satan vrs satanas

[Dave]

Textual Criticism
נשׁים (H802) –vrs- נָשִׁ֤ים (H5386)

What is different = spelling

(HOT) has no breathing marks
(WLC) breathing marks added – during the “diaspora”

(google) When were Hebrew vowels added?
Vowel and cantillation marks were added to the older consonantal layer of the Bible between 600 CE and the beginning of the 10th century. The scholars who preserved the pronunciation of the Bibles were known as the Masoretes.

We know that the oldest Masoretic text = about 1000 AD (WLC) or Alepo
Theses Text = the Jewish Tanak of today

(HOT) has no breathing marks and says woman Zec 5:7 and Zec 5:9

Zec 5:7 (LXX) καὶ ἰδοὺ τάλαντον μολίβου ἐξαιρόμενον, καὶ ἰδοὺ μία γυνὴ (G1135) ἐκάθητο ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ μέτρου.

G1135 – γυνή - Probably from the base of G1096; a woman;

Zec 5:9 καὶ ἦρα τοὺς ὀφθαλμούς μου καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδοὺ δύο γυναῖκες (G1135) ἐκπορευόμεναι, καὶ πνεῦμα ἐν ταῖς πτέρυξιν αὐτῶν, καὶ αὗται εἶχον πτέρυγας ὡς πτέρυγας ἔποπος· καὶ ἀνέλαβον τὸ μέτρον ἀνὰ μέσον τῆς γῆς καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ οὐρανοῦ.

(LXX) says woman Zec 5:7 and Zec 5:9
(HOT) says woman Zec 5:7 and Zec 5:9
(WLC) says Fire Zec 5:7 only

More evidence that the Roman Received Text = the Greek (LXX) NOT the Hebrew Masoretic Bible

Why is pronunciation important? - DUH

youtu.be/5Apz7nsR2YI
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[Deleted]

Rp" So your entire religion is based on no Biblical data, where is your proof the serpent did know?
D" 1- Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
2- precept upon precept, line upon line – the serpent was proven correct
R" is that all your proof? One verse? The verse says nothing about how much your satanas-serpent-archon knows.

This was just a RA creature created like the cow and the ant, how much do these animals know of salvation? nothing. so why would God tell your satanas-serpent-archon-sinless creatures (created with RA, designed to test man in some grand context so man can use his free will to choose GOD, the only created creature with free will), all about the intimate aspects of God's doing to man, His missing, His sinning and His soutions to this sinning?

D"According to you – man is equal to God, in intelligence. Except it cannot create

R" Are you OK? Why do you make your logic apply to my logic? Why do you misrepresent me?

You have said, that the satanas-serpent-archon knows all things of God, and so speaks to man about salvation solutions even though man sins, it is no big deal.

If man sins Dave and God has a solution to the sin problem, why on earth would God have to die for the sin?

After all the satanas-serpent-archon is sinless according to you, the RA they do is not considered sin to you, and so the free will in man is tested, so why does GOD have to die is man sins?

You never did answer this question, your website sentences on the question disappoint.

D"Pr 15:3 ¶ The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
What happened to your Umbra Shadow ?
R" your brevity astounds me Dave? The verse says God knows all the things, including RA umbra shadows.

How is a umbra shadow made Dave? It uses light, you and GOD, so what are you talking about? Can't you talk and write?


D"Scripture is written for man to man – you just anthropomorphize the heavens
R" How is this answering my questions Dave? Your brevity is astounding.

"anthropomorphize" is just a big scholar word meaning "simile"

Of course the Bible uses "similes" to man can understand the "similes of heaven" . Are you dull?

A "simile" does NOT mean "exactly the same as".

RP"Not known to Adam, therefore not known to the serpent either...
D" You are incorrect – the Promise of the word that made you will come again in the flesh ad shed blood for the salvation of all Adams children
100% Jewish literature before Jesus Christ
R" OH so Jesus told Adam is OK to sin, because I love you enough to die for you and save you from sin. Is that what GOD told Adam?

Why did GOD command Adam and Eve NOT to eat the fruit? and have a satanas-serpent-archon placed near the tree for testing man to choose?

QUestion: Why does LOVE require testing?

QUestion: WHy must free will be tested in order to prove worthy of sinless status?

Question: If there is no mischief in the testing of free will, why does God curse the ground, curse the serpent and curse the humans for their choosing of free will?

Question: Does sinning require mischief or a mischief maker?

Please answer my questions carefully and with detailed discussion.

D"100% Jewish literature before Jesus Christ

Jews cannot know this, as only Adam existed before Jews.

Jews write after Adam sinned, not before Adam sinned. Duh

D"You are incorrect – the Promise of the word that made you will come again in the flesh ad shed blood for the salvation of all Adams children


You are wrong Dave, God would not speak about the solution to disobedience before the children disobey.

"Don't touch the stove, it's hot and I will spank you if you touch the stove, you will cry but do not worry about your tears and pain, for I love you and will help you even if you dosobey me"

Parents do not speak like this Dave to their children.

Dave may write "you just anthropomorphize the heavens"
Dave I am writing a "simile" so man can understand maybe what God's thinking is like. Its a "simile".

How can you explain things to children who do not understand what "hot" is, what "tears are" and what "pain is" or what "love is" of "what solutions you pose" . Come on Dave, our minds are always limited. We will spend eternity learning about this sin problem and its affects.

D"It was spelled out to the letter in Jewish literature before Jesus Christ
R" OK let's test your idea, show me any Jewish old writing that define "amanuah" correctly?

D"Scripture is written for man to man – you just anthropomorphize the heavens
R" You are wrong.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Why did the sons of God shout for joy during earth's Creation? Who are these Beings and what pray tell are they doing/mentioned in man's Scriptures?

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


Here is a profound passage you ignore. Who are these cherubs that sin, and who are these kings that behold their sinning?

Certainly not humans, because humans never existed when these cherubims sinned, because they sinned long before the Garden of Eden existed, the passage tells you this. But you ignore this Scripture passage?

So scripture was not JUST written for man only. Other beings such as cherubims are also mentioned.

D"You absolutely deny this scripture – how can God be a man? And God at the same time?
It is a huge stumbling block for you – John 1:1 must be error according to you
R" Is that all you write? Explain you view than?

How can the Father come in the flesh and die in the flesh, and prayer to Himself, your logic is irrational. How can a Father pray to a Father?

When I ask you about how can the Father love the Father? This is not love. Not even close. So the Father loved the world that the Father sent the Father to save sinners, that who so ever has faith in the Father will be saved.

Is this love? No even close. Nothing relational here, only One being. And you the sinner.

You cannot have relational love, if there is only ONE BEING of love.

Therefore you have no true love. All you have is selfish love, and this kind of love doesn't exist in a sinless world.

God added humanity to His divinity. how is this denying God? It's NOT. Stop misrepresenting me.

D"Isaiah 14 is 100% all about a man – the King Nebuchadnezzar
R" OH so you abandon Scripture Similes? There are no similes in Scripture Dave?

When and Where Was the Book of Isaiah Written? The Introduction to Isaiah, Old Testament Study Guide for Home-Study Seminary Students (2014) states: “The book of Isaiah was written sometime during the ministry of Isaiah (approximately 740–701 B.C.), during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, and Manasseh of the Southern Kingdom of Judah.


British Museum. Nebuchadnezzar I or Nebuchadrezzar I ( / ˌnɛbjʊkədˈnɛzər / ), r. c. 1125–1104 BC, was the fourth king of the Second Dynasty of Isin and Fourth Dynasty of Babylon. He ruled for 22 years according to the Babylonian King List C, and was the most prominent monarch of this dynasty.

You just goofed again Dave, you are out by several hundred years.

Dave add this quote by Adam Clark

" And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been, I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels,"

Why would you add a quote to show me the satanas-serpent-archon is a chief fallen angel? which goes against your view and your theories Dave?

RP" But you claim your serpent never sinned, so is as sinless as the angels.
D" Why do you keep repeating misinformation – when you know it is a lie
Jude and 2 Peter both speak about the bane elohiym of gen 6 that are held in chaind awaiting Rev 9 to be released upon the planet again for 5 months
R" we have a problem Dave.

You told me your satanas-serpent-archon never sinned when speaking to Eve?

I get it that some satanas-archons did bad RA and are chained in darkness awaiting judgement?

So if these satanas-archons did bad RA why are they being judge for their RA?

After all they have no free will so they do not need judgement?

And they cannot sin like man can who only has free will?

Your views make no sense, and your brevity is exhausting to me? Can't you talk?


D"Please quote me – instead of making up outrageous miss-statements that you know are lies
R" how can I quote you when you write brevity all the time, don't you have a well thought out well researched and well quoted view? Have you not thought of every angle in your view? Seems NOT.

For starters if satanas-archons did bad RA why are they being judged for their RA? and punished too?

Your theories make no sense.

My dog ate my faviourite chook and nearly killed a goose. DO I kill my dog because of it's RA? no

It's a dumb dog doing the RA it does. Have no free will to choose good, only programmed to do RA, so I do not kill my dog. Nor hold my dog in judgement. But Dave make silly statements that doggy archons who do RA are awaiting chains held in judgement? Come on Dave, start thinking your theories through properly.



D"Remember the FIRE / woman
R" your are switching topics. Sorry not going there. However interesting theory you show.

Now carefully consider long discussions to my questions here.

Shalom

[Dave]

Dave may write "you just anthropomorphize the heavens"
Dave I am writing a "simile" so man can understand maybe what God's thinking is like. Its a "simile"
Correct – you are playing a word game so it turns out your way

D"It was spelled out to the letter in Jewish literature before Jesus Christ
R" OK let's test your idea, show me any Jewish old writing that define "amanuah" correctly?
WHAT – the concept of the Light of the World that saves has always been a Jewish theology
Your attempt to change to topic has no bearing on this concept

D"Scripture is written for man to man – you just anthropomorphize the heavens
R" You are wrong.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Why did the sons of God shout for joy during earth's Creation? Who are these Beings and what pray tell are they doing/mentioned in man's Scriptures?

You have argued and argued that the Sons of God are men – not angels or archon - Sons of Seth
Now you have man in heaven before physical creation - or during physical creation

So now you must agree – man was created in heaven during creation – Day 1
What happened to man is just biologiacl procreation

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Man – mankind – Adam – Eve – every man – any man
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:

Eze 27:18 Damascus was thy merchant in the multitude of the wares of thy making, for the multitude of all riches; in the wine of Helbon, and white wool.
Eze 27:19 Dan also and Javan going to and fro occupied in thy fairs: bright iron, cassia, and calamus, were in thy market.
Eze 27:20 Dedan was thy merchant in precious clothes for chariots.
Eze 27:21 Arabia, and all the princes of Kedar, they occupied with thee in lambs, and rams, and goats: in these were they thy merchants.
Eze 27:22 The merchants of Sheba and Raamah, they were thy merchants: they occupied in thy fairs with chief of all spices, and with all precious stones, and gold.
Eze 27:23 Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad, were thy merchants.
Eze 27:24 These were thy merchants in all sorts of things, in blue clothes, and broidered work, and in chests of rich apparel, bound with cords, and made of cedar, among thy merchandise.
Eze 27:25 The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas.

If you place your passage back in context – you will see that the the multitude of thy merchandise – is all about the Kingdom of Tyre

therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee,
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden

O covering cherub,
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
YES – Adam was the guardian of the garden – why do you deny this

Here is a profound passage you ignore. Who are these cherubs that sin
Adam and Eve – the guardians of the garden

and who are these kings that behold their sinning?
Man – mankind - all history since

D"You absolutely deny this scripture – how can God be a man? And God at the same time?
It is a huge stumbling block for you – John 1:1 must be error according to you
R" Is that all you write? Explain you view than?

Why do you deny The Gospel of Gnostic John
Only one WORD / word = God / word = Holy Spirit / word = Christ
And through the Word all this were created

Gen 1 - God is the Creator

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Christ - For by him were all things created – Christ is the Creator
Christ - is the image of the invisible God

How can the Father come in the flesh
Man = biology / flesh (yester ra) + spirit/soul (yester tov)
Jesus = 100% biology / flesh (tester ra) Son of Man
Christ = the image of the invisible God

Jesus Christ = (100% biology / flesh Jesus) + (Christ – Holy Spirit - the image of the invisible God)

and die in the flesh,
Jesus – the Son of Man – biology / flesh died upon the cross – tomb / grave / corruption
Christ – the spirit returned to God / heavens – actually preached to others from the time of Noah

The cross – biology / flesh dies
The Resurrection – Life Lives – beyond this world

and prayer to Himself, your logic is irrational. How can a Father pray to a Father?
Neh 5:7 Then I consulted with myself,

I suppose you have never had a heart to heart with yourself

Neh 5:7 Then I consulted (H4427) with myself, (interesting choice of words)

H4427 – מָלַךְ - mâlak - A primitive root; to reign; inceptively to ascend the throne; causatively to induct into royalty; hence (by implication) to take counsel: - consult, X indeed, be (make, set a, set up) king, be (make) queen, (begin to, make to) reign (-ing), rule, X surely.

and prayer to Himself, your logic is irrational. How can a Father pray to a Father?
to reign; inceptively to ascend the throne; causatively to induct into royalty
hence (by implication) to take counsel
be (make, set a, set up) king, be (make) queen, (begin to, make to) reign (-ing), rule

Neh 5:7 Then I consulted (H4427) with myself, (interesting choice of words)

Neh 5:7 καὶ ἐβουλεύσατο καρδία μου ἐπ᾿ ἐμέ, καὶ ἐμαχεσάμην πρὸς τοὺς ἐντίμους καὶ τοὺς ἄρχοντας καὶ εἶπα αὐτοῖς Ἀπαιτήσει ἀνὴρ τὸν ἀδελφὸν αὐτοῦ ὑμεῖς ἀπαιτεῖτε. καὶ ἔδωκα ἐπ᾿ αὐτοὺς ἐκκλησίαν μεγάλην

ἐβουλεύσατο καρδία μου
G1011 - From G1012; to advise, that is, (reflexively) deliberate, or (by implication) resolve: - consult, take counsel, determine, be minded, purpose.
G2588 - Prolonged from a primary κάρ kar (Latin cor, “heart”); the heart, that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).
μου – of me

The Greek (LXX) says – he consulted with his heart – his inner self
Who is the inner man (yester tov) + (yester ra) / spirit + flesh

So the Father loved the world that the Father sent the Father to save sinners, that who so ever has faith in the Father will be saved.

