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Post by Dave on Aug 17, 2021 17:18:54 GMT -5
D"The Chaldeans have nothing to do with your current situation The Chaldeans are similes of Babylon, similes of powers of confusion, just as your forum is about pondering confusion. Sure Robert turn it into symbolism and you can make it say anything you wantI’ll stick to scriptureWho owns and runs Babylon? The Chaldeans do.You couldn’t be more wrong and it is obvious you never read my postSaudi Arabia = the Babylon and her wine (oil) Shite Islam = the Chaldeans of Iran Who sits atop all the oil SHITE ISLAMWho has the whole world drunk on its wine = Sunni Saudi ArabiaAnd thanks to President Trump - and the signing of the Abrahamic AccordsIseal is in economic control (access to the west and western techonolgy) and Military control (defense against the mutual enemy - Shita Islam from Iran) All the land for the Nile to the EuphratesI'll stick to scriptureR" Dave seriously up your game, you tell me too, since when does Gabriel be an undefined messenger? Is this Gabriel not an angel, written as aggelos. Doesn't the same term also apply to devil and his aggelos? G32 - ἄγγελος - a messenger a messenger from God = an angelG32 - ἄγγελος - a messenger a messenger from God as a manMat 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Mat 11:10 This is the one about whom it is written, ‘Behold, I send My messenger before You, who will prepare Your way before You. Mar 1:2 As Isaiah the prophet has written, “Behold, I send My messenger before You, who will prepare Your way. Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Who is this – was John the Baptist an angel of the Lord? G32 - ἄγγελος - a messenger a messenger from another manLuk 7:24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people Luk 7:24 And the messengers of John having gone away, The disciple John had angels? Or do you now suppose polysemy here, the term aggelos has different meaning in different sentences.? NOPE - just messenger A messenger from the Beast - a devil or demon / archonSeriously Dave, does Hebrew have polysemy or not?Seriously Robert – you and I have discussed several that doThe kione Greek is a translation Greek, not the local spoken Greek, Greek people did in those days? Hmmm? Am I right/ wrong? Bit like pidgin English, a method used to convert Hebrew to a language people could read, hence kione Greek. You do not document your sources – but your source is both right and wrongThere are 3 Greek languages. What are the three/four types of Greek columns and describe one characteristic of each? 1 Doric Columns. Of the three Classical orders, the Doric order is the earliest and the simplest. ... 2 Ionic Columns. The Ionic order derived its name from a coastal region of central Turkey called Ionia where many ancient Greek settlements were located. ... 3 Corinthian Columns. Koine Greek, also known as Alexandrian dialect, common Attic, Hellenistic or Biblical Greek, was the common supra-regional form of Greek spoken and written during the Hellenistic period, the Roman Empire and the early Byzantine Empire. The agl is a mixture between koine / iconic / and Corinthians John = 100% koine Greek – easy If you had a letter between two Hebrews of 180BC – it would have been in Egyptian / koine Greek which is the Greek as the base for the Coptic language Ionic Greek was the language of the eite – the power brokers – legal documents A letter from a leader in the Israel to a leader in another country was Ionic Greek Is it a different language – not really just more rules to make it tight and complicated? Parts of Luke and the Book of Hebrews Corinthian Greek is (Sparta – old – not much of interest) Therefore most of the agl was written in Koine Greek so that more would understand it But as someone who translates – parts are harder than other – why introduction from the higher languagesExample in English – you are reading English with a dictionary at your side then you read déjà vu, corpus delicti, ex parte, ex post facto, in loco parentis, or in pari delicto Either French colloquiums or Latin legalese But Dave freely admits aggelos has different meaning for different sentences. Than my friend it is impossible to read Kione Greek in the NT, without bias.No Dave admit that aggelos means messenger in all sentencesDave prefers to study Greek in Greek - it is more useful
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 4:51:58 GMT -5
D"No Dave admit that aggelos means messenger in all sentences
Dave prefers to study Greek in Greek - it is more useful
R" Really good answers Dave, really nice research, scholarly and well presented. Thanks for the post and the approach you took. I learnt something about the Chaldean's.
