Walter Veith on Gnosticism

[Dave]

Walter Veith & Martin Smith - Gnosticism and The Word Of God

Robert has offered this video to discredit this forum and my ministry

Listen very carefully to the opening of this video
There are so many interpretations of scripture – so many winds of doctrine within the church
If we could get the basics right – many of the problems of our understand would simply disappear

I so agree – once you are on the right track the pieces simply fit together

Robert presents an SDA theology that must deny mainstream Christianity – Judaism – world history – and the unexplained as myth

The Reality of the Archon = the Beast of Revelation – the serpent race that we know of as devils and Chaleadn satanas – suddenly all reality makes sense – ancient gods – Islam – UFOs – Dead Sea Scrolls – witchcraft – the ‘other gods’, the shedim, Lilith, and satyrs of the ahl – why all ancient gods are pictures as chimeras – or associated with chimeras – Gen 6 – Nephilim – Rephiem – why God orders a genocide of 7 tribes in the ahl - the unexplained Rama’s bridge and the very interesting things of the Hindu – the unexplained and the very interesting of the Inca or Aztecs – or the African Dogan – or the Australian Aborigine – ancient astronauts – UFOs today – as well as – as all scripture – all fit together in one theiology

That Theology =
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
During creation
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
The Beast appeared – a by-product of creation – inherent to creation
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The very Law of Thermodynamics – Entropy – a by-product od creation / inherent to creation
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
YES – the entire POINT of scripture = John 3:16 – The Resurrection of Jesus Christ
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
The Contest is not over – time is allowed for the Contest yo play out
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
YES – oil and water – things of matter do not belong in the spiritual realm
YES – things of SELF (yester ra) do not belong in the spiritual realm
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
That is the function of the Beast – to accuse man of being mortal – focus upon flesh – focus upon world
And Robert claims there is no such thing as spirit – or spiritual – even his angels are biology
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
YES – the entire POINT of scripture = John 3:16 – The Resurrection of Jesus
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
YES – REJOICE
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea
YES – woe to those who only worship world and flesh
It is too bad AHR forum closed after you started your posting style with a group of Academic PhDs
God of the sea – vrs- god in the sea – was a discussion Dan, Hal, and I were having
The creator –vrs- a created – too bad that topic was over your head

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Again – time is allowed for the Contest to play out
again it is about the serpent - not Hebrew satan
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Misinformation – false doctrine - religion
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Romans 1:19 + Psa 19:2 absolute proof in the One True Creator
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Who is the denier of the Father and of the Son = Islam / or atheist – either way works

There is no God just world and biology – or there is a different god other than the One True Creator
Robert has a world of only biology and flesh – absolutely denies the spirit - and additional gods – 3 tov and 1 ra

2:50 – the comment is made – without believing scripture you cannot see prophesy correctly
Robert absolutely denies that 1948 Israel has anything to do with prophesy EGW teaches against it

3:46 - Thayer Definition: - vrs - Strong’s Definition
This is another good point – why the difference? Strong’s is the general standard of most Christians

faithbibleministriesblog.com/2015/08/14/strongs-concordance-greek-words-word-studies-greek-dictionary/
THE PROBLEM OF USING STRONG’S CONCORDANCE DICTIONARY ~ GREEK WORDS ~ WORD STUDIES ~ AND GREEK DICTIONARIES
One thing that many believers do concerning the handling of Greek words is use Strong’s Concordance’s Dictionary to translate Greek words – this is not only a fundamental error, but can lead to devastating conclusions regarding the misunderstanding of many Greek words.
WHY? – the answer = Strong only draws from the LXX or agl – it does not include all the Greek use of the word –
We had this discussion before about the word WAR
G4171 – πόλεμος - (to bustle); warfare: - battle, fight, war.
Total KJV occurrences: 18
This word is used a lot more than just 18 times in all of Greek literature

Strong’s Definition
G1108 - γνῶσις - gnōsis - From G1097; knowing (the act), that is, (by implication) knowledge: - knowledge, science.
Total KJV occurrences: 29
This word is used a lot more than just 29 times in all of Greek literature

Thayer Definition:
G1108 - γνῶσις - gnōsis
1) knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding
1a) the general knowledge of Christian religion
1b) the deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced
1c) especially of things lawful and unlawful for Christians
1d) moral wisdom, such as is seen in right living

Before I even hear him – I expect he will make a big deal about
1a) the general knowledge of Christian religion
1b) the deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced

Believers vrs The Spirit Filled Born Again Christian

4:00 – it only took him his next breath to attack the reality of Elisha and his servant
Either scripture is believable - or it is not - please make up your mind

4:35 – It is the Roman Church he says claim they have superior knowledge
YES – agree – The Roman Edit – the rewriting of Jewish theology into Roman Chriatendom
He is saying that the Roman Church are the Gnostics
5:15 – Now the Masons are Gnostics

7:20 – he offers a definition of Gnosticism
I went directly to his source - www.worldhistory.org/Gnosticism/

About the Nag Hammadi he says
There were 13 books containing treatises, gospels, and Gnostic myths. They are collected in one volume, The Nag Hammadi Library.
This is not correct – my copy has 47 different documents / codexs
It is not one volume – it is a library of 47 different titles

As it turns out, the Church Fathers did a fair job of copying. Whereas they utilized quotes, we now have the complete texts for a better analysis of each document.
How can I respond – which quotes from which text

Gnostic gospels differ from the canonical gospels of the New Testament. They often lack a narrative or a story and consist of simply the teachings of Jesus in elucidating the existence of the true God.
This is correct – it is not synoptic – it is a collection personal witness by the disciples – letters – prayers and even Plato

The Gospel of Truth
The Gospel of Truth was thought to be written by Valentinus, a Gnostic teacher from Alexandria who was subsequently excommunicated from Rome (c. 150 CE). One of the most spiritual of the Gnostic gospels, he personified abstractions such as Error, Fear, and Hope as living beings. Christ is described as the manifestation of hope.
YES - Valentinus was contending for the Bishop of Rome – when another was elected he opened his own school – the First guy to suggest Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Christ is described as the manifestation of hope.
YES – this sounds very anti-Christian – how could anyone ever suggest such a simile / metaphor

The Gospel of Mary Magdalene
Please count how many time I have quoted this to you

The Gospel of Thomas
The Gospel of Philip – YES the only surviving copy

The Gospel of Judas – IS NOT IN THE NAG HAMMADI

7:30 – so the savior is the one who brings knowledge that you are actually divine
This guy is pissing me off right now – who the hell ever says this

8:25 – Emperor Constantine gave the Roman Church the absolute authority
Agree

9:50 –he suggest that Gnostics suggest we are divine - if you believe you are divine then you believ as satan believe (evidently he also says satan is divine) Robert call him a god

10:45 – Gnostic confuse creation from God – Evolution fits in with Gnosticism
Quote me Robert – I dare you
Now both of you are pissing me off

11:20 – Jews and Marxist are now Gnostic
13:18 – now the occult world is Gnostic
13:40- now Kabbalist are Gnostic

I almost stopped watching then

14:36 – Why does the word speak against Rome so much – but then they produced the word
To that I add – but then they also add the doctrine of Fallen Angels – that never existed before Rome invented it

20:45 – Academic HogWash – deception
I care not about the Walsdensions – but one group offers’ evidenced from their own documents that they worshiped on Sunday

Walter Veith immediately goes into a rant about allowing this misinformation to stand
Simple – offer your own documentation
His rebuttal – it undermines prophesy – show me your data not your attitude or assumptions
Then he quotes a Roman internal document

Is Rome to be believed – and is the standard answer for all – or is Rome a Jesuit Satanic Cult
Walter Veith cannot decide for himself!

42:00 – he is talking against the accuracy of the LXX – with Greek numbers
This is no secret – it is always a translation discussion
½ of the Greek codexs say 666 the all the older texts say 616

– he is talking against the accuracy of the LXX – which became the textus receptus and the your sola scriptorium - your recieved text

42:30- he says you must stick to the Bible and by Bible he means the official Roman text
Is Rome to be believed – and is the standard answer for all – or is Rome a Jesuit Satanic Cult
Walter Veith cannot decide for himself!

43:20 – he quotes an argument – no one has the LXX it does not exist – the best we have is 4th Century AD
OK – show me an original Torah – or an original anything

43:50- the LXX is an invention – the evidence he offers offers no no proof- just attitude and assumption

He sure makes a big point that the LXX is so different than the Messianic text – but he has a KJV Bible on his table
I have bpth – you have both – what is the difference?