So the Father (E – that no man can see or will surely die) loved the world that the Father sent the Father (Christ – the image of God the Father) to save sinners, that who so ever has faith in the Father (YHWY or Christ – all the same) will be saved.

Is this love? No even close. Nothing relational here, only One being. And you the sinner.
The relationship is God and creation
The relationship is God and man

You cannot have relational love, if there is only ONE BEING of love.
Correct – and you cannot have a relational love with a robot
God loves man enough to let him go – so that Free Will can bring him home again as the Prodigal Son

Therefore you have no true love.
God’s love is unrequited – cannot get any truer than that

All you have is selfish love, and this kind of love doesn't exist in a sinless world.
Correct (yester ra) is just love of world
God loves man enough to let him go – so that Free Will can bring him home again as the Prodigal Son

D"Isaiah 14 is 100% all about a man – the King Nebuchadnezzar
R" OH so you abandon Scripture Similes? There are no similes in Scripture Dave?
Sure there are – this passage – as is Ezk 28 – is all about man and how man thinks he can do it by himself

When and Where Was the Book of Isaiah Written? … “The book of Isaiah was written sometime during the ministry of Isaiah (approximately 740–701 B.C

British Museum. Nebuchadnezzar I or Nebuchadrezzar I ( / ˌnɛbjʊkədˈnɛzər / ), r. c. 1125–1104 BC, was the fourth king of the Second Dynasty of Isin and Fourth Dynasty of Babylon. He ruled for 22 years according to the Babylonian King List C, and was the most prominent monarch of this dynasty.

You just goofed again Dave, you are out by several hundred years.
Robert – your education and understanding is showing
1125-1104 BC comes 400 years before 740-701 BC
Nebuchadnezzar comes before Isiah – why can’t Isiah write about him?

Dave add this quote by Adam Clark
" And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been, I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels,"

Why would you add a quote to show me the satanas-serpent-archon is a chief fallen angel? which goes against your view and your theories Dave?
And he said
" And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been, I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels,"

He does not know why you make your doctrinal claims – it is error to him

RP" But you claim your serpent never sinned, so is as sinless as the angels.
D" Why do you keep repeating misinformation – when you know it is a lie
Jude and 2 Peter both speak about the bane elohiym of gen 6 that are held in chaind awaiting Rev 9 to be released upon the planet again for 5 months
R" we have a problem Dave.

You told me your satanas-serpent-archon never sinned when speaking to Eve?
What does that have to do with Gen 6? - NOTHING

I get it that some satanas-archons did bad RA and are chained in darkness awaiting judgement?
So if these satanas-archons did bad RA why are they being judge for their RA?
Because as they took on flesh – they became able to sin in the flesh
Their sin = reproduce after your own kind

After all they have no free will so they do not need judgement?
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad.
Because as they took on flesh – they became able to sin in the flesh
Their sin = reproduce after your own kind

D"Please quote me – instead of making up outrageous miss-statements that you know are lies
R" how can I quote you when you write brevity all the time, don't you have a well thought out well researched and well quoted view? Have you not thought of every angle in your view? Seems NOT.
If you have not been expose to my view or my documented writing – then you are blind

For starters if satanas-archons did bad RA why are they being judged for their RA? and punished too?
1- 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, so that each one may receive what is due for the things he did while in the body—whether good or bad.
Because as they took on flesh – they became able to sin in the flesh
Their sin = reproduce after your own kind

2- Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they shall be tortured day and night forever and ever.

Do not forget the judgment of false prophets

My dog ate my faviourite chook and nearly killed a goose. DO I kill my dog because of it's RA? No
You keep saying your dog loves you – why did he turn against you?
Is your dog evil – is your dog possessed by satan – or is he just a dog with (yester ra)

It's a dumb dog doing the RA it does. – YES IT IS

Have no free will to choose good, only programmed to do RA, so I do not kill my dog.
Slander away - Have no free will to choose good – who says this – only you do
The choice is NOT do good or do evil – the choice is to choose God not world

Nor hold my dog in judgement. But Dave make silly statements that doggy archons who do RA are awaiting chains held in judgement? Come on Dave, start thinking your theories through properly.
Why do you deny scripture
Jude and 2 peter both say that he sinning angels are held in chains
Rev 9 tells us that the pit is opened and demons are released
Enoch tells us they are the same group – same bunch -

D"Remember the FIRE / woman
R" your are switching topics. Sorry not going there. However interesting theory you show.
Textual Criticism – is the Bible perfect word for word – phrase upon phrase – passage upon passage –NO
Any doctrine that stands on only two words taken out of context and fails to be supported by the bulk of scripture is a man-made false teaching

[Deleted]

RP" Dave I am writing a "simile" so man can understand maybe what God's thinking is like. Its a "simile"
D" Correct – you are playing a word game so it turns out your way
R" Not really, all people have fun reading poetry similes.

I wrote this poem at age 16, what does the simile mean?

"Love is a river,
A dam fed you some,
Clear was it water,
Traditionally done.

There are many similes in this poem, that goes for dozens of lines, I post a few.

Why is a river a simile of love? Are there any pictures we humans can think of as parallels?

What or who is the dam a simile of?

What is the water in the river a simile of ?

Poetry fun is not word games Dave, it is the way we have fun reading and learning God's words.

Try to answer my questions of the above poem. Nobody is right or wrong. All can read poetry similes as one likes.

But in the case of Bible similes, we have the HS as our tutor, and Jesus as our Rabbi. Both teach us.

D"WHAT – the concept of the Light of the World that saves has always been a Jewish theology
Your attempt to change to topic has no bearing on this concept
R" Hmm? I quote today from Rabbi Zion who was treated as a dead man for his faith in Jesus by the Jews.

"I am poor and feeble, persecuted and vulnerable, Yeshua conquered me, and with the New Man He honored me. He delivered me from the poverty-stricken self with His great love; He cherishes me.

"Every day the canny satan aspires to grab my faith, I hold on to my Encourager, and chase the satan away. I stand here alone in my faith; the whole world is against me. I give up all the earthly honor for the sake of the Messiah my mate."

Rabbi Zion speaks of "the faith", was this known in the OT in the days of old, is my question to you?

D"Now you have man in heaven before physical creation - or during physical creation
So now you must agree – man was created in heaven during creation – Day 1
R" You post evidence you do not read my older posts, I wrote before the "sons of god" are created sinless creatures from other worlds, who worship God on their own planets.

NOT human being like creatures created as spirits on day 1, before they entered a biological body on day 6, , is your view, and invented using ideas not found in the Scriptures.

D"Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Man – mankind – Adam – Eve – every man – any man
R" You accuse me of 6th grade reading, what about you?

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

"thou is unknown so far, could be serpent or man"

every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

"the thou is detailed as having all this array, certainly not Adam, but this "Serpent being" also in Eden.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:

Here the "thou" is detailed here as a cherub, a different creature kind to the human kind.

Is the cherub a "creature kind" or a "function of action" as you claim, a guardian?

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,

Functional actions are not created, so the "chreub kind" is a created being.

So how does Dave identify the "thou" as talking about "man" and not the "cherub" is something wrong with your reading skills?

D"If you place your passage back in context – you will see that the the multitude of thy merchandise – is all about the Kingdom of Tyre
R" Yes correct, the poetry simile is about man, yes, but poetry also has similes that make points later in the passage.

"Love is a river,
A dam fed you some,
Clear was it water,
Traditionally done.

If I go back into the poetry

"O' rolling river,
O' rolling life,
T'is a story of a young wife,
Who was born from a large family,
With love and much harmony,
Love is a river,
And to this young wife,
It flows feverishly through her life."

The story is indeed about humans too, but later into the poem, there is a simile of the river as love.

God decided to make the story of man, into a simile of the story of the angel who also sinned.

Is there anything wrong with similes in poetry doing this? Can't you understand poetry similes?

And a simile is nothing of the thing is describes. It's a different story.

A river is not love. Both are different stories. But a river can be a simile of love, Now the two have parallel stories, that run together.

Can't you understand the similes of poetry?

D"YES – Adam was the guardian of the garden – why do you deny this
R" Obviously not.

The only question you have to answer Dave, is when is a function a function and a created creature a kind of creature?

If you wander through the OT you find one reference to ruwach created.

Ps 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Here when humans as a kind come to be from death, the spirit is created, when the spirit leaves the human, the human dies.

Isa 42:5 ¶ Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: (KJV)

This verse is important because it uses the term created, but also the term nashamah for breath and ruwach for the walking human.

You have to discern when is a function a function and when is it a created kind.

Who are angels? There is a term called malak, which is never a creature kind, because malak is never created. Hence malak is a function, it means to carry a message from the messenger.

Cherub is different because a cherub is created. So a cherub is not a function but a created creature, called angels.

Ge 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Sure some cherub was given the task to guard (shamar)

Nu 7:89 And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle ..., from between the two cherubims: and he spake unto him(GOD).

Sure some cherub stand/look near GOD when Man comes to talk/commune with GOD

2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

God rides with cherub upon the coverings of the HS for transport.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: ...15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,

One of the cherubs was anointed holy before God, stood next to God, was perfect from the day the cherub was created.

Now man cannot fit as a holy standing creature nearest GOD where GOD dwells between the creatures? Nor does GOD ride upon man with his wings of the HS.... your twisting makes no sense....

D"Only one WORD / word = God / word = Holy Spirit / word = Christ
R" sure one WORD. but TWO beings. Have you never noticed the torah about this?

Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Who is the Father? Who is the Ruwach? Who is the SON?

Every IMRAH of ELOAH is pure, He is a shield to them that put their trust in HIM.

Who is the "He" and "Him" ? Eloah or IMRAH? or both?

Jesus who is imrah is the Father's words personified in a separate divine Being, who is the Father's one and only Son, who while both are divine, both are one as elohiym power.

D"Christ - For by him were all things created – Christ is the Creator
Christ - is the image of the invisible God
R" You write goofy words again.

How can an image be the exact same as the Person?

For by the Father all things were created, the Father in expression of a Son on earth called Jesus, for Jesus is the image of the Father.... "you imply a GOOF" am image is NOT the same as the real thing. It's a simile look alike in function and form, but never the same thing as the thing it represents.

Jesus is divine yes, Father is divine yes, but both are members of divinity in a family elohiym.

One is the image of the other. In character and power, but NOT exactly the same as, otherwise the word "image" is used incorrectly.

Humans are created in the image of elohiym, but humans are not exactly the same as elohiym.

RP" How can a Father pray to a Father?
D" Neh 5:7 Then I consulted with myself,

Ne 5:7 Then I consulted <malak> with myself <leb>,

R" I see here "malak" to reign or rule, and "leb" heart or emotions.
So I suspect it is saying I allowed my emotions of my heart to rule, and I said to the rebels....

It is a saying, to consult within your emotions
or consult within the HS

Man has relationships all around him to consult.

But you have only ONE dvine BEING, the SON and the HS are expressions of the Father.

So you have no divine relationships to consult with except yourself.

Are you saying the Father consulted with his own heart? Is not the same thing as one expression praying to another expression, as two separate forms of the one being? I have not heard of the heart outside of the body, but perhaps you are OK with the Father having three separated forms of Himself.

But again your brevity astounds me, are you afraid to discuss your views for fear your views will not stand scrutiny? Seems that way?

D"The Greek (LXX) says – he consulted with his heart
R" Yes I like that.

RP"Is this love? No even close. Nothing relational here, only One being. And you the sinner.
D" The relationship is God and creation
R" But again your brevity astounds me, how is loving my dog show I am loving and loveable? I know personally of a man who loves 25 dogs but never loved his wife. ( a true story) You goof again Dave. Loving something else is not demonstrating you are loveable or loving.

It says the Father so loved the humans the Father sent his one and only SON.... That is like I have my two virgin daughters and come to invite two men into my home as welcome guests, but the gay bang on my door for flesh, so I offer my two daughters instead for prey rather than the two guests for their wanton needs. God sent his only son, not himself. Love is relational, not about self.

All those trillions of years the Father spoke and walked and talked with His Son, not sending Himself as a different expression of himself. Love is a relational word, nothing to do with SELF.

Rp" You cannot have relational love, if there is only ONE BEING of love.
D" Correct – and you cannot have a relational love with a robot
R" so why do you insist the cherubs in heaven are robots, not having free will to love God back?

D"God’s love is unrequited – cannot get any truer than that
R" your brevity astounds me, and you love to use big scholarly words, with no discusssion.

biblicalproof.wordpress.com/2018/07/30/unrequited-love/

In Hosea 1:1-3; 3:1-5 contains one of the most most difficult commands God ever gave to a man. It was given to Hosea, one of prophets to the ten tribes of Israel. He was commanded to take as his wife one of the women of the land who was known to be unchaste and immoral. Accordingly, he selected a woman whose name was Gomer whose character was such that she would likely prove unfaithful. Gomer did not love God and took her pleasure wherever she could find it. From this union were born three children. However, her heart had become contaminated with the immoral lifestyle which was poisoning the social life of the entire nation. In all probability, Hosea’s quite religious home, his simple occupations, and his devout Sabbath-keeping grew distasteful to her. She felt her life was intolerably dull. After the birth of her third child she was directly tempted, committed adultery, left Hosea and returned to her old way of life. Every indication is that Hosea loved this woman and loved the three children she bore him. Hosea’s love for his wife had been very deep and tender, and he felt he loved her still, even after she had forsaken him. There is little doubt he missed her greatly and his home was never the same. He did not divorce her but she eventually left of her own free will.

This story does reminds us of one of the great tragedies of human life, the tragedy of unrequited love, the misfortune of unreturned love. Hose loved his wife, but he was not loved in return. It is heartbreaking to love someone and not to be loved in return.

In the process of time, things went from bad to worse for Gomer. She eventually had become the slave of one of her lovers. About this time God gave Hosea another commandment almost as difficult as the one to marry Gomer. God said to Hosea, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by a lover and is committing adultery, just like the love of the Lord for the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love the raisin cakes of the pagans.” I think Hosea knew exactly who this adulterous woman was he was commanded to love again. It was his wife who had left him for another man.


The scroll is called the scroll of Yashuah, the book of salvation saving humans who do not love Yashua back.

But Yashuah loves us anyhow, and pays the price for redeeming love, but we must respond.

If we choose not to respond, the love is not a circuit, not completed and our fate of marriage ends. So God finally divorces us.

So sure the Father is a provider, but if humans do not respond, there is no completed love. There is nothing.