I can accept aggelos as messenger for all the sentences.
However to test your scholarship, I will look for cross references:-
I found only one verse:
Ac 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. Ex 14:19; Nu 20:16
Both exodus and numbers use malak, the meaning of aggelos meaning angel should be messenger.
SO I must congratulate you one being absolutely correct with the meaning of aggelos.
There is only one cherub verse in the NT
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims <cheroubim> of glory.
So the Greek word cheroubim is cherub. And the Greek word aggelos is malak.
Mal 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger <mal'ak>, Hebrew KJV
Mt 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger <aggelos> before thy face, Greek KJV
You have one up on me now Dave. Rev 12
So the devil had messengers with him, and Michael had messengers with him, both at war in heaven.
So we cannot determine who these messengers are?
I will pray about this and get back to you. Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 18, 2021 11:48:39 GMT -5
D"No Dave admit that aggelos means messenger in all sentences Dave prefers to study Greek in Greek - it is more useful
R" Really good answers Dave, really nice research, scholarly and well presented. Thanks for the post and the approach you took. I learnt something about the Chaldean's. I can accept aggelos as messenger for all the sentences.
So the devil had messengers with him, and Michael had messengers with him, both at war in heaven. So we cannot determine who these messengers are? Not from one word – nope – if we do it is only an asumption
Question is aggelos a polysemous word? NO – its root meaning = messenger Messengers from God = angels in English Messengers that are men are just = messengers in English Messengers from the Beast = archon in First Century Greek Question is aggelos a polysemous word? NO – but it is used polysemonly within sentences – in application
Question is archon a polysemouns word ? No – it always mean = first/chief but it is used polysemonly with sentences – in application first/chief in time first/chief in order first/chief in rank or position
One more Greek word study - not to prove me right and your wrong But simply to suggest that words are more flexible than you allow
Story – with my house we uses several “family specific words” that no one else understands Nicole could not pronounce some words correctly – and those slang words have stuck with us – (cute reminders of our past together) You used the word – ‘clackers’ – your English and I’m English – but I had to ask for a definition
Greek – there was the Turkey-ish version (Ionic) This would have been the language of the 7 Churches in Asia
The Doric version (Athens) Homer – older language
The Corinthian version (Sparta) Was the Epistles to Corinth written in Corinthian Greek? Never heard this – if it is – it isn’t much different Although – Corinthians is not as easy to translate as John
And the Koine Version = the Egyptian version – the base for Egyptian Coptic And most of the agl – because it is simple / common
We have 1000s of ancient Greek documents
Before the agl Georg Autenrieth. A Homeric Dictionary for Schools and Colleges. New York. Harper and Brothers. 1891. πόλεμος, πτόλεμος : fighting, war, battle.—π(τ)όλεμόνδε, into the fight, to the war, to the chaos, to the frey, struggle, conflict, argument,
Bailly, Anatole (1935) Le Grand Bailly: Dictionnaire grec-français, Paris: Hachette πόλεμος, πτόλεμος : fighting, war, battle, struggle, conflict, argument, debate, to press
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon (1889) πόλεμος, πτόλεμος : battle, fight, war, struggle, conflict, argument, to put an end to it, make peace, all in attic
2nd year Greek was spent translation the Anabasis by - Xenophon, (born c. 430 bce, Attica, Greece—died shortly before 350, Attica), Greek historian and philosopher whose numerous surviving works are valuable for their depiction of late Classical Greece.
I still have my copy on my desk – cool story King Darius is the King of Persia that was defeated by the Greek at the Battel of Marathon King Darius dies – and has 2 sons The oldest son Cyrus was in Greece’s studying war The younger son Xerxus was in Persia and took the throne So Cyrus hires 600 Greek Hoplites to go with him into Persian and take back the throne Cyrus and the Greeks win the war – but Cyrus is killed in the battel
Now these 600 Greeks have to get themselves out of Persian alive Xenephon – was a historian that went with them to record the journey Should be a movie!
