by-product of biology – inherent to biology - not our soul/spirit
like some Jewish teachers, we see death as a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin. Agree – mortal death is the wages of sin and all men are sinners
Man sins because man chooses to sin, YES – it is always man’s choice – stop blaming the sin upon another
Dave you do not see that a prosecuting attorney has a conflict of interest if that attorney helps the victim to sin, and than prosecutes the victim for that sin. I would not call this being a prosecuting attorney? It is not a sin to obey the Lord - NEVER
Have you considered this, in the book of Job? It is not a sin to obey the Lord - NEVER
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2022 15:27:00 GMT -5
RP"Dave you do not see that a prosecuting attorney has a conflict of interest if that attorney helps the victim to sin, and than prosecutes the victim for that sin. I would not call this being a prosecuting attorney?
D" It is not a sin to obey the Lord - NEVER
RP" Have you considered this, in the book of Job?
D"It is not a sin to obey the Lord - NEVER
R" OH, so God no longer obeys His own laws? God can override his own laws? God can take away your living before you have a chance to choose God as salvation? I would call this wounding that person, and hence a sin.
You have a good angel being told to do anything he wants to do in his power by the Lord, so the Lord does not mind telling the angel to remove or steal Job's property, to murder and kill his family.
If what you are saying is so, why would anybody want to worship a God who allows angels to kill them, and steal from them, for no reason? Job did nothing wrong, but the angel asks God to allow the angel to break His commandments, and God agrees to the angel breaking His commands. You say the angel is obeying God's directives?
You twist the whole presentation to begin with. But I will assume you are correct.
OK what kind of GOD do you have? I will tell you, a tyrant. Not a GOD who follows his own laws, or is rationale or loving or predictable?
And you wish to support a GOD like that? One who has no laws you can logically find stable for living? Who knows what will happen to you under this kind of Tyrant? Maybe one day you are tested and tried again, until you die?
Why you even have a GOD who cannot create biology without RA embedded in it. You have a GOD who allows one good angel to break His laws. You even have the audacity to say GOD can break his own laws.
Your theories are like straws, nothing is solid and dependable or certain. You have a irrational god who is a tyrant.
You do not even read why the opposer opposed God to begin with?
Have you not put a hedge around Job?
Who is this hedge referring to ? Dave??
To the opposer of course, why else is this Hebrew functional title used here?
God is opposing the opposer with this hedge, and the opposer is opposing God because of the hedge affect. Salvation is a hedge. Have you ever considered that? What is a hedge used for? To ward off enemies.
Funny how Dave has no enemies, only robotic lions and archons and spiders and cockroachs with ra affects.
If the RA causes the humans to lose their salvation hold, and lose their hedge, how is this a passive RA affect? It's not. Its a free will deliberate intention on the part of the opposer to oppose the hedge, thus oppose GOD of the HEDGE, and destroy God rights to save that human.
And you never write discuss or application Dave, just pithy brevity. "It is not a sin to obey the Lord - NEVER" What kind of answer is this?
I love my kind of GOD because He is loving, and kind and predictable and follows His own laws exactly to the yod and tittle. My God is dealing with a sinning angel who wishes to challenge the reason why God saves some sinning humans from the sinning angel's kingdom. So GOD is open to the challenge.
Stop making the twist as you do. God is dealing with a sin problem. You have never considered this.
SHalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 5, 2022 5:53:13 GMT -5
RP"Dave you do not see that a prosecuting attorney has a conflict of interest if that attorney helps the victim to sin, and than prosecutes the victim for that sin. I would not call this being a prosecuting attorney? RP" Have you considered this, in the book of Job?
Robert – you simply repeat your attitude – you simply repeat your Catholic doctrine Where is your scripture – to back up your attitude?
Let’s consider the Book of Job – precept upon precept, line upon line Please list all the verses where the heavenly Prosecutor causes any harm to Job, as you claim
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Here is your HEDGE God has around Job – protecting Job from the WORLD Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Just who is afflicting Job?
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. Just who is afflicting Job?
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Without God’s HEDGE – Job was exposed to WORLD + WORLD + WORLD
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, … cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; The Contest is between Man vrs World + Man vrs Archon
D"It is not a sin to obey the Lord - NEVER R" OH, so God no longer obeys His own laws? God can override his own laws?
Robert – you simply repeat your attitude – you simply repeat your Catholic doctrine Where is your scripture – to back up your attitude?
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Deu 32:35 Vengeance is Mine, and payback, for the time when their foot staggers. Surely their day of disaster is near—what is prepared rushes on them.
Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
Jeremiah 51:56 For the destroyer is coming against her, against Babylon, And her mighty men will be captured, Their bows are shattered; For the Lord is a God of recompense, He will fully repay.
Isa 11:1 Then a shoot will come forth out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch will bear fruit out of His roots. Isa 11:2 The Ruach of Adonai will rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and insight, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Adonai. Isa 11:3 His delight will be in the fear of Adonai. He will not judge by what His eyes see, nor decide by what His ears hear. Isa 11:4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, and decide with fairness for the poor of the land. He will strike the land with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
Psa 2:9 You shall break the nations with an iron scepter. You shall dash them in pieces like a potter’s jar.”
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The One riding on it is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness. Rev 19:12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and many royal crowns are on His head. He has a name written that no one knows except Himself. Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which He is called is “the Word of God.”
R" OH, so God no longer obeys His own laws? God can override his own laws? I would call this wounding that person, and hence a sin. YES Robert – your concept of as feel Good God of Tov and Love only is a myth
You have a good angel being told to do anything he wants to do in his power by the Lord, so the Lord does not mind telling the angel to remove or steal Job's property, to murder and kill his family. Please post your scripture where Hebrew satan dose any of this? It is WORLD vrs Man – and Man vrs the Archon – Gen 3:15
If what you are saying is so, why would anybody want to worship a God who allows angels to kill them, and steal from them, for no reason?
God loves you enough – to let you go – and you despise God for your Free Will?
Job did nothing wrong, but the angel asks God to allow the angel to break His commandments, and God agrees to the angel breaking His commands. You say the angel is obeying God's directives? Please show me your scripture where God disobeys Himself Please show me your scripture where Hebrew satan does anything to Job
OK what kind of GOD do you have? I will tell you, a tyrant. Not a GOD who follows his own laws, or is rationale or loving or predictable? Did God forgive Adan? – NO – Adam had to die a mortal death God is absolute – God’s word is Law – break the Law and die God is absolute – you call God a tyrant
God loves you enough – to let you go – and you despise God for your Free Will?
And you wish to support a GOD like that? One who has no laws you can logically find stable for living? Who knows what will happen to you under this kind of Tyrant? Maybe one day you are tested and tried again, until you die?
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great trouble, such as has not happened since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Mat 24:22 And unless those days were cut short, no one would be delivered. But for the sake of the chosen, those days will be cut short.
Why you even have a GOD who cannot create biology without RA embedded in it. Biology without the programming for self-preservation just dies
You have a GOD who allows one good angel to break His laws. Where is your scripture – all you present is attitude
You even have the audacity to say GOD can break his own laws. Please present your scripture where God disobeys Himself
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Post by Dave on Feb 5, 2022 12:18:15 GMT -5
Robert has a double standard in the definition of ra Robert employs – floating definitions – so the definitions always fits his doctrine Robert treats tov and ra as good and evil
Because Robert has a Catholic god of tov only that can do no ra (evil) He needs another god like source for the ra (evil) A second creator – that changes God’s Plan against God’s Will A source for (ra) that he now defines as (sin) – that spoils all of God’s Plan against God’s Will Robert needs another source for his sin – someone else to blame all the world’s problems upon
Jewish truth = God is absolute – the is Only One True Creator
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being.
Even the ra – entropy
Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.
Even the ra – The Beast of Revelation
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.
Even the ra – The Beast of Revelation – our real struggle
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places
Even the ra – The Beast of Revelation – that ancient serpent
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down—the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world.
Even the ra – God cursed the ground
Gen 3:17 Then to the man He said, “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate of the tree which I commanded you, saying, ‘You must not eat of it’: Cursed is the ground because of you—with pain will you eat of it all the days of your life. Gen 3:18 Thorns and thistles will sprout for you. You will eat the plants of the field, Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow will you eat food, until you return to the ground, since from it were you taken. For you are dust, and to dust will you return.”
Jer 4:27 For thus says Adonai, “The whole land will be wasteland, yet I will not totally destroy it. Jer 4:28 Therefore, the earth will mourn and the heavens above grow black. For I have spoken, I have purposed, nor will I relent, nor turn from it.
Gen 6:7 – God destroyed an entire planet filled with life Deu 32:35 - God is vengeful Nah 1:2 - God is jealous – vengeful – furious - wrath Isa 11:1-4 - He will strike the land … and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Psa 2:9 – God will - break the nations with an iron scepter. You shall dash them in pieces Rev 19:-13 – Christ - judges and makes war in righteousness - His eyes are like a flame of fire - He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which He is called is “the Word of God.”
R" OH, so God no longer obeys His own laws? God can override his own laws? I would call this wounding that person, and hence a sin. YES Robert – your concept of as feel Good God of Tov and Love only is a myth
Jewish truth = God is absolute – the is Only One True Creator
OK what kind of GOD do you have? I will tell you, a tyrant. Not a GOD who follows his own laws, or is rationale or loving or predictable?
Even your out of context verse Ex 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Did God forgive Adam? – NO – Adam had to die a mortal death God is absolute – God’s word is Law – break the Law and die God is absolute – you call God a tyrant
God loves you enough – to let you go – and you despise God for your Free Will?
Why you even have a GOD who cannot create biology without RA embedded in it. Biology without the programming for self-preservation just dies “the programming for self-preservation” – is simply creation obeying God And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, Why is it a sin to obey God? – even for the animals?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 17:01:43 GMT -5
D" Please list all the verses where the heavenly Prosecutor causes any harm to Job, as you claim R" You have a point, the language is written with GOD in control.
D"Here is your HEDGE God has around Job – protecting Job from the WORLD R" world only? yet archons and the chief archon live in this world? but you write world only?
07753. Kws suwk, Hedge, used in 3 verses only.
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge <suwk> about him,
Job 10:11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh , and hast fenced <suwk> me with bones.
What do bones do, ie rib cage, it functions as a hedge, a protective barrier.
The only clue to this hedge is in Hosea
Ho 2:6 ¶ Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths. 7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now. Ho 2:8 For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal. God builds the hedge to keep humans from seeking after other idols in the world ie, Baal.
Let's see Jeff Benner
) /J\ (/J\ SWK) — Hedge: To surround as hedge of protection. [df: KwV] [freq. 3] (vf: Paal) |kjv: hedge, fence| {str: 7753} Nm) /J\ (/J\ SWK) — I. Booth: A dwelling place. [ms: Ko] [df: KV] II. Branch: As used for making booths. [df: KwV] [freq. 5] |kjv: tabernacle, den, pavilion, covert, bough| {str: 5520, 7900}
The word has two forms, the verb form (incomplete action) to hedge, or to protect. AND the noun form (complete action) .