45:33 – here we go again – origin was a Gnostic – and he changed many of the verse to fit Gnosticism
1- Jesus had to be degraded – I say Jesus was God incarnate – you disagree
2- We have to be uplifted – just believing is enough – do not become spiritual - moch those that say they heard from God
3- The divinity of Christ has to be diminished – Robert teaches Christ died on the cross – no spiritual component
THIS IS THE DOCTRINE OF THE SERPENT – Walter Veith’s words

52:00 – now he is talking about time measurements in the Bible and prophesy
Time is not linear – numbers in the Bible have always been suspect

54:50- he is talking about changing a single word in scripture to alter the entire meaning of the text
He offers:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this THE judgment:
And then says – NIV, ASV RSV, NASB deliberated omit the THE
And this omission leave open the door to a period of intermission (purgatory)

I have 4 different NT Greek translation at my disposal –
I have a Hard copy + 3 from e-Sword
I just looked and The Word – has the same Greek manuscripts
All of them say

Heb 9:27 καὶ καθ᾿ ὅσον ἀπόκειται τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἅπαξ ἀποθανεῖν, μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο κρίσις,

μετὰ δὲ - τοῦτο - κρίσις,
But after - this – judgment
There is no “THE” in front of the word judgment

Impossible – because - τοῦτο – is a masculine pronoun – meaning this, that, them, those, theirs, it
κρίσις, is a feminine word – would never take a masculine article

His point is not correct – he is presenting an attitude / an assumption – because his data is error

56:14 – he says the word is validated by 2 or 3 witness – scripture says precept upon precept
EXCEPT FOR EZK – you have failed to ever show me a verse where your Hebrew satan opposes God – he is always opposing man at God’s direction / instruction

58:37 another example from him
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Then he list a whole bunch of translations that – “omit the words: by himself”
This is easy to address – since he chose to include the word “by”

Heb 1:3 ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ, δι᾿ ἑαυτοῦ καθαρισμὸν ποιησάμενος τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τῆς μεγαλωσύνης ἐν ὑψηλοῖς,

αὐτοῦ - MY FAVORITE GREEK WORD – used twice as
Part of Speech: Personal pronoun
Case: Genative (possession, "of", through; also origin or separation, "from")

Used once as - ἑαυτοῦ
Part of Speech: 3rd Personal pronoun
Case: Genative (possession, "of", through; also origin or separation, "from")

Then he list a whole bunch of translations that – “omit the words: by himself”
This is easy to address – since he chose to include the word “by”

By Himself is a is a dative function of the word – not genitive
The translation should read – “of himself” or “through himself”

Heb 1:3 (YLT) who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might—through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,

(CJB) and after he had, through himself, made purification for sins,

Heb 1:3 (TLV) This Son is the radiance of His glory and the imprint of His being, upholding all things by His powerful word. When He had made purification for our sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

(BBE) having given himself as an offering making clean from sins,
(CEB) After he carried out the cleansing of people from their sins,
(CEBA) After he carried out the cleansing of people from their sins,
(DBY) having made [by himself] the purification of sins,

Then he list a whole bunch of translations that – “omit the words: by himself”
This is easy to address – since he chose to include the word “by”

1:03:22 – he says = quote “he cannot believe that so many theologians are duped by a higher criticism and manuscript theology that they would rely on these flag ships of Rome .. to build an entire theology which happens to destroy Protestant advent movement”

I could not agree more – Robert takes the opposite view of every mainstream Christian teaching
Mainstream Christianity says God exist as a Trinity
Robert had 4 gods – 3 of tov and 1 of ra
Mainstream Christianity teaches the salvation of our soul/spirit not our body
Robert claims there no such this as spirit – it is all about biology
Mainstream Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ was God incarnate
Robert says this is impossible and his proof – God cannot be in two places at the same time

What this video teaches - you can call anything you want Gnostic to critisize it
anything and everyhing is Gnostic - the standard Roman teaching

The doctrine of "Fallen Angels" that teach Exk 28 – did not exist in the world until Rome invented it
While the Reality of the Archon have always been with us

Question – why does Robert continue to teach the official Roman Bible and Roman doctrine as the only correct theology and then suggest Rome is a Gnostic enemy that corrupted scripture

[Dave]

Questions for Robert

1- what does anything in this video have to do with the Beast of Revelation and the Reality of the Archon

2- what does anything in this video have to do with the mission of this forum and ministry - other than to prove the Roman Edit in spades and how Rome changed theology

[Dave]

Robert brags and brags about his relationship with Jeff Brenner and says that Jeff Brenner is the go to expert for the Hebrew language

Robert elevates the Roman Received Text as perfect – all other translations are error
Jeff Brenner does not support Roberts words

Robert promotes Walter Veith as the SDA expert and Robert support his words
Walter Veith also does not support Roberts view

Walter Veith video suggest that the KJV has been altered by Rome (Roman Edit)
Robert denies that a Roman Edit ever existed

youtu.be/QbmLdss5uqQ
Errors in the King James Version
Jeff Brenner suggest that the Received Text is filled with human error and translation error

youtu.be/dCFfBmwHse8
The KJV translation error in Psalm 12:7
I like this video – because he speaks like a translator – grammar, syntax, spelling, and context

Robert demands that the serpent lied in the garden – this seems to be a foundational issue for him
I say – that the serpent deceived - deception is not a lie it is not the whole truth

youtu.be/GajLteR468M
Did the serpent in the garden lie to the woman?
Jeff Brenner says the serpent deceived Eve with the truth

Question for Robert – do you agree with anyone?
Or should I say – why don’t your own experts support your opinions?

[Deleted]

D"youtu.be/dCFfBmwHse8
The KJV translation error in Psalm 12:7
I like this video – because he speaks like a translator – grammar, syntax, spelling, and context
R" Nice video Dave, Jeff explains an error in the KJV translation

Ps 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (KJV)

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve HIM from this generation for ever (Benner)

I note from the verse before "IMRAH" is spoken of as YHWH.

Is the HIM here spoken to this IMRAH, the YHWH-IMRAH? Your thoughts Dave?

Pr 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Is this "HIM" correct Dave? Here we have IMRAH and ELOAH, two members of the Godhead.

Your thoughts here Dave, from a similar verse.


D"Robert demands that the serpent lied in the garden – this seems to be a foundational issue for him
I say – that the serpent deceived - deception is not a lie it is not the whole truth
R" Something that is spoken with RA, half or 3/4 truth, is still missing perfection, hence a lie Dave.
-------------------
D:youtu.be/GajLteR468M
Did the serpent in the garden lie to the woman?
Jeff Brenner says the serpent deceived Eve with the truth

R" Jeff Benner says the serpent did not lie to the woman, but deceived her with the truith.
Woman has changed the words God gave to Adam.

elohiym is not "god" but one of us, knowing good and evil
defines elohiym, knowing good and evil
God says take them from tree of life, lest they live forever.
Gen 2:17 and Gen 3:3 and Gen 3:4, seems like serpent lied, but this is not the case, it's a little tricker
Gen2:17, you will surely die (somtime in the future)
Gen 3:3 you must die, woman got it wrong (immediate death)
Gen 3:4. you must surely die, didn't say a lie, but deceived the worman with the truth

Rob looks for answers with Ellen White
"
Eve had wandered near the forbidden tree, and her curiosity was aroused to know how death could be concealed in the fruit of this fair tree. She was surprised to hear her queries taken up and repeated by a strange voice. “Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” Eve was not aware that she had revealed her thoughts in audibly conversing with herself; therefore, she was greatly astonished to hear her queries repeated by a serpent. She really thought that the serpent had a knowledge of her thoughts, and that he must be very wise.
She answered him, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

Here the father of lies made his assertion in direct contradiction to the expressed word of God. Satan assured Eve that she was created immortal, and that there was no possibility of her dying. He told her that God knew that if she and her husband should eat of the tree of knowledge, their understanding would be enlightened, expanded, and ennobled, making them equal with Himself. And the serpent answered Eve that the command of God, forbidding them to eat of the tree of knowledge, was given to keep them in such a state of subordination that they should not obtain knowledge, which was power. He assured her that the fruit of this tree was desirable above every other tree in the garden to make them wise, and to exalt them equal with God. He has, said the serpent, refused you the fruit of that tree which, of all the trees, is the most desirable for its delicious flavor and exhilarating influence.

