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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2022 13:55:28 GMT -5
D" You admit – you deny scriptureR 1Co 14:1 Pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, Maybe we can both go to the Muslim countries and speak Muslim to them? 1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to people but to God—for no one understands, but in the Ruach he speaks mysteries. If I was in Australia speaking Muslim language, people would think I was mad. God wouldn't though. 1Co 14:4 One who speaks in a tongue builds up himself... I sat once next to a Polish man, who spoke Polish better than English, and read a polish Bible. 1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues This is useful in places where many languages exist, like PNG. D" Is this why you will not admit to doubting the magical stories of the spiritual in the ahl/OTR" I not deny them, the latest SDA tongue speaking in Muslim was Ron Wyatt in 1981, in prison in Jordan. D" You have three different unguic and independent parts to your modelR" do you NOT also Dave, have three different and independent parts to your model ? How is your model any different to mine? If masculine expression is praying to a expression in heaven, both termed Father and Son, is this not two gods praying support to each other in faith? Come on Dave, what would a Jew think of your view? D" Not an answer – why do you say you have two kings and two gods? You call it the Great ControversyR" to a layperson maybe, but really it is more like a Father with a rebellious child, doing sin. The Father created the child, but with free will, the child became rebellious and loved sinning. So this is termed a Great Controversy. The child pretends to be a king, or really prince of this world. This prince only at best spoils the Father's world of love, and one day after the SIN is resolved, will the Father be glorified. D" This is not an answer – why do you deny there are individual and independent spirits.Dave nothing is ever independent, you know that. Atoms require the energy of God to spin Matter requires God's order to stay as order structures of stuff in space Biological parts require divine information so that it follows God's precise instructions God Himself as a medium lives with this biology imparting a breath of life, so the spirit imparts to the matter, a living soul. God allows the spirit in man to develop and use (or abuse) God's love flowing into Him. We have free will (also given to us by God) to grow our own stewardship of His powers, as our own. Everything is built upon relationship, nothing is ever truly independent. D" Angelic spirit / evil spirits / and man’s spirit are just the Holy Spirit to youR" arrh no, the medium is a powerful agent for allowing sin to flow, without is being destroyed by God, so if a sinning angel sins in the medium of God, how is this of God or God's fault? No it is only the desire of the sinner who sins. Once Dave, a messanic Jew, friend of mine, couldn't set up his words on the Internet, due to changes in the code, so I agreed to help him set up his words and pages. All those words and pages I opposed him, and we battled over 100 emails over issues, He says Jesus never pre-existed...and he is a Messanic Jew, go figure...different to you. But just because I set up his words I oppose, does not mean I agree with his words, I just in wanted to help him achieve something I could do with my love, if He has in this, words I disagree with, that is his business, not mine. I was just an agent for his words, not the words themselves. Do you get what I am saying? I just placed code over his words so they could appear on the www, I was his medium, but not his media. His words appeared on the www, and I opposed them with over 100 emails. D" Jesus – biologicval Son of man died – the Image of God – God incarnate did not die that spirit returned to heaven Your denial of scripture is overwhelmingR" Arrh no Dave. I am concerned how you read things. SO only the biology of Jesus died, not the spirit? OK where are Jesus thoughts and emotions stored, in the spirit or the body? Why do you break up the soul into different parts, when Scripture does not do this? It says body + GOD in partnership, allows the body to become a SOUL. You say man is biology PLUS spirit, that is not correct. There is a Hebrew word you ignore, it means to "become" in Gen 2:7 The man with GOD in partnership became a soul. Without GOD man cannot be living nor exist at all, you agree with this, but never factor this idea into your equations of mankind. Jesus was fully divine so divinity, is a thing not of matter or of spirit, but totally the uncaused cause. Jesus added to divinity, humanity, which requires a partnership with GOD to allow a human soul. So divinity (made silent) + humanity (with partner ship to God) Jesus became a human soul. When Jesus died, the partnership with GOD broke up, and Jesus was alone, His own divinity kept the body that died living, and the Father came down to impart living into the body one again, to restore the faith connection of the body to a partnership with His Son, and Jesus rose as a human with his divinity as before. Hence Jesus truly died in the sense of death as defined as dissolution of relationship. D" You even misrepresent yourself - I said you were pathologicalR" no Dave, when a person with a different view reads words you cannot see, you ignore them and write what your mind wants to write. It's a common thing we all do, me too. We hear only what we are trained to hear. This is why I am patient with you, over 1000 posts to help us see things together. I have learned things from you too. D" Except you refuse to define the term MORTAL – according to you angels are mortal alsoR" Yes all creatures are mortal, only God is immortal. However if you seek not to sin, you are therefore remaining with God who is immortal, and in this sense you put on immortality, as you seek never to break relationship. D" In this biological body of (yester ra) we have forgottenR" Hmm? Interesting D" The Leningrad Codex is the oldest complete manuscript of the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew, using the Masoretic TextR" I will get back to you on this idea? D" This is unfortunately not always very accurate, and his claims that the Peshitta Gospels represent the Aramaic original underlying the Greek Gospels are entirely without foundation; such views, which are not infrequently found in more popular literature, are rejected by all serious scholarsR" Somebody's opinion. I was once to read James Barr, the fallacy of the hebrew root word idea. Chapter 2. I opposed him immediately and others like him, yet his book is taught in SDA schools to this day. Just because you agree or disagree, does not make him an authority. DO you own research. D "I tried to share the Hebrew version with you before – it comes complete with morphological analysis of syntax and grammar D"All of your talk of returning to the original Hebrew is nonsense You won’t even look at itR" OK show me a link you approve of and I will look at it? OK Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 4, 2022 17:44:32 GMT -5
D"You admit – you deny scripture R 1Co 14:1 Pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, Maybe we can both go to the Muslim countries and speak Muslim to them? Tongues is not the only gift 1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to people but to God—for no one understands, but in the Ruach he speaks mysteries. OH – scripture says this language is for / to God not men But you say it is worthless nonsense and satanic
If I was in Australia speaking Muslim language, people would think I was mad. God wouldn't though. Why do you cares what the WORLD thinks – serve the Lord without reservation
1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues This is useful in places where many languages exist, like PNG. YET – you say it is satanic and worthless and definitely not Christian
D"Is this why you will not admit to doubting the magical stories of the spiritual in the ahl/OT R" I not deny them, The story of Elisha and his servant – real or fiction – take a stand
D"You have three different unguic and independent parts to your model R" do you NOT also Dave, have three different and independent parts to your model ? NOPE – ONLY ONE TRUE GOD – You can experience His Spirit – or his Image
If masculine expression is praying to a expression in heaven, both termed Father and Son, is this not two gods praying support to each other in faith? Come on Dave, what would a Jew think of your view? So you absolutely deny that God can be in two places at the same time Then your God is not omnipotent, or omnipresent
D"This is not an answer – why do you deny there are individual and independent spirits. Dave nothing is ever independent, you know that. So your satan god and his evil spirits are just the HS – why do you call the Holy Spirit evil
God allows the spirit in man to develop and use (or abuse) God's love flowing into Him. We have free will (also given to us by God) to grow our own stewardship of His powers, as our own. But you say man has no spirit – we are the HS
Once Dave, a messanic Jew, friend of mine, couldn't set up his words on the Internet, due to changes in the code, so I agreed to help him set up his words and pages. All those words and pages I opposed him, and we battled over 100 emails over issues, He says Jesus never pre-existed...and he is a Messanic Jew, go figure...different to you. And you say Christ is not the Father – so what – who cares what other beieve
D"Except you refuse to define the term MORTAL – according to you angels are mortal also R" Yes all creatures are mortal, only God is immortal. OK – then answer the question when do all of God’s angels die a mortal death
D"The Leningrad Codex is the oldest complete manuscript of the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew, using the Masoretic Text R" I will get back to you on this idea?