La 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: ....
The protection-tabernacle is mentioned here.
Ps 10:9 He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his den: Ps 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: Ps 76:2 In Salem also is his tabernacle,
Jer 25:31 ......
OK I try to find suitable English words for all this Jeff Benner uses.
One could use "tabernacled/tabernacle" One could use "housed/home"
Job 1:10 Hast not thou "housed" him, Job 10:11 Thou "housed" me with bones. Ho 2:6 Therefore, behold, I will "house" up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths.
La 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his "home", as if it were of a garden: Ps 10:9 He lieth in wait secretly as a lion in his "home" Ps 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his "home": Ps 76:2 In Salem also is his "home",
OK, this housed structure is used to make a home, a safe dwelling from the world and the elements of the world, such as cold, heat, movement, and also enemies like lions.
However consider this LAST passage from the last use of "housed/home"
One has to consider the language of God's words, when SIN and RA abound, WHOM is in control and WHAT consequences there are:-
Jer 25:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations,
There is that "controversy" theme, Dave dislikes. GOD has to deal with a "SIN" problem.
he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. God gives the wicked to the sword. OK, WHOM does the swording?
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
RA goes forth and a great whirlwind (the word RUWACH is NOT used here) so we have a different WHOM suggested here? Remember the medium from GOD includes both good flow and evil flow. Does the evil flow, come from GOD, or somebody else? This is something you choose to ignore. Is the chief sinning angel responsible as the AGENT for SIN?
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. 34 Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel. 35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape. 36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture. Here it says for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture. GOD is in control, but GOD is not the WHOM who does the destroying here.
37 And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD. 38 He hath forsaken his covert, "home"
GOD is angry, yes, but not angry to sin, and GOD has forsaken the "HOME", but some other WHOM, does the RA and the whirlwind affect, the spoiling of the land. as the lion: for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.(KJV)
A simile is made here for a clue to the WHOM, "as the lion" for the "oppressor" because of the lion's fierce anger.
------------------------------------------- Dave uses this language to make it seem GOD is the actual destroyer of the HOME around Job.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. D" Just who is afflicting Job?
R" God housed JOB with a blessed home. So GOD can forsake the HOME and cause the HOME to become "unhoused" so it is open to attack by predators. And GOD agrees to this challenge. What you are not seeing here Dave, is the "unhoused home" of Job is now open to attack by predators and spoilers. AND lions. Now I ask you, is it a normal function of a prosecutor attorney to ask for a human's home to become unhoused, so worldly predators can attack and spoil Job's home, so we assume Job sins because of this, and thus the attorney can prosecute Job for that sinning? I would term this a conflict of interest.
The Hebrew word used here "ha-satan" offers a functional clue to your so called prosecutor attorney. He is termed an opposer, who opposes things. You agree the term is used to oppose humans, but here the term is used of a being opposing God's statements about Job. You ignore all this.
D"Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. Just who is afflicting Job?
R" The opposer is. The opposer is asking GOD to unhouse Job's Home, so the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. The question is WHOM does the spoiling once GOD agrees to unhouse Job's HOME?
D"Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. R" You post this verse but neglect what the verse says about WHOM does the spoiling.
D" Without God’s HEDGE – Job was exposed to WORLD + WORLD + WORLD R" verse does not say that. "Behold, JOB is in thine hand" Whose hand? Satan's hand, the Opposers hand.
So WHOM does the spoiling? The opposer does. Who agrees to unhouse the home of JOB, God does.
D"The Contest is between Man vrs World + Man vrs Archon R" contest? what contest? It's a battle over the sinning problem, a controversy of the OPPOSER.
D"Where is your scripture – to back up your attitude? R" Does the opposer spoil the unhoused HOMES of humans?
Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. 9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed. 10 The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken.
Ps 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Pr 19:12 ¶ The king's wrath is as the roaring of a lion;
Pr 28:15 ¶ As a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; so is a wicked ruler over the poor people
Isa 5:29 Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it.
Eze 22:25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion 1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:(KJV)
Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (who is this accuser? ) Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Something wrong with your prosecutor theory Dave. It says here the opposer is a simile of a lion, and an accuser of humans.
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D"Please show me your scripture where Hebrew satan does anything to Job
R" Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power;
D"God is absolute – God’s word is Law – break the Law and die God is absolute R" OK if God is absolute, WHOM does the SPOILING of the unhoused Home of JOB? Not GOD, because GOD only unhoused the home of JOB
Not the world, because the predators did not know the home of Job was suddenly unhoused.
The lion/serpent/adversary/opposer/sinning angel did, when GOD said to him "all that he hath is in thy power; " The lion/serpent/adversary/opposer/sinning angel arranged humans to do his dirty work. Yet you fail to see this and ignore the verse.
D"Biology without the programming for self-preservation just dies R" no it doesn't. A sinless biological machine, is housed as a home by GOD, and would never die. What do you think the HEDGE means? It is a housed HOME, made and installed by GOD, never to die. God lives so the HOME also lives forever.
D"Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being. Even the ra – entropy R" NO Dave, GOD creates the RA from sadness NOT gladness.
You make RA some natural by product of creation and matter.NO.
RA is the consequence of SIN.
SIN was not made through HIM, SIN did not come into being because of GOD.
Yes God allows SIN to be observed, but GOD did not bring SIN into existence.
You twisted the verses.
D"Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.
Even the ra – The Beast of Revelation R" OH so GOD created RA on purpose and therefore ALLOWED SIN to occur, only in humans. And the archons who help the humans to SIN are NOT sinning themselves. These archons are just dumb animals doing what dumb animals of RA do best, they play havoc on humans on purpose. Designed by God to do this.
You twist RA and SIN to be TWO separate things, one is bad and other is natural. You are wrong to consider this idea.
D"Even the ra – God cursed the ground R" God cursed the ground AFTER Adam sinned. You ignore the SIN problem.
D"“the programming for self-preservation” – is simply creation obeying God And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, Why is it a sin to obey God? – even for the animals? R" since when does the fruitful and multiply also include dying? It doesn't.
You will never understand Dave because you have no other creatures sinning except humans. You have no concept of lion sinning, or archons sinning, or angels sinning. Hence your view is flawed.
All you see is man sinning, and all other created creatures are programmed with RA and life, but without the ability to make free will choices.
And you ignore deliberately that one verse that destroys you view. "cherub chata" in Ezekiel 28
Of how one verse changes all the other pieces, suddenly they fall into place.
Rabbi Apple says that one angel sinned, is a simile of King Tyre. You ignore this Australian Jewish Rabbi.
Ancient Chinese depict the temptor as a secret creature under covering causing 4 precessors to the first sin of the human. Implies the temptor also sinned 4 times as well to make these as false reports.
The Waldenses also had a devil destroying God's love from AD 100 long before your Rome Edit. You ignore my evidence, even Bible evidence and stick to stubborn Jews whose father is of the Devil, which Jesus opposed and said He was a liar from the beginning.
You have no concept of angels sinning, hence your view is Gnostic as so called superior knowledge.
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of GNOSIS falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.
Now you also ignore the writings of Paul to avoid this gnosis preached in Christian faith.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 7, 2022 0:11:58 GMT -5
D" Please list all the verses where the heavenly Prosecutor causes any harm to Job, as you claim R" You have a point, the language is written with GOD in control. YES God is absolute – God’s Plan / God’s Will
D"Here is your HEDGE God has around Job – protecting Job from the WORLD R" world only? yet archons and the chief archon live in this world? but you write world only? YES – This 3D world is the domain / the kingdom of the Beast – the serpent race – that we call devils and satanas
Without the HEDGE – Job is at the mercy of the WORLD just like anyone else
OK, this housed structure is used to make a home, a safe dwelling from the world and the elements of the world, such as cold, heat, movement, and also enemies like lions.
OK – I agree – the HEDGE was like a protecting house – an enclosure of protection
Jer 25:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, There is that "controversy" theme, Dave dislikes. GOD has to deal with a "SIN" problem.
H7379 - רִב – rib - From H7378; a contest (personal or legal): + adversary, cause, chiding, contend (-tion), controversy, multitude [from the margin], pleading, strife, strive (-ing), suit.
Your use of the term “The Great Controversy” as the SDA teach it – is a Zoroastrian theology Two gods – a god of tov and a god of ra locked in an eternal conflict YES – I reject this Catholic / pagan teaching
The Gnostic Contest – is Gen 3:15 – man vrs world + man vrs the archon – the serpent race as in gen 3 – as in Rev 12 Man vrs world – God cursed the ground – the struggle for food and shelter Woman vrs the natural cycle of childbirth – pain Why does the woman suffer pain – because she knows she is birthing life only to die because of her LUST (Rom 5:12 – 5:19) Man vrs satan’s seed – the serpent race – the archon – that we call devils and satanas
he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. God gives the wicked to the sword. OK, WHOM does the swording? Jesus Christ at the Second Coming
Jer 25:32 Thus says Adonai-Tzva’ot: “Evil will soon go forth from nation to nation. A great storm is being stirred up from the uttermost parts of the earth. RA goes forth and a great whirlwind (the word RUWACH is NOT used here)
H5591 - סְעָרָה - From H5590; a hurricane: - storm (-y), tempest, whirlwind. H5590 – סָעַר - A primitive root; to rush upon; by implication to toss (transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively): - be (toss with) tempest (-uous), be sore troubled, come out as a (drive with the, scatter with a) whirlwind.
so we have a different WHOM suggested here? Remember the medium from GOD includes both good flow and evil flow. Does the evil flow, come from GOD, or somebody else? This is something you choose to ignore. Is the chief sinning angel responsible as the AGENT for SIN?
Robert – you are guilty of pulling verses out of context to corrupt their meaning
Where does the ra come from out of the nations = greed – lust – covetness = man What is this passage about? – Islam and the end of days
Adam Clark Commentary = Jeremiah 25:32 Evil shall go forth from nation to nation - One nation after another shall fall before the Chaldeans.
Jer 25:33-35 - Here it says for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture. GOD is in control, but GOD is not the WHOM who does the destroying here. YES – God is in control
Jer 25:28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink. Jer 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
37 And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
GOD is angry, yes, but not angry to sin, Why do you think God sins? – who says this – only you do – so you can argue against your own statement God has sentenced all sinners to a mortal death God had sentenced every unrepentive soul to the Second Death God performs righteous judgement – YES every man deserves death God does it – deliberately – on purpose Why do you call God a sinner?