D" God loves man enough to let him go – so that Free Will can bring him home again as the Prodigal Son
R" yes

D"1125-1104 BC comes 400 years before 740-701 BC
Nebuchadnezzar comes before Isiah – why can’t Isiah write about him?
R" Sure Isiah can write about something looking back, but is that what the text is doing? looking back in time?

Again its a poetry simile. Can't similes refer to further back in time than just Nebuchadnezzar ?


D"Because as they took on flesh – they became able to sin in the flesh
R" THis implies than the archons have free will to choose to sin, their sin is no longer robotic? DO you agree?

D"Because as they took on flesh – they became able to sin in the flesh
Their sin = reproduce after your own kind
R" THis implies than the archons have free will to choose to sin, their sin is no longer robotic? DO you agree?

D"The choice is NOT do good or do evil – the choice is to choose God not world
R" I am sure my dog knows God, but cannot choose to be saved by God, only humans can,

"the choice is to choose God not world" OK


D"Textual Criticism – is the Bible perfect word for word – phrase upon phrase – passage upon passage –NO
Any doctrine that stands on only two words taken out of context and fails to be supported by the bulk of scripture is a man-made false teaching
R" I see. The bulk of scripture says the word "satan" as both verb and noun forms must mean to "oppose/opposer" and this meaning fits every verse.

But for Dave, some of those sentence make "satan-noun" into some other functional meaning?

So your claim is the word "satan-noun" is an prosecutor function who by defintion opposes man?

OK, so why in discussion does the prosecutor function oppose GOD and negate his claim on Job as fully perfect?

Can't a prosecutor function oppose the judges opinion of a person on trial? Yes

But that makes the opposer of the judge no longer on the judge's side, he is also opposing the judges verdict on the human as well.

A prosecutor function is only friendly outside the court room to a judge, never friendly inside the court room as a prosecutor function of the court. So my view still stands, the opposer is opposing God's verdict about Job.

Your claim is the cherub chata idea is flawed by the bulk of scripture, where is the verses of cherubs? Hardly any/ About 26 verses or so. None speak of cherubs that sinned.

A war in heaven could imply cherubs sinning, but you ignore the association.

A cherub trying to get Eve to sin is sinning Himself, but you ignore this idea.

A cherub/devil trying to get jesus to worship him is also a sin isn't it?

A cherub defined by Jesus as a father of lies, is a sinning cherub, is it not?

A cherub thrown in the lake of fire, must have sinned, must it not?

Just how much of the bulk of Scripture must you deny Dave?

Shalom

[Dave]

RP" Dave I am writing a "simile" so man can understand maybe what God's thinking is like. Its a "simile"
D" Correct – you are playing a word game so it turns out your way
But in the case of Bible similes, we have the HS as our tutor, and Jesus as our Rabbi. Both teach us.
Then why doesn’t SDA theology look like the 5000 years of Judeo-Christian theology
Then why doesn’t SDA doctrine look like the 5000 years of Judeo-Christian theology

Instead of following the 5000 years of mainstream Judeo-Christian theology as given by the word of God – you have a different prophet – and you filter all scripture threw that prophet’s writing

D"WHAT – the concept of the Light of the World that saves has always been a Jewish theology
Rabbi Zion speaks of "the faith", was this known in the OT in the days of old, is my question to you?

YOUR ANTI-SEMRTIC views are well documented here
No Jew ever understood his personal relationship with YWHY
Although the entire word of God comes to us by these same Jews – through these same Jews – they didn’t know their God or their own theology
These same Jews walked and talked with God in the wilderness – I visions – in face to face interaction – threw dreams – spiritual revelations

Rabbi Zion speaks of "the faith", was this known in the OT in the days of old
Your anti-sematic views are well documented here

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

According to you – Jesus is wrong – Jesus spoke in error
You have changed the entire ahl/OT to fit your doctrine – to fit Rome’s doctrine
Was faith understood by the Jews? – YOU COULD NOT BE MORE INSULTING OR DISRESPECTFUL

Rabbi Zion speaks of "the faith", was this known in the OT in the days of old, is my question to you?
YES – deeper and more meaningful that you say is possible – infilling of the Spirit – spirit to Spirit relationship – Born again Christians – Baptized by the Holy Spirit

Exo 31:1 Then Adonai spoke to Moses saying,
Exo 31:2 “See, I have called by name Bezalel son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah,
Exo 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, understanding and knowledge in all kinds of craftsmanship,

2Ki 6:13 So he said, “Go, see where he is, so I may send and seize him.” Then it was reported to him, “Behold, he is in Dothan.”
2Ki 6:14 So he sent horses, chariots and a great army there. They arrived at night and surrounded the city.
2Ki 6:15 Now when the attendant of the man of God had risen early and gone out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was surrounding the city. So his attendant said to him, “Alas, my master! What are we going to do?”
2Ki 6:16 “Fear not,” he replied, “for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”
2Ki 6:17 Then Elisha prayed and said, “Adonai, please open his eyes that he may see.” Then Adonai opened the eyes of the young man and he saw, and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
2Ki 6:18 When they came down to him, Elisha prayed to Adonai and said, “Please strike this people with blinding light.” So He struck them with blinding light according to the word of Elisha.
2Ki 6:19 Then Elisha said to them, “This is not the road, nor is this the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man whom you seek.” So he led them to Samaria.
2Ki 6:20 Upon their arrival in Samaria, Elisha said, “Adonai, open the eyes of these men, that they may see.” So Adonai opened their eyes, and they could see—behold, they were in the middle of Samaria.
2Ki 6:21 When the king of Israel saw them, he said to Elisha, “Shall I surely strike them down, Avi?”
2Ki 6:22 “Don’t strike them down,” he replied. “Would you strike down those whom you have captured with your own sword and bow? Set before them bread and water that they may eat and drink and go back to their master.”
2Ki 6:23 So he prepared a great feast for them. After they had eaten and drunk, he sent them away, and they went back to their master. Ever since, the marauding bands of Aram stopped invading the land of Israel.

Please explain to me why you doubt Elisha had faith?
Please explain to me why you deny this scripture – I have asked you – is this a true story?
Is this too hard for you to imagine –

What was Elisha to the king of Aram
Elisha the wizard?
Elisha the magician?
I have asked you – is this a true story?

Was faith understood by the Jews? – YOU COULD NOT BE MORE INSULTING OR DISRESPECTFUL
--------------------

D"Scripture is written for man to man – you just anthropomorphize the heavens
R" You are wrong.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Why did the sons of God shout for joy during earth's Creation? Who are these Beings and what pray tell are they doing/mentioned in man's Scriptures?

You have argued and argued that the Sons of God are men – not angels or archon - Sons of Seth
Now you have man in heaven before physical creation - or during physical creation

D"Now you have man in heaven before physical creation - or during physical creation
So now you must agree – man was created in heaven during creation – Day 1

R" You post evidence you do not read my older posts, I wrote before the "sons of god" are created sinless creatures from other worlds, who worship God on their own planets.

WHAT – where did this come from?
The bane elohiym of Gen 6 are actually aliens from another planet?
So – to you – the ‘other gods’ of the Levant are the Annauki from the planet Nebiru

Then the Nephilim are not ½ angelic being + ½ mortal – they are just alien hybribs

OK – so in the SDA teaching
Angles are created during creation week – Day 1
The archon are created during creation week – Day 1
Aliens from other planets are created during creation week – Day 1
But – man is just procreated biology?

R" You post evidence you do not read my older posts, I wrote before the "sons of god" are created sinless creatures from other worlds, who worship God on their own planets.
NOT human being like creatures created as spirits on day 1, before they entered a biological body on day 6, , is your view,
WHO says this? – Mr. honest Christian.

The beast of revelation appeared fully formed – the dragon – the serpent race – that we call devils and satanas

before they entered a biological body on day 6,
WHO says this? – Mr. honest Christian.
Gen 6 says ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING ABOUT POSSESSION

King Solomon tells us – these are biological creatures
The serpent in the garden – was a biological creature
Enoch tells us they were too ugly – gross – for human women to accept them
Enoch tell us they had to change their form – to be more acceptable to human women
Gnostic John tells us the y had to change their form - to be more acceptable to human women

Changing form – is shape shifting – not possession
And shape shifting isn’t even shape shifting – it is a hypnotic suggestion planted in your head

The hypnotist tells you the onion is an apple – the onion did not change – your brain just sees it differently

Scripture tells us that they became the Sons of Anak – the seven tribes of the Amorite

D"Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Man – mankind – Adam – Eve – every man – any man
R" You accuse me of 6th grade reading, what about you?

So you say – Adam was imperfect before he sinned – is this your claim?
Most Jews and Christians see Adam as sinless before he sinned

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;
"thou is unknown so far, could be serpent or man"

every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

"the thou is detailed as having all this array, certainly not Adam, but this "Serpent being" also in Eden.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship—created in Messiah Yeshua for good deeds, which God prepared beforehand so we might walk in them.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Dan 12:3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavenly expanse. And those who turn many to righteousness will be like the stars forever and ever.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

Pro 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
Pro 3:14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
Pro 3:15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.

Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
Pro 8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Pro 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Pro 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

all this array, certainly not Adam, but this "Serpent being"
Why do you think more of your satan god than you do of man
Aliens on other worlds were also created during creation week – day 1 – not man
Aliens on other worlds were also created during creation week – day 1 – before man
The bane elohiym of Gen 6 are Aliens on other worlds

Is your satan god also an alien? What planet was he born on?
The Mormons say – Jehovah is an alien that lives on a planet in the constellation of Pleiades
Joseph Smith – Ellen White – Miller – all from the same time in history - all the same message

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
Is the cherub a "creature kind" or a "function of action" as you claim, a guardian?

Both – if your parents die – you end up with a different guardian – to cover and protect you
The King of Tyre – is the guardian that covers his kingdom and people with protection
Adam was told to tend and keep the garden - the covering guardian that protects
Two cherubs were made atop the Ark - the covering guardians that protect
Cherubs were painted in the temple walls - the covering guardian that protects

Cherubs were place at the entrance of the Garden to keep Adam out - the covering guardian that protects

The angels near to God’s throne are - the covering guardian that protects

Here the "thou" is detailed here as a cherub, a different creature kind to the human kind.
All it says is covering cherub – that is all scripture says – you fill in the rest with attitude

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
Functional actions are not created, so the "chreub kind" is a created being.
DUH - Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Beast of Revelation was never God’s friend – never cherished as perfect
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

So how does Dave identify the "thou" as talking about "man" and not the "cherub" is something wrong with your reading skills?
You read angel into the script
I just see Adam – who was perfect before he sinned – who was cherish by God

D"If you place your passage back in context – you will see that the the multitude of thy merchandise – is all about the Kingdom of Tyre
R" Yes correct, the poetry simile is about man, yes,
YES CORRECT the passage is all about the King of Tyre
the poetry simile is about man – man – mankind – every man – any man humanity - agreed

If you wander through the OT you find one reference to ruwach created.
Ps 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

What about
Job 26:13 By His Ruach the heavens are clear; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
Who formed the serpent – the hand of God did

Job 33:4 The Ruach of God has made me; the breath of Shaddai gives me life.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Who created man? – the Spirt did

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Gen 1:1 God is the Creator
Col 1:12-20 Christ is the Creator
Psa 104:29 / Job 23:13 / Job 33:4 the Spirit is the Creator

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being.

There is only one WORD – Word = God / Word = Christ = Word = Spirit
It is called a Trinity – There is only One True God
No man can see the father and live
But man can experience the Glory of God – Spirit
Or man can experience the image of God - Christ

Who are angels? There is a term called malak, which is never a creature kind, because malak is never created. Hence malak is a function, it means to carry a message from the messenger.
Cherub is different because a cherub is created. So a cherub is not a function but a created creature, called angels.
SCRIPTURE PLEASE
The only creation story I can find about cherubs are the bronze ones made for the Ark

Why do you deny that the angels and man are the host of heaven?

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (H7307 - rûach) of his mouth.
The Host of heaven created by the Holy Spirit

www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7907-host-of-heaven
HOST OF HEAVEN
Term occurring several times in the Bible, but not always with a definite meaning. The word "ẓaba" usually designates an army, and thus connotes a vast body of organized and officered men; it conveys, however, also the meaning of a numerous throng actually engaged in warfare. The singular "ẓaba" has a different meaning from the plural as used in the expression "Yhwh of hosts," a frequent though comparatively late name for the God of Israel. In this expression it is most likely that the reference is to the armies of Israel, at whose head Yhwh is marching to battle.

The word "ẓaba" usually designates an army,
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

The word "ẓaba" usually designates an army, - ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS
2Ti 2:3 Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Messiah Yeshua.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

The host of heaven include both sides – Right hand and Left
2Ch 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

The word "ẓaba" usually designates an army, - FIRST FRUITS
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
The HOST of heaven were created on Day 1

Angels, man, (and you include aliens on other planets better than man) were all created on Day 1

The Beast of Revelation – appeared on Day 1
Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep,

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The HOST of heaven – angels, man, (your aliens- evidently) and the archon were all created Day 1

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: ...15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
This was man – NOT THE BEAST

Now man cannot fit as a holy standing creature nearest GOD where GOD dwells between the creatures?
WHY NOT – man is a full part of the HOST of heaven – all created Day 1
Why do you say Adam was not perfect before he sinned?

D"Christ - For by him were all things created – Christ is the Creator
Christ - is the image of the invisible God
R" You write goofy words again.

I quote scripture – Paul – Colossians chapter 1 + John 1:1-4

But you have only ONE dvine BEING, the SON and the HS are expressions of the Father.
So you have no divine relationships to consult with except yourself.
GEE – why can’t man have a relationship with God?

Rp" You cannot have relational love, if there is only ONE BEING of love.
D" Correct – and you cannot have a relational love with a robot
R" so why do you insist the cherubs in heaven are robots, not having free will to love God back?
Angels were created to serve and praise
I absolutely reject evolution – no creature ever evolved into a different function
Cows are always cows
Ants are always ants
Angels are always angels
I absolutely reject evolution – no creature ever evolved into a different function
No creature ever changed its role within creation against God’s Will and then altered all of God’s Plan

Gen 1:1 God / Christ / The WORD / the HS created
Gen 1:2 choshek APPEARED – the BEAST appeared

D"God’s love is unrequited – cannot get any truer than that
R" your brevity astounds me, and you love to use big scholarly words, with no discusssion.

Your god is small and selfish – if you claim that your god cannot love his creation unless it love him back
Judeo-Christians – have a God of GRACE

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Messiah died for us.