D"This is unfortunately not always very accurate, and his claims that the Peshitta Gospels represent the Aramaic original underlying the Greek Gospels are entirely without foundation; such views, which are not infrequently found in more popular literature, are rejected by all serious scholars R" Somebody's opinion. YES ROBERT – all history – all scholarship is error according to you – you have to deny so much reality to keep your doctrine alive
James Barr is not the only voice in textual criticism
D"I tried to share the Hebrew version with you before – it comes complete with morphological analysis of syntax and grammar D"All of your talk of returning to the original Hebrew is nonsense You won’t even look at it R" OK show me a link you approve of and I will look at it? OK Been all through this once before
(google) westminster hebrew morphological code About 495,000 results (0.55 seconds)
Westminster Hebrew Morphology - DoctorDaveThttps://www.doctordavet.com › twwhmsummary This module provides for incredibly detailed searching of the Hebrew text of the Old Testament (Leningrad Codex). This module is built for everyone who ...
This is where I got mine – First I had to download THE WORD (a software just like eSword) – the it was a $25 attachment
Biblia Hebraica Westmonasteriensis with Westminster Hebrew ...https://www.logos.com › product › biblia-hebraica-west... The Westminster Hebrew Morphology was one of the first databases of the Hebrew Bible ever widely distributed both among scholars and in a variety of commercial ...
Westminster Hebrew Morphology Codes - Original Languageshttps://forums.accordancebible.com › topic › 10391-we... Aug 4, 2013 — Westminster Hebrew Morphology Codes · Kirk E. Lowery · Westminster Hebrew Morphology · codes · natural language ... coding discrepancy between BHS and BHS-T - Bug Swatters - Mac ... Aug 8, 2021 Westminster Hebrew Morphology (WHM) 4.22 is Released Dec 8, 2020 wrong parsing code? - Original Languages - Accordance Forums Feb 21, 2021
A Reference Guide to the Westminster Hebrew Morphology ...http://library.mibckerala.org › MORPHmanualPDF Mar 17, 2003 — The Westminster Hebrew Morphology Database (MORPH) is, up to version 5.0, a simple ASCII ... The following table lists the codes used:.
Morphology Codes - Logos Bible Software Wikihttps://wiki.logos.com › morphology_codes Westminster Hebrew Morphology — These are the codes you see entered in the Find box when you type @ and select from the dropdown menu in a Morph Search.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2022 14:59:44 GMT -5
D"OH – scripture says this language is for / to God not men But you say it is worthless nonsense and satanic R" When God talks to me, daily and often, He speaks English, so I understand.
D"The story of Elisha and his servant – real or fiction – take a standT R" real.
D"So you absolutely deny that God can be in two places at the same time Then your God is not omnipotent, or omnipresent R" I see, I didn't know that GOD can be as physical shapes in humans into hundreds of shapes and hundreds of human like forms talking to hundreds of humans all over the world at the same time?
Wow is this your idea of omnipresent? Sorry not mine. To me GOD is ONE shape, ONE form and have ONE expression of HIS being. The omnipresent powers you speak of is the big GOD who listens and hears, and carries the world in His hand, not hundreds or even two tangible forms of GOD visible to humans. That would surely confuses humble humans.
Light is omnipresent, it doesn't split into hundreds of candles all over the world. The omnipresent power refer to the every searching aspects of light, not the tangible appearance of GOD as light.
Why can't you admit your model is wrong? D"So your satan god and his evil spirits are just the HS – why do you call the Holy Spirit evil R now who si the ass? Mediums are not media Dave. satan god and his evil spirits are media. The HS is a medium process administrated by the Shadday as media. A pipe line, a piece of glass, a river of water, that allows energy to flow through, that is own by somebody else?
Just because God empowers steel to move, and bullets to fly, does not mean YOU who triggered the gun, cannot blame GOD for allowing the bullet to kill another person. Come one Dave.
RP"God allows the spirit in man to develop and use (or abuse) God's love flowing into Him. We have free will (also given to us by God) to grow our own stewardship of His powers, as our own. D" But you say man has no spirit – we are the HS
R" Can't you read my words? Obviously not "God allows the spirit in man to develop and use (or abuse) God's love flowing into Him"
So we can develop a spirit of our own, stewards of His love, that becomes us. Is this idea alien to you? You created girls, don't they become like you but also independent to a degree?
D"OK – then answer the question when do all of God’s angels die a mortal death R Only sinning angels die, after judgment Rev 20
Other sinless angels continue to live and God alone is living. They remain with God. Moses remained with GOD for 40 days without food and water. Mrs White remained with God for hours in vision and no breathing occurred.
D"James Barr is not the only voice in textual criticism R correct, but I disagree with James Barr, I accept Jeff benner.