------------------------------------------- Dave uses this language to make it seem GOD is the actual destroyer of the HOME around Job. Correction – scripture God withheld the HEDGE
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. D" Just who is afflicting Job? R" God housed JOB with a blessed home. So GOD can forsake the HOME and cause the HOME to become "unhoused" so it is open to attack by predators. And GOD agrees to this challenge. What you are not seeing here Dave, is the "unhoused home" of Job is now open to attack by predators and spoilers. AND lions. YES – absolutely agree – Job is exposed to the WORLD just like everyone else
The Hebrew word used here "ha-satan" offers a functional clue to your so called prosecutor attorney. He is termed an opposer, You agree the term is used to oppose humans, but here the term is used of a being opposing God's statements about Job. You ignore all this. Why is it a sin to be honest with the Lord? The story of Job is the story of every man – it is easy to be a Christian when all is well – keep your faith as the Germans shovel your gassed dead body into furnaces to destroy the evidence
R" The opposer is. The opposer is asking GOD to unhouse Job's Home, so the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. The question is WHOM does the spoiling once GOD agrees to unhouse Job's HOME? You just answered your own question - so the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon
D"Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. R" You post this verse but neglect what the verse says about WHOM does the spoiling. As you just pointed out - the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon
D" Without God’s HEDGE – Job was exposed to WORLD + WORLD + WORLD R" verse does not say that. As you just pointed out - the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon
So WHOM does the spoiling? - As you just pointed out - the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon
D"The Contest is between Man vrs World + Man vrs Archon R" contest? what contest? It's a battle over the sinning problem, a controversy of the OPPOSER. Man is the sinner – why do you need to blame another for your own shortcoming? Who was the man that disobey God – Eve – then Adam – Roma 5:12 + Rom 5:19
D"Where is your scripture – to back up your attitude? R" Does the opposer spoil the unhoused HOMES of humans? YES – the Beast of revelation – the serpent race – that we call devils and satanas As you just pointed out - the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Paul says they are our real struggle (Eph 6:12) Paul also tells us that they were made by God for God (Col 1:16)
Job 4:8 Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. 9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed. 10 The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken. YES – God is the destroyer – He is the roaring Lion – You God of tov only dishes out righteous judgment on a mass scale – an entire plant twice -
Ps 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. Pr 19:12 ¶ The king's wrath is as the roaring of a lion; Pr 28:15 ¶ As a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; so is a wicked ruler over the poor people Isa 5:29 Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it. YES – God is the destroyer – He is the roaring Lion – You God of tov only dishes out righteous judgment on a mass scale – an entire plant twice
1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:(KJV) YES – the devil is also described as a roaring lion It is the mission of the archon to keep you sidetracked here in this world so you have no time to devote to the Holy Spirit
Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (who is this accuser? ) YES the Beast of Revelation – that old serpent race – that we call devils and satanas The Great Contest - the accuser of our brethren – archon vrs man – Gen 3:15
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Something wrong with your prosecutor theory Dave. It says here the opposer is a simile of a lion, and an accuser of humans. 1- you simply mixt two different definitions together so you can claim confusion 2- the Beast of revelation is not an angel of the Lord 3- the Beast of Revelation is NOT your Hebrew satan 4- the Beast of revelation has offspring – satan’s seed – your angel idea does not work 5- the Beast of Revelation – appeared fully formed and functional in a plurality 6- your angel idea was God’s most cherished friend 7- you deny that Adam was charged to be the covering cherub (guardian) of the garden 8- you deny that it is Adam’s (man’s) sin / disobedience that caused our mortality
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D"Please show me your scripture where Hebrew satan does anything to Job R" Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; YES – and the prosecutor was right there to document each and every sin by Job – and to save Job’s life
D"God is absolute – God’s word is Law – break the Law and die God is absolute R" OK if God is absolute, WHOM does the SPOILING of the unhoused Home of JOB? Not GOD, because GOD only unhoused the home of JOB – Correct As you just pointed out - the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon
Not the world, because the predators did not know the home of Job was suddenly unhoused. Please make up your mind – double speaking – flip flopping within the same post
D"Biology without the programming for self-preservation just dies R" no it doesn't. A sinless biological machine, is housed as a home by GOD, and would never die. Sooner or later – your biology must eat to survive Ripping plants out of the ground and destroying them to feed herbivores is equally ra as eating meat for carnivores D"Biology without the programming for self-preservation just dies - without ra – they would starve to death
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth R" since when does the fruitful and multiply also include dying? It doesn't. How can a fruit tree reproduce without ra? How can a virus reproduce without ra
Your vegetarian shark idea belongs in kindergarten somewhere Not supported by scripture Not supported by the empirical evidence Violated Rom 1:19 + Psa 19:2 + Gen 1:31 (it is tov – including the choshek)
D"Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being. Even the ra – entropy R" NO Dave, - Stop denying scripture – your tov only god idea does not fly
You make RA some natural by-product of creation and matter.NO. You cannot have matter without a positive and a negative – and they are in a dance of chaos called symmetry – matter does not exist without this BALANCE within nature
RA is the consequence of SIN. You have floating definitions - - why do you call the negative ½ of the balance sin?
SIN was not made through HIM, SIN did not come into being because of GOD. Correct – Sin entered the world through Eve (Adam) – Rom 5:12 + Rom 5:19 Why do you deny scripture Why must you have someone else to blame your sin upon – it is not satan’s fault – it is man’s fault
Yes God allows SIN to be observed, but GOD did not bring SIN into existence. Correct – Sin entered the world through Eve (Adam) – Rom 5:12 + Rom 5:19 Why do you deny scripture Why must you have someone else to blame your sin upon – it is not satan’s fault – it is man’s fault
Even the ra – The Beast of Revelation R" OH so GOD created RA on purpose and therefore ALLOWED SIN to occur, only in humans. YES – nature depends on the sub-atomic dance of positive and negative YES – God loves man so much – that He gave man the Free Will to leave YES – God allowed Eve (Adam) to have the Free Will to disobey YES – God’s Plan – God’s Will YES – when man repents and retunes to God by his own Free Will – God rewards the Prodigal Son
And the archons who help the humans to SIN are NOT sinning themselves. These archons are just dumb animals doing what dumb animals of RA do best, they play havoc on humans on purpose. Designed by God to do this. YES – ants at a picnic – rain on a parade But – more than that – they are devious enough to know our weaknesses – sex – drug – and rock and role The mean suggestion / idea that morality is situational is all it takes for man to live down to his (yester ra) self
You twist RA and SIN to be TWO separate things, one is bad and other is natural. You are wrong to consider this idea. RA = movement away - Entropy is a perfect definition The sub-atomic dance of Symmetry – causes the energy to slow – decay – fall apart – cool down The earth did not go from – without form and void – to tall mountains with babblening brooks and green pastures without a whole lot of natural ra
Your vegetarian shark idea is grade school theology – the plants that your sharks eats suffer ra – destruction – corruption – entropy – ra in every definition of the word
You twist RA and SIN to be TWO separate things, one is bad and other is natural. You are wrong to consider this idea. Your God of Tov only – does righteous judgement on a planetary scale – on a galactic scale – on a universe scale – on a multi-verse scale – all of it ra Why do you insist your God of tov only is also a sinner?
D"Even the ra – God cursed the ground R" God cursed the ground AFTER Adam sinned. You ignore the SIN problem. Adam is responsible – not your satan god of evil And God cursed the ground – explain to me how a curse of any type = tov only?
You will never understand Dave because you have no other creatures sinning except humans. You have no concept of lion sinning, or archons sinning, or angels sinning. The animals were told to be fruitful and multiply – no lions – or any carnivore or herbivore is not sinning No angels sin – they were created to praise and serve – no creature ever evolved into something else by its own will Some archon did sin – the bane elohiym did sin in Gen 6 – the violated the commandment to reproduce after their own kind – they were punished and held in chains awaiting Rev 9 to be released again for 5 months
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
And you ignore deliberately that one verse that destroys you view. "cherub chata" in Ezekiel 28 Correct – you have an entire theology built around two words taken out of contect
I have begged and begged you to present a pre-Roman commentary that supports your doctrine In all of this time – you have failed to present any 1- in every pre-Roman commentary - Man walks with God in the heavens 2- in every pre-Roman commentary - Man is the most cherrished by God 3- in every pre-Roman commentary - Man is in the garden 4- in every pre-Roman commentary - Man is charged to be the covering gaurdian(cherub) of the garden 5- in every pre-Roman commentary - Man is the one that brings sin into the world (Rom 5:12 - Rom 5:19)
I have begged you and begged you to demonstrate precept upon precept, line upon line We have been all over all the verse – more than once Each and every time satan opposes man – not God We went over ever 23 + 49 verses - you threw tyour hands up in frustration and claimed you have two verses Rev 12:7 and Ezk 28
Rev 12:7 is 100% about the Beast of revelation - the serpent race - that we call devils and satanas
Of how one verse changes all the other pieces, suddenly they fall into place. Rabbi Apple says that one angel sinned, is a simile of King Tyre. You ignore this Australian Jewish Rabbi. This is not a pre-Roman source is it? It is obvious that Catholic satan worship has corrupted Jewish theology And you rush to defend Roam and Catholic doctrine with ever post
Ancient Chinese depict the temptor No one denies the Beast of revelation – that ancient serpent – that we call devils and satanas
The Waldenses also had a devil destroying God's love from AD 100 long before your Rome Edit. No one denies the Beast of revelation – that ancient serpent – that we call devils and satanas
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 17:10:29 GMT -5
D"GOD is angry, yes, but not angry to sin, Why do you think God sins? – who says this – only you do – so you can argue against your own statement God has sentenced all sinners to a mortal death God had sentenced every unrepentive soul to the Second Death God performs righteous judgement – YES every man deserves death God does it – deliberately – on purpose Why do you call God a sinner? R" DO you have trouble reading sentences? I agree with everything you write here. Except:
D" Why do you think God sins? Why do you call God a sinner? R" Who says I do? GOD is angry, yes, but not angry to sin. God gets angry, but the anger is not a sin, hence God does not sin, nor is ever a sinner.
RP"What you are not seeing here Dave, is the "unhoused home" of Job is now open to attack by predators and spoilers. AND lions. D" YES – absolutely agree – Job is exposed to the WORLD just like everyone else R" you refuse to acknowledge my point.
RP" The Hebrew word used here "ha-satan" offers a functional clue to your so called prosecutor attorney. He is termed an opposer, You agree the term is used to oppose humans, but here the term is used of a being opposing God's statements about Job. You ignore all this. D" Why is it a sin to be honest with the Lord? The story of Job is the story of every man – it is easy to be a Christian when all is well – keep your faith as the Germans shovel your gassed dead body into furnaces to destroy the evidence
R" you refuse to acknowledge my point.
Movie William Wallace. 'You will die" "Yes, I will die, but it's now about how and when you die, but about how you live"
If you are living in Jesus in His faith, dead is nothing, but a sleep in Jesus.