Even tho we do not love God back and choose to sin – HE LOVES US
GOD’s LOVE = GRACE = an UREQUITED LOVE

biblicalproof.wordpress.com/2018/07/30/unrequited-love/

In Hosea 1:1-3; 3:1-5
This story does reminds us of one of the great tragedies of human life, the tragedy of unrequited love, the misfortune of unreturned love. Hose loved his wife, but he was not loved in return. It is heartbreaking to love someone and not to be loved in return.

YES – heartbreaking
God created all the heavens and Earth so that Eve could be alone in the Garden
Did she appreciate it? Did she love God back enough to obey one commandment? – NO
Did this stop God from loving man? – NO – because God’s love is unrequited – GRACE

It was his wife who had left him for another man.
Eve left God for a piece of worldly fruit

The scroll is called the scroll of Yashuah, the book of salvation saving humans who do not love Yashua back.
Grace – unrequited love

But Yashuah loves us anyhow, and pays the price for redeeming love, but we must respond.
Grace – unrequited love

If we choose not to respond, the love is not a circuit, not completed and our fate of marriage ends. So God finally divorces us.
Not finally – but immediately – upon the very FIRST chata – only take one sin to be a filthy sinner EVE

D" God loves man enough to let him go – so that Free Will can bring him home again as the Prodigal Son
R" yes
Finally you agree
And nothing you have said here requires a god of evil named satan
Eve listened to a created being (WORLD) and then lusted after WORLD and chose WORLD over obedience

D"Because as they took on flesh – they became able to sin in the flesh
R" THis implies than the archons have free will to choose to sin, their sin is no longer robotic? DO you agree?
This implies than the archons have (yester ra) because they are created with some matter
And when they took on more matter – they were able to (yester ra) in the body

D"Because as they took on flesh – they became able to sin in the flesh
Their sin = reproduce after your own kind
R" THis implies than the archons have free will to choose to sin, their sin is no longer robotic? DO you agree?
This implies than the archons have (yester ra) – and when they took on the body – they were able to (yester ra) in the body

Self-centered selfishness = self – whether you are in a body or not

D"Textual Criticism – is the Bible perfect word for word – phrase upon phrase – passage upon passage –NO
Any doctrine that stands on only two words taken out of context and fails to be supported by the bulk of scripture is a man-made false teaching
R" I see. The bulk of scripture says the word "satan" as both verb and noun forms must mean to "oppose/opposer" and this meaning fits every verse.
Yes – and as we looked at each and every 23 + 49 verses – satan opposes man NOT God
Yes – and as we looked at each and every 23 + 49 verses – satan is either working directly for the Lord helping to facilitate God Will – Hebrew satan – or satan is just the Beast of Revelation who opposes man via the world

So your claim is the word "satan-noun" is an prosecutor function who by defintion opposes man?
OK, so why in discussion does the prosecutor function oppose GOD and negate his claim on Job as fully perfect?

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

God then removes your hedge
Did satan lie? Did God have a hedge around Job?
Once that hedge was removed – was Job exposed to the World and all the crap it has to offer
What satan said is true of any man- Adam – humanity
It is easy to be a Christian when all is well – but to those who are BEHEADED because they refuse to deny Christ = FIRST FRUITS

Can't a prosecutor function oppose the judges opinion of a person on trial? Yes
But that makes the opposer of the judge no longer on the judge's side, he is also opposing the judges verdict on the human as well.
What satan said is true of any man- Adam – humanity
It is easy to be a Christian when all is well – but to those who are BEHEADED because they refuse to deny Christ = FIRST FRUITS
Why is it a sin for Hebrew satan to be completely honest with God?

Your claim is the cherub chata idea is flawed by the bulk of scripture, where is the verses of cherubs? Hardly any/ About 26 verses or so. None speak of cherubs that sinned.
Correct – precept upon precept, line upon line your satan doctrine is NOT supported by the bulk of scripture – history – or reality

A war in heaven could imply cherubs sinning, but you ignore the association.
Could of - would of - should of – is all wishful thinking on your part trying to justify your doctrine
Twist away

A cherub trying to get Eve to sin is sinning Himself, but you ignore this idea.
The serpent in the garden was a biological creature
The serpent in the garden was the Beast of Revelation – a biological creature (made with some matter)
The serpent has seed – satan’s seed – offspring – Beelzebub and his shedim – Lilith
Yopu argue that angles cannot have children – I agree with you

A cherub/devil trying to get Jesus to worship him is also a sin isn't it?
YES – THE DEVIL tempted Jesus – because Jesus was biology – and the Beast deceives the whole world
Jesus was tempted – as all men are tempted
BUT – Christ said – cannot tempt God
And it was over

The devil defined by Jesus as a father of lies,
YES – False prophets – alternative salvation plans from other gods – false god – idols – all created beings – all archon

A cherub thrown in the lake of fire, must have sinned, must it not?
Please quote your scripture saying a cherub was cast into the lake of fire
The beast – the devil – the satanas – and the false prophets + shoel

[Deleted]

Rp" Was faith understood by the Jews?
D" – YOU COULD NOT BE MORE INSULTING OR DISRESPECTFUL
R I refer to the majority of Jews, not a remnant of Jews.

D" Please explain to me why you doubt Elisha had faith?
R" Of course Elish had faith, so did Elijah and Moses, and a few others.
But there were 2 million Jews who were saved to enter the promised land and only 2, Caleb and Joshua were alive to enter the promised land. The others lacked faith. Moses was caused to see the land only, for he died for one big sin.

I gave you a quote, Jesus quoted, so obviously most Jews under Israel lacked faith in YHWH. Otherwise Jesus would not have quoted the verse I showed you.

So I am not insulting Jews in general, only showing you a greater reality.

RP"before they entered a biological body on day 6,
D" WHO says this? – Mr. honest Christian.
R" Well start writing your discussions more so I do not have to second guess your view?

D" Gen 6 says ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING ABOUT POSSESSION
King Solomon tells us – these are biological creatures
The serpent in the garden – was a biological creature
Enoch tells us they were too ugly – gross – for human women to accept them
Enoch tell us they had to change their form – to be more acceptable to human women
Gnostic John tells us the y had to change their form - to be more acceptable to human women

Changing form – is shape shifting – not possession
And shape shifting isn’t even shape shifting – it is a hypnotic suggestion planted in your head

The hypnotist tells you the onion is an apple – the onion did not change – your brain just sees it differently

Scripture tells us that they became the Sons of Anak – the seven tribes of the Amorite
R" All this is interesting Dave. And just where does Scripture speak of creating these biological creatures you speak of, these archons, must have been created somewhere, and recorded in the torah?
Where is the archon created? No where that I know of, only found in Gnostic writings, which Paul tells to Timothy to have nothing to do with Gnosis writings.

The only other beings created as cherubims, but some how Jews ignore the verse, assuming the "thou" refers to humans.

So I have to support the idea King Solomon used archons to build the temple for God? Why would God tolerate an unclean creature building His temple?

D"So you say – Adam was imperfect before he sinned – is this your claim?
Most Jews and Christians see Adam as sinless before he sinned
R" where did you get that idea? Adam was sinless and perfect, no trace of RA in him.

D"Is your satan god also an alien? What planet was he born on?
The Mormons say – Jehovah is an alien that lives on a planet in the constellation of Pleiades
Joseph Smith – Ellen White – Miller – all from the same time in history - all the same message
R" Now who is insulting and rude? You write false ideas directly. I do NOT do this.
Just because other sons of God live on other planets does not make them "aliens", why must you twist word meanings?

Rp" Is the cherub a "creature kind" or a "function of action" as you claim, a guardian?

D" Both – if your parents die – you end up with a different guardian – to cover and protect you
The King of Tyre – is the guardian that covers his kingdom and people with protection
Adam was told to tend and keep the garden - the covering guardian that protects
Two cherubs were made atop the Ark - the covering guardians that protect
Cherubs were painted in the temple walls - the covering guardian that protects

Cherubs were place at the entrance of the Garden to keep Adam out - the covering guardian that protects

The angels near to God’s throne are - the covering guardian that protects
R" OK several Bible texts show that says that "shamar means to guard"?
1) Adam was the guard the Garden
2) Cherubims were to guard the Garden
This is a function requiring an action.

However are humans and cherubims different created beings?

This question you need to answer, and show me Jews who also answer this question.

D" You read angel into the script
I just see Adam – who was perfect before he sinned – who was cherish by God
R" I see.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,

Who is this "thou" that was created than? cherub or man?

Question: I get it that "adam/humans" are commanded to "shamar"

I get it that "cherubims" are commanded to "shamar"

But what I don't get is you defining "cherub" as "human" as a word meaning "shamar" ?

Who is playing word games here? Since when does "cherub" mean "shamar", it doesn't.

D"YES CORRECT the passage is all about the King of Tyre
the poetry simile is about man – man – mankind – every man – any man humanity - agreed
R" The simile cannot only be about man, than it cannot be a simile?

Dave do you even understand what a simile is?

From age 16 I quote" Love is a river, a dam fed you some"

So this poem is only about two humans in love? NO, and I say NO again.

DO you even understand what a simile is?

The poem is also about a river blocked by a Dam.

This picture (river and dam) is completely different to the two humans in love, and at the same time completely similar to the two humans in love, we call this in poetry, a simile.

If you cannot fathom how a river is similar to love, I pity you.

A simile is when two different stories come together with parallels to each other.

Show me any Bible texts where a "cherub" is portrayed as a "human"? Than I would believe you.
You can't because both are very different, and yet very similar, it is a simile.

Angels and humans are very simile to each other, I write that word on purpose.
-------------------------------

D"Who formed the serpent – the hand of God did
Job 26:13 By his spirit <ruwach> he hath garnished <shiphrah> the heavens <shamayim>; his hand <yad> hath formed <chuwl> the crooked <bariyach> serpent <nachash>.

"chuwl" coming forth like from child birth.

Yes I agree the crooked serpent came forth while the medium garnished the heavens.

D"Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (H7307 - rûach) of his mouth.
The Host of heaven created by the Holy Spirit
R" why do you assume the "armies of heaven" also include humans?


D"SCRIPTURE PLEASE
The only creation story I can find about cherubs are the bronze ones made for the Ark
R" What about "thou was perfect int he day thou was created" Who is "thou" "cherub" or "human"?
To me it is writing about "cherub" who are "angels".

D"The word "ẓaba" usually designates an army,
R" It does? pardon? show me a Bible verse with "zaba" in it please?


D"Angels, man, (and you include aliens on other planets better than man) were all created on Day 1
R" No, you are assuming this is the one and only universe God ever created? Why do you assume that?
Yes it is our universe, but not the only universe God has created.

D"The HOST of heaven – angels, man, (your aliens- evidently) and the archon were all created Day 1
R" archon are never mentioned in Scripture as a created kind, the word is just a Greek word meaning ruler.


D"Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: ...15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
This was man.
R" I pity your dullness in reading similes. If you wish to disprove the simile, than show me that man is a cherub in other Scriptures, one verse is enough.

Humans are not cherubs, but both cherub and human do guard (shamar)

D"I quote scripture – Paul – Colossians chapter 1 + John 1:1-4
R" Dave an image cannot be an expression or form or itself, that is not an image, that is an exact copy of itself.

When a model is made of the Sydney Harbour bridge, we call the model an image. It looks like the real thing but is not the same as the real thing. If Jesus is an image of the Father, they cannot be the same expression, they cannot be of the same stuff.

D"GEE – why can’t man have a relationship with God?
R" GEE - why can't the SON have a relationship to His FATHER?


D"I absolutely reject evolution – no creature ever evolved into a different function
R" Agreed where did you get that idea? not from me?

D"Your god is small and selfish – if you claim that your god cannot love his creation unless it love him back
R" no I am saying the love is not completed.

Electricity loves all day providing, but is never a circuit loving until somebody is plugged into the power point.

D"It is called a Trinity – There is only One True God
R" When you say one true God are you saying one "el" or "one elohiym" because elohiym is plural el.

"El" means cardinally one strong authority.


D"Yes – and as we looked at each and every 23 + 49 verses – satan opposes man NOT God
R" If that is true, why does your prosecutor attorney negate God's declaration that Job is perfect?

Does your prosecutor know more sinning than God does? Or is your view of the attorney a myth?

D"Once that hedge was removed – was Job exposed to the World and all the crap it has to offer
R" OK why would a prosecuting attorney be interested in removing the hedge?

Why does God put a hedge around saved people anyhow, if God wants them tested?

Your views make no sense Dave.

D"Why is it a sin for Hebrew satan to be completely honest with God?
R" Brevity, where is your discussion?


D"Please quote your scripture saying a cherub was cast into the lake of fire
The beast – the devil – the satanas – and the false prophets
R" OH so only the Greek Satanas archons are thrown into the fire, called devils, shedim, but not angels.

OK who are angels, what are angels and what creature are they created from?

You cannot answer this question because the cherub is considered a function to guard that refers to humans.

Does not Rabbi Maimonides list cherubims as an order of angels?

Why do you disregard cherubims as angels?

Please provide a Jewish discussion on Greek Satanas as a shedim devil, not an angel, that is thrown in to the fire?