Eve thought that the serpent's discourse was very wise, and that the prohibition of God was unjust. She looked with longing desire upon the tree laden with fruit which appeared very delicious. The serpent was eating it with apparent delight. She longed for this fruit above every other variety which God had given her a perfect right to use.

Eve had overstated the words of God's command. He had said to Adam and Eve, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” In Eve's controversy with the serpent, she added “Neither shall ye touch it.” Here the subtlety of the serpent appeared. This statement of Eve gave him advantage; he plucked the fruit and placed it in her hand, using her own words, He hath said, If ye touch it, ye shall die. You see no harm comes to you from touching the fruit, neither will you receive any harm by eating it.

Eve yielded to the lying sophistry of the devil in the form of a serpent. She ate the fruit, and realized no immediate harm. She then plucked the fruit for herself and for her husband. “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”

Adam and Eve should have been perfectly satisfied with their knowledge of God derived from His created works and received by the instruction of the holy angels. But their curiosity was aroused to become acquainted with that of which God designed they should have no knowledge. It was for their happiness to be ignorant of sin. The high state of knowledge to which they thought to attain by eating of the forbidden fruit, plunged them into the degradation of sin and guilt.
end quote"

Satan assured Eve that she was created immortal, and that there was no possibility of her dying.

Eve had overstated the words of God's command
You see no harm comes to you from touching the fruit, neither will you receive any harm by eating it.

Extra words from EGW, not added to the Genesis story.
Your comments on this lines Dave?

D" Question for Robert – do you agree with anyone?
Or should I say – why don’t your own experts support your opinions?
R" I have agreed with you, that Jeff says on Ps 12
Maybe not so about the serpent deceiving the Eve.

Read through the EGW passage and see what agrees or disagrees with Jeff Benner?

Shalom

[Dave]

R" Nice video Dave, Jeff explains an error in the KJV translation
Ps 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (KJV)
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve HIM from this generation for ever (Benner)

I like translation questions – but my expertise is Greek
Psa 12:6 ἐγὼ δὲ ἐπὶ τῷ ἐλέει σου ἤλπισα, ἀγαλλιάσεται ἡ καρδία μου ἐπὶ τῷ σωτηρίῳ σου·
ᾄσω τῷ κυρίῳ τῷ εὐεργετήσαντί με καὶ ψαλῶ τῷ ὀνόματι κυρίου τοῦ ὑψίστου.

FRom the LXX - I would grade both of them wrong

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
The verb “keep” = Tense: Aorist, Voice: Active, Mood: Indicative, Person: first , Number: Singular
The verb says “I” guarantee continuous definite keeping
The object is σου
Part of Speech: Personal pronoun, Case: Genative (possession, "of"; also origin or separation, "from")
Number: Singular

The verb ‘preserve’
The verb “keep” = Tense: Aorist, Voice: Active, Mood: Indicative, Person: first , Number: Singular
The verb says “I” guarantee continuous definite protection

The object is σου
Part of Speech: Personal pronoun, Case: Genative (possession, "of"; also origin or separation, "from")
Number: Singular

The verse should read - “I” guarantee continuous definite keeping (of us) + “I” guarantee continuous definite protection (of us)

However – the sentence already has a subject - ἐγὼ
The verse should read – “I” (am the one saying) “I” guarantee continuous definite keeping (of us) + “I” guarantee continuous definite protection (of us)

Psa 12:8 (TLV) You will keep us safe, Adonai. You will protect us

Psa 12:7 (ASV) Thou wilt keep them, O Jehovah, Thou wilt preserve them

Psa 12:7 Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve them, Thou keepest us

Why the change from I and us to God and them?
Answer – David is the speaker – he has repeated what the Lord told him
It is a = (google) In third-person narration, the narrator exists outside the events of the story,

Is the HIM here spoken to this IMRAH, the YHWH-IMRAH? Your thoughts Dave?
God is the giver – man is the recipient

Is this "HIM" correct Dave? Here we have IMRAH and ELOAH, two members of the Godhead.
Your thoughts here Dave, from a similar verse.
My thoughts are – I have no idea what your point is
David is speaking – he said – God said – “I will keep and protect us” - and the us belongs to David a man

D"Robert demands that the serpent lied in the garden – this seems to be a foundational issue for him
I say – that the serpent deceived - deception is not a lie it is not the whole truth
R" Something that is spoken with RA, half or 3/4 truth, is still missing perfection, hence a lie Dave.
Word game - trying to justify you doctrine at the expense of the translational truth

Jeff Brenner says the serpent deceived Eve with the truth
R" Jeff Benner says the serpent did not lie to the woman, but deceived her with the truth.
That is what I said – that is what Jeff Brenner says - please make up your mind

Rob looks for answers with Ellen White
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
Here the father of lies made his assertion in direct contradiction to the expressed word of God. Satan assured Eve that she was created immortal, and that there was no possibility of her dying.
Correct Adam and Eve were created immortal – they were never designed to die a mortal death
If they were not created immortal then the threat od mortal death is not a threat it will happen anyway
Adam and Eve are also spirit which has nothing to do with mortality and mortal death – life lives
John 3:16 = life lives – it is not a lie Robert

He told her that God knew that if she and her husband should eat of the tree of knowledge, their understanding would be enlightened, expanded, and ennobled, making them equal with Himself.
Affirmed by God Himself
Gen 3:22 Then Adonai Elohim said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil.
And the serpent answered Eve that the command of God, forbidding them to eat of the tree of knowledge, was given to keep them in such a state of subordination that they should not obtain knowledge, which was power.
Knowledge – is all that happened – Adam and Eve were educated

He assured her that the fruit of this tree was desirable above every other tree in the garden to make them wise, and to exalt them equal with God. He has, said the serpent, refused you the fruit of that tree which, of all the trees, is the most desirable for its delicious flavor and exhilarating influence.
Lust – Greed – desire – all worldly things

Eve thought that the serpent's discourse was very wise, and that the prohibition of God was unjust.
Out of ignorance she was deceived – because she was wrong

Gen 3:13 Adonai Elohim said to the woman, “What did you do?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me and I ate.”

H5377 – נָשָׁא - nâshâ' - A primitive root; to lead astray, that is, (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce: - beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly.

LXX - G538 - ἀπατάω - apataō - to cheat, that is, delude: - deceive.

NOT - H8267 – שֶׁקֶר – sheqer - an untruth;
NOT - H8266 – שָׁקַר - shâqar - be untrue

[Dave]

Robert and Walter Veith both continue to say – Gnostic ideas were brought into the Roman Church

Several really stand out – yet Robert has not touched on the obvious

1. the change of Sabbath from Fri/Sat – to Sun day

Interesting – Germatic (English)
Friday is named after the wife of Odin. Some scholars say her name was Frigg; others say it was Freya;

Interesting - Roman
Friday is named after the planet Venus

Both = Friday = female – the only female day of the week
Both name Saturday after the planet Saturn – the supreme authority of all the planets

Jewish Sabbath is female/male
Christian Sunday is only the male sun god

2. The worship of Tammuz – born on Dec 25th, (Winter equinox)
killed by a pig, at age 40,
The women weep for Tammuz for 40 days (Ezk 8)
The pig is the sacrificial animal
His mother came to earth (Spring equinox)
in an egg and changed a bird into an egg laying rabbit

Roman Christians celebrate Christmas on (Winter equinox) – Dec 25th
Roman Christians celebrate Easter on the (Spirng equinox) with a tradition ham dinner and Easter eggs
Truth – Jesus was born in September in the fall or near Passover in the spring –
ABSOLUTLY NOT Dec 25th
And the Spring equinox Easter rarely falls on Passover
But all Catholic set LENT for 40 days before Easter Sunday

3. the Zoroasterian concept of two gods locked in an eternal controversy – each opposing the other
100% Ellen White theology of the Seventh-day Adventist

4. The denial that the archon exist
The 1836 book “Quakerism Examined” by John Wilkinson contained the following.
“One of the artifices of Satan is, to induce men to believe that he does not exist”

In 1864 “Le Figaro” published the tale “Le Joueur Généreux” (“The Generous Gambler”) by Charles Baudelaire in which he says – “the loveliest trick of the Devil is to persuade you that they don’t exist!”
Notice satan comes out as a they

The they here = Archon – the Beast – that ancient serpent- that we call devils and Chaldean satanas
They are our real struggle (Eph 6:12) – Robert denies this
They were created by God (Col 1:16) because all things were created through God/Christ (John 1:1-4)

Robert also denies they were created by God – even tho scripture clearly states that they were
Robert says satan created himself – by his own power
Then Robert says his Hebrew satan took 1/3rd of God angels who were created for the purpose of praise and service = and they changed themselves by the power of satan
As proof – of his second creator - he can only point to Roman Catechism

5. The Roman invention of the god of evil – Hebrew satan and the introduction of the Zoroasterian two gods in an opposition controversy
No Jew ever saw Ezk 28 as the invention of Roman satan
Hebrew satan as the god of evil is a Roman invention
100% embraced by Robert, all Catholics, most Western Christendom,
And the foundation of Ellen White’s Seventh-day Adventist theology

6. The denial of the spirit – how can there be salvation of the soul/Spirit – a spiritual awakening – a spiritual communion if there is no spirit within man
And the foundation Ellen White and Seventh-day Adventist theology

www.myjewishlearning.com/article/body-soul/
Judaism teaches that the body and soul are separate yet indivisible partners in human life. Rather than imprisoning or corrupting the soul, the body is a God-given tool for doing sacred work in the world. It requires protection, care, and respect, because it is holy.