In that story – there are many examples of two commanders WARING with one another about how to proceed the next day In that story – many of the hoplites wared with themselves over who to follow In the Odyssey – Homer wars with himself – an inner conflict
My Point is that from the bulk of Greek literature – war does not always mean – WWII
Now we go to the NT – which is a much smaller example of the Greek Language
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An New Testement Greek-English Lexicon (1940) πόλεμος : A.war, Il.1.61, etc. (the usual meaning in post-Homeric Greek); also, battle, fight, ib.226, etc.; even of single combat
(is that really true?)
New Testament - Strong's G4171 – polemos - From pelomai (to bustle) a war, a fight, a battle, a dispute, strife, quarrel-
My version says G4171 – πόλεμος - From πέλομαι pelomai (to bustle); warfare (literally or figuratively; a single encounter or a series): - battle, fight, war
My Point is that from the bulk of Greek literature – war does not always mean – WWII However – NT Greek is a much sub-set of the Greek language However – NT Greek Lexicons tend to bias away from – the inner struggle, a debate, or argument to focus upon War and WWII
No offense Robert – but you have grown up in a Roman Christendom Culture with Roman Christendom definitions and attitudes
The Roman Edit upon your ability to think objectively
It is called cognitive closure – we close on new information in the framework of what we know A Catholic priest, a Baptist Minister, a Presbyterian Pastor, and Jewish Rabbi will have 4 different opinions on every verse The Catholic sees it the way he was taught The Baptist sees it the way he was taught The Presbyterian sees it the way he was taught The Rabbi sees it the way he was taught
And you see it the way you were taught – you cannot help it
When I discovered this about myself – it was liberation And this is why I choose the term Gnostic Christian for myself – just to separate myself from any pre-established dogma – or man-made doctrine
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 13:52:45 GMT -5
I can understand your view Dave. I truly pray that GOD is merciful to you and you are are judged by the light you experience and know. This email from our Messanic Jewish Bibles for Yeshua came today:- I quote" There will only be one understanding of Scripture—the one that belongs to God alone. And at that time, we will know it fully (1 Corinthians 13:12).
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. {darkly: Gr. in a riddle}
God’s Kingdom is Yeshua’s Kingdom because they are One. They reign as One now and later, when we physically see His rule established over all nations of the world. That was a hard truth for the Jewish People to accept.Rob notes: These Messanic Jews are not viewing GOD with Jesus as an expression of GOD as the same person Dave? They seem to me to suggest the Father and the SON are two divine members, who are one in spirit and harmony of truth. Nevertheless, when Yeshua arrived in Israel 2,000 years ago, He embodied the Kingdom everywhere He went. Yeshua told the religious leaders, “The kingdom of God is in your midst” (Luke 17:21; see also Luke 11:20). The Kingdom of God had broken through heaven’s atmosphere in the person of Yeshua, but that didn’t match the traditional Jewish expectations of a victorious Jewish king conquering Roman oppression. Nevertheless, Yeshua continued doing what He came to do: calling people one by one out of their earthly darkness into His divine royal light. And we have a calling as well. We who have made Yeshua king over our lives have a wonderful opportunity to experience a small slice of the Kingdom of God right now by demonstrating to those around us what submitting to His rules and His authority will be like for eternity. Many will rebel, reject, deny, and hate us for living in this way because His ways are not like the ways of earthly kings and their followers.
The ways of Yeshua include:
The Ten Commandments—and the rest of the Bible; Blessing our enemies; Forgiving people, even seventy times seven times; Serving and honouring others, especially the poor, the widows, and the orphans; Stewarding everything we have for Kingdom pursuits, because everything we have belongs to Him anyway; Essentially loving God with all of our beings and loving our neighbors as ourselves.Rob notes" These Messanic Jews also support fully the Ten Commandments, as these other requirements. This is God’s kind of righteousness, which we as His subjects are to emulate.