Shalom

[Dave]

R" Of course Elish had faith, so did Elijah and Moses, and a few others.
But there were 2 million Jews who were saved to enter the promised land and only 2, Caleb and Joshua were alive to enter the promised land. The others lacked faith. Moses was caused to see the land only, for he died for one big sin.
You are saying the Jews died because they had no faith - Moses died because he had no faith

So I am not insulting Jews in general, only showing you a greater reality.
There were many Jews that walked and talked with God in the ahl
They suffered for the Lord in ways you cannot imagine
But you say they did not know they’re own God – or understand His word
You say they are wrong for believing in One True God - you have 4 = 3 for the god head and 1 for evil
You deny that the nation of Israel today has any connection to prophesy
And you say they are wrong to believe in an eternal life – life lives

RP"before they entered a biological body on day 6,
D" WHO says this? – Mr. honest Christian.
R" Well start writing your discussions more so I do not have to second guess your view?
Only works if you pay attention

The Beast of Revelation appeared – by the left hand – fully formed and in a plurality
The Beast of revelation is a biological creature (different to man or angel)
The Beast of revelation = the serpent in the garden = a biological creature (different to man or angel)
The Beast of Revelation = the serpent – and man calls then devils and satanas
The bane elohiym are the Beast of revelation – the serpent race – devils and satanas
Gen 6 200 bane elohiym (who were already on/in earth since Gen 1:2) shapeshifted – changed their form – took on a body – to father demi-god Nephilim
The Flood of Noah was to separate them from us even more – now only 10% remain

Those 10% remaining Nephilim ½ breed demi-gods = post Flood Nephilim called Rephiem
In biological form the archon / bane elohiym / Nephilim / Rephiem can be killed mortally
When this happens – those spirits remain on earth – as the evil spirit we struggle against (Eph 6) archon / Principalities / Jinn

Archon are still invisible to us – just outside our ability to perceive are entities that are anything but human – and they have been manipulating this world from the outside for eons – David Ike
Some of the archon = the evil spirits we struggle against
The archon were here physically in a major way before the flood – after the flood the Rephiem gene pool remains (Jud 2:1-4) = Priest Kings for other gods = a genetic link for possession = the 13 families that rule the world today

Scripture tells us that they became the Sons of Anak – the seven tribes of the Amorite
R" All this is interesting Dave. And just where does Scripture speak of creating these biological creatures you speak of, these archons, must have been created somewhere, and recorded in the torah?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens … - The First Age – The Age of spirit only – God + the HOST of heaven = man + angels + whoever/whatever other life forms (angelic to us)

Gen 1:1 Then … God created … the earth. (physical creation – long before planet earth)
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a great fiery red dragon that had seven heads and ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.
Gen 1:2 Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep,

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: …
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Gen 1:4 …: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven:
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels (plurality / messengers) were cast out with him. = ARCHON

Where is the archon created? No where that I know of, only found in Gnostic writings,
YEP – the Apocryphon of Gnostic John = Rev 12:3 – Or Moses Gen 1:2

So I have to support the idea King Solomon used archons to build the temple for God? Why would God tolerate an unclean creature building His temple?
You do not see the irony? – the demons building the Temple of the Lord to help man overcome their influence
Who is in control? – Who is the master? Who bends the ra to good

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Gen 50:20 Yes, you yourselves planned evil against me. God planned it for good, in order to bring about what it is this day—to preserve the lives of many people.

Just because other sons of God live on other planets does not make them "aliens", why must you twist word meanings?
What does alien mean Robert – creatures that were born and live on other planets

Rp" Is the cherub a "creature kind" or a "function of action" as you claim, a guardian?
Cherubs were place at the entrance of the Garden to keep Adam out - the covering guardian that protects
As the Jewish commentary said on Ezk 28 – this proves function not created kind
Because if created kind – then this king is not trustworthy – why would God trust them to gurad the garden or His throne?

However are humans and cherubims different created beings?
DUH – man = man while angels = angels

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
Who is this "thou" that was created than? cherub or man?
Man – in all of scripture we are only told of one being to ever sinned and was cursed – Adam
Eve ate the fruit – Adam ate the fruit – Rom 5:12 – thought this man = all men are sinners

Question: I get it that "adam/humans" are commanded to "shamar"
I get it that "cherubims" are commanded to "shamar"
But what I don't get is you defining "cherub" as "human" as a word meaning "shamar" ?
You play simile / methphore word games all over the play – but Jewish poetry is too complex for you evidently

Show me any Bible texts where a "cherub" is portrayed as a "human"? Than I would believe you.
You can't because both are very different, and yet very similar, it is a simile.
Every Rabbi will give you Ezk 28 – you just say – I do not believe – you refuse to see – you reject Jewish theology – Roman theology was invented later by Rome and is more correct

-------------------------------

D"Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (H7307 - rûach) of his mouth.
The Host of heaven created by the Holy Spirit
R" why do you assume the "armies of heaven" also include humans?

Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you may be able to resist when the times are evil, and after you have done everything, to stand firm.
Eph 6:14 Stand firm then! Buckle the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness.
Eph 6:15 Strap up your feet in readiness with the Good News of shalom.
Eph 6:16 Above all, take up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Ti 2:1 Thou, therefore, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus,
2Ti 2:2 and the things that thou didst hear from me through many witnesses, these things be committing to stedfast men, who shall be sufficient also others to teach;
2Ti 2:3 thou, therefore, suffer evil as a good soldier of Jesus Christ;
2Ti 2:4 no one serving as a soldier did entangle himself with the affairs of life, that him who did enlist him he may please;
2Ti 2:5 and if also any one may strive, he is not crowned, except he may strive lawfully;
2Ti 2:6 the labouring husbandman it behoveth first of the fruits to partake;

Mainstream Judeo-Christianity teach – not to be satisfied with belief and the grave to await the First Resurrection – Elisha’s servant
Mainstream Judeo-Christianity teach to become a Born Again spirit filled witness for the Lord – be First Fruits
The HYMM = Onward Christian Soldiers - all based upon 2 Timothy

You deny all three teachings (1) Faith takes time (2) no spirit only grave (3) no Baptism of the Holt Spirit (4) no First Fruits – YOUR CHURCH – YOU – YOUR DOCTRINE = all preach against mainstream Judeo-Christian theology – and replace it with your obsession with Fallen Angels as gods and rulers

www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7907-host-of-heaven
HOST OF HEAVEN
Term occurring several times in the Bible, but not always with a definite meaning. The word "ẓaba" usually designates an army, and thus connotes a vast body of organized and officered men; it conveys, however, also the meaning of a numerous throng actually engaged in warfare.

D"The word "ẓaba" usually designates an army,
R" It does? pardon? show me a Bible verse with "zaba" in it please?
1- I quoted – The Jewish encyclopedia.
2- Your only response = the Jews are wrong
3- show me a Bible verse with "zaba" in it please? – the amount of academic effort you put into your post is seriously lacking – there is a difference between studying a subject objectively and just posing attitude

484 matches in 461 verse of the KJV+
485 matches in 462 verses of the HOT+

The KJV translates in the following manner: host (393x), war (41x), army (29x), battle (5x), service (5x), appointed time (3x), warfare (2x), soldiers (1x), company (1x), miscellaneous (5x).

a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically hardship, worship): - appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war (-fare).

D"Angels, man, (and you include aliens on other planets better than man) were all created on Day 1
R" No, you are assuming this is the one and only universe God ever created? Why do you assume that?
Yes it is our universe, but not the only universe God has created.
Now you are talking like a gnostic
Multi-vesrse – 10 dimensions / localities / levels / heavens
YES – life lives in these other dimensions / localities / heavens
YES – aliens / demons = intra-dimensional visitations
YES – 100% Jacques Valley – Passageway to Magnolia

What people think are UFOs that disappear / violate physics = intra-dimensional visitors – visitors from other realities – other localities – other heavens - as in evils spirit from hell – or aliens from Zeta Reticula- or shadow people from the invisible
YES – YES – YES = all archon

Why are they all archon – because the Beast is cast into all earth (Gen 1:1 = physicality)

D"The HOST of heaven – angels, man, (your aliens- evidently) and the archon were all created Day 1
R" archon are never mentioned in Scripture as a created kind, the word is just a Greek word meaning ruler.
Why do you deny the Beast of Revelation – that ancient serpent – that man call devils and satanas
Call them by any name you want – I will call them Phil from now own if it will help you realize our real struggle is against Principalities -

Eph 6:12 ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ἡμῖν ἡ πάλη πρὸς αἷμα καὶ σάρκα, ἀλλὰ πρὸς τὰς ἀρχάς, πρὸς τὰς ἐξουσίας, πρὸς τοὺς κοσμοκράτορας τοῦ σκότους τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου, πρὸς τὰ πνευματικὰ τῆς πονηρίας ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις.

τὰς ἀρχάς, - THE ARCHON

D"I quote scripture – Paul – Colossians chapter 1 + John 1:1-4
R" Dave an image cannot be an expression or form or itself, that is not an image, that is an exact copy of itself.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Why do you work so hard to discredit the word of God?

D"I absolutely reject evolution – no creature ever evolved into a different function
R" Agreed where did you get that idea? not from me?
A cherub that was created to serve and praise – decided by its own will to change its form and function to be the god of evil

D"It is called a Trinity – There is only One True God
R" When you say one true God are you saying one "el" or "one elohiym" because elohiym is plural el.

"El" means cardinally one strong authority.
E = mc2
God = his image Christ and His spirit
El = Elohiym
El = the father – Elohiym = the Trinity

D"Yes – and as we looked at each and every 23 + 49 verses – satan opposes man NOT God
R" If that is true, why does your prosecutor attorney negate God's declaration that Job is perfect?
Does your prosecutor know more sinning than God does? Or is your view of the attorney a myth?
Why do you deny the scripture of Zec 3
Hebrew satan is presented as the prosecutor in the judgment of Joshua
Every commentary on the planet agrees with this mainstream Judeo-Christian teaching
Why do you deny the scripture of Zec 3
Why do you need to bend scripture to support your satan doctrine?

D"Once that hedge was removed – was Job exposed to the World and all the crap it has to offer
R" OK why would a prosecuting attorney be interested in removing the hedge?
God asked Hebrew satan a question
Satan replied with an intelligent answer
God said – lets test it
Why is it a sin for Hebrew satan to be honest with God?

Why does God put a hedge around saved people anyhow, if God wants them tested?
From God we come into this world – to souljourn here – then we return for judgment
Job left the protection of God – souljourned here exposed like any man – then return to God for judgment
God came to earth as Christ to witness – then returned to the Father to Judge
Why do you deny the reality of man?
Why do you dent this basic Judeo-Christian teaching?
Answer – you deny man has a spirit – all we are is just biology like cows
You deny the spirit so you cannot see the spiritual
Why do you deny this basic teaching?

OK who are angels, what are angels and what creature are they created from?
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Now you deny angels are the host of heaven – maybe you need to define your terms

You cannot answer this question – just did, why do you deny that angels are a part of the host of heaven

Does not Rabbi Maimonides list cherubims as an order of angels?
YES – one type of 9 or 10
Why do you disregard cherubims as angels?
Again – there are a group of angels called cherub – and they are always guarding / protecting something

Why do you believe that the only type of angel that you say is a back stabbing tratior and cannot be trusted – but can be the trusted guardian of the throne of God – or the gateway to Eden

Please provide a Jewish discussion on Greek Satanas as a shedim devil, not an angel, that is thrown in to the fire?
What serious student you are Robert
No offense – but education in Australia must be very lacking

Please post Ellen White discussion about Elon Musk – his rocket – or his engines
Please post Ellen Whites discussion about Australian Submarines
Please post Ellen Whites discussion about solar minimums

Why would Jewish literature target a language that was not even invented yet?
Judaism is filled with devils – THE SERPENT - Belzeebub / shedim / Lillith / other-gods with all their demons and evil spirits
Why do you deny that Judaism has a full demonology paradigm?

Why do you replace everything Jewish – with Roman revisionism

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[Deleted]

D" You are saying the Jews died because they had no faith - Moses died because he had no faith
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Most are saved in moments of true faith as firebrands plucked from the fires of God.

Moses was the meekest person ever, died not seeing promised land because of one sin, not because he lacked faith.

D"Scripture tells us that they became the Sons of Anak – the seven tribes of the Amorite
R" Hmm? COuld these have been just giant humans, while most of us are midget humans?

They died because they were given 400 years to repent from their sinning.


D"YEP – the Apocryphon of Gnostic John = Rev 12:3 – Or Moses Gen 1:2
R" Hmm? no Hebrew word, only a Greek word, Dave, meaning ruler.
You have to supply me with archon word as a created being. Must have "bara" and "archon" in the one verse.

Can you do this? No.

D"You do not see the irony? – the demons building the Temple of the Lord to help man overcome their influence
Who is in control? – Who is the master? Who bends the ra to good
R" NO I don't see irony at all, God separates the clean from the unclean...God is particular, even David was not allowed to build the temple...

D" Gen 50:20
R" Yes God can use RA to make RA useful to God. Does not mean GOD approves of RA normally.

D"What does alien mean Robert – creatures that were born and live on other planets
R" Like we see on TV arrh no.

Why use masonic words to depict God's view? Let's call them unfallen preacful loving creatures.


D"As the Jewish commentary said on Ezk 28 – this proves function not created kind
Because if created kind – then this king is not trustworthy – why would God trust them to gurad the garden or His throne?
R" David had 300 loyal comrads with him in war, yet these man have free will, nobody bebrayed David? Why? Because they loved him? But love also comes with risk?

Some angels are disloyal and some angels are loyal? What is the problem Dave?

RP" However are humans and cherubims different created beings?
D" DUH – man = man while angels = angels
R" brevity is not a discussion Dave, your words make no sense

D"Man – in all of scripture we are only told of one being to ever sinned and was cursed – Adam
R" Man is not the only being to have ever sinned Dave....

thou was perfect until thou sinned.... who is this thou? cherub or human?

Dave why do Jews not read their prophets words as clearly as they are presenterd? How many Jews read Isiah 53?

Or Daniel? These passages are forbidden by Jews arn't they?

Just how much of the Bible is forbidden by Jews?

D"You play simile / methphore word games all over the play – but Jewish poetry is too complex for you evidently
R" really?

Show me a poem you wrote aged young Dave, with similes in it? Do you write poetry?

I have and did, I love writing complex poetry, with similes in it, as a child aged 16.

Show me your poems and I will discuss what a simile means to you.

You do not understand what a simile is nor how to recognize a simile.

"The trees of the field will clap their hands" Here is a Bible simile

Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a tree - Another simile

Ps 2:12 Kiss the SEED - Another simile

Ps 3:3 But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; - Another simile

Ps 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, - Another simile

D"Every Rabbi will give you Ezk 28 – you just say – I do not believe – you refuse to see – you reject Jewish theology
S" Show me how Jews know a simile when they see one? ANy discussion of this idea?
-----------------------------------


R" It does? pardon? show me a Bible verse with "zaba" in it please?
D" 1- I quoted – The Jewish encyclopedia.
2- Your only response = the Jews are wrong
3- show me a Bible verse with "zaba" in it please? – the amount of academic effort you put into your post is seriously lacking – there is a difference between studying a subject objectively and just posing attitude

484 matches in 461 verse of the KJV+
485 matches in 462 verses of the HOT+

The KJV translates in the following manner: host (393x), war (41x), army (29x), battle (5x), service (5x), appointed time (3x), warfare (2x), soldiers (1x), company (1x), miscellaneous (5x).

a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army); by implication a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically hardship, worship): - appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war (-fare).
R" seems to me you are referring to "host" ?

Ge 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens <shamayim> and the earth <'erets> were finished <kalah>, and all the host of them <tsaba'>.