The Bible gives few clues to the ancient Israelite idea of the soul or spirit. Three words which over time developed the meaning of “soul” are present in Tanach : Neshamah, Nefesh, and Ruach. Tracing the evolution of these terms gives us some idea of the ancient Israelites’ beliefs regarding the soul.

… the midrash Tanhumah tells us that all souls were made during the six days of Creation. Before the birth of each person, God calls forward the proper soul and has angels show that soul how earthly existence benefits spirit by allowing for spiritual development.

In later books of the Bible, the soul (using all three terms) is mentioned apart from the body and as more than just an animating spirit. This subtle evolution of meaning reflects the growth of the idea of what we call the soul–the unique, everlasting, intangible part of a person. In the stunning poem that serves as the centerpiece of the last chapter of Ecclesiastes, the death of a person is described as occurring when “… the dust returns to the ground where it had been and the ruah returns to the God who had given it” (12:7). While previously we saw the life-breath leaving the body at death, here we see it as a separate entity that returns to God, rather than simply disappearing.

Man was created along with all the host of heaven during creation!
From God we came – and to God we return
Spirit man – comes to earth for a physical souljourn – to Jer 1:5 – and then we return to God for judgment
Man is made in God’s image – we came from heaven to Jer 1:5 and then return to God

7. John chapter 3 is a call to become spiritual Christians
Robert mocks this idea – mocks anyone who suggest they have been touched by the spirit - actually he calls it satanic

8. Judaism, Messianic Judaism, and Gnostic Christianity all teach – Jer 1:5 – witness to the whole world
Robert and the Creationist and the Seventh-day Advantest teach – there are some people we should not waste our witness on – do not witness to scientist
Instead they teach we should takes sides against our brothers and shut them out

[Deleted]

Happy Season Greetings,
Merry Christmas
Happy Sabbath
A special day indeed to celebrate the birth of the divine SON of GOD with humanity, who died to save humans from SIN, and grant us the ability to live forever with Jesus our Saviour.

You are happy yet again to misquote and mock my views.

In contrast I wish to understand your views more, as I find the details difficult to fathom.

Judaism teaches that the body and soul are separate yet indivisible partners in human life. Rather than imprisoning or corrupting the soul, the body is a God-given tool for doing sacred work in the world. It requires protection, care, and respect, because it is holy.

If the Judaism body is considered holy, than it has no RA in it from creation, so why does Dave embrace views of the Gnostic Body which has RA created intentionally in the body?

In the Creation story, we read of God blowing a “breath of life” into the man of earth and dust (Genesis 2:7). The word used here, neshamah, is a form of the Hebrew root indicating breath. Although this word after becomes associated with the soul, here it only describes the element that animates a body. This animating element is not, in early biblical tradition, separate from the body in life, nor does it possess any personality.

Why is the Judaism breath "neshamah" not considered to possess any personality?

Similarly, ruah is the animating force from God. Most often used as “wind,” ruah may also be used to mean “breath.” “God said, ‘My breath [ruhi] will not govern man forever, since he is flesh…'” (Genesis 6:3). Here, we see the added element of transience: The ruah ends its association with the mortal body at death.

Why is the Judaism ruwach seen only as the animating force from God, like a wind, and not considered the Holy Spirit?

The word nefesh is often used to mean “person” or “living being”. In the Torah , however, animals may also possess this life force–a “nefesh behemah.” The term nefesh is particularly associated with blood, as in “the life [nefesh] of the flesh is in the blood” (Leviticus 17:11).

Nefesh does reflect a personal dimension. It may be used in the sense of “self” (including “himself”). Nefesh is also associated with personal desire or attraction. One’s nefesh may cleave to someone (as in the case of Shehem’s yearning for Dinah, Jacob’s daughter), or to evil (see Proverbs 21:10). In a later example of this usage, a person of considerable appetite is called “ba’al [possessor of] nefesh” (Proverbs 23:2). In all of these usages, the nefesh is connected to the body and its material wants

Why is the Judaism Nephesh not seen as a personal dimension?

Ancient Jews displayed an awareness of how influential non-Jewish philosophers regarded the soul. For example, the Greek Jew Philo tried to use the three words associated with spirit–neshamah, nefesh, ruah–to support Plato’s claim that the soul has three parts. The Sages of the Talmud , however, were not as keen on many of these foreign ideas. Although the Rabbis also saw human beings as composed of body and soul, they generally rejected the Greeks’ and Gnostics’ belief that the earthly body imprisons the soul.

Why does Judaism reject Gnostic views, that the body imprisons the soul?

In Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, we read that the soul is a guest in the body and that care of the body is deemed a commandment by the great sage Hillel the Elder, who cited the idea in the Creation story that God made the human in the divine image.

But Gnostic views consider the body is full of RA from Creation. The Judaism account does not reflect this idea? Please comment.

Rabbi Yehudah counters with a parable: Two guards–one blind and one lame–are in a garden. Together, they are able to steal some fruit from a high tree. When caught, each claims that he is obviously unable to commit the crime due to his disability. In the end, the orchard owner places the lame man on the back of the blind man, and they are judged as one (91b). Similarly, God judges the actions of the body and soul in partnership after returning the soul to the body at resurrection.

This seems to suggest the body always requires its soul, and this is what the resurrection does, is the same view of the SDA.

The path of the soul following death was not a particularly significant matter of speculation for the Sages, nor is there consensus on the matter in the Talmud and Midrash. In Tanhumah, we read a vaguely worded passage suggesting that the body cannot live without the soul nor the soul without the body. On the other hand, many Talmudic Rabbis taught that the soul not only exists separately from the body, but also exists in a fully conscious state in an ethereal realm (Ketubbot 77b, Berakhot 18b-19a, and elsewhere).

Different views and opinions, in the Sages, Talmus and Midrash. Why don't Jews only read the Torah, instead they also read the traditions and precepts of men, something the torah tells us NOT to do?

Maimonides developed a complicated Aristotelian model of the soul. He described a number of faculties of the soul, all of which are related to the relationship of a person to his or her material environment, perceptions, memories, creativity, and desires. Most of these faculties of soul exist only in a living human body; with the death of the body, they too die.

Does any Jew follow only the torah? How much detail does Maimonides develop?

End of the study. Many details are lacking Dave.

Do you have a Jewish account on this subject with incredible details, using the torah verses to prove these points?

Enjoy your festival day with your family. We have a quiet time alone with husband and wife. No kids, which really make Christmas time nice. You have kids. You are lucky. Ours have all grow up and left the nest.

Shalom

[Deleted]

D"This word is used a lot more than just 29 times in all of Greek literature

R" So when you do a word study, you do not use Sola Scriptoria, you also use the meanings of the word across other books and Greek sources as well?

This is not fair to the words of GOD, you add the meanings from other sources of the word from other contexts.

For example "war" is considered to you to mean "bustle" because you find that meaning is used outside the NT Greek contexts, in other contexts outside Scripture.
This is not fair to the words of GOD. You are the one playing word games.

D"7:30 – so the savior is the one who brings knowledge that you are actually divine
This guy is pissing me off right now – who the hell ever says this

R" I am missing your meaning? What is Walter saying that you dislike so?


D"45:33 – here we go again – origin was a Gnostic – and he changed many of the verse to fit Gnosticism
1- Jesus had to be degraded – I say Jesus was God incarnate

I get the impression you are not Gnostic at all, and use Gnostic writings only to help you sometimes? I also say Jesus was God incarnate.