D"This module provides for incredibly detailed searching of the Hebrew text of the Old Testament (Leningrad Codex). R" OK will look into it, and get back to you. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 6, 2022 3:11:59 GMT -5
D"OH – scripture says this language is for / to God not men But you say it is worthless nonsense and satanic R" When God talks to me, daily and often, He speaks English, so I understand. 1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to people but to God—for no one understands, but in the Ruach he speaks mysteries. D” scripture says this language is for / to God not men But you say it is worthless nonsense and satanic Why do you deny scripture
D"The story of Elisha and his servant – real or fiction – take a standT R" real. Then why do you deny spiritual event happening today – you call it works of the devil
D"So you absolutely deny that God can be in two places at the same time Then your God is not omnipotent, or omnipresent R" I see, I didn't know that GOD can be as physical shapes in humans into hundreds of shapes and hundreds of human like forms talking to hundreds of humans all over the world at the same time? Wow is this your idea of omnipresent? No – your outrageous example is not my view of the Trinity – and you know it but that did not stop you from mispresenting me and Christianity 1- if Christ wanted to be in many places as a man on earth at the same time – I say sure – he is omnipotent 2- but the Christian view is that God came to earth as Jesus Christ – God incarnate 3- I would even agree that Melchesideck was Christ on earth in the ahgl/OT 4- the 3 that came to Abraham – one was Christ
Sorry not mine. To me GOD is ONE shape, ONE form and have ONE expression of HIS being. Correct – then you need two more gods to complete your godhead
Light is omnipresent, it doesn't split into hundreds of candles all over the world. Why can't you admit your model is wrong? I have no idea what this statement even means – or what it has to do with this discussion
D"So your satan god and his evil spirits are just the HS – why do you call the Holy Spirit evil R now who si the ass? Mediums are not media Dave. satan god and his evil spirits are media. What is media – you say it is just biology – You say man has no spirit – no soul – we are only biology
RP"God allows the spirit in man to develop D" But you say man has no spirit – we are the HS R" Can't you read my words? Obviously not So we can develop a spirit of our own, stewards of His love, that becomes us. Man has no spirit – but we can grow one later – nonsense
D"OK – then answer the question when do all of God’s angels die a mortal death R Only sinning angels die, after judgment Rev 20 Answer the question – you say all angels are mortal – good or bad When do your angels suffer death of biology?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2022 14:32:19 GMT -5
D"2- but the Christian view is that God came to earth as Jesus Christ – God incarnate 3- I would even agree that Melchesideck was Christ on earth in the ahgl/OT 4- the 3 that came to Abraham – one was Christ R" Why don't you say "2- but the Christian view is that God came to earth as Jesus Christ – Father incarnate 3- I would even agree that Melchesideck was Father as Christ, on earth in the ahgl/OT 4- the 3 that came to Abraham – one was the Father as Christ
Why do you label the Father expression with different titles, if it's the Father?
D"What is media – you say it is just biology – You say man has no spirit – no soul – we are only biology R" Oh boy. Media is biology yes, from matter. You say angels are spirit, the same stuff GOD is made of, not of matter? How can that be, if angels are created by GOD?
I have never said man has no spirit, just not an independent spark of GOD, you term a spirit called my own. Sure man has the right to develop a spirit of his own, and yes Man has a soul, again you negate my view. Yes biology is of matter. Only God is not of matter, hence made from something we cannot fathom. Angels are of matter , not of GOD. Humans are of matter, not something of GOD. We become souls when GOD partners with our form (is the breath of life/ HS)
D"Man has no spirit – but we can grow one later – nonsense R" do you deny the SEED idea of GOD Dave? Jesus is a SEED, that grows in us.
Ps 2:12 Kiss the Son/SEED, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way,
D"When do your angels suffer death of biology? R" are you saying because good angels are mortal they must die? Why Dave? If you remain with GOD nothing dies.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 6, 2022 19:38:32 GMT -5
D"2- but the Christian view is that God came to earth as Jesus Christ – God incarnate R" Why don't you say "2- but the Christian view is that God came to earth as Jesus Christ – Father incarnate YES – this is correct Christ = God incarnate3- I would even agree that Melchesideck was Father as Christ, on earth in the ahgl/OT 4- the 3 that came to Abraham – one was the Father as Christ Why do you label the Father expression with different titles, if it's the Father?Because no man can see the face of God and live – Exd 33:20 But we can see His image = ChristD"What is media – you say it is just biology – You say man has no spirit – no soul – we are only biology R" Oh boy. Media is biology yes, from matter.OK – so man is just an animal – no spirit – no soulI have never said man has no spirit, just not an independent spark of GOD, you term a spirit called my own. Where did you get this idea? Not from me – not from Judaism – not from mainstream Christianity No one here has ever said this except you – so where do you get this from – or are you just making it up Sure man has the right to develop a spirit of his own,So now man is a creator – and we create our own spirit and soulsHow is this not contradictory to all of scripture? No second creator – no second creationYes biology is of matter. Only God is not of matter, hence made from something we cannot fathom. Angels are of matter , not of GOD. 1- please present your scripture – your view is contrary to Judaism – and all mainstream Christianity 2- www.compellingtruth.org/angels-Bible.htmlWhat are angels according to the Bible?Angels are created beings. They are an entirely separate type of creature from humans. People do not become angels after death, and angels do not become human. They are as different from us as we are from the animals. Angels are intelligent beings (Matthew 8:29; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Peter 1:12), they are emotional beings (Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Revelation 12:17), and each has an individual personality and will (Luke 8:28-31; 2 Timothy 2:26; Jude 6). Angels are spirit beings (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies.
3- jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1747-arelimAngels appear to man in the shape of human beings of extraordinary beauty, and are not at once recognized as angels (Gen. xviii. 2, xix. 5; Judges, vi. 17, xiii. 6; II Sam. xxix. 9); they fly through the air; they become invisible; sacrifices touched by them are consumed by fire; they disappear in sacrificial fire, like Elijah, who rode to heaven in a fiery chariot; and they appear in the flames of the thornbush (Gen. xvi. 13; Judges, vi. 21, 22; II Kings, ii. 11; Ex. iii. 2). They are pure and bright as heaven; consequently they are formed of fire and are encompassed by light (Job, xv. 15), as the Psalmist says (Ps. civ. 4, R. V.): "Who maketh winds his messengers; his ministers a flaming fire." Although they have intercourse with the daughters of men (Gen. vi.), and eat heavenly bread (Ps. lxxviii. 25), they are immaterial, not being subject to the limitations of time and space.Humans are of matter, not something of GOD. Absolutley agreeMan = (100% biology) + (our spirit) placed into our body at conception – Gen 2:7 We become souls when GOD partners with our form (is the breath of life/ HS)Sorry Robert – no new creation after Day 6D"Man has no spirit – but we can grow one later – nonsense R" do you deny the SEED idea of GOD Dave? Jesus is a SEED, that grows in us. Spirit is not a thing of biology that grows from a seedD"When do your angels suffer death of biology? R" are you saying because good angels are mortal they must die? Why Dave? It is the definition of the word MORTAL1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay. (google) What does it mean by flesh and blood Cannot inherit the kingdom of God?Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God means that our physical bodies must first be supernaturally transformed (by the Holy Spirit) into spiritual bodies before we can enter heaven which is in the spiritual realm. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2022 16:35:50 GMT -5
D" Because no man can see the face of God and live – Exd 33:20 But we can see His image = ChristR" If they say Jesus, as the image of the Father, how was this image made? The word image implies the use of science, using medium and different media, you are supporting my view, with HS as a medium and the SON of GOD showing us the Father in HIS SON. D" OK – so man is just an animal – no spirit – no soulR" Can't you grapple my view? , Animal, yes, but animals also have souls and they are empowered with living by the HS, the breath of life. But man is special, we are allowed to reason with GOD and develop His love into our own response, hence we develop a love that is our own, such a love partnership grows in us, as us.
I have grown in my Dad's love to be just like my Dad in many ways. spiritualsprings.org/ss-1056.htmI sent this letter to my Dad, before He passed away. The same is a simile of growing in my Father's love in heaven. RP" I have never said man has no spirit, just not an independent spark of GOD, you term a spirit called my own.D" Where did you get this idea? Not from me – not from Judaism – not from mainstream Christianity No one here has ever said this except you – so where do you get this from – or are you just making it up.R" Oh, so Dave never said this? You have said man has a spirit given to us from day 6 of Creation. How about quoting what you have said so far on this theme? D" 1- please present your scripture – your view is contrary to Judaism – and all mainstream ChristianityR" Eze 28:16 ..and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, Angels/cherubs/sinned Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, Angels/cherubs/created Hence angels are made of matter, same stuff of humans Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister Functionally the cherub are media,, sent forth under the medium (HS) to minister to humans. D" 2- www.compellingtruth.org/angels-Bible.html What are angels according to the Bible? Angels are created beings. They are an entirely separate type of creature from humans. People do not become angels after death, and angels do not become human. They are as different from us as we are from the animals. Angels are intelligent beings (Matthew 8:29; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Peter 1:12), they are emotional beings (Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Revelation 12:17), and each has an individual personality and will (Luke 8:28-31; 2 Timothy 2:26; Jude 6).R" agree D" Angels are spirit beings (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies.R" disagree. A created being cannot have no physical body, ie made of matter. Heb 1:14 does not say cherub are ruwach. Please get your word meanings correct and consistent. D" Angels appear to man in the shape of human beings of extraordinary beauty, and are not at once recognized as angels (Gen. xviii. 2, xix. 5; Judges, vi. 17, xiii. 6; II Sam. xxix. 9); they fly through the air; they become invisible; sacrifices touched by them are consumed by fire; they disappear in sacrificial fire, like Elijah, who rode to heaven in a fiery chariot; and they appear in the flames of the thornbush (Gen. xvi. 13; Judges, vi. 21, 22; II Kings, ii. 11; Ex. iii. 2). They are pure and bright as heaven; consequently they are formed of fire and are encompassed by light (Job, xv. 15), as the Psalmist says (Ps. civ. 4, R. V.): "Who maketh winds his messengers; his ministers a flaming fire."R" agree D" Although they have intercourse with the daughters of men (Gen. vi.), Jewish invention not based on the verse Gen 6 D" Dave posts a Jewish verse Ps 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. 25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.D" and eat heavenly bread (Ps. lxxviii. 25), they are immaterial, not being subject to the limitations of time and space.R" How can "cherub" who eat "man" daily, be "immaterial" ? If they eat food daily? Sounds biological to me? D" Sorry Robert – no new creation after Day 6R" How is a gamete joining another gamete become a new creation? Come on Dave. Please get serious, what does DNA adding to DNA got to do with a brand new "bara creation", the creation of DNA was completed with Adam and Eve, and ever since the DNA goes forth to multiply. You twist the word "creation". Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, "formed" is not "bara", it is AFTER the created, formed from created matter. The adding of DNA to other DNA, is formed, not a brand new creation "bara". D" Spirit is not a thing of biology that grows from a seedR" It's not? Than you cannot kiss the SEED of JESUS, so you cannot be saved, unless you agree that JESUS SPIRIT begins in you as a SEED that grows in you over time, making fruit along the way. D" It is the definition of the word MORTALR" NO Dave, mortal does not mean to die per se', immortality is a quality of GOD, mortality means something NOT of GOD, so mortality means to be separated by GOD, got nothing to do with death per se'. Death is our human way to understanding the relationship of humans to God. Cold is another human invented term, the absence of heat, or God. Evil is another human term, the absence of the presence of GOD in our lives. Death is another human term, the separation of GOD from living matter. D" What does it mean by flesh and blood Cannot inherit the kingdom of God? Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God means that our physical bodies must first be supernaturally transformed (by the Holy Spirit) into spiritual bodies before we can enter heaven which is in the spiritual realm.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.R" agree How about asking yourself Dave, why our old body must become renewed daily by the HS? I quote "transformed (by the Holy Spirit) into spiritual bodies before we can enter heaven " Key word " before" SO the transformation happens daily, now while we are living in our old body we get daily our new body. Why Dave? Because our old body has corrupted DNA and has propensities . The yester ra must be removed completely. Not as Jews say, mankind requires both yester ra and yester tov to develop correctly. Maybe in our fallen world, but the next world to come is unfallen, so we develop a body without RA in it. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 8, 2022 16:03:09 GMT -5