Yeshua is not coming back to New York, Sydney, Cape Town, or London. The King of kings, the Righteous Branch from the line of King David will reign in Zion (Psalm 2:6), the New Jerusalem! (Zechariah 14:9,16)Rob notes" The Messanic Jews are correct that Jesus is bring back a new Zion. Also called the the New Jerusalem! (Zechariah 14:9,16) End quote" There is only one understanding of Scripture they say, yes but for now many of us have different angles of viewing Scripture because of the poetry similes in the Bible. But surely the HS is a tutor and guides us all into the same echad truth, so we all become of one accord. 1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy;A sign of the HS in your Church Assembly of Supporter of GOD is the gift of prophecy. 1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. Foremost is always the gift of love. 2Pe 1:19 ¶ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Jesus is our day star, that should rise in our hearts. 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation Re 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.SO in a Church Assembly of supporters the testimony of Jesus in the hearts of some are the spirit of prophecy. Such people are prophets who are kind, loving and do prophecy, but they always love and speak of Jesus. Ellen White was such a person, came on time during the 2300 evening and mornings when the earth is cleansed from darkness, in 1844. Lots of things happened in this time, even the rise of a false lady prophet Mary Baker who wrote as much as Ellen White did, and her false writings are the foundation of the United Nations to this day. D" And this is why I choose the term Gnostic Christian for myself – just to separate myself from any pre-established dogma – or man-made doctrineR" I admire your candor Dave. However since you love to dig and ponder things, have you read the little 90 page book of Ellen White called Steps to Christ? pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/eBooks/EGWhite/StepsToChrist.pdf We are admonished in Scripture to test the spirits, and so I have tested Ellen White use of words against Jeff Benner's use of words, using theme totally unknown to the SDA church, but known to the HS who influenced Ellen White to write Ancient Hebrew. spiritualsprings.org/ss-1061.htmI am not asking of you anything but to discover at least my view, without my rabbling and anti-view ways you think of me. I would hate to think you accuse me of causing you to wander from the path. At least read one book, above all books on your own, and consider what a true prophet might speak about. You are fearful that the science of salvation has a daily ritual? Not that I am aware of. Although I would love to read the Jewish prayer books and the prayers they learn and ask them some questions about their sincerity. I do not claim to know all things, and I admire what the Messanic Jews for Bibles emails bring to me each week. Shalom Dave, and enjoy your family and your walk in your Lord.
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Post by Dave on Aug 19, 2021 2:57:09 GMT -5
There will only be one understanding of Scripture—the one that belongs to God alone. And at that time, we will know it fully (1 Corinthians 13:12).
Correct – things only happened one way – there is only one true theology It begins with the 1% - and the ahl – and ends in the Book of Revelations
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. {darkly: Gr. in a riddle}
I love this verse – we are unable to see clearly now – why? – because we are in the flesh – all we can see is brutish
1st Book of Adam and Eve 8: 2 Then God the Lord said unto Adam, "When thou wast under subjection to Me, thou hadst a bright nature within thee, and for that reason couldst thou see things afar off. But after thy transgression thy bright nature was withdrawn from thee; and it was not left to thee to see things afar off, but only near at hand; after the ability of the flesh; for it is brutish."
but then face to face: now I know in part; Robert – you refer to this as a ‘light bulb moment’
but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This is what I am talking about – spirit to spirit – Paul was not just a believer – he gnosis – The disciples after the resurrection – Thomas – more than just believers - they gnosis
God’s Kingdom is Yeshua’s Kingdom because they are One. They reign as One now and later, when we physically see His rule established over all nations of the world. That was a hard truth for the Jewish People to accept.