"tsaba" in my software, NOT "zaba"

Nm) $F] ($F] Ts-BA) —
Army: [freq. 485] |kjv: host,
war, army, battle, service| {str:
6635}

Jeff Benner, "travelling home strong" not a hint of the letter "z"

Spelling is "YBA"

Not "ZBA" as Jews say.

Can't you be nice and offer a verse like I asked you too?
--------------------------


RP" Yes it is our universe, but not the only universe God has created.
D" Now you are talking like a gnostic

R" Obviously not, because you have only one universe, whereas I have many, how many? don't know


D" Eph 6:12 ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ἡμῖν ἡ πάλη πρὸς αἷμα καὶ σάρκα, ἀλλὰ πρὸς τὰς ἀρχάς, πρὸς τὰς ἐξουσίας, πρὸς τοὺς κοσμοκράτορας τοῦ σκότους τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου, πρὸς τὰ πνευματικὰ τῆς πονηρίας ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις.

τὰς ἀρχάς, - THE ARCHON
R" And now show me where these "τὰς ἀρχάς, - THE ARCHON" are created please?

D"Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Why do you work so hard to discredit the word of God?
R" I asked my wife, is an image exactly the same as the thing is portrays, she said no.

You twist word meanings Dave. A photocopied document is not an image, it is an exact copy.
Did the scribes make images of the torah they copied? No, they made exact copies.

And image looks like the thing it portrays but is NOT the same as the real thing it portrays.

Jesus is an image of the Father yes, in character and power, but not in rank.

However you say the two expressions are of the same Being, therefore the one expression has the same character, the same power and the same rank as the other. Hence cardinally one being. Wrong idea in my view. (Thus your view of the trinity is different to mine)


Love cannot function with cardinally one being. Where the love within elohiym? There is none.

Only elohiym can love beings of matter, but elohiym cannot love itself, because elohiym is ONE being.
What if elohiym was one being but three personalities of loving?

Are these any examples of this on earth? Yes. Marriage. Two personalities of loving but ONE being.

If you think married couples are two beings, you do not have a Hebrew marriage, you have a fallen marriage.

D"A cherub that was created to serve and praise – decided by its own will to change its form and function to be the god of evil
R" Possible if angels have free will?


D"El = Elohiym
R" No

Job 40:1 ¶ Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

WHOM are these than

YHWH ELOAH and SHADDAY?

Why three names?

Why didn't the text say "elohiym" answered Job saying? It doesn't.

What does "el shadday" mean?

Eloah already has "el" in the name?

Elohiym is plural of "el" is it not?


D"Hebrew satan is presented as the prosecutor in the judgment of Joshua
R" Really, the prosecutor is prosecuting the high priest for somebody elses sins? Why?

Not the function of a prosecutor Dave? Explain please.

The opposer is opposing salvation, the direct opposition of Jesus as salvation, and this simile Jesus chose as HIS salvation simile on earth. COme on Dave, get into similes please.

D"Why do you need to bend scripture to support your satan doctrine?
R" WHy do you invent role playing for a word that means accuse/oppose?

I have a verse for mischief....

You have no reason why the prosecutor is there? Where did sin /mischief come from Dave?

RP" OK why would a prosecuting attorney be interested in removing the hedge?
D" God asked Hebrew satan a question
Satan replied with an intelligent answer
God said – lets test it
Why is it a sin for Hebrew satan to be honest with God?
R" not answering my question

Why negate Gods declaration of Job?

That is a sin already to negate somebody divine.

RP"Why does God put a hedge around saved people anyhow, if God wants them tested?
D" From God we come into this world – to souljourn here – then we return for judgment
Job left the protection of God – souljourned here exposed like any man – then return to God for judgment
God came to earth as Christ to witness – then returned to the Father to Judge
Why do you deny the reality of man?
Why do you dent this basic Judeo-Christian teaching?
Answer – you deny man has a spirit – all we are is just biology like cows
You deny the spirit so you cannot see the spiritual
R" lots of blah blah here, you did not answer my question, its a fair question

Why would I test my wife daily if she still loves me with a slap on her face for example, some ra?

If all this is a sinless world, why the testing of love?

You cannot answer my question, can you?


D"Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

R "host" "tsaba" or "YBA" are not created "bara" as created creatures, the word means "army or group"

I asked who are the angels ? You did not answer my question.

The host is not identified here.

D"Again – there are a group of angels called cherub – and they are always guarding / protecting something
R" OK nice

And where do we find this type of angel class being "bara/created" Dave? Where is the verse for this?

So we know this class of angels is created as a kind of creature?

D"Why do you believe that the only type of angel that you say is a back stabbing tratior and cannot be trusted

R Some cherubs sin Dave, unloyal, but some cherubs do not sin, loyal and can be trusted.

RP"Please provide a Jewish discussion on Greek Satanas as a shedim devil, not an angel, that is thrown in to the fire?
D" What serious student you are Robert
No offense – but education in Australia must be very lacking

Please post Ellen White discussion about Elon Musk – his rocket – or his engines
R" SO there are no Jews writing about Greek Satanas as a being or archon, so you make up stuff?

D"Why would Jewish literature target a language that was not even invented yet?
R" correct, Jews write Hebrew only, not Greek. So why do you follow Greek ideas, but not Hebrew ideas like I do?

My question to you is the shedim is not spoke much, the hebrew oppose.accuser is.

The NT Greek must be translated back into Hebrew.

SO what do we do with Greek Satanas? We must translated this to hebrew satan,

But you ignore this and invent a brand new creature following a new religion called Gnosis.


D"Why do you replace everything Jewish – with Roman revisionism
R" Why do you replace everything Jewish – with GNOSTIC revisionism

SOmehow your thinking is flawed.... How about we study the Hebrew as it reads, and forget the majority of Jews who fail to read their own Hebrew correctly?
Shalom

[Dave]

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Yes Correct – Joshua is on trial – Hebrew satan is the prosecutor – but God gave Joshua a Divine pardon
100% Correct

D"YEP – the Apocryphon of Gnostic John = Rev 12:3 – Or Moses Gen 1:2
R" Hmm? no Hebrew word, only a Greek word, Dave, meaning ruler.
You have to supply me with archon word as a created being.
Must have "bara" and "archon" in the one verse.
If it says God bara by the right hand then it would not be from the Hand of mystery
The Beast appeared

You have to supply me with cherub word as a created being.
Must have "bara" and "cherub" in the one verse.
Can you do this?

First Century Gnostic texts say e Holy Spirit bara the First Archon
The bease came from the left hand - the hand of mysdtery and correction

The Hypostasis of the Archons - The Nag Hammadi Library
"Within limitless realms dwells incorruptibility. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.

Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" – which is, 'god of the blind'.


D"You do not see the irony? – the demons building the Temple of the Lord to help man overcome their influence
Who is in control? – Who is the master? Who bends the ra to good
R" NO I don't see irony at
Seriously – you do not see the Gospel in scriptute
Who is in control? – Who is the master? Who bends the ra to good
D" Gen 50:20
R" Yes God can use RA to make RA useful to God. Does not mean GOD approves of RA normally.
IT MEANS - Who is in control? – Who is the master? Who bends the ra to good

D"As the Jewish commentary said on Ezk 28 – this proves function not created kind
Because if created kind – then this king is not trustworthy – why would God trust them to gurad the garden or His throne?

Some angels are disloyal and some angels are loyal? What is the problem Dave?
Cherub are disloyal – so why does God use them to guard important things

RP" However are humans and cherubims different created beings?
D" DUH – man = man while angels = angels
R" brevity is not a discussion Dave, your words make no sense
I will write more slowly – man are men – and angels are angels
To be clear – men and not angels – and angels are not men

D"Man – in all of scripture we are only told of one being to ever sinned and was cursed – Adam
R" Man is not the only being to have ever sinned Dave....
thou was perfect until thou sinned.... who is this thou? cherub or human?
D"Man – in all of scripture we are only told of one being to ever sinned and was cursed – Adam
Dave why do Jews not read their prophets words as clearly as they are presenterd?
3 chapters and 83 verses in a row all about the King of Tyre – it is called context
You have failed to show me any supporting verses – 23 + 49 all disappoint you
It is called precept upon precept, line upon line
-----------------------------------

R" It does? pardon? show me a Bible verse with "zaba" in it please?
D" 1- I quoted – The Jewish encyclopedia.
2- Your only response = the Jews are wrong
R" seems to me you are referring to "host" ?
DUH

Feb 12, 2022 8:47:40 GMT -5 Dave said:

www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7907-host-of-heaven
HOST OF HEAVEN
Term occurring several times in the Bible, but not always with a definite meaning. The word "ẓaba" usually designates an army, and thus connotes a vast body of organized and officered men; it conveys, however, also the meaning of a numerous throng actually engaged in warfare.

R "The word "ẓaba" usually designates an army,

H6635 - צְבָאָה - From H6633; a mass of persons (or figurative things), especially regularly organized for war (an army);
H6633 – צָבָא - A primitive root; to mass (an army or servants):

You just choose to stumble over words – or you just do not bother to read what I post
Why do you and the SDA deny we are in God’s Army?
--------------------------

RP" Yes it is our universe, but not the only universe God has created.
D" Now you are talking like a gnostic
R" Obviously not, because you have only one universe
I have shared the concept of multidimensionality to you over and over
Why do you lie here – think you are making a point – and/or being serious or disrespectful

Jesus is an image of the Father yes, in character and power, but not in rank.
Christ is God – who came to earth as God incarnate = Jesus Christ
You deny the Trinity – you deny the One True God
Gen 1 God is the Creator
Col 1 Chirst is the Creator
How many creators do you have ?

D"A cherub that was created to serve and praise – decided by its own will to change its form and function to be the god of evil
R" Possible if angels have free will?
So you preach evolution - angels or man or animals can decide to change their assigned roles within creation

D"Hebrew satan is presented as the prosecutor in the judgment of Joshua
R" Really, the prosecutor is prosecuting the high priest for somebody elses sins? Why?
I am getting sick of your misrepresenting scripture – Christian
The prosecutor in Zec 3 is there to prosecute Joshua for Joshua’s sins
You have no reason why the prosecutor is there? Where did sin /mischief come from Dave?
The prosecutor in Zec 3 is there to prosecute Joshua for Joshua’s sins

Why would I test my wife daily if she still loves me with a slap on her face for example, some ra?
So serious – respectful – diligent student
Amazing depth of undestand - don;t even want to undestand - just attack / deny / and insult

D"Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
I asked who are the angels ? You did not answer my question.
The host is not identified here.
You ignorance of scripture is amazing – I do not take your serious

RP"Please provide a Jewish discussion on Greek Satanas as a shedim devil, not an angel, that is thrown in to the fire?
D" What serious student you are Robert
R" SO there are no Jews writing about Greek Satanas as a being or archon, so you make up stuff?
NO Robert there are no ancient Hebrew commentaries about the Greek vocabulary yet to be invented

D"Why would Jewish literature target a language that was not even invented yet?
R" correct, Jews write Hebrew only, not Greek. So why do you follow Greek ideas, but not Hebrew ideas like I do?
BECAUSE – Jesus Christ came to give us the Gosple and the Gnostic authors of the agl/NT wrote down His message
Gnostic John was given a vision – in Greek it is called an Apocryphon of John – in English it is call the Book of Revelation
This new Greek literature tells us about the Beast – who is tha ancient serpent – that we call devils and satanas

How about we study the Hebrew as it reads, and forget the majority of Jews who fail to read their own Hebrew correctly?
YES Robert your anti-sematic view are will documented on this forum

[Deleted]

D"Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus.
R" There is no Biblical account of the HS every creating on her own. She creates as a result of masculine directive, which is how Hebrew works, and GOD gave the Edenic Hebrew like language to Adam from heaven.

D"Cherub are disloyal – so why does God use them to guard important things
R" God does not use disloyal angels.

D"I will write more slowly – man are men – and angels are angels
To be clear – men and not angels – and angels are not men
R" Great so why do you make a cherub into a man, when it's clearly a simile.

This means both pictures are similar, but also different.

Hence the cherub sinned.

D"You have failed to show me any supporting verses – 23 + 49 all disappoint you
R" they do not disappoint me, they all show an opposer opposing.

D"I have shared the concept of multidimensionality to you over and over
Why do you lie here – think you are making a point – and/or being serious or disrespectful
R is a multidimensional universe, the same as multi-universes?

D"How many creators do you have ?
R" I don't know, maybe three, maybe one?

D"So you preach evolution - angels or man or animals can decide to change their assigned roles within creation
R" Can't Alex throw a tantrum and still be a parrot? This is evolution to you, not to me, it is simply God placing intelligence's in birds.

D"The prosecutor in Zec 3 is there to prosecute Joshua for Joshua’s sins


Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

R" Where does it say that? Filthy clothes maybe?

Joshua is a simile of Jesus, both were high priest, responsible for other's sins. The high priest had to be sinless.


D"BECAUSE – Jesus Christ came to give us the Gosple and the Gnostic authors of the agl/NT wrote down His message
R" If Paul wrote to Timothy to avoid Gnostic authors, how can you say the Gnostic authors were first? Obviously they came later, and defiled to true author's gospel, like Paul.
Shalom

[Dave]

R" There is no Biblical account of the HS every creating on her own. She creates as a result of masculine directive, which is how Hebrew works,

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created—in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, whether thrones or angelic powers or rulers or authorities. All was created through Him and for Him.

All created by Him for Him (Christ)

Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being.

All thing created by the WORD – which is God, The Spirit, and the Son

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens;

D"Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus.

The Archon were created by God/Christ by Him for Him
The Holy Spirit is the Creator because – TRINITY

God said – let there be - and there was (no evolution) - Right Hand – hand of instruction and salvation
The Archon – appeared – from the Left Hand – the hand of mystery and judgment

Mat 6:3 But when you do tzedakah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise is to his right, and the heart of the fool is to his left.
Ecc 10:3 Even as the fool walks along the way, his heart lacks sense and tells everyone what a fool he is.

Isa 45:6 so they may know, from the rising to the setting of the sun, that there is no one besides Me. I am Adonai—there is no other.
Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness. I make shalom and create calamity. I, Adonai, do all these things.

Rev 4:11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, For You created all things, and because of Your will they existed and were created!”

God is the Creator – Christ is the Creator – The HS is a Creator – through the WORD all things were created

D"Cherub are disloyal – so why does God use them to guard important things
R" God does not use disloyal angels.
Why do you deny the Gospel message given by Jesus Christ

Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one (Cherub) and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all (Cherub) because all sinned.
I thought you preach your satan took 1/3rd of all God’s angels – were these all the Cherub type – or are any angel not trustworthy?