D" Because no man can see the face of God and live – Exd 33:20 But we can see His image = Christ R" If they say Jesus, as the image of the Father, how was this image made? Man = (biology) + (spirit) Jesus Christ = (Jesus - biology) + (God) = God incarnate Jesus Christ = (Jesus) + (Christ – the image of God) Jesus Christ = (Jesus) + (Christ) The devil tempted Jesus with worldly stuff – Christ said – it is written do not test you God On the cross – Jesus died (biology died – MORTAL) + Christ – (spirit returned to the heavens) D"OK – so man is just an animal – no spirit – no soul R" Can't you grapple my view? , Animal, yes, but animals also have souls and they are empowered with living by the HS, the breath of life.I agree – at the sub-atomic level the HS sustain the ALL – the good and the bad Animal brains and the thoughts that think return to the dustPsa 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes—in man, in whom there is no salvation. Psa 146:4 His breath departs, he returns to his dust. In that very day his plans perish. This has nothing to do with the spirit of man – our soul – that returns to the heavens for judgmentEcc 12:7 Then the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Ecc 12:8 “Evanescent vapors,” says Kohelet. All is futility. But man is special, we are allowed to reason with GOD and develop His love into our own response, hence we develop a love that is our own, such a love partnership grows in us, as us. YES – you can grow to love God more and more YES – your beliefs can become stronger and held with greater convictionsRP" I have never said man has no spirit, just not an independent spark of GOD, you term a spirit called my own. D" Where did you get this idea? Not from me – not from Judaism – not from mainstream Christianity No one here has ever said this except you – so where do you get this from – or are you just making it up. R" Oh, so Dave never said this? You have said man has a spirit given to us from day 6 of Creation. How about quoting what you have said so far on this theme?God creates the animals – each is a different unique independent individual – animals are biology God created the angels – each is a different unique independent individual – angels (messengers) are ethereal not biology but spirit – a spiritual being God created the Archon – each is a different unique independent individual – angels (messengers) are areal (according to Lutherism) ethereal + some matter (Gnostic) – an in-between being God created man – Adamus – the Perfect Race of Man – each is a different unique independent individual – ethereal not biology but spirit – a spiritual being… Gen 2:7 the Spirit of man is given to each animal man conceived – and man became a human being D"1- please present your scripture – your view is contrary to Judaism – and all mainstream Christianity D"2- www.compellingtruth.org/angels-Bible.htmlWhat are angels according to the Bible? Angels are created beings. They are an entirely separate type of creature from humans. People do not become angels after death, and angels do not become human. They are as different from us as we are from the animals. Angels are intelligent beings (Matthew 8:29; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Peter 1:12), they are emotional beings (Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Revelation 12:17), and each has an individual personality and will (Luke 8:28-31; 2 Timothy 2:26; Jude 6). R" agree D"Angels are spirit beings (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies. R" disagree.You pick and choose which scripture to believe or not We believe it all = precept upon precept, line upon lineHeb 1:14 does not say cherub are ruwach. Please get your word meanings correct and consistent. G4151 - πνεῦμα- pneuma - From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, D"Angels appear to man in the shape of human beings of extraordinary beauty, and are not at once recognized as angels (Gen. xviii. 2, xix. 5; Judges, vi. 17, xiii. 6; II Sam. xxix. 9); they fly through the air; they become invisible; sacrifices touched by them are consumed by fire; they disappear in sacrificial fire, like Elijah, who rode to heaven in a fiery chariot; and they appear in the flames of the thornbush (Gen. xvi. 13; Judges, vi. 21, 22; II Kings, ii. 11; Ex. iii. 2). They are pure and bright as heaven; consequently they are formed of fire and are encompassed by light (Job, xv. 15), as the Psalmist says (Ps. civ. 4, R. V.): "Who maketh winds his messengers; his ministers a flaming fire." R" agree D"Although they have intercourse with the daughters of men (Gen. vi.), Jewish invention not based on the verse Gen 6You pick and choose which scripture to believe or not We believe it all = precept upon precept, line upon lineR" How can "cherub" who eat "man" daily, be "immaterial" ? If they eat food daily? Sounds biological to me?Heavenly spirit beings eating heavenly food sounds heavenly and spiritual to meD"Sorry Robert – no new creation after Day 6 R" How is a gamete joining another gamete become a new creation? Come on Dave.You are talking about procreation - biology - worldSorry Robert – no new creation after Day 6D"Spirit is not a thing of biology that grows from a seed R" It's not? Than you cannot kiss the SEED of JESUS, so you cannot be saved, unless you agree that JESUS SPIRIT begins in you as a SEED that grows in you over time, making fruit along the way. YES ROBERT – belief and faith and love for the lord can grow stronger and stronger No one is denying thisD"It is the definition of the word MORTAL R" NO Dave, mortal does not mean to die a mortal death YES it does – all mortal / biology / corruptablity will pass awayD" What does it mean by flesh and blood Cannot inherit the kingdom of God? Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God means that our physical bodies must first be supernaturally transformed (by the Holy Spirit) into spiritual bodies before we can enter heaven which is in the spiritual realm. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. R" agree How about asking yourself Dave, why our old body must become renewed daily by the HS? I quote "transformed (by the Holy Spirit) into spiritual bodies before we can enter heaven " Key word "before"Because there is NO BIOLOGY in heaven – biology is a 3D thing of this WORLDSO the transformation happens daily, now while we are living in our old body we get daily our new body.Please demonstrate by walking through walking or appearing here before me – Jesus did and canScripture say it has not yet been revealed 1Jn 3:2 Loved ones, now we are God’s children; and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when it’s revealed, we shall be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. Why do you deny scripture - claim to be smarter that the word of God
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2022 16:03:55 GMT -5