Rob notes: These Messanic Jews are not viewing GOD with Jesus as an expression of GOD as the same person Dave? They seem to me to suggest the Father and the SON are two divine members
God’s Kingdom is Yeshua’s Kingdom because they are One. They reign as One
I can only see One True Creator – I have only One God This is such an issue – fundamental to Judaism / Christianity – there is “Only One true God!”
Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Deuteronomy 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD. [Note in Mark 12:28-34 how Jesus and a Jewish scribe he encountered understood this text.]
Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
2 Samuel 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Nehemiah 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
Psalm 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
Isaiah 37:16,20 — O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou has made heaven and earth. (20) Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.
Isaiah44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isaiah 45:21 — Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.
a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me. = God = Christ
Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
Mark 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
1 Corinthians 8:4-6 — As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, andthat there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Galatians 3:20 — Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Only One God - Only One True creator - No other gods beside Him
Nevertheless, when Yeshua arrived in Israel 2,000 years ago, He embodied the Kingdom everywhere He went. Yeshua told the religious leaders, “The kingdom of God is in your midst” (Luke 17:21; see also Luke 11:20). The Kingdom of God had broken through heaven’s atmosphere in the person of Yeshua,
The Gospel of Thomas (113) His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?" <Jesus said,> "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
YES – multidimensionality = all 10 dimensions of space – occupy the same space, just at a different energy level – a different frequency
The Treatise on the Resurrection What, then, is the resurrection? It is always the disclosure of those who have risen. For if you remember reading in the Gospel that Elijah appeared and Moses with him, do not think the resurrection is an illusion. It is no illusion, but it is truth! Indeed, it is more fitting to say the world is an illusion, rather than the resurrection which has come into being through our Lord the Savior, Jesus Christ.
This 3D reality is just a hologram built upon zillions of tiny little packets of E The ahl = the saga of the 1% vrs the 99% / God chosen people vrs the World The agl – the Gospel makes it spiritual – makes it personal
but that didn’t match the traditional Jewish expectations of a victorious Jewish king conquering Roman oppression. Correct – Jesus did not fulfill many of the prophesies of the Messiah No Christian can deny it – so they justify it by introducing another age – the age of the Gentile Christians say it is not the First Coming – it is the 2nd Coming
I believe – therefore I am a Christian Does this mean the Jews are lost and out of the loop? Scripture of the reMarriage of the Northern Kingdom to Judah – after the Divorce Scripture of Israel as a nation on the ground during – Ezk 38 / Ezk 47 – suggest they still play an important role in God’s Plan / God’s Will – it is called Armagedden Nevertheless, Yeshua continued doing what He came to do: calling people one by one out of their earthly darkness into His divine royal light. YEP = Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.” = witness And we have a calling as well. YEP = Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I set you apart—I appointed you prophet to the nations.” = witness We who have made Yeshua king over our lives have a wonderful opportunity to experience a small slice of the Kingdom of God right now by demonstrating to those around us what submitting to His rules and His authority will be like for eternity. YEP = Jer 1:5 witness = 24/7 always on – the way we dress – the way we talk – the way we live Our own personal parade for all to see The ways of Yeshua include: The Ten Commandments—and the rest of the Bible; Blessing our enemies; Forgiving people, even seventy times seven times; Serving and honouring others, especially the poor, the widows, and the orphans; Stewarding everything we have for Kingdom pursuits, because everything we have belongs to Him anyway; Essentially loving God with all of our beings and loving our neighbors as ourselves. Rob notes" These Messanic Jews also support fully the Ten Commandments, as these other requirements. Sure they do – who don’t? The POINT = this is a nice list Judaism / Christian / Gnostic = if you are living the Law – to love one another as He loved us – then our witness is on
What does love mean – hugs and kisses – send money – tolerate their behavior Robert = NO The only Love that matters is Jer 1:5 witness – bring another to the Lord = Fruit
There is only one understanding of Scripture they say, yes but for now many of us have different angles of viewing Scripture because of the poetry similes in the Bible. BINGO ROBERT – as soon as you start making metaphors or similes you corrupt For Centuries the word of God has spoken for itself – it self validates
But surely the HS is a tutor and guides us all into the same echad truth, so we all become of one accord. This must be so difficult for the SDA who deny the spirit
SO in a Church Assembly of supporters the testimony of Jesus in the hearts of some are the spirit of prophecy. Such people are prophets who are kind, loving and do prophecy, but they always love and speak of Jesus. Ellen White was such a person, came on time during the 2300 evening and mornings when the earth is cleansed from darkness, in 1844. Lots of things happened in this time,
2300 days = 6.4 years – or 12.8 years depending how you count So what happened in 1857?