But you post a pithy remark and refuse to answer my question that your prosecutor attorney is a conflict of interest, hence the opposer/lion/serpent/accuser of the human, is NO prosecutor attorney at all. You are wrong to say this idea. you refuse to acknowledge my point. Or even discusss this idea of mine. D"You just answered your own question - so the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon R" so you agree worldly archons attacked Job. OK and how did they suddenly know Job's home was unhoused by God? The chief archon told them. Duh. Not some prosecuting attorney but the accusing chief archon. You use a Greek word to invent a new creature. You play word games. How about saying who these creatures are, "rulers of darkness" in English, not Greek. And who are these "rulers of darkness"? The verse you ignore, "cherubims that sin" .
But instead you invent a new English word for the Greek word, meaning "ruler of darkness".
D"As you just pointed out - the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon R" Yes but WHOM told them the home of Job was suddenly unhoused?
D"Man is the sinner – why do you need to blame another for your own shortcoming? R" I am not. DO you understand what an OPPOSER/OPPOSE is?
Somebody who opposes you, or opposes something. Like God opposes sinners on a road, eg Baalim on a donkey Like some being opposing God's right to save humans. But no, you use the word differently when it suits you, you make the opposer into some good guy doing the Lord's will. How is that being an opposer?
Oh but you say GOD asked for sombody to help Ahab sin some more. And the lying spirit agreed to go.
I quote some of my SDA comments on this:-
Question: Mr. P. “God is unjust. He sent a lying spirit to persuade Ahab to go up to Ramoth-gilead that he might fall in battle.” 1 Kings 22. Answer. Ahab was a very wicked king. He caused Israel to depart from the Lord; and of him the Bible says, “Ahab the son of Omri did evil in the sight of the Lord above all that were before him.” 1 Kings 16:30. God had faithfully warned him by his servants, and had given him time to reform; but he continued to do those things that were displeasing to the Lord. Finally the Lord suffered him to follow his own way, gave him over to the control of a lying spirit, and decided that he should fall in battle at Ramoth-gilead. Surely God has a right to punish the disobedient and impenitent; and we have in the case of Ahab a striking illustration of God’s justice and long-suffering. ARSH 1861 page 62.
And this by James White, son of EGW and Mr White, published in 1863 Sep 8
Spiritualism HOW RECOGNIZED IN THE BIBLE
Genesis 3:4. “And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die.” Here is the first spirit communication ever received. The medium was a serpent. 1 John 4:1. “Try the spirits whether they are of God.” An appropriate command in the early days of Christianity, but much more so now. Matthew 4:24. One of Christ’s first works was to cure those possessed of evil spirits. “And his fame went through all Syria; and they brought unto him all sick people, that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and he healed them all.” 1 Kings 22:22. A “lying spirit” goes out and deceives king Ahab. For the same object, too, has many a lying spirit gone forth since his day. Revelation 12:12. “Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.” The Devil has indeed come down to the inhabitants of the earth in Modern Spiritualism, and he is now traversing sea and land with that abomination. Isaiah 19:3. Old Egypt, forsaken of God, appeals to charmers, familiar spirits, and wizards, for help. Neither nations nor inhabitants go to the spirits while God is with them. When Saul departed from the Lord he immediately went to the spirits. The same is true now.
Reader, entrench yourself in the panoply of truth, for thus only will you be safe from this world-destroying error.
End quote. It is clear from our 1863 pioneers, the lying spirit is satan, the devil, a lying spirit. RP"" Does the opposer spoil the unhoused HOMES of humans? D" YES – the Beast of revelation – the serpent race – that we call devils and satanas As you just pointed out - the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon R" Funny you play word games again, your prosecuting attorney is different to your archon Greek satanas. Nobody agrees with you that Hebrew satan and Greek satanas are different beings.
You love to make the Greek word "rulers of darkness" into some brand new creature. Sure the OT calls them shedim, or devils. D"Paul also tells us that they were made by God for God (Col 1:16) R" a verse twist. Sure God made all the angels once sinless, but some decided to be sinning angels.
But your Gnostic superior knowledge says God intentionally created RA creatures to help make humans sin, so they use their free will to seek God as salvation. And you even say GOD told everything about this to this serpent being. D"YES – God is the destroyer – He is the roaring Lion – R" OH, does Scripture really say God is a roaring destroying lion?
D"Ps 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. YES – God is the destroyer –
R" I will comment on your one verse you quote and add your discussion. A few words of brevity.
So the Father in the expression of a Being on earth, is being attacked by the Father as a roaring lion on earth? Does this make sense? Only to Dave. You posted this.
Ps 22:6 But I am a worm <towla`> Jesus is a simiel of the towla worm. Interesting simile.
Ps 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn... humans who are wicked shoot to lip
Ps 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him:
Cannot be the same YHWH, unless Dave sees both YHWH as the same YHWH.
I see two YHWH, one rescuing the other. YH is the Father and WH the Son. Together they are ONE.
Ps 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb:
The YHWH took the SON out of the womb clothed in humanity.
Ps 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: ...my God from my mother's belly.
Does this not suggest GOD has a simile womb and a simile mother?
Ps 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me, Ps 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion
THis is not the Father attacking the SON, but wicked humans attacking the SON.
But WHOM is the agent of this SIN and WICKEDNESS?
Ps 22:16 For dogs have compassed me:
What a dogs a symbol of? Just worldly agents of RA?
D"1Pe 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:(KJV) YES – the devil is also described as a roaring lion It is the mission of the archon to keep you sidetracked here in this world so you have no time to devote to the Holy Spirit
R" How can GOD and the devil also be both as roaring lions? Why do you talk of the HS so much ? I thought only Jesus says you.
D"YES the Beast of Revelation – that old serpent race – that we call devils and satanas The Great Contest - the accuser of our brethren – archon vrs man – Gen 3:15 R" how can a prosecuting attorney be a nice guy but the archons be accusers of the humans? Why do you invent two different groups of beings? D"7- you deny that Adam was charged to be the covering cherub (guardian) of the garden 8- you deny that it is Adam’s (man’s) sin / disobedience that caused our mortality R" I do not deny 7 or 8. You make humans the same as cherub. I say cherub is a angel and man is human. Man can function as guardians, yes. But man is not a cherub. Only similes as function. ---------------------------
D" YES – and the prosecutor was right there to document each and every sin by Job – and to save Job’s life R" OH, so you are saying after 2 years of brevity, that the verses of JOB lack details, and the prosecuting attorney does not do any sinning, only documents bad things for God....
You have cheek to make up stuff. Where does Scripture say that idea? So this opposer is only opposing humans, so humans cannot be saved. so He presents God their sins?
What sins Dave can the attorney see and write down? Come one, bring the records on?
Man and angels can record transgressions of the arms and legs. Duh
Angels cannot see sins in the mind. But God can. So why would God need an angel to write down sins God knows already?
RP" OK if God is absolute, WHOM does the SPOILING of the unhoused Home of JOB? Not GOD, because GOD only unhoused the home of JOB – D" Correct As you just pointed out - the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon R" OK rulers of darkness did.
But how did they know the sudden unhoused condition of Job's home?
The chief ruler of darkness told them, an opposer of man's right to be saved. Why do rulers of darkness NOT want humans to be saved?
Because these cherubims sin themselves.... RP" Not the world, because the predators did not know the home of Job was suddenly unhoused. D" Please make up your mind – double speaking – flip flopping within the same post R" Make up my mind??? Answer the question Dave, how did the archons know Job's home was suddenly unhoused by GOD? duh, the chief archon,opposer,lion,serpent told them.
Can't you see that? Suddenly all the pieces fall into place.
D" Sooner or later – your biology must eat to survive Ripping plants out of the ground and destroying them to feed herbivores is equally ra as eating meat for carnivores R" Why did GOD give plants a different brain system and heart system, so removing gently a leaf to eat is not RA at all.
RP"" since when does the fruitful and multiply also include dying? It doesn't. D" How can a fruit tree reproduce without ra? R" sure it can. Re 22:2 ...the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: Every month, no summer or winter.
D"Your vegetarian shark idea belongs in kindergarten somewhere Not supported by scripture Not supported by the empirical evidence R" Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Torah speaks of vegetarian lions eating grass. During second world war all lions in zoos ate vegetarian meals. You mock Scripture and the sinless world God can create.
Every dog in PNG is vegetarian.
Even today some sharks eat grass on the sea beds.
supported by scripture
supported by the empirical evidence
You mock Scripture and the sinless world God can create.
D"You cannot have matter without a positive and a negative – and they are in a dance of chaos called symmetry R" wrong again. You assume you know GOD.
GOD can make motion anyway God likes. Stop making a box to put God's powers into.
D " You have floating definitions - - why do you call the negative ½ of the balance sin? R" the most common definition of breaking relationship to God is transgression of His laws. His words.
The next most subtle way to move away from God's relationship is to daily miss His powers.
When you miss Gods power in your life, twisting happens, a twisting of all sorts of things both good and bad.
Functional becomes dysfunctional.
RA means "head strong" a simile of pride, when functional things become dysfunctional. You twist this to mean both a balance of functional and dysfunctional. As if natural balance. NO It means when functional things become dysfunction, as a result of missing God's powers. Your gnostic view twists meaning.
D"Correct – Sin entered the world through Eve (Adam) – Rom 5:12 + Rom 5:19 Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin (hamartia) (chattaah) "sin-offering" entered into the world,
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
Yes we are established as sinners, because we are born with "sin-offering" Adam offered for His own sinning.
You do not understand what "sin-offering" is and what it means. Chataah is NOT the same meaning as chata.
Jeff says "error" and "err" Hmm? I do not like this idea.
I would use "error" and "err" for chata and chet.
I would make chataah mean "sin-offering" and "chata" mean "miss" or "sin".
When the cherubs sinned, they did not bring sin-offering into existence. The cherub could repent and return to GOD without sin-offering, because NOBODY changed their biological bodies into a fallen state, and they could return to GOD is they wanted to, and many did, but also many did not.
This is the FIRST occasion of MISSING. But not sin-offering.
When mankind sinned, the sinning angels changed the nature of the humans DNA immediately so the humans were trapped in a fallen biological condition.
I speak here mostly my own opinion, true Scripture does not say directly.
The sinning angels thought they had caused mankind to live forever sinning as they are, so ensured the kingdom of earth as their kingdom.
But God did something they did not expect, Jesus came to offered to strike the head of the sinning angels, and offerred Himself for the mischief done. Notice mischief is from the WOMB, it is biological in nature.
Hence it is not possible to humans to repent and come back to God. So the penalty for mischief is life for life, and hence this meant the death of the sinning angels for causing man to sin. So first you must understand the different in the two Hebrew terms, chata and chataah, are not the same.
D"YES – nature depends on the sub-atomic dance of positive and negative R" NO, only in a fallen world from SIN, yes, but in the unfallen world, the answer is NO.
D"YES – God allowed Eve (Adam) to have the Free Will to disobey R" This function of love, must prevade into all the creatures of GOD, angels to ants. Stop denying God is a God of love, only to humans. But not angels. Angels also have free will.
D"RA = movement away - Entropy is a perfect definition R" Yes, moving away from functional to become dysfunctional.