D" This has nothing to do with the spirit of man – our soul – that returns to the heavens for judgmentR" Why must the soul/spirit require judgement outside the body? Why not wait until the soul/spirit is awaken in the body again, than judge him/her? D" Heavenly spirit beings eating heavenly food sounds heavenly and spiritual to meR" Dave, eating manna is the same way biological humans eat manna, in heaven. Manna still falls today in one place, since 1945, and it looks real to me, and tastes like food to those who eat it. D" Because there is NO BIOLOGY in heavenR" Are you sure Dave? What about angels eating manna, the same manna today some humans eat on earth since 1945? spiritualsprings.org/ss-1506.htmNamba is a small and drought-stricken village in Southern part of Angola, a Seventh Day Adventist missionary who spent nearly a lifetime in Africa established a mission in this village. This white missionary left and for some years the mission was under the care of a local director. One year the rains failed to come, the crops did not grow, and the mission stores were emptied and no money to buy food if it could have been found. The mission director had been away for some weeks on a trip visiting distant mission schools. The believers at the Missao Adventista da Namba came to the end of their resources and food supply. The director's wife called the families together and told them the situation. Then she read to the people the promises of the Lord and told them of the manna which had been sent by God to His people in the time of Moses, assuring them that God could send them food in the same way, if necessary. After prayer, a little girl, about five years of age, went out of the house and in a short time came back with her hands filled with white stuff, which she was eating."What are you eating?" asked the mother. The little lad replied: "Out there I saw some European men, and they said, `The Lord has answered your prayer and has sent you manna; take it up and eat it.' " D" Please demonstrate by walking through walking or appearing here before me – Jesus did and can Scripture say it has not yet been revealed Why do you deny scripture - claim to be smarter that the word of GodR" You do not read the whole context of the verse you quote Dave" 1Jo 3:1 ¶ Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. This passage is talking about having a full completed sense of LOVE in us, from our minds into our bodies. And if ye are fully born of LOVE, ye do not sin ever. What a body, mind and spirit, this will be?None of us know what love is, we barely love at all, and have never experienced the divine love of GOD fully completed in us, it begin as a SEED and this love grows... And if you continue sinning ye are children of the devil, for the devil sinned from the beginning. This passage must be hard for you Dave, since you have no devil sinning from the beginning. ANd what will this fully completed body of love look like? We can only imagine? It looks like the body Jesus had after His resurrection? Was it biological ? Yes, could it walk through walls ? Yes. Now trying writing a discussion with your verse next time Dave, so readers see how and why you twist the verses to suit your view. You simply pluck the verse out of it's context and twist a new application over it. The verse says we are NOW sons of GOD, but we lack that glowing HS cover over us Adam once had before He sinned. Ps 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: (KJV) Here is one aspect of being fully revealed what we will be like. Ps 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: 4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Here are some others, wee humans will become "mediums" not "spirits" as you claim, "mediums of God's power" what does this mean ? It means we have "flaming fire glowing like light" flowing over us. The word "saraph" means the burning ones, we humans will become "burning ones" fully of the fire, light and love of GOD. SHalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 9, 2022 19:25:05 GMT -5
D"This has nothing to do with the spirit of man – our soul – that returns to the heavens for judgment R" Why must the soul/spirit require judgement outside the body? Why not wait until the soul/spirit is awaken in the body again, than judge him/her?
YES Robert you teach the only goal is the grave – to await the First Resurrection so you can have your biology back
Judeo-Christianity is about becoming serving the Lord – being His hand here on earth – being His voice to our neighbors – being His witness to the whole world - becoming a Born Again spirit filled disciple for the Lord – First Fruits
The goal of Christianity is not to be Elisha’s servant – the goal is be Elisha
Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Araham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua, Isaiah, Ezekiel, David, Noah, Jonah = First fruits The disciples = First Fruits – Born Again Christians = First Fruits – in communion with the Holy Spirit = First Fruits – Paul – Stephan – the man on the cross next to Jesus in paradise TODAY All there around the throne before the First Resurrection (Rev 20:4)
Why not wait until the soul/spirit is awaken in the body again, than judge him/her? 1- Because we want to be servants of the Lord – tools for the Lord – USE ME 2- just to be a back seat believer waiting for the First Resurrection – is not the goal
D"Heavenly spirit beings eating heavenly food sounds heavenly and spiritual to me R" Dave, eating manna is the same way biological humans eat manna, in heaven. Manna still falls today in one place, since 1945, and it looks real to me, and tastes like food to those who eat it. Your god is so small – what happens when angels come into our 3D world – they appear 3D What happens when God comes into the world in a 3D form = God incarnate = Jesus Christ What happens when the shedim take 3D form – man can kill them What happens to Islamic Jinn that take on human form – man can kill them
When mana comes into 3D world – why is it something other than 3D physical?
D"Please demonstrate by walking through walking or appearing here before me – Jesus did and can Scripture say it has not yet been revealed Why do you deny scripture - claim to be smarter that the word of God R" You do not read the whole context of the verse you quote Dave"
1Jo 3:1-10 - This passage is talking about having a full completed sense of LOVE in us, from our minds into our bodies. YES Robert – when we are in Communion with the Holy Spirit (for his seed remaineth in us) – we are unable to sin
And if you continue sinning ye are children of the devil, for the devil sinned from the beginning. This passage must be hard for you Dave, since you have no devil sinning from the beginning. If you knew your scripture – judgment is worse for those who KNOW better and choose to sin anyway This is hard for you to understand because you deny that we will all pay of our deeds, works, and fruit – unless we receive the Divine Pardon The verse says we are NOW sons of GOD, but we lack that glowing HS cover over us Adam once had before He sinned. Correct – believers are new Christians – they lack the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
Here is one aspect of being fully revealed what we will be like. 4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Doesn’t sound like your 3D biology to me
Here are some others, wee humans will become "mediums" not "spirits" as you claim, "mediums of God's power" what does this mean ? It means we have "flaming fire glowing like light" flowing over us. The word "saraph" means the burning ones, we humans will become "burning ones" fully of the fire, light and love of GOD. Doesn’t sound like your 3D biology to me
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 13:33:59 GMT -5
D"All there around the throne before the First Resurrection (Rev 20:4
R Sure I support a First Fruits Ressurrection, but this is speaking of the whole body and whole soul and the whole mind, not a bits and pieces human conception, which is your view.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
First the soul that dies before Jesus comes to get us, sleeps in the grave, not as a spirit talking and pleading for some proportional judgement.
"so them also which sleep in Jesus " and "not prevent them which are asleep"
But you speak of spirits who are alive and talking.
1Th 5:6 ¶ Therefore let us not sleep,
Same idea, but talking about those who live during their living days, they walk around as if they were dead, in darkness, asleep. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
Same idea.
1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
ANd this is my corker, Dave. It says the whole spirit and soul and body be blameless
Not just soul and spirit.
SO again you are wrong with some RA in our bodies, that are left to die, while the spirit awakes a brand new body.