Do Gnostics truly teach Jesus had to be degraded?

Shalom

[Dave]

Happy Season Greetings,
Merry Christmas
A special day indeed to celebrate the birth of the divine SON of GOD with humanity
Sorry Robert – Jesus was not born on Dec 25th – we are spending the day together as a family – and we have some token gifts for each other –

but for us – it is not a celebration of the Birth of Jesus
Just a secular commercial excuse to exchange gifts

Judaism teaches that the body and soul are separate yet indivisible partners in human life.
Correct – I agree man = (spirit the home of yester tov) + (biology – the home of yester ra)
Rather than imprisoning or corrupting the soul, the body is a God-given tool for doing sacred work in the world. It requires protection, care, and respect, because it is holy.
Correct – the body is a tool
We cannot do our commission / assignment / mission of Jer 1:5 without the body

If the Judaism body is considered holy, than it has no RA in it from creation, so why does Dave embrace views of the Gnostic Body which has RA created intentionally in the body?
Biology – all biology / flesh comes with (yester ra) instinct for self preservation

Why is the Judaism ruwach seen only as the animating force from God, like a wind, and not considered the Holy Spirit?
Because your word game fails – spirit means spirit – that is all it mean
Holy Spirit – is the Spirit of God
Man’s spirit – is the spirit of man

The word nefesh is often used to mean “person” or “living being”. In the Torah , however, animals may also possess this life force–a “nefesh behemah.” The term nefesh is particularly associated with blood, as in “the life [nefesh] of the flesh is in the blood” (Leviticus 17:11).

Nefesh does reflect a personal dimension. It may be used in the sense of “self” (including “himself”). Nefesh is also associated with personal desire or attraction. One’s nefesh may cleave to someone (as in the case of Shehem’s yearning for Dinah, Jacob’s daughter), or to evil (see Proverbs 21:10). In a later example of this usage, a person of considerable appetite is called “ba’al [possessor of] nefesh” (Proverbs 23:2). In all of these usages, the nefesh is connected to the body and its material wants
Correct – the soul / man’s spirit is connected to the body

Why is the Judaism Nephesh not seen as a personal dimension?
Do not understand the question

Although the Rabbis also saw human beings as composed of body and soul, they generally rejected the Greeks’ and Gnostics’ belief that the earthly body imprisons the soul.
Have no idea of your point – Judaism teaches that man is a biological animal with a soul

Why does Judaism reject Gnostic views, that the body imprisons the soul?
The body does capture the spirit and hold it prisoner – what a stupid remark
The spirit of man is placed within the biology at conception – Gen 2:7

In Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, we read that the soul is a guest in the body and that care of the body is deemed a commandment by the great sage Hillel the Elder, who cited the idea in the Creation story that God made the human in the divine image.
Correct – the – your body it’s the tool we use to Jer 1:5 –
we should make it presentable so that our witness is presentable
Suicide – or to take a life is forbidden – because then the tool is lost

But Gnostic views consider the body is full of RA from Creation. The Judaism account does not reflect this idea? Please comment.
My comment is that you twist words to present your own fact
Jews teach – man = (yester ra)+(yester tov) – I have never presented anything different

God judges the actions of the body and soul in partnership after returning the soul to the body at resurrection.
Correct – each man according to his due

This seems to suggest the body always requires its soul, and this is what the resurrection does, is the same view of the SDA.
In the New Heaven and New Earth – why will you need your 3D body of this past world – go figure
All thing will be new – leave your 3D physical world worship behind

Scripture says – it has not yet been reviled what we will be – but we will no long be like this – but be as he is – WHY MUST YOU ARGUE WORLD AGAINST SCRIPTURE

In Tanhumah, we read a vaguely worded passage suggesting that the body cannot live without the soul nor the soul without the body. On the other hand, many Talmudic Rabbis taught that the soul not only exists separately from the body, but also exists in a fully conscious state in an ethereal realm (Ketubbot 77b, Berakhot 18b-19a, and elsewhere).

Different views and opinions, DUH – CAN YOU READ?
The body needs the soul to jer 1:5 in this world
The soul need the body to jer 12:5 in this world
Out of this world – away from this world – we exist n a fully conscious state in an ethereal realm

in the Sages, Talmus and Midrash. Why don't Jews only read the Torah, instead they also read the traditions and precepts of men, something the torah tells us NOT to do?
Yet you quote Roman doctrine and Ellen White
And when I asked your opinion on Nebacanezzar’s dream you had to check with Walter Veith first
You even quote Jeff Brenner and Adam Clark – they have all helped formulate your views
Sound like Christian arrogant hypocrisy to me

The curious thing – is why you argue so hard against the very theology of Jesus Christ, the disciples, the First Messianic Jews. As a Christian we know that ‘God became flesh’ – therefore you argue against God’s theology – in favor of Rome

D"This word is used a lot more than just 29 times in all of Greek literature
R" So when you do a word study, you do not use Sola Scriptoria, you also use the meanings of the word across other books and Greek sources as well?
DUH – it is the art of translation

For example "war" is considered to you to mean "bustle" because you find that meaning is used outside the NT Greek contexts, in other contexts outside Scripture.
This is not fair to the words of GOD. You are the one playing word games.
Jeff Brenner – and all of scriptural textual criticism all appreciate factual information

D"7:30 – so the savior is the one who brings knowledge that you are actually divine
This guy is pissing me off right now – who the hell ever says this
R" I am missing your meaning? What is Walter saying that you dislike so?
Your and his constant reference that Gnostic teach that we are just little “sparks of divine”
What a bunch of propaganda hog wash – ZERO academic honesty – A complete misrepresentation of the literature
The only people who say this are the critics – especially the critics that deny the spirit

D"45:33 – here we go again – origin was a Gnostic – and he changed many of the verse to fit Gnosticism
1- Jesus had to be degraded – I say Jesus was God incarnate

I also say Jesus was God incarnate. – Sure and your god died on the cross and is a different god than the Father in heaven or that cannot talk to each other
You mock the trinity – you mock the entire concept – you have 3 individual gods working together as a family

[Deleted]

D"Just a secular commercial excuse to exchange gifts
R" That's OK, it's the same for us too.

RP" If the Judaism body is considered holy, than it has no RA in it from creation, so why does Dave embrace views of the Gnostic Body which has RA created intentionally in the body?
D" Biology – all biology / flesh comes with (yester ra) instinct for self preservation
R" but if all creatures have the same sinless bodies without RA in them, there is no need for self preservation, ie the need to kill the other if feeling threatened?
And if nothing dies, not need for decomposer either.
And if the dust never happens, no need for soils lacking nutrients.

Everything is in place, no heat is ever generated from chemical reactions. No reactions have heat losses? Is this kind of uptopia even possible? Yes, anything is possible in God's world. He can create supremely.

To admit God cannot create a sinless body from matter without RA in it as a byproduct of creation, makes God less capable than God really is.

Rp" Why is the Judaism ruwach seen only as the animating force from God, like a wind, and not considered the Holy Spirit?
D" Because your word game fails – spirit means spirit – that is all it mean
Holy Spirit – is the Spirit of God
Man’s spirit – is the spirit of man
R" Oh, so ruwach doesn't mean HS or medium or a special wind from God, it just means a natural wind, a natural medium and nothing special, unless it comes with the term "ruwach elohiym" than is means "HS, a special medium, and a special wind from GOD".

Is that how you play your word game with words?

Passage one

"Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of "sin-offering" flesh, and for "sin-offering", condemned "sin-offering" in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
What term and meaning is this? According to Dave, the natural wind, the natural medium, unknown?
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


What term and meaning is this? According to Dave, the natural wind, the natural medium, unknown?

If you wander through all the ruwach sentences, qodesh ruwach and ruwach, mean the same thing, the authors get lazy and write brevity.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

What term and meaning is this? According to Dave, the natural wind, the natural medium, unknown?

If your flesh is already worldly what than is the spirit? A reference to your natural spirit dwelling in you? No, according to Dave this have to be the"spirit of man", so the meaning here is unknown.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

What than is the difference between the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ, as well as the term "spirit"?

10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
"spirit of him" who is that? the "spirit of him" dwelleth in humans who are saved? Which spirit is that?

Passage two
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


No mention of spirit of God or spirit of man, who or which is which here Dave?

Ro 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body


No mention of spirit of God or spirit of man, who or which is which here Dave?