D"The earth did not go from – without form and void – to tall mountains with babblening brooks and green pastures without a whole lot of natural ra R" According to Robert Gentry, the granite rocks were called into existence in just 30 milliseconds, for the nuclear halos to form in zircon crystals. No time for dysfunction.
D"Your vegetarian shark idea is grade school theology – the plants that your sharks eats suffer ra R" really? Why the brain still functions, the sap still flows. Where is your ra? Plants do not have central brains and central heart systems.
D"Why do you insist your God of tov only is also a sinner? R" I don't. You do. God never sins, nor transgresses His own laws.
D"This is not a pre-Roman source is it? R" But the chinese pictograph is Pre-Roman.
D"Ancient Chinese depict the temptor No one denies the Beast of revelation – that ancient serpent – that we call devils and satanas R" Funny how you dismiss my Ancient Chinese pictograph, saying the Greek satanas is different to the Hebrew satan, nobody agrees with you Dave. Nobody.
D"No one denies the Beast of revelation – that ancient serpent – that we call devils and satanas Hmm? Now how is playing word games? Where is your evidence? Still waiting.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 8, 2022 15:38:21 GMT -5
D" Why do you think God sins? Why do you call God a sinner? R" Who says I do? RA is the consequence of SIN. Why do you think God sins? – who says this – only you do – so you can argue against your own statement God has sentenced all sinners to a mortal death = raGod had sentenced every unrepentive soul to the Second Death = raGod performs righteous judgement – YES every man deserves death - raGod does it – deliberately – on purpose – raTo do ra = sin according to you – to sin is always ra according to you Why do you call God a sinner?Sin = disobedience to God – disobeying God’s Commandments How does your god disobey himselfRa = entropy – a necessary – but not necessarily evil aspect of nature RP"What you are not seeing here Dave, is the "unhoused home" of Job is now open to attack by predators and spoilers. AND lions. D" YES – absolutely agree – Job is exposed to the WORLD just like everyone else R" you refuse to acknowledge my point.Job is not exposed to the world and the pain and suffering the world has for mankind? If the hedge is removed – why do you say Job is not exposed to the world and what it has to offer?RP" The Hebrew word used here "ha-satan" offers a functional clue to your so called prosecutor attorney. He is termed an opposer, You agree the term is used to oppose humans, but here the term is used of a being opposing God's statements about Job. You ignore all this. D" Why is it a sin to be honest with the Lord? The story of Job is the story of every man – it is easy to be a Christian when all is well – keep your faith as the Germans shovel your gassed dead body into furnaces to destroy the evidence R" you refuse to acknowledge my point.NO Robert – it is absolutely the POINTMat 10:32 “Therefore whoever acknowledges Me before men, I will also acknowledge him before My Father who is in heaven. Mat 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. D"You just answered your own question - so the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon R" so you agree worldly archons attacked Job. OK and how did they suddenly know Job's home was unhoused by God?The world is always your 3D reality – no one can escape the world – without God’s help1Pe 5:8 Stay alert! Watch out! Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, searching for someone to devour. The verse you ignore, "cherubims that sin" ABSOLUTELY CORRECT1- you have failed to give me a pre-Roman commentary to support your satan dosctrine 2- You have failed to acknowledge that man is spirit – and was created on Day 1 – and was in the garden – was God’s most cherished – was appointed guardian (cherub) over the garden – and that sin entered the world through Adam (man) But instead you invent a new English word for the Greek word, meaning "ruler of darkness".So now you deny that the Beast – who we call devils and satanas are the rulers of darkness?D"As you just pointed out - the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon R" Yes but WHOM told them the home of Job was suddenly unhoused? The world is always your 3D reality – no one can escape the world – without God’s help1Pe 5:8 Stay alert! Watch out! Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, searching for someone to devour. Devil = The Beast of Revelation – the serpent race – we call satanasD"Man is the sinner – why do you need to blame another for your own shortcoming? R" I am not. DO you understand what an OPPOSER/OPPOSE is?You admitted that without your satan god – man would have sinned anyway Who needs your satan god – only Roman Catholics to force people dependency upon the priest and the churchSomebody who opposes you, or opposes something. Like God opposes sinners on a road, eg Baalim on a donkey – YES your god is a satan according to youLike some being opposing God's right to save humans. – Yes – the world + (yester ra)God has sentenced all sinners to a mortal death = ra - why do you call your god satanGod had sentenced every unrepentive soul to the Second Death = ra - why do you call your god satanGod performs righteous judgement – YES every man deserves death – ra - why do you call your god satanGod does it – deliberately – on purpose – ra - why do you call you god satan What has happened to your Feel Good god of tov only that can do no hurt – ra?But no, you use the word differently when it suits you, you make the opposer into some good guy doing the Lord's will. How is that being an opposer?Hebrew satan is the heavily prosecutor – he opposes man by illumination / listing/ recording – all of man’s sin / chattaOh but you say GOD asked for sombody to help Ahab sin some more. And the lying spirit agreed to go. Please quote me – or stop making up word that I say – why can’t you discusse this honestly and academically – without your negative attitude and constant misrepresenting other people’s words or scripture
Quote me that I say – God asked for someone to help Ahab sinGod asked for someone to oppose Ahab A volunteer spirit – left or right hand we do not know God asked him – who will he oppose Ahab – and the answer was – he will be a deceiving spirit God – gave his stamp of approval
God used the deceiving spirit to facilitate God’s Plan – God’s Will on earthI quote some of my SDA comments on this:- Surely God has a right to punish the disobedient and impenitent; and we have in the case of Ahab a striking illustration of God’s justice and long-suffering. ARSH 1861 page 62. YES - righteous judgement always looks like ra to man – is always ra to manWhy does your feel good god of tov only do all this raAnd this by James White, son of EGW and Mr White, published in 1863 Sep 8 Genesis 3:4. “And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die.” Here is the first spirit communication ever received. The medium was a serpent. 1 John 4:1. “Try the spirits whether they are of God.” YES – the deceiving spirit of 1 Kings 22 – was in service to the Lord – working for the Lord – helping to facilitate God’s Plan – God’s Will on earthRevelation 12:12. “Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.” The Devil has indeed come down to the inhabitants of the earth in Modern Spiritualism, and he is now traversing sea and land with that abomination. YES – the devil – also called the satanas – who is the ancient serpent race – the Beast of RevelationIsaiah 19:3. Old Egypt, forsaken of God, appeals to charmers, familiar spirits, and wizards, for help. Neither nations nor inhabitants go to the spirits while God is with them. When Saul departed from the Lord he immediately went to the spirits. The same is true now. Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt: Behold, Adonai rides upon a swift cloud and comes to Egypt. Egypt’s idols tremble before Him and Egypt’s heart melts within them. Isa 19:2 I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian. Everyone will fight against his brother, and everyone against his neighbor—city against city, kingdom against kingdom. Isa 19:3 The spirit of Egypt will drain within it, and I will confuse its counsel. So they will resort to idols, charmers, mediums and familiar spirits. Isa 19:4 I will give the Egyptians into the hand of a cruel master—a fierce king will rule over them. It is a declaration of Adonai-Tzva’ot. Everyone will fight against his brother, and everyone against his neighbor—city against city, kingdom against kingdom. – who causes this – God doesBehold, Adonai rides upon a swift cloud and comes to Egypt – who comes – God doesI will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian – who does this – God doesThe spirit of Egypt will drain within it, and I will confuse its counsel. So they will resort to idols, charmers, mediums and familiar spirits. – who withheld the truth from the Egyptians – God doeswho confuses them – God doeswho causes them to turn to ‘other gods’? – God doesIt is clear from our 1863 pioneers, the lying spirit is satan, the devil, a lying spirit.The devil = also called the satanas – who is the ancient serpent race – the Beast of RevelationRP"" Does the opposer spoil the unhoused HOMES of humans?D" YES – the Beast of revelation – the serpent race – that we call devils and satanas As you just pointed out - the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon Nobody agrees with you that Hebrew satan and Greek satanas are different beings. Sorry Robert – only post-Roman Catholic believe in your satan godD"Paul also tells us that they were made by God for God (Col 1:16) R" a verse twist. Sure God made all the angels once sinless, but some decided to be sinning angels.You misrepresent scripture to make your doctrine true Why are you so comfortable lying about the word of God?Col 1:16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι, εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται· G746 - ἀρχή - From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule. ARCHON – is a first century Greek term used in the agl/NT and the (NHL) = magistrate, power, principality, principle, rulerARCHON – is a first century agl/NT and (NHL) term for the Beast of Revelation – that old serpent race – that we call devils and satanasThis is the same Beast that = the ‘other gods’ of the whole world – outside of Israel As far as the ahl/OT story goes – those ‘other gods’ are all Chaldean in originBut your Gnostic superior knowledge says God intentionally created RA creatures to help make humans sin, Can you possible help yourself – why do you just misrepresent others and think you are honest? You must know you are not correct – therefore you deliberately choose to lie - Christian How do ants – cows – or viruses help man to sin? All the archon do – is make the world look attractive to you – the choice is yours and yours aloneAnd you even say GOD told everything about this to this serpent being.The complete Gospel was recorded in the very first 3 verses of the Torah The complete story of the Gospel is told in 5 verses by Gnostic John in the Aprochraphon of John The story of salvation from the world is repeated over and over throughout the scriptureJust because you deny that it is there – does not change scripture for all you really seek it D"YES – God is the destroyer – He is the roaring Lion – R" OH, does Scripture really say God is a roaring destroying lion?