Our bodies are not given to us brand new, but renewed every day in the womb of the HS. You my friend deny the daily development of your body in the womb of the HS.
And you have cheek to say I deny the Spirit. You do
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
SO our renewed heart and right spirit is created daily.... what about our bodies too?
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
BIngo. Paul says the HS quickens our bodies also.
SO the whole soul, mind and body is renewed daily in the womb of GOD, via the HS.
You wait for a brand new body later on, after your body dies, and your spirit receives.
You deny the womb of the HS developing a renewed Dave every day. You deny the spirit.
You deny biology. Can't a renewed biology walk through walls? Well Jesus did.
RP" Why not wait until the soul/spirit is awaken in the body again, than judge him/her? D" 1- Because we want to be servants of the Lord – tools for the Lord – USE ME 2- just to be a back seat believer waiting for the First Resurrection – is not the goal R" THese are not answers Dave. Our witness is only in the NOW, not in the after life. Now is the day of salvation, not witnessing later. What benefit is it for a spirit to talk in the after life? Scripture says the body, soul and spirit sleeps during mortal death. You deny Scripture
D"When mana comes into 3D world – why is it something other than 3D physical? R" Oh, so the world where GOD is different to ours, these creatures live in another world of physics, and even a different world of biology, maybe a total different list of atoms run their bodies. Maybe . blah blah
No Scripture evidence Dave, just your theories. D"4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Doesn’t sound like your 3D biology to me R" Yes correct, it sounds like a new ramped up model of biology. A biology that walks through walls, does not have to breathe air, and has fire glowing off it. RP" The word "saraph" means the burning ones, we humans will become "burning ones" fully of the fire, light and love of GOD. D" Doesn’t sound like your 3D biology to me R" correct a new ramped up model of biology, beyond our wildest dreams. The same body we saw and heard Jesus had already after His resurrection. We have proof of what the body is like. Just not fully revealed as Scripture says.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 11, 2022 14:56:42 GMT -5
D"All there around the throne before the First Resurrection (Rev 20:4 R Sure I support a First Fruits Ressurrection, but this is speaking of the whole body and whole soul and the whole mind, not a bits and pieces human conception, which is your view.
1- First Fruits are there before the First Resurrection 2- The First resurrection is not of 3D biology 3- It has not yet been revealed what we will be – but we will be like Him – You deny scripture
First the soul that dies before Jesus comes to get us, sleeps in the grave, not as a spirit talking and pleading for some proportional judgement. Your Jesus sleep in the grave – you say his soul died – you deny He was still alive preaching to those in prision
"so them also which sleep in Jesus " and "not prevent them which are asleep" But you speak of spirits who are alive and talking. YEP – I am speaking about Born Again Christians – the First Fruits All you recognize are those believers that await the First Resurrection
1Th 5:6 ¶ Therefore let us not sleep, YES – wake up – be Born Again – become First Fruits
1Th 5:23 - ANd this is my corker, Dave. It says the whole spirit and soul and body be blameless Not just soul and spirit.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad.
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. SO our renewed heart and right spirit is created daily.... what about our bodies too? DUH – you corruption is so obvious – you can do better than this Our heart is FATTENED/enlarged – and OUR SPIRIT is renewed via Communion with the Spirit
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. BIngo. Paul says the HS quickens our bodies also. Bingo – you say this is true of every person on the planet the wicked and the righteous – for we are all just the HS – for man has no spirit of his own If every man is already spirit filled and led by the spirit (empowered) why does man require salvation?
RP" Why not wait until the soul/spirit is awaken in the body again, than judge him/her? D" 1- Because we want to be servants of the Lord – tools for the Lord – USE ME 2- just to be a back seat believer waiting for the First Resurrection – is not the goal R" THese are not answers Dave. Our witness is only in the NOW, not in the after life. YES Robert – we are to be awakened – renewed – Born Again – baptized by the Holy Spirt NOW – in this life so that are witness (Jer 1:5) is empowered
Scripture says the body, soul and spirit sleeps during mortal death. You deny Scripture Scripture say believers await the First Resurrection the First Fruits are already there
D"When mana comes into 3D world – why is it something other than 3D physical? R" Oh, so the world where GOD is different to ours, For the Millionth time – heaven is ethereal and 3D biology is corporeal
D"4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Doesn’t sound like your 3D biology to me R" Yes correct, it sounds like a new ramped up model of biology. Such denial – you are grasping desperately to nonsense to make a point
RP" The word "saraph" means the burning ones, we humans will become "burning ones" fully of the fire, light and love of GOD. D" Doesn’t sound like your 3D biology to me R" correct a new ramped up model ... The same body we saw and heard Jesus had already after His resurrection.
We have proof of what the body is like. Just not fully revealed as Scripture says. You know – but you don’t know – Hmmm is this SDA doctrine – pretend you know when you don’t
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 13:45:23 GMT -5
D" Bingo – you say this is true of every person on the planet the wicked and the righteous – for we are all just the HS – for man has no spirit of his own If every man is already spirit filled and led by the spirit (empowered) why does man require salvation? R" Sure the MEDIUM/HS ensures all the humans live under the breath of life.
However not all humans invite the same MEDIUM/HS to breath the breath of salvation.
One breath is a power for probation, the other a stronger breath of salvation via Jesus.
Wicked people receive a breathe of life for a while, but choose not to receive the breath of salvation, Jesus spirit which come only if ye are born again.
SO how many births just Scripture mention? two How many breaths? Two . One for each birth. Get the idea?
But how does your spirit be born again Dave, if it is already living? And forgotten GOD, that is not born again.
My theory has the old man dying and a new man born again, with a new spirit, the old nature is died in baptism and the new man with a new spirit is born. Hence a second birth. You deny the second birth process of salvation.
D"YES Robert – we are to be awakened – renewed – Born Again – baptized by the Holy Spirt NOW R If what you say is true, than your old spirit must die with your old body so your soul becomes a new spirit in Jesus. The process is a rewenal yes of the YOU as YOU, but really a brand new nature of YOU arrives in Jesus, so your old spirit must also die in Jesus upon baptism, ye must die, not just your body, and soul but also your spirit. Otherwise you are not really born again, you are mixing words and twisting Jesus words, Ye must be born again.