D"And this is why I choose the term Gnostic Christian for myself – just to separate myself from any pre-established dogma – or man-made doctrine
R" I admire your candor Dave. However since you love to dig and ponder things, have you read the little 90 page book of Ellen White called Steps to Christ?
According to you – 1- she denies there is One True God 2- a created being is more powerful that the Creator because he single handedly changes all of God Tov Plan – against God’s Will Why would a Jew or Christian want to read Ellen White
I am not asking of you anything but to discover at least my view, without my rabbling and anti-view ways you think of me. Have you misrepresented her? If you have why? It is a sin to lie you say!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2021 13:43:48 GMT -5
D"Why would a Jew or Christian want to read Ellen White
R" Many Jews have. Same reason you ask me to read Gnostic writings, and I did.
(You presented the Gnostic writings in a positive light, didn't you?)
D" Have you misrepresented her? If you have why? It is a sin to lie you say!
R" no I have not misrepresented her? But are you really gullible to never study facts for yourself and make your own opinions? I have an open mind to read your Gnostic writings, I neither reject them nor accept them, but willing to see your view, even though I do not agree with your view, because it is not in harmony with the torah. But I have enough science in me to learn and understand you, and I ask you to do the same kind of learning as I have experienced and you asked me to. Much misrepresentation of learning depends upon undoing our bias and preconceived ideas.
D"2300 days = 6.4 years
R" Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Nu 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
God measures prophetic time using the day for a year principle, thus this Daniel prophecy equals 2,300 years of earth time.
Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Here the prophecy begins in time
Da 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Here the prophecy ends in time.
Re 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
Here is what William Miller experienced
Re 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. (KJV)
The great disappointment is written here, after 1844.
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D" The only Love that matters is Jer 1:5 witness
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations
R" so you are saying all supporters of GOD become prophets? hardly
D"YEP = Jer 1:5 witness = 24/7 always on – the way we dress – the way we talk – the way we live Our own personal parade for all to see
R" I agree, Dave. How about the way we talk to each other?
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
We are to test the spirits we receive. But notice even in John's day, way back in 60AD, the spirit of antichrist was present already in his day. What was this?
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
God talks to you when you connect to God. We test which spirit talks to us by the fruits of the spirit we live by, we must as you said Dave, be loving God's commandments as we love and are loved by God. If we walk contrary to the rules of love, our spirit is not with GOD.
1Jo 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
Bingo, John summarizes the verses above.
1Jo 4:14 ¶ And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
It says elohiym dwells in Jesus the Son of Elohiym, and Jesus in Elohiym. Specifically John mentions the Father and the Son by Name. Therefore I see one elohiym power, carried by two divine members. They are echad, just as marriage, the two become one.
The only verse that challenges your view Dave is this one of elohiym power.
Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Father Son and HS are all mentioned, and it says of whom the whole family in heaven is named.
This suggests to me, elohiym power is a divine family.
Not the Fred Coultier kind of all males, that is a pagan family. But the Genesis kind of family, Father, Mother and Son. All divine.
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Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
YHWH He is elohiym, none besides.
In all the verses you present, it says elohiym. Do you have a verse that says I am el, there is no other el, but me besides?