So the Father in the expression of a Being on earth, is being attacked by the Father as a roaring lion on earth? Does this make sense? Only to Dave. You posted this.You simply choose word games to add confusionYES – God / Christ is the destroyer – it is called righteous judgment Cannot be the same YHWH, unless Dave sees both YHWH as the same YHWH. I see two YHWH, one rescuing the other. YH is the Father and WH the Son. Together they are ONE. There is only One Ture God – your multiple god idea is satanicPs 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion THis is not the Father attacking the SON, but wicked humans attacking the SON.WORLD opposing God – imagine that – who would have every considered this before? R" How can GOD and the devil also be both as roaring lions?YES – Correct – you stumble of word games D"YES the Beast of Revelation – that old serpent race – that we call devils and satanas The Great Contest - the accuser of our brethren – archon vrs man – Gen 3:15R" how can a prosecuting attorney be a nice guy but the archons be accusers of the humans?Why do you invent two different groups of beings? The Beast of Revelation = the archon = just appeared fully formed in a plurality Hebrew satan – is an angel of the Lord in service to the LordMat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass. Why do you allow Rome to rewrite the ahl to fit its own doctrine? Why do you rewrite Hebrew scripture to fit your post-Roman doctrine No one ever believed in your Hebrew satan as the god of evil until Rome invented him D"7- you deny that Adam was charged to be the covering cherub (guardian) of the garden 8- you deny that it is Adam’s (man’s) sin / disobedience that caused our mortality R" I do not deny 7 or 8. You make humans the same as cherub. I say cherub is a angel and man is human. Man can function as guardians, yes. But man is not a cherub. Only similes as function.Precept upon precept, line upon line – I have begged and begged you to prove your point with scripture All you do is repeat Ezk 28 and ask why I deny itProve it to me – with scripture = precept upon precept, line upon line
Every pre-Roman commentary about Ezk 28 = man – Eve Every Rabbinic source about cherubs call them guardians as a functionEvery pre-Roman commentary about Ezk 28 = man – Eve Every Rabbinic source about cherubs call them guardians as a function Every pre-Roman commentary about Ezk 28 = man – the guardian of the garden Gen 2:15 Then Adonai Elohim took the man and gave him rest in the Garden of Eden in order to cultivate and watch over it. Precept upon precept, line upon line – limited to the ahl/OT as the Jews are/were Why do you deny that Adam was the covering guardian (cherub) of Eden?Why do you deny Jewish theologyMat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Mat 5:18 Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass. Your only argument is that the Jews never understood their own God or scriptureYet – they stood the test and tribulation of the ahl/OT Yet – they stood the judgment and tribulation of the diaspora Yet - they stood the judgment and tribulation of the holocaust Yet – they were call all back together from every nation to be a nation once again Yet – they are the focal point of all remaining prophesy Yet – when Christ returns – he comes to the Jews and the Temple --------------------------- D" YES – and the prosecutor was right there to document each and every sin by Job – and to save Job’s life R" OH, so you are saying after 2 years of brevity, that the verses of JOB lack details, and the prosecuting attorney does not do any sinning, only documents bad things for God....
You have cheek to make up stuff. Where does Scripture say that idea?I asked you – and I ask you again – where is your scripture All the calamities to Job – came from other men (Chaldeans by the way) - or they came by disease (world – bacteria or viruses) So this opposer is only opposing humans, so humans cannot be saved. so He presents God their sins?The role of the Prosecutor is to illuminate your crimes / sin = the definition of prosecutorWhat sins Dave can the attorney see and write down? Come one, bring the records on?(google) Recording angels are assigned by God with the task of recording the events, actions, and prayers of each individual human. This includes bad sins, and good deeds. (google) Do angels keep records? A number of ancient documents indicate that sacred records are kept by angels. 1 Usually, these documents indicate that the books are kept in the heavenly temple and are intended to be used at the last day to judge the works of men. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne. The books were opened, and another book was opened—the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what was written in the books, according to their deeds. D" Sooner or later – your biology must eat to survive Ripping plants out of the ground and destroying them to feed herbivores is equally ra as eating meat for carnivores R" Why did GOD give plants a different brain system and heart system, so removing gently a leaf to eat is not RA at all. Please define the word raYour floating definitions are just babble Pick a definition and stick with it Destruction and corruption are not ra – so what is ra You argue that earthquakes, rain, snow, volcanoes are all ra and the result of your satan’s sin So how is destruction and corruption of plants not be ra according your definitions D"Your vegetarian shark idea belongs in kindergarten somewhereNot supported by scripture Not supported by the empirical evidence R" Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. in the future in the New Heaven and EarthHow does prophesy of the future validate your version of the past?Again – you violate dispensation You pick and choose verse out of context – and they still do not support your view You mock Scripture and the sinless world God can create.When have I ever denied the New Heavens and the New earth of Revelation 21 Please quote me – instead of making up your own factsD"You cannot have matter without a positive and a negative – and they are in a dance of chaos called symmetry R" wrong again. You assume you know GOD. You deny Rome 1:19 + Psa 19:2 – it is plain to all who look – no excuseGOD can make motion anyway God likes. Stop making a box to put God's powers into. You deny Rome 1:19 + Psa 19:2 – it is plain to all who look – no excuseRA means "head strong" a simile of pride, when functional things become dysfunctional. You twist this to mean both a balance of functional and dysfunctional. As if natural balance. NO It means when functional things become dysfunction, as a result of missing God's powers. Your gnostic view twists meaning.If RA means head strong – pride – how does it apply to indamine objects?Why are earthquakes and volcanoes ra? Why is eating mean ra? I speak here mostly my own opinion, true Scripture does not say directly.Correct – you just make it up as you go along I will stick with precept upon precept, line upon lineD"YES – God allowed Eve (Adam) to have the Free Will to disobey R" This function of love, must prevade into all the creatures of GOD, angels to ants. Stop denying God is a God of love, only to humans. But not angels. Angels also have free will.If your angels have free will – and they know their fate – why don’t they repentAnswer – they cannot or scripture would fall apart You deny God’s Plan – God’s Will – you deny predestinationD"The earth did not go from – without form and void – to tall mountains with babblening brooks and green pastures without a whole lot of natural ra R" According to Robert Gentry, the granite rocks were called into existence in just 30 milliseconds, for the nuclear halos to form in zircon crystals. No time for dysfunction. 30 milliseconds = time – and time is not linear – 30 milliseconds could have been 20 billion years D"Your vegetarian shark idea is grade school theology – the plants that your sharks eats suffer ra R" really? Please present some empirical evidence – something more substantial than your attitude or opinionD"This is not a pre-Roman source is it? R" But the chinese pictograph is Pre-Roman. No one denies the Beast of revelation – that ancient serpent – that we call devils and satanas Hmm? Now how is playing word games? Where is your evidence? Still waiting. You = I speak here mostly my own opinion, true Scripture does not say directly.Correct – you just make it up as you go along I will stick with precept upon precept, line upon lineBut if I quote scripture I’m playing a word game!Rev 12:9 And the great dragon … the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 16:30:42 GMT -5
D" God has sentenced all sinners to a mortal death = ra God had sentenced every unrepentive soul to the Second Death = ra God performs righteous judgement – YES every man deserves death - ra God does it – deliberately – on purpose – raR" since when is ending one's probation of living, RA? Is not God living, and God grants sinners living for a time to see if they choose him? In judgement God asks these why did you not choose me? Than they cease to exist. This is not RA God does, but the consequence of the sinner refusing to be saved? You write brevity again, how is what God does, a RA? God is dishing out what the sinner wants.... Do you seem to think a sinner can be allowed to keep on sinning for ever? Is that a law of GOD? D" If the hedge is removed – why do you say Job is not exposed to the world and what it has to offer?R" If the evil doers did not exist, the world would become a paradise Dave? Just what are you proclaiming here? The cow, and the ant, the lion and the bear, are not destructive as wicked humans are, or as wicked sinning angels are? Come on Dave, what is so destructive about the world, if all the wicked agents were removed? D" The story of Job is the story of every man – it is easy to be a Christian when all is well – R" you are wrong again Dave. In a fallen world, having a good time with Jesus leads to our biggest sins of missing... Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. 5 ¶ I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought. 6 According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.The first command says "I am your saviour, have no saviour but me". But often when we are saved by Jesus, we forget Jesus and begin to become Saviours of ourselves. Pride comes back, when tribulation and trials go away. The best fruits of plants in a fallen world come from tribulation. DP" You just answered your own question - so the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon RP" so you agree worldly archons attacked Job. OK and how did they suddenly know Job's home was unhoused by God?D" The world is always your 3D reality – no one can escape the world – without God’s help 1Pe 5:8 Stay alert! Watch out! Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, searching for someone to devour.R" you missed my point again Dave. Explain the suddenness of Job's loss of assets, like in a single day? How did the Greek Satanas Archons know the home of JOb was unhoused? If your Greek Satanas Archons are watching all the time to enter, why than does God speak to a good angel seeking to prosecute Job for sins, to test if Job is saved or not? You do not link these two agents together, but keep them apart, as if they are doing totally different jobs. Explain why the Greek Satanas archons are not consulted in Job's account? What has Job's sin got to do with God speaking to an angel about sins? So this story is nothing about an angel opposing JOb ? Since when is detailing a humans sins, actually opposing the human anyway? After all the human is getting a just judgment by God, and God knows more sinning than an angel ever could. SO your logic makes no sense Dave. If God declared the human perfect, that should be the end of the matter, so why did this angel negate God's declaration of JOb? Why does God hedge sinners as a part of salvation anyhow? to keep away Greek Satanas devil archons? If that is so, why are these devils not mentioned in Job? Come on Dave, answer my questions. Where is the Hebrew meaning of "oppose/opposer" in your view? I can't see any? AN angel telling God of JOb's sins, God doesn't see in Job, is not correct. You are wrong Dave. If God spoke to a sinless angel, this human is perfect. The sinless angel woudl bow and praise GOD. But not this angel, who is an opposer, opposes salvation for a reason, because the opposer loves to sin. But you ignore this idea. D" So now you deny that the Beast – who we call devils and satanas are the rulers of darkness?R Dave the English term for "rulers of darkness" are "rulers of darkness" your idea to adopt a Greek word and make it an English word is wrong. Archons do not exist as created beings. The only created beings in the OT are cherubims, and a little mention of shedim. That is it. D" You admitted that without your satan god – man would have sinned anywayR" correct , maybe not Adam and Eve, though. But why does God need an angel to point out human sinning, when God sees more sins than angels ever could? Why didn't the Greek satanas devil archons meet with God over Job? No mention Only of the opposer meeting with God negates God declaration that Job is sinless/ You deny this negation of God's declaration. ---------------------------- RP" Like God opposes sinners on a road, eg Baalim on a donkey – D" YES your god is a satan according to you D" God has sentenced all sinners to a mortal death = ra - why do you call your god satan God had sentenced every unrepentive soul to the Second Death = ra - why do you call your god satan God performs righteous judgement – YES every man deserves death – ra - why do you call your god satan God does it – deliberately – on purpose – ra - why do you call you god satanR" God opposes sin Dave, but loves the sinnerStop twisting the Hebrew word to make it seem God is a Hey-Satan. The word in Hebrew means to oppose or be an opposer. Sure God opposes sin, but loves the sinner. All sinners have probation of living for a time, after that the living ceases if they do not choose to be saved. D" Hebrew satan is the heavily prosecutor – he opposes man by illumination / listing/ recording – all of man’s sin / chattaR" total bunkum . God sees more sinning than any angel ever could. Come on Dave, get real. God has no need of angels to record sins God sees in us even before we think them. Angels can record all of humans sins? no Angels record the transgressions of man, yes, a book of remembrance. If human will one day judge angels, which angels are these Dave? Sinless angels or sinning angels? RP" Quote me that I say – God asked for someone to help Ahab sinD" God asked for someone to oppose AhabR" Really? 1Ki 22:13 And the messenger that was gone to call Micaiah spake unto him, saying, Behold now, the words of the prophets declare good unto the king with one mouth: let thy word, I pray thee, be like the word of one of them, and speak that which is good. Others want prophet Micaiah to speak functionally. 14 And Micaiah said, As the LORD liveth, what the LORD saith unto me, that will I speak. 15 ¶ So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he answered him, Go, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king. The prophet speaks " God gives the King what the King wishes to hear." 16 And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the LORD? 17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace. 18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil? The king says "see" all the Lord says is evil concerning me? 19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. The prophet Micaiah to speaks what God tells him to speak. 20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. If the king is always doing evil, God is asking for the ruler who rules over the king to continue to do evil in the king. 21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee? I do not see any "oppose" here. The king loves to do evil and thus sin, and is already himself opposing God. D" God asked him – who will he oppose Ahab – and the answer was – he will be a deceiving spiritIf God opposed the sinners sinning, God would be saving that person. God is not going to ask for an angel to oppose Ahab, because that would mean the angel would be opposing Ahab's sinning, thus helping Ahab to become sinless. God is asking for a lying spirit to continue with Ahab's sinning, and desires for more sinning. The prophet speaks " God gives the King what the King wishes to hear." If you seek sinning, God grants what you seek. RP" Nobody agrees with you that Hebrew satan and Greek satanas are different beings.D" Sorry Robert – only post-Roman Catholic believe in your satan godR" OK post me a JEWISH talmud that the Greek Satanas archons exist in their views. DO not post shedim, unless you can prove the shedim are Greek Satanas in origin. Post evidence that Jews see Hebrew satan differently to Greek Satanas devil archons. Show me the evidence from Jewish writings. D" There is only One Ture God – your multiple god idea is satanicR" your multiple expression is just as weird Messanic Jews have a trinity view, whatever that means. I do not see love expressed in multiple gods., you are wrong to say this. My marriage is not a marriage of two beings, but two personalities of loving in one being. Please get my view correctly. This is Hebrew view. RP"R" how can a prosecuting attorney be a nice guy but the archons be accusers of the humans?D" Why do you invent two different groups of beings? The Beast of Revelation = the archon = just appeared fully formed in a plurality Hebrew satan – is an angel of the Lord in service to the LordR" What? so you are saying the prosecuting attorney is now a Greek satanas archon as well, a plurality? You speak riddles, please explain. SO I don't misquote you. D"N o one ever believed in your Hebrew satan as the god of evil until Rome invented himR" I see. show me the Jewish proof of this idea? How much do Jews know of amanuah as well? Ho 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Obviously not much is known in the OT times by Jews. D" Every Rabbinic source about cherubs call them guardians as a functionR" OH so the created creature "cherub" does not exist? How convenient for you? Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, Explain to me how the "thou" refers to "human" but not "cherub" who was created? Show me Jewish talmud discussions too please. D "Why do you deny Jewish theologyR" show me the Jewish sages on this D" Your only argument is that the Jews never understood their own God or scriptureR" Hmm? D" Yet – when Christ returns – he comes to the Jews and the TempleR" The second coming of Jesus does not touch the earth, so you are wrong. RP" What sins Dave can the attorney see and write down? Come one, bring the records on?D" (google) Recording angels are assigned by God with the task of recording the events, actions, and prayers of each individual human. This includes bad sins, and good deeds.