D"I will write more slowly – man are men – and angels are angels
To be clear – men and not angels – and angels are not men
R" Great so why do you make a cherub into a man, when it's clearly a simile.

Why so you make the fiery serpents of Num 21 – seraphim angels of the Lord
Most see them as evil spirits

Michael is a warrior type angel – why can’t man be a warrior?

D"You have failed to show me any supporting verses – 23 + 49 all disappoint you
R" they do not disappoint me, they all show an opposer opposing.
Correct – opposing man as they are designed – Gen 3:15 satans seed – archon
NOT opposing God as in a Great Controversy between two gods in heaven

D"I have shared the concept of multidimensionality to you over and over
Why do you lie here – think you are making a point – and/or being serious or disrespectful
R is a multidimensional universe, the same as multi-universes?
Argue vocabulary – word games – just to be an ASS
You are not even close to being serious here – how can anyone take you seriously - Christian

D"How many creators do you have ?
R" I don't know, maybe three, maybe one?
I believe you and your acceptance of pagan multiple creators one for tov and one for ra
Everyone else has ONE TRUE CREATOR

D"So you preach evolution - angels or man or animals can decide to change their assigned roles within creation
R" Can't Alex throw a tantrum and still be a parrot? This is evolution to you, not to me, it is simply God placing intelligence's in birds.
But you say God’s beautiful angels – made of ethereal spirit – designed to serve and praise
became biological creatures that are ugly and gross – designed to hate and destroy
But you say God’s beautiful angels – made of ethereal spirit – became biologicl enough to father the Nephilim

D"The prosecutor in Zec 3 is there to prosecute Joshua for Joshua’s sins

D"BECAUSE – Jesus Christ came to give us the Gosple and the Gnostic authors of the agl/NT wrote down His message
R" If Paul wrote to Timothy to avoid Gnostic authors, how can you say the Gnostic authors were first? Obviously they came later, and defiled to true author's gospel, like Paul.

Why do you deny the Greek Gospel – why do you claim that men such as James, John, Paul, Phillip, or Thomas were all authors of heresy at the same time they wrote the agl/NT

What is gnostic according to you – most all of Hebrew theology and the writings of the agl/NT authors
Don’t you ever tire of attacking the source instead of discussing the content?

[Deleted]

D"All created by Him for Him (Christ)
R" correct. Jesus spoke, the HS did as required, using powers from the Father and making those powers flowing through the Medium (the HS). The Shadday did not create without the Father or the Son.


D"God said – let there be - and there was (no evolution) - Right Hand – hand of instruction and salvation
The Archon – appeared – from the Left Hand – the hand of mystery and judgment
R" not able to grasp the right hand left hand thing, my left hand is quite capable of doing things under my mind.

D"God is the Creator – Christ is the Creator – The HS is a Creator – through the WORD all things were created
R" NO

You misunderstand the role of love and the two Hebrew words for love.

The Most High is actually a provider, meaning of AB, not father as humans assume.

The Son is actually the "home head", the one who continues the love of the provider, not a biological son as we humans assume.

The mother is not a wife of the father, but a responder responding the the heavenly provider.

I do not make elohiym as humans understand them, but elohiym functions as love functions. Two Hebrew words for love, make three functional basic uncaused causes of love, family love" parental love one that provides, one that responds, and child like love, collective love.

Hence creative powers is a community effort, not by one expression alone, as you assume.

D"Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one (Cherub) and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all (Cherub) because all sinned.
I thought you preach your satan took 1/3rd of all God’s angels – were these all the Cherub type – or are any angel not trustworthy?
R" At last Dave makes discussions.

Dave you mis understand "chataah" is not "chata" but "sin-offering" When one cherub sinned (chata) there was no flow of chataah (sin-offering) because the flesh of the cherub was not changed.

The cherub who sinned sinned by themselves, they did not change their own flesh to make sinning easier, they simply decided to sin under free will, and many decided to return to God.


D"Why so you make the fiery serpents of Num 21 – seraphim angels of the Lord
Most see them as evil spirits

Michael is a warrior type angel – why can’t man be a warrior?
R" brevity is a problem with you, I do not follow.

saraph means to burn. Not a class of angel. No a creature, but a function of action.
saraph comes with verb and noun forms, all must mean to burn.

The burning snakes are saraph, as the Hebre implies. Moses did his best to make the simile real to humans on earth, he used firey snakes, rather than burning heavenly beings.


D"Correct – opposing man as they are designed – Gen 3:15 satans seed – archon
NOT opposing God as in a Great Controversy between two gods in heaven
R" NOT so Dave. You forget one detail.

Did the heavenly attorney negate God's declaration that Job was perfect?

If you say no, than you violate Scripture.

If you say yes, than the attorney is challenging God as a sinning angel would.

Scripture says whatever is noble and true and uplifting, think on these things.

Negating God is not noble and true and uplifting, therefore a sin to negate God.
Talking back to God is a sin.

Show me anyway where God uses a attorney to help him with judgement.

The Day of atonement is a good start, judging sins over a year from Israel, no attorney there.

The great day of judgement of the wicked in Rev 20 - 22, no attorney mentioned there.

Just where is your evidence?

D"Argue vocabulary – word games – just to be an ASS
R" It can't be a word game, if you originally did not like me saying angels and other unfallen beings were alive and well long before our universe for humans even existed.

You say all other dimensions came into being during day 1 of our created universe.
I say no to this idea.

I say GOD created angels and trillions of other unfallen sinless sons of God, billions and years before our universe was even created or considered. All these creatures have free will and enjoyed trillions of years of bliss without sin or sinning being a problem. Even the closest guarding angel loved GOD and was sinless for trillions of years.

However one day over a period of thousands of years, the closest guarding angel, (no name given) became to oppose God, and this is termed "missing God's love". This angel no longer support God's rules with faith, and God could not faithfully support the angel back, as the process of love providing and love responding, stopped, and slowly over time the pride and self emerged. Such a condition had to be created to be allowed to exist, because normally such a condition would cause the angel to cease to exist. Once the angel began to sin more and did not cease to exist, he thought He had become like God, and could continue sinning and living, despite his sinning, so longer had faith in God's rules and methods of love. He wanted to live by his own rules of self and selfishness.

So God banished this angel and his other angels of sinning to Earth, a rock in darkness, because that is what missing implies, absolute zero.

God created a universe of bliss around earth, so brand new creatures who have never seen sinning before can witness to that sinning and remain sinless despite the testing to sin, in order to vindicate God as faithful.

Sadly despite the couple receiving instructions about the sinning angels, and their reasons for living a sinless life, after many years of victory, the sinning angel came as a serpent to speak to Eve, and using truth presented a false report of God, beguiled Eve to sin.


D"You are not even close to being serious here
R" I write seriously? How about you detailing your views as much as I do?

D"I believe you and your acceptance of pagan multiple creators one for tov and one for ra

R Sinners cannot create. Only God creates. God even creates the RA so sinners can observe their sinning.
Sinners only spoil God's creation, they cannot create changes to God's creation.
However spoiling creation, does seem like a created change in your mind, but not in my mind.

D"But you say God’s beautiful angels – made of ethereal spirit – designed to serve and praise
became biological creatures that are ugly and gross – designed to hate and destroy
R" Is this not intelligence? Can't intelligence make decisions?

Can't Alex throw a tantrum and still be a parrot? documented as science studies.

If a creature is programmed to fill the earth and make changes to suit a niche, why do you consider this evolution? It's not, the DNA has instructions to make changes already in the code, shoudl they be required. If not required the gene expression is switched off. God placed all those instuctions there from the beginning.

Why can't you see that?

Evolution, meaning getting new instructions as a process over time, cannot exist, doesn't exist.

The information for change and adaption must be encoded from the beginning. This is how GOD created the creatures, to adapt and survive. No evolution is required.


D"What is gnostic according to you
R" good question.

Paul warned us to avoid gnosis in the early church to Timothy. You cannot deny this.

We would have to go through Paul's writings and see what he was preaching for and preaching against.

D"Don’t you ever tire of attacking the source instead of discussing the content?
R" Are you ready to discuss Paul's preaching against?, ie His content in the NT?

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I will ask you, is the Gnostic view based on works of the law, or faith in Jesus?

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

I ask you, does the Spirit come by works of the law, through gnosis , or by the hearing of faith?

1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

Can you carry a spirit into the next world? According to Paul, no.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,

Paul is continually speaking of amanuah in Jesus.

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen,

I will ask you, is the Gnostic view seeing your spirit as immortal, while Paul sees only GOD is immortal and we take nothing into the new life.

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of GNOSIS falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.
I am happy to discuss content of the gospel in Paul's writings.

Paul was defending the true gospel from a false gospel. He writes against Gnostic views, I feel.

Shalom

[Dave]

D"All created by Him for Him (Christ)
R" correct. Jesus spoke, the HS did as required,
Since you have multiple individual gods – do you deny Gen 1:1 God is the Creator

D"God said – let there be - and there was (no evolution) - Right Hand – hand of instruction and salvation
The Archon – appeared – from the Left Hand – the hand of mystery and judgment
R" not able to grasp the right hand left hand thing, my left hand is quite capable of doing things under my mind.
Correct = you only look at scripture out of context

Mat 6:3 But when you do tzedakah, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

This is a Hebrew expression =- spoken by a Hebrew (Jesus Christ) and spoken to a Jewish audience
But in 2022 Australian culture – you do not get it

An Australian talking about an Ankle Biter to a group of Australians – and everyone understand it about a child
Come to America and use the term – use the term in North Korea – use the term in Africa – will they get it?

If you come to a restaurant here and ask for an Avo- the answer will be – we do not sell cars
you only look at scripture out of context

D"God is the Creator – Christ is the Creator – The HS is a Creator – through the WORD all things were created
R" NO
Why do so brazenly deny scripture

Hence creative powers is a community effort, not by one expression alone, as you assume.
There is only One True Creator

Neh 9:6 You alone are Adonai.You made the heavens, even the highest heaven with all its array, the earth and everything on it, the seas and everything in them. You give life to them all, and the multitudes of heaven worship You.

D"Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one (Cherub) and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all (Cherub) because all sinned.
I thought you preach your satan took 1/3rd of all God’s angels – were these all the Cherub type – or are any angel not trustworthy?
R" At last Dave makes discussions.

The cherub who sinned sinned by themselves, they did not change their own
So where do the ugly biological shedim come from – is this yet another creation?

D"Why so you make the fiery serpents of Num 21 – seraphim angels of the Lord
Most see them as evil spirits

Guardians / cherubs must be an angel or a man – not both according to you
Therefore – seraphim angels have to be the flaming evil spirits of Num 21

Michael is a warrior type angel – why can’t man be a warrior?
R" brevity is a problem with you, I do not follow.
Either Michael is a warrior or man is – they both cannot be the same function according to you

saraph means to burn. Not a class of angel.
OH I SEE – you can argue that Nachmaodies says cherubs are a class/type of angel
But everything else he says about angels is a lie – because he is a Jew

D"Correct – opposing man as they are designed – Gen 3:15 satans seed – archon
NOT opposing God as in a Great Controversy between two gods in heaven

Did the heavenly attorney negate God's declaration that Job was perfect?
God asked a question
Hebrew satan responded with the truth about man
God said lets test that
Why is it a sin to be honest with God?

Show me anyway where God uses a attorney to help him with judgement.
Zec chapter 3

You say all other dimensions came into being during day 1 of our created universe.
I say no to this idea.
Correct – you have multiple creation events by multiple creators – so so you deny that God is absolute

I say GOD created angels and trillions of other unfallen sinless sons of God, billions and years before our universe was even created or considered.
1- why do you deny scripture
2- why is your made up metaphor more real than scripture
3- Now you have your Son’s of God (children of Seth) in heaven with God before Gen 1:1
4- Yet deny that man was created on Day 1 as scripture tells us

D"But you say God’s beautiful angels – made of ethereal spirit – designed to serve and praise
became biological creatures that are ugly and gross – designed to hate and destroy
R" Is this not intelligence? Can't intelligence make decisions?
Sure and the decision to change your form and function = evolution

D"What is gnostic according to you
R" good question.
According to you and Rome - Ellen White = Gnostic – outside of Roman approval

Paul warned us to avoid gnosis in the early church to Timothy. You cannot deny this.
We would have to go through Paul's writings and see what he was preaching for and preaching against.
D"Don’t you ever tire of attacking the source instead of discussing the content?
R" Are you ready to discuss Paul's preaching against?, ie His content in the NT?

So you think Paul is arguing to refuse the words of James, John, Paul, Phillip, and Thomas?
What was Paul talking about – what about Simon Magnus and all the other “Gnostic” crap you have brought up her to deny the words of the disciples
So you think Paul is arguing to refuse the words of James, John, Paul, Phillip, and Thomas?

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I will ask you, is the Gnostic view based on works of the law, or faith in Jesus?
DUH – Gnosticism is a call to become Born Again Spirit Filled Christians
DUH – Gnosticism is a call to not just believe in/on Christ – but to be a Christ
DUH – the Gnostic call is to become FIRST FRUITS

I ask you, does the Spirit come by works of the law, through gnosis , or by the hearing of faith?
The Comforter come to you by no worldly action by you – there is no special prayer – no special ritual – no special order – The Comforter comes to you as a gift to those God deems worthy

1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
We came into this world as spirit and we will leave this world as spirit

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,
Paul is continually speaking of amanuah in Jesus.
So why do you demand faith in satan to amanuah Jesus

[Deleted]

D"Since you have multiple individual gods
R" Do you and and wife consider yourself as one human being, with two personalities of loving?
Or do you consider yourself and your wife as multiple human beings, each loving as they feel to love anyway they wish, without due consideration of the other marriage partner?

D"This is a Hebrew expression =- spoken by a Hebrew (Jesus Christ) and spoken to a Jewish audience
But in 2022 Australian culture – you do not get it

An Australian talking about an Ankle Biter to a group of Australians – and everyone understand it about a child
Come to America and use the term – use the term in North Korea – use the term in Africa – will they get it?
R" Hebrew idiom. I get it. So how do you know what the meaning is if it's not explained the torah?

(You do NOT go to the Hebrew culture for answers). Surely GOD answers his own messages written in Hebrew?

RP"Hence creative powers is a community effort, not by one expression alone, as you assume.
D" There is only One True Creator
R" when you go ice-skating do you consider the needs of your family, or do you go alone and do ice-skating?