El is the cardinally one strong authority, elohiym is a term meaning family power, like judges, like Moses and his brother Aaron, like God who is family also.
But el, means only one authority. Do you have verses that say I am el, there is no other el but me?
Ge 14:18 of the most high God.= Father only.
Ge 17:1 I am the Almighty <Shadday> God <'el> = HS as Shadday only.
Ex 15:2 <y@shuw`ah>: he <zeh> is my God <'el>, = Yashuah only
We you study scripture this way you find there are three el members, but one elohiym power.
Shalom my friend. I always enjoy sharing Scripture with you. Have a great day and may you love ripple your family also.
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Post by Dave on Aug 19, 2021 15:47:21 GMT -5
D"Why would a Jew or Christian want to read Ellen White (You presented the Gnostic writings in a positive light, didn't you?) Yes – I said they validate the agl – and Christ – and help identify the reality of the archon
D" Have you misrepresented her? If you have why? It is a sin to lie you say! R" no I have not misrepresented her? Then she writes a pro-satan doctrine that validates Roman Theology
D"2300 days = 6.4 years R" Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. God measures prophetic time using the day for a year principle, thus this Daniel prophecy equals 2,300 years of earth time.
You argued and argues that a Hebrew yom = 24hrs – it can mean no other 6 days of creation = 6 24 hr days
But when I asked you about day 7 – you changed the topic and stopped answering Now here you are arguing against yourself Who wins these arguments – you or you
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D" The only Love that matters is Jer 1:5 witness R" so you are saying all supporters of GOD become prophets? hardly Definitions Robert – what is a prophet? There are 21 Bible Verses about a School Of Prophets – or a school for prophets Are you suggest that The ancient Jews could teach fortelling of the future?
D"YEP = Jer 1:5 witness = 24/7 always on – the way we dress – the way we talk – the way we live Our own personal parade for all to see
R" I agree, Dave. How about the way we talk to each other? Agreed – some peole want me to accept satan as a god figure – it will never happen
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Who is it that post bull shit here – then denys they posted it? Or admit they don’t even support their own post
We are to test the spirits we receive. But notice even in John's day, way back in 60AD, the spirit of antichrist was present already in his day. What was this? THE WORLD
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world OH – you posted your own answer
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2021 16:24:50 GMT -5
You argued and argues that a Hebrew yom = 24hrs – it can mean no other 6 days of creation = 6 24 hr days
R" Yes correct Dave. But can't an architect also use a time as a scale, 1 yom = 1 year, when making prophetic visions of the future? This means 1 cm = 1 metre of distance?
Scripture says so...
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Post by Dave on Aug 20, 2021 21:36:36 GMT -5
WOW Robert – why didn’t you bring this up when we were discussion the 6 days of Creation as opposed to the 7th day
Many post – you argued 1 yom = 24 hr – you would not consider any other possibility I Brought up 2 Peter 3:9 and Psa 90:4 – and still you would not budge from your Creation Institutes mythology - you stopped the discussion and changed the topic
Now – on a different topic =- you are all flexible with time
Either Hebrew yom = 24hrs only - or it doesn't How can you argue both positions within your same doctrine?
You claim consistency and your doctrine is the only answer – where – when – in what form?
I asked you – if you could explain your disingenuousness with me – you didn’t answer that question either
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Post by Dillon on Aug 20, 2021 22:14:33 GMT -5
Socrates 469BC-399BC
The cultivation of the soul, Developing our inner essence through our ability to reflect on things.
To seek answers to questions is fundamentally what human life is about.
Therefore this is what he did. He traveled about engaging in discussions and forcing arguments to form a crucible for the truth.
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Post by Dave on Aug 21, 2021 2:35:30 GMT -5
I know where you got this!
I like it!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2021 3:25:26 GMT -5
Nice gentlemen
The key to which is which is whether the vision is prophetic time or local time.
Let me explain:
Re 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
Here is a future prophecy, of the the first woes to come to all mankind.