(google) Do angels keep records? A number of ancient documents indicate that sacred records are kept by angels. 1 Usually, these documents indicate that the books are kept in the heavenly temple and are intended to be used at the last day to judge the works of men.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne. The books were opened, and another book was opened—the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what was written in the books, according to their deeds.R" Is that it? Does not Jerimiah say God knows us all our sinning before we are born? Can angels write that? no Can angels see hidden sins in the mind? No D" How does prophesy of the future validate your version of the past?R" why can't it? God does not change. SO his future actions are the same as His past actions. D" When have I ever denied the New Heavens and the New earth of Revelation 21R" If God will make a sinless world in the future, God made a sinless world for Adam. The changes to our world must have come from SINS. RP" GOD can make motion anyway God likes. Stop making a box to put God's powers into.D" You deny Rome 1:19 + Psa 19:2 – it is plain to all who look – no excuse
R" you speak like a fool. God can do anything God wants. Stop putting God into a box. D" If RA means head strong – pride – how does it apply to immanent objects? Why are earthquakes and volcanoes ra?R" good point, SIN caused a change to the way GOD upholds the world. So you see natural RA as natural, while it is GOD reacting to the SINS. The curse spoken by God is the natural RA you see, came after Adam sinned. D" If your angels have free will – and they know their fate – why don’t they repentR" Many did. millions repented. But the SIN develops pride and you become blinded by SELF. D" 30 milliseconds could have been 20 billion yearsR" No, this is local time on the zircon crystal, not talking about a different frame of reference. RP" But the chinese pictograph is Pre-Roman.D" No one denies the Beast of revelation – that ancient serpent – that we call devils and satanas Hmm? Now how is playing word games? Where is your evidence? Still waiting.R" How can the CHinese know of Greek since Greek came 2000 years later? Stop twisting things. D" But if I quote scripture I’m playing a word game! Rev 12:9 And the great dragon … the ancient serpent, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world. R" You make the Hebrew satan different to a Greek satanas? That my friend is a word game. Nobody agrees with you. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 11, 2022 3:11:16 GMT -5
God performs righteous judgement – YES every man deserves death - ra God does it – deliberately – on purpose – ra R" since when is ending one's probation of living, RA?You write brevity again, how is what God does, a RA? God is dishing out what the sinner wants.... Do you seem to think a sinner can be allowed to keep on sinning for ever? Is that a law of GOD? R" since when is putting man to death RA?To destroy all life on the planet save Noah is not ra? To command the genocide of the 7 tribes of Amorite is not ra? To sentence men to eternal hell is not ra? To return with an army to destroy the wicked is not ra? The cow, and the ant, the lion and the bear, are not destructive as wicked humans are, or as wicked sinning angels are? Come on Dave, what is so destructive about the world, Your dog just ate your goose – your boss just let you go - your government would let you visit your mom – working or not your government is still going to want their tax – one day you are going to come home and some took all your solar – one day your son, nephew, or brother may be drafted and sent to war – one day there may be an accident or an attack and radiation or poison gas will drift across your property – no matter how well you take care of your health – one day you will go down Come on Dave, what is so destructive about the world = REALITYD"The story of Job is the story of every man – it is easy to be a Christian when all is well – R" you are wrong again Dave. If the Book of Job is only about Job and has nothing to do with God’s Torah to man – why is it scripture?In a fallen world, having a good time with Jesus leads to our biggest sins of missing...WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? - Christian Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. You must be so confused – Is YHWY the Saviour – or is Christ the Savour – they must be two different gods or they cannot love are pray to one anotherThe first command says "I am your saviour, have no saviour but me". You must be so confused – Is YHWY the Saviour – or is Christ the Savior – they must be two different gods or they cannot love are pray to one another Are you violating the First Commandment to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior? OR does YHWY = Christ / Christ = YHWYDP"You just answered your own question - so the worldly predators can attack Job's home and spoil it. = archon RP" so you agree worldly archons attacked Job. OK and how did they suddenly know Job's home was unhoused by God? Explain the suddenness of Job's loss of assets, like in a single day? How did the Greek Satanas Archons know the home of Job was unhoused? Explain why the Greek Satanas archons are not consulted in Job's account?Job 1:6 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before Adonai, and the satan also came with them. Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. bane elohiym - satan's seed - the archon - the beast / dragon serpent - we call dils and satanasJob 2:1 Again the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before Adonai, and the satan also arrived among them to present himself before Adonai. Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. bane elohiym - satan's seed - the archon - the beast / dragon serpent - we call dils and satanasWhat has Job's sin got to do with God speaking to an angel about sins? – DUHWhy do you deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ?Are you serious – how have you studies these Books in detail Precept upon precept, line upon line – the same Gospel message is repeated all through scripture Gen 1:1-3 – beginning – choshek – LIGHT Reb 12:1-5 – beginning – Beast – The Son Gen 1 beginning – Gen 3 choshek + Gen 3:15 curse – Gen 3:15 the promise Gen 1 – Gen 6 (bane elohiym) – Gen 8 Noah Over and over the same precept – repeated Gen 2:7 God created man as a human being – Eve (Adam) sinned / disobeyed = Rom 5:12 Rephrase Gen 2:7 Adam (humanity) – Gen 3 Eve (Adam) sinned = all men are sinners / all humanity are sinners John 3:16 + Rom 5:19 = by one man – all are made righteous – saved IF – and only IF – you remain faithful until the end of the tribulation – then reward IF – and only IF - you choose to return to the Father as the Prodigal Son – then reward Job is the ultimate Prodigal Son - from home with God (HEDGE) to exposed to the world - yet remaind faithful to the end - and loved the Lord of his own free will - Prodigal Son ------------- Where is the Hebrew meaning of "oppose/opposer" in your view? I can't see any?Actually – you are the person I have ever met that uses the term opposer I have always heard the term - accuserSo this story is nothing about an angel opposing JOb ?The heavenly prosecutor is always there to document our sin – to accuse us of sin at judgment Since when is detailing a humans sins, actually opposing the human anyway? The heavenly prosecutor is there to accuse us of sin at judgment After all the human is getting a just judgment by God, and God knows more sinning than an angel ever could. SO your logic makes no sense Dave.To say this – you must deny the scripture of Zec 3D"So now you deny that the Beast – who we call devils and satanas are the rulers of darkness?Dave the English term for "rulers of darkness" are "rulers of darkness" your idea to adopt a Greek word and make it an English word is wrong. Archons do not exist as created beings. So now you deny that the Beast – who we call devils and satanas – that ancient serpent ---------------------------- Stop twisting the Hebrew word to make it seem God is a Hey-Satan. The word in Hebrew means to oppose or be an opposer. RP" Like God opposes sinners on a road, eg Baalim on a donkey –D" YES your god is a satan according to you D" God has sentenced all sinners to a mortal death = ra - why do you call your god satan God had sentenced every unrepentive soul to the Second Death = ra - why do you call your god satan God performs righteous judgement – YES every man deserves death – ra - why do you call your god satan God does it – deliberately – on purpose – ra - why do you call you god satan RP"Nobody agrees with you that Hebrew satan and Greek satanas are different beings.D" Sorry Robert – only post-Roman Catholic believe in your satan god R" OK post me a JEWISH talmud that the Greek Satanas archons exist in their views.DO not post shedim, unless you can prove the shedim are Greek Satanas in origin.Look at your attempted trap – DUHR" OK post me a JEWISH talmud that the Greek Satanas archons exist in their views. Why Talmud? Am I of Talmudic persuasion – when have ever quoted the Talmud? So much respect from a ChristianPost evidence that Jews see Hebrew satan differently to Greek Satanas devil archons.Look at your attempted trap – DUH – are vocabularyShow me the evidence from Jewish writings. But - DO not post Jewish writings about the shedimShow me the evidence from Jewish writings. D"No one ever believed in your Hebrew satan as the god of evil until Rome invented himR" I see. show me the Jewish proof of this idea? Show me the evidence from Jewish writings.Book of Enoch – Book of Jubilees – Book of Creation – Book of Adam and Eve – Book of Giants – War Scroll Moses wrote of the serpent and the bane elohiym King Solomon wrote of Beelzebub and the shedim James, John, Paul, peter, Phillip, and Thomas were all Jews – Hebrew literature They all speak of the archon Luke and Paul speak of the archon within the canon A whole lot more information than just ‘cherub chata’ ------ D"Every Rabbinic source about cherubs call them guardians as a function R" OH so the created creature "cherub" does not exist? How convenient for you? HOW DO YOU MAKE UP THIS CRAP?There are 9 or 10 types of angels – one class of them are cherubs This class of angels called cherubs are always the guardian protectors Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, Explain to me how the "thou" refers to "human" but not "cherub" who was created?1- 3 chapters in a row – 83 verses in a row are all about the King and Kingdom of Tyre 2- this person was perfect – until he wasn’t – only one scripture reference = Adam 3- Man was in heaven – as host – before physical creation – cherished 4- man was in the garden 5- Adam was charged to be the covering cherub of the garden – the protector Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. D"Why do you deny Jewish theology R" show me the Jewish sages on thisI have several times - either you blow me off – or you never bother to look at it www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ezekiel/The Book of Ezekiel has always been a problem book. As early as the second century C.E., in the time of the Mishnah , there were doubts and concern