D" YES Robert – we are to be awakened – renewed – Born Again – baptized by the Holy Spirt NOW R" first fruits is NOT all for everybody, otherwise not first fruit. Again please explain
D"For the Millionth time – heaven is ethereal and 3D biology is corporeal R" so the Jesus we read raised was pretending to be biological to the disciples, His body was really a spirit body unknown to us?
D"you are grasping desperately to nonsense to make a point R" you cannot grasp perfection in utopia forms. Cannot GOD take Moses for 40 days and not give him food, or Mrs White in vision for hours and NOT breathe air? God can do anything with biology, you mock God's ability.
RP" We have proof of what the body is like. Just not fully revealed as Scripture says. D" You know – but you don’t know – Hmmm is this SDA doctrine – pretend you know when you don’t R better than your theory of saying everything is ethereal. Angels eat manna in heaven, same as humans eating manna on earth, sounds biological to me? Must you make Scripture ethereal and twist it so? Shalom
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Post by Dave on Jan 12, 2022 17:29:48 GMT -5
My theory has the old man dying and a new man born again, with a new spirit, the old nature is died in baptism and the new man with a new spirit is born. Hence a second birth. You deny the second birth process of salvation.
But how does your spirit be born again Dave, if it is already living? And forgotten GOD, D"YES Robert – we are to be awakened – renewed – Born Again – baptized by the Holy Spirt NOW R If what you say is true, than your old spirit must die What a bunch of nonsense – if you fill your car with gas – do you drain the tank first? It is called being FILLED – Spirit FILLED – How does God’s Spirit FILL you – by witnessing to our SPIRIT – SPIRIT TO SPIRIT COMMUNIUON
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 21:42:15 GMT -5
RP" R If what you say is true, than your old spirit must die D" What a bunch of nonsense – if you fill your car with gas – do you drain the tank first? It is called being FILLED – Spirit FILLED – How does God’s Spirit FILL you – by witnessing to our SPIRIT – SPIRIT TO SPIRIT COMMUNIUON
D"What a bunch of nonsense – if you fill your car with gas – do you drain the tank first? R" so you are saying our old memories are not removed, our old spirit who is us, remains with us, and we learn by communion of the Spirit of God with our spirit, we gnosis and are saved in this way?
R" We have another difference don't we Dave?
Notice the theme :- (some things of Paul are hard sayings, who can understand them?)
Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
R " As sinners we have to die the same way Jesus died, Jesus died laying down His life as a sin-offering for sin confessed unto the divine Saviour. Sure the old memories are not wiped, but the power of propensities has to be removed, so the sinning nature is removed. 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
R" Whose newness of life is this we walk in, ours or Jesus? I suspect we rise in Jesus, to begin cloning his life and his powers of His spirit in us, so we are renewed daily, created daily by words in His Faith. Not a process to gnosis Jesus, but to have faith in his powers to cleanse us and empower us.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
R" If we die with our old body in Jesus, and rise with His new body, and His mind and His spirit, we are not to sin anymore. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: R" faith here, we by faith shall live with Jesus.
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Please explain your view Dave. You have the idea that the old spirit continues to learn and be filled with the Spirit of GOD to our spirit , the same spirit that is eternal from day 6 of Creation.
Whereas I get the impression we have to die in Jesus, everything has to die, our soul, our mind, our body and our spirit, all dies in the grave and we are resurrected in Jesus under his spirit.
Quotes from Ellen White, as I am uncertain of this process in detail;
"Their religion (Pharisees) was made up of a round of ceremonies, through the performance of which they expected to gain the favor of God. They had no desire for a gospel that called for obedience to the word, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3. They felt that a religion based on such a doctrine, required too great a sacrifice, and they clung to their errors, deceiving themselves and others. "
"..“Born again” means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. "
"The lesson which Christ gave to Nicodemus is ..., but the most important knowledge to be gained is the experimental knowledge of what it means to be born again. "
"“Nicodemus saith unto Him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?” "Judas had valuable qualities, but there were some traits in his character that would have to be cut away before he could be saved. He must be born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible. His great hereditary and cultivated tendency to evil was covetousness. And by practice this became a habit which he carried into all his trading. "
R" So Mrs White is speaking of chamging the propensities witin our body, and mind.
What the SDA creed on baptism says"
BELIEF 15: BAPTISM By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 2:38; 16:30-33; 22:16; Rom. 6:1-6; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12, 13.)
R" Not enough details. The SDA speak of union with Christ. I would say we become more like clones of Christ, in a physical and spiritual sense.
"Since there is only one God, one Lord, one Spirit, one faith, one hope, and one body, there can be only one symbol (one type of baptism, by immersion) to represent the beginning of a new life and our identification with these great facts of Christianity and our acceptance into the body of Christ, the church. Matthew 3:13-16; Ephesians 4:3-6."
R" Interesting. How can you speak of our spirit that communes with Christ's spirit, if there is one spirit through which we are saved?
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
R" Wow, our old spirit must die, our old body must die, our soul must die, and we are raised from the water cleansed of all our sins, and we become in Jesus, one spirit.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
R" same idea, our body is made dead upon baptism and we are made (created daily) with a right spirit, and a renewed body like the body of Jesus.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other:
So our old body must daily die, and the newness of Jesus spirit must daily live. Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Not the idea Dave has, we come to the Father with our own spirit that communes with the Spirit, ye are preaching multiply spirits, no we come to GOD via the Spirit of Jesus, one spirit, His spirit, which is recreated in the womb of the HS daily, as our right spirit is developed, it is actually a clone of Jesus spirit, reproduced in us.
Php 1:27 ¶ Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
In fact we come together in the Spirit of Jesus, we all have one mind of Jesus, though we live as a community, as candles of Jesus, together the light is from ONE.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
To me this implies we begin with Jesus as a seed in us, and we develop a spirit of GOD within us, that becomes our new character like Jesus, our spirit if you will, that the HS witnesses to our spirit, we have become children of GOD.
Not as Dave says, we are already a spirit from day 6 and once we gnosis and commune with GOD via God's spirit, does our spirit become worthy to become a child of GOD.
You have created the notion we live for eternity in the same spirit was had from day 6 of Creation, whereas I see we live only in the spirit Jesus gives us when we enter into the death of Jesus upon baptism. And this process is done daily by faith. It starts with faith, and is consecrated by baptism, and later becomes matured or quickened by the HS.
Shalom
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