5 months, is this literal 5 months or prophetic time?
Months is never mentioned in God's scale of time, so I suspect it's literal 5 months.
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Re 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. {leave out: Gr. cast out} 3 ¶ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
There is a big debate within SDA whether this is literal 42 months for the end of time, or part of prophetic time of the 2300 days, ie prophetic time??
I am tending towards Marion Berry theory, and ex SDA who died some years back, but if true, this is a literal 3 and half years of the end of time.
So sometimes in prophecy, especially using months, there is debate.
But for prophetic days, that is meant as years of local time.
Hope this helps.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 21, 2021 12:19:33 GMT -5
The key to which is which is whether the vision is prophetic time or local time. Let me explain:
You argue an absolute zero polysemy 24 yom when you need it to support your Creation Institute’s mythology And you argue that yom is polysemy and can mean anything you need it to justify other aspects of your doctrine
For me – yom = relativity – dependent upon the perspective of the viewer – 2 peter 3:9 Pas 90:4 "Because time is not linear" You argued against that as well - claimed you didn’t grasp the expression – time is not linear Now you argue – time is fixable when you want it to be
This is your doctrine – flip flop – argue whichever position you need to validate your theology
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 14:33:23 GMT -5
Arrh no Dave, Yom always means a day, 24 hours.
However when used in prophetic visions which God wants to tell us something , the time scale God uses is 1 yom = 1 year. The yom is still a day of time, but now it's prophetic time, so means a year in prophetic time.
For example here is a prophecy about to happen:
Re 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, {thyine: or, sweet} 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. {slaves: or, bodies} 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
The merchants of the world, the 10 kings who rule the earth, (not the politicans) all decide to run this new world order things, and the people get to accept, or bring in the new earth day, a climate thing that happens after COV19 thing, to bring in Sunday as world earth day, so the climate change problems go away. This first happens in the USA, and exactly 60 days later happens all around the world, according to the theory of faith by Marion Berry. When this happens, exactly one hour later in prophetic time, this is (15 days later), the one world order crashes significantly.
Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
My point is what time is this, local or prophetic? Some SDA debate it's part of the 2300 days/ years of prophecy, while some like me, who say "month" is not a prophetic timescale, say it's literal local time, so the one world order only lasts 42 literal months, or 3 and half years.
But here Dave we delve into prophecy where many of us have our own theories and understandings.
D"This is your doctrine – flip flop – argue whichever position you need to validate your theology
R" That is your opinion, but the prophecy timescale of 1 yom= 1 year, is in Scripture, and is used by GOD only for prophetic visions.
Shalom
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Post by Dave on Aug 22, 2021 15:07:08 GMT -5
Arrh no Dave, Yom always means a day, 24 hours. Arrh no Robert – time is not linear Time is dependent upon the perspective of the viewer
R" That is your opinion, but the prophecy timescale of 1 yom= 1 year, is in Scripture, and is used by GOD only for prophetic visions.
Time is dependent upon the perspective of the viewer King David said it in the ahl
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in Your sight are like a day just passing by, or like a watch in the night.
Time is dependent upon the perspective of the viewer in the agl Disciple Peter - author of the agl and 'more' quotes King David in the agl
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, loved ones, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day.
Time is dependent upon the perspective of the viewer in reality Romans 1:19 / Psa 19:2 - God's creation is obvious
Albert Einstein: The theory of General Relativity – 1905 Albert Einstein: The Special Theory of Relativity – 1915
You preach yom = zero polysemy and must = 24hrs – only for the first 6 days of creation But for Day 7 = yom can mean anything you want it to be And the only reason you do it – is to defend the Creation Institutes mythology Man-made doctrine trumps scripture Flip flop theology – wishy washy – not constant with 2 Peter 3:8 or Psa 90:4 Not consistent with Paul’s comments about Day 7
I just let scripture speak without modification Time is not linear - Time is dependent upon the perspective of the viewer Only scripture validates scripture
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