D"So where do the ugly biological shedim come from
R" That is my question to you?

Where do shedim come from?

My answer is shedim are nothing more than sinning angels, who choose to sin. They are not ugly either, unless they wish to appear that way.


D"Either Michael is a warrior or man is – they both cannot be the same function according to you

R Sure different creatures can have the same functions, you wanted me not to second guess you or misquote you, but you misquote me all the time?

Angels can "shamar" and man can "shamar"

But angels cannot be humans, we are different kinds, neither can angels have sex with humans, different kinds.

So your shedim having sex with humans in Gen 6 is a myth in my view.

By the way the OT first calls the devils, shedim, the NT Greek is a translation of the NT Hebrew, so I prefer to call the archons as shedim. Shedim is the NT original name for these devils.


D" OH I SEE – you can argue that Nachmaodies says cherubs are a class/type of angel
But everything else he says about angels is a lie – because he is a Jew
R" I respect him, just not all he says. Some creatures are made up on little inspired messages from God.


RP" Did the heavenly attorney negate God's declaration that Job was perfect?
D" God asked a question
Hebrew satan responded with the truth about man
God said lets test that
Why is it a sin to be honest with God?
R" Hmm? Again you did not answer my question. you ignore.

I would say these sentences present a false report. Hence you lied.

God did not say let's test my declaration.

God reacted to the accuser negating God's declaration.

QUESTION: Did the accuser negate God's declaration that Job was perfect?

Question: If the judge declares the client is not guilty, how can the attorney say anything more?

Obviously not an attorney? Obviously an accuser of the brethren. Funny Scripture in the NT says that.


RP" Show me anyway where God uses a attorney to help him with judgement.
D" Zec chapter 3

R" brevity again.

Zec 3:1 .....to resist GOD.
Zec 3:2 GOD rebuke the Accuser

Yep I do not read a single positive comment by the Accuser or by GOD to the accuser.

This passage is about the high priest day of atonement, where there are more details - you ignore this


D"Correct – you have multiple creation events by multiple creators – so so you deny that God is absolute
R" wrong again, you misquote me again.

It troubles you when I second guess you, but I write my discussions clearly...so you mock...you do not have to second guess my views, they are clear...

Sure the community created many universes, not to be considered as multiple creators...NO.

Elohiym is plural for el, and refers to the power within ONE divine FAMILY. Not multiple creators. Not multiple gods, otherwise you have no similes of marriage. You would have sinning among the gods, like the pagan view of Zeus is with all the multiple gods creating as they wish. The heavenly elohiym is NOT like that.


RP"R" Is this not intelligence? Can't intelligence make decisions?
D" Sure and the decision to change your form and function = evolution
R I though you don't like evolution? And I don't like evolution. SO why you do mock and invent a meaning none of us like?

Can't you discuss your view clearly, and discuss my view clearly without mixing us together in confusion?


RP"I will ask you, is the Gnostic view based on works of the law, or faith in Jesus?
D" DUH – Gnosticism is a call to become Born Again Spirit Filled Christians
DUH – Gnosticism is a call to not just believe in/on Christ – but to be a Christ
DUH – the Gnostic call is to become FIRST FRUITS
R" Again you did not answer my question. I will ask you again

I will ask you, is the Gnostic view based on works of the law, or faith in Jesus?

Your answer is either "works of the law" with discussion, or "faith in Jesus" with discussion.

YOur discusssion much be about one of these themes.

RP"I ask you, does the Spirit come by works of the law, through gnosis , or by the hearing of faith?
D" The Comforter come to you by no worldly action by you – there is no special prayer – no special ritual – no special order – The Comforter comes to you as a gift to those God deems worthy

R Again you did not answer my question. I will ask you again

"does the Spirit come by works of the law, through gnosis , or by the hearing of faith?

Your answer is either "by works of the law, through gnosis " with discussion ( ie a gift from God) , or "faith in Jesus" with discussion (ie God grants you the gift once you proclaim faith in Jesus).

YOur discusssion much be about one of these themes.

RP"1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
D "We came into this world as spirit and we will leave this world as spirit
R" Not what Paul says.

Man comes into the world as dust breathed on my the Father, via the HS as a medium. Once you die the powers of God end, and the dust falls to the ground as dust. Nothing remains of you. God however remembers you and you have records of your doings by angels who do record some things. However angels take no part on your salvation, that is entirely up to your faith in Jesus and Jesus faith in you.

D" So why do you demand faith in satan to amanuah Jesus
R" strange mock? I cannot stand talking about Satan, and your Greek Satanas. I have tried to get you to read the Hebrew correctly for over 1000 posts, but you are so fixated on archons, which are just fallen angels who sin, who function as shedim among humans.

I would rather we discuss faith in Jesus and His salvation.

SHalom

[Dave]

D"Since you have multiple individual gods
R" Do you and and wife consider yourself as one human being, with two personalities of loving?
Or do you consider yourself and your wife as multiple human beings
You and your wife are multiple people – DUH

According to you – you and your first wife are one
You and your second wife are just adulteres
(Jewish view – scriptural view)

D"This is a Hebrew expression =- spoken by a Hebrew (Jesus Christ) and spoken to a Jewish audience
But in 2022 Australian culture – you do not get it

An Australian talking about an Ankle Biter to a group of Australians – and everyone understand it about
(You do NOT go to the Hebrew culture for answers). Surely GOD answers his own messages written in Hebrew?
YES – it is called context – your argument is that there is no context from additional Hebrew writtings
According to you – we cannot tell what the Hebrew people though or believed through their own writtings
According to you 99.99% of all Hebrew writing is error – no truth in it
The only Hebrew writing that is OK – is the Roman approved of version
So your teaching about the Jews is only the Roman church version
I have tried to get you to look at what the Jews actually say about themselves
You deny it - mock it - says it is too Jewish - demand that it is all error
Therefore - you are not interested in the context

RP"Hence creative powers is a community effort, not by one expression alone, as you assume.
D" There is only One True Creator

Isa 44:6 Thus says Adonai, Israel’s King and his Redeemer, Adonai-Tzva’ot: “I am the first, and the last, and there is no God beside Me.

Deu 4:35 You were shown, so that you might know that Adonai is God—there is no other besides Him.

1Ki 8:60 May all the peoples of the earth know that Adonai, He is God, there is no other!

Isa 43:11 “I, I am Adonai—and there is no savior beside Me.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that has come into being.

RP"Hence creative powers is a community effort, not by one expression alone, as you assume.
D" There is only One True Creator
Your multiple gods and multiple creations is all man-made made up pagan doctrine

D"So where do the ugly biological shedim come from
R" That is my question to you? - Where do shedim come from?
DUH – during creation – the dragon – the Beast of revelation just appeared – filly formed and in a plurality
Why does scripture say – just appeared

Because it was not from the Right Hand – the Hand of instruction and salvation
Because the archon are from the Left Hand – the Hand of mystery and judgment

D"Either Michael is a warrior or man is – they both cannot be the same function according to you
R Sure different creatures can have the same functions, you wanted me not to second guess you or misquote you, but you misquote me all the time?

I say GOD created angels and trillions of other unfallen sinless sons of God, billions and years before our universe was even created or considered.

Multiple creation events!
OH and don't forget - ra was made by god at a leter date in response / in reaction to - your god of evil

D"Correct – you have multiple creation events by multiple creators – so so you deny that God is absolute
R" wrong again, you misquote me again.

D"God is the Creator – Christ is the Creator – The HS is a Creator – through the WORD all things were created
R" NO
RP"Hence creative powers is a community effort, not by one expression alone, as you assume.

Multiple creators –

D"How many creators do you have ?
R" I don't know, maybe three, maybe one?

Why do you deny scripture and claim God is less than absolute?

Angels can "shamar" and man can "shamar"
And Angels can be cherub but men can not be cherubs

But angels cannot be humans, = absolutely correct
Angels are anlegs – archin are archon – man is man – cows are cows
ZERO EVOLUTION

we are different kinds, neither can angels have sex with humans, different kinds.
Correct – this is why the Gen 6 account is all about the bane elohiym – not angels

So your shedim having sex with humans in Gen 6 is a myth in my view.
Shedim are not angels – King Solomon tells us that they are biological creatures – just like the serpent and the Beast

R Some cherubs sin Dave, unloyal, but some cherubs do not sin, loyal and can be trusted.
Then why are all men made sinners by one man
Why aren’t all cherubs made sinners by the sin of one cherub
Why does your god have different standards for different creatures?
I thought God’s moral laws are absolute according to you

By the way the OT first calls the devils, shedim, the NT Greek is a translation of the NT Hebrew, so I prefer to call the archons as shedim. Shedim is the NT original name for these devils.
I have told you before – we can call them Principalities (archon) as Paul does
We can call them Principalities as Luke does (archon)
We can call them Jinn as Islam does
We can call them shedim as the Jews do
I even offered to call them Phii – if it would help you understand
But you just play word games

Eph 6:12  For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,(shedim) against the powers, against the worldly forces of this darkness, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 
Eph 6:13  Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you may be able to resist when the times are evil, and after you have done everything, to stand firm. 
Eph 6:14  Stand firm then! Buckle the belt of truth around your waist,
I like it

Eph 6:12  For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,(Jinn)
I like it
Eph 6:12  For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,(Principalities)
I like it
Eph 6:12  For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, (Phil)
Whatever is reqiuided to satisfy your vocabulary game

The POINT =
Eph 6:12  For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,(shedim)
'There are biological creatures that are outside our field of view/vision - they are not angels
Outside our field of view - these are entities that are anything but human - that have been manipulating this world from the outside for eons - some people call them demonic (Christians) - some people call them demonic (Judeo-Christian) - some call them the serpent race (other-gods India/the Levant/South America -(google) The Rainbow Serpent or Rainbow Snake is a common deity often seen as a creator god, known by numerous names in different Australian Aboriginal languages by the many different Aboriginal peoples.) Islam calls them Jinn' - David Ike
Whatever is reqiuided to satisfy your vocabulary game

D" OH I SEE – you can argue that Nachmaodies says cherubs are a class/type of angel
But everything else he says about angels is a lie – because he is a Jew
R" I respect him, just not all he says. Some creatures are made up on little inspired messages from God.
If there is one error in his writings all of his witting must be error
This is your response to me when I post Jewish commentary
But for you – Ezekiel and Luke are perfectly acceptable – even tho they contain error
Double standard - your absolutes are not absolutes when they serve your cause

RP" Did the heavenly attorney negate God's declaration that Job was perfect?
D" God asked a question
Hebrew satan responded with the truth about man
God said lets test that
Why is it a sin to be honest with God?
R" Hmm? Again you did not answer my question. you ignore.
Not satan did not negate God statement – satan offered the truth about man
But the question God asked of satan =

Deu 8:2 … in order to humble you, to test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His mitzvot or not.
Hebrew satan says - All men are easy Christians – when times are good and easy

I would say these sentences present a false report.
Rom 5:12 So then, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, in the same way death spread to all men because all sinned.
Evidently – Hebrew satan was accurate and correct

Rom 3:10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous—no, not one.

Psa 14:2 Adonai looked down from heaven on the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They all turned aside, became corrupt. There is no one who does good—not even one.

QUESTION: Did the accuser negate God's declaration that Job was perfect?
Evidently – Hebrew satan was accurate and correct – and simply quoted scripture to God
Why is it a sin to quote scripture?
Why is it negating God’s Word
All men are sinners – Hebrew satan simply quotes scripture – correctly
I would say these sentences present a false report.
Why is it a sin to quote scripture?
Why is it a sin to be honest with God?

I would say these sentences present a false report
Why do you deny scripture in favor of your man-made Roman doctrine?

RP" Show me anyway where God uses a attorney to help him with judgement.
D" Zec chapter 3
R" brevity again.
Validated by srcipture itself - and every Jewish and mainstream commentary
Why do you argue against the Word of God?

Elohiym is plural for el, and refers to the power within ONE divine FAMILY. Not multiple creators. Not multiple gods,
Scripture says God created
Scripture says Christ created
Scripture says the HS created
If you deny there is only One True Creator - which one of your family members is your god?

D" Sure and the decision to change your form and function = evolution
R I though you don't like evolution? And I don't like evolution. SO why you do mock and invent a meaning none of us like?
Can't you discuss your view clearly, and discuss my view clearly without mixing us together in confusion?
Your good angels of beauty and light – turn into biological creatures that have children
Your good angels of beauty and light – turn into biological serpents and live as biological being crawling around on their bellies

I will ask you, is the Gnostic view based on works of the law, or faith in Jesus?
Your answer is either "works of the law" with discussion, or "faith in Jesus" with discussion.
Works of the Law mean nothing! There is zero chance you can ritual your way into heaven!
It is nothing that you do – there is no man-made ritual that you can repeat over and over that will get you into heaven.
All that is required for salvation = belief

RP"I ask you, does the Spirit come by works of the law, through gnosis , or by the hearing of faith?
D" The Comforter come to you by no worldly action by you – there is no special prayer – no special ritual – no special order – The Comforter comes to you as a gift to those God deems worthy
R Again you did not answer my question. I will ask you again
"does the Spirit come by works of the law, through gnosis , or by the hearing of faith?
Works of the Law mean nothing! There is zero chance you can ritual your way into heaven!
It is nothing that you do – there is no man-made ritual that you can repeat over and over that will get you into heaven.
All that is required for salvation = belief

RP"1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
D "We came into this world as spirit and we will leave this world as spirit
R" Not what Paul says.

Man comes into the world as dust breathed on my the Father, via the HS as a medium.
YEP – Gen 2:7 – man comes into this world as spirit

Ecc 12:7 Then the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Yep – man leaves this world as spirit

From God we came – soulljourn here – and to God we return

D" So why do you demand faith in satan to amanuah Jesus
R" strange mock? I cannot stand talking about Satan,
What else to you support – all you have done on this forum is elevate your satan to godhood

YES – I have two gods and two kings – whats wrong with that?

You belong to a religeous cult that requires your satan to be a god - so the Great Controverst between two gods can take place in heaven
I am a Gnostic Christian - Messanic Jew without the heritage
Hebrew satan is an angel of the Lord - in service to the Lord
Hebrew devils = Greek Beast of Revelation - is the origin of all the - serpents / shedim / archon / Jinn / demons / devils and satanas

I would rather we discuss faith in Jesus and His salvation.
Why does belief in your Hebrew satan as the god of evil required to have faith in salvation?
How can you possibly believe in your Great Controvesry between two gods in heaven - if you do not elevate your satan to godhood?