Ro 8:26 ¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


No mention of spirit of God or spirit of man, who or which is which here Dave?
Passage three

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.


Here we have spirit of god identified as Holy Spirit, but in the next sentence the term "holy" is left out? Is this OK? to me yes, saves time writing the same bigger word meanings all the time, like the way Jews did not write YWHW, but often adonai or Yah, they wrote smaller word meanings for the same thing. Auzzies often make short cuts in our speech, we do not speak long names, it become an idiom for us . But Dave thinks the term "spirit and spirit of God" are different meanings?

Passage four

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

What does the term "spirit" mean here? HS or evil spirit?

Since the word is Hebrew and has broad meanings, but ONE word meaning, the Robert answer, is the word means "medium" for all verses of context.

Sometimes the medium is referring to common or special or holy wind, as a medium in the air is wind.

Sometimes the medium is the medium through which GOD speaks to man, and the medium through which man speaks to God. Who adminstrates this communication channel? the Shadday does, functioning as a medium adminstrator for the flow of God or the flow of man.

Sometimes the medium is the medium through which evil angels speak to man, and the medium through which man speaks to sinning angels. This medium is also administrated by the HS, but the flow of RA through the medium comes entirely from the sinning nature of the wicked angels who wish to possess the mind of the humans seeking RA.

So for every context, the word "ruwach" means "medium". A medium is not a Being per se', it is a construct of two media in which a flow of power occurs. Most natural medium do not require beings to allow them to work, however the medium (ruwach) is special in that a divine Being is administrating this special medium.

Only the context will tell you which flow is which through the medium. A flow from God, a flow from Man or a flow from sinning Cherubims.

Dave's view is entirely different. As I am lead to believe, you replace medium for spirit, which is some independent entity, that was created in day 6 of creation, and can talk and move freely under it's own powers. Thus to Dave the spirit is a BEING of entity that uses biological bodies as a tool to inhabit, and witness for GOD.

The spirit of God is not an independent entity with Dave, as this is just a feminine expression of the Father, that can talk and move and travel on earth in this expression. I have trouble understanding this expression, as the Gnostic writings say the feminine expression created without the Father knowing, so suggests the feminine expression is independent, or that the Father does things without cognitive knowing? Something I find impossible to fathom, as not a sparrow falls to the ground without the Father knowing.

Question" Can a spirit entity be independent as a being?

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Answer" NO. The term ruwach means medium. Wind is not a thing you can grap in your fists or touch. Moving air is defined as wind. But air on it's own is not wind. Air is a media in which the wind as a medium flows.

This simple natural statement of Jesus tells us tha the term "spirit" is not a BEING, but a FUNCTION.

Can this function of a medium be managed by a Being? Yes.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

The medium el does, the breathing (nashamah of man) of the SHADDAY grants me ongoing living. (Rob's translation)

Here we see the Shadday administrates the medium, so the flow of ongoing living (from salvation) flows from the Father, via the Son, into humans who wish to receive it.

But Dave thinks we have an independent spirit given to us as our own from day 6 that lives and talks and moves but dwells in a biological body using it as a tool to witness for God.

My understanding of living energy, is that comes only when GOD (who alone is living and immortal) dwells with matter in the shape of the human body, and in partnership with the human, the man becomes living energy.

If that relationship to GOD is removed, the body dies, the soul dies, and the medium returns to GOD, who provided the ability for the human to live.

When "Rabbi say the spirit lives" after the human body dies, they are referring to GOD who alone is living and immortal. The man can only live again if GOD decides to partner again with the dead body of the human, and thus bring back the soul as living energy. This is called a resurrection.

Does than the human have the ability to develop it's own personal unique personality of love? Absolutely we can and do. This is seen in the term "nashamah" which is also used at the same time as "ruwach". The love of GOD, in Hebrew two words describe love, one love is providing, the other love is responding, and a third love, from the logical existence of the other two, is collective love, the child like love of both the other kinds of love.

Such a notion is like a family of love, with three personalities of love, but essentially one source of love.

Can a provider show providing love, without a responder responding? Yes, but this is not functional love. Love must be both providing and responding, otherwise it's not functional love. Can a provider provide without other personalities of love? No, otherwise this is dysfunctional also, like being selfish. Community love requires a cycle of love all the time, in fact this is what love and loving means. Love is relational.

Therefore having an independent spirit humans term as their own, as if God can give such a thing, is seen by me as selfish and a independent spirit that makes man like a god. I do not see love as ever being independent.

D"The spirit of man is placed within the biology at conception – Gen 2:7
R" Dave you write brevity all the time mostly.

That is NOT what I read from Scripture.

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Key word in Hebrew "became"
וַֽיְהִ֥י
way-hî and became Conj-w | V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms
From Hebrew Bible Hub, on the Internet.

Notice the fullest Hebrew words in this creation:

Dusty body + nashamah (breathing spirit of man) + ruwach (medium through which Father's power flows) makes this relationship BECOME living energy.

D"The spirit of man is placed within the biology at conception – Gen 2:7
R" Yes if you mean this"Dusty body + nashamah (breathing spirit of man) " but you forgot this "ruwach (medium through which Father's power flows) " you also forget the relationship part also.

Nothing apart from GOD can life. Matter on it's own cannot exist unless GOD empowers matter even.

SO not even the atom can exist unless God empowers the atom with motion.

D"In Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, we read that the soul is a guest in the body - Correct – the – your body it’s the tool we use to Jer 1:5 –
R: " The Hebrew
ִ֥וַֽיְהִ֥י
way-hî and became Conj-w | V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms

From Hebrew Bible Hub, on the Internet.

says man becomes a living soul, not that the soul is a guest of the body, but that the partnership of GOD with MAN (the dusty body) becomes a LIVING SOUL. The collective community as a whole.

Instead Dave and Jews break up the community as a whole into parts. This is not so.


D"Jews teach – man = (yester ra)+(yester tov) – I have never presented anything different
R" I see, than Jews see God creating RA into the biology of man from the beginning, not afterwards from sin?

D"In the New Heaven and New Earth – why will you need your 3D body of this past world – go figure
All thing will be new – leave your 3D physical world worship behind
R" Scripture does not teach this idea. Jesus does not have an ethereal body in heaven, the same old human body on earth, Jesus has in heaven, with the scars on it as well. memorial to sin-offering. too.

We walk into heaven with our old bodies renewed and recreated by the womb of the HS of GOD, not brand new at the resurrection.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Not brand new at baptism, but renewed, remade, restored at baptism. Jeff Benner says chadesh is like a new moon, not a brand new moon each month, but renewed each month.

D"Scripture says – it has not yet been reviled what we will be – but we will no long be like this – but be as he is – WHY MUST YOU ARGUE WORLD AGAINST SCRIPTURE
R" You twist all the verses on a theme to suit your theories

1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We are all changed at the last trumpet, with finishing touches of the creation process from the HS from our baptism, we put on immortality (whatever that means), death inside our cells is gone forever.

Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Same process here, in baptism we put on Jesus. The process begins here and ends at the last trumpet when Jesus returns.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Here the put one process is defined. The man becomes sinless, stops sinning, is fully loveable and in love with God.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Again the process is explained here, we put on Jesus after His image.

Rob writes and quote the Jews" in the Sages, Talmus and Midrash. Why don't Jews only read the Torah, instead they also read the traditions and precepts of men, something the torah tells us NOT to do?
Dave responds" Yet you quote Roman doctrine and Ellen White
And when I asked your opinion on Nebacanezzar’s dream you had to check with Walter Veith first
You even quote Jeff Brenner and Adam Clark – they have all helped formulate your views
Sound like Christian arrogant hypocrisy to me
R" I speak of the sola Scriptoria all the time, but often in the presence of others, I make sure my wisdom from Scripture is true and correct. I don't always agree with Veith and Benner, but have to with Mrs White, as her messages come from GOD. If your midrash doesn't agree with Moses torah, one should drop the midrash.
This is what I would do. I do not get the impression Jews do this at all.

DP"This word is used a lot more than just 29 times in all of Greek literature
RP" So when you do a word study, you do not use Sola Scriptoria, you also use the meanings of the word across other books and Greek sources as well?
D" DUH – it is the art of translation


RP" This is not fair to the words of GOD. You are the one playing word games
D" Jeff Brenner – and all of scriptural textual criticism all appreciate factual information
R" this is not respectful to the torah and the torah alone.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Not mention of other sources that use similar words, only the torah only. Use that always for your word definitions. You are wrong, off track to think you can use word meanings from other sources to twist the word meanings the Bible only wishes the word to mean.