about it. These doubts were strong enough, in those early days, to raise the question of whether Ezekiel should be one of the biblical books. The rabbis were greatly troubled by the fact that the Book of Ezekiel gives certain laws, chiefly as to the Temple procedures, which actually contradict the laws given in the Book of Leviticus. Robert claims if anything is error it is all error – his is an absolute rule for him – except when he overlooks his own absolute rule They had a further objection: The opening chapters (chapters 1-3) of the Book of Ezekiel present a detailed picture of God coming in a chariot, surrounded by retinues of angels, etc. This picture, called “the arrangement of the chariot” Agreement with the prophesy of Enoch and– agl/NT canon The Apocryphon of Gnostic Johnweekly.israelbiblecenter.com/is-the-prince-of-tyre-satan/“Finally, Ezekiel calls Tyre’s king a “cherub” (כרוב; keruv) in 28:14-16. If this “cherub” refers to either the deceptive serpent in Eden or to a pre-fall Satan in heaven, then it would be exceedingly odd for God to appoint “cherubim” (כרובים; keruvim) to guard the way to the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve are expelled (Gen 3:24). If a “cherub” had rebelled against God and become Satan, why on earth (or in heaven) would God entrust more cherubim with the security of Eden? The only way that Ezekiel’s lament makes linguistic, contextual, or theological sense is if it refers to the king of Tyre in the prophet’s present, not to Satan in the prehistoric past. Ezekiel 28 is not a story of Satan, but rather an example of God’s sovereignty over all the peoples of the earth.” www.jstor.org/stable/30041062Questions about Eve's Iniquity, Beauty, and Fall: The "Primal Figure" in Ezekiel 28:11-19 and "Genesis Rabbah" Traditions of Eve jbqnew.jewishbible.org/uncategorized/ezekiel-wordsmith-prophecies-tyre/craigkeener.com/does-ezekiel-2812-14-refer-to-the-devil/Does Ezekiel 28:12-14 refer to the devil? D"Yet – when Christ returns – he comes to the Jews and the Temple R" The second coming of Jesus does not touch the earth, so you are wrong. Does He come to Queensland – or Africa? RP" GOD can make motion anyway God likes. Stop making a box to put God's powers into. D" You deny Rome 1:19 + Psa 19:2 – it is plain to all who look – no excuse R" you speak like a fool. God can do anything God wants. Stop putting God into a box. So what happened to God has to obey his own laws?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2022 15:23:32 GMT -5
D"bane elohiym - satan's seed - the archon - the beast / dragon serpent - we call dils and satanas R" So the "sons of God" are these biological creature archons coming to GOD for a meeting, and somehow God only talks to a prosecuting angel, but not the "archon creatures" about Job? Why is that Dave?
D"I have always heard the term - accuser R" Isn't an accuser an opposer?
Why do I use opposer/oppose? Because accuser/accuse does not fit all verses.
Nu 22:22 ¶ And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. How is this messenger accusing the donkey or the rider on the donkey? The messenger is blocking the passage, this is, opposing passage.
How do you make this verse into a meaning to accuse or be an accuser? Nothing is said, no words spoken, the word accuser/accuse implies the adversary speaks.... All I see is somebody blocking the passage on the road?
D"The heavenly prosecutor is always there to document our sin – to accuse us of sin at judgment R" You view, twist Numb 22:22
My view from Numb 22:22, opposer/oppose
The heavenly Opposer is always there to point out our sin – to oppose our Salvation
Why would such a being oppose Salvation, so He does not die himself, ie the mischief maker that causes mischief must pay life for life.
RP"After all the human is getting a just judgment by God, and God knows more sinning than an angel ever could. SO your logic makes no sense Dave. D" To say this – you must deny the scripture of Zec 3 R" brevity Again Dave? The heavenly Opposer is always there to point out our sin – to oppose our Salvation Why would such a being oppose Salvation, so He does not die himself, ie the mischief maker that causes mischief must pay life for life.
D"So now you deny that the Beast – who we call devils and satanas – that ancient serpent R" Nobody agrees with you that Greek satanas is separate as a group of beings from Hebrew Satan. Show me any Jewish or scholar study, I am still waiting. ----------------------------------
D"Even today most Jews find the Medieval conception of Satan being the force of evil a rather blasphemous idea because it implies that God is not omnipotent; that is, it implies that God is not the force behind all things, both good and evil.”
No one before Rome believed in your satan doctrine R" That is a start? ANy more evidence or discussion by Jews?
D"Feb 16, 2018 — UCLA professor says in new book, “Satan in the Bible, God's Minister of Justice,” “Looking back through the Old and New testaments, Kelly said it becomes clear that Satan, no matter what we may think of him or imagine him to be now, was not originally presented as the implacable enemy of God, but rather God’s heavenly assistant in dealing with human beings.” R" How remarkable to sweep statements like this? Do you have commentaries on specific verses?
D"Moses wrote of the serpent and the bane elohiym King Solomon wrote of Beelzebub and the shedim James, John, Paul, peter, Phillip, and Thomas were all Jews – Hebrew literature They all speak of the archon Luke and Paul speak of the archon within the canon
A whole lot more information than just ‘cherub chata’ R" I see and all this writing is inspired and approved by God I take it? --------------------------------
FInally Dave quotes some detailed commentaries
D"weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/is-the-prince-of-tyre-satan/ “Finally, Ezekiel calls Tyre’s king a “cherub” (כרוב; keruv) in 28:14-16. If this “cherub” refers to either the deceptive serpent in Eden or to a pre-fall Satan in heaven, then it would be exceedingly odd for God to appoint “cherubim” (כרובים; keruvim) to guard the way to the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve are expelled (Gen 3:24). If a “cherub” had rebelled against God and become Satan, why on earth (or in heaven) would God entrust more cherubim with the security of Eden? The only way that Ezekiel’s lament makes linguistic, contextual, or theological sense is if it refers to the king of Tyre in the prophet’s present, not to Satan in the prehistoric past. Ezekiel 28 is not a story of Satan, but rather an example of God’s sovereignty over all the peoples of the earth.”
R" Why does the writer, assume ALL cherubims are NOT trustworthy? Why not those who sinned are banished to earth, while those who remained sinless are loyal to GOD? If we assume all cherubims have free will to choose, why does the writer not trust cherubims?
The presentation of the logic is false, according to me.
D" posts links to Jewish stuff, but no detail commentaries. R" Dave it is up to you to prove to me that Jews have certain beliefs, not for me to prove your Jewish ideas are what they are.
If Jews do not wish to follow Hebrew scriptures, fine. That is their business. I wish you to quote why they have the views they have. ---------------------
D"Yet – when Christ returns – he comes to the Jews and the Temple R" The second coming of Jesus does not touch the earth, so you are wrong. D" Does He come to Queensland – or Africa?
R" Jesus never touches the earth during the Second Coming. I would imagine Jesus is about 20 times the distance from our solar system when He comes, around over the equator, Orion, the gate is opening as we speak, comes no where near earth, yet all the wicked are killed by the brightness. Why do you mock?
D"So what happened to God has to obey his own laws?
R Morally God obeys His own laws, when God does a wonder/miracle, such things are beyond normal physics laws. Is that a problem? Prophets do not breath air when they are in vision, for example. Proof Ellen White was a prophet. Not to be used as proof, her loving life and her obedience to law she lived by and knew, is how we test a true prophet of God, not the miracles only. God can work above His laws sometimes. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Feb 12, 2022 19:15:35 GMT -5
D"bane elohiym - satan's seed - the archon - the beast / dragon serpent - we call devils and satanas R" So the "sons of God" are these biological creature archons coming to GOD for a meeting, and somehow God only talks to a prosecuting angel, but not the "archon creatures" about Job? Why is that Dave? All of Israel is at Sini – God only speaks to Moses – why is that Or of all Israel why did God only speak to the Priest Or in all of Jersusalem why did God only appear in the Temple
D"The heavenly prosecutor is always there to document our sin – to accuse us of sin at judgment R" You view, twist Numb 22:22
My view from Numb 22:22, opposer/oppose
Num 22:22 (KJV) And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
Num 22:22 (YLT) and the anger of God burneth because he is going, and a messenger of Jehovah stationeth himself in the way for an adversary to him, and he is riding on his ass, and two of his servants are with him,
Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went; and the angel of Jehovah placed himself in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
The heavenly Opposer is always there to point out our sin – to oppose our Salvation The heavenly prosecutor is there to accuse us of our sin – to oppose our salvation
Why would such a being oppose Salvation, Because all men are sinners – all men are unworthy of salvation Without the Divine pardon – we are all judge guilty of sin
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FInally Dave quotes some detailed commentaries We have been all through this before -
D"weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/is-the-prince-of-tyre-satan/ “Finally, Ezekiel calls Tyre’s king a “cherub” (כרוב; keruv) in 28:14-16. If this “cherub” refers to either the deceptive serpent in Eden or to a pre-fall Satan in heaven, then it would be exceedingly odd for God to appoint “cherubim” (כרובים; keruvim) to guard the way to the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve are expelled (Gen 3:24). If a “cherub” had rebelled against God and become Satan, why on earth (or in heaven) would God entrust more cherubim with the security of Eden? The only way that Ezekiel’s lament makes linguistic, contextual, or theological sense is if it refers to the king of Tyre in the prophet’s present, not to Satan in the prehistoric past. Ezekiel 28 is not a story of Satan, but rather an example of God’s sovereignty over all the peoples of the earth.”
R" Why does the writer, assume ALL cherubims are NOT trustworthy? Why not those who sinned are banished to earth, while those who remained sinless are loyal to GOD? Why are all men made sinner by the actions of one man? Answer – Adam proved man is not trustworthy
If we assume all cherubims have free will to choose, why does the writer not trust cherubims? We know man has free will – why doesn’t God trust man?
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