D"Your and his constant reference that Gnostic teach that we are just little “sparks of divine”
What a bunch of propaganda hog wash – ZERO academic honesty – A complete misrepresentation of the literature
R" OH? Does the "spirit" come from GOD as a gift to the MAN from day 6 of creation? Hence a "little spark of divinity" is given to the man from day 6?

Are you suggesting instead that GOD can grant divinity ? Is this possible? Can GOD procreate "spirits" that a immortal and eternal, until God may wish to remove them at the second death? If God can remove them than the spirit is not immortal, nor eternal, so you are twisting the term spirit. Please explain with sentences, like I do.

Your expression thing, that the Father can express himself as feminine HS or as masculine Christ, suggests the Father procreates himself, calls forth Himself, creates Himself, to be further expressions of Himself later in time, when such a time is required? Is to me disrespectful to GOD, the great uncaused cause.

The great uncaused cause had to exist as three loving personalities all at once, from eternity without time and without matter and without space. A community of love from the beginning. But instead you make the Father expressing Himself when the Father is required to. This is not love nor it is love defined at all.

D"You mock the trinity – you mock the entire concept – you have 3 individual gods working together as a family
R" You mock the trinity with three expressions of the Father. The Father is the Father. The Father is the Son. And the Father is the HS. Hence we have one Father, and one love personality that have all three loving personalities inside the Father.
I have three loving personalities of love as a whole. One love, one source love as a whole, we humans term family. Each heart cell inside the heart is not independent from other heart cells, but they function as a whole for the community to function as a whole. Independent cells is called cancer, and a dysfunctional aspect of the heart.

You mock the creation of the heart saying each cell is an independent heart cell working as a family of cells of the heart. Who says they are independent? They could be, but the heart cells choose not to be. They work together as one community of love for the whole.
Such an arrangement demonstrates love in action, demonstrates the love of GOD, shows us the echad nature of GOD, but you refuse to listen, you mock the cells of the heart, you promote the cancer of Scripture.

SHalom

[Dave]

To admit God cannot create a sinless body from matter without RA in it as a byproduct of creation, makes God less capable than God really is.
No one has ever suggested that the New Heaven and New Earth is beyond God’s capabilities
Rome 1:19 + Psa 19:2 simple tell us that this is not that world

D" Because your word game fails – spirit means spirit – that is all it mean
Holy Spirit – is the Spirit of God
Man’s spirit – is the spirit of man
R" Oh, so ruwach doesn't mean HS or medium or a special wind from God,
Spirit means spirit – DUH stop playing word games
Yes the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God – I see this as the omnipresent matrix/ ether, you say medium

Is an evil spirit the medium that sustains the All? – are evil spirits just your HS
Are angelic spirits just your HS – Cherub are just your HS – your satan is your HS - so your satan is a full part of your godhead of 3 gods - no wonder you call your satan a god

Dave's view is entirely different. As I am lead to believe, you replace medium for spirit, which is some independent entity, that was created in day 6 of creation, and can talk and move freely under it's own powers.
Correct angelic spirits are spirits – they are each a unique independent individual
Correct evil spirits - are each a unique independent individual

Thus to Dave the spirit is a BEING of entity that uses biological bodies as a tool to inhabit, and witness for GOD.
Correct – Eve could not witness to this world from Paradise / Eden – she had to step down into this lower world
Correct – Christ – came to earth as a biological man to Jer 1:5 – and his spirit returned to God
Correct – man – comes to earth as a biological man to Jer 1:5 – and our spirit returns to God

The spirit of God is not an independent entity with Dave, - YES ROBERT GOD IS SPIRIT

The spirit of God is not an independent entity with Dave, as this is just a feminine expression of the Father, that can talk and move and travel on earth in this expression.
YES – the Spirit of God is omnipresent

I have trouble understanding this expression,
Correct – you deny the spirit

Question" Can a spirit entity be independent as a being?
Are evil spirit just your HS – are angels just your HS – cherubs are just your HS – so satan is just your HS

When "Rabbi say the spirit lives" after the human body dies, they are referring to GOD who alone is living and immortal.
No they are not

D"Jews teach – man = (yester ra)+(yester tov) – I have never presented anything different
R" I see, than Jews see God creating RA into the biology of man from the beginning, not afterwards from sin?
DUH – finally you get it

D"Your and his constant reference that Gnostic teach that we are just little “sparks of divine”
What a bunch of propaganda hog wash – ZERO academic honesty – A complete misrepresentation of the literature
R" OH? Does the "spirit" come from GOD as a gift to the MAN from day 6 of creation? Hence a "little spark of divinity" is given to the man from day 6?
Are you suggesting instead that GOD can grant divinity ? Is this possible?
You enjoy being an ass – is this the only way you can defend your satan view

Are angels divine – are evil spirits divine – according to you they are all the divine HS because ruach is in their name
Or is your HS not divine?

Before we discuss this further – please explain to me the difference between believing disciples and disciples that have been baptized by the Holy Spirit
You talk all around the subject – instead take it head on – what is Baptism of the HS?

[Dave]

Please explain the SDA difference between a believer with faith and a Born Again Christian
Answer here please

ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/541/believers-vrs-born-again?page=1&scrollTo=6880

Dec 26, 2021 9:43:25 GMT -5 Dave said:

Dec 25, 2021 20:16:27 GMT -5 Dave said:

Does this term gnosis really mean anything else except knowledge?
Correct Robert – gnosis means knowledge – nothing more or less
What does Jeff Benner say about gnosis?

[Deleted]

D"No one has ever suggested that the New Heaven and New Earth is beyond God’s capabilities
Rome 1:19 + Psa 19:2 simple tell us that this is not that world
R" OK so why didn't GOD make our world perfect for humans than?

D"Is an evil spirit the medium that sustains the All? – are evil spirits just your HS
Are angelic spirits just your HS – Cherub are just your HS – your satan is your HS - so your satan is a full part of your godhead of 3 gods - no wonder you call your satan a god
R" do you understand what a medium is Dave, and how mediums function?

D"Correct angelic spirits are spirits – they are each a unique independent individual
Correct evil spirits - are each a unique independent individual
R" Independent, yes, as creatures, "spirits" no

A creature cannot be a medium Dave. Do not understand what a medium is or how mediums function?
Obviously not.


RP" Thus to Dave the spirit is a BEING of entity that uses biological bodies as a tool to inhabit, and witness for GOD.
D Correct
R" This is a myth Dave. A spirit cannot be a BEING, or a CREATURE.

(1) A spirit is a quality of GOD and only by GOD. and secondly
(2) A spirit is a medium, a function of our material world sustained by GOD.

My point is "a spirit cannot be a Created Creature".
My next point is "GOD cannot give a part of Himself, as a BEING to others to own" God can impart his powers of love to others, that is OK, but not impart HIMSELF to others, for only GOD is immortal.

We can be like God but never as GOD.

D"Correct – Christ – came to earth as a biological man to Jer 1:5 – and his spirit returned to God
R" not sure I like what you are saying here. If the Father is expressing Himself as a Father on earth, and the Father expression on earth dies, how can the Father return His spirit to the Father in heaven? Did the Father create a part of Himself, a second part of Himself so it can return? Your Gnostic ideas make no sense Dave.

My understanding Jesus is fully divine with His own divinity apart from HIs Father, He came to earth as elohioym power, in the form of a human, the human part is achieved as humans have them, with a breath of breathing from the Father, via the HS. The divinity of Jesus could not take place in this, as Jesus has faith in His Father. DO you even understand my view?


D"Are evil spirit just your HS
R" NO the cherub sins and the sin flows via the HS medium, for others to see the sin and it's powers.

Does this make sense to you?


Remember nothing exists, not even moving atoms, unless God is present somewhere in a relationship.


RP" When "Rabbi say the spirit lives" after the human body dies, they are referring to GOD who alone is living and immortal.
D" No they are not
R" Than they are their father, the devil, not satanas, your made up Gen 6 devil, but the burning one who opposed God and said to Eve, thou shalt not surely die, for your spirit inside you is eternal, and cannot die at the first death. This is a myth Dave. Your rabbi is deceiving you sorry.

RP" R" I see, than Jews see God creating RA into the biology of man from the beginning, not afterwards from sin?
D" DUH – finally you get it
R" I pity your religion, worshipping a God who allows and likes sin with RA, but cannot stand transgression and Sin, you make both terms different. RA is a fruit of SIN, and something GOD hates, both of these terms. Fancy you saying GOD created natural RA, but not moral RA, I invent terms because I hate this abomination you suggest.

RP" Are you suggesting instead that GOD can grant divinity ? Is this possible?
D" You enjoy being an ass –
R" you didn't answer my question Dave.

God cannot create a part of Himself as a BEING, not possible, for only GOD is immortal. Your Gnostic serpent is lying, thou shalt not surely die, for your spirit lives in you does not die at the first death? How did the Devil know this? Because Satan sinned and had not died yet.

D"Before we discuss this further – please explain to me the difference between believing disciples and disciples that have been baptized by the Holy Spirit
R" changing themes again are we?

Must you add confusion to your already confusion, must we ponder confusion, rather than ponder clarity?

Shalom

[Dave]

D"No one has ever suggested that the New Heaven and New Earth is beyond God’s capabilities
Rome 1:19 + Psa 19:2 simple tell us that this is not that world
R" OK so why didn't GOD make our world perfect for humans than?

Jewish answer - God's Will / God's Plan

Gnostic Christian answer

Authoritative Teaching – Nag Hammadi Library
And before anything came into being, it was the Father alone who existed, before the worlds that are in the heavens appeared, or the world that is on the earth, or principality, or authority, or the powers. [...] appear [...] and [...] And nothing came into being without his wish.

He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear, and make all those who contend leave behind the things that had come into being, and despise them with a lofty, incomprehensible knowledge, and flee to the one who exists.

And (as for) those who contend with us, being adversaries who contend against us, we are to be victorious over their ignorance through our knowledge, since we have already known the Inscrutable One from whom we have come forth. We have nothing in this world, lest the authority of the world that has come into being should detain us in the worlds

Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed.

Why is the Contest so hard

The Exegesis on the Soul – Nag Hammadi Library
Again the savior said (cf Mt 5:4, Lk 6:12): "Blessed are those who mourn, for it is they who will be pitied; blessed, those who are hungry, for it is they who will be filled."

Again he said (cf. Lk 14:26), "If one does not hate his soul he cannot follow me." For the beginning of salvation is repentance. Therefore (cf. Acts 13:24), "Before Christ`s appearance came John, preaching the baptism of repentance."

And repentance takes place in distress and grief. But the father is good and loves humanity, and he hears the soul that calls upon him and sends it the light of salvation. Therefore he said through the spirit to the prophet (cf. 1 Cl 8:3), "Say to the children of my people, 'If your sins extend from earth to heaven, and if they become red like scarlet and blacker than sackcloth, and if you return to me with all your soul and say to me 'my Father!', I will heed you as a holy people.'"

Again another place (Is 30:15), "Thus says the lord, the holy one of Israel: "If you return and sigh, then you will be saved and will know where you were when you trusted in what is empty."

Again he said in another place (Is 30:19-20), "Jerusalem wept much, saying, 'Have pity on me.' He will have pity on the sound of your weeping. And when he saw, he heeded you. And the lord will give you bread of affliction and water of oppression. From now on, those who deceive will not approach you again. Your eyes will see those who are deceiving you."
-------------

D"Is an evil spirit the medium that sustains the All? – are evil spirits just your HS
R" do you understand what a medium is Dave, and how mediums function?
D"Correct angelic spirits are spirits – they are each a unique independent individual
Correct evil spirits - are each a unique independent individual
R" Independent, yes, as creatures, "spirits" no
OK – your angels are (creatures + HS) – evil creatures are (evil creatures + HS) – man =(animal + HS)

Therefore your satan = (creature + HS)
Why do you teach that the HS is evil?

R" This is a myth Dave. A spirit cannot be a BEING, or a CREATURE.
(1) A spirit is a quality of GOD and only by GOD. and secondly
(2) A spirit is a medium, a function of our material world sustained by GOD.
My point is "a spirit cannot be a Created Creature".
My next point is "GOD cannot give a part of Himself, as a BEING to others to own" God can impart his powers of love to others, that is OK, but not impart HIMSELF to others, for only GOD is immortal.

Correct Robert – this is the base of our disagreement – you deny the spirit
Please answer the question before you
Believers vrs Born Again
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/541/believers-vrs-born-again?page=1&scrollTo=6894

D"Correct – Christ – came to earth as a biological man to Jer 1:5 – and his spirit returned to God
R" not sure I like what you are saying here. If the Father is expressing Himself as a Father on earth, and the Father expression on earth dies,

Correct Robert – this is the base of our disagreement – you deny the spirit
Please answer the question before you
Believers vrs Born Again
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/541/believers-vrs-born-again?page=1&scrollTo=6894

Jesus the man died upon the cross
The Spirit of Christ was release back into God’s hands
Your teaching that your satan or man killed God is BLASTPHEMY

My understanding Jesus is fully divine with His own divinity apart from HIs Father
DO you even understand my view?
Christ and the Father must be two different gods.
Multiple God’s or anything other than only One True God

RP" When "Rabbi say the spirit lives" after the human body dies, they are referring to GOD who alone is living and immortal.
D" No they are not
R" Than they are their father, the devil,
YES – this is the Roman view – those Jews are the enemy – you even say they never knew their own language or theology
But – you also say you are not Roman or influenced by their doctrine – except their doctrine of satan god

RP" Are you suggesting instead that GOD can grant divinity ? Is this possible?
God cannot create a part of Himself as a BEING, not possible, for only GOD is immortal.
You teach angels – (creatures + HS)
You teach man – (animal + HS)
You teach all creatures are divine – all creatures are the HS
you also need to provide scripture that the angels and archon all have a mortal death

D"Before we discuss this further – please explain to me the difference between believing disciples and disciples that have been baptized by the Holy Spirit
R" changing themes again are we?

It is the base of our disagreement – you deny the spiritual
Must you add confusion to your already confusion,
Nope – my views are very clear – the only thing we know of your view so far is that- you disagree
Present the SDA way – teach us – there is a thread waiting for you

As soon as we clear up this question of spirit – I will post your teaching on Faith in its entirety
But – the conversation will be useless if all of your rebuttal evidence is that – you disagree

EVERYONE KNOWS YOU DISSAGREE

Teach us what you disagree with – answer the question of being a Born Again Christian
Why wasn’t FAITH enough for the disciples?
And what is the ‘more’ beyond FAITH?

Believer vrs Born Again - Baptism of the Holy Spirit
ponderingconfusion.proboards.com/thread/541/believers-vrs-born-again?page=1&scrollTo=6894

[Deleted]

D"He, then, the Father, wishing to reveal his wealth and his glory, brought about this great contest in this world, wishing to make the contestants appear,
R" That sounds perfectly like supporting a Great Controversy Dave?

D"Gen 3:15 I will put animosity between you and the woman—between your seed and her seed.

Why is the Contest so hard
R" you mean Great Controversy is so hard.

D"Why do you teach that the HS is evil?

R Try reading my website a little more : spiritualsprings.org/ss-1033.htm


Most mediums are natural without personal administrators, some mediums need a human touch.

light (media) enters glass (media) and is bent, a medium affect.

air moves from hot air (media) towards cold air (media) and is twisted, a medium affect.

Father love (media) travels to humans (media) and is atoned, a medium affect (personally administrated by another divine Being, the Shadday, who oversees the medium affect.)


D"Christ and the Father must be two different gods.
R" What does different gods mean Dave?

How is one heart cell different to the other heart cell? They are not independent cells. They choose to work as one. Sure they could be independent, but this is a sin, and hence dysfunction, (ie cancer cells) so the cells choose to be one flesh. The heart is made of many cells, yes, but they chose to lose their in-dependency, they work and function as one.

So explain what you mean "different gods" because I would term Jesus and the Father one source of love, but different personalities of loving.

I would never say the Father and Jesus are different gods. no, wrong idea. 

D" You teach all creatures are divine – all creatures are the HS
R" silly Dave, God breathed via the MEDIUM, a flow of HIS powers and all the matter as creatures become alive.
A medium is a vessel through which powers flow. Look at the webpage picture above.

A medium is administrated by the Shadday, yes, just as a microscope is. Most medium affects are natural, some require a human touch. God also uses a medium as well, and requires a divine touch.

D" you also need to provide scripture that the angels and archon all have a mortal death
Devil and his angels are thrown into non existence

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

D"EVERYONE KNOWS YOU DISAGREE
R" Actually we have much agreement too